So that it's acting from freedom, you choosing to stay today. Instead of from imprisonment, you are stuck staying as punsihment for past decisions.

Actually, I didn't hear ANY of the things that you were choosing between last night. What were they?

Do you mean what did I do or think of doing? I tried to talk to him while we were waiting at Denny's about speaking out loud when he decides something. That if he had done that, we could have planned Saturday better and not gotten stressed out, because I would have changed the appointments I had made to look at cars, to fit his assignment in. What I was thinking of doing was going in her bedroom when I found out he had gone in there and they were arguing. But I didn't. Because I've been told here that I should let her fight her own fights. But I remembered IC telling me to protect her. So I didn't know if I should go in and help her discuss it with him. I listened at the door for awhile, and as usual, he was blaming all her 'bad' attitude on her exbf, the one he has vilified as causing all our problems.

*sigh*

Boundaries is probably the one I'm getting next after HNHN.

I'm trying to change my outlook, but it's so darned hard to turn off those automatic responses, you know? Basically, I'm just too tired to want to work that hard. I need to start exercising again.

Do you mean what did I do or think of doing? I tried to talk to him while we were waiting at Denny's about speaking out loud when he decides something. That if he had done that, we could have planned Saturday better and not gotten stressed out, because I would have changed the appointments I had made to look at cars, to fit his assignment in.

Thanks for reminding me, cat, I thought that was SO COOL to read you with your O&H! Was it like a thoughtful request "How would you feel about," negotiation, or a thoughtful persuasion?

From Thoughtful Persuasion

• Step #1: Clearly state your conflicting beliefs to each other.
• Step 2: Explain how your beliefs are in your spouse's best interest.
• Step 3: Suggest a test of your belief.(Like a 2 hour or 2 week trial run)
• Step 4: Give your spouse an opportunity to persuade you.
• Step 5: If your tests fails to persuade, drop the subject.

I think it's SO cool that you chose this over staying quiet! Conquering that LB of dishonesty!

What I was thinking of doing was going in her bedroom when I found out he had gone in there and they were arguing. But I didn't. Because I've been told here that I should let her fight her own fights. But I remembered IC telling me to protect her. So I didn't know if I should go in and help her discuss it with him. I listened at the door for awhile, and as usual, he was blaming all her 'bad' attitude on her exbf, the one he has vilified as causing all our problems.

Sorry to hear that, cat. You'll get it straightened out with the IC. It's hard for them to give you enough information the first go round, sometimes takes some trial and error.

Has he stopped those comments and the touching?

Boundaries is probably the one I'm getting next after HNHN

Cat, I think you'll get a lot out of it! What about the Love Busters book?


I'm trying to change my outlook, but it's so darned hard to turn off those automatic responses, you know? Basically, I'm just too tired to want to work that hard. I need to start exercising again.

I hear you, that's why we get all these opportunities to practice LOL. Tired, I hear you there, too Are you getting enough sleep? How would you feel about doing without the alcohol for 2 weeks? To see if you do better without a depressant in your system?

Hi Cat, I think all three of you are way too enmeshed to separate easily. Its a painful process because you disturb the status quo. Your dh has fallen into the trap of thinking that "because I want it, everyone will want it. If everyone doesn't want it, it's because they don't love me, because if they loved me, they'd want what I want".

To some extend I think that dh sees you all as a single unit, you and dh and dd against the mean, evil world. Please don't beat yourself up over having made what you see as bad choices. You do the best you can, with what knowledge you have at the time.

The thing about dh wanting to make a big ticket splurge for dd is kind of a guy thing. If you were to assess a point value for a big item, you might give it a 5, and dh a 5000. DD probably saw getting to the restaurant as a 5, new car a 5, and fighting with dad a -5000. However, you won't be able to convince dh that this occurs.

Try not to berate yourself too much over this. Even if you had done all the right things over the years, your dh and dd would likely still be fighting now. She's ready to leave the nest, and she needs to break free.

Is it possible to help dd establish some boundaries with dad regarding the lengthy brow-beating when dad thinks she's in the wrong? An hour's debate seems way too long. Would it be possible to let her tell dad "Dad, I hear what you're saying, but I need to take a break now. I'll talk to you more about this later, tomorrow, whatever."

So if your DH says "You are not appreciative enough, we are taking the car back," would he really do that? Are you stepping in because you think he really will? What if you don't step in? Would he take the car away or is he just talking big?

So if he said
"She is not appreciative enough, we are taking the car back,"
what if you said:
"That is what you think, huh?"
and stay out of it.

Also, anytime your daughter has to be some place at a certain time and your husband wants to join at the last moment to fit another errand in, tell him to meet you there as it never seems to work out for your DD!

That's a great idea. I'll go over it with her. I think that's something I'd have to practice with her, so she can do it on her own. Thanks.

wbh, that is just him talking big. He does it all the time. That's why I wasn't worried about it, he was just grasping at straws to regain control. i was more worried about the browbeating he was giving her without me there to protect her.

