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I'm all for giving the boot to anyone who knowingly made false claims about WMDs in Iraq.

Ultimately, however, the responsibility rests with the Commander-In-Chief.

Like a CEO or the captain of a ship, it should be his posterior that gets put through the ringer first. He made the call.


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I don't understand your post.

Who knowingly made false claims about WMDs in Iraq?

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
I don't understand your post.

Who knowingly made false claims about WMDs in Iraq?

I believe that Bush and Cheney both knew there were no WMDs in Iraq before we invaded. Obviously, they would not have been the only people with such knowledge.


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Originally Posted by Krazy71
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
I don't understand your post.

Who knowingly made false claims about WMDs in Iraq?

I believe that Bush and Cheney both knew there were no WMDs in Iraq before we invaded. Obviously, they would not have been the only people with such knowledge.

I know that is what you believe.

But, it has no bases in fact.

Please, stick w/ me here...The ACTUAL LAW that was passed by congress and signed by the President had many reasons for going to war, only a few of them even mentioned WMD, and NO WHERE in this law did it give as a reason for going to war the reason that Iraq had large stockpiles of modern WMD.

Please read IT.

You will see that congress thought OTHER reasons were sufficient enough to go to war over.


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Got to love this. Talk about good sportsmanship. Both Obama and McCain have agreed to work together to fix what is wrong in US. They both seem to be to class act guys. Obama especially because I love the way her asked Hillary to be Secretary of State. He may not have the experience they do but he is not above asking for their help in areas where he is weak. I think he will do a fine job. JMO

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081117/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_mccain


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According to Mrs. W I am now Delightful in GA. LOL \:\)
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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
LOL What record is that, GG?

The one I cited on previous page.

Quote
Quote
Can you provide some supporting evidence for that statement?

Is there a specific clause that was written in the Authorization for use of Military Force against Iraq that you are interested in?

Not the authorization agreement. I was replying to your statement:

Quote
Furthermore, every one of those clauses that did mention WMD, were fully supported by post war intelligence.

I am asking you how you see that the post war intelligence report (which you cited) supports all points of the Authorization agreement? Have you read the post war intelligence report? Can you tell me how these conclusions support your position, that intelligence was not manipulated or twisted to suit Bush's objectives, when the report says the exact opposite?

Quote
-- Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa'ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa'ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.
-- Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.

-- Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products.

-- Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq's chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community's uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.

-- The Secretary of Defense's statement that the Iraqi government operated underground WMD facilities that were not vulnerable to conventional airstrikes because they were underground and deeply buried was not substantiated by available intelligence information.

-- The Intelligence Community did not confirm that Muhammad Atta met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in 2001 as the Vice President repeatedly claimed.

Or maybe have a read here:

LINK

AGG


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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Please, stick w/ me here...The ACTUAL LAW that was passed by congress and signed by the President had many reasons for going to war, only a few of them even mentioned WMD, and NO WHERE in this law did it give as a reason for going to war the reason that Iraq had large stockpiles of modern WMD.

Please read IT.

Well, if you read your link, you'll see that it's full of references to Iraq's stockpiles of WMD's. None of those were found, and no programs were found to exist.

AGG


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Not the authorization agreement. I was replying to your statement:

Yes, well that was what I was refering to.

The clauses in it that referred to WMD were supported by the intelligence.

Quote
I am asking you how you see that the post war intelligence report (which you cited) supports all points of the Authorization agreement? Have you read the post war intelligence report? Can you tell me how these conclusions support your position, that intelligence was no manipulated or twisted to suit Bush's objectives, when the report says the exact opposite?

These are two separate issues.

The Authorization for use of Military Force Against Iraq laid out the reasons for going to war.

Those reasons/clauses had ZERO to do w/ what the President or his administration said.

The clauses that spoke about WMD were supported by post war intelligence, therefore the President couldn't have "twisted it".

























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As to the few examples you gave from the Committee on Intelligence... they don't really bother me. The committe mostly found that the statements he and his administration made were supported by intelligence.

The President may have trusted the intelligence more than it was worthy of, and he may have used it to garner support for the war here and abroad, but since he and Congress considered military actions necessary and LEGAL, I'm ok w/ it.




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Well, if you read your link, you'll see that it's full of references to Iraq's stockpiles of WMD's. None of those were found, and no programs were found to exist.

Please be specific. Pick a clause and let's look at it.








