If you were, you would probably be even more confused!

L4,

I think it is sometimes difficult for women to understand that men use alone time to process feelings and problems. I understand that women like to talk problems out with others. To men this can seem like endless whining, I have teenage daughters so I get to see both ways of processing.

I don't think your H is necessarily working up to leaving you, he may just need the alone time to figure it all out for himself.

Okay, L4, long time-no post. How are you doing?

L4,

Read and reread 6years' post to you. He is giving you the straight skinny on us guys.

You said a few things in your post that I thought I might comment on. You said
This is good, it means he is processing just as 6years has told you.



These statements are good things, it shows that in his heart he has deep love of you. The next statements show his deepest fears and these YOU are going to have to answer honestly for yourself and for him.



I think this is something that many men fear. As we work and are away from home, and life goes on without us, we begin to feel/fear that we are simply a paycheck. Along with life moving on, quite often the affection, the SF, the intimacy of the relationship gets put on the back burner. Us guys interpret this as "they don't want nor need us."

Your affairs reinforce this deep seeded fear. So what do you need him in your life for? You clearly can find other men to introduce into your life, what makes him special to YOU? You need to answer that question for yourself and then you need to answer it for him. "because I love you" is NOT going to get it done. Love is an action and your actions have not been all that loving in the past. Do you see what I am digging at here?



Coupled with his previous comments you can easily see why this is soooo important to him. He will need to know what you have changed within you, to protect him and your marriage. He will need to see where HE failed and I KNOW he feels he was NOT good enough for you. He needs to know what love is to you, given that your actions clearly showed you did NOT love him. What has changed L4? That is what he is after. What insights have you gained?



Being a rational man, anyone outside being rational would wonder the same thing and arrive at the same conclusion. You see here is a problem for you to consider. If he felt you were a good person, and that you had good boundaries and morals, then clearly for you to violate these you must have been desperate to get away from him and that you did just settle. He knows he is not the best looking, the brightest, the wealthiest, the anythingist. He is just a guy like many others, nothing special. He knows this about himself very well. The damage to his self-esteem is reinforcing this and you need to find a way to counter it.




I don't think I have to say much about this comment. He sensed your first affair, even if he could not put his finger on it. He has experienced you latest affair. His voice is telling him based on the data that he would be better off gone. Why? Because the voice doesn't know if you have changed your perspective on him, if you have changed your boundaries, if you have changed your views about him, and finally his little voice is trying to protect him from the pain of being rejected...again.

You have to consider this and hopefully address it.




This goes back to the voice in his head. He knows he was/is very very vulnerable to you, he needs you, you don't need him. You do things for his life, that he does not do for yours. Therefore, he is in the weak position and the voice is trying to protect him. You can bet lots of money he is and has been very very uncomfortable living in the position of the "weak one", knowing he was really at your mercy. It seems he was right, the question is he right now?




He needs much more than you telling him this. He needs details, he needs the concerns above addressed. He needs to hear what you have said, but he needs to know more. He needs to understand what the balance of power in this marriage is going to be and he did not like it much the way it was. Some more things for you to consider.




You do need to be thinking, and you need to answer these questions for yourself before you can honestly answer them for him. It will be your call. I hope you understand his statements better after my suggestions. He is trying to protect himself because he KNOWS how much power you have over him, and he doubts that you really need him. If you do need him in your life you need to tell him why, and not just that you love him. He is going to need something to hang on to, and he knows you told you loved him while you were having an affair.

I do hope that something I have said is of help to you.

God Bless,


JL

Probably helped more than this one poster!
:happythanksgiving:

JL,

Excellent post.

L4, it sure seems to me that your husband is very thoughtful and also that he cares about you and your happiness. One of the things that the A told me about my W was that she did not care about my happiness. That seems minor in the whole scheme of the A but it really stuck with me over the years, that I did not count very much to my W.

Everything you H is saying tells you that you and your happiness count to him. I'm wondering if there is a way you can give him that same feeling. I don't mean the feeling that you need him for financial and domestic support but the actual feeling that you care about his happiness for it's own sake.

