I have trouble telling people this being a xww but ..... I really do think you need to get her out of your home and out of your life.

She moved into your home on the basis of girlfriend & boyfriend with a potential to move the relationship on... perhaps to marriage. SHE has decided she does not want that. ok thats her choice... BUT it is also for HER to face consequences ALONE for choosing that.... mine were for choosing an affair ... like her. The difference I guess is that there was a long history of M and children to build back for myself. Your 'girlfriend' was there just for a year.
During that year it appears she was flirting with many of your friends or others...all red flag stuff ... I do feel you are still in a bit of denial here.

HH YOU have done NOTHING wrong ... please understand that one BIG fact. However you must also understand that YOU cannot save this woman from herself. My H... my family.. my friends... the MB friends here could NOT save me from myself ... I had to do that. So will your X girlfriend and I don't feel from your posts of her actions she is ANY where near wanting to even think of this. SHE is happy as Larry.. she has a boyfriend to have SF with, a previous boyfriend to support her and house her ... why would she change?????? :RollieEyes:

The situation is very unhealthy for you... she has contempt for you and I really do think she has been using you for some time... her actions speak for her I feel in this situation. If you listen to your friends ...I am guessing ...you may find there have been a lot of girl-fiend going on as opposed to girlfriend in the last year ... you like other betrayed partners just did not or did not want to see it. See YOU trusted her totally. AGAIN this is not YOUR fault. It is hers as it was mine.

You have your whole life in front of you... don't allow this woman to hurt you any more. Sometimes HH a relationship.. even a M is not worth saving... should not be saved.. even the good Dr will tell you that. HH you do have good instincts ... maybe just not the experience in life yet but hey we ALL were there you know... look how long it took me to smarten up!! ... remember you were concerned about moving in together and expressed some of your doubts ... and YOU were right.

HH you really need for your sake to tell her to go .. let her new 'boyfriend' support her ... let him be her 'bestest' buddy and be there when she needs someone ... let him HOUSE her and her attitude.

HH do you really think she is going to be there for you over the holidays? She'll make a bee line for the new man in her life ... I'm saying help her along and make her go there... permanently.

You are worthy of a far better person as a partner ... and there are just tons of women out there who are eager to meet a man who is not a jerk.

Start the New Year without her ... she is not M material and not likely to be for some time.

Oh .. and try those church and other meet new people ideas .... you may be amazed at how much fun you will have.

AW

The mixed signals keep coming and going. An update from my last post:

On Friday, after I woke her up at JO's in the late afternoon, she went back to bed and reportedly slept in until 5pm. She told me she came home about 7pm. By that time, I was already on my way to the comedy show I was supposed to take HER to with a friend instead. She texted me a general "have fun", to which I didn't respond. Several minutes later, she texted again, saying "Aw... I'm being ignored..." -- which was true. I felt I didn't need to respond to her because she hadn't responded to me in the last 16 hours. She sent one more text, saying she was concerned and "can you at least respond so I know you're not dead?". I finally responded - and lied - saying that I was fine and I didn't respond because I didn't feel my phone go off.

So I get to the show, and she texts me again, saying "I wish I could've gone", to which I simply responded, "You COULD have...". I guess I was feeling a little bitter about it, and when we got to our seats, I felt the need to sort of rub it in by saying "wow, these are really good seats". I go out to try to find something to drink and give her a call while I'm wandering around. She's home, and she's crying. We talk for a few minutes about mostly trivial stuff, then she abruptly ends the conversation saying she has to go in a sobbing voice.

We stop for dinner on the way home after the show, and she's texting me again, asking when I'd be home. I told her I didn't know and was estimating about an hour, maybe more, maybe less. She said she was intending on waiting up for me to get home but was having a hard time keeping her eyes open, and to just wake her up when I get back.

So I get home, and I start heading upstairs to the bedroom, and there she is at the top of the stairs, surprisingly wearing one of my shirts (she's NEVER done that). I reach the top of the stairs and she gives me one of the biggest hugs in a long time, saying she missed me. We talk for a while, and I ask her if she missed me or if she just missed me not being home when she came back. She couldn't explain her feelings, and I don't think she wanted to admit it, but I gleamed that she actually missed me. She also said that she had the intention of wanting sex with me that night. I asked again if she wanted sex with ME, or if she just wanted sex for the sake of sex. She admitted she wanted it with me, that she missed my touch. We didn't. We attempted, but she was too sore in that area, probably from too much activity in the last few days. She admitted to another 3 times with JO (twice the night before, once in the morning) - which was a huge turn-off and ruined the mood for me.

