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This is an almost direct copy and paste of an email (edited for point of view differences) I sent Dr. Harley, but given that I can't be sure I'll receive a response, I need some advice. For my own reference, I'm coloring any significant text I'm adding since I sent the letter to Dr. Harley.

I know the advice here is intended for married couples experiencing difficulties, but I've found the advice in your columns incredibly helpful in my complicated relationship with my girlfriend. I've read through almost every article posted, some more than once, over the last week. I find them inspiring and they give me hope.

Unfortunately, I still need some customized advice.

My girlfriend and I were together for one week shy of a year, but we'd known each other off and on through mutual friends for the prior two years.. Three months ago, we decided to take our relationship to the next level and we moved in together into a new home. It was her idea. She had lived with her prior boyfriend, and I'd never lived with any of mine. She assured me it would be okay and it didn't necessarily imply intent of marriage. I'll preface the details of this by saying that in the year we were together, we never had an upsetting argument. We had a few small debates over incidents involving other people (essentially, my "friends" didn't approve of our relationship because they thought she was also leading on another of my friends while courting both of us, which wasn't true and was blown way out of proportion), but there was never any argument between us. She is easily the best person I've ever met and I love her wholly. I know (now) about Dr. Harley's thoughts on living together prior to marriage, but the description is not at all the style in which we lived together. Until these recent problems, I believe we were unknowingly following the Policy of Joint Agreement fairly well, though now that I know about it I can see where there was room for improvement.

This last month, our relationship has been through some rough times. She started hanging out with a few friends who I initially didn't approve of because I didn't believe they had good intentions. I think she knew the same, but as a result of everything that blew up when we got together, neither of us really had any friends left. They would associate with me, but not with her, and didn't want to really acknowledge her existence or our relationship. I came to accept the two of them as better people than my first impressions revealed (they're both on my side through this ordeal and don't want much to do with her right now), but she met another guy through the two of them who everyone agrees is a morally corrupt leech who cannot be trusted. She started hanging out with him more and more, always asking if he was around whenever we would go visit these other friends. I had a feeling there was something more there but I was in denial.

A few weeks ago, she went over for a party. Her and I were supposed to go out that night, but she changed her plans at the last moment and abandoned ours. I still intended on keeping my original plans (post-Halloween holiday shopping), and I trusted her, so although I didn't appreciate her standing me up, I wasn't too upset. It was that night that she first kissed this other guy; we'll call him "JO" for anonymity purposes. I didn't find this out until later, since there was another party the following night. He was there, and she was continuously flirting with him. I went with one of my other friends to the liquor store, and he took me to the side to tell me that the night prior, the two of them were becoming overly affectionate toward each other in ways that made him uncomfortable, and as my friend he felt obligated to tell me. She was cuddling into his chest during movies like they were a couple.

I confronted her on the second night asking her if there was any emotion toward JO. She admitted she had a small crush on him, but that it was purely physical as the guy has nothing going for him (he's in his 20s with a dead-end job, he smokes and drinks almost constantly, is into drugs [reportedly only herbal drugs, e.g., marijuana], and has no ambition to change any of that). We talked a lot that night, and we (she) decided that it would be best if her and I took a "break". I found out about the kiss only a few moments after the "break" was decided. I didn't like it, but if it that's what she wanted to be happy so she could figure things out, I was willing to accept it. We set the terms that although we were on a break, we would still be intimate with each other, and that things with other people were not to progress beyond kissing.

We had plans for a group recreational activity last weekend. She requested the weekend off from work in advance, but then unrelated incidents happened (with the same group of previous friends who didn't respect her; she finally gave up trying to make them like her) and she decided she wasn't going to participate with that group recreational activity anymore. She still had the weekend off and I had already paid to go, so I went, leaving her at home. She told me she would probably spent most of the weekend over at our friends' place so she had something to do and didn't have to stay at home alone, which was understandable.