Could you find a way to make that clear to him, if it is true? It is going to be hard but I think you can do it.

This is fantastic, JustLearning. Thank you very much. I've never thought of it this way -- that he feels weak and that I have the power. I've been thinking just the opposite. You've provided amazing insight. Thank you for taking the time to spell it out for me.

Thanks, 6YL. I hope you're right.

How much time do you have?

We've been everywhere several times and back again. I'm still so confused I haven't even been able to update y'all here because I feel like what I write is going to be scrambled and rambling. But I'll try.

Last Friday H wrote me an email he titled "A Long Good-bye". It explained how he is just a simple man and how I need someone who's more colorful, more layered, and can offer me more excitement. He again talked about how he thinks I don't care for him, how I never loved him, and how he was blinded by his love for me to see how deeply troubled I was and our marriage was. I read the email and went to him. We held each other, cried, and talked for 90 minutes, with him saying over and over that it's okay and he wants me to be happy. And me saying over and over that I want to be happy with him and that he can't say good-bye. FWIW, we ended the discussion with sex right there in the TV room.

Saturday morning he approached me and said I have his permission to contact the OM and that he will not tell the OM's BW if I do. He said that he has no allegiance to her and I am welcome to pursue the OM with no consequence from my H. (What?!) I told him absolutely not. I do not want to have a relationship with the OM and I am married to H. H kept saying, "I'm just saying if you change your mind, I won't stand in your way." I thanked him and told him his offer wouldn't be acted on. That I'm his W and I am married to H. I don't care what happens to OM.

He spent the weekend doing things with his dad and brothers. We didn't talk again until Monday night.

Monday he asked me if I ever felt sorry for him. I said no. He kept asking me over and over to come clean with him if I've ever pitied him. I said that I didn't. I felt he was handling things with great dignity. He then retrieved a notebook of mine. It was one I used last summer along with a bunch of relationship books and self-help manuals as I was trying to figure out what's going on with me. I have taken all of my things out of hiding and have kept my office open so he's open to snoop all he wants. Well in my notebook, there was an exercise that said to write all the things that made me think I needed to leave the relationship. Among all the things I wrote, was a line "I feel sorry for him." Now, I don't remember what I felt sorry about. Was it that he didn't know about the affair? That he didn't know how close I was to walking out? That his health was so bad? That his job is so stressful? But he hung on that one statement as me yet again being a liar. I really don't remember thinking I feel sorry for him as a sad sap, which is how he took it. Virtually everything else on the list (and it was brutal) I had told him -- how I thought he was selfish, how he undermines me, how I don't like how he controls our money, how scarey his temper is... Most everything else he knew yet he was stuck on that one sentence that didn't have any definition to it. I told him how I have never regretted marrying him but I do regret not having worked harder to either save us or split up 3 or 4 years ago when things started going bad. I shared with him more details about the OM that he asked about. I even told him he had to throw away a brand new shirt that H had just bought (and looked great in) because it too closely resembled the shirt OM was wearing when he professed his attraction to me. We talked for 4 hours Monday night. And again, ended up making love. And he let me stay in our bedroom for the night.

Tuesday he asked me more about the list of his faults, and said it really hurts him to see that. I told him that I know it does and I'm sorry he read it. He said he knows I told him those things, but to see it in writing makes it more real and he can't believe I felt that about him -- my husband. He said in the overall scheme of things with the affairs, it's a little thing, but it still really hurts to know that's where I was. I told him that is where I WAS in August. But once we started going to MC and in the last few weeks as we've been really talking, many of those concerns have been reversed. I asked him if he wants a list of all the things I do like. He just smiled. I'm going to do that for him and asked if he could consider not reading the list any more. I won't take it away from him because I don't want to interfere in what he needs to do through all this. I just asked that he consider putting the notebook away or tearing out those pages.

Tuesday night we got into a pretty heated discussion where he shared with me that he doesn't think I care about his needs. That when he's hurting and when he wants my empathy, that he doesn't feel that he gets it from me like he needs. It was really eye-opening. I was dumbfounded by how deeply he felt about past incidents and how I handled them.

