I'm starting a new thread because I'm not sure how much WH is reading discussions here. Got long post back from him:

"just don't know what to say anymore. I don't believe the Marriage Builders plans are absolute or work in every case. If that's where you're getting your support and insights into my "fog" then we really don't have anything to talk about. I happen to believe that we can still be loving parents, still teach our children that lesson. And of course I know the other lesson around 'giving up' and being with another woman are things I will have to work a very long time on and our kids will now have to deal with-which of course (in case you didn't know) troubles me deeply.

However, despite MB dogmatic views and prescriptions, the potential (and its nothing more than that at this point) of me being with OW isn't what's driving this for me. I know I can't be happy staying together, I've known this for a long time, or be a healthy dad and healthy co-parent if we stayed together. This is where we disagree, I know. I just can't stay in this hole anymore and I know you can't. To see the emotional, psychological harm I've caused you, the kids, you have no idea how responsible I feel, how repulsive and a failure I know I am...

I want to be a better, loving, attentive dad-more than anything in this world- and I want you to take care of yourself. I know you are trying to do this and I'll do everything I possibly can to support that, even if you don't believe me or see that, and even if you can't have me in your life if decide to move to Plan B. (And I'm sorry if me knowing the approach, logic and lingo of MB is unnerving-but what did you expect I would do after asking me to speak with Dr. Harley? He aked if I had looked into MB).

BS-as much as you don't believe this, as much as you think its some 'fog' speaking, I love and care for you and want only what's best for you AND the kids and I know in my heart that it's not staying together or trying to force happiness (as you put it) or trying to set emotion aside and simply be driven by some logic that if only conditions were different the heart will follow (as Dr. Harley insisted). This may work for most, but not for me...

And the last thing I want is for you to be trying to meet my emotional needs to convince me you're a more attractive alternative to a relationship that doesn't even really exist at this point. Don't you see? You're a wonderful, smart, attractive person-you don't need to convince me of that. Do you really think I cared that much about a clean house, about getting out of debt, that I forgot those qualities of you?? Trying to meet my needs just means more false hope... As much as I love you, I'd rather you take care of yourself and say to hell with me if for you it's this type of black and white choice, if this is the only way...

I love you. I care for you. I have already let you go (long before OW) and wish nothing more than to be the loving co-parents, to be the loving dad I so sincerely can/want to be. I know you don't want this. I know I'll forever be seen as the bad guy, the abandoner, the adulterer, everything else... I know I've disappointed and alienated virtually everyone-yes, even OW (surprised?). I have no peace with this-in fact...I can't even tell you how much I've simply wanted to end things-especially last night/today. You have no idea. But that's my problem..

I just don't know what else to say. I'm just so tired and know you are too"

I'm I completely fooling myself? He is all over the map, but I get stuck on statements like "I have alreay let you go (long before OW)" and such.
I want to take care of myself and I try not to respond with more than I can say at this point (I don't desire a divorce; I don't know if we can rebuild, but I need to investigate, etc) and I'm trying not to get caught up in some of what he's said here...
Still confused, torn and now worried...
BF439

Your email could have been written by my WH, although he hasn't found MB but has seen me on the forum page. I see so much of what he has said in the email that it really sounds like the fog talking to you.

I am unqualified to offer advice, but I can offer empathy and prayer.

Thinking of you in your difficult time and leaving it to the vets to help out.

Good luck BF

That looks like prototypical Fogspeak to me. I'm sure he believes it, too.

I'm very sorry.

You know it's a load of crap, right? Everything he said is in the Wayward Script. Try not to waste too much of your energy worrying about he says.

Send him this. You can tell him believer sent it to him.

Does Divorce Make People Happy?
Does divorce after separation lead to greater happiness? That is an issue that many couples ponder when the going gets tough.

Now insight comes from a new source. US commentator Mona Charen writes, “The Institute for American Values (www.americanvalues.org) has released a new study with some intriguing data about the effects of divorce on the unhappy couples themselves. It seems that another great myth is about to tumble – the myth that at least divorce makes unhappily married adults happier. Even this may not be true.”