We continue talking, and I tell her how I feel about her two personalities - there's the one of her that I've known for the last 3 years, the one I've been together with for the last year, and the one I fell in love with. Then there's this other personality that sprung out of nowhere in the last month who I didn't feel like I knew at all, one with a significantly lessened sense of morality and didn't seem to care about the consequences of her actions. I also finally told her that I felt like she didn't care about me anymore, that she was acting without regard for how it made me feel. I know it was a risky move, and I'm still not sure of the outcome, but she started crying and told me that she did still care.

Somewhere in that conversation (I can't recall the order), she said that her and JO simply had great sexual chemistry and nothing more. I told her that the great sexual chemistry was likely just because it was new, it was still a little "taboo", and that it was only so great because it was forbidden when it started and that excitement was still there. She didn't really respond to that, which from her tells me that deep down she knows I'm right.

After the conversation, I told her I was going to go sleep on the couch. She told me I didn't have to, that the couch was uncomfortable and there was no reason I couldn't stay in bed. I told her I didn't want to lay with her unless I was wanted - that she wanted ME, and not just the company. I started to leave, and she turned around teary-eyed and got somewhat defensive, saying "I said you could stay. Just... stay in bed with me, okay?" I couldn't help myself, so I did. I knew that was her way of admitting she wanted ME there, but without saying the words. We cuddled for the first time in a long while, even longer than before any of this happened (she has a hard time falling asleep being that close).

We spent the day together yesterday after she got home from work, and although our plans left something to be desired (neither of our fault; we were both expecting more from the activity), we both had a good time. When we're together, I see that first personality - the one I've always known - and nothing of the second.

But then she tells me that after she gets off work today, she was thinking about going over to JO's to see if he's conscious (he has a strange, unpredictable sleeping schedule). But I don't if she actually will, or if she does if she's doing it because I potentially have other plans for the afternoon (still morning right now, not sure what the plans are yet) and doesn't want to be alone.

I can't help but feel that if she could be convinced not to see JO anymore, that we could get back to where we were. We had no signs of trouble before JO entered our lives; it's only when he's around that she enters this new personality. From what I can see, and I'm usually pretty good about reading people (I'm empathic), when we're together, she really is having a good time and she appears happy.

I don't know if this story's addition helps or changes anything anyone has said, but it really helps me to get these things out in the open. Documenting the events is sort of a proof to me that I'm not just dreaming.

Get some counseling to see why you ask for so little from your GF. You deserve to have someone who values you.

I don't care how geeky or socially inept you are, you can find someone who is perfect for you and who will appreciate you. Don't settle for what you have now.

Seriously man, where is your pride? She had SF with OM 3 times in about 12 hours and the only reason you didn't do her too was because she was too sore? You have got to be kidding me. Do you care anything for your own health? Your own self-esteem? For your own good man, you should simply change the locks and throw her [censored] out. She is toxic.

But if you are dead set on trying to save this, I think your situation practically demands an ultimatum. Women respect strength, not weakness and dependency. You are not going to be able to reason with her and convince her not to see JO again. She needs to be knocked off that fence with a 2x4, not patience and tolerance. Let her know the consequence of her continuing to have contact with these other guys is that you are gone. She must choose if you want this limbo to end.

I would tell her that you won't be disrespected by her any longer, and if she isn't going to be your girlfriend and act like your girlfriend, then the two of you will exist as tolerant roommates until she finds her own place. Then go live your life without her. No texting her and no entertaining the idea of SF with her. I think other people have called it the 180 plan.

I know she probably doesn't deserve it, but I'm going to give her until after the new year comes around before I spring her with any ultimatums. I'm going to continue with my implementation of Plan A until then. If she chooses to leave, finding a new place during the holiday season will be difficult and would only prolong the increased awkward arrangement.

Of course, it's much easier to say these words than to take the action.

Dude, you need to get rid of this girl yesterday. You said you don't want to leave her because she does make you happy when she's not screwing JO. I know you might not believe me, but there are girls out there that will make you happy that will only screw you. Seriously, I'm not kidding.

