{{{KLD}}}

I'm so sorry! I was just thinking of bumping your thread again yesterday.

I just finished rereading HNHN, and it struck me that Harley says that a man will always still 'love' his AP, which is why he has to never contact her again. At some point in his life, she provided the ENs that he wasn't getting at home. Therefore, she'll be a savior of sorts, for providing that for him. And, of course, she didn't have to deal with providing him all the other ENs, so therefore she didn't seem as 'unfulfilling' as the woman he married. In other words, she remains a fantasy. It's not really her he's in love with, it's the feeling he got when he was with her. He just wants that euphoria that he felt during it.

I suppose I should ask you what has changed in your marriage. Have you started meeting any ENs she was providing? Have you discussed what they were? I guess I'd start there if I wanted to keep the marriage.

That said, my first instinct is to hand him a Plan B letter so that he can come back to reality and see the fantasy fog he's been breathing in.

I'm so sorry.

How are you personally?

Are you OK with your job, and are they fine with you?

Are you sleeping Ok most of the time?



This new information has got to be difficult to take. I am sorry you have to cope with it again. Or, that it is ongoing.

You still have many options, but no guarantees. It's a question of what you are willing to live with VS what may happen if you press for change. If you do nothing, it is very likely that nothing will change. If you force a decision, he may leave.

What are your thoughts on your options?

SS

Cat, thanks for the reminder that she is a fantasy. I don't know that he realizes that. We had been working on our M and have discussed our needs often. The feedback I got was that he has been happy with how things were going. We've had lots of good time together. There have been things that were missing, but overall things were much improved.

SS - I know you're right that I have to decide what I can live with and what I can't. I can't live with my H having an affair. If he needs to get over her and wants to, then I can live with it if he will find a way to do it. I can't live with him having a secret life.

I do still love him and I do want this M to work, but I'm very unhappy that we've taken such a backward leap.

I've revamped my previous plan b letter and now have to decide if I use it or not. This latest info is still fresh and new. I'm not an impulse kind of person, so I won't make an impulsive decision.

As for my job - it bites. It gets worse every day. The company is about to go under - and I think if it survives, this office will move back to WI. I'm looking pretty hard for another job.

SS - to expand further on your questions...

personally, I was doing pretty good except for my job situation. I had gall bladder surgery 3 weeks ago and am now feeling great! I've been sleeping pretty well most of the time - but when I don't it's because I dread going to work.

My thoughts on my options...

1. I can just leave. He deserves to lose me, really. I'm so much better than the trash he chose to screw around with - he knows that and it doesn't matter. I don't think I can just walk away from him, though, because of our circumstances. I'm not that kind of person. He's been good to me in so many ways - except the cheating part. He is without a job right now. We have savings, but I wouldn't be okay leaving him with no net. Also, in his state of mind I don't know if he would be okay. I also know that's not my total responsibility, but it matters to me.

2. I can wait and see how things go. He hasn't seen her, but she's still on his mind. We have quite a few open issues and I can push harder to work those out. Not sure this will really change anything, though, in the long run.

3. I can live with it. Not an option for me. I deserve better than this.

4. I can plan b him and lay out my requirements for reconciliation. This will take planning and with him not having a job, I don't know how we could work it. We do have savings, but I don't want to put myself in financial jeopardy by using them up for him to live on without my salary.

5. I can tell him what I know and see what he says. If that is what I decide, then I'll also give him my requirements for us to stay married if it gets that far.

KLD, I'm so sorry that you are back under these circumstances. Thanks for the prayers, I'm sending some your way, too. You have always been amazing in your strength. If anyone can make it through this, you can!

I have a feeling that this would be a good test ground to see if your RH with each other can work. Meaning, I'd go ahead and tell him that you know. Don't let it snowball into something else. See if he can deal with the situation honestly, or if he reverts into preservation mode.

I'd also call his IC and ask for advice.