So he asked me to send him an email about why I feel it necessary to lie (or used to anyway) and why I won't do it going forward. He also wanted to know how I was going to meet some of his needs and what some of my needs are. (No, he still won't do the ENQ.) So I did. I also emailed him that I needed a break Wednesday if we could -- that I wanted to be with him, but could we avoid conversation about the A, my cheating, my lies, our relationship and just do something mindless like watch Top Chef? He responded with the following: "I am really happy to see that you are growing stronger each day. I'm not sure if its the drugs your taking, but I believe it has more to do with your own inner healing. I know I have been praying for your spirits to rise. I am also aware I have delivered plenty of pain on your doorstep lately. I'm glad you're sticking up for yourself, and I'm glad you're here for me. It is nice to see you smiling more often. We are both exhausted."

One thing that's bothering me... He seems really obsessed with my body. He told me the other day that he couldn't believe how hot I looked this summer when I was back to my high school weight. Now let me put this in perspective... I'm 42, 5'5", and gave birth to 2 kids. My Weight Watchers ideal weight is 138. Due to my stress and gum surgery that I had (couldn't eat solid foods for 3 weeks), I got down to 115 and in many people's opinions, I looked emaciated. I was down to a size 2. I'm now a size 6. Most of our adult relationship I've been an 8. Yesterday during an IM he asked if I lost my weight this last year for the OM. I said the truth -- no. That I lost it for me and if he recalls, I started the program before the A even started, but yes, having the OM tell me I looked great was definitely added incentive. We were talking about my body journey and my H wrote "You're heavy now and I still want to do you." I was heartbroken. I'm a size 6, 128 pounds. I couldn't believe it. He started back-peddling, saying he thinks I look great. That he thought I had said I'm heavy and he was only repeating what I had said. That he finds me sexy, etc. But it really hurt. He apologized. I told him that whether I'm a size 4 or a size 24, I need him to think I'm beautiful. Later, as if to make me feel better, he stated that one of the problems when I was too skinny is I that I lost a lot of my chest too. I said, "Well it's either skinny and no boobs, or heavy with boobs." He said, "You can fix that. Just get implants. That would be great." And he was serious. (He's brought this up before too in the last few years since I've had our babies.) Will I ever be perfect enough for him? I have body issues and big-time self-esteem issues. And he knows this. Yet he still has to get his remarks in.

This is a tough road. I'm still in the guest room but we're continuing to talk a lot. I'm learning more about his hurts, concerns, and desires, and this is good. I feel very close to him, but I also feel it's time to put up my boundaries. (Or is it too soon to go there?) I'm being clear that if we are to stay together, we have a lot of work to do and I have needs also -- that I won't go back to where we've been. He feels the same way. The questions continue and I'm being radically honest. He's still in the discovery/processing stage. He needs to decide if he wants to try to trust me again -- if he thinks he can ever believe me again.

So that's where we are. In limbo. Still struggling. Still working. Still supporting each other. Still processing. We haven't put a time limit on it. Right now we're both just doing what we can. He said he still can't forgive me and he doesn't know if he can stay. I told him if he wants to try to regain trust and respect, I'm here.

L4,

It seems you are making progress. In regards to the body comments, men do care about looks and he probably does not believe that you did not lose weight to look hot for OM.

I have reread you comments and I think you really really need to convince your H that you care about his happiness and his feelings. He is telling you directly that he does not think you care about his feelings and you jumped right to your own concerns about body image.

How can you convince him that his feelings are important to you? I'm thinking you could offer to do the implants and make it clear you would be doing it for him.

L4,

Given what you have just posted please go back to my previous post, do you see what I am talking about?

He is struggling with himself and where he fits in all of this. He is even offering to let you go back to OM, which is nuts, but gives you an idea of how he feels he fits with your desires.

Trust me your weight is, as 6years has said, is something he notices but I would bet good money it is because he associates your changes to the affair and what you were willing to do for OM. Most men are really not as sensitive to it as women are.

