This is a debatable point, but certainly not an unreasonable one. If you think this is the case, then I am more than willing to listen to your arguments as to why it is so. And, in most cases, I would probably be inclined to agree with you.

In this case, I think otherwise, but I'll listen with an open mind.

I give BHHFSGuy the green light to date once he is finally divorced. He's waited long enough. If he waits any longer, they might name a movie after him.

This is where I disagree. My healing began after I filed for divorce nearly a year ago. It has continued all year long.

I speak in general terms. Mainly for these posts are not just read by the old, but the new. Seeing posts that appear to make it alright to date before a divorce are not ok.

BHHFS if he feels he is healing then he is. The divorce has to final for the healing to get completed. It's as if a love one is terminally ill. Everyone knows it's going to happen soon. It doesn't hit you any less, and you will not be able to grieve the loss until they are gone.

I think that you maybe confusing with needing two years to recover a marriage with needing one year after a long term relationship/marriage to grieve it's loss. Maybe we are not reading the same MB forum. Dr's Phil, Drew, Laura, Joy, magazine article's all have stated one year needed to grieve.

Today I read a post on MB where the couple have been legally separated, property divided, custody done, for three years. This couple just decided to discuss recovery.

One can never ignore certain generalizations.

Never say never.

It does not matter to me if BHHFS hates his WW, feels nothing for her, or any thing in between.

It does not matter to me if BHHFS wants to divorce or recover. Or if changes he mind on this any number of times.

What does matter is that one should not date until the divorce is final. No one knows what tomorrow brings.

Cuthbert, did you know on September 10, 2001 what was going to happen on September 11, 2001?

Healing, I will concede only to make those happy may start before the divorce in some cases. Though the healing can never be done until the divorce is final and the time needed to heal has elapsed.

Look, no-one but you seems to think I ever advocated dating before the divorce was final.

I never said so. I said exactly the opposite in my original post. I have since restated that twice. I do not believe in dating before the divorce is final, and I have argued against it before, both on this board and in emails to friends.

I don't know why you seem to think I did.

Odd discussion.

Meanwhile, BHHFSGuy's STBXW is... ...who knows where?

He may simply never hear from her again.

I hope the DV happens by default at some point, in that case.

-ol' 2long

"I don't know why you seem to think I did."

Here's why.

"I understand you don't want to move on and start dating or anything until your marriage is legally dissolved. Am I correct?"

Why would you make such a statement?

It can be taken as you have no position on dating before divorce, or you are appearing neutral to draw BHHSF out to see what he wants to do about dating before divorce. Then the "am I correct" qualifier is the way a person normally starts off when they have a view point they want you to agree to that is different with the position they hold. Meaning it appeared that you could be pro dating before divorce.

I did not say you are, but you have created the possibility with your choice of words.

" Obviously not or I would've perished 9+ years ago. But I don't know if that qualifies as a spell."

I am not going to research BHHFS's thread but take his response to mean that he has no desire to date before the divorce. So if he has not stated a desire to date before why did you bring up the subject.

It creates the appearance that you are ready to support him to date.

"You know that they recommend here not to get involved with anyone until some time has passed after the divorce, to give yourself a chance to heal. You've not had any contact with your wife since she moved away, so essentially your marriage has been over since then."

Again CC, your words convey that it's not right to date when still married, though you then give him a back door to consider dating by telling him that BHHFS is not divorced, but he has spent more than enough time to heal, essentially his marriage is over.

"Perhaps one way to look at this prolonged divorce process is that by the time it is over, you'll have had enough time pass to be ready to move on. Does that make any sense?"

These words, from a person that said it takes two years to heal after the divorce, that he will be ready to move on right after the divorce.

Uh, maybe because I wanted to be sure that we were on the same page on this. There are people here at MB who do think it is OK for a BS to date before the divorce is final if they have given up on the marriage. MEDC is one proponant of this point of view.

I phrased this the way I did to make sure that I was right about BHHFSGuys starting assumptions. I did not want to assume anything, because you know what happens when you assume. If he had replied that yes, he does want to date before the divorce is final, I would have then argued against doing so.


Funny that you are the only person who seems to think so.

The "am I correct" qualifier is what I use when setting down the default assumptions for the conversation, when I am going from memory.


It might actually make sense if you did research his thread. I was not writing to a general audience about general principles. That's what the Basic Concepts are for. I was speaking specifically to BHHFSGuy about his specific situation, as someone who has been following his story almost from the time he first arrived here.


BHHFSGuy and I have been discoursing on his situation on this message board for a long time, possible a year or more. He is not a constant presence on the board, nor am I. When I posted this, he had not updated his thread for over a month. I believe that dating HAS come up in his thread before, and, again, I wanted to make sure that we were on the same page regarding dating before the divorce.

