Well,
I have been off line again - and have really bad news to report.
WH is not coming at Christmas. He had 3 'intro' sessions with the psych and the psych now wants to see him two times per week. So - he decided he needs to stay there.
Meanwhile, I have been weepy and a mess and not doing a good job on plan A.
I am really losing hope. He plans to come near the end of January or February... so I guess he's spending the holidays with her and her daughter.
I will be alone here with the three kids. The kids are starting to act out. The 7 year old is angry a lot. The just turned 5 year old is sad. The baby who is just two seems fine. I am trying to keep it together for them and not being on this website for 5 days got me off track.
So, RHW, if you are still there, keep cheerleading and praying for me. I am doing what I can but feeling very sad and very overwhelmed with the situation.
I am nursing the baby still and do not know if I can take anti-depressants but maybe I should. I was thinking of this just today as I am definitely starting to have trouble coping.
I feel like if I want to keep any hope of continuing to love him, the pain will never go away. So I either have to live with the pain or I have to give him up completely and just move on. Does that make sense?
What to do.
hugs
Q

You need to go to a doctor! Your child can drink formula. She can't drink anything if you are too messed up to take care of her.

You also need a support group! Find something, anything, people you can be with, things you can do. Find a babysitting co-op, a Mother's Day Out program, church stuff...anything! Get moving!

Dear Q,

I'm so sorry to hear that you are in this unfortunate situation. I feel a great deal of empathy for you. I know all about the anguish of being left behind alone with three small children in a foreign country (in my case however I did not know at that time that my husband was ******* other women when he was abroad).

I remember feeling very sad and depressed as well, making it hard to deal with children and give them proper structure. When they feel mommy is sad, they may act out to get attention and it makes everything worse. Please do consider anti-depressants and feeding the baby formula.

When I was alone in a foreign country, what kept me alive and functioning was the network of friends and the fun activities that came with expat life. There were a lot of young SAH mothers with frequently absent husbands, so we formed a good support network for each other. Being alone too much was the worse I could do as it made me realize how sad and lonely I was.

As to your husband, wouldn't it be possible to go to Europe yourself for Christmas? I would tell him that you understand and applaud his need for continued therapy but that you and the children miss him terribly and that you all want to be with him.

In addition, perhaps you could ask your husband that you would very much like to have one or two sessions with his therapist together with him during the Christmas holidays. As I wrote you above, I did this and it was an important step in my husband's turn-around and our eventual recovery.

I wish you all the best. Don't give up hope yet. My own situation looked very, very bleak but we recovered, as my husband's therapist was able to make him see how self-destructive he was acting.

I will keep you in my thoughts,

Silda

Am a bit better today. I am taking a trip with the kids and babysitter to another island tomorrow morning. It is a scheduled trip as we must leave here every 3 months to keep tourist status. (I am still a resident in Europe for a number of reasons that aren't important to this discussion). We are staying at a luxury hotel (purchased cheap on priceline) and I am REALLY looking forward to it. It will be 5 days of relax. My babysitter knows all about the situation, knows WH well and is a good person to talk to. She also knows about plan A.
I am wondering if and when I should move into plan B. I absolutely cannot afford to go to Europe over the holidays and have friends visiting from the 13th for two weeks. They are a couple with two kids and that is also something huge to look forward to. I also have a surf clinic one the week of the 15th that is all day every day for 5 days and will be VERY fun. So - I do have a lot going on and a lot to look forward to.

At the same time I feel very alone and feel the burdens of caring for everything all alone. It just feels so sad and I feel incredibly sad that my childrens future is not what I imagined. I am extremely attached to my kids and they are everything to me. I see them acting in ways that I know are directly related to this situation and it is breaking my heart. Also that WH is totally unremorseful, totally non-present, - feeling very abandoned. Today the 7 year old lost his first tooth and WH doesn't even know about it. Yesterday the 5 year old caught a barracuda while fishing and WH did find out, but over the phone. Same deal with 5 yo's birthday. WH does not even plan to send x-mas presents even though here there is nearly nothing for sale. I asked him and he wanted to know how much shipping would cost, etc... but how much will he spend on her... it just kills me.

Silda I appreciate your input from someone who has been in my shoes a bit.

Catperson too thank you for the advice.

hugs

Oh, Q, I'm so sorry. I know how much you were preparing to show him the best in-house Plan A ever.

But if he's decided not to come home, it probably wouldn't have worked, and you'd have been hurt even more. You are right to assume his change of plans has absolutely nothing to do with psych appointments. (Just for the record, you could call to "confirm" his appt dates for the next few weeks...but then you'd have to call him on it. I would think that would be a prelude to Plan B, and you've not given any indication you're ready for that.)

