My wife’s plane was three hours late so we didn’t talk too much last night. I understand a little more clearly the order of events that led to things now, but it doesn’t really change anything – she’s either gaslighting me or not. On Friday I tried to argue my POV to no avail and others have pointed out there’s no use in wasting breath if she is in an affair. She says she will make sure I’m comfortable with travel arrangements beforehand next time, but things changed half a dozen times in the last week this time. In fairness to her, I have been half out of it the last month after losing everything on the stock market. This did help put things back in perspective though.

For my part I don’t think there is an affair going on, but I did wake up early to install the Spector program and check her email on her notebook this morning. The “Friday Night” email was still there and did support her story. She’s always very open about her notebook and cell phone, but as Melodylane says this will capture if there is anything she doesn’t want me to see. Time will tell.

Thanks again to all who have replied for your time and thoughts.

It does not really matter what you think. There is either an affair going on as we speak or there will be one. Your wife has terrible boundaries, travels with other men, and wants you to "trust her". There is no reason to trust your wife around other men. She is your wife and should not put herself into those situations. You need to open up your eyes before you get hurt terribly.

Regarding her boundaries, I don’t really know what I can do. I tried to get her to see my POV and that got me nowhere. Her actions were UNPROFESSIONAL. I agree. It was INAPPROPRIATE. I agree. She knows my feelings and says she won’t put herself in that situation again.

You advise that I open my eyes – I’ve barely shut them in three days. I don’t know how people here function. I’ve done nothing productive at work since Friday. It took all I had over the weekend just to do the regular weekend activities and laugh and smile with the kids. I forgot entirely about a work project I was supposed to do.

I don’t know what more I can do other than snoop, monitor her cell and keep and open dialogue with her. Even the snooping feels ‘slimy’ but I understand that it is necessary. If I go a month or two or three with nothing suspicious on the computer and nothing on the cell phone and nothing further suspicious how do I tell her about the keylogger? That’s rhetorical I guess. I’ll cross that bridge later.

When I say open your eyes, I did not mean literally. I mean use your eyes and truly "see" what is going on here. Just because your eyes are open does not mean your are actually "seeing". In a marriage, it is a 50/50 deal. Both partners must give 100% or it won't work. Her not seeing your POV is evidence that she is not willing to work on your marriage. Don't tell her about the keylogger (i think you are gonna find more than you expect but truly hope not). I would suggest finding Fall in love, stay in love or His needs, Her needs by Dr. Harley.

Best thing I can tell you is be patient and don't keep tipping your hand. It is the toughest thing to do when you sense something like this is afoot.
Lay low and pretend to let it go while you stay vigilant. Never, ever disclose your sources and don't play your hand until you have undeniable proof.
The one thing that many BS's dont seem to get is just how truly unnatural a defensive response is. At first blush, it seems like a normal response: indignation to having been suspected.
But, stop and really think about how you would react if the roles were reversed and you were truly innocent> Rather than accusations of jealousy or indignation/hostility, a truly innocent, loving spouse would be making every attempt to reassure you. An innocent spouse would be looking for opportunities to talk about this and what led to your insecurities.
See, we think it makes sense to poo-poo the suspicions when they are expressed. But, the best defense is an offense method is written in the WS handbook. Upon greater scrutiny, it makes no sense.
Play opossum, tough as it is. early disclosure makes detection much harder.

I am just here to agree with everyone else. Even if your wife is NOT having an A, she is RIPE for it. She has absolutely abysmal boundaries. And the lack of boundaries is the problem.

Dr. Harley repeatedly says that ANYONE can have an affair under the right circumstances. When an affair happens, it is NEVER because "it just happened". Lack of boundaries set it up. Period.

It takes hard work to continually enforce our own boundaries, let alone try to enforce our spouse's. As an example, I am a very complimentary person. If I am working and a man comes up wearing a sharp tie or a nice shirt I have always complimented him. One day one of the guys lingered a little and I realized that I had unwittingly fulfilled an EN for him and I felt good about it. I was aghast at realizing that it was SO easy to do that. Yuck.

This doesn't mean I would have had an affair with him or even a whole conversation, but can you see where this is going? One step always leads to another. It is hard for me to NOT do something that comes naturally. But I am learning.

You must assume that if your wife was wiling to share a bedroom with another man that an affair is an easy step from that. The fact that she says she won't put herself in that position again is almost laughable. It is ASTONISHING that she would EVER have put herself and YOU in that position at all. It is an indicator that there IS a problem.

This is MORE than inappropriate and unprofessional. It is profoundly disrespectful to your position as her husband. You are not only RIGHT to snoop, you would be remiss NOT to if you value your marriage.