Did it ever occur to you that this girl might be using you because you are successful and willing to put up with her [censored]? She is taking advantage of you because she (rightly) perceives you as week and she can do as she pleases with you and make no commitments. Some girls like that sort of renter/freeloader relationship. You meet some/many of her ENs with minimal responsibility on her part to meet yours. Read Dr. Harley's book, "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders." This woman is a freeloader.

Do you ever want to have children? If so, do not let this woman bear them. First of all, you want someone with some values to teach your children, and I guarantee you this woman will divorce you and seek full custody (which you will allow), so she can get the most spousal and child support she can.

Please, do not have sex with this woman. You are risking your health. You need some counseling because a normal self-respecting person wouldn't think twice about leaving this woman.

Don't walk, RUN away from this woman.

It sounds like she has been rather clear. You are her friend with benefits. The other men she boinks are aquaintences with benefits. She likes you as a friend and roommate. She is not your fiance, you do not have a exclusive relationship with her. She doesn't want to hurt your feelings and likes the fact that you worship the ground she walks on!! Who wouldn't!! But in the end it is what it is......and as they say....There you are!!

Okay Dude, here comes some 2x4's. You have some MAJOR self-esteem issues. When you're rating yourself 6/10 and you give her 8/10 on a bad day, it tells me that you've got someone you think is way out of your league and you should be happy with the scraps that she's throwing to you! Horse Hocky! You have to find some confidence in yourself. You have to find a way to be an extrovert. There are books and article that can help you with that.

If you're not happy with your physical appearance, then make some changes. Find a Gym and lose the weight. Secondly, it's a great way to work off all the frustration you have and not too many girls will think that strong pecks, big biceps and six pack abs is nasty. Get a new hair style (get rid of the excess hair), if you wear glasses, go to contacts. I'm sure you got some buddies that have girlfriends. Steal them for a day and have them shop with you for a new wardrobe. I don't know what it is, but A LOT of girls I've talked to say they love taking guys shopping for clothes. I guess they view us as big Ken dolls!

Find yourself things to do with your time, because it seems to me that a lot of your time is spent tending to her needs. That is pretty evident when you were at the comedy show enjoying yourself and she was by herself. Save some money and go with a friend on a whitewater rafting trip. Or join a Co-ed softball league. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there.

I know, you say you love her, I get it. You love her and she loves walking all over you. She gets her emotional needs and security for you and get her physical needs take care of somewhere else. She is cakeeating. THIS IS NOT FAIR TO YOU! Also, she putting your health at risk. Stop sleeping with her and go get a check up.
Make these changes with yourself and you'll see that a lot of woman are receptive to confident men that have a carrer, takes care of themselves, is a sharp dresser, is in good shape and has a heart of gold. Rather than what you "roomate" find with OJ. I guy that drinks way to much, smokes, does drugs and shares her with others. Women correct me if I'm wrong!
Bottom line? In my opinion? You can do better. You deserve better!

Best of luck to you with that plan.

Enjoy the sweet suffering as your heart gets stomped on over and over because your ignoring our advice. Alot of us are telling you to kick her to the curb.

Why would she want to change...

Why give up JO if hes a awesome stuf in bed and all you do is just wring your hands?

Your enabling her behavior.

Stop giving the fat kid cake and then complaining the fridge is empty.

Nothing is going to change in your favor during that time. It simply won't happen. She is not going to say "I get to do what I want, and he jumps when I call. I've got to put an end to this!" All thats going to happen is a) nothing or b) she'll make your break-up official because she has no more respect for you.

The impetus to change has to come from you. I think the holidays is the perfect time to do it actually. Show her the consequences of her actions now and she gets to experience the holidays with drug addicts and boozers, rather than with the guy that cares about her.

But if you are dead set on letting her emotionally eviscerate you for another 4 weeks, then at least don't sleep with her. For your own health, deny her that need. You stated that she regained consciousness once with multiple guys around her that were touching her. I would bet good money that she has had multiple partners in one night, or even in succession, and that sort of sex is rarely protected. Get yourself tested and then deny any SF advances she may make. Be brutally honest if she asks why. You don't want a case of herpes do you? You wouldn't be the first one to contract a disease in this manner.

I am, of course, in agreement with every other poster here. She failed the test. Boot her and move on. There are plenty of good women out there.

I know I have low self-esteem. It's something I've always had for many reasons, and as soon as it starts getting higher, something like this happens to shatter it all over again. I've come to accept my limitations a long time ago. I'm predisposed to have a "gut" - it's just the way all the males in my family are. I've worked to keep mine to a minimum, but I'll never have the stereotypical muscular body type.