So, what DO you want to do at this point? Have you got ANY love left? If so, would you consider presenting yourself in Europe where he lives? Telling him you're there to stand for the marriage. Do you have the resources (emotional AND financial) to do that?

I did that, and it was VERY hard when I discovered continued contact after living with him for 3 weeks. And when I confronted him, he threw ME out and refused any contact with ME for 5 horrible weeks afterward. But during that time, I learned later, he ended the affair and actually suggested the MB weekend (after talking to Steve Harley twice "to help ME move on.") Ya never know which way a football will bounce when it hits the ground. Waywards are a lot like that, I've discovered.

The thing that's killing me here is that I'm almost certain he will want to reunite with you at some point, but he dally too long for it to make a difference to you. An A can take a couple of YEARS to fizzle, and I'm not sure you have the strength to wait that long (I sure wouldn't have).

So, Q. Where are you in all this? We want what you want, and will try to help you no matter what you choose. The only other thing I can offer you till you know is my prayers. You have them in spades.

((((Q))))

Right Here Waiting

Does it help to know that there are those of us who would kill to be able to be living like you are? Living in the places you live, giving your kids this kind of exposure to the world and culture and all that? You're a great mother; he doesn't deserve you.

Sounds nice, yes, but I'll bet she'd rather be living with a faithful H in a small flat with no amenities....

I hope those little luxuries will help keep her sane until the day they reunite.

RHW

Not what I said, RHW. I was trying to make her feel better.

Maybe it did. I hope so. Wouldn't have helped me--I would've gone straight to "I don't want a vaca. I WANT MY LIFE BACK."

Different strokes for different folks...

I am still trying to figure out what I want. Financially I am very scared. It is fine now that I am on a nice vacation but I feel like this may be the last time and I also am feeling sad about not being able to spend money that once I would have been free to spend. I am very glad to be able to show the kids the world - but the truth is that I fell in love with my WH when he had zero money and we couldn't go on any trips. I loved him. it's not where we live or what we have.

I do love that the kids get to explore, be outdoors, live more freely than in the States or Europe but I would give anything to have a happy marriage.

I want the old him back and I know it's going to take time and therapy. I am trying to hang on.

I have contacted his psych to make sure it's legit and I have contacted a lawyer in Europe who is going to be a big help.

When I speak to WH on the phone he says, 'oh hi' with a very, very sweet tone in his voice. I am thinking I need to go to plan B even though plan A was not very successful. He knows I'm here, pretty stable, doing a good job with the kids. I do feel I am by far the best choice and feeling confident about myself. I may give it one more week of good plan A and then go to B.

Did someone say plan B was good around the holidays?

All the X-mas music in the stores is really gettng to me. I was grocery shopping yesterday and the music about 'I'll be home for X-mas and such' was making me sooooo sad. The kids and I alone here.

i don't know, maybe we will go to Europe. We just cannot stay with the in-laws. I have thought about this and I hate my FIL more and more and more and more. He was violent with WH. I am convinced WH's problems all stem from him and I'm even mad at MIL for allowing FIL to treat her like he did and does. (verbal abuse, i'm better than you, you're stupid... ). I simply cannot go stay at their house for more than 2 days without exploding.

More later...

Thanks again.

Hi Q,

Just checking in on you. Sounds like you've regained some equilibrium, and are considering your next move.

It only makes sense to go to Europe if you intend to continue Plan A a bit longer. If you've got the intestinal fortitude, I'd say go for it. But don't stay long enough to spend every remnant of the love you have left. If WH really IS seeing psych as much as he says, he could be wavering, but of course, you can't count on that at this point. If you were there, you could more easily determine what is lies and what is truth. If it's more lies, I agree, Plan B, for your sake.

Understand you wouldn't want to stay with FIL/MIL. Where would you stay?

I continue to pray that God will swing His great cosmic baseball bat at WH. AND that you will be living in the same country together after that happens.

And that you can find some peace this Christmas season...


Right Here Waiting

Can someone tell me when the right time to go into plan B is? Or some good links?

Since I am feeling pretty down lately, it will be hard to continue plan A. We speak maybe once per day and I cannot for the life of me muster up enough courage to try to meet his EN's in one short conversation. Especially when I just want to cry.

He knows I'm on this other island, knows I'm having fun. I have made it clear that I was really looking forward to this trip, that we were doing a million nice things back home before I left, that I have the friends visiting, the surf camp... trying to make it all sound wonderful but I can barely do it because what I want to do is cry.

I am thinking that since maybe we are on a slightly good note I should just cut him off. I do think he is seeing the psych although appts are Tue and Thurs and this thursday he has a business trip so will only go once this week.

