Jayne, just wanted to give you a hug. (((Jayne)))

Did you ever read that book, "The Dance of Anger"? It suggests brainstorming with relatives, to hear what they have done in similar situations. Maybe your in laws have some good insight to share with you.

It is discouraging, but you can rise above it. Does it help to know that it's temporary? These are the patterns that Steve is going to give you the insight to replace with new patterns that grow your love together. I'm so excited for you!

I haven't read anything in the MB concepts about timing and savviness. I think these life skills here are ones any of us can get good at. What do you think?

Have you brought this up with him in a less stressful moment? My dh used to do that until I brought it to his attention. I think it had never occured to him, and he was just doing what came natural to him. He is a bit bossy by nature (so am I).

I finally blew my cork with him one day about it. We went to this tiny mall and had two shops to visit. I wanted to go in the news agency first and pick up some paper and then go to the grocery store. DH said "NO,I don't want that in our grocery cart the whole time". Of course by the time we finished grocery shopping, the news agency was closed. GRRRRR.

I told him that he didn't have the right to arbitrarily change plans that we had made together without consulting me first. He looked at me like I'd grown a second head, but he's mostly stuck to it since then.

I wonder if this is a guy thing that men do things the way they want it done, and have a hard time remembering to ask if anyone else has a different idea. I guess it's the difference between leadership and consenus.

Oh, yeah! Whatever my H determines is the right course is the right course. If you disagree, there must be something wrong with you. If you'd just get smarter, you'd see that he is right. Right? That's why he just up and does things without discussion - why should he discuss it, when he knows the right way to handle everything?

I've had better success in dealing with this by appealing to my husband's softer side than by directly butting heads with him. So I generally say "You're doing that bossing me thing again. It really makes me feel small and unimportant when that happens."

That often snaps him out of it. For me its not about who has the best plan of action, but that I be consulted as an equal partner. He mostly gets it I think.

However, this might not work with someone who either really feels he's superior, or on the othe hand who feels insecure but tries to hide it by bossiness.

MIL and FIL came, they oversaw the final carpet installation and the electrician fixing the fridge, they helped put together a lot of furniture, they bought groceries, we took them out to a Thanksgiving dinner in a gorgeous resort restaurant, MIL and I agreed that we could've done better but it was nice to not have to clean up, they left early to see MIL's brother who is in the hospital. Overall, a nice visit, but sad and worried about MIL's brother.

I stayed in bed most of today trying to kick this yucky sinus thing. H had a lot of work to do, so I did some housework and some directing the kids, but these kids *really* need something bigger than cats to play with. I mean they love them and all, but sometimes they love them a bit too rough-and-tumbly. Something, I dunno, but better able to fight back, something to take them outside and get them worn out, sure woulda been wonderful on a day like today when I just wanted to stay in bed. Some friends at work are trying to get me interested in miniature ponies. Maybe that will be more acceptable, but I don't think they'd do well indoors, and outdoors we'd have to build something mountain lion-proof. Besides I think the kids are getting too big for minis. And we don't have room for full-sized.

So I'm watching a bit of tv, and of *course* the movie is "Must Love ____."

No comments necessary.

ETA: I almost forgot to mention, D6a's cat is trying to inaugurate our new carpet with her/his very first hairball. Nice!

(I say her/his not because we don't know her'his gender, we do, she's a she. But D6a wanted a male so we're raising her as a him. )

I don't know if H is in that last category or not. I think your suggestion might very well work. It's worth a try. I'll try to remember it. Thanks!

Ok, having written about resentment and nursing grudges on canwemakeit's thread, I want ppl's advice in my own sitch.

Right now, I'm trying to walk a delicate balance of harboring *just enough resentment*, if that makes sense, so I don't continue the same cycle. What tends to happen is, things build up to a bad climax, then we have several days of resentment, then he does something like talk to me about anything for 15 minutes - but not resolve the problem - and I start thinking everything is wonderful after all, and I start acting like we have the marriage I want (not saying that's the "right" marriage, just what I would like), and so I start acting like it's ok to ask certain things of him, which leads to bad things escalating.

