Have you considered doing telephone coaching with the Harley's? They also have a search somewhere here on the site for counselors that use MB principles.

I feel like I'm shoving the Harley's on you and I don't mean to do so. I'm just very impressed with them. I did one session of counseling for myself and it helped a great deal.

I also went to a counselor here in my town and took my DDs to her. What a waste of time and money. She was a divorce facilitator. WxH saw her once and she bought all the crap he was selling.

NO WAY would I recommend her to someone.

If you are going to spend the time and money, don't waste it.

I really hope you and rain continue to improve. It's a long haul.

I'm hoping some of the BHs will come advise you on dealing with the anger.

Good luck!

Fox

Dude,

The anger is part of the process. The trick is to keep from Love Busting when you are. Personally, I think if you can keep focused on what you want in the end (a recovered and romance filled M) you'll do fine. If you want a better M, then you will start to realize that the passive/aggressive stuff has got to go.

At some point you'll see that being right isn't always good for the M. I needed to choose the battles I fought very carefully.

Just like it will take time for you to feel like rain's actions are sincere, it will take time for you to get used to meeting her EN's. When my W was going through her withdrawal, I used to go to a Expo she wanted to go to. I hated it! Now we never miss one. It's ok for me and really not a trigger any more.


And the thing is only time and consistency will fix that. The good thing about that is, if she's not sincere about the changes she is making, she won't be able to keep it up for long and you will know for sure if she is serious about recovery.


It will; usually in direct proportion to where her need for SF is.


Well actually the anger is part of the healing. Once you've processed what hurt you and where you want to go then I think the anger will subside. I mean, punishing her will hit a point of diminishing return for you and you'll figure out that it is actually counter-productive to what you want.

You can do want cat suggests, but I will tell you that if you were to schedule a session or two with one of the Harleys; you'll get more bang for your buck. It really does seem that many many MC don't know how to restore a M. The Harleys do! And you probably won't need to go to as many sessions with the Harleys.


Since I've been where you are, I don't see it as a negative post. It seems like you are doing well and moving forward. The unfortunate thing about going from point A to point B is that you need to travel the distance between them two to get to point B.

Take Care and God Bless.

S&C (sandc_mb@hotmail.com) If you need to.

Question ... do any of the other BH's see this as "setting the bar too low" for a what you would determine to be a "successful" R???

If those are your expectations, then that is exactly what will happen.

MR,


If I said to set the bar there, then yes it would be too low. But I never said to set the bar there. You're reading something into it that's not there.

Just like any spouse trying to fulfill SF; if it's not very high on their EN; they have to work harder at it. Doesn't matter if they are wayward or not.

S&C

I agree with S&C, you can go to a flesh and blood IC, but calling the Harleys is like going through the express lane - skip all the extraneous stuff you have to pay someone to talk about before you get to solutions, and just ask the Harleys what to do.

Yes, I hope the SF gets better. The bar is temporary right now. I'm not going to beat her over the head about it, but she has to realize what I want and need and be willing to work on it. In the past and very recent past conversations we have had about it, it has been a tense issue. She feels that she shouldn't "have to" do it, and I agree. I want her to "want to" do it, and that is where we don't see eye to eye.

Of course in the middle of what we've been through, you can't expect our intimacy level to be in the same place as another couple who have not had our issues. I sometimes expect her to read my mind, and she complains that I don't do enough to get her motivated on a personal level. I'll admit, I'm sometimes too meek to begin with and then pouty about it, lol. Not a good combination. I think it's a bad habit I've developed over the years with no confidence since the first affair. It's little things like this that are the hardest to fix.

When S&C stated it was in direct proportion to where her need is, that is really true right now and always has been. She makes no special effort at all and I have become accustomed to the complacency. In an effort to change this, I have to become the "man of steel" in a way, as my usual efforts to get SF get turned down and make me negative, I have to find a way to turn this around. I really need her to be applying the same effort as me though, and that has been my problem.

After further review of my anger, triggers, etc.

I feel that I need to balance my expectations vs. my reality. It's very difficult to do for me at the moment. I have pushed myself internally to be more than I have been due to the plan A and my 180, so it makes me not want to sit still or be patient right now.

In an effort to "pick" my battles, I tend to bottle things up and forget about them until it is not the time to discuss them. This triggers frustration from me later when I don't need it. I have always been this way and I have always recognized it, just have not figured out how to change it. After the bottle has fizzed out a bit, I'm good to go, lol. I wish I could just process them faster and determine better opportunities to discuss my needs and wants with her.