What about having him move to another room in the house? Not right away, but if it feels like you have to leave and you can't salvage.

Tonight went badly. I decided not to come out and admit that I've seen his emails. I did tell him I am worried about him having free time now that his job has ended and that free time before didn't go so well. This snowballed into me accusing him of still having the affair. The typical pattern for us emerged - me crying and explaining and him denying and being defensive.

I went back and read his emails again and they do clearly say that he hasn't seen her or talked to her - only that he can't get her out of his mind. He also does say he knows she's trash and that she's not good for him. I guess he did try to call her, but got her boyfriend instead and that's how he found out she's getting married.

Anyway, I guess I've got some clean up work to do now. He says he does love me and that he thought he was doing alot to show me. He actually has been wonderful the last month or so. Our anniversary was 2 weeks ago and it was good.

So my question is - will he just work through his obsession with her with his counselor and hopefully get through it?

Cat - if it comes to it we could just live in separate parts of the house if we need to do that. I think I will try to call his counselor and ask her how to deal with it. I could make an appt with her if necessary. I've been trying to get an appt with a new counselor, but can't get in at a time I can be there. I'm going to keep trying - I need serious help to recapture my self esteem. I feel like I need tons of special attention and words of love and commitment. I don't get that and I sometimes think I'm foolish for wanting that.

Thanks so much EO - It's great to hear from you. I appreciate your reminder that I'm strong. I don't feel like it right now. I feel weak and at the mercy of something I just can't control. I know that will pass, though, and I'll gain clarity again.

I want to be able to detach a little and be able to visualize all the outcomes and what I'd do to handle each one. I'm not really there yet. I made a promise to myself 3 months ago and I know I can keep this promise. If H ever again tells me he wants a D, I will not try to save it. I will get a lawyer and let it happen. I at least have decided that if he wants out, I won't work to keep him any more. So far, he hasn't even mentioned anything like that.

KLD

I can not believe you posted TODAY!!!!!!! This VERY morning I started to look up your thread but had to leave and could not finish. Seems like God has put you on the minds of many of us just as you needed it.

As happy as I am to hear from you, I wish it was under different circumstances. I am SOOOOOOOOO sorry things have taken this turn.

My H asks about you, wondering if we have heard from the lady from Atlanta. When I told him you posted today and what you had said, his response was this: "Her H has never left the fog. It sounds like he still hasn't made the DECISION to leave the affair behind. I bet he still doesn't even realize how much he hurt his wife."

I certainly agree with everything he said and was pleasantly surprised to hear him say it.

I also agree with Cat. Why don't you just start with a HUGE dose of Radical Honesty? Tell him everything you know and tell him you want to know EVERYTHING, even if he thinks it will hurt you. Tell him that the OW is a fantasy. I know that in the past he didn't like it when you said mean things about the OW, but that is because he was still gaslighting you. he had not left her behind yet and still thought she was something special. gag.

His depression is surely related to the fact that he has continued lying when he is insisting that he he is NOT. My H has BTDT also. It makes life a living He!! for YOU.

As I look back at your postings from the summer, I imagine this is WHY he felt that HIS life was a living He!! if you mentioned the A. He was still in contact and could not pretend. He had to make you just stop talking about it if he was to just get through the day. Cake eating.

I am NOT a counselor or a psychologist, but I have some thoughts about his depression. He will continue to feel depressed as long as he is in the fog. I suspect that he thinks it is the other way around. He thinks that because he is depressed he (wants, needs, loves, whatever) the idiot OW. When in reality, he is depressed BECAUSE he is living a double life. He is involved in pure evil and it does not make him happy. It makes you depressed and causes you to make poor decisions. KLD, you CAN say that to him. It is one of the ways you can shine light and hope into his life.

Please forgive me ,but I am SOOOO angry with him. YOu have been so loving and accepting and are STILL willing to work it out. He is a lucky, lucky man.