If BHHFSGuy had replied that yes, he wants to date before the divorce is final, than I would have written a different post to advocate against doing so, and I would have written the post in a way that I would hope would reach him and persuade him of the wisdom of waiting.

Anyway, if you were familiar with his story, you would understand what he meant by perishing nine years ago, and a "dry spell".


I'm sorry, I cannot control what inferences you might take from what I've written, except insofar as I am clear in my own writing. I believe my meaning was clear. Jim and BHHFSGuy both appear to have clearly understood my meaning.


My point was... that since he hasn't seen hide nor hair of his WW for the past year+, and since he is okay with that and eager for the process to proceed expeditiously, and since he seemed to be down in the dumps about how long the divorce process is taking, and since I believe he is eager to get back into living his life rather than simply waiting around for a disinterested WW to get around to cooperating - because of all that, I phrased my proposition the way I did. Which was essentially "look at the bright side... you can probably start dating as soon as or shortly after the divorce is final."


I have no idea how long it takes to heal after the divorce. It is advocated here at MB that one should wait for two years after the divorce is final before dating. I don't necessarily agree or disagree, not having been in that position myself, but it seems sensible to me that if by the time the divorce is final he hasn't seen or had any contact with his wife for over 2 years... than he will probably be ready to move on.

I hope this makes things clearer.

Then you obviously know little->nothing about the situation, which makes your advice far less meaningful. It also makes your assumptions far less accurate, and what you've read into CC's posts is simply not there.

First of all, I doubt any of us on an anonymous BB are qualified to determine whether BHHFSGuy has healed or to what extent. If he says he is, then why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Only he and his therapist knows what's going on in real life.

Secondly, I disagree with this:


Where I live, many people never get divorced. A divorce certificate is only needed to get remarried - all of the other stuff (custody, marital assets, child support, spousal support etc.) is settled in the separation. It is the legally binding document over which people go to court over. The divorce is nothing. It is obtained by filling out a form online, sending it into the court with a check and then waiting for the courts to have time to bother with it. It can be obtained before, after or concurrently with separation but it doesn't mean a thing except to allow you to remarry. Many non-divorced ex-couples live in legally separated status for decades until they die. Many go on to other successful relationship but just don't get married. To say they can't finished healing is crazy.

I agree that time is required to heal. That time varies from person to person and situation to situation. The various rules of thumb - one year, two years or 1 year for every 5 years marriage - they're guidelines. Some people never get over it - even after divorce. Some people get over it right away. The best you can do is figure out what's right for you and try to stick to it. If that means waiting for the anniversary of your divorce - then wait. If you feel you have healed before this, then why not? We're talking about dating here - not jumping into another marriage or even long term relationship. In fact, you can start with very casual dating like meeting for coffee - you don't have to jump into a full-blown romantic, starry-eyed passion filled soiree.

I agree with TheRoad about the actual divorce needing to be grieved and healed from.

BHHFS isn't there yet, hasn't been through that part yet.

The finality, the end of...the period has impact. What, how much, where it hits...conjecture. Another milestone, even though he has lived separately for so long.

He's married.

Then he's not.

Limbo isn't conducive to healing...sure does allow time to learn acceptance, understanding, his part...and I believe he's done the work...so yes, healing has been taking place. Doesn't mean it's finished. It's a process. The actual divorce decree is part of the process...and it's not here yet.

I don't undertand what you found out, BHHFS, about your WW's move and subsequent employment (or nonemployment). Are you suspecting she made it up, the whole thing? That she moved in with an OM, hasn't been employed, or just not since last November?

I'm sorry I don't remember. Need further sharing for this old folk in the peanut gallery, 'k? I didn't question it...and I don't think you did. That sort of deception would be part of the grieving process, imo. Please 'splain, Lucy.

Can I call ya Lucy?

LA

P.S. Had to edit to add my LOL to jmcw's movie title comment...now all I remember as the name of that movie is BHHFSGuy...funny brains. Least mine is.

I still don't get why CC is being barbequed over a slow fire for something he really didn't even say, here.

I also can't understand why this isn't an annulment instead of a DV. Except for the time they were "married", I suppose.

B:

Do you know your STBXWW's whereabouts/have contact information for the lawyer, even?

What are the chances he'll ever/never hear from her again?

-ol' 2long

To me it turned into not right verses a wrong way.

"I'm sorry, I cannot control what inferences you might take from what I've written, except insofar as I am clear in my own writing. I believe my meaning was clear."

Your meaning was clear to you. Do not take this as an attack. How many times does the public complain about politicians hiding behind words. Talking without taking a stand. Making a statement with more back doors built into then the Winchester House.