Am doing my best that the kids have a really happy holiday season and trying to keep my spirits up. Am really up in the air as to what the next move is.

I will keep you posted and please any comments are more than welcome.

hugs
Q

I think the goal is to go to Plan B when you are afraid of losing your love for H, or when you simply can't Plan A any more(it hurts too much to go on like this). And it seems like him being alone for the holidays would be a great way to show him how miserable he'll be without his family. But are you up to a Plan B?

Hi Catperson,
I think I'm up to it but I also think I haven't plan A'd sufficiently. Maybe one more really good week of Plan A... and then I'll do it at the holidays.

Today I was able to put up a very, very happy front. But I don't think I met any en's. He did not talk to us yesterday and when he called today he did not ask to speak with the kids. upsetting.

I am thinking that since he left us (not separation - for work of course)... I can cut him off entirely so he will see what life will be like without us (not just without me). Maybe give him a separate cell phone number that will be available one hour per day when he can call the kids and they will answer, not me. They are too young for e-mail. If he wants more than that, he can come back.

I don't know - I am just thinking out loud. I am awaiting my lawyers response as to how custody could go with our very international situation. I would like to use that as much as I can as leverage. I will have info on that any time now.

I know the relationship with OW is a joke and a fantasy. Does he really think he can move into a house with her and her daughter? It is so crazy as to be beyond my imagination. He will NEVER be able to live with kids who are not his three kids. Meanwhile - WHY does he not see any of this? I continue to hope and pray she does not get pregnant.

Her ex-boyfriend (father of her child) told me that WH and OW plan to sleep together for the first time the day they move in together. This I find to be the craziest, most controlling thing I can imagine. She wants his $$$$ and she wants an apartment in the historic center. She will give him sex when he gives her an apartment??!!! And she is his soulmate...

Sorry, just venting. As to him and plan A and today, I told him our vacation is super luxurious, super relaxing and wonderful. Which it is - but the pain doesn't go away anyway. (I didn't say that). I made it sound like all is great though. And then I hung up and felt like it all was great. And it has been ever since that phone call. I need to stay strong. But I no longer feel any desire to meet his EN's. I feel a lot of hate towards him to tell the truth.

So... add HUGE mood swings to all my other problems.

Will keep trying plan A until further notice. I am thinking I want to go to Plan B in about a week, though. Over the holidays.

That's my confusion for now.
Thanks for listening.

OK - I sent him a couple of nice e-mails today after a sort of cold phone conversation (on my part). I say cold because I just tried to get off the phone fast and was pretty obvious about it. He told me to give a message to our babysitter who is a mutual friend and I just said ok, ok talk to you later... and tried to hang up and then he stopped me but I did it again anyway minutes later. Was not warm and fuzzy.

Today the babysitter saw me across the pool and said that when she saw me she thought she was looking at a model before she realized it was me. Maybe she was just being nice - but I don't usually get called a model - so I figure it is time to send a few photos of the 'trip' - namely me in my bikini looking fantastic - to WH. So I sent a few of the kids and a few of me and the kids in my bathing suit... with a really nice message. Talking about some of our activities and at the end signed,
"I love you and miss you." I typed that and erased it 10 times before hitting send and tried other variations or no signature at all. But maybe loving and missing will fill some EN's. I dunno anymore!!

Anyway - he it is the middle of the night his time and he'll see it in the AM. I had also told him we will not talk until at least Friday because of his psych appt today and business trip thurs and Fri. So sending this mail threw things off a bit but he doesn't need to respond. I figure I need to push it a bit before going to plan B.

Is next week too soon to go into plan B?? I would like to wait maybe two weeks but also want it to happen at the holidays. And not just on the 25th - but with enough time for it to sink in.

That is my main question.

Thanks again for listening.
Q

I'll defer to the experts here, but I hear that you will 'know' when it's time to go to Plan B. If you're still trying to connect with him by the holidays, don't sweat it; Plan B can come later and still work. It's mainly about protecting yourself, not punishing him. you know.

'It's mainly about protecting yourself, not punishing him. you know.'

Oh yeah. Please keep reminding me though! You are so thoughtful Catperson. Thank you. I have to be the best me I can be and you are right. I am thinking of punishing him i guess. But what about making him realize what it will be like without me and all that? Well, we will see... but I suppose you are right. It could work anytime, not just at the holidays.

Actually this brings up a huge prob in our relationship. He tells me I try to punish him and I don't think I do. But I am sure that there is some truth to it and need to figure out a way to stop. But it is hard to stop a behavior that I don't even notice I have.