Some of this ties into the next one also. I tend to find myself reverting back to those doormat days. I touch her to get a touch in response from her, when I shouldn't. I don't bring things up because she seems tired, instead of when I need to. I don't discuss things because I view them as "negative" or I'm afraid I might come across as needy. These are all things I have allowed myself to fall into a patter in the past that I am trying to "bust up". I know some of my frustrations are coming from myself.

I also have devoted so much time to this, that my work and everything else has suffered. It still is suffering as I am way behind in work, and if I don't pick up the pace, I will be in trouble in today's environment of layoffs. I dropped out of college for this summer term, as I couldn't handle it all. I am tentatively scheduled to just take 1 class this fall online, so hopefully it will give me the advantage to better manage my time. I was previously taking a hard class on site with a terrible teacher, so it can't be any worse.

Two suggestions: One, tell your wife this. Ask her to help you change. I think it would be good for both of you to work on it together. Come up with some way of letting her know when something is bothering you, a signal maybe, so she can know to jump in and help you.

Two, how about starting a journal? People under stress nearly always seem to feel better when they can think bout it and express it.

Aloha Dude,


If this is what you need, for you to feel like your M is recovered, she will need to work on this EN of yours


No matter what she feels, the fact is, it is something you need in order to feel loved by her. How was your SF in the beginning of your M? The reason I ask is because if it were good in your opinion, then she knows how to fill this one and it should not be an unreasonable expectation from you.

If it hasn’t been there since day one, then it would be tough to expect her to meet that need quickly. She would need to both understand why it is important (for you and her) and want to learn how do fill the need. However, while wanting to fill the need is very important (and I agree with you, it should be filed), if she were to fill the need because she should, it may help her get to the point where she may become more enthusiastic about it. And you can help her get there by meeting her needs. But being “forced” to fulfill the need may leave her feeling much like being raped I assume.


I think you understand this pretty well.


You may have heard all the cliché’s:

Foreplay starts I the kitchen.
Women are like crock pots and men are like microwaves
Etc. etc.

The fact is, many times we need to pave the way in order for our wives to respond to our advances. Manty time it starts in the morning. Also how she is greeted when you get home. The first four minutes of my greeting my W, is spent with her in my arms hugging. Then I ask her about her day, and I let her talk.

At the end of the day women are going to be thinking about the kids (are they feed, bathed and asleep?), are the dishes done, clothes cleaned, house looking nice etc. She needs to be feeling good that these (or the things she thinks about) are taken care of and she doesn’t have to worry about them. Now I can focus on my H and he’s needs. She’s not going to be into it if she is worrying about something. Sucks but it seems to be true.



But it will get better, when rain is more on board.



I had to become a student of my W. I figure everyone needs to do this with their spouses regardless of an A or not. Preferably before an A is part of the equation.

I agree with what Cat said. There will be some uncomfortable areas where the two of you need to talk about stuff. But if you keep in mind that your spouse is not your enemy, both of you need to communicate to each other.

And keep in mind that communication isn’t communication until the other person really knows what you are saying. You haven’t communicated just because you told her something or she told you something. Both of you need to understand what the other means. And sometimes it takes a few tries. Especially when you are first learning to communicate.

But in order for anything to change, you have to do something with whatever is communicated to you. If she tells you something you need to know; what are you going to do with the information? You can ignore it (and not fix anything) or you can use the information to makes changes that will rebuild your relationship with each other.



Been there myself. It’s hard o focus when your mind is in this mess. Good to take a few things off your plate while you work on this. You’ll need your job regardless of whether or not you reconcile. The college classes can be picked up again after things get better. That’s another reason why I would journal; it was an outlet for my thoughts so I could focus on the work I needed to do. And later on I could look at it to see the progress we made.

How were the last few days? Post when you can.

God bless.

S&C

Just checking in and appreciate all the support. I think I would definitely be separated right now and half crazy strung out with a cake eating WW without it.

She's still a little foggy but she's slowly inching her way back to life it seems. Of course, this could change at any time, so I'm still guarded.

I'm still reading and working my way back into things and hopefully she is also. There is pretty much transparency and she does not try to hide anything. We still have a long ways to go, so keep your fingers crossed.

I may be back in a few days to gripe, so don't take my positive post too seriously!

Hey Dude,


That's the way it works many times. Hang in there. Forward progress is what's important.