“According to the survey conducted by a team of family researchers, unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier five years after the divorce than were equally unhappy marrieds who remained together. And two-thirds of unhappily married people who remained married reported that their marriages were happy five years later.

Even among those who had rated their marriages as “very unhappy”, nearly 80 percent said they were happily married five years later. These were not merely bored or dissatisfied whiners. They had endured serious problems, including alcoholism, infidelity, verbal abuse, emotional neglect, depression, illness, and work and money troubles.”

“Even more surprising, unhappy spouses who divorced actually showed slightly more depressive symptoms five years later than those who didn’t. (They did, however, report more personal growth.) And, make of this what you will, the divorced sample reported a good deal more alcohol consumption than the married group. The data shows that if a couple is unhappy, the chances of their being happily married five years hence are 64 percent if they remain together but only 19 percent if they divorce and remarry.”

In that study by the Institute for American Values chaired by sociologist Linda Waite of the University of Chicago, researchers asked, “Does divorce make people happy?” They found that those who ended their troubled marriage in divorce weren’t any happier than those who remained married. In fact, two-thirds of those who stayed married reported happy marriages five years later.

This is one piece of information that I wished couples had at their disposal when contemplating divorce. From years of counselling couples thinking they would be better off without their current partner, and in the hope that second or third time round, they would end with a better result, I wish I had a few good facts at my disposal that I could share with them. They look at divorce as a solution to their marital woes, a viable answer to their pain and frustration. Ultimately, however, it creates only different problems.

I had good basic information of the New Testament teaching and the attitude of Jesus Christ, which they would always receive, but would rarely consider as the defining information. I drew up a list of potential outcomes for partners after divorce, but found that most people were optimistic about their own outcomes in their situation.

In “The Australian Presbyterian” June 2006, I found Georgia Shaffer making some good suggestions. Georgia Shaffer, author, speaker and licensed psychologist works in Pennsylvania.

1. Life will change more than you realize. After divorce, both men and women may be very lonely. Not all get remarried, and their new state, desirable from a distance is often unbearable after divorce. Lack of access to children can create particular problems. One man said, “I didn’t expect to miss odd things like the towels folded neatly, shopping for groceries together, or the Saturday routine we’d established.”

Instead of two people parenting your children, if you have custody, you’re left to do it all alone. You become the sole breadwinner, spiritual adviser, disciplinarian, and housekeeper. The stress levels of this responsibility can become staggering.

One recently divorced woman said of herself and her friend, “It can be heartbreaking to see our sons during a short college break. Although we both cooperate with our ex-husbands, we still ache as we watch our innocent children bear the heavy responsibility of carefully doling out their time between the families in an effort not to alienate either parent. Although the everyday occurrences can create plenty of challenges after divorce, the special occasions are worse. Every birthday, holiday, wedding, or funeral is a potential nightmare.

One young woman, approaching marriage, is planning to walk down the aisle by herself because she has multiple fathers and is torn between her allegiances. These problems don’t end when the children grow up and marry. The hassles continue with the grandchildren. Even if you remarry, the consequences of your divorce continue to impact your life.

You can love and trust again, but the first marriage is God’s best. We weren’t meant to give up on it, but to work through all the struggles to God’s glory and our best. The tearing of the flesh may heal, but the scars are always there. Remarriage can be great in many ways if you marry for the right reasons, but it’s still not the same.

2. Your life won’t be more carefree. As a self-confident, independent woman with a fast-moving career and no children, Stephanie couldn’t wait to be free of the pain of her dying marriage. “I would no longer have to put with up his problems,” she says. “I’d be able to do what I wanted when I wanted. But after the divorce, it was my career and my home that began to hold me hostage. I was imprisoned by all the things I thought made me look good.” Divorce never brought the carefree lifestyle Stephanie had expected.