Blessings,
WH2LE

It seems to me that your problem stems from you slowly losing your identity in the relationship by trying to give her everything she wants to make her happy. She has been allowed to walk all over you, she expects it now, and she no longer respects you. It's time to get that respect back. At this point, she feels entitled to dominate you, and you are used to being walked on, so it is going to be difficult to change things around. At this point you need to stop worrying about whether or not she is going to leave you, and instead focus on making her respect you, or she loses you. Get mad and determined. If you show weakness, she'll use it against you. If you show strength and determination, she'll know you mean business. This is important whether or not she is actually having an affair although I think she is. I mean c'mon, sharing a room with a recently divorced co-worker.

We had a good conversation last night and I feel better than I have since Friday. I’m trying to keep my eyes open. Time (and my snooping) will tell.

Reading over the thread, using my own business travel experience, I see very clearly where your advice is coming from. Travel for me (and I imagine most of you) would involve staying in hotels by myself, eating out, expense accounts. All with very strict guidelines and management manuals available with proper conduct guidelines. For the most part, that is not like my wife’s business travel. I wanted to give a little bit of history and background to what is a very political, bureaucratic and sometimes hostile work environment. This is long so I apologize in advance.

She works with non-profit and charitable organizations where traditionally (over the last 100+- years) well-to-do business professionals sit on committees and ‘volunteer’ to oversee the funding and running of ‘the Program’.

There is a government national association that administers and must approve of everything, but effectively has no power and a minimal administrative budget. Meetings are held near the National Association office in a metropolitan city. Her plane fair is reimbursed and a rental car, but her per diem expense allowance is ludicrously low - about $55 for accommodation and $30 for food. Anything more is out of pocket. The only way for people to realistically attend meetings is to a) have mostly local people (traditional) or b) for people to billet out with friends or c) or travel together and share expenses.

My wife came up through The Program, not through business, and gravitated towards administration and policy improvement. She’s been working within the system for 20 years and knows the system better than most. She’s had a minor hand in policy and development decisions over the past 10 years and played a major role in many changes over the past 5 years. She’s sat on many committees within the system but never the one controlling the money. Her only concern is the people within The Program. She’s recently been nominated to the most powerful committee – the one that administers 80%+ of The Program funding. The whole thing has traditionally been a gentleman’s club, an ‘old boys’ club, and my wife has slowly taken the bone away from the dog. Most people applaud the work my wife has done but some people hate her for the changes she’s making and what she represents. One lawyer in this group muttered within earshot that it would be best if my wife went off somewhere and died. When she later brought this up she was told not to worry, “He hates all women”. Not your typical politically correct work environment to say the least.

(Sorry, I know this is getting long. I’m even trying to summarize…).

Anyway, jump to current situation… This was to be my wife’s first AGM meeting as a member of this committee and she invited two past influential members of this committee that were very much in her corner and supported all the changes she had done. All was going according to plan with the tentative approval of the National Association. My wife was going to fly the Red-eye flight, arrive in the morning for meetings, billet with a female friend’s family one night, attend more meetings, and then fly home. In the days before the meeting the National Association decide they couldn’t afford cover the flight and per diem expenses of the two past members – thus pulling a lot of my wife’s support from the upcoming meeting. She argued that these people have family local that they can stay with and they will waive the per diem claims. They could all three share a rental car which she would have to get anyway. The National Association agrees the day before the meetings to fund the flight of one person in addition to herself. They realize that carpooling won’t work (this was the reason for the “Friday Night” email) because OM is arriving before her so she changes her flight.

Now, the day she is leaving, she needs to book a hotel because their plane arrives at 1am (with the Red-Eye she didn’t need hotel, she was going to arrive at 5am and go straight to 7am meetings). Cheapest hotel is $150 range, so now we’re about $90 out of pocket. She books a hotel thinking it is close to the OM’s parents. The plan is she will drop him off on way to hotel (at 2am) and pick him up on way to meetings (at 7am).

This is about the time I started to put things together. Last I knew my wife was flying red-eye (no hotel necessary Friday), and staying with female friend’s family. I saw an email from my wife about a hotel for Friday (which didn’t make sense), and I remembered the “Friday Night” email title.

Back to my wife…turns out the hotel she booked wasn’t near the OM’s house, it was 30 minutes away. She’ll lose 2 hours of her 4 hours of sleep dropping off and picking up. She didn’t ask him to shell out $150 for another room, and she didn’t think of renting a second car, she had the colossal brain fart idea of sharing the room.

At this point I contacted her with my concerns:

1) Why do you need a hotel if you’re flying the Red-Eye
2) The “Friday Night” titled email

She changes reservations and gets two rooms.

Last night we talked about boundaries, respect and professionalism and she agrees with me now. We both don’t really understand how the conversation escalated so quickly on Friday. She thought I knew of all the changes, and sees how my lack of information and her poor judgement looked bad from my POV.

