Not the best of moods right now. It's one of those my-emotional-needs-are-being-neglected times. H wouldn't make love with me this morning. (opposite work schedules, no such thing as making love before the witching hour any more) And I did the weirdest thing for my depressed mood--I gave him a blow-job. Second morning in a row.<P>Now why on earth did I do that? Low self esteem? Hmm...nah. A gesture of total giving? Perhaps. But I suppose it's not REALLY total. Though I enjoy pleasing him I now feel resentment. <P>Where's the reciprocation, the mutual pleasure? I'll tell you where it is--buried in HIS resentment. Our continued inability to resolve topics to the enthusiastic agreement of both frustrates him so much that he's figuratively walked away from the negotiating table, giving up and then telling me there's nothing wrong. So foreign to me, like here, a gift! for you, but it was given at such a cost I don't even feel like touching you now. Now please shut up. <P>Is he smart enough to know by giving up, it hurts me so much that I made him feel THAT bad, that he gets everything he wanted and MORE...but at MY expense? <P>I'm sure all of you who are experiencing your own confused and hurting times will agree...the pain can be described as a living, breathing entity swirling around us, threatening to take control of all. Ugh! <P>I don't want him to feel controlled by me and hen-pecked. He hates that. I've made a noble effort to control my temper, and successfully this past week. If I dissolve into tears, I've left the room; he hates it when I cry. <P>I feel like I've given up so much of myself already that I shouldn't have a body shell left to even house this pain any more!<P>What's left. Do I just give up too? Pretend everything's all right and never voice concerns? Continue to feel like I'm not allowed to be happy and secure in this relationship? Care less, love less, and then I won't get hurt? I think he'd be happier that way.<P>Love less...what an odd concept to be lurking around in a marriage.<P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<BR>

Hi, Laura, I've been looking for you! I'm sorry to hear this. I had been hoping so that no lucks meant things were going well. And after his post not long ago, I thought that maybe he was REALLY listening. Seemed like he wanted to anyway.<P>Now, you know you can't give up. You guys really do love each other. But you can't keep going like this until the resentment and frustration piles so high in both of you that you stop caring 'cause it hurts too much.<P>Man, I'm trying to think of advice, but my brain's shut down today. Do you really think there's a little bit of manipulation going on here? You know him. Can you think of a way around it? I believe in it, but POJA can be tough when the views are total opposites. Sometimes there's NOT a mutually gratifying solution, at least I don't think so. But lots of other people seem to do ok at it.<P>My grandma had a different view (50 years of marriage). She said marriage was compromise, but compromise was rarely 50/50. Sometimes she gives 100%, sometimes he gives 100% and sometimes they meet anywhere in between. If you really work at it, it will balance out. You have to base it on the issue and who it means the most to. I guess what I'm saying is....would he be more responsive and less frustrated handling things THAT way. Would you? I mean is everything something that you both feel VERY strongly about so that it's impossible to say "This doesn't bother me THAT much and it's important to you, so let's do it your way" and vice versa for him.<BR>I mean, it could be less frustrating if you both approach things from that direction and you both KNOW that the other will reciprocate when the time comes. Not patronizing, just plain ol' give and take, and care to insure that the other's feelings don't get stepped on.<P>It's a little different than giving in out of frustration, 'cause it's giving out of love and that shouldn't cause too much resentment. It worked for H and I for years until Sweetie, but hey!<P>I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Hang in there. You've got to get a breakthrough soon. It will happen, slowly but surely. I can feel it.<P>Let me know how you're doing.<P>Lori

HI Lucks,<BR>Sorry to read this post. Where is the post from your H? I must have missed it while i was gone? <BR>Are you being overly sensitive? Just another thing to consider...being turned down two mornings in a row would be much fun, but it surely is not a huge deal. You are so right to look deeper into why you respoded in a way that now makes you feel uncomfortable. Maybe you are just too willing to try to please. <BR>This may be more of a female thing then male-and something many of us are unaware of doing?<BR>More later, need to work!! <BR>I am so sorry I missed you on our trip. The timing turned out all wrong for us. In the days there, I was rather tied up in class and lecture and could not even find a phone the first day. And I did not have a phone number to reach you at for evenings. We are going back in a few months, so I will plan better next time!! <BR>(((hugs))) cl

