Cat, I'm sorry that you got your hopes up, and then let down. We've talked before about making backup plans. Does your brother live close enough that he can help when your H is not enthusiastic? Or another friend? Would that help you and H find POJA?

Are you two planning and getting the RC time you need? Not just the TV/video thing. Or is the way you two do home projects together so fulfilling for both of you that you consider that RC time? I ask because you don't sound like it was fun for you at all, and there may be other things that would be more fun.

Did you talk to your H about the frustrations that you expressed here? Because you see him as your ally?

No, I didn't talk to him about it. As far as he's concerned, he has done me a huge gift by painting the whole kitchen for me (until we ran out of paint at 1am). The thing is, he expects me to stay with him while he paints and be his gofer (hold this tray, hand me that rag, move that drop cloth, give me the ladder, etc.). So it's not like I can go and enjoy myself doing something else. Several times I said "I can paint, too" or "Why don't you let me paint that part?" He just ignores me and continues to paint.

You know we don't have any sort of communication going. And we have the unspoken understanding that he makes the decisions, and if I go a different way, i.e. disobey, a fiasco ensues. If I were to bring in someone else to help me paint, it would be akin to having an affair in his eyes. It just isn't done. We don't do things that alter from what he sees needs to be done. Because we have an atmosphere with that unspoken understanding that he knows what's best for us. He's the man, the father, the husband.

And because I've never spoken up to him, (DJ here) I truly think he can't even understand the concept that what I want would be different from what he wants. I mean, I know he knows I was upset because every time I started doing anything but being gofer or putting up the painters' tape, he would stop me because, in his mind, I simply couldn't be trusted to do it right.

Even getting another gallon of paint. I was going to get it today; there's a Home Depot 3 blocks from my work. But he took the lid from me so he could get it. If I were to ask him out loud why he did that, as I have in the past, he would say it's because he wants to make sure we (I) don't get it mixed wrong. Just yesterday, we were talking about something that needed to be done and he said something like 'so you don't do it wrong' and I called him out on it - "What makes you think I will do it wrong?" and he said "We. I meant we." "But you said you." "Well, I didn't mean it."

He did.

The first 10 years of our marriage was spent remodeling his house. I had this environment the whole 10 years, him taking things away from me because he can do it better, I'll mess up, I don't know how to do it right, it's quicker if he does it, we don't have enough wood to waste on mistakes...We always did it on his schedule, we usually got started and never stopped until we were finished, even if we worked 20 hours straight and didn't stop til 8am the next day. If I tried to say I wanted to stop, he'd either go "no, just wait, we're almost done" or he would go "Fine! Go ahead and leave me doing all the work!", depending on his mood.

Like I said, it's been so long since we did repair work that I forgot how demeaning it was. How demoralizing.

I hope I can sit down with him afterward (or before) and tell him how it's making me feel.

Cat, I hear you, about this understanding that you speak of. I thought that you two were ready to move on from that. I thought that you were ready to move on from that.

Cat, how about looking at your fears, and addressing them. Maybe you think that your H would yell at you. I can see why you'd think that. You could go to a public place, and he would be removed from the premises if he doesn't stop yelling in public like that. Cat, what I'm trying to say is that there are protections for folks in your situation.

You could tell him, that you want a new relationship with him, one with no yelling, no punishment, no demeaning. You can make it happen, even if he's not on board.

I still think, cat, that you are getting far less emotional support than you need to make changes here.

You were afraid at one point that your H would retaliate by preventing your DD18 from going away to school. Do you still feel this way?

Cat,

Why, why, WHY did you go out side with him and help him do the bumper? WHY did you spend three hours doing that?!

Who cares that he asked you... who cares that he might have been upset... What difference did it make?!

You are acting like he is MAKING you do these things. It's infuriating to read. YOU are making YOURSELF do these things.

1) Under no circumstances should you have gone out to work on the car, when you were already beginning your OWN project (the room).

2) Do NOT let him take stuff away from you when you are working. Make sure you have TWO of everything (paintbrushes, etc) so that he can get his OWN. And if he takes it from you, you stop and look hi m firmly in the eye and say "don't do that!"

3) If you have to do projects yourself because he has a pissy pitty party then do it yourself. Recruit your daughter if you need to, and if she doesn't want to help, TOO BAD! and if your husband wants to re-do it because he doesn't like your work, then it's ON HIM, and he does it ALONE.

