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I don't really post here often anymore; however, today is one of those days where I don't know really what to do. It has been over 2 years since the physical D-Day and I really feel like I should be feeling better, but I don't.

Does the pain of betrayal ever go away where you don't feel it almost daily? There is not a day that has gone by since August 2006 that I have not thought about my wife's affair. Will that always be the case. I try to do different techniques such as "stop thoughts" or changing the channel yet the thoughts and pain still come back.

I have triggers like everyone else such as anniversary dates or the date of the trip she took or other events that occurred during the affair. However, I have triggers such as just seeing her dressed up looking beautiful. I then imagine the sexually thoughts that the man had when he saw her and how he was able to succeed in just a few hours of drinking. I guess I am saying that everything and also nothing triggers thoughts.

She asked recently, "What more can I do to show you that I love you presnetly and I will protect our marriage in the future?". I could not respond. I don't know. So, some days I just feel like there is no hope. I feel like maybe I'm not the type that can get past this. I say I made the decision to stay and to move forward but I can not stop the pain nor the thoughts.

She is doing everything right presently. She has done well since January 2006 when she established NC. However, it took her until really earlier this year to be completely honest with everything. Yes, she basically told the same story back in 2006 but it was filled with a lot of static and maybe's and probably's and lacked her feelings and emotions(just the facts and I don't know why it happened).

I don't know what to do. I find myself thinking that I hate her at times. Definately a thin line between love and hate. What to do? Is it this hard for others?



Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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Well, I hate to tell you this, but you may have to accept that you cannot get over the resentment and decide accordingly. I know that I could not recover from a second affair because of my personality. You may have to accept that you are built the same way. Here is an excerpt from an article written by Dr Harley about resentment:

Quote
In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

Overcoming Resentment



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I hope it ends one day. I'm not even a year out from dday but it has gotten better for me. I think the difference might be that your FWW only gave you disclosure earlier this year. Hearing new truths a year later would take anyone back. My FWH answered my questions within 3 months. I could not have taken not knowing details for over a year only to torture my mind even more.

Originally Posted by Hope_Full
I find myself thinking that I hate her at times. Definately a thin line between love and hate. What to do? Is it this hard for others?

Your feelings are normal. There were days I thought I hated my H and wanted to destroy his life like he had destroyed mine. There are some days the anger and disgust boil up but nothing compared to the months just after D-day. Do you feel your W feels Godly remorse vs fleshly remorse? That makes a huge difference in recovery.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Maybe what's eating at you is still not knowing if you have the truth?

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Godly Remorse versus Fleshy Remorse? That's interesting. I not sure I know the difference.

Yes, not having details immediately did do a tremendous amount of additional damage. However, that is the way it occurred and neither one can change that now. I can justify why I feel the way I do. I just don't know what to do, presently.

And yes, I understand resentment is huge with repeat offendors. I know she had 2 affairs but I still look it as one time period. They occurred within 3 months of one another and discovery all happened at once. Might be the wrong way to look it but that is it. It is all one huge mistake.

Lost at times.....


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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Originally Posted by Hope_Full
Godly Remorse versus Fleshy Remorse? That's interesting. I not sure I know the difference.

In the words of sexymamabear...

"Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)"

See post from tst's (her H) for full quote:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...at&Number=2165629&gonew=1#UNREAD

Where does your wife's action fall?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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Mel,

The 2nd A was going on the same time the first A was!!

She had 2 dudes on the line at the same time. (check out the dates on the sig line)

This is different than having one A and recovering and then some time later having another A, knowing what devastation the 1st A caused, but doing it anyway.

Still hurts like heck, of course, and has some different dynamics going on, i e she is juggling 2 guys, plus the H.

WOW. faint naughty uhuh think

kirk


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HF,

I wonder if you are looking at the "average" timeline and wondering why you aren't meeting the "norm". Two years, and you are thinking to yourself that you should be over it by now.

That's one thought I had.

Another is like the other poster, that you really started recovery when you began to get the truth, the real remorse, and when your wife really came on board with you on the recovery train. Maybe you need to think about your timeline in that frame of mind, as opposed to the d-day timeline. Just something to think about.

Your wife asked an interesting question, and one you might think about a little more closely. She didn't put it in MB terms, but maybe a little thought would put it there for you. She asked you what you need from her to "feel loved" or to "feel safe" - in other words, she wants to know what your emotional needs are. Have you two talked about them recently? Things have probably changed since d-day regarding your EN's. I know mine have. On d-day, my EN - numero uno - was openness and honesty! Now, SF has moved up the ladder and conversation is up there, too. But I wouldn't know that if we didn't revisit that checklist every now and then. Maybe now is the time. You are in the doldrums for a reason, so talk about it, and take a look at how she can help you - she is wanting to help you. Let her!