So..I wouldnt make love to you? This is amazing. Lets examine this,shall we. I took you out to dinner then to blockbuster where you picked out the movie that we would watch together. We come home, tuck the kids in, and put the movie on. You fall asleep, I watch the movie you wanted to see. When you finally wake up again, its 2am. I try to talk to you but you are in a fog. I give you time to get your wits about you and you sign online. Later, we get into a convo about our social lives. You tell me that since I play pool 2 nights a week after work, carefully following your restrictions about not having any women there, that you want to go out dancing on nights that I work. When I talk about my feelings about that and say that I dont think its fair of you to expect me to respect your restrictions while you dance with other men, you not only tell me that Im wrong, but tell me how it makes you feel bad for me to even express how I feel. So, I guess I just dont tell you. After you make me withdraw and give in, telling you that I wont play any pool with the guys and you can go out with whomever you want, you tell me you want me to make love to you. I really wasnt in the mood to do that just then, I was hurting and had already been told you didnt even want to hear about it. You said again that you wanted to make love, so again I give in. Since you are on your period, I asked if we had a towel handy. You got up and got a towel, leaving it on the side of the bed. You came back to bed with your panties on. I touced you, kissed you and fondled you. You decided you were going down on me and did. I thought you would do that for a bit, then we'd go on with other things, as usual. But, instead, you give it all your worth and when you're done, you leave. You ask now where the reciprocation was? First off, you're on your period, and secondly you LEFT. You think somehow this was all done to hurt you? I'd try to tell you how it hurt me, but again, you've already let me know you dont want to hear, or know about my hurt. I guess I'll deal with it myself, again.

Lucks and TC - would you guys please talk to each other????!!!! You wanna get to the same destination, how about trying to take the same path? Make a new one if you have to.<P>Where there's a will, there's a way and you guys love each other enough to find the way, otherwise it wouldn't hurt so much. You gotta start reaching for each other at the same time!<P>Sit down, hold hands, slow down, let go and one more time work together to come up with a plan. There's one for you out there, you just haven't found it yet. I know that you can. Don't give up, don't give in, try to let go of some of the frustrations (and yes, I do know how hard that is!).<P>You can do this. You know you can.<P>Ok, I'm done fussing now. <P>Luv ya!<P>Lori

hi tc and lucks,<BR>Nice to meet the very lucky and spirited H of lucks!! <BR>Have to agree with lv....the two of you are on different pages, but still in the same book. TALK!! <BR>Maybe go away for the weekend without the kids, leave the stress at home? Some time together when both can relax and listen without being tired. So very hard to do with jobs, kids, and life in general. <BR>When my kids were as young as yours, things were pretty complicated at hoe. Who had time to talk? Geez, somedays I was pleased just to get bathed. Since you have opposite work schedules, can you talk via letters, fax, or phone during the day? Even just sending a fax to say I love you is so meaningful. I know, it sounds corny...but the little things are important.<BR>No more lovebusters, be patient, be respectful!!

TC, why do I get this feeling that you have an issue with sex during menstruation? But lucks does not? Seems that this might be a misunderstanding? Okay, I may be way off base...but felt something not quite right there!