Yes, I’m still snooping and keylooging, and after day 1 haven’t found anything. Email threads support her timeline.

This happens often. They (suspiciously-acting spouses) realize after the fact that they came off as overly defensive, which doesn't look good. So they do some damage control and play it off as a big, kooky misunderstanding.

Don't let up about the "Friday Night" email, or why it was so quickly deleted.

If your gut has led you here, you'd be in the extreme minority if it turns out your wife is completely innocent. I don't think I've read of a single instance yet where the spouse in question wasn't at least having an emotional affair, and it's ususally a physical affair, too.

Good luck.

Don't let her bullsh** you, my friend. In the real world, a true businessman or woman would not even think twice about coughing up a few extra dollars, rather than offer to SHARE A HOTEL ROOM with a member of the opposite sex! I have NEVER once seen this done in a legitimate business situation.

I don't buy for one moment that your wife, who has been working soooo hard to be taken seriously in the good ol' boys' club, did not realize this behavior is so colosally unprofressional as to be laughable. She can expect to never be taken seriously again once word gets out.

Yes the “Friday Night” email was deleted from her Hotmail. I haven’t forgotten. It wasn’t deleted from her notebook though. I didn’t bring this up as I am trying to keep her complacent if she is trying to deceive me. I suspect she deletes everything in Hotmail that she’s already dealt with from her notebook while she is on the road (just speculating).

I hope I’m in the extreme minority then, but I’m open to the possibility that I am not. I’ve signed “His needs, Her Needs for parents” out of the library in the meantime and am trying to absorb all I can from this site.

I agree, and I know if it looks and smells like BS that you should watch your step. Anything I say will sound like an excuse or unrealistic if you do regular business travel. My wife’s had to share a hotel room with 2 other women on one occasion to cover expenses. On another occasion 6 people shared two hostel rooms (not hotel, hostel) – two women in one room and 4 people in The Program in the other to make it affordable. If people don’t do this they have to pay out of their own pocket. It’s not worth it for the money. She does it because she enjoys helping people in The Program. Again, I agree that the hotel was WAY over the line. In retrospect, I believe she agrees too.

I’ve caused financial issues the last month (well 2.5 months really) and emotionally removed myself from the marriage so I’m not denying that something could be going on. I’m back now with a vengeance and I love my wife and want to believe her but I’m keylogging and snooping to try and find out if there is more here.

We are just calling it as we see it and do not want you to get blindsided.

FN:

Sorry.

I'm going to throw the RED FLAG on all that travel stuff.

She's a member of a local group, and has worked her way in to the National Organization, and they don't like to pay the travel costs and expenses of thier employees?

I'm sorry. I've worked with local and national non-profits, and they OFTEN operate on shoestrings.

But what she just described? NO WAY. Not in a million years.

THe Hostel event? Sure, why not. But NOT what your WW described for the "BIG" meeting.

Understand something about waywards....When they are planning something with thier OP, then they have all sorts of protections, early in the plan. Seperate flights, seperate hotel rooms, etc, etc.... Then, this goes wrong, and that goes wrong, and suddenly...SURPRISE!!! We ended up in a hotel room together!

Just like your WW described.

So you have to go into your pocket for travel expenses. Establish a budget. And work with it. GEt the max from the local and national org, and minimize the travel to extent that you can, and then you two fund the extraordinary precatutions needed.

Or she can quit and join a different Non-profit.

LG

Fridaynight

You have bought the baloney.

"In the days before the meeting the National Association decide they couldn’t afford cover the flight and per diem expenses of the two past members"
"She argued that these people have family local that they can stay with and they will waive the per diem claims."

This is the cover for her trip originally. That WW was going on a group trip as usual. Not until you caught her then she lies again to change her story.

"The National Association agrees the day before the meetings to fund the flight of one person in addition to herself."

What business expects a person to get a plane ticket the day before a meeting and making the meeting on time let alone at all?

"They realize that carpooling won’t work (this was the reason for the “Friday Night” email) because OM is arriving before her so she changes her flight."

He had family there why did she have to change her flight and arrive with him?

The foundation pays for car rentals. They wanted him there and willing to buy him a ticket but not rent him a car?

He had family there why did he not rent his own car and drive to his relatives house to sleep?

He had family there, were none of his family available to pick him up at the airport and bring him to their home?

Couldn't of WW of picked OM at his families house on the way to the meeting?

As you have said, well to do people serve on these boards. He did not need any one to pay for his flight, hotel, or, car rental. If the OM wanted to be there bad enough he would of paid for it out of his pocket gladly.

"Now, the day she is leaving, she needs to book a hotel because their plane arrives at 1am (with the Red-Eye she didn’t need hotel, she was going to arrive at 5am and go straight to 7am meetings)."

WW still did not need a hotel room. WW did not have to fly in with OM.