D18 suggested to me that night that a friend of hers put up a calendar, and everything that everyone wants to do has to be put on the calendar. If it's not on there, no one has to honor it!

I told H that I was going to get that calendar, and how it was going to work. I did, haven't hung it up yet. Anyway, I think it's an excellent compromise. I am hopeful.

Sorry I'm being so distracted with all this. I had jury summons today - and got picked(!) - so I'm swamped with work and buying D18's car and catching up here and trying to find a bus to downtown for the next 3 days for the trial.

Anyway, it wasn't exactly a thoughtful request, but I was being O&H with him, so that felt good. It's such a rare thing, me telling him what I think, that it felt really good to do so. It was a DJ, but it wasn't, because it was more in the vein of desperation of trying to find a solution for everyone, you know?

Hi Cat, Gmail has a great calendar, and it allows you to easily share it with others. We actually use it at work for our group because it works better than the heavy-duty calendaring system that the rest of the company uses.

You can even tell it to SMS you with warnings for upcoming meetings. DH might be more accepting of electronic warnings than those from his spouse.

Happy, that's a great idea, but my H is...just weird when it comes to that stuff. He still formats his files by spacing over to the next column instead of learning how to tab. I've tried and tried to get him to step up. He even has a PDA phone, and he won't use the calendar on it; too technical. And he's been in consumer electronics industry his whole life! But you're right. I need to start working on that. I have already taken over paying his bills electronically, so that's a big step - he was procrastinating and having to pay by phone and paying $15-$30 a pop for phone payments! At least I've gotten rid of that, and gotten some of his interest rates reduced. So next step might be me syncing him with my calendar.

Cat, kudos to you! What was it about that night that oyou were willling to try out the O&H? Is it something that you can tap into again?

One thing we noticed in the past, is that your H didn't go to "change back" behavior. He listened to you, even if he didn't agree. Was that the case this time, too?

I was reading through the earlier part of my thread, and I got to the part where you would tell your H something, and let him interpret how he felt about it. Thanks again for sharing that, becuase it helped me let go of the response at the time. Do you remember that? Do you still do that?

It's an active thought, at least, these days, to let him interpret and let go of it. Don't always succeed, but at least I'm aware of it.

We finished the trial today, and the kid (24) pled guilty, but we had to set the punishment. Two girls, two guys, they decide to rob this 40-something year old married man who'd been 'paying attention' to one of the girls and giving her money. The attempted robbery (the man always kept $500 on him for work) turned into aggrivated robbery because he ended up getting stabbed multiple times, including the throat, and almost died. Had to learn to walk again, his whole stomach a big knot of scars. Anyway, the boy we were trying kept denying denying denying. We watched the interview tape, and I felt like I was in a tv show, it was so surreal. Every time he got caught in a lie, he'd admit a little; then a little more; then a little more. He had 3 prior misdemeanors, his lawyer wanted probation; DA wanted life. We ended up giving him 50 years. Ir was so hard! He did such a good job of looking remorseful, but he lied so much! And I wanted to do right by the victim, who almost died. It was just so stressful. I've never been responsible for sending someone to prison before. So glad it's over.

Sounds like such a stressful thing. My sister is waiting to hear if she'll be called back too. She's so hoping it's settled out of court. I was called once but was recuperating from something at the time and was excused.

They say it's a right and a responsibility, but it does disrupt our personal lives to serve.

Thanks for doing the responsible thing, Cat. I'm sure it was difficult. I know I would have had a hard time with it too.

Wow, cat, what a tough thing to go through. I'm glad that we have folks like you making the tough decisions.

I had a chance to O&H with H tonight, and I didn't take it. But I realized the reason I don't is that I don't just think of it in terms of a chance to be honest; I think of it as a choice and possible consequence given today's happenings - I don't or can't separate my expectations and my teaching from what I want/need.

Today was super stressful. We have a chance to get a business going that would make us millionaires. We ran into someone who can get the money to get it going; he's going out of town today, and H stayed up all night to go over his previous business plan for the business and update it, so he could print it out and provide a disk for the man to take with him on his trip. We worked and worked and worked, one setback after another, until he gave up and said the man had already left; we went to wash/wax D18's new car, and the man called and said he'd been on the phone all day so couldn't take H's calls, and that he was already on the plane. So the opportunity is up in the air.

Anyway, he seemed better after that. I worked with him and D18 to get the new car waxed, then took a bath with H and massaged him and gave him SF. I had taken two prescription pain pills today for my plantar fasciitis and painful feet (I am hobbling around, it hurts so much), and it did no good. Anyway, we're in the bath, he's satisfied, we're content, I mention how badly my feet hurt; mention that I've take two pills and it did no good. Obviously, I'm hoping for at least some concern, if not a footrub.

So I say that, and he says 'My nose is messed up and bleeding (from 'having' to clean the catbox this morning).' No acknowledgment that I even said anything, just turning it back onto him needing TLC. Common for us, him not even hearing or acknowledging that I spoke.

I knew I was supposed to say something about feeling ignored. I thought about it as we got dressed, even walked back into the room to tell him. But I chickened out, knowing all the stressors of today. I let my assumption of what he would do guide me.