So I'm trying to stop the cycle at the point where I assume we have the marriage I would want, where I would get to talk to him about anything I want, etc.

So, I'm trying to NOT forget the things I don't like about our M. But I don't want to do that to the point of walking around all mad at H. I don't want to make the M worse by having a bad attitude. Does that make sense?

There's probably a healthier way to do this... any suggestions?

Jayne, you have a plan, right, and your actions are the same on good days and bad days. You don't need resentment to reinforce to you that your plan is worth the effort. It maybe was something that you used to need, a coping skill. It served its purpose, and then you moved on.

I loved hearing how you think of three things that you like about your H, and mix it up. Your attitude is your decision, and I love the one you're choosing. I remember asking you a few weeks ago, "Why do you think things are okay? Nothing's okay today!" I was so agitated. Until you clarified, and I understood you. This is the day that the Lord gave us. Perfect in every way. Exactly the day that He planned for us. And you enjoyed it. Focused on the fullness, the abundance, not the lack. I needed to hear that. Thank you, jayne, for sharing your perspective.

Remember that spiral staircase? Where we keep seeing the same posts, again and again. Feels like we're in the same spot. But we're not. You two, working together, you conquered so many things, starting with the budget. The finances. The living in two countries. Then living in one country, on only one income. Now, two incomes, doing your dream jobs. I am so happy to know you, jayne. So inspiring.

I am so glad that Stella's here with you, reminding you that everything is okay, all you need to do is plan for this, too.

If you're still feeling resentment today, maybe there's something that's not in your plan today. You can add it to your plan today. Or discuss it here first. And run it by Steve, too. I can't wait to see the solutions you find!

Thanks for sharing today (((Jayne)))

When i was battling my own LB's, I had to write them all out. i had to write a list of every resentment or reason for resentment I felt toward my husband. This helps me look at them on paper and evaluate each of them.

For example, i just spewed it all out on paper constantly for a few day. You might prefer to put into categories so that you can learn more and observe a pattern or patterns.

Possible categories could be:

1. Things he does that I dont like
2. Things he says that dont make sense to me
3. Things he does not say that make me angry
4. The way he handles______makes me angry
5. I cannot stand the way he ____________
6. I want more __________from him.

Just some ideas, even spilling out all your thoughts on paper will "capture them" and then you can safely and quietly look at them, study them, and bring them to counseling. A great tool, paper is.

Webfootgirl, I'm so glad to see you!!! Long time no see!

Thanks for the replies, I'll have to answer later, gotta take DS6b to the doc, we think he broke a toe when he was playing soccer downstairs (indoors) and kicked a door jamb or whatever you call it. The hole the door goes into.

OK I caught up FINALLY.

I hope your DS6b is OK. It is always scary when little ones get hurt. He won't be too happy if this ends up confining his activities. I can't imagine how much energy 6yr old twins have since I struggle with my 17.5months boys.

one thought that kept popping up as I read through the thread: graduate study and advanced research often shelters a group of nerdy people who are socially inadequate. We are good with theories, readings but not so good at expressing ourselves and associating with other people, including those in our lives. What I see here is a crush of personality difference that results in incompatibility in your M. Your H is fully capable of providing care and protection while not so adequate in vocal communication. He probably would appreciate actions showing care and protections in return more than a sitdown communication on relationship. I very much understand your misery but believe your H in no way intentionally causes any pain for you.

I see a lot of things in your H that I wish my H had: willingness to step in for housework and kids, his devotion to you during your recovery days, attention to details for things that will make your life easier such as getting coffee maker ready even if he does not drink coffee, leaving the outside light on, etc. These are traits in a man I would admire very much. Do you routinely fix his favorite meals? Are there small things that you can do that make his life easier and make him happy? It might be a tunnel through the wall between you two.

Another factor is the 6 years of having twins might just have taken a lot from your personal life. Past 18 months certainly turned our world upside down and we gave up a lot of things we used to do for each other and for ourselves. Maybe the load of life directed a pattern to attend to things while leaving feeling out as sth has to give.