She slept with JO on the same night I left for the weekend. I had bad feelings all weekend about what was going on, but I thought I was just being panicky. I tend to have a very overactive imagination. When I talked to her on Friday night, before it happened, she told me she was planning on crashing at our friends' house. We discussed it before I left and since she had been drinking, we knew it was for the best. She didn't stay there - she stayed at JO's instead. She admitted that to me on Saturday morning. She also admitted they shared a bed due to lack of places to sleep (crowded apartment), but strongly assured me (though I noticed at the time it was too strongly) that it was innocent and nothing happened. Again, not happy for obvious reasons, but it was better than driving home drunk, and as long as it truly was innocent and they only happened to be physically within a few feet of each other without doing anything, I guess I couldn't be TOO upset about it.

When I came home on Sunday, I attempted to hug and kiss her because I missed her. She responded, but it was very stiff. She wasn't into it. She reciprocated only because I made the move. I asked her what was wrong, and she told me she thought it would be best if we took our break one step further and removed the intimacy from our troubled relationship. Again, I reluctantly agreed, but still wanted to hold onto the boundary of nothing beyond kissing with other people. She accused me of using that to control her, which was her biggest reason for wanting to break up in the first place (in addition to thinking I was "clingy"). I simply stated that I didn't want her to go out and sleep with JO, almost as a joke, and at that moment she simply looked down to the ground and I knew what happened. She confessed everything.

She still sees him. We still live together. They're still sleeping together, but she knows nothing will come of it. She terms her relationship with him as "friends with benefits" and nothing more, confirms me repeatedly that she has absolutely no desire to date him, despite my telling her that there's no such thing as sex without an emotional bond. We both admitted we still have hope for our own relationship, but she's frightened of "being with one person for the rest of her life", even though we've never discussed marriage. She "wants to experience sex with different kinds of people", and she's "unsure of her feelings for me and whether she loves me, the security I provide, or our great sex life, or some combination thereof."

She's been increasingly sexually promiscuous, and although she insists she's practicing safe sex by using condoms, I know that not all STDs are fully prevented by condoms (e.g., herpes). She's messed around up to the point of sex with yet one more guy (one of JO's friends), but it stopped just before that point because he had second thoughts. They did everything else. On one drunken night, she was blacking in and out, but she remembers at one point being down to her undergarments and JO and two of his friends were all "playing" with her. JO was "entertaining" her below, and his two friends were touching and kissing her (only above the waist). She kicked his two friends out and finished the activities with JO. I'm still glad she can admit these things to me, because it means that she can still talk to me about anything, despite how uncomfortable I'm sure she must feel telling me these things due to my obvious bias. But I don't judge - I just listen. I don't make demands or offhanded, rude remarks that would hurt her feelings.

To make things even worse, JO and his circle of friends are all incredibly bad influences. She's been drinking heavily when she goes over there, she's started smoking when she drinks after quitting smoking 6 years ago in her early teens, and since she's the only one with a stable, non minimum-wage job, she ends up paying for most of their activities (usually alcohol). She barely has enough money to cover her share of rent this month. I'm holding onto her check until her next paycheck just because I don't want her to be overdrawn.

She's going down a self-destructive path. I've tried telling her that, clarifying that I was concerned for her as a friend, not as a hurting ex-boyfriend, but she's in denial. She doesn't see it. It hurts to watch her do this to herself when I care so much about her. Her dad and two brothers are the same way in their addictions (smokers, alcoholics, and drugs) and she's always said she never wants to be like them, but that's exactly who she's becoming.

The thing is, I always told myself that if this happened to me I wouldn't forgive it and would end things abruptly before the next sentence was uttered. But now that it's happened, I find myself wanting the exact opposite. I want to forgive her. I want her back, but I can't do so as long as she's involved with JO for obvious reasons.

We still share a bed, though we sleep under different covers. We're still friendly toward each other and even through all these troubles, neither of us have said harsh words. We still hang out, talk openly (even details about her promiscuity), and in general it's still a good friendship. I crossed the line initially when I first found out, but I immediately apologized and told her I didn't mean it, that I was only acting out of shock.

I believe she wants to fix our relationship as well, but I think she's scared. I think she realized how deep her feelings are for me and subconsciously sabotaged our relationship out of a fear of commitment. Despite all that has happened, I've still treated her with respect. My Giver is still strong. I've been giving her her space to do as she pleases, but with assurances that I'll always be there for her if she needs me for anything. I still love her.