4) STOP letting him control you. You are relinquishing control, Cat, over and over again! QUIT giving him the time/attention/help that you give him.

YOU are maintaining this relationship, and allowing him to treat you like crap--and you need to stop.

And by the way, I'll bet if you had respond to his gruff request "aren't you going to help me" by sweetly saying "Oh, I'm actually going to start painting here" he might well have come in to "help" out of fear that you would do it wrong.

But if he didn't? If he was a [censored]? SO WHAT! Poja does not really work with your husband. Furthermore, it's time to face the reality that you giving and giving and giving DOES NOT WORK. You need to let his bad mood roll right past you. In my opinion, a good portion of your problem is that you take on his stuff.

I know you're in pain. I know it seems easier to try to make things as smooth as possible. But that's not the right answer. Take responsibility for yourself and yourself only.

Edited to add:

ANd if your tired, GO TO BED. If he's mad, so waht?! You say, "Gee, its too bad we didn't start this earlier. Now I'm too tired to finish. Good night."

THE END. Why are you taking all his timelines, his expectations, his everything onto yourself? Do you even see that you are doing this?!

Telly's absolutely right.

You say yourself that he doesn't see anything wrong, because you've never spoken up.

How would someone with healthier expectations have reacted?

I'm not saying I'm in a perfectly healthy relationship, but if I wanted to paint instead of being a gopher while he did car things, I would have said "I was planning to paint today" and gone off to paint.

If he started taking things away from me and re-doing what I'd done, I would've walked away to go read a book or watch tv or play with the kids.

If he was still working after the point when I wanted to go to bed, I would've said "My feet are hurting and I have to get up in 6 hours. I'm going to bed." and I would've gone to bed.

If he ranted and raved, I would've asked him to stop his AO.

If he didn't, I would've gone to a hotel for the night.

Telly, believe me, I am completely aware of what I am doing. I am not claiming he is making me do anything - I'm mad at myself because I'm not stopping it and valuing myself. So on top of being a full-time Giver and letting him manipulate me, I spend every minute of it hating myself for allowing it. Living like this with him for 30 years doesn't leave a lot of room for empowerment, especially if I have never understood or lived empowerment in my entire life.

Sounds like excuses, I know, but it's an explanation of why I am such a milquetoast. I was raised that way. My father treated me that way, my mother avoided reality, my brother treated me that way, and any time I tried to question it, I was put in my place yet again. To this day, my brother still feels entitled to tell me what all I do wrong. I hate visiting him, and avoid him at all costs. Even my mother acknowledges it, and he does it to her, too, and SHE hates it. It's just all I've ever known - to keep my mouth shut, to ignore my needs, to not upset, to go along, to stay numb.

I'm on meds, I have an IC, but you don't just wake up and say to the person doing it to you, this doesn't work. Not when every person in your entire life has told you to shut up, you're not worth it.

I go outside because it's what I've always done. Because his manipulative punishments strike fear in my heart - my heart which truly believes I am worth nothing, so why shouldn't he treat me that way? Because when I try to speak up to him, my father, anyone, I get so sick I throw up, because I'm so terrified that I will be outcast, that I can't take care of myself, that I'm incompetent, that no one will ever want me around them again...

Jayne, I've got you in writing, I'm holding you to this LOL

Cat, I've got to tell you, that YOU are worth the effort it takes to learn new ways of believing and acting. If you choose new beliefs, your actions will follow. You may feel scared at first, but your feelings will follow your actions.

What do you think about getting into a support group like Alanon or CoDA, where you will meet people in person who have also been in 30 year marriages and decided to choose new beliefs to act from?

You are 100% correct that you have been conditioned to respond and believe one way. How about reconditioning yourself by acting on new beliefs?

Do you remember YaL, not wanting to give up her dream? How ready you were for her to choose differently? What if that was partly projection, that YOU are ready to choose differently, too? I don't think you posted that for no reson. I don't think that you posted that to come here and get bashed. I think that you are ready to trade in this old conditioning, and came here to connect with folks who BELIEVE in you. And we do!

Look, I'm the girl who can't stop eating, so I know that it's easier to say than to do...

But if you make a mistake, you have to just say to yourself "oops, I guess I wasn't ready to stand up for myself this time... I will next time."

And then you try again.

All the IC, all the Meds, and all the support in the world are no substitute for just taking steps, ANY steps to protect yourself and to treat yourself with respect.