I second the idea of possibly the "modified" plan B. Living in the same house but not actually together. Could be difficult, but can it really be more difficult than doing what he is doing NOW?

Also, do INDEED talk to his counselor. She may NOT be able to talk to you ABOUT him, but she can definitely LISTEN to what you have to say. You can give her insights that he WON"T give her. And make some suggestions. I have HAD this experience with my FWH and it is MOST helpful.

How I wish I could see you face to face and hug and encourage you KLD!!!!

Keep posting. We are here for you.

Praying Blessings into your life,
WH2LE

KLD,

I just read your post about things going badly.

Honey, he is still having an affair, even if it is only emotional. He is giving thought time to HER that belongs to YOU.
That IS infidelity.

He tried to call her. He thinks about her. He drove past her house. IF my H did ANY of those things I would definitely accuse him of still having an affair. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!!

I know you know this but I want you to see that we ALL know it too. YOU have done NOTHING wrong. There is NOTHING wrong with snooping. There is NOTHING wrong with calling your husband on his bad behavior. YOU do not have clean up work to do. HE DOES!!!!!

He probably DOES love you, but what he needs to get through his thick skull(forgive me) is that it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT ELSE HE IS DOING IF HE IS STILL ALLOWING HIMSELF THE EMOTIONAL INFIDELITY. In the end it will be for naught. He MUST break his addiction.

Sometimes my H thinks he is just falling all over himself to show me loves me. But if he is not speaking MY love language, it doesn't come across as love. Intellectually I can get it, but it can't permeate my emotions. It sounds like this is where you are.
My H will tell me what a great job he is doing and that there msut be something wrong with ME because I can't see it. We had a huge issue with this just yesterday. It doesn't happen all the time ,but it is an issue. It sounds like your H is doing what HE wants to do to show you that you are loved but it isn't fulfilling YOUR needs.

He HAS to go through the pain of withdrawal. But one of the ways he can do that more effectively is to put ALL his emotional energy into YOU and YOUR needs. It will work wonders for him. Do you think he would hear that in any kind of meaningful way if you told him THAT?

Blessings and MORE blessings,
WH2LE

Go back and read that part at the end of HNHN that talks about the man still having feelings for the woman, and why it's all false. I would even read it out loud to your H. He needs to hear from someone other than you that what he's doing is normal but wrong.

And stop worrying about his delicate condition; it's his to own and not your responsibility.

WH2LE - I so appreciate your post. I'm so torn about what I've found out. I'm somewhat angry, but at the same time I do believe he's just a mess. I have sympathy for him, but I also know that he needs to get himself straightened out. I believe he's trying to do that, but thinks he can lie about things until it's all sorted out for him.

I don't mean to sound like I'm giving him a pass, I just want to say that I feel like I know what he's going through - even if he's wrong about what he's doing. I understand that going by her house was a backslide and the clock starts over because of that. I'm angry and hurt that he was weak enough to do it.

I also wonder if he will ever be able to commit to me. If he can feel so in love with this fantasy who in real life is gutter trash, then how can he ever feel deep love for me again? I get the fog thing, but I wonder if he will ever be capable of coming out of it. I can't do it for him. I can't make him. So, how can it happen if he won't figure it out?

The bottom line is that if I hadn't snooped in his email I'd have no idea this was in his mind. I know I didn't do anything wrong, but part of me wishes I didn't know.

To put it bluntly - he's NOT choosing. He still has you and he still has the fantasy of OW. The only way a man like yours makes a choice is when someone else removes themselves (like OW removed herself when the $$$ ran out).

If I were you, I'd tell H:
"You made your choice when you continued to secretly correspond with OW and continued to do drive-bys ... Your choice is this : You are unfaithful; and dishonest with me. My choice is to have you removed from my life until you treat me as a wife should be treated. You have 48 hours to move out."

No yelling. No drama. Just hard cold facts.