She gives me mixed signals too. I can sometimes see in her eyes that she still cares for me. I can feel it in our hugs. She kisses me on the cheek or on the top of the head sometimes, and I can tell in those kisses she still loves me. A few nights ago was the first night since the break-up that she asked me to cuddle with her for a few minutes. She wanted me to hold her.

What do I do? Do I wait for her to make mistakes and realize what she's doing? Do I continue giving her her own space? Every time we talk about "us", I feel it pushes her farther away. Right now she's living both worlds, almost two separate lives. One is the one I've known for the last 3 years, and the other feels like an entirely different personality. She gets her sexual gratification from JO and her emotional needs are fulfilled by me (as far as I know as she's not told me otherwise). It's hard for me to leave it at that, to picture her with other men sexually while I still strongly desire her companionship. I know that if she wants back with me, my two immovable terms are that she never sees JO again, and that she gets tested for STDs. JO is the kind of guy whose partners number in dozens (though he "only" admits to 6 -- now 7, but my friends who've known him for the last several years laugh at that figure), and it's statistically likely he's not completely clean.

UPDATE: In the three days it's taken me to compose this letter before sending it, I slipped up last night in a race of hormones and had sexual relations with her. She told me that I shouldn't expect anything from it and think of it as "two friends having a good time". Part of me regrets doing it, partly due to I'm hoping she's still clean, but also because I know it doesn't help me try to detach. But there's another part of me that says if she's getting her sexual fulfillment from me, it will a) deposit into her Love Bank, and b) hopefully get the "urge" out of her system so that she's not with other guys.

I don't want her out of my life. I can't ask her to move out. I can afford the place on my own, but she doesn't make enough money to support herself on her own. In the best case scenario, she would have to move back in with her dad and brothers mentioned above, and it's not a healthy home physically or emotionally (not abuse), and she would progress further down her self-destructive path. Worst-case, she'd move in with one of her new "friends", from which I fear there may be no returning from that path.

The truth is, despite everything she's done in the last few weeks, especially these last few days, I still want her back. I simply cannot imagine my life without her in it, and truthfully, although I know she isn't/wasn't ready for it due to where she is in life right now (she wants to finish schooling before even thinking about it, which I agree with), I can see marrying her. Even now, when we spend time together, I savor and crave every moment.

I've been doing my best to act out "Plan A", but I'm honestly not sure if it's helping or if she's just taking advantage of me.

Thank you for any advice you can give me.

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A little about me as well: I recently received my Bachelor's degree and I'm making pretty good money. I have what appears to be a rather successful career ahead of myself, and I'm only getting started.

Personally, I know I'm not that attractive. I never have been. I wouldn't consider myself "ugly", but even my girlfriend(?) admitted several months ago that I'm only a 6 out of 10, but that I easily had the potential to be an 8 if I took better care of myself, particularly concerning my weight. During my college years, I put on a bit of extra weight around the stomach (5'10" and ~170lb, used to be ~150-155lb), especially during my senior year while we were together. I promised her that when I graduated, I'd do my best to work it off. Unfortunately, with all the hassles of a new job and moving and trying to get situated in an almost entirely new life, I didn't have the time to work on myself. Ironically, since this whole ordeal, I've been losing some of that weight primarily due to a severely decreased appetite.

As far as she is concerned, she is easily an 8 out of 10 at her worst. When she makes the effort to "pretty up" herself, I *personally* consider her an 11 out of 10, but many agree that she's definitely a 9. In other words, she has no problem getting attention. Unfortunately she rarely sees herself that way because of experiences with previous boyfriends and them getting sexually bored with her (she has a very high sex drive - when possible, she usually prefers it one or more times daily).

I know it's not all about physical attraction, but let's all face it: it counts for something.

Her mind is wonderful too. Although she never finished high school due to family problems at the time, she is highly intelligent about a lot of things, and if I didn't know she never finished high school, I'd never guess. She's smarter than many of my college friends. I've never once considered her intellectually inferior. I've actually thought she was smarter than me on several occasions. She was recently working on finishing her diploma through an accredited local online high school, but since she started hanging out with JO, she hasn't really done anything more on it. She's fallen behind significantly to the point that if I bring it up, it's an instant stress point because she knows how much she has to catch up on, but it just keeps piling up more and more.