You might try a Coda group, btw. And I think you might need some time alone to regroup... but that's a whole different topic, and the baby's crying.

More later.

((((Cat)))))

Uh-oh! LOL

cat, you were making progress with speaking up. And lately, it seems all the times you or DD spoke up, he responded positively, right? It isn't his fault if you don't speak up. IIRC he felt hurt by being shut out when you didn't speak up. Assuming his response will be negative is a DJ. I know you know all this, and that you're trying, I'm just reminding you and trying to give you things to think about that will encourage you to speak up next time.

How about telling him tonight how you felt yesterday?

I've been thinking about it. I've had a couple other people IRL say the same thing: why didn't you just go to bed and let him finish? The truth is, I used to try that and he would always blow a gasket and launch into an hour-long tirade about how he has to do all the work, no one ever helps him, he can't handle it any more, he should just go to work and never come home, everyone wants to just use him...so I learned early on not to stand up to him.

But you're all right. I'm going to keep vigilant tonight for an opportunity to talk about it.

Cat,

I really like what Telly and others have written to you and I support what they've advised.

One thing I believe with you, a woman who is competent, intelligent and passionate--when you really don't like your experience of your H, you'll change.

Maybe now is the time...maybe not. Only you can see your false payoffs and name them.

Here's my old suggestion made new again...choose to be vocal, to express who you are and you will not experience feeling demeaned, ignored or disobedient to your H becuase you'll stop doing those things to yourself.

Here's what you wrote:


Here are new words, thoughts...see if they ring true or not.

"I know you fear me messing up. I know your fear of waste, fear of poverty, feeling out of control." Affirm his stuff, don't fight it. His fear is his own and you know it's not about you. Instead of asking him damaging "why did you/do you" questions...own your own stuff. "I just heard you say that you fear me buying the wrong paint. I know I'll get the correct mix and I still feel like you do not believe in me. I just felt talked down to like a child when you took the lid away from me."

Not the outcome...the stating...which affirms Cat is doing what she is requiring of others...Cat is minding her boundaries and not distracting herself in his offenses. You don't need to sit down and have a talk with him about his behavior like a mother...no more than he needs to make sure of getting the right paint to continue a project that I don't believe both of you agreed on as to a plan. You said someday and he said why not right away...and nothing was said to "So what's your plans tomorrow, what's been on your mind to do? Here's what's been on mine...here is my timeline...to get this kitchen painted in the next two weekends. I loved your response in getting the paint. I enjoy seeing your attention and regard for me. I was surprised and delighted. Here's what I assumed would happen, so let's talk about what we both see as possible to keep our excitement going."

In answering those statements from long ago, on his house...here's new words..."I hear you believe we're almost done. I don't believe we will be. I see you as very driven right now and I'm worn out. I understand you see me stopping right now as leaving you to do all the work."

Confirming what is his...and maintaining your boundaries--to not do that which you will resent. You have a payoff in measuring is awfulness, his power over you, his making you feel, think, do and choose. I had it in my marriage. Until it broke to pieces and still, holding the hammer in my hand, I pointed at DH with my other one and said, "You. You did this."

You feel, Cat. Can you state your feelings as your own? "I try to control you by stopping my stuff to be with you as you do your stuff. I see my plans separately from yours. I often see us as adversaries, as if you're making me stop, start, stand still. I know I'm doing this myself. These are my choices."

There is no reason for you to not remove yourself and your DD18 when he LBs. That's your choice. You chooose to stay through it...maybe to mitigate, control, substantiate...I don't know. Saying "This isn't acceptable to me. I'll be back in two hours."

So your reason to sacrifice, not protect your boundaries, not act respectfully, isn't real. You do/don't do because he does/doesn't do is the cycle you long to break and choose not to let go of. I know in myself until I identified what part I was holding onto...my own arrogance, false self-esteem, urge for blamelessness (which was ME choosing to decide fault constantly), then I could not remove. I could not lovingly detach. I chose not to do so...the payoff was still too great.

See, humans only do what they want. You want this. Find out why...you're aware, understand, clear and sharp...go deeper and find this payoff.

Does the idea that your H wants to see you delighted, surprised, thrilled...hurt inside you, in some unseen place?

LA

Most definitely. When IC would tell me I was pretty, or attractive, I would burst into tears. Every time. She was trying to get me to accept that I have worth, which I wanted, but I found myself unwilling or uncapable of believing. I guess that's my safety zone.