You said many things about him, but the one thing most men cannot handle well is pity. I have been thinking about this and I have to say upon reflection that most guys I know, KNOW very realistically that they are "simple" men without great looks. But, the one thing most men have is pride, and for someone to feel sorry for them deeply wounds their pride. Hence his focus on this one thing. He is probably accepting all of the other negative things you have said as true and how you feel about him, but pity???? Oh Man! that hurts.

Just thoughts I hope something helps.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Let me take this one step further. Mercy sex hurts men as well, and thus the issues might extend to what happened with OM and what you did to coverup your affair by having sex with him although really wanting OM. Us guys have a real hard time with that one as well. It is very much like pity.

PSS: There was something else I wanted to say. You quoted him as saying You said you were heart broken. I look at this comment completely different from you. He is saying you are not a 2 but he still desires you. YOu could be an 8 and he still desires you. You are heart broken because he desires you????

Now I will confess, after all of the years I have been married I have no idea what a 2, 6, or 8 is other than even numbers divisible by 2.

The sex we've been having is far from mercy sex. He has been initiating it and we've both been enjoying it very much. We've been doing things we've never done before and elaborating on things we've always liked. We made love rarely before my confession so while it's very odd, neither of us are complaining about this change in course the last 3 weeks.


It was the "you're heavy now" part. The fact that he thought I was heavy when I weigh 30 pound less than where I was a year ago. It goes back to 7 years ago when my husband said he's not attracted to me and doesn't find me sexually desireable when I"m heavy. He told me this when I was a size 12 - 14, after I had given birth to our son. ("I can't get it up when you look like that" is how he put it.) So when he mentions anything even remotely negative about my body image, I go back to the thoughts that he doesn't find me desireble. A knee-jerk reaction. And again, he did apologize for it so we're good.


Good point. For reference, models are size 0 or maybe a 2 on a bad day. The average American woman is a size 14. Marilyn Monroe is said to have been a 12 - 14. And yes, you can always divide by 2.

Thanks again for your comments, JL.

The idea of putting foreign objects in my body for cosmetic reasons only frightens me. I've always been a believer that this is how God made me so I can only work with what I got. It's how I was when my H met me 25 years ago, and how I've always been. So for him to want me to undergo surgery and risk health problems just for a bigger chest for him to enjoy seems like he's being selfish. Or am I being overly sensitive? Cost has much to do with not doing it too. Overall, this isn't important so no need to spend time on it. I was just giving an example of one of the little things he does/says that makes me self-conscious.

And I agree that I can tell him the change in my looks was for me but that he won't believe it. That makes sense.

Yesterday H walked into the room where I was and he told me he is done. He wants a divorce. Earlier in the day he had asked me who said "I love you" first in my affair and I admitted it was me. H said that was the deal-breaker. It didn't matter that OM said it back. It mattered that I said it first.

I held it together for a while but then started fighting his decision. Telling him how things have changed for us so much in the last weeks for the better. How we're different today than we were back in April. How the A is over, OM has been out of my life for 5 months, and that OM will never be back in it. How I know now that I didn't love OM but it was all part of the infamous "fog". How I'm married to H and I love H and I want to be with H.

After an hour of hugging and crying, H said he just knows that he can't give me what I need. That I must feel I need to go outside of our marriage to fill the holes he can't fill. And he can't live with me knowing that I'm capable doing that. (All going right to what Just Learning has been saying.) I told him we can take steps and affair-proof our relationship, take care of each other's emotional needs, and neither of us will look elsewhere. I told him I will never cheat again and if I even feel remotely tempted, I will turn to H to help me. He said he feels like he's been in a 14-round fight and he just can't get up off the matt any more. I said that I'll lift him then. He said he knows he'll never be able to trust me. I asked him to let me prove that he can eventually. And I told him if he wants a divorce, he has to file. I'll have nothing to do with it.

He ends by saying last week he was 90% sure he is leaving me, and today he is 95%. I said it sounds like there is still a chance then. He said yes. There is a sliver of a chance he will change his mind.

Then, out of the blue, he shares with me that he has a fantasy of watching me sitting by myself in a restaurant in a sexy red dress. Just watching me. So I got a last-minute babysitter, and we went shopping for a red dress for me and all the things that go with it. He said I can only wear the dress for him. We came home and he let me sleep in our room all night.