For me, it was a roller coaster. I was up, and down, and all around. There are still some days, three years out, that I look at my H and think that I want to just slap him for having that affair. Yep, it's true, and I'm in what I consider a recovered marriage. We are happy, we have moved forward - but it doesn't stop that occasional thought of anger or resentment from trying to work its way back to the surface. I acknowledge it. I admit that I do have those feelings now and again. The difference now is that I don't feel the need to act on those feelings, I recognize that they WILL retreat, that they are temporary, and the interesting thing is - they are fleeting now. They come and go very quickly, because I am letting him IN again.

I just let him IN.

I let him love me.


SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Schoolbus,

I look at it from both dates. The D-Day and latest time that I have heard open and honest details that were different than the stories I have heard in the past.

It has been very tiresome in that we have struggled with the openness from 2005 really up until the beginning of this year. I am tired and my wife is tired. Yes, she should be accountable because she did choose to extend the details phase out for years which destroyed my ability to trust. Her thoughts were always that she could be honest about anything except for the events of 2005 because of her embarrassment/shame/guilt. She states she has had a difficult time accepting what she has done which makes it hard to verbalize it to me. Maybe that is true. Mabye that's not but nevertheless, we are here in the present.

She states that all is out. She has been very open and transparent regarding anything besides the 2005 action but now she is tired. And I admit, that I am tired as well. I am tired of this being one of the main focuses of our relationship. Again, it has been a huge fight for the truth and openness regarding the truth. So many lies, maybe I know all, maybe I don't. I guess at some point, we have to move forward regardless.

So, it feels like we have been in a struggle since 2005 and now we are supposed to be moving past the details phase into other parts of recovery. The problem is that we probably don't have the energy.

Yes, I am not even sure what my needs are at this point. I know conversation but she is not big on conversation. I have this big need to connect on a deeper level. It is a need that is greater than it has ever been. Yet, that seems to be one of her weeknesses. She says she really does not have much to say and is not a "Deep" person. She wants things to remain surfacy and just "enjoy each other" now. I have a need SF. She does not seem to desire me in this manner but at least she does try. Again, she states she is not a highly sexual person.(Again, which leads to the confusion regarding how quickly she moved to SF during the affair - same night she met the guy) So, yes, I have needs but she states that due to her personality and "who she is", she may not be able to meet those presently. Confused


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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Krusht,

Yes she went from one affair to the next before either were discovered. Again, both were long distance affairs. She met both guys out of town on "girls only" trips. The first guy she met and kissed then started a EA. I believe this got her comfortable with the idea of having friends outside of marriage. She then went on a 2nd trip, met a guy, and had SF the same night. They started the EA via phone, text, and email messages. She had already cut off the 1st guy. The new guy and her saw each other once more as he came to town with his fiancée to visit relatives. She picked him up from a department store and dropped him off to his fiancee's hotel. He stated that he "had" to be with his fiancee during regular hours. However, he did call 15-20 times after midnight hoping to get together. Fortunately, she felt guilty and had already turned her phone off and was already at home. He left out of town the following morning and ironically the initial discovery occurred the following day and we have been on the road ever since.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
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Hi Hopeful,

I don't post very often either. I really don't even lurk as often anymore. I am drawn to discussions that involve forgiveness or the lack there of. Do you think that you have forgiven your W? I think that many people have a problem with the huge difference between forgiveness and trust. Forgiveness is a choice. Your choice. It is a gift to the offender. It must be given freely and not ever snatched back. Trust must be earned.

I forgave my H totally as soon as I realized that he was truly remorseful and totally committed to me and our M. I don't know if I will ever fully trust him again, even though he has gone above and beyond in being totally open with me. Before his A, I trusted blindly and naively, now I trust but confirm.

I have never received all of the "details"of his A. At first he was too embarrassed and humiliated to talk about details. Eventually, he told me all of the essentials and by then, I had realized that I did not need or want anything further.

Are you consistently spending your 15 hours together each week? I believe that is the true secret to the MB plan and I think that is the first thing that many people slack off on

Be patient. Everyone is different but please strive to forgive fully. It may be a gift to your W but you will benefit greatly from it.

God's Blessings,

Say


Me, BW-57
FWH 54
4 kids and 4 grandbabies between us
In recovery since D-day, May 28,2007
FWH never onboard the MB boat but still clinging to the side.
One day at a time by God's grace.
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Saynomore,

Thank you for your post. You are right. I need to strive for total forgiveness for myself. I know we forgive but don't forget, however not forgetting still causes emotions. It is difficult to believe the words of a FWW especially when those words were very similiar prior to the A. Trust me, I would never, I am not like that, I have too much self-respct, I would never betray you in that matter, I have so much love for you, We are meant to be together, We are soulmates,You are near perfect in my eyes, You do so much for me, I appreciate everything about you, etc, etc, etc. Same words yet when they were challenged by a stranger that was aggresively pursuing sex, none of that mattered. She wanted the excitement of newness. Now, I am supposed to beleive that those words NOW. I am supposed to believe that they are truth NOW and that is how she really feels(even though she said while in the "fog" she never meant those words in the past". That is difficult.