Thx

Q,

I'm hearing you running out of steam. Even saying you hate him. Understandable, really. He's done so much to hurt you, and HE is the one who cancelled the Christmas visit. Tells me he is still very actively wayward, which also means he is not feeling the effect of any EN you've been trying to meet (although he WILL remember how you behaved once the fog begins to clear, so don't worry about that).

I doubt very seriously that he will be alone during that time. What makes you say that he will? Did I miss something?

Before you attempt Plan B, please get your ducks in a row. Sounds like you are doing the legal part. Need to find a good IM who will be the ONLY one who gets ANYTHING from him through to you. Must be someone stalwart who "gets" that the only thing he/she is to do is pass info about kids and money matters, and will tell him NOTHING about what you are doing/not doing. He/she can voice NO personal opinions or give either of you ANY advice. Their function is to protect your self-imposed darkness, like a sentry. Nothing more.

You will have to send WH a Plan B letter (there are examples here--hopefully others can tell you where to find them). In it, you will spell out your NON-NEGOTIABLE conditions for him getting together with you, even to "talk."

They must include, at a minimum:

1)NC with OW, and a commitment to NC forever, with a letter to her to that effect that YOU review and mail.

2)a commitment to LIVE TOGETHER in a place you mutually agree upon and to actively work on rebuilding your M.

3)continued IC and MC, if that is what you want.

And anything else that is critical, in your mind, for recovery.


Catperson's point about punishing is well taken. It's SO hard for us BS's to control our justifiable anger all the time. That's why Dr. Harley directs our attention to avoiding LB's when we deal with them.

Maybe it helps to know that, once this is over, you won't NEED to punish WH. He will be doing that himself!

Right Here Waiting

Yes,

RHW, I am running out of steam.

But do you really think I've plan A'd long enough?

I am feeling like plan b will work and I'm thinking of giving it two more weeks.

I have this stupid and crazy idea that if I do it now, right now, -he will still honor his plane ticket on Dec 16th. He still hasn't changed it. If he doesn't change it, he will lose it. The good news is that one of the reasons he hasn't changed it is that he is scared the airline people will not speak his language. He gets nervous speaking to people in English. It is soooooo easy to change the darn ticket but he is not doing it with the English excuse. Makes me feel better that he wouldn't do counseling in English either with the same excuse. He did HAVE AN AFFAIR ENTIRELY IN ENGLISH however.... aaaargh.... and it was mostly an EA as far as I can understand.

. I feel like this A is such a joke. It seems impossible that it is happening and I'm getting madder and madder that he would sacrifice all of us for this stupid, stupid, stupid nonsense. It really hurts.

You are so right that I need to prepare. I do not know where to begin so I guess I do need to figure all that out.

number 1 - The lawyer is in the works.

number 2 - The conditions for his coming back - how does that work? Do I spell all that out right now in my letter to him (not right now but at the moment I do it?). How much detail?

number 3 - Is the intermediary someone I know? I was hoping to use our babysitter who is also a friend but she is biased towards me. I wanted to use her because I was thinking of giving the kids a cell phone to use where he could call them but only during hours where she would be there to supervise. I was thinking it could be turned on one hour per day only - but maybe we could leave it on all the time when she is there. (maybe it would be punishing him to only leave it on for one hour - but I can't help but want to do it that way. Then I can be away at that time - go to the grocery store, go jogging - whatever.

number 4 - tell me more about going dark with kids in the picture. Kids are too small to use e-mail. But they can have their own cell phone.

Where can I get some sample plan B letters?

What else do I need to know?

Maybe I should start a new thread with these questions.

Hugs

Also - one more question.

While still in Plan A, am I allowed to talk about the relationship? Am I allowed to say that I realize i've made some mistakes - take some blame for our relationship problems. Not the affair, obviously - I know that much. But for my share of the relationship.

The truth is that I've been doing some reading and some thinking and some work on myself and also just taking to heart some of Catpersons responses to me. Repeatedly telling me not to punish him. How can I have overlooked this. How cruel have I been to him without wanting to be?

WH has accused me repeatedly of trying to punish him. I did not see that and did not listen. Now some of the reading I have done talks about women remaining silent about problems in their relationship with H. This 'silence' breeds contempt and the contempt leads to punishment (me punishing him). The punishment is meant to 'change' H but he reads it as control and so on and so forth. So I have been controlling and revengeful (punishing) without really wanting to be so and without listening to WH's complaints about that. It's just that I never really learned in my life how to get it right.

(When I talk about silence I don't mean I was 'silent'. I mean that I tried and tried and then gave up and decided that I could stay married to this man despite the problems - and in giving up, remained silent about problems that were actually very important. Then I wanted revenge.)

Can I say the above? Is it too late? Is it better to deal with this in MC when and if that time comes?

Could it do any good to say it now?

Thanks sooooooo much.

xx