Her personality - or at least the one I've known for the last 3 years, not this new one out of nowhere - is amazing. We share many common interests, opinions, and senses of humor. I've always looked forward to seeing her and spending quality time with each other, even if we do nothing productive with that quality time. She's been an amazing partner in every aspect of my life.

We spent most of the day together yesterday and when we're alone, things are amazing and I have hope for us. It feels like we ARE still a couple, even though we're technically not. At the end of the night however, I had to go to bed to wake up in the morning for work (she has today off), and she went over to JO's. She's always been a late night / early morning person, and I am too when I don't have to work the following morning. Unfortunately, she once again didn't come home last night. Despite our having sexual relations twice yesterday, I know deep down that she went over there last night and probably slept with him again as well, and/or "played around" with other guys.

I know a lot of you are probably going to bring up the points that we're a) not married, b) no children, and c) we have no other real lifelong commitments to each other, and will probably say it's best to let her go. But I can't... she's still my best friend. I'm hoping more for advice on what I can or should do to help her and us. At the very least, I want to help her avoid this self-destructive path she's on. With as sexually promiscuous as she's becoming, I know it's going to shatter her self-esteem. Like many women today (unfortunately), she's already harmfully self-conscious. These guys see her as nothing but a sexual object, not as the wonderful person she is inside, but she sees them as friends she can have fun with, and right now her idea of fun is destructive behavior.

I could go on and on, but I've said a lot already and I'd be surprised if anyone read through all of this.

I just... don't know what to do.

Last edited by HopeIsHopeless; 12/05/08 01:40 PM.
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I debated about whether I should put this in Living Together Before Marriage or Infidelity, but in hindsight I think I probably should've put it in Infidelity since it's more appropriate. Can a mod move it please?

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This girl is not ready to be in a committed relationship with anyone, let alone you. Therefore, you have 2 options, continue with things like they are or move on and find someone who wants to grow up. If you like the way this relationship is going, then option 1 is for you. If not, move on. There are plenty of fish in the sea. She has no respect for you or she would have kept your agreements. She is not marriage material at this point and may never be.

Right now her idea of fun is promiscuity. If you just one to be one of those who get to play the game, so be it. If you want to be in a real relationship with someone who can grow to love, respect, and cherish you, then move on. You need to look inside yourself and figure out what YOU want to do.


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
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You need to move on. She has severe morality and integrity issues. What makes you think they would get any better later on? Such things only get worse once you get married and don't 'have' to be on your best behavior to catch the other person.

Save yourself the heartache.

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It doesn't make sense though. She was NEVER like this ONCE in the rest of the time I've known her. In this last month, she's developed an entirely secondary personality.

I just worked out the timeline of events, mostly for my own sanity.

11/11:
* She stood me up for shopping to hang out with friends.
* She kissed JO.

11/12:
* Both of us went to the same friends' place for movie night. She flirted a lot with JO.
* Confronted her about JO, she admitted the kiss.
* She decided to take "a break". Boundaries were set at nothing beyond kissing and we were still intimate.

11/16:
* She and JO went out for a "not date". Cheap dinner and a movie as friends. She promises nothing happened.

11/18:
* Brought her dinner to work since she was working a double shift.

11/19:
* Sex for the last time before the breakup.

11/20:
* I left town for the weekend. She partied all weekend.
* She slept with JO for the first time.

11/23:
* Official break-up. She confessed to cheating on me.

12/1:
* Brought home Chinese takeout for her at her request for dinner.
* WOULD HAVE BEEN our one year anniversary.

12/2:
* Made dinner for her.
* Talked after dinner about her promiscuity and how having sex with other guys won't help her figure out her feelings toward me.
* She went to a friend's house after the talk and fooled around (all but sex because he had second thoughts) with him.

12/3:
* Sex for the first (and second) time since the breakup.

12/4:
* Left work early, spent the entire afternoon/evening with her. Bought her dinner, went shopping. Engaged in sex twice - once when I got home from work (~3pm), once after we got home (~10pm).
* She left to JO's about midnight when I went to bed. Didn't come home.