I wish it were so easy. I know that many of you in here have gone through something similar, and I'm sure you understand that actions are harder than words. Deep down, I know what must be done, but I can't bring myself to do it.

I'm not ignoring the advice you're all giving me, I'm just reluctant to accept it as the only solution.


I hadn't really thought of it like that... but yeah, I guess that's how she must see it.

My mom knows about everything (her and I are really open), and yet through all of this, she says it's still okay for her to join us for Christmas if I'm okay with it. I can see arguments in either direction: she either 1) spends the holiday alone (even her boozer friends have families, and JO's reportedly a mama's boy) and *maybe* comes to a realization, or 2) she spends it with my family, who have always liked her since they first met her, and are just as shocked as I am about everything, and maybe comes to a realization there too. She won't be spending it with her family; even if she got along with them, they're Jehovah's Witnesses and don't celebrate the holidays.


I don't think she's had multiple partners in one night or in succession. I know she didn't that night, because she would have confessed as much to the other guy she was telling about it and she explicitly said the only one she slept with was JO. She's always been a strong proponent of condoms, so I believe her when she says she's used one every time. Again though, I know that there are some diseases not fully preventable even by condoms, such as herpes.

Wouldn't rejecting SF have a negative effect though? I mean, we've already had relations after everything, and unless she gets passed around more (and I have no reason to suspect that's the case - yet), anything she may have contracted is probably already passed on to me. Denying SF would create a huge void in her needs since it's such a big thing to her, which would in turn drive her even further into JO's (or, more importantly, a new guy's) bed.

==

She has today and tomorrow off from work. I expected she was going to go over to JO's last night, but she didn't. She apparently stopped by in the afternoon on the way home from work to see when he was off work (again, there are no phones in that residence) and if he wanted to hang out later that night, but he wasn't at home and nobody knew when he'd be back. I'll be honest, I'm not exactly expecting her to be home when I get off work today. I'd be surprised. I suspect she'll go over to JO's today and probably not come home until the following night. If that's the case, then I know my work the last several days (since Thursday) has been for naught and I'll have to push up the "big talk".

I feel like I've made some headway, but I'm probably just hopelessly optimistic. We've spent every day together since Thursday with the exception of the comedy show on Friday. She cooked dinner for us last night, which is a rare occurrence since we both usually decide either on something easy or some form of takeout. Over the weekend, I've suspected that her realization on Friday might have had an impact, but then there is the occasional sign in her actions that say I might be looking too much into it. Last night, after we finally settled down at home, she said she had a feeling of cabin fever and wanted to go out and do something. I offered several ideas, and they were all shot down. She said that she'd spent the last several days with me without really seeing anyone else, and although she enjoyed my company and assured me I was GOOD company, she just wanted DIFFERENT company for a little bit. That was hard to hear. It's true that her and I spent a lot more time together these last few days than we really ever have before, and it's only been made possible because she switched to day shifts instead of evening shifts, so we actually have the night to share with each other whereas we didn't before.

I guess we'll see what her actions tonight are. They'll ultimately determine where we go from here. To say I'm nervous is a large understatement.

NO.
Something like this doesn't "happen". You allow it to happen by not setting boundaries. You don't draw a line in the sand that says "I deserve respect." When you get walked on, you lie down and take it. You SET YOURSELF UP for these things. They don't "happen".

Then, when something like this "happens" YOU LET IT shatter your self esteem all over again, by not taking action. By telling yourself you deserve it, or by wondering what it is about you that makes people walk all over you.

IT. IS. YOU.

The good news is that because you are doing this to yourself, it is 100% within your power to change it.

The only one going down a self-destructive path is YOU! Dump this piece of trash already. That is what she is. I don't care if you have self-esteem issues. Listen, just because you carry a little extra weight doesn't mean you should put up with a cheating woman. Haven't you seen ugly guys with hot wives? Jesus, where you rank on a scale of 1-10 has no bearing on whether or not you should dump this ho who is banging multiple guys while living with you and using you for "cheap rent" (aka banging you). Get this horrible woman out of your house.

And no, just because you banged her after the other guy, doesn't mean that you won't get infected later. Herpes is usually only passed when it flares up.