Now back to daylight and he's accusing me of things that aren't true (of course he doesn't trust me), drilling more questions that I'm answering, and back to saying this isn't going to work. Ey-karumba! During the day he's one person, then at night he's another. It's fair, of course considering, and to be expected. But exhausting too because I literally don't know if he's staying or going. He even said this morning, "Do you think that I'm messing with your head? That I'm enjoying this?" I answered yes in a perverse way he's enjoying it. But I'm willing to put up with it if it means we're still together.

I sent him a list today of all the things I love about him and why I want to stay his wife. He thanked me for it and said it was very nice to read. I hope he refers to it often. And I'll be sure to tell him these things often as well.

L4,

H said he just knows that he can't give me what I need. That I must feel I need to go outside of our marriage to fill the holes he can't fill.

Sounds like he thinks he can't compete with the younger, taller does he make more money? OM.

I had mentioned it to you previously, but you dismissed it with a feminine wave of the hand, that competition really matters to men. We sometimes think in binary win or lose.

A major fear men have is of being replaced, because we know that women for the most part have more choice than we do, if a woman wishes to compromise herself on any given night she can.

From previous posts it does seem that your H is in the category of men who would be capable of getting lucky predictably, but in his case he chose not to.

God Bless
NJ

H makes more money. (We're financially in the black, I know OM is in the red.) H is better looking. OM is taller and younger. They're really pretty different from each other in a lot of respects. So you are probably right in that H feels it's a competition and he can't compete. I'm trying to reassure that he can and he's won. If he wants to stay...

L4,

You want to shock him??? Tell him he doesn't have to trust you. You and he can set up any checking he would like, you are game. You have nothing to hide therefore, he is free to check as much as he likes or wants.

You two are about what 6 months out on this thing. At about that time most BS's show a great deal of anger and start to really address their pain. Sometimes it is a bit later and sometimes it is a bit earlier. But, it comes.

Perhaps it has come for your H. I would suggest that perhaps you put your thoughts about him down on paper. Just as you did when making your deliberations a few years ago. But, just don't put thoughts with regard to his strengths and weaknesses, put down to the best of your knowledge why things have changed and how you see them now vs. how you used to see them.

He is haunted by his own failure. I know you see this but I don't think you fully realize how deep the sense of failure goes.
He feels he cannot compete. What he somehow needs to learn is he does not have to compete, what he needs to be is the man he is and your partner in life, the person you can lean on and he can lean on you.

I think given what he has focused on, he needs to see some of your thoughts in writing.

Just a thought.

God Bless,

JL

L4,

Just another thought. Have you ever acknowledged to your H that you KNOW he is afraid and that you are afraid as well. You know he is afraid he isn't good enough, and you are afraid he will leave you and not let you love him.

It is perhaps something you two could work on and help each other with...your fears.

They really are very much the same thing it seems to me.

God Bless,

JL

L4,

I'm wondering if there is some way you can address two issues at once. I think you H probably does feel inferior to the OM, I felt that way even though I am taller, better looking, make more money, am more educated, younger, physically more impressive and he was nearly impotent. I think men just feel that when their woman takes another man to bed. I also think he feels that you don't care about his feelings.

Perhaps you could switch the focus off of you're happiness and onto his in your next discussion. I know that if xW had ever had a serious discussion where she told me that my happiness was number one on her list of priorities, then I would have had a serious change in attitude toward her. If you can actually get him to see that you are focused on winning him back, not just taking him as the consolation prize it would help for sure.

When one partner has an A, then the other partner really does go to the bottom of the list of priorities. Usually they get just enough to keep them around but no more. I am sure that you did this to him.

I was 99.9% sure I was going to leave my husband after his affair - I'm not gone 13 years later!

THERE IS HOPE!

Look at this post

link

the meat of that post is:




You can reverse this as you talk to your wounded husband ...

I did NOT have my A because of any failure of yours
I had my A because I failed to protect myself where I was vulnerable
YOU have ZERO responsibility of my decision
I OWN my decision, and by doing so, I understand what it is about myself that I MUST change , no matter what happens to our marriage