FWIW, only once in their 2-year A did the OM and my FWW make any reference in their correspondence to having sex, and even then only obliquely. I think the OM knew that part of my FWW's way of "coping" with her choices was to simply not discuss them, and he played the role well.

And... that reference to "haven't EVEN kissed in over a month" suggests to me that something MORE than kissing has happened already.

BigK, I don't intend to get into a pi$$ing match with you. You have your opinions based on your experiences and I have mine, but the list above goes a long way in proving my point.

You see, with the Wonderings, there definately WAS an ultimatum, it just wasn't from Mr. Wondering ... and IT WORKED beautifully. I have seen both of the Wonderings post of the great strength and instincts displayed by Mrs. Wondering's mother in breaking up her A.

I don't see where Bob Pure has a M that could be described as Recovered by any definition, other than the fact that they are still married. I have a lot of empathy and respect for BP ... as I understand, he acted with a lot of strength upon discovery, but he lacked the other necessary ingredient ... a remorseful and recommitted WW.

This topic always brings up heated discussions when addressed, and I think it is obvious why many would get defensive, but if anyone here would take a big step back and view the data impartially, I feel the majority would agree that BH's who take definitive action, and refuse to be their WW's doormat, fare much better whether their recovery is marital or personal.

We can debate the qualities of a "strong" BH, but most of us can recognize the "weak" BH's here very quickly, and I am of the opinion that Plan A, etc. is terrible advice for the "weak" BH's as it just compounds the problems in their M that already exists and likely contributed to the A in the first place.

I've said my peace on the subject, and won't T/J tC9's thread anymore, plus I need to get away from the computer and get outside for a little "MyRev Sanity Maintenance" for myself and my bird dogs.

Have a good weekend.

"Real man"? Try "human being with at least a little self-respect". Once the BH knows about the affair, banging OM ONE MORE TIME AFTER THAT, whether they've had sex once or 1,000 times before d-day, should be unacceptable.



0 times is OK. 1 is worse than 0, 2 is worse than one, 3 is worse than 2...see the pattern here?


Huh? So, you should only keep your WW if you CAN handle one more time? Heck, why bother to try and end the affair at all?


Probably.

Who knows? If WS is remorseful and realizes the mistake and takes actions necessary to prevent it from happening again, I would say no. What about children? Real men is subjective, so each of us has a different definition of what makes "a real man". In my world, a real man would give his life for his wife and children (but not FWW, at least not yet).

But don't get me wrong, this question goes through my mind at least once a day (on a good day).

confused,

When you get the chance, you may want to pick up a few books on the importance of emotional intimacy to women. Most women, definitely me, need the romance and emotional connection to really desire and get into the physical intimacy. I can't speak for your wife, but just in case she is one of those women who has the terrible affliction of needing and wanting to be romanced by our husbands and to feel special to and receive affection by our husbands, it would do you a world of good to realize that that need can be just as important or even more so as the need for SF is to a lot of men.

And continuing this throughout a long term marriage is just as reasonable as continuing a satisfying SF relationship throughout a long term marriage is.

Krazy, I think you are missing the point. You advocate nuclear war for anybody that toelerates beyond YOUR personal boundary -- continued contact/sex.

All BS who are trying to reconcile try to rationalize in some way that their situation wasn't that bad BECAUSE (fill in the blank). My WW hadn't been with OM physically in three months on my D-day. Big deal, but I cling to that.

Other people's boundaries might be different, stronger or weaker.

TC9, you may still be able to get some of their emails even if they go online. Once you know her email account info through the keylogger, see if that mail system has support for automatic mail forwarding. I know gmail and yahoo both do (you may have to upgrade for yahoo). Set her account to forward it to your own account. You won't be able to see what she sends, but you'll get all the mail he sends her.

Do not use your own email as the forwarded address. Make it something official sounding. Like, if her email is ww@gmail.com, make your address ww-virusscanner@gmail.com. That way if she does see it, it will look like it's supposed to be there.

that is a pretty good idea.