There are those seemingly hidden emotional wounds that can pop open when we least expect, or which we learn to expect on special anniversaries. Jan Coleman says: “Every Christmas, I become depressed. After 20 years it still hits me suddenly, without warning. I was first married in December, and my childhood sweetheart left me for another woman 15 Decembers later. Every year I have a weepy week.” Jan’s second husband understands and gives her the space “to grieve again for the loss of that ideal family I spent my life imagining. There are times when it hits him too. You’re never free from the effects of that broken first marriage”. Two-thirds of those who stayed married reported happy marriages five years later.

3. You trade one set of problems for another. Even the most amiable break-ups bring deep wounds. There are always consequences to divorce. “What I didn’t anticipate,” says Brad, who hasn’t remarried, “was the way my friends perceived me. All of a sudden I became damaged goods. One couple, who’d been my close friends for 20 years, became cool toward me after the divorce.”

There’s a ripple effect. Your divorce doesn’t just affect you and your spouse. It affects everyone around you. Friends often feel as if they must pick sides, so they keep their distance. Relationships with those who do remain loyal change abruptly. Church friends may stay away, feeling uncomfortable. And family members who’ve grown to love and care for the ex feel forced to “divorce” as well.

Then there are the financial ramifications. Dividing the assets isn’t always done equitably. Vern was left with only 31 percent of his retirement account even though his ex-wife worked and they had no children together. At the age of 49, this circumstance was a blow to his retirement plans. If there’s a remarriage, blending children from previous marriages brings problems that can range from emotional chaos to stoic tolerance. A recently remarried friend said: “My life is more complicated than ever. I’ve put all this effort into a new marriage, but we’re struggling. My new stepson ignores me. His attitude is, ‘I’m here to be with my dad and that’s it.’ I feel horrible — like a second class citizen in my own home.”

4. Feelings can be deceiving. Kathy, who was in her 20s and newly married, learned that following her feelings can have tragic consequences. “My husband was away a lot, and most evenings I was home alone. I felt lonely and empty. Many nights I cried myself to sleep and wondered why I ever got married. “When I met a man who made me feel alive and passionate about life, I concluded these feelings of excitement confirmed I was no longer in love with my husband. Rather than praying and giving my concerns to God, I took the situation in my own hands and moved out. I was convinced I’d made a mistake in getting married.”

Still single five years later, Kathy wishes some wise woman would have come alongside her, prayed with her, and gently reminded her that love is a choice and a commitment, not an emotion. They look at divorce as a solution to their marital woes, a viable answer to their pain and frustration. Ultimately, however, it creates only different problems.

A happy marriage is never easy. As my wife and myself plan our celebrations for our fiftieth anniversary, I reflect upon all of our friends who have found separation and divorce did not answer their problems, but which instead presented a new set of issues. No marriage that lasts is easy. It requires both partners to have patience and perseverance, forgiveness and understanding.

And also my ex said the same thing 3 years ago. Now he is miserable and curses the day he met the OW.

Thanks, believer! I have a very hard time telling reality with him, but I have gotten better in a few short weeks, with only a few bumps, that I don't have to agree or follow him at all on this. These are his interpretations and decisions and I know where my heart is and what I think is the right choice for me. I feel stronger every day to focus on myself without agreeing to his demands (and honestly they are demands -- that we divorce and stay friends...)
BF439

Ahhhh...the wayward dream. If only on some strange planet this were possible.

If he follows through with his plans, he'll learn soon enough that you will see him for the abuser that he is and his kids won't care about him at all...they will only view him as the guy that left and crushed there awesome mother.

If he follows through with this I recommend doing everything in your power to see that your WH is regulated to an every other weekend at the most, father. If his thinking doesn't change...he is lost and your children need protection from such narcissism.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - try not to read to much into letters such as this as the addicted mind is only concerned with ONE THING...it's addiction. Everything in that letter is written throught the filter of "I'm selfish and I'm going to say whatever I need to say to get BW to leave me and OW alone. OW has a problem with being perceived as a piece of trash so if I can convince BW and OW that the marriage was over long before OW entered the picture maybe...just maybe we can all be loving friends in the end". Hogwash. OW is and will always be a home wrecker, not worthy of yours or anybodies esteem (unless she gathers her wits and dumps your husband). A life of misery awaits them and they need praying for before it's too late.