Lori--<P>Thanks for responding. I always listen to your advice, oh eternally patient one! I very much agree with your grandmother's advice. Guess where I bog down is, say H wants something that I don't. With respect for our relationship, is it not his responsibility to negotiate with me until I feel good about whatever the decision is too? The same in reverse. Be that talking about it with me until I feel better, offering a tidbit more up MY alley so I see a way to tolerate his want better, suggesting a different way to the goal, etc. Does that make sense? We need to decide together what those percentages are going to be. Many times I feel there is no negotiating, it's just "accept it"--and my femininity suffers with "wait a minute, doing this is more important than my feelings?" Maybe exactly what we need is just more effective communication techniques. That is our primary goal in our counseling sessions.<P>One problem area is H wanting to play pool after work. We're at least talking about it a little better. I have qualms about it because he plays pool at the strip club after closing. The visual of strippers and/or waitresses possibly being there too is alarming. I don't know his friends, or the girls, at all...MAYbe a fast hello once or twice, and I honestly wouldn't recognize them in the light of day. So I worry about what potentially might happen (maybe he forgets that he tells me offensive things that happen at the club--expressed interest in his looks/propositions/how the girls behave with customers and other workers--and without a more rounded way for me to grasp thoughts, those remain uppermost in my mind). I like to assess people for myself. Is it an issue of trust/insecurity? Sure it is. And I need his help to feel better about it. I WANT to trust him, even in circumstances like this which, to me, are very unusual. He tells me there have been no females there after closing, but then asks "what if" questions of me, and I get upset. My brain goes 90 miles a minute, and I end up distrusting for fear of getting hurt...and yet at the same time telling him it's okay to play pool after work Tuesdays and Thursdays when I have to sleep anyway because I want him to be happy. I gotta quit doing that--telling him something's okay when I'm still worried, because I end up confusing him. I also felt totally cut off from him in case I needed him. He has explained to me that I can call the club and he'll come right home. I didn't know that (whether someone would even answer the phone after hours), and I feel a little better. I think he's going to talk with me about plans more in the future, and that would help a lot too. <P>A little interaction for me WITH these friends would also help. Whether we stop by the club occasionally on his nights off, or something else socially oriented, I will feel less in the dark about people with whom he's spending time. We've discussed H's own worries surrounding this (my easy upsets with situations that strongly arouse my fears which, in turn, has either embarrassed him or taken his needed attention away from a situation in concern for my feelings or safety), and I think I've made him feel better about not having to worry about my reactions as much. I know it's a two-way street.<P>cl --<P>THERE you are! Yes, I'm sorry TOO we couldn't get together but there's always next time. I hope you had a good time and all went well? I know you had your concerns.<P>Yes, I'm overly sensitive at times. I told H from the beginning I'm a "hot house plant." While there really ARE times I'm accepting of our situation and it doesn't bother me (ok, I tend to block it to be able to NOT worry), other times H working at a strip club just does NOT sit well with me and I suffer feelings of insecurity (when I perceive disinterest on his part). I hate admitting that I'm jealous. I prefer to think of it as a territorial thing. Dat's MAH man and there's a bunch of nekkid females parading around in front of him every night when he's working, should he choose to look!! I have a high sex drive anyway, but I honestly do think this situation triggers me as well...my tolerance level for normal things that affect our sex life, i.e., tiredness, everyday stresses. It's a pretty bad indicator by itself, I know, but the thoughts become ok, if he loves me and everything is trustworthy and as he SAYS it is, shouldn't he want to make love with me? When we're in sync, sex is fabulous. When we're not, I can completely dismiss our arguments and other problems as the reasons and blame the strip club as the culprit. While I need to act less high-strung (I'm doing better), he needs to be more patient with me when I need to talk about it with him. I WILL need to talk about it sometimes because I just plain don't like it. He doesn't either but obviously not to the same extent, or he wouldn't be working there. Male/female differences there too--the dislike may even BE the same but we handle/mishandle it very differently.<P>H wishes I would let HIM talk about his problems in an open way. I'm working on that too, really listening to what he says instead of getting alarmed and putting up a wall. We both are able to construct our walls very quickly.<P>I'll let H answer for himself, if he chooses, about whether there's some issues we need to resolve sexually. I hope he does. Personally, I think we need some work in the making love department and I realize that's mostly up to me to tell H what I want, when I want it (darn frustrating though, I wish for more inventiveness on his part...another male/female thing). I can be pretty wild and raunchy at times, bypassing a description of "making love," so I think I confuse him when I bemoan that lacking.<P>Tom--<P>I love you, so so very much. We've talked about this so I don't really feel the need to respond in detail to your answer. I would like to say though, WHEW! Methinks you're as much as whirlwind as me. I'm upset about something and my posts can make you feel THAT defensive??? Instead of getting all miffed and taking offense in disagreement with some of the things you typed, I'll choose a more positive thought--I must be under your skin. <P>You DID surprise me, in a very nice way, by watching Shakespeare in Love with me instead of the whole football game. And my car IS running much better, thank you for working on it. <P>------------------<BR>Laura<P>"I cannot care a little for you. I love you only just enough to love you all the way."~~Rod McKuen<P>

Man - I can't believe I missed this. Looked forever for you to write back, then got in a deep funk and forgot to keep checking. I was starting a "Lucks - where are you?" post and decided to search one more time. Duh.<P>You guys are ok. Just ironing out details. Lots and lots of details, but just details. Keep on talking, work out a system for you. Problem seems to be you're tackling a lot at once. One thing at a time, my dear, one thing at a time!<P>I've been thinking about you, worried a little, but your head's on straight so I figure you'll be ok. Well, mostly straight anyway!!!<P>Now I can go back to my normal obsessing! YUK! Don't compliment my patience too much. It's fading as other pressures start to build around here. Finding myself wishing away the days just in hopes of going to sleep. D's having some problems, too. <P>Oh, well. Glad to hear you guys are trying to talk (sounded that way anyway). Be good.<P>Lori