My email access situation has changed in the last few days, since I pressured her to show me her account. She has since agreed to give me her password, but is no longer using that account to contact OM. But, I was able to find out OM's new email address before she agreed to give me access.

The problem right now is that she hasn't used any new email accounts on our home computer yet. From that I can only draw 2 conclusions, 1) that she decided not to contact the OM anymore via email, or 2) she is suspicious that I am using a keylogger and only signing into that account from work. I am leaning toward scenario 2.

I feel very much in the dark now that I don't have any email info.

MIM,



I see what you are saying here, but it wasn't the lack of discussion about SF, it was the active discussion of weather or not either of them wanted to go forward with SF that leads me to believe that haven't gone all the way yet. Maybe this is foolish on my part, but it does help keep me going that 'maybe' i caught this just in time.

The only ultimatum given in our situation went to the OM...Mr. W and my mom conspired together to do this...I was completely unaware that it happened until more than a year after the fact...That worked beautifully in our situation, yes...Mr. W was not the "villain" in my eyes because I didn't know what had happened to cause the "dumping" of me by OM and our recovery was greatly aided by that...

I would not advocate that an ultimatum be given to an active WW...Especially in an affair where there has been an emotional attachment established between the WW and OM...The addiction factor is INCREDIBLY STRONG in those situations - WW is now in the "I can't not do it" phase...Unless the BH is prepared to go forth with the ultimatum that is, because if the ultimatum is thrown down and doesn't create the scenario that the BH is hoping for [WW immediately ending the affair], then he has effectively painted himself into a corner and if he doesn't follow through with his "threat" he is in a seriously weak position...

Being able to do Plan A is a position of the utmost strength, imo - a hero's gig...I am completely awed by those that undertake it...Self worth/Self respect are NOT things that are tied to another person...those things are derived solely from SELF [or should be]...Plan A is an ACTION, it is not a REACTION...

Mrs. W

Ahh....I think you are lucky. I wish I'd put in a keyboard logger 4 months before I did...

For Gmail:


Be creative. You can find her new email address and password.

Good idea, but if I reset her password, she'll know i found the account.

What if the secondary email address is WW's work?

her primary email she has been using is work, but i have access to that. Unfortunately, I just tried the above mentioned technique, and there are no google accounts associated with her work account.

What about Yahoo? Hotmail? Those are the main ones.

Also, if her work email is cie732@university.edu, try cie732@gmail.com.

Hopefully she is lazy and just uses the same password.

Looked at hotmail, but hotmail is now part of Windows Live and I didn't see any link to recover a lost username. I tried testing yahoo's username recovery by setting up my own yahoo account, but even when i knew all the required information, it still didn't find the account i had just setup. Maybe it takes a little while for the system to update after making a new account.

her university email is just last name followed by first initial, and we have a very common last name, so i am sure all of those are taken at the most common webmail sites.

<bump> TC how are u?

Mike,

I'm doing ok. The weekend went pretty well. Convinced WW to read His Need, Her Needs like Steve H suggested, but so far, she hasn't cracked it open yet. She still isn't open to the idea of talking to a counselor yet.

The bad news is that I think I may have lost my email access. I still have access to her work account, but since Tuesday there have been no emails between them. Normally, this would be a good thing, but since the last email I saw was to an alternate account of his, the only thing I can assume is that they are using different email accounts now. However, she hasn't logged into any other email account other than her normal work account since Tuesday, so I think that she is assuming I am using a keylogger, probably OM's suggestion, and only using it while at work. So, I am totally in the dark right now and not sure what to do.


Anyone ever use a remote keylogger that installs itself on a remote PC through email? This is the only way I can think of finding out her new email account and password since she isn't using it at home. The only problem with using one of those is that I could probably be illegal since it would automatically install itself on a university owned computer and then transmit information to me.

TC, it would be smart if you put a little signature summary in like some of us have, since it is hard to keep all these plotlines straight. Be wordy and complete since you are in an active situation and can use correct timely advice.