I just purchased Fall in Love, Stay in Love; His Needs, Her Needs; and Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders from Amazon. The first two should be here on the 11th and the other one came from another seller so that's unpredictable. I'm hoping to go through these books and get to know myself a little bit more. I've already learned quite a bit from the articles on the site and lurking through some threads on here.

Do I make any effort to tell her about any of this? Do I leave the books "around" for her to browse (she's an avid reader), hoping it might trigger something?

It doesn't matter because when you read those books, you'll realize that she is not a suitable partner.

Hopefully you'll come around before the situation gets too much worse. But please realize that being strong, standing up for yourself, and setting boundaries does not mean you are walking away or pushing her away. It is actually the best chance you have of achieving the type of relationship you want.




Look at it this way. Didn't you say that she woke up and JO was trying to have sex with her while 2-3 other guys were there looking to perform various actions? It is perfectly reasonable to assume she has passed out drunk before and they have tried group activities with her before. She can't confess what she didn't wake up for. It may be a stretch, but why take the risk? Unless you enjoy being sloppy seconds, what about her current activities appeals to you? Were I in your shoes, I would literally find her disgusting at this point, no matter how hot she is.
Regarding condoms, you need to read more on these forums. People in affairs do stupid things all the time. There is a whole forum dedicated to affairs that resulted in pregnancy. Believing that she is drinking, engaging in somewhat promiscuous activities, yet is being careful about it is just not rational. Take your own health into consideration here. Why are you risking it? Do not have sex with her again until she is firmly committed to you and has gotten a full battery of STD tests.



This is enabling. You would be a fool to risk your health in a vain attempt to appease her. Instead of these questions, you need to find an answer to why you value yourself so little as to consider being one of multiple guys she routinely sleeps with.

Okay Dude, Here is the reality of your situation, YOU'RE BEING PLAYED!!! You need to have a talk with her and lay the cards on the table. Either you're gonna work on this relationship or not. You're accepting her behavior and enabling her with your unwillingness to stand up for yourself. You can't be happy with your current situation or you wouldn't be here talking to us. You've been given some good advice here. Advice from people that have or are trying to save marriages. People that have been married for years and have children. They been around the block. Perphaps, it may not be what you wanted to hear, but it's been put out there for you.

Here a little ego stroke. You have a lot more going for you than you think you do. You set goals for yourself. You've completed a degree. Therefore, you don't have a job you have a carrer. You can be resposible and independent and you seem to be kind hearted. This OJ charactor seems immature (if you say he's a mama's boy, I venture to say he lives with his mother, tell me I'm wrong!) he drinks, smokes and does drugs and no income to speak of. And he has no idea how to treat a woman like a lady. Ask her that, would she like to be treated as a lady or continue to be treated like a HO!

Lay it out on the line, him or you. No "I don't know's" or "i can't choose" then you make the choice really easy for her and kick her to the curb. No, lets just be friends or any of that stuff. If she want to continue down that destructive path let her. You don't have to follow. Some of those qualities I told you at that you have, a lot of women would kill to have a guy like that.

By the way, the males in my family are predisposed to be heavy. At my heaviest I was at 223. I found the inside of Gym and now I'm 6'0" and 186 lbs. Regular exercise and most important, eating right; the gut DOES go away!

MOVE ON ALREADY! Granted its not easy but you have you're whole life in front of you! Okay you'll be miserable for a few months....whats that out of the rest of your life???

You really want a woman like this to be the mother of your children. Please say NO or I'll have to start hoping you never have any!

I wanted to address this statement. You seem to think you have made some headway lately. Let me be the 50th to tell you that you absolutely have not. Your wife is sitting on the fence, as she enjoys dangerous and promiscuous behavior with JO and friends, and enjoys safety and stability with you. Occasionally, she swings a little bit further towards you, and occasionally, she swings a little bit more towards JO. It is ridiculous to use those peak moments to rationalize headway, when the overall situation has not changed at all. Its the equivalent of using statistical anomalies to intentionally distort data to support a desired conclusion.

Also, you need to consider something else. HOW she comes back to the relationship matters as well. If you do not hold her responsible for her actions and continue to Plan A her, waiting for her to choose you over JO, you are setting yourself up for repeated cheating. She will come back to the relationship thinking that she did the right thing in exploring her options and she was able to successfully come to the right decision...you. The fact that you waited and accepted her back will be used as a justification for the acceptibility of her behavior. And next time she has a "crisis", she will resort to this same pattern of behavior.