I am quite new to MB and just finished reading HNHN. I recall that the need for conversation is one that can be met outside of marriage. Others (I think Ears in particular) have suggested you do more self-care, hang out with friends that share your values. I would second that and actually am trying to do that more myself. It makes one a happier person herself and will bring more perkiness into life where state of conflict is a constant theme. It also easies the pressure of requiring conversation from H.

There is a saying in Chinese that it is easier to move a mountain than changing a person's personality. Honestly and in a funny way, I see myself a lot in your description of your H and I cause similar frustration in my H. Dr. Harley said sth about certain things can't be changed but good habits can be cultivated. This applies to both sides in the M.

You two are finally living in the same house, working in the same state/country. You both have been through a lot to come this far. yes your H can be indecisive, not follow throught at times, parent in ways you may not agree at times. However, there are plenty in him that you love and I truly believe there are lots that he loves in you.

Hereby the thoughts, after reading 124 pages.

I am gonna get some sleep. Night night.

edited: I changed my display name from Trust_search to Echoecho.

Hi Echoecho!

Wow I'm impressed that you read the entire thread so soon, and that you gave such a nice concise summary. I think you are spot on.

Yes I am grateful, and should be even more appreciative, for the wonderful things my H does do. In a lot of ways I'm really blessed. Really, the Conversation EN, and it's relatives H&O and lack of IB, are about the only complaint I have. Too bad that's my biggest EN, but I walked into this M with my eyes open. I get really frustrated sometimes and forget to count my blessings, and I need reminders.

And when I show him care in the ways he understands, our life together is sooooo much better, and he even communicates some. Not the deep heart-to-heart talks that make me feel most connected, but I appreciate his efforts. I've started making sure the lights are on for him, and this past weekend I finally finished thoroughly cleaning and moving into the kitchen *my* way, so I feel now like it's mine and I've been shining my sink every night since! Along with doing the dishes and the laundry etc.

There are some things that I make that he really likes. I haven't made them yet here, he's been doing most of the cooking so far, since he bought a new super-dooper gas grill, plus I hadn't finished cleaning the kitchen for me to feel comfortable before. Also, some of his favorite things involve sourdough starters and I'm still trying to bring mine back to life after the move. He loves my bread though, and my cinnamon buns. We also enjoy making sourdough pancakes on weekends, I start the starter the night before and mix it with the other ingredients the next morning, and he does the grilling and flipping. We also make homemade pizza with a sourdough crust together, I do the crust and he does the toppings.

Ok now you're making me hungry!

I have been trying to be more sensitive to his stress from work lately. I think so often before I was just plain self-centered - not trying to be selfish exactly, just not thinking about his needs and his feelings as much as I was thinking about protecting my own rights. I'm glad I'm learning to be better.

Thanks for reading and sharing. I'd reply more but I need to go to bed. Talk to ya later. I'm glad you're here!

Hi Jayne,

this might be a bit out there but it is something I have been wondering.
I have always had the impression that SF isnt big on Jays EN's which is not really in line with what they teach us here for guys.
Once you said you woke him up with SF and he was a very happy hubby that day, make you coffee and stuff (I forget what now)

Would you be willing to try to be more available to him for a week or two as an experiment?

It's not like a command or anything (Go forth and bonk thine husband LOL) just something I was curious about. Egads! I am curious about someone elses love life

Hey all those years of reading research papers pay off as I sped through your thread. LOL

I fell asleep and woke up thinking about your thread. Here are some more thoughts. I am not good at applying MB concepts yet (still learning). So these are just observation and correlation.

I went through 2 years behaving just like your H. I barely talked at all and often went straight to AO when talked to. It was a period of emotional shutdown state and I knew H hated it. For sure I was not happy either but that was the best I could do at the time, and I functioned at my job, at home and towards my twin babies. Is it possible that your husband is in a withdrawal state? you mentioned various times that he really loved his old job. I see some people in research environment are very slow in adapting to transitions. For the period he did not have a job and took on SAHD responsibilities (I highly praise that as he did not sit around just being gloomy, even if he did not search a job as actively as you would like), it must have been very stressful for him, even if you did not talk to him as much. Could he resort to clamming up? This could add to his inert personality. Note I only started to come around when he started giving more DS, being kinder and more patient to the twins. I felt closer to him and started opening up.