BF & Believer:

Wow, that was very intense and so familiar to me as well. Thank you very much for posting this entire thread.

BF, your H's email is rife with FOG. It could have been written by virtually anyone's WS/xWS here, mine included (many of the phrases were used practically verbatim by my WW in emails/conversations/texts to me). The problem is that they actually believe it. To them it is REALITY as they see it. Basically, they strongly feel and believe that:

the M is "hopeless"
it is impossible for them to ever "be happy" again in the M
they have lost their "feelings" and "can't get them back"
they have to "have feelings" before they can initiate actions, rather than the other way around [my WW vehemently insisted this]
the outside world (probably incl. the OP) offers them the happiness they seek and "deserve"
they are "sorry", you are a "good person", and you will "recover"
you are being "naive" and "unrealistic" in hoping for and expecting them to see it differently
they have "tried for YEARS", but now it is just "too late" [as though there is some giant doomsday clock in the sky that already hit 12]
we both and the kids will both be "better off as friends" in the long run
love is something you "just feel", rather than things you do
their commitment and vows didn't really cover this type of situation [my XX said "yes, I meant my vows...to a certain extent"]
they "care about you" but you "just can't be together"
they don't want you to hold onto "false hope"
"I actually left you inside a long time ago"
"I will always love you but we just aren't right for each other"
(an expression of self-sympathy): "this is tough on me too...but I'm taking the hard and independent path"

...and so on and so on...heard it a million times. All you can do is ignore it all--trying to reason or convince them out of it (I did this for months) only reinforces their notions and frustrates you. I'm sorry...it sucks big time.

Believer,

The stuff you posted about the "divorce trap" (which is basically the false belief that the grass is greener after or outside of the M) is all true and well documented. It is all presented in divorce-care seminars too. Problem is, a WS DOESN'T CARE WHAT THE STATS ARE AND WILL NEVER BE SWAYED BY LOGIC. You could mathematical demonstrate that they have only a 1 in 1000 chance of (whatever they want) and they will INSIST they are the exception. In response to my efforts along these lines, my WW said "that is a chance I have to take" and "I really don't think I am ruining my life!"

Then, they do just that by falling head first into the trap.

I'm sure he does...but, if you had sent him the info you just posted BACK THEN, he would have brushed it off as you "just grasping at straws" and completely ignored it. I don't quite see what you hope to accomplish by recommending that BF send it to her WH. Hmmm???

thanks all of you! I'm doing much better sticking to my beliefs without being swayed by his thinking, which seems distorted to me. A couple more questions, tho:
Should I stop posting now that he's familiar with the site? I don't think he thinks I'm posting. But who knows...
His comment about "ending it all" concerned me and I let his counselor know because he did not respond to my questions about that? He'll prob be mad, but I can't b sure he'd tell her, but I can't really do more. I'm not going to divorce him so he doesnt feel suicidal .
Last one, I get the sense that del with is fraying -- say it ends do I still go to plan b if he doesn't want to work on M?
Thoughts?
BF

My WW says many of those same things except she is more hateful (I guess trying to drive me away). I have stopped trying to convince her otherwise. Her family tries to wake her out of her fog but I know there is nothing else I can do at this point. I am just hoping to minimize the negative impact on our kids.

I don't think you need to stop posting...even if your H knows it (input from vets here please?). He probably doesn't care what you do while he is in the fog.


Assuming you have done Plan A, I would advise you to go to a VERY DARK Plan B. Plan D (divorcing him) is only if:
1) You have gone through 2 years of plan B w/o him returning on his own.
2) You decide that YOU don't want a reconciliation anymore.