It is wayward thinking and needs to be addressed and stamped out. You have to make her re-earn you as a boyfriend and she has to accept how absolutely F-ed up her actions have been. You are standing in the way of her going through that process. If she ever does want to be exclusive with you again, she will not have the tools to protect your relationship.

At this point, I feel obligated to reaffirm my position that she is trash and you should kick her to the curb permanently and with a quickness.

Update on the events of the past two days before I respond to other people's posts.

She surprisingly stayed home the last two nights, though I know she wanted to go over to JO's and "unwind" (a.k.a., drink herself to oblivion) from the last several stressful days at work (she's definitely been more stressed since she switched shifts - morning shift is much more hectic than evenings where she works). I got rid of all my alcohol a few weeks ago save for a single bottle of pinot grigio wine I use occasionally for cooking, but I offered her a glass of wine all the same. She declined, saying she didn't really like the wine by itself, and it was warm anyway, and there were too few people. I agree with her on the last point - we've both always felt that drinking with only one or two people feels a little more "alcoholic" than drinking in a larger group.

She actually cooked dinner for us two nights ago, and she brought home dinner last night. Both were surprising, since I've traditionally been the party responsible for dinner.

I know that the only reason she didn't go to JO's was because he was busy. Nobody knew when he would be home the first night, but she caught him yesterday afternoon before he went to work. He was working late and is working again this morning, and told her he just wanted to go straight to bed after work and not hang out.

When she arrived there yesterday, apparently he was still napping before getting ready for work, and she crawled into bed to "hang out" for a bit, and they apparently both fell back to sleep. He woke up and decided he wanted a quickie before work, to which she obliged (and informed me later - I'll point it out below). She said it was actually rather surprising that he wanted a quickie, because apparently his sex drive toward her has decreased significantly as time goes on.

I figure he's actually getting tired of her, because she's not a challenge to him anymore. He's conquered that mountain. I've suspected as much this last week because when she tells me about when she goes over there, he doesn't seem to enthusiastic about her presence (she's making all the effort), which is surprising to me because I know that the first several weeks her and I were first together I was insatiable. Even a year later (which isn't long in the grand scheme of things, I know), I don't find her any less physically attractive (actually, just the opposite) and I'm definitely not "used to her" or "getting bored" with her. There are obviously negative emotional boundaries as a result of everything that's happened which disgust me when I think about them, but on a raw, physical level my interest has only grown, not waned. Remove the emotional baggage from this whole ordeal, and my interest on that level has only grown too.


I did some more lurking on other threads yesterday, and I've realized I'm not so much enacting "Plan A" as I am "Plan Doormat". I'm offering all the carrot parts but not the stick. It's time for the stick.


At least from the details she gave me, JO wasn't trying to have sex with her so much as he was "petting". What you've said IS indeed a stretch, but I see your point. I trust she's been fully open about everything thus far (why hold back now when I already have so many details?), but if there was a moment where she was blacked out, you're right; nobody can guarantee what did or didn't happen there except for the other guys.


I guess I should go back to the old-fashioned way of SF. She was dressed in a way yesterday that made her virtually irresistible to me (and she knows it), and I succumbed. Afterward, I felt really dirty, because she confessed to having SF with JO earlier that day (see above). Stupid hormones. In a somewhat surprising turn of events though, after we were finished she made a comment that she felt a little whorish, but "it was fleeting". It progressed to "feeling promiscuous" and "made [her] feel hot and desired".

I need to work on my willpower. I need to stop contributing to and enabling that behavior.


I've always been notoriously bad at confrontational talks. I play what I want to say through in my head several times, but when the time actually comes, I forget most of it, say things in ways I didn't intend to, and just generally get flustered. My point eventually comes across most of the time I think, but I'm far from efficient at it. What sort of things should I absolutely say? What should I avoid and keep to myself? Where is the boundary between the productive talk and LBs?

I appreciate you all sticking with this thread throughout my stubbornness. I know that if roles were reversed, I'd be giving the same advice you all are. I can be quite hypocritical in that I rarely follow my own advice. It's ironic, actually; I was helping a friend through a very similar issue two years ago and said many of the same things you all are, and she was saying many of the things I am. I didn't understand how she could possibly still feel that way toward him, but now I do. It really is true that you can never be sure of how you'll react to something until it happens, no matter what strong convictions you might have toward how you THINK you'll react.