12/5:
* Bought tickets several months ago to take her to see Robin Williams live stand-up. She's decided it's best if she doesn't go. I'm taking a friend I've hardly spoken to in the last year (he was the other one she was "courting" before choosing me)



Everybody's telling me she's not worth it, that it's a lost cause and I need to ask her to move out now, but I can't do that. I just want what's best for her, and I know that what she's doing now and where it's leading isn't it.

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Originally Posted by HopeIsHopeless
Everybody's telling me she's not worth it, that it's a lost cause and I need to ask her to move out now, but I can't do that. I just want what's best for her, and I know that what she's doing now and where it's leading isn't it.

Maybe it's not, but she's an adult and free to make her own choices. In fact, you are enabling her by sticking around while she does it. You can only control your own actions, not the actions of others. Listen to your friends. Cut your losses and get her out. At least that way there's a chance she'll "see the light" though I doubt it.

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I don't know... maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. Maybe subconsciously I do this to myself. It's not really the first time this has happened to me, though it's by far the most severe and the one that hurts the most.

Am I wrong to still love her? Am I wrong to still want to care for her, to protect her, and to be THERE for her? Am I wrong to want her back?

If this does end the way everyone believes it should, where do I go from here? I've always had trust issues in my relationships, but I keep them to myself most of the time because I know deep inside that I'm overreacting and being generally stupid about it. Unfortunately, this time I wasn't. But now that my thoughts have had confirmation, how do I avoid this situation all over again, whether it's back with her or with someone else?

For that matter, how CAN there be anybody else? I'm a social outcast of sorts. I've never been good at meeting new people. I don't even really know WHERE to meet new people... All I do is work, then go home. My friends are mostly home-bodies too, and on the rare occasion we do something out, it's to a bar (where I don't want to just "hook up" with a random bar floozy) or somewhere we don't really socialize with other people. My friends are all similar to me in that we're just a big group of social outcasts for the most part. I've never really felt good about myself, and now I just feel worse since I was just starting to be okay with who I am these last few months, only to have it all backfire on me. I was the "geeky kid" in high school. I had 2 friends. 2.

I'm saying too much...

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Really she has flunked the test for potential partner. Ask her to move out and keep looking. You sound like a nice guy, and there are lots of nice women out there. Please don't settle.

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Ok, first, do NOT make your decisions about whether to stay with her based on your fear of not meeting someone else. That's just destructive thinking and setting yourself up for a lifetime of misery.

Second, if she truly was never like this, then she is just acting out like all waywards do. They go into a 'fog', an altered reality. People say their WSs have an 'alien' inside them that makes them do unbelievable things. Because the person they're affairing with has become a drug to which they are addicted. Many people have destroyed lives, careers, bank accounts, just to keep getting that fix.

If you were married, you could do an exposure to everyone and you might get her back. As is, you have no grounds to do so. The only way I see you could get her back is to try the Plan A/Plan B route.

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Originally Posted by HopeIsHopeless
If this does end the way everyone believes it should, where do I go from here? I've always had trust issues in my relationships, but I keep them to myself most of the time because I know deep inside that I'm overreacting and being generally stupid about it. Unfortunately, this time I wasn't. But now that my thoughts have had confirmation, how do I avoid this situation all over again, whether it's back with her or with someone else?

I would suggest you read Fall in love, stay in love and his needs, her needs by dr. harley. the 5 love languages by chapman. As to trust, here is what Dr. Harley says,
"One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening.

Originally Posted by HopeIsHopeless
For that matter, how CAN there be anybody else? I'm a social outcast of sorts. I've never been good at meeting new people. I don't even really know WHERE to meet new people... All I do is work, then go home. My friends are mostly home-bodies too, and on the rare occasion we do something out, it's to a bar (where I don't want to just "hook up" with a random bar floozy) or somewhere we don't really socialize with other people.

Somewhere out there is someone (actually probably thousands of women) looking for a loyal, compassionate, good man to marry. Where to meet someone? Church, the library, work, eating at a restaurant. I would agree you definately do not want to "hook up" at a bar. he77, even the internet. I would not be worried about meeting someone, but about finding someone who wants to follow the MB principles. Then you should have a good M from the get go.


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Originally Posted by catperson
Ok, first, do NOT make your decisions about whether to stay with her based on your fear of not meeting someone else. That's just destructive thinking and setting yourself up for a lifetime of misery.