This sort of pathetic mooning can go on for years unless you make the move to protect your boundary.

Pep

KLD

I am so afaid I am going to sound mean as I respond, but please believe me that I don't mean it that way. I mean it as a concerned friend who TRULY wants your happiness.

You need to read SAA again. You need to read the articles on Marriage Builders about Withdrawal and Recovery.

KLD, this happens ALL the time on MB. A WS "falls in love"(yuck) with their soulmate. They moon over them, they yearn for them, they even move in with them. Then, the BS does what they need to do. They Plan A or Plan B or start Plan D. They even Plan FU sometimes. And somehow or another, the WS comes out of the fog and says WTF?????. It's like they are shaking themselves awake. They look around like they have been asleep and find themselves falling in love with their wives/husbands again. It's just not that unusual.

I told my H that it felt like he had come back after a long trip. He told me it felt like he had gotten out of prison.

KLD, it's not up to you to wonder if it can happen or not. It CAN happen. It is up to you to start putting up heavy-duty boundaries. Then he will respond or not.

I believe you are babying him. Stop worrying about his mental state. Really. He is not worrying about yours.

I for one, believe you have let your H off the hook almost EVERY time. I think you need to feel angry and you need to put your sympathy totally aside. He is behaving liking a spoiled child.

I find it interesting that when the OW CUT HIM OFF, making it abundantly clear that she only wanted his MONEY, that he STILL thinks she is his SOULMATE. :RollieEyes:
YET.....YOU have been sympathetic, loving, willing to see this latest betrayal as "backsliding" and he STILL wants the OW and (wah, wah) CAN'T stop thinking about her.

My advice is the same as Pep's. CUT HIM OFF. Not because you don't love him. BECAUSE what you are doing and HAVE been doing is NOT working. I do not think he has ANY idea how strong a woman you are. With all my heart, I believe that he is manipulating you. He KNOWS that you feel sorry for him and he feels sorry for himself.

I also think he sees the OW as STRONG. She dumped him, she is supposedly getting married. SHE DOESN'T NEED HIM. Do you see the pattern? She ISN'T strong of course. He is just ADDICTED and she has made herself MORE attractive by making herself LESS available.

I don't think you do understand the fog. The fog prevents him from seeing. It may take a LONG time for the fog to lift. But...your H does not seem to be hearing the fog horns blowing. He is reveling in the fog. Blow the horn, wake him up. Read about the fog again.

As for snooping in his e-mail, you would NOT have snooped if somewhere inside you you hadn't known that he was doing SOMETHING. NOT KNOWING would not have made it better. Ignorance is NOT bliss.

Hope I have not come on too strong.

I KNOW you can get through this. I am glad you are feeling healthier. It is amazing what a toll an A takes on one's health. I would not have believed it.

Praying,

WH2LE - you don't sound mean at all. I appreciate the voice of reason. I know that what you're telling me is right. I'm just having a hard time dealing with it all.

I know I have been strong through most of this experience. I know I've done some things that were hard to do and I've made difficult choices. I've stood by my principles and commitments. It would have been easier to run crying from this marriage and start over. I didn't do that because that's not who I am or who I want to be.

I think that through this process I've managed to push my needs aside with the thought that eventually things will work out and I'll be able to get my needs met again. The issues with his mental state are serious to me. Maybe I do baby him. The thought of finding his body after he's taken too many pills is one that I can't bear. He is in treatment for his suicidal thoughts and I believe he is better. But there have been twice where I woke up and found him with all his medicine bottles - once with a note apologizing to me for the pain he has caused me. Many may think this is an act, I know for certain that it's not. He may be manipulating me, but I am concerned for his health and safety. This may sound sappy or a cop out, but it's truly how I feel.

I realize that I have let him off the hook many times. In this case, I'm not ready to tell him I know about his emails to his counselor. That seems like a huge invasion of privacy even though I know I wasn't wrong for it. He will interpret it that way. He will also take measures to make sure I don't have access to any more info. I'm not ready to give that up until I'm ready to make a move.