As you should be. This process isn't like turning off a switch (unfortunately). Otherwise it wouldn't be called a process.



Keeping you two in prayer (works better than crossing my fingers). Remember the small victories. They add up over time.


Promise I won't take the gripes or the positive posts too seriously. They are just evidence of the roller coaster ride we're on.

How well are the two of you meeting each other's EN's?

Take care and God Bless.

S&C

Ok Folks, I'm back with an update.

We are still together. Things have improved, but with every action, there is a negative reaction. It feels like I am a walking example of Newton's Law. Is she still foggy? Not really and maybe at times she is.

I have noticed a marked improvement in her openness and honesty, yet I still can't shake the fact that there are things I don't know. It's not that I have a ton of things to complain about, it's just that I don't "trust" her emotionally. If that makes sense. Do I think she has made contact again, no. Do I think she wants to? I can't shake the fact that I think she does.

It is a long process of self improvement. My own personality and self realizations have been some of the hardest parts to deal with. I am still a long ways from where I want to be as a person. I still get quiet, angry, and am an overall dour person sometimes. I don't want this. This is not an attractive quality and I am trying hard to break it. It's taken a long time for me to acquire these bad traits. I need to get my mojo back from a long, long time ago. I can't go out there in the dating world and get it from someone else, I have to drag it out from within.

Even though our relationship has improved, we still haven't been to counseling of any kind. She won't post here anymore either. I'm still looking for that initiative from her, but it's not there. That worries me more than discussing my problems with someone else. I don't want to "make her" do it. I want her to "want to". Maybe I should just make her, but I don't see that helping me.

I also have problems with my expectations. What should I expect right now? My brain tells me that this isn't going to work, too much has happened, and she isn't going to change for very long. My heart still clings on to what I feel and have felt all the while it is arising from the ashes of what she has done. Is there such thing as this special, loving, mutual benefit relationship I seek? I know there is always going to be issues with anyone you marry, but I would rather deal with clothes on the floor and something burned in the oven than infidelities and total lack of self control, self esteem issues, money problems. Welcome to marriage?

So, I can't really tell you where we are right now. Are we in the process of recovery? Maybe. Only time will tell. Are we heading for divorce? Maybe. Only time will tell. I don't want to be too negative about things, and this post is fairly negative. I guess this is the only place I can really vent my frustrations and purge some of my questions. Feel free to whack me upside the head with a 2x.

Thanks for updating us.

Can I ask how your daily life has changed from before it all? What changes have you made?

That is a good question. We haven't made any large changes.

We are still living where I do not wish to live. I am dying to get out of here. That causes a lot of stress. I just have to close my eyes, count to 10, and be thankful we have all of our limbs and such and a roof over our head.

She has stopped going out with her friends and does not make plans without including me. That has been a big change. I have tried to be more supportive and make plans more, but our financial situation has dictated a limited amount of this. We went on a trip recently that we both decided upon (what a novel idea). I still feel that she wants me to wine her and dine her like a single guy could do, not some old married man with responsiblities and low funds. Our monetary situation could change in the future, but I don't know if the problem is me, or just her comparing me unrealistically to some ideal she has in her head.

Our daily life still consists of the same routines. Just albeit there is no third party involved. I don't know if drastically changing our lives in response to her infidelity is a correct response or not. I am open to it, as a shake up would be welcome, but I want to shake things in the right direction, lol.

I still go to school, the gym, etc. I try to get her to go with me to the gym, but she has only been a few times. It's not really a couples kind of thing anyway. Things have improved, but there is no "wham" or "wha-la" moment that I could say that things are better. Life is just a grind sometimes, and all this stuff just adds to it. My memory is all over the place when it comes to describing our marital well being.

Would you like us to help you go over some of the concepts here that you can use to try to improve your marriage?

Time to let go. Be Yourself and let her be herself. You do not need her to survive. You have deluded yourself into thinking this is true, but it is not.

Do a 180 and go on without her, and see what surfaces. You have given up all control over yourself and your emotions to a dysfunctional person. And she is well aware of the control she exhibits over you.

Be done and fix yourself, for the next person you may meet who will not treat you with such disdain. After doing that, I promise you she will get off the fence, one way or the other.

That's not to say she will reconsile, but rather, that she must choose one way or the other. Stop being her sounding board!!!