*sigh*

Cat, what can you do to reduce that pain? My mom is a nurse, and spent double shifts on her feet. She would ask me to rub her feet for her, and I did, glad for that one on one time together when there were so many kids in the house. I still do that for her sometimes, not often enough. Would you be enthusiastic about asking your H for a foot rub? What about your daughter?

What are you and your H doing waxing her car? Do you need help brainstorming RC ideas? LOL

Did you ever get those boots? A few bucks now is better than taking time off work when your feet get too painful to walk on. You are always reminding me to let go of my unreasonable expectations and do something kind for myself. And I thank you for that! You can let DD17 wash her own car, and rest those painful feet! Your feet aren't going to fix themselves, it just gets progressively worse.

I don't mean to come at you with all these assumptions, sorry! What would make you enthusiastic about getting some relief for your feet?

Lately, Cat, you sound resentful about providing this SF. What would make you enthusiastic about chaanging this up? Maybe you two can think of ways to meet his need that are easier for you two?

I've heard the guys post about how they can fall into a rut of looking to get all their ENs met through SF. Maybe you and your H can spend more RC time together, and then he wouldn't need so much SF to feel connected to you?

I've asked H and D18 to rub my feet, and both are unenthusiastic about it. H will do it for 2 or 3 minutes, if I press the issue, and then stop. D18 is very unenthusiastic about it, being spoiled and all, and I end up being embarrassed for wanting this from her. I know that's not healthy, but I've spent my whole life being told and taught not to be a burden to anyone.

And we washed the car because it's brand new, and H wanted to make sure it got a super good wax job on it before she starts driving it. She was helping, too. But H is a perfectionist, so he basically redid everything we did because it wasn't done good enough.

I have one of the boots, and I use it to sleep, but it doesn't last the whole day. I need to get a better handle on exercises to do; the ones I'm doing don't work well. I may have to get the surgery to fix it.

I'm not resentful providing SF, because I feel compassionate for him. And it's usually me instigating it, because I know he'll want it, and I'd rather have it go the way I want, i.e. I'd rather do HJ than intercourse. But I'm getting resentful in that the 2 or 3 things I really need - DS, foot rubs, shoulder rubs - he just doesn't have a drive to provide it.

There's that darned O&H again.

Is it really that your daughter is spoiled that she doesn't want to rub your feet?

I always rubbed my Mom's feet, but nobody else did-and I was no more or less spoiled than the rest of them. They are not particularly touchy, and the idea kind of grossed them out.

I think it's unfair to say that because someone doesn't want to rub your feet, it makes them selfish.

My husband is one of those people who will do something physical for me for only a few minutes. HE doesn't mean to be hurtful, he just gets distracted in his head.

If your feet hurt, and you need them rubbed, let me suggest the following:

1) A generic massager (they have some with these heat radiators, and they are cheap).

2) A foot massager: They have all sorts of variation, including ones that are warm, vibrate, immerse your feet in water, and more.

3) A professional foot massage once every two weeks.

Seems to me that taking care of yourself and helping yourself feel better should not depend on someone else's generosity, or willingness to do something that may not appeal to them.

FInd ways to make your feet feel better that do not require you to "ask" or "embarass" yourself in the event they say no--which they are fully entitled to do.

Telly, I didn't mean to sound like I was whining. I don't go around thinking gee I wish one of you would rub my feet. I'm just describing what has happened the few (less than 5) times I have asked either of them for help.

Maybe it's my skewed perspective. My mom has psoriasis, which is triggered by stress. When my dad left, her psoriasis got so bad that her entire body was covered and all her hair fell out cos the scabs suffocated her hair. Every night when she went to bed, for about a year, maybe two, I would rub baby oil all over her body and she would put on a plastic sweat suit and sleep in it, trying to get the scabs under control. I also turned it into a massage a lot of the time, cos she was under such stress.

It grossed me out, but she was my mom, you know?

My comment about D18 was about the fact that we've always given her anything she wants, so she has no desire or need to please people or prove herself or give. That's her one fault. We washed and waxed her new car, and I literally had to sit down and explain to her that since we had put $5000 down on her car, it seemed a little ungrateful that she couldn't be bothered to at least come outside for 5 minutes and help wipe the wax down. She did, grudgingly, and then ran back inside after 5 minutes. Just how she is. She bends over backwards to help her friends, though. A lot like her dad.

I do the exercises. I wear the orthotics. I have the massager. I have the water massager, too. And I have the hot tub bathtub I use to run on the feet. Frankly, none of it moves the muscles the way it needs. I can't afford a professional massage, as we are massively in debt. So I will continue to do it myself as best I can. If it gets bad enough, I'll go for the surgery. Which I'll take care of myself, since my H said he can't take off work.

The only reason I posted was to say that I at least realized that when I make a decision to talk or not, I am filtering the decision through the day's events, which I know is unhealthy. I know I need to speak my mind without first worrying if H has had a bad day and will blow up. That seems like a long way away, though.