I hear you that I need to cut him off. I actually probably need to just walk away and forget about plan b. I know these things, but I'm not ready to do that at this time.

He did make this situation for himself. I know that.

I've read your thread from the beginning (took a while).
You've had such fantastic support from Still Seeking, WH2LE, and others.

Your H is making some changes, and that's good. He's not making the deep down core value changes, and he must do that if you two are going to have a real M. He lost his job, he felt bad, he looked outside himself *and the M* for a quick fix. This is not married behavior, and your H should know that by now.

I went into his email and found where he was sending emails to his counselor telling her he made a stupid mistake and went by her house.
He said he still loves her and thinks she is his soul mate.
I don't think he's seen her, but he has tried to contact her.
I found that he's set up another email account that he didn't tell me about.

You have been understanding and empathetic long enough. This is not a slip-up made by a recovering wayward. A recovering wayward might start to drive to her house, but he'd turn around and come home and tell you about it.

A recovering wayward would NOT be spending time telling himself how much he loves OW. His self-talk would be about strengthening the marriage. His energies are elsewhere.

A recovering wayward wouldn't call OW. If OW called him, he'd hang up and tell his wife immediately.

A recovering wayward understands that secrecy and lies are poison to a marriage. Their focus is on protecting the marriage, and the thought of a secret email account or cell phone would make them ill.

He is NOT in recovery. He may be trying to do the right things, but his motivation is wrong. He's trying to smooth things over and get everything back to normal and comfortable for himself. He doesn't value the marriage because of the commitment, protection, and depth of emotion it represents. He doesn't protect it above all else. He's focused on his own comfort, NOT your well being.

I think that if you try to be "understanding" or "talk this out" at this point, you become an enabler and part of the problem. You have boundaries - you NEED boundaries - and if you fail to enforce them now, they are worthless. You have seen children whose parents warn them over and over without ever delivering consequences, or who say "I'm countint to three! One... Two... Two and a half...." Those kids are spoiled brats with no self discipline and no respect for themselves or others. If you don't enforce your boundaries now, you're teaching your WH to be a spoiled brat that will never be worth living with.

Pep - The comment about how the mooning can go on for years is like having cold water thrown on me. I know this is true, but it's so different to see it written TO ME about MY SITUATION. I know it's my responsibility to protect my boundaries. First, I have to decide what they are. I had made good progress towards this, and now they seem to have faded back to nothing again.

Thanks for the reminder.

It sucks that you have to be the one who is uber-vigilant, but there it is. Does he ever talk to you honestly? Does it jive with what he tells his counselor? In other words, do you know what he really thinks?

KLD, I think that I have mentioned to you that I've been heavily involved in Alanon for 3 years now. I don't think that by any means makes me an expert in anything, but it has helped me understand my limits and responsibilities as a human.


I ask you to consider calling his counselor and letting her know this, if you're not SURE that she knows already. The 3 C's - you didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it. If he hurts himself, it's because he had inadequate treatment set up, not because you detached in love. You have made it clear when he was in a good mental state what would happen if he started this stuff up again, and HE failed to plan backup measures for himself. KLD, you can't keep him "safe" from himself by keeping status quo. I hope you see this.

I have a good friend who made the decision to Baker Act her H. You know they don't do that lightly, she had a lot of evidence. They found he was a danger to himself, and told her that it was fortunate that she took action when she did. It was very risky for the whole family, as he was the sole breadwinner and it was a large family. But they had to accept that risk, because the threat he posed to himself was SO high. They say, if someone talks about killing themself, to ask them if they have a plan. And if they do, then it's time to step in.

KLD, I so understand the need to support him given his mental state, but I want to ask you whether you have considered that you giving him so much support may actually be hurting him by not forcing him to make some hard decisions or to try to work harder on himself?