I don't know what "del with is fraying" means. If you are referring to his A with the OW, you should stay in Plan B until the A ends AND he is willing to renew your M. Stick to your guns o/w he will "false recovery" on you...i.e., tell you the affair is over when it really isn't (NC w/ OW) or befriend you while he is looking for someone else. H must commit to YOU and ONLY YOU.

Thanks, SCDWMan, I meant, of course that his relationship with OW seems to be fraying. I think he is getting very frustrated that I won't go along with his plan, "for the kids," which is how is trying to control through guilt. Now, its not like I haven't attempted to use guilt to get him to stop what he's doing, but I am working on making the healthier choices, with no LB's.
Steve Harley suggested that I stay in a guarded plan A for now, but that I will probably have to go plan b. I know that when I go plan b it will have to be very dark and he will likely not turn things around, but at least I will be protected from him.
Do you include extended family (those who support his decision, although not the affair) or just him?
Someone said (I think Believer or RTW) that it gets a little easier and the less I try to convince him of anything the better I feel. I am starting to see that.
I had a thought earlier after reading Mr. Wondering about the complete idiocy of his desire to be my friend and healthy co-parent. Why would I stay friends with someone who not only disrespected me, but continues to do so by maintaining contact with the person he conspired with to hurt me more than anyone ever? How is that being a friend? He may want to say that the marriage was long over, then why would he continue an affair, continue the lies until he was fully exposed? Is it just me or is that the craziest logic ever? And his family is right there with him, because to them it sounds so plausible (unless you really look at his actions).
Ok, simmering down now....
BF439

It's not you. It IS crazy logic. :crosseyedcrazy:

BF,

My gosh I feel so bad for you...I went through the exact same things 2 years ago and I know the pain and frustration you fell--believe me, I DO.

Don't go along with his plans for D (unless that truly is what YOU want). He doesn't need you to do that--he can file on his own if he wants. He wants you to "agree" so that his guilt is alleviated and he can feel better about skipping off into A-land.

Yes, trying to actively "guilt him" into coming home NEVER works. [I did this many times with my xWW--they can rationalize away all of that: "God wants me to be happy!"]

If SH is advising you, by all means follow what he says. I wouldn't be surprised at all if your H "turns around" after some time being Plan B'd. No guarentees for sure, but if his A with the OW is already "fraying", having to rely EXCLUSIVELY on her for all his EN's will probably break them up as they realize how completely "wrong" the A is in so many ways. [I am assuming you have exposed and OW has been outed.]

Extended family: I assume you mean family on HIS side. Hmmm, I would ask SH that one, but my guess is that the answer is "no".

Yes, it does get easier--it is exhausting and futile to try to "convince" a WS (they tend to resist all the more any direct "pressure" you put on them). Once you realize that, you release yourself from the burdens of his decision.

Friends: I completely agree (though in case of a D you will have to co-parent). My WW/xWW has expressed a desire to "be friends" several times and has tried to find out about what I'm up to and how my family (whom she was very close with but discarded anyway) is doing. I have told her that I have no desire to "be friends" with someone I exchanged LIFE-LONG VOWS with and who hurtfully abandoned her marriage for OM. I have told her that she is no longer to seek info on my family and they also have no interest in hearing from her (directly or indirectly) as long as she chooses to not be a PART OF THE FAMILY. I have told her that my moral code will not allow me to denigrate our vows by settling for "friendship" and that I will NOT condone or validate her ongoing R with the OM by having her in my life in ANY (even platonic) way. Make it respectfully but FIRMLY CLEAR to your H that you WILL NEVER BE "HIS FRIEND" OUTSIDE OF YOUR M.

As for your last few questions, read this copied post of mine for the answer:

"EVERY wayward spouse(WS) does 2 things to rationalize and justify their affair and why they "can't go back" to their marriage and should instead be with their affair partner(AP):

1) The WS always scapegoats and bad-mouths the betrayed spouse(BS). The WS does this to themselves, to their AP, to their family & friends, and to basically anyone who will listen. The BS is always depicted as a horrible, unloving husband/wife.