I'll admit I have an extreme fear of that, but I don't believe that's why I want to stay with her. She really does make me happy... even now, whenever we spend quality time together.

Originally Posted by catperson
Second, if she truly was never like this, then she is just acting out like all waywards do. They go into a 'fog', an altered reality. People say their WSs have an 'alien' inside them that makes them do unbelievable things. Because the person they're affairing with has become a drug to which they are addicted. Many people have destroyed lives, careers, bank accounts, just to keep getting that fix.

That sounds 110% exactly like what's going on. I swear it's a split personality.

Originally Posted by catperson
If you were married, you could do an exposure to everyone and you might get her back. As is, you have no grounds to do so. The only way I see you could get her back is to try the Plan A/Plan B route.

A lot of people already know. The two friends we used to hang out with, the two she met JO through, want nothing to do with her. She's not welcome in their apartment anymore. Word of mouth travels fast, especially since they didn't bother hiding it from anyone else who lives in his apartment (5 people in a 2 bedroom apartment doesn't give much room to hide).

I've been trying Plan A, but I'm not entirely certain if I'm doing it right, or if she even appreciates it, or if she's just taking advantage of it. I've been treating her the same as I always have - actually, trying to be better and more attentive, and part of me hopes it's working, but the other part of me thinks that she's treating it as if what she's doing is okay, that she can sleep with other people in addition to me and I'll still treat her the same. It's really hard to enact Plan A sometimes... but at the same time it's not. It's hard because I don't know if it's working or if my efforts are for naught. But it's easy because I WANT to do it. I still want her to be happy, even if it's only the small things I can provide her. Every little bit counts.

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Originally Posted by HURTandSHOCKED
As to trust, here is what Dr. Harley says,
"One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening.

Yeah, I read that in the several dozens of articles on the website I've gone through the last 2-3 weeks. That's why I'm here - Dr. Harley's advice is really hitting home. It makes SENSE.

Originally Posted by HURTandSHOCKED
Somewhere out there is someone (actually probably thousands of women) looking for a loyal, compassionate, good man to marry. Where to meet someone? Church, the library, work, eating at a restaurant. I would agree you definately do not want to "hook up" at a bar. he77, even the internet. I would not be worried about meeting someone, but about finding someone who wants to follow the MB principles. Then you should have a good M from the get go.

I've never been a religious man, I don't feel comfortable in a library (I don't read many books), I'm the youngest person at work by several years (and there are only 3 females here anyway, all significantly older and married), and I feel like a loser if I eat alone. It makes the loneliness worse because then I'm left alone to my own thoughts in a bad environment.

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you have male friends you can do casual things with. the best place to meet women are places you feel comfortable. eating lunch with buddies, at the gym (if you want to get back in shape), bowling alley, clubs, etc. However, you sound like you would not be very comfortable in a club, so that is probably out. I think you are too self-conscious and derogatory to yourself. From what I have gleaned, you are a wonderful person. Just b/c you are a geek or dork or a little overweight does not mean that you can't meet someone. Being yourself and having fun is how you meet someone to marry.


Me: 32 BS DDay: 9/14/08
Slowly coming to the realization that I
am one of those who can't get past it.
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Haha, me in a club? Trust me - I don't dance for YOUR safety. People might die. Besides, I associate clubs with the same stigma as bars -- girls I meet there are usually more looking for one-night stands...

I dunno... I need a hobby, I know that. I'm working during lunch so that's out. I'm too self-conscious to go to the gym (I'm an uncomfortably hairy man). I've gone bowling a few times, but most of my friends are introverts like me. I still consider it a blessing at all that I met the girl in my life right now.

I'm not even sure if I'm ready for marriage, but I'd just like to be happy, especially during the holiday season. Just once. That'd be great. The last two years I lost my job. The year before that I was utterly alone. The year before THAT my then-girlfriend was on vacation out of state falling in love with another guy. The list goes on... I think I'm cursed.

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No, you're just self-destructive.

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I've never been a religious man, I don't feel comfortable in a library (I don't read many books), I'm the youngest person at work by several years (and there are only 3 females here anyway, all significantly older and married), and I feel like a loser if I eat alone. It makes the loneliness worse because then I'm left alone to my own thoughts in a bad environment.
So try religion. I recommend the Universalist Unitarian church. It's all about thinking and questioning, i.e., the geek's perfect church.