"She books a hotel thinking it is close to the OM’s parents. The plan is she will drop him off on way to hotel (at 2am) and pick him up on way to meetings (at 7am). "

With Google maps WW could not find a hotel close to OM parent's house?

For what purpose WW and OM are flying in at 2 AM when the meeting is at 7 AM?

Are they going to bed at 3 AM and getting up at 5, 6 AM. What are they going to do with three hours of sleep?

"This is about the time I started to put things together. Last I knew my wife was flying red-eye (no hotel necessary Friday), and staying with female friend’s family. I saw an email from my wife about a hotel for Friday (which didn’t make sense), and I remembered the “Friday Night” email title."

You caught WW in a lie. She was planning on doing the OM.

"turns out the hotel she booked wasn’t near the OM’s house, it was 30 minutes away. She’ll lose 2 hours of her 4 hours of sleep dropping off and picking up. She didn’t ask him to shell out $150 for another room, and she didn’t think of renting a second car, she had the colossal brain fart idea of sharing the room."

WW is hoping that you are having a brain fart so that you will believe the nonsense.

Why would WW ask OM to rent another room?

His didn't rent the first room for there to be another room?

Wasn't he staying with relatives?

"At this point I contacted her with my concerns:"
"1) Why do you need a hotel if you’re flying the Red-Eye
2) The “Friday Night” titled email"

All this baloney confuses me. There is no way WW's fog babble can explain this:

"She changes reservations and gets two rooms."

"Last night we talked about boundaries, respect and professionalism and she agrees with me now. We both don’t really understand how the conversation escalated so quickly on Friday. She thought I knew of all the changes, and sees how my lack of information and her poor judgment looked bad from my POV. "

I hope you realize that there was not a lack of communication her but a clever WW trying to lie her way out of being caught.

"Yes, I’m still snooping and keylogging, and after day 1 haven’t found anything. Email threads support her timeline. "

All this proves is that your WW is not using her computer to carry in her affair. I would get a digital voice activated recorder and hide it in her car to monitor cell phone, and one in your home to catch phone calls their.

Also check cell phone bill for potential OM info.

I would tell: WW, I have thought over what you have said. It doesn't make any sense to me. Then ask her all the things that I brought up in this post.

The with the baloney WW will feed you. You call the OMW and expose that the OM was going to stay in a hotel room alone with your WW. Ask OMW if she knew this and how she feels about that. Then tell OMW

This is hard LG. I’m trying to give ‘most’ of the details, but stay anonymous. If I gave more accurate details it would probably answer your questions but you (or somebody associated with The Program) would be able to guess who my wife is – and who I am. I apologize, I can’t give more accurate info. I was just trying to address the “that’s not how anyone does business” element.

My biggest concern Friday was just as you say – there seemed to be a lot of premeditation to the way they ended up planning to be together. That still may be the case. I hope not.

Road, yes, either she is lying to me or not. I don't know what more I can do about that right now. She obviously has at least one huge boundary issue I didn't recognize. I'm monitoring cell and keylogging. Even though I want to know everything right now, the common thread of wisdom seems to be sit back a bit and let her make the next mistake. Let her get comfortable and complacent. I think that will help with my sleep too - I haven't slept more than 3 hours in 4 nights.

I'm not dismissing what you say, but I'm not going to re-challenge her now and put her on alert. I'm the one on full alert.

Get two digital voice activated recorders for the home and her car. Must have for gathering evidence.

She IS lying. I'm sorry. Believe me no one wishes she weren't more than the people here posting to you.

I bought the lies for ages. You know why? Because I loved my life and couldn't believe I married a liar.

You do realize that even non-profits have to worry about sexual harrassment? Same room? Even my wife didn't try one so lame.

Snoop hard.

keylogger and DVR

FridayNight,

I read the details of travel, expenses, out-of-pocket and all your other rationalizations. Great job of you to argue WW's case for her. In other words, what a load of hooey[sic?].

Step back and look at what you are saying. Would you let your WW sleep in the same room with any man yet alone a recently divorced one just to save $90? Do you really think two beds makes it okay?

Regardless of what your WW's current feelings may be toward this travel partner, you are allowing them to create a situation of intimacy. Affairs don't usually happen in one slam bang. They more often develop gradually and progressively as the partners allow more and more barriers to be broken. She has already stepped way over the line so this barrier is gone. If your WW is not in an A, it is only a matter of time.

And the poster who said you are being a doormat - you just proved it by trying to justify your WW's actions. You are like the captain of the Titanic telling everyone to be calm and not worry because that ole iceberg just scrapped the paint a little and there is really nothing to worry about.

Either you need to gladly pay those out-of-pocket expenses without complaint or else have WW get a job where she doesn't have to spend her own money to do it.

Or get a divorce - almost forgot that option.

Which of the three options would be most cost-effective?