2) The WS always "rewrites their marital history" mentally to themselves and all the above people. The marriage the WS is betraying is portrayed as irretrievably miserable--the negatives are accentuated and the positives are de-accentuated.

This is all done to bury guilt, avoid the truth, escape from the pain the WS is both feeling and inflicting, and to make it seem to be "OK" to have/continue the affair. Truth is, no marriage is perfect and no relationship partner is either. It is FOG, not REALITY.

Dr. Pittman ('Private Lies') writes than an adulterous spouse will convince themselves (and try to convince others) that "my marriage was destroyed and that is why I had an affair" when the reality is "the affair (can/will) destroyed the marriage".

When I hear waywards say these things, I wonder, if your spouse is so terrible and your marriage has been so horrible, WHY DIDN'T YOU LEAVE HIM/HER AND JUST GET A DIVORCE TO BE ON YOUR OWN? (i.e. without getting into a affair relationship first!)

WHY? Here's why--the affair is a fantasy escape from the reality of whatever is bothering you and you are in effect fence-sitting by hanging onto some elements of your marriage and some elements of your affair at the same time."

Oh the drama and the poor misfortunes of WH. And to think he is so selfless in this decision to let you move on without him.



He's so tired and concerned, poor poor WH, he simply wanted you to be happy...........with HIS choice and accept what HE wanted as YOUR reality. Typical foggggg!

Not a single apology, not a bit of true remorse. Just a letter attempting to get you to play nice and stop causing him the grief of interfering in his illustrious delusions of fantasy in affair land.

Don't buy it for a minute.

This reeks of desperation to get you to beeeeee nice. Sounds like he is already having trouble in paradise.

Yeah, I don't really see much apology in there either! Maybe I should look harder!
Anyway, its so helpful to bounce this off of folks as I read it and then think about how this logic must be reinforced somewhere (friends, family, counselor?) I simply must not reinforce the logic on my end! I don't think I could even follow this logic!
Steve told me to keep track of sort of what his arguments are -- I think I'll just send this to him, because I couldn't explain it any more. It's too blinkin'unbeleivable for me to describe! :RollieEyes:

Tonight is his night with kids and he only has the two younger and I nicely suggested he keep them overnight (gasp, on a school night?!) and he agreed (after his typical blowback about his schedule and how he could make it work...) Soo.... I have the entire night off and I don't even have to put kids to bed! I plan to have beautiful, caring for BF, kind of evening! Suggestions?
BF439

I have a story that I have wanted to share for awhile. I think this thread it’s the right spot. It is in reference for the “my marriage was over long ago” concept

My WxH used this line on his way out the door. “our M was over long ago”. I was WAY confused by that. If it was over, why was I still cooking for him, doing his laundry, sleeping with him in the same bed. Why did we continue to have an active SF life, hang out together on the weekends, etc. it took me a long time to see that line as the BS it truly is.

Fast forward a few years. My new H and I were invited to a wine tasting party at a friends house. At one point, I was sitting in the kitchen visiting with some of the women. One lady there, I’ll call her Ann, whom I had not met before. She was going on and on about how she and her H stopped attending their church because they did not agree with something the pastor had done. Apparently the choir director had an A with one of the singers – they both were M. when the A came out, they refused to stop seeing each other. The pastor and elders met with the choir director and his A partner several times, and when they still refused to stop their adulterous R, they were asked to leave the church. Ann and her H were horrified by that. In her words “Their M’s were probably over years ago. That happens. The M is emotionally over, but they stay together for the kids. If those 2 managed to find new love, it is not the pastors business.

I exploded. Of course this hit a sore spot with me. I said “that garbage about the M being over - - I’ll bet their spouses didn’t know that. I’ll bet their spouses were living life, doing the best they could, with no knowledge that their M was over. My Ex said the same thing about me, and I can assure you that our M was not over until OW#1 convinced him it was. And now she has dumped him, and he realizes he made a huge mistake, but it is way too late. The pastor was right to step in, and try to stop them from making a huge mistake.