Thanks, Lori. Yes, we'll keep trying. We've been getting along fairly well these past few days. There's a difference in our consideration of each other, it seems.<P>Had our second counseling session with new counselor. She listed on a blackboard the actual time we have available to spend together, and noted that there are no days weekly for an overnight getaway, and 2 days we actually don't see each other at ALL, nevermind the odd hours.<P>Our assignment for this week is each of us to write down activities we enjoy, and see which ones are interesting for both. Then to branch out from there. <P>I really like her...we're both comfortable talking to her and feel understanding and non-bias. She's open to us doing things apart from each other with agreement (one of Tom's concerns), but understands my concern that we may grow farther apart if too much of that is relied upon due to our schedules.<P>So about YOUR obsessing...what IS going on this week?

Hey - glad you liked her and the session went so well. I like the way she thinks, too! Is Tom comfortable with her, too?<P>My stuff's too stupid to post. I take enough time on my once a week moany days!!!<P>Glad things are looking up!!!<P>Lori

HI Lucks, hi lostva,<BR>I doubt anyting is too stupid to post on here...so I volunteer to start on lucks thread! Afterall she has the sex thread. <BR>I just had to find this and bring up the sex issue at my house this week. Yep, I am not happy with what I did. <BR>While h and I were away, there was lots of time for sex, cuddling, etc. Now that real life is back in motion, we don't have much time together. This morning while showering for work, H joined me. I guess I had my heart set on a quickie before work since he has fallen to sleep for the past 3 nts. Not only did he not respond to the physical attempts, but he was real slow when I became verbal about what I wanted. Hello? <BR>Maybe I am looking for validation from sex and not considering how he felt? It is not normal behavior for him, and I am still very sensitive about anything that remotely resembles rejection.<BR>And why do you agree on something that you are not very excited about? We are supposed to be following the poja, so this is not supposed to happen! You said that playing pool a couple nts after work was okay, but resented it later. So it is really only okay if everyting else is perfect? <BR>Ahhhh, life used to be so easy. <BR>

Hi Lucks,<BR>Have not really followed your story very well, have a hard time keeping up with which story goes with who, but something in this part of your story made me want to respond.<BR>It is the matter of your H's occupation. Is he a bartender, disk jocky, bouncer or what at this titty joint? Does not really matter which it is because any of those occupations could be persued at a non-titty joint. Seems to me that, knowing your fears in relation to his occupation (and personally, I think they are quite valid) I would think a loving husband, interested in building a strong marriage, would endevour to find another place to work. Lexington is a big city with lots of bars and restaraunts and if your H enjoys that line of work he can stay in it easily, while at the same time honoring your needs for security, by finding employment in a non-titty or butt joint. <BR>Hey, I even have a cousin there who is in the restarant business and I could maybe even throw in a good word or two. <BR>My H's career takes him away from home for days at a time, but the pay really goes a long way in making the sacrifices of our time together somewhat worth it. However, if his job were such that he could stay home more and still do the work he loves I would push for it. In a town the size of Lex. there is no reason, IMHO, that your H should not be able to find a job which would enable him to be home when you are and still bring in a sufficient amount of cash. He is married man now, and as such, should be willing to focus on the needs of your union. Your lives together, your very future is absolutely the most important thing you will EVER DO! TOP PRIORITY! <P>TC, if you happen to read this, please give it some serious thought. Is there no way you could investigate finding another job? If not in the food industry, maybe somewhere else. You working in a titty joint will never sit well in the thoughts of your wife. It is much too basic of a threat. Think about it. Would you like her to have a job as manager for the Chippendale's? Now, be honest. Move to Campbellsville, get on with Amazon.com! The cost of living is much less here! Or, in nearby Lebanon there are a couple of restarants in serious need of good help. (Service is soooo slow!) Paralegals are in demand too!!<P>Hope you two work this out. You need to find time to have your recreational needs met together, coz during those times, your conversation and affection needs can also be fed,resulting in your sexual needs being met happily later!! Your financial needs may suffer a bit if you have to adjust to a new job, but hey, wouldn't it be worth it if it frees you to develop a super marriage, which IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU CAN DO IN LIFE!<P>nuff said, will step down now.<P>Thank you for your kind attention <P>Pilot's wife