We are both a cross cultural marriages. Cutural difference can play a role in communication. There are things that ring a bell as I read your thread. Your H loves expensive groceries. My H often buys expensive cheese, snacks, as they are what he likes back at home. I don't even touch 10% of such things.

This is just an example. Things can be worked out by meeting each other half way. I recall you mention Jay likes to keep outside light on while you are a conservationist. Why not install a motion detector activated lights? It can make both of you happy.

What is his favorite food?
What is his hobby?
Can you take a class at the community center while twins are taking classes on their own? There should be a huge variaty of things their age can do. You two can develop a hobby together (such as digital photography), thus some quality time to meet his EN of RC and your EN of conversation.
make some new friends in town, playmates for your boys and companions for both of you, that will open up conversation as well if you find the right couple.
If you don't have time to make bread, find a local bakery he adores, take a walk together around the bakery area while eating some bread fresh out of the oven. It makes a fabulous routine family event.

Do small things for him, not because you should, not because you expect converstaion in return, but because you love him and you want to. Run an experiment like weekly basis, find out what is the right button that makes BOTH of you comfortable and enjoy each other's company.

Ok I got 4 hours meeting today, got to run.

Been busy? There's some good stuff here folks posted to you when you're ready. I wanted to wait until you were back posting, in case you're sick, but I've felt impatient about this.

I wanted to ask, were you in Withdrawal, didn't think your H was going to meet any needs, then he was nice for 15 minutes, and then you were back in State of Conflict, where you do notice and like when he meets your needs, so you let in some stuff you've been blocking. State of Conflict is where you're also willing to ask for your needs to be met again, right?.

Maybe that is bumping him back into State of Conflict, and y'all start escalating each other again? What do you think?

Noticed something similar in my house, thought I'd get some input. Maybe I'm not totally in withdrawal, but I'm not getting my hopes up, just considering the possibility. And, cat, do you think that's relevant to the weekend paint situation, too?

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. That's what I decided my angst was all about. I was so very hungry for even a little tidbit of EN from him that when he bought the paint I was literally over the moon. Allowed myself to dream that I'd finally gotten the guy who was going to listen to me and care and do for ME; then, poof, gone in a couple hours. It hurts. Would rather have not even had that glimpse.

Hey, hey Jayne,

Havent heard from you in a while...
what going on in your neck o' the woods???

Jayne, oh Jayne...
Where for art thou oh Jayne???

Its been over a week, I am getting withdrawl symptoms

I need some of your late night goofyness.

LOL

I'm here, you really think it's safe for me to late-night post??? Sorta like drinking and posting for me, dontcha think?

Things have been really hectic, so I've been just popping by to read a few posts now and then without logging in. I had a work-related visitor last week too. We're now snowed in, another blizzard. Pray that it continues till Monday morning, so I can get outa a trip I'm supposed to make. H is supposed to go too, and my mom was sposed to come into town tomorrow so she'd be here in case something happened with the kids before we got back. Her flight was postponed until Monday evening due to the blizzard, so I'm really hoping my and H's trip is cancelled too. Besides, I've got a sinking feeling that I may have committed to being in two places at the same time next week. Kinda like, my visitor left on Friday and I was purposefully not reading email while he was here, cus I knew there would be ppl asking me to do things that I didn't have time to do... so after he left, I found out that I was sposed to give a talk... in an hour... a couple states away!!!

I had to send them email saying I hadn't been able to attend due to this visitor, who actually had good news which they should be happy about so in a way I was doing stuff for them even though I wasn't at their meeting.

If everyone can just be still for a week or two I might be able to catch up! LOL

Oops sorry for the self-centered rambling, it's late and I haven't posted in a loong time... how are things with you? I'll go check your thread. I'm wondering if your eldest has smartened up yet.