I don't know why I've backslid so much lately. Maybe it's D18's impending leaving next summer. Maybe it's my lack of progress. Maybe it's just fear.

It's been my experience (however limited that may be) that people often backslide when they are on the brink of some major internal switch. It's like a tidal wave--the strength of the water recedes, so it seems like the tide has suddenly gone out, and WORSE--and then suddenly the thunderous wave crashes in.

Change is scary. Things get destroyed by tidal waves.

But it's also how things get a new start... Something new rises from the wreckage.

PS. I don't have to "see" you to see that you are beautiful and smart and generous and loving and kind and forgiving and funny and more.

Do you attend any meeting like Codependents anonymous? I think you could benefit from being be somewhere where your heart can be open and you can receive unconditional love from people who share your journey.

Beautifully said, Telly, as usual.



Cat, I know that hurt...many, many people do. Believe it or not, no, we didn't want self-respect, self-esteem...it HURT to have our secret desires we talked out of ourselves fulfilled.

So you check...you're human...humans only do what they want...even when they don't think they want to...can't make anyone do what they don't want to do, really...so find that hidden false want...to be right...that you're worthless, helpless, a mess, will mess it up...so in the end, you can be right rather than whole.

You're already whole...equal...amazing...and because you are...so is your H. Seriously. He's your equal in every way. Made from the same hands, from the same material...from love. Both are hard to swallow. Can'ts, shouldn'ts, won'ts are in there...let them go.

Al-Anon worked for me...same 12 steps as Codependents Anon...and the rest. Each say, you know what...first step...my life has become unmanageable...this is truly not what I want anymore...and our false payoffs show up as we work the steps, our life experience changes and we see so many others (we are not alone) as ourselves...for we didn't give up our tote-arounds...that piece of blanket, the many-times-repaired-bear...we hold onto our favorite emotions, like resentment, because joy, gratitude and feeling thrilled...well, they hurt so darn much.

You nailed it, as you do so regularly in your advice to posters here...it's the fear. And I gotta say, could be your fear of greatness, which is all I see for you, so staying in the distractions may be comforting...for greatness is a kind of threat.

Meet it. It's you, Cat. Do for yourself right now, leap of faith, go to the meetings...take DD18 with you...be that brave, that self-loving and committed to The Marriage...even when you don't feel like it with H right now.

Go ahead and shine and your fear falls down...I promise.

Btw, acts of kindness by neighbors, strangers, even on the internet can hurt when you're where you are right now...contradicts what the voice tape in your head repeats every second of your life...don't shut off the people, turn off the tape, 'k?

LA

I would like to applaud you gals for the discussion. I am deeply moved and learning a lot from just reading it.

CAT, I am backing you up for every step you take. H and I remodeled the first floor into bamboo a couple of years back. When the newness faded away, H started his usual ranting/raving on how it is tiring to be back home to the mess after a long day or work, how boring it was, etc. He refused my suggestion of living in a friend's house or a hotel until I could finish the work alone as he thinks I was trying to make him feel bad. I ended up taking some time off to speed up the process and learned to use a few power tools which he banned me from using (I would not do it correctly according to H).

I feel for you from my heart that it is just so easy to go with the flow instead of speaking up and holding your ground. But we got to.

Are you guys doing two coats? If so maybe you can do first coat, and let him do the 2nd so that you can both paint and still keep his vision intact?

Telly, I want to think that this is the edge of the precipice; that I'm finally coming to a point where I can walk away from the routine and be myself, whatever that is. I hope you're right.

Telly, that is a big one for me. If I have a purpose, such as volunteering for our activities committee, or serving on a jury, I can speak right up; people even think I'm outgoing and ask me to speak for them. But when it comes to being about me...I've told this before, but if I want to go in a little store, and there's no one else shopping, I won't even go in, because I don't want the owner looking at me and thinking about me. That's how much I can't handle being paid attention to. The thought of going to a meeting where I discuss my weaknesses...makes me ill even thinking about it. I can barely make myself go to IC, I'm so embarrassed.

Maybe someday. But I'm not ready for that.

Cat, I totally understand what you're saying, not wanting to be a burden on anyone. I struggle with that, too. But I want to tell you, that in the meetings, like here, it helps each of us to hear others' experience, strength, and hope. There are no "musts" there, and there are folks who go in and just listen at first, don't say anything, and that's okay, too.