Lori—<P>I agree w/cl…your stuff’s not too stupid to post. I even ASKED you to tell me about your stupid stuff! Just teasing.<P>Thanks for the well wishes! Yes, Tom likes our counselor too. He’s been more worried about me because I was the one who did a “Sarah Bernhardt” and stomped out on the last one. <P>Any more info. from the investigator yet?<P>cl—<P>Sounds like we’re both sensitive to sexual rejection when we perceive it! I tend to validate where H and I are emotionally, by his interest in me sexually. Had you experienced any disagreements before bedtime those 3 nights? Or WAS it a simple case of “too pooped to pop?” Why did you have your heart set on a quickie? That’s psychologically interesting…obviously fun, but shower quickies aren’t totally fulfilling. What if there’s 3 more exhausted nights and no making up for lost time? Would you resent that you “settled” for a quickie? <P>Hmm…about the pool playing…I think we’re having trouble negotiating that one. It’s not really pool playing that bothers me, it’s time he spends after work with co-workers, most especially AT the strip club. I also was upset one morning when H told me a stripper had joined the guys for breakfast at a restaurant. Maybe I overreacted on that one, but I do feel uncomfortable about it still. I need to explore my feelings more as to exactly why, REALLY pinpoint it. <P>I think when this confusion first started, he basically wanted to just hang with co-workers…a winding down time, unless we’d specifically planned something. This bothered me because I never knew when to expect him home and I felt sometimes it was eating into time we could enjoy together (…and if he’d rather be doing something with them instead of me…)! Phone calls from him are not consistent. He does have a valid point that if I’m asleep why wake me up (it’s a defensive rationalization too, isn’t it). So….I tried the agreement of Tuesdays and Thursdays, ok, play pool, hang out. I wasn’t completely enthusiastic about it but figured if he’s gonna do it, do it when I should be sleeping, and I get to expect him home earlier on weekend nights. Circumstances as they turned out, we fought about our typical stuff, and he ended up staying out later twice ON the weekend. That’s when I felt resentment for even agreeing to the Tuesdays and Thursdays, he wasn’t keeping his part of the agreement! The first time I was nice, calm, we again agreed…the second time, I was definitely not a nice, happy camper and back into the fight ring we go. I’m not good usually at just stating how I feel about something and letting it go—I’m a grudge-holder. Very bad of me.<P>Why do you and H have so little time together?<P>Pilot’s Wife—<P>In answer to your q, H is a bartender. He makes great tips at the strip club, and he IS correct that financial security is one of my higher emotional needs. He says to show him a job where he can make as much money AND spend more time with me and he’ll take it. I don’t think it’s that simple. I know there’s many things he doesn’t like also about working there…but it’s my feeling that he likes as much about it as he dislikes it. He likes bartending (top notch skills). The club plays rock-n-roll, his kind of music. He’s the head bartender, and he very much likes to feel in control of work situations. He’s tried restaurant work/serving, hates it…so wherever he works, he needs to be behind a bar. We hope to own a bar someday.<P>I do think you’re right…his working in a strip club will probably never sit well with me. I try so hard to be okay about it; he knows that. <P>----------------<BR>Laura

okay lucks, I need to quit thinking so much!! H and I talked about this-this morning. This whole bunch of nonsense could have been avoided. <BR>He said he was showing me that he did not want me for sex...that he wants me just to be near him, talk to him, and be with him also. He said he wants me to understand that clearly. Does this sound as hokey to you as it does to me?! <BR>Hey h, I do understand the spoken word and do not need a lesson in celibacy! Thanks, we had that celibacy stuff while waiting for the hiv clearance, and it wsa plenty for me!!<BR>I have no clue why I was settling for a quickie. Not at all sure of the underlying feelings. I guess like you settled to give him a blow job when more was wanted? I do get quite a lot of pleasure as the giver in this relationship, but I have some expectations!! I made this real clear to him, but he did not take me seriously at all. I want our old sex life, which was quite active, but he says he is satisfied with less. I am not real clear if there is a decrease desire for me, an age issue, psych issue, health issue, or what!! But it is trying my patience.<BR>Never gave too much thought about being sexually codependent, but maybe I am!!?? YOu too? Do they have special therapy for this?

oy vey....and here we go, marching off to sexual codependency therapy....hi-ho....hi-ho....<P>maybe....we're settling for one-sided giving and quickies because that's better than nuthin'. <P>H and I have a "date" tonight, after he gets off work. I'm planning it, and it will be a surprise to him, whatever I come up with. are expectations high? yep.<P>What would your H say if you said less sex wasn't satisfying YOU and his assistance is requested? Touchy subject, indeed (and a pun, ha).

cl--<P>and by the way, yes, sounded hokey to me too (but cleverly sweet).