So go to the library and ask the librarian to find you something to get you started. I promise, once you realize all the worlds you can get lost in, in books, you'll never want to leave. People are always going to libraries and just sitting around, reading, talking to people, using their Internet, renting movies.

Then get a book, go to a restaurant, and read while you eat. That's what I do, and I love it. I actually turn down lunch dates so I can eat alone and have time to read a book.

Same thing for movies. Take a book with you, and read the book until the movie starts. That way you don't feel uncomfortable being alone. You're too busy reading.

Finally, go to www.unitedway.org and find your local center, call them up, and ask them to help you find a volunteer position. This will be your number one way to (1) increase your self-esteem (helping others does wonders); (2) meet other good-natured people; and (3) look great in front of women! Plus you're helping people who are in worse shape than you, which is good for them and helps you realize you needn't be so down on yourself. Christmas is coming up; tons of places needing help, like food pantries, old folks homes, hospitals...

In other words, start filling up your life with YOU stuff, not HER stuff.

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How do you consider me self-destructive? I'm not getting defensive, I'm just curious.

I think part of the reason why I avoid the library is because I practically grew up in one. My mom worked in the public library system almost my entire childhood, and I spent wayyy too many hours there as a child. I guess I got sick of it because I *had* to be there.

Why does this have to be so hard? She didn't come home last night as I said above, and she wasn't responding to any of my text messages. I said, "good night. I had a good time with you tonight" last night and she never responded, when ordinarily we always said good night to each other, especially when we weren't together at night). I also sent her a message about 2am asking if she was coming home, no response. I sent a message about 1pm today asking if she was even awake, no response.

So I did something stupid. And yes, probably self-destructive because deep down I knew what I would find out.

I called her on my late lunch break. I woke her up at 3pm, apparently. They were up until 7am with a group of people, reportedly "socializing and playing Guitar Hero", but I know the truth... She didn't even try to deny that she was in bed with JO. She mentioned he twitches a lot in his sleep and she was elbowed a few times. I heard him snoring.

I wish I was able to just wash my hands of this without emotion.

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No worries. By self-destructive I mean that you are your own worst enemy at this point. Before you even take a single step, you have defined yourself as a loser. What's up with that?

As LA would tell you, every human on this planet is worthwhile and has something to offer. But YOU have to see it in you, first. But you protect yourself by telling everyone way out front - before they even get to know you - that you're a loser. 'So don't expect much from me.'

Self-defeating prophecy.

What's it gonna take for you to start being proud of yourself? Cus she NEVER will be, if you aren't.

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Asking myself what's it going to take for me to be proud of myself is a great start. Make a list of everything you have going for you. Examples: A FOUR year degree...that's a lot of hard-earned repsect from me and every person on here probably-BE PROUD!!, your family, your CLOSE friends (good true close friends are farely hard to come by), specific talents, a nice vehicle (?), make your work obvious to others and you'll get more positive reinforcement-you can take that to the bank all day long, present ideas to your peers...etc.

You can also make a list of things you really want to improve in your life. I've made my lists and it has put everything in a structured perspective.

Man, I've been in familar situations such as yours. I bet you have a different take on what relationships need/require now don't you? I'm going through my own tribulations as well...there's a point where it's okay for you to not care about what others thank of you or how they treat you...YOU HAVE TO COVER YOUR OWN BUTT my friend.

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I haven't posted in a long time, but something in your post reminded me of myself some years ago.

As I understand it, your live-in girfriend is cheating on you, yes? And you have no children together?

If this is the case, then kick her to the curb yesterday.

I had a live-in girlfriend cheat on me not once, not twice, but three times before I finally moved out. My need to be respected finally overcame my fear of being alone.

Read that again.

My need to be respected finally overcame my fear of being alone.

It's been said that the dating phase is the evaluation phase for marriage. The 'tryouts' if you will. Being faithful is one of the most basic tests imaginable, and she's failed. Next!

Reclaim your power and kick her to the curb. Look into the mirror in the morning and see someone you respect.



Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
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