I consider myself a below average writer. Many a time here on MB I wind up rewriting something because after reading it I felt that it may not be taken for what I meant. I'm going to assume that you are like me and do not do so deliberately. The way a politician or lawyer speaks.

It's not what you said but how you said it. Just like the Second Amendment. The words you chose to use in that post led into more then one interpretation.

And for the new people that are reading your post's. How are they to know you are making an exception to the rule? I have been reading here since 2004. I've said enough.

Heh. I work for a law firm based in Washington, DC. Maybe I've been here a little too long.


I don't know exactly how to answer that. The message board has to be about more than just parroting the Basic Concepts, otherwise why have it in the first place? As I understand it, the purpose of the message board is to help apply the Basic Concepts to the particular situations of the individuals posting, and also to encourage one another in our various, usually traumatic, situations. I was trying to do both in my post to BHHFSGuy - to help apply a general guideline about time after divorce before dating, and to encourage him when he seemed to be down about how long the process was taking.

In any case, when I post, I am generally trying to communicate with the originator of the thread. In many cases, I am trying to advise them or to persuade them. That's always been forefront on my mind. I've not given much thought to new people...

As for the idea that BHHFSGuy will still need to heal after the divorce is finalized... as I said, that is not an unreasonable argument. That's for him to determine, and it helps to hear from all sides on the issue. And I think that you and LovingAnyway are probably right that he will have some grieving to do after the divorce is finalized, despite how he feels now. I don't expect it to take a year, and certainly not two, but that's just my opinion and as I said, I've never been in the situation myself.

STBXWW's career has been the most important thing in her life. I left my job in 1998 and moved 200 miles so we could live together and get married. Four years later we moved 800 miles to California's Central Valley to further her career (she worked in the newspaper industry). A few years after living here, she cheated on me (with one of her coworkers/former manager). In June 2007 I found out that she'd been having an emotional affair with him for at least a year or two. She justified all of her actions and one of her complaints was that I didn't make enough money. Since I had to find work wherever we moved to, my career was somewhat stunted. By the time she had her affair she was making twice as much as me. She often complained that 'I have to pay for everything' and that if she wasn't married to me she wouldn't owe so much in taxes.

After I found out, her OM dumped her and went back to his live-in GF in another city. She was distraught and blamed me for everything. She decided that she needed to get away from me and her workplace (although this was happening even before I found out). I exposed to her family. She then painted me as abusive and they supported her leaving me. So she took the first job offered to her, which was a huge pay cut and located in the remote (and expensive) community of South Lake Tahoe. The company offered to let her stay in their condo indefinitely. Her father came down (first time he'd ever visited) to help her move on October 20, 2007. That was the last day I saw her. I've never been to the condo, don't know where it is and there's no mailing address. She provided me with a P.O. Box #. Since she's not with the company anymore, I'm assuming she will have to move out of the condo, if she hadn't done so already. I think she'd have to move out of South Lake Tahoe altogether, since there are no other newspapers there.

Based on the abruptness of the office manager at her old paper and the fact they don't have a replacement, I assume her leaving was not mutual: either she didn't want to leave or they didn't want her to leave. She always felt that even two years was too short of a time to stay at one job because it would look bad on a resume, so I would assume the former. But I have no official knowledge. My attorney is still waiting for her to provide pay stubs to back up her income claims (that was two months ago).

So imagine the irony if someone who resented 'supporting' me financially ended up requesting spousal support after abandoning me. Oh, and did I mention that she took off with all the savings, etc.?

I fell on the floor and rolled my mule off laughing when I read this:

"Heh. I work for a law firm based in Washington, DC. Maybe I've been here a little too long."

I recongize your screen name, don't remember your story, never knew what you did for a living. Fiction can never top real life.

An annulment (IF it is granted by a judge, which is no certainty) would financially leave me with the majority of the debts and the minority of the assets. A divorce should leave us both with an equal amount (California is a no-fault state). I believe this is why she's dragging things out; she doesn't want to give up anything.

Hello Guy,

I cannot believe it's been over a year since you saw your STBXWW and it was her decision to go yet, she is not trying very hard to get divorced - or not trying at all it seems.

Why? Does she not really want a divorce? Or think that one day when she has got this funk/craziness out of her system she can resume married life with you?

How very, very peculiar.

This is one of the more bizarre situations (along with my own) that I've read about. I have to say that you are a real trooper and you have my utmost respect.

IMO, she's probably back at home with mommy and daddy because she couldn't hack it in the real world without you there to support her emotionally handicapped self.

If not, I would check the mental wards. She used to have an eating disorder, right? She might have relapsed or had a suicide attempt (most women just attempt it, they aren't really serious about going through with it).

Anyway, there has to be some remedy for speeding up the divorce if one person drags their feet or just disappears, right?