When I finished speaking, the kitchen was silent. I realized I probably came on too strong. I apologized, and said “that just hits a sore spot with me”. Later that evening a little light bulb went on in my head, and I realized that the reasons “Ann” supported the whole “M was all ready over” theory was because she and her current H had started their own R that way. She was in a M that was only a couple of years old at the time. I did not confront her about it – I just realized that I knew why she supported that convoluted theory.

That was a couple of years ago. For Halloween this year my friend, who had the wine tasting party, invited us over for another party. I had not seen “Ann” or her H since that last time. Half way into the evening Anns H came in, drinking, laughing, and having a good time. I asked where “Ann” was, and he replied “in the house somewhere”. Eventually she emerged from the bathroom, looking awful. They must have been fighting on their way to the party. She spent the entire evening sitting in a corner, alone, pouting. She did not stand next to her H, or engage in conversation with anyone. Her H continued to make himself the life of the party. I suspect that Ann has just found out that this, her second M, was also over “long ago”. I don’t even need to ask her – it was obvious to me that things are not good in this M, and it most likely goes back to her shallow view of M, commitment, and family values. I feel pity for her. I know that she is in a mess of her own creation. But I also know that it will be a long time before she is able to dig herself out of that pit – if ever.

That is why I read a story like yours, and my heart cries out for you – and your WH! I KNOW that if your WH does not stop what he is doing, repent, and turn away from that OW, he is headed too far more misery than he could ever have imagined. The path he is headed down is dark, painful, and lonely. I wish I could just step in, grab him by the shoulders and say STOP!!! Turn away!! Go back to your W while she will still have you.

Back off my soap box for now.

Yeah, they ALL do this bu!!-[censored]. One minute these WSs are telling you how horrible and unworthy you have been and how "you ruined our M" [blaming you to rationalize the A & their guilt], the next minute they are calmly describing how "its been over for years" [re-writing history-another A justification mechanism], and soon thereafter they are sucking up by saying "I care about you and wish you happiness" [trying to ease their guilt by buttering you up to just 'go along' and not condemn them].

IT ALL FOG!

Either 1) ignore it completely and give it no credence whatsoever in your mind or 2) firmly & calmly neutralize it w/o trying to convince them otherwise...

Examples
WS: "As much as I love you, I can't see our M being happy"
BS: "It must be difficult to go through life being so blind"

WS: "I left you long before the OP came into the picture"
BS: "Perhaps I just imagined that was my (husband/wife) in bed with me the last few years"

WS: "My A with OP has nothing to do with us"
BS: "You are correct, the A was and is completely your choice"

WS: "I am tired and too stressed to continue this"
BS: "Yes, I can see how living a deceitful double life could be very fatiguing and hard on one's concience"

WS: "I just don't have 'those feelings' for you anymore"
BS: "I can see why...it's hard to value your spouse when you don't respect yourself first"

WS: "We just aren't right for each other"
BS: "Yes, it isn't right for anyone to cheat and abandon their M"

Here is an oldie but a goodie (X2)--
WS: "Me and OP are just friends at work"
BS: "Funny, this the only 'friend' either of us has ever kept secret from one another"

WS: "I wasn't looking for a relationship--it just happenned!"
BS: "Bad things tend to happen when good people do nothing to stop them"

and so on....

Wow, those are all very good! I reread some of my responses to his emails last night and I got to tell you I was pretty proud of meeself! I stayed on my message (I do not desire a divorce as long as there is a solution for hapiness that we have not attempted and that I cannot support his affair or actions in any way), and lo and behold, my day was actually better! I was way more productive at work (with a few drop-ins here) and No crying!!
THe more I look at what he says as the BS it is and not feel compelled to convince him otherwise, the more I feel like I can take care of me!
You guys so rock and I'm so glad you got to see his rationalizations in full glory. Even if there were an ounce of truth to "I (WH) left the marriage long ago and I've been trying for 13 years," its still does not then fit that you abandon your family! As Harley said, the cracks are beginning to show and at least I'm insulated enough now to not let him take me with him.
BF439