Move, and she will either move with you or not. But don't remain stagnent, indicating that you will wait for HER decision. Start making your own indepedant decisions. She will see the difference and react in one fashion or another.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hey Dude,

I haven’t been here for a while and I don’t post much any more, but funny; the day I take a peek I see your post.

My question to you would be; “What do YOU want to do?” Is there any love left for her? If you want to restore your M, then I would make sure I knew the MB tools that are used to rekindle the romance.

If you really don’t want to restore it then I would say it’s time to make other plans.

It took my W quite a while before she re-engaged in the M. About 8 months. Yes there was contact during that time. The reason I hung on was because I knew that I was part of the reason she gave up on our M. (I’m not taking blame for her A, just the environment that helped her choose to do so).

For my own peace of mind, I had to change myself so that I could say that I did every thing I could to save our M. Those changes were made for me, because if we did get a D, I didn’t want the next Mrs. Steadfast to feel like I didn’t love her too.

I’m not sure I agree with Jerry about it being time to let go. It may be time to plan B; but only if you still have some love left for Rain. If there is no love left, then there will be nothing there to give her if she were to re-engage in the M.

But he is correct in that you need to decide that you can live without her. Because you can! That was one of the most significant things that I learned. Once she knew I could and would choose to live without her, my W started to work on our M.

It’s been a long journey but, we are doing so much better.

The tools here on MB and the books are great help, but if you can swing it, one or two sessions with the Harleys are worth more than say ten sessions with most others.

Regarding contact; just ask her about it. Some people say to “Trust but verify!” Nothing wrong with checking up on her every once in a while.

Sometimes the “Wham - Wha – la” moment takes a while and may only be seen when you look back at where you were and where you are now. I looked back at my journals and saw a huge difference in where we came from and where we were at the moment.

If there’s any way you think I can help the two of you, let me know. I don’t post much anymore but, if you think I can help; either of you can e-mail me at sandc_mb@hotmail.com.

Blessings.

S&C

Dude:

You started here in June.

Your moving along the path of recovery.

Rain seems to be taking part. And she has been let off the hook for most of the work. Waywards like that.

Let me take some specific pieces:


Sure she DOES. She has good memories with OM. The point is, that she DOESN'T. That she resists and never contacts him. Is she sitting on the couch pining away for him? If she is, then that is different. You don't have to accept THAT. But she could be thinking about contacting OM. She may have all sorts of plans in her head to do it. Without you finding out, etc. These thoughts will dissipate as time goes by and your M improves. And all you have to do is make sure there is no contact by verifing as you see fit. And if she is Transparent. ANd doing what you NEED. Otherwise, you don't have to speculate about whether or not she is "thinking" about contacting him She is. Leave it at that.

You state this:



You have every reason to expect a "special, loving, mutual benefit relationship" You may have to give it time to develop. She may not EVER get there. THen you can make the choices that come from that. But before you make those choices, you want to make sure that YOU have done all that you needed to do.

Where are you now? At the crossroads. And you can stand here for a while contemplating the direction you might go. It's not always a two choice crossroads, either. There may be several different roads to take. Unfortunately, the roads to take do not tell you the number of miles to go to your destination. Or, the troubles on those roads, the possible assistance you will get with that trip, or whether you will ever arrive at the destination, or if you can backtrack if YOU don't like where your going.

So, you stand at the crossroads.

There are many points where you do this in recovery. You mentioned earlier in your thread about "WALA" moments, when something seems to occur. If you really look back, you might see these points in hindsight. You may not have realized what happened at the time, or its importance. But you can see them now.

This trip ain't easy. Rain doesn't seem right now like she might be worthy. Even MyRev was ready to throw out FogFree six months later, and she was working the program. This thing goes at the pace you NEED it to go. Not any faster or slower. But your here, and Rain is still with you. That means something. You can see improvement in her. Improvement in YOU.

Decide what is most important, or ask what you might need to do next. And then ask again, as needed. This is a marathon. Not a sprint.

I think that you might want her to post here again. She has learned a few things. Even if she won't admit it. She can be better prepared for what might come her way this time. It might be something that YOU need to stay married to her. THe "ignore" feature works pretty well for those that are rude. But if she comes here, talk to her about what you would like her to accomplish. Learn about her lack of boundaries? Learn about how relationships can grow stronger? LEarn how chasing the rainbow gets in the way of realizing WHAT caused the rainbow?

There are a number of things. You have listed some of your goals Work on a list with her. This site can be a resource for helping you work that list.

LG

or Each choice is made, and then you move further up the path.