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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
These are two separate issues.

The Authorization for use of Military Force Against Iraq laid out the reasons for going to war.

Those reasons/clauses had ZERO to do w/ what the President or his administration said.

The clauses that spoke about WMD were supported by post war intelligence, therefore the President couldn't have "twisted it".


The intelligence was inadequate at best. The cornerstone for the claims that Sadam possessed weapons of mass destruction wasn't even collected by the United States, it was gathered by the German intelligence agency. To make matters worse, even though we never actually spoke to the source directly, it was presented as fact the US senate and the UN.

Source of Iraq WMD intelligence tells his story

Sorry, if I were going to send American men and women into battle, I would have at least spoken directly to the source before claiming it to be fact. Not only that, but the Germans didn't even believe this guy's claims and President Bush still used it to justify the war. It fairly easy to conclude that either he had ulterior motives for going to war or he was just plain arrogant. Either way, I can't wait for his administration to end and the war to be over so we can finally get to the truth behind this whole mess.

Want2Stay


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The cornerstone for the claims that Sadam possessed weapons of mass destruction wasn't even collected by the United States, it was gathered by the German intelligence agency.

Once again, the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq NEVER said Iraq had stockpiles of modern WMD.

If GWB sited German intelligence to garner public suport, after he and congress agreed that military force needed to be used against Saddam, then I think he did the right thing.

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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Well, if you read your link, you'll see that it's full of references to Iraq's stockpiles of WMD's. None of those were found, and no programs were found to exist.

Please be specific. Pick a clause and let's look at it.

How about these?

Quote
Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had
an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was
much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence
reporting had previously indicated
;

Quote
Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security
of the United States and international peace and security in
the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable
breach of its international obligations by, among other things,
continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and
biological weapons capability
, actively seeking a nuclear weapons
capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations

Both of these were disproven by the post war intelligence report, stating unequivocally that all intelligence that ran counter to these wrong assertions was ignored by Bush.

AGG



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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
The clauses that spoke about WMD were supported by post war intelligence, therefore the President couldn't have "twisted it".

You can keep believing this all you want, but your own links clearly contradict this position.

AGG


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Quote
Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had
an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was
much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence
reporting had previously indicated;

Notice the useage of the verb HAD?

It does not claim that Iraq has WMD NOW. As in 2002, now.

The Duelfer Report said 53 chemical weapons were found initially.

Quote
"Beginning in May 2004, ISG recovered a series of chemical weapons from Coalition military units and other sources. A total of 53 munitions have been recovered."

LINK

Later 500 chemical weapons were found.

LINK

W/ regards to having biological and nuclear weapons, it only mentions having PROGRAMS for them.

Also from the Duelfer Report:

Quote
"Initially, Saddam chose to conceal his nuclear program in its entirety, as he did with Iraq's BW [Biological Warfare] program. Aggressive UN inspections after Desert Storm forced Saddam to admit the existence of the program and destroy or surrender components of the program. In the wake of Desert Storm, Iraq took steps to conceal key elements of its program and preserve what it could of the professional capabilities of its nuclear scientific community."

At one time he HAD them. And we also know he had concealed them.






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Originally Posted by AGoodGuy
Originally Posted by Marshmallow
The clauses that spoke about WMD were supported by post war intelligence, therefore the President couldn't have "twisted it".

You can keep believing this all you want, but your own links clearly contradict this position.

AGG

See above post.

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Marsh...now you really should stop confusing people with the facts.

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The bottom line is that there was no good reason to go into Iraq, and the blood of every US troop who has been injured or killed is on the hands of every politician who supported this war, especially the President.


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Originally Posted by Marshmallow
Quote
Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program,

Notice the useage of the verb HAD?

And you said earlier:

Quote
NO WHERE in this law did it give as a reason for going to war the reason that Iraq had large stockpiles of modern WMD.

Notice your usage of the verb HAD? As you can see, your assertion that the authorization bill did not mention that Iraq HAD large stockpiles of WMD is wrong.

AGG


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Originally Posted by Krazy71
The bottom line is that there was no good reason to go into Iraq, and the blood of every US troop who has been injured or killed is on the hands of every politician who supported this war, especially the President.

Absolutely correct. One more reason that McCain lost the election is that he, like many other politicians, bought Bush's lies hook line and sinker.

AGG


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