Hope_full

Me - BS - 35
Her - FWW - 35
3 children
12 year marriage
Affairs were during 2005
OM#1 Met/Kissed-2/05, EA 2/05-5/05
OM#2 First Night Stand 5/05,Kissing 7/05, EA 05/05-12/05
Emotional DD w both OM's - 7/05
Physical DD - 7/06(Intial) - 5/07 (Details)
NC OM#1 5/2005
NC OM#2 12/2005
Joined: Jul 2004
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HF,

""She had already cut off the 1st guy.""

Sorry, bro, there I went assuming again.

Sorry I made it worse than it actually was. cool

kirk

edited to put in smiley face w/no disrespect intended whatsoever.

Last edited by krusht; 12/03/08 04:58 PM.

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HF,

What's referred to as the "fog" here really does have a basis in science. Your wife told you that she "never really meant" what she had said regarding how she felt about you while she was in the fog.

While she was in the fog, she probably told you that she never loved you, and she probably rewrote the marital history.

This all has a basis in science, in that our memories tend to attribute the feelings that we have right now back over time and tell us that we have "always" had these feelings in the past as well. It is a common phenomenon, and perhaps one of the ways the brain uses to stabilize emotions (or so it is hypothesized by some of the scientists). At other times, we are well able to rightly view the fact that our feelings have and do change over time, and that we did NOT feel the same way in the past.

The problem for scientists is that we are having some difficulty teasing out exactly why the application of the rule is used by the brain in certain circumstances and not in others.


Hence, "the fog".


What you're trying to do is to understand why your wife can enter a fog, do things that are seemingly uncharacteristic - betray you and HERSELF - and then fight you for so long to rectify the situation despite KNOWING that she has done this and that she was in the wrong.

The problem here is that nobody can really "understand" it. What we can do is work our way through it. Which is where you find yourself - smack in the middle of the process!

I would call this aspect the "why in the world did you do this???" phase.

Things have settled down. It looks like the marriage will probably "get there" in time. But now the BS looks back and says, "Hey wait a minute. Why????? I never got the answer to this question, and I WANT AN ANSWER THAT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THE NUCLEAR BOMB JUST DROPPED IN MY LIFE."

There's resentment, because the BS often feels like he did all the work, and somehow the FWS didn't do just penance.

There's anger, because the nuked marriage is not the same, and the BS still feels like he's picking up the pieces.

And there's the strange sound of silence....while the BS waits for the FWS to be the one to start the discussion about rebuilding, to be the one who works harder, to be the one who buys the next book, to be the one to just sit down and say how much they want the marriage to work, to be the one who looks at the website and searches for what they can do to fix what they are recognizing as a problem....the sound of silence waiting for those things to begin..........


I think you are there.


Your idea that you want something deeper? I understand that. I pushed for it - I told my H that I would NOT SETTLE for the old marriage.

It scared him to death.

He said he thought that I wanted the brass ring, and that meant that HE was not the guy to give it to me.

I told him that if he was not willing to work - HE WASN'T the guy. But my expectation was that I was not returning to the same old marriage. My expectation was that THIS marriage would NOT be ho-hum, because I had a husband who was not ho-hum and I fully expected a great marriage and nothing less.

If he wanted me to be a great wife, then he had to set the pace.

The ball was in his court, and I was no longer going to push him - he was the man, he was to lead. "GO AHEAD, YOUR MOVE." I told him I was NOT doing it anymore.

He picked up where I left off, because it did mean something to him.

That was my Plan F-U. It worked.

Just some thoughts.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Schoolbus
As usual -your words jump out at me and right into my heart!!

i totally agree with you about NOT wanting the OLD marriage back after infidelity.

We, as the BS, need to have a totally NEW marriage that will be so much better than before - SO that there will no chance for cheating.

We will be in a stage of intimacy - one that never existed in our old marriage- only in our dating phase.
And in this stage of intimacy - we would just know when something wasnt right with our spouse because we will be spending 15 hours a week of undivided attention time and POJAing about everything we do

I WILL ONLY SETTLE FOR THIS GREAT MARRIAGE TOO.
i wont go back to the old one - it was sick, as we were.

now we need to grow and emerge as different people - people who can build a different life together- a different marriage.

i am an optimist- i believe that it CAN be done - and YOU - schoolbus- are proof!

SF


BS- me 56; FWH-58
3 kids, DS 23,23 DD 14; Married: 34 years
D-Days: 7/11/07;/7/13/07;7/31/07
Unbelievably recovering- but in an up and down way.

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