HI,

I have another post regarding the dirty details of my M but I have been so long winded and conveluted that I just don't feel this question fits there. So, I am starting this new thread for organization

Here is my dilema:

I have a M that involved many pains, as so many here do, and it is posted elsewhere on this site. We are living separated with generous communication and SF. We have issues that seem to surround marrital expectations. Maybe at a point of impass.It may be cultural or assigned "roles" but either way M is not working for us.
However, we get along great as friends/buddies when M isn't involved.

We are contemplating D, but neither of us seems to have the courage to follow thru with it. We have tried the "married" route for over 20 years, by raising children and such, but we have been separated many many times for long periods of time being a military family. I have learned to adjust to my own space from years of having to. Now the kids are gone and I am unhappy living with my H. I moved out, and now I feel much happier. I want contact with him often, daily, I just do not want us to live together. I am more the artistic-(moral)free living type.

He is more traditional. He wants me to be happy with what is "normal". He wants the domestic support and the face to face, but he also wants to come and go for as long as he needs, to be alone. He calls it "me" time and requires about 2-3 hours everyday after work. He can cut it back if I complain about the chaos of his coming and going, but he yearns pretty quickly for his "me" time. He is more independent in nature then he seems to recognize and says he finds it romantic to leave the wife behind yearning for him to return. I tried that, didn't work well. I find it is much harder being the one that is left than the one doing the leaving.

Weekends are usually ok for us to connect.

He had an A last year (ONS and email for 3 months). He said he was looking at his options for another W that would like the traditional lifestyle that he understands. His guilt and faith interfered with continuing on that course.

So now we are in limbo. He has started the HN/HN book by Dr. Harley and is becoming more confused. As through this website I am becoming more defined and aware of my true needs.

OK<<<< Here is what I would like input on...
We want out of limbo. He is in the process of self discovery and IC. He is struggeling with making a decision for himself and his wants. He wants me, but He wants me to want what he wants the way he wants; (it's labeled "normal" and I am supposed to be happy with that life). However, I am loving living alone and talking on the phone, lunch, dinner, movies, and frequent SF with estranged H. I do not have the chaos of his home not home, his need for domestic support and dinner hour, etc..

He wants us to move back in together as soon as possible and recover the marriage. I truly would like us to buy the house next door and he live there. We could spend a lot of time together, visit, meet for dinner, sleep over (Occasionally), enjoy the best part of us. Friends with monogamus benefits. "Me" time all week long and no distrubance for the other person. Choice to be together with want and love and laugh.

This idea is just stunning to him. What would he tell others? Its not right. Flat out its wrong and distructive. Agains Dr. Harley and against nature...you get the idea.

Obviously, I feel great about it but it would have to come with commitment and responsibilty to each other as marriage.

Help me out here. I feel it is a compromise. I feel it saves us from D that we don't want, it lets us love one another freely, and truly it is a life that we know how to do by so many deployments and separations due to his professional career.

I don't know how to fix this one.

Thank you

There are better experts than me here to help, but I just wanted to share that a friend of mine's parents did this. After their kids grew up and left home, they sold the family home and bought two houses next door to each other. They visited, shared meals, even shared a dog (walked it together etc.) and were very happy. The reason this worked for them was due to differences in their lifestyle preferences - he was a pack-rat who thrived in clutter, she was a neat freak etc. After living this way for 15 years or so, they sold their houses and bought one together again. Her health was failing and they wanted to move back in so he could take care of her. She died 2 years ago, in his care. As far as anyone knew, they had a very happy marriage.

I have never heard of any other situation like this, though I have known older couples to have separate bedrooms (my grandparents for example).

Thank you for your response,

I just wish I could figure out a way to communicate the importance to me regarding this issue. I love him and I want him in my life, but the traditional marriage of both in one house and standard domestic support is just not working for me. I tried it for 20 years. I made the best of it. But, it strangles me inside. I need space and I recognize he needs space.

I am not rejecting him. I am trying to find a compromise vrs ultimatum. But when the subject comes up he withdraws after a flat "No, its just not right and I can't do it." type statement.

I can not go backwards and he doesn't want to move sideways (?) to move forward.

What can I say? How can I say? Or, Phrase it in such a way that his rejection alert doesn't trigger and the self protection wall go up? I do not want A in our life either. All should be happy and thriving in a healthy way.

IMO, there is no need for you to do anything. You have protected yourself by moving. He wants his June Cleaver back, his mommy, and it's bugging him. But bottom line is you're not willing to BE June Cleaver, or should I say Stepford Wife. It's selfish of him to expect you to settle for half a life, when he gets the exact life he wants.

Therefore a compromise is in order. I doubt he'll accept your suggestion because his personality is too strongly tied to getting admiration from everyone (else). He could never live with wondering what people are saying about him.

The only other solution I see is him learning what it takes to compromise, maybe through IC. As in, he goes without you for 6 more months and can't stand to not be a married couple, so he hits rock bottom and does some soul searching into what's really important in life (being with you or keeping his me time).

Don't let him tell you he has changed and is ready to be there for you if you would just come back home. It's a lie.

Hey Catperson, Thanks for finding me here

I think he doesn't just want his Stepford Wife, but he has stated directly he wants a "Trophy Wife" and that I could use some improvement in that department...I am very individual in personality and look. Not controversial, just not tract home, if you know my metaphore.

He is high ranking and there are certain standards of expectation for the families of the Military. According to him...I however know many military spouses and we all give the eye roll on this side of our husbands. Such brave Men and such competitive little boys all in one body.

Of course the military family would not be supportive of his indescretions in the past...H seems to forget that sometimes when he is throwing around the rules and honorable conduct lectures...

Anyway, I love free time with him. I know he hates where he is living right now in temporary quarters. I know that he is facing whether or not to retire in 2010, and the D will be a major part of that decision...then add to it his wife says "No, I'd rather you didn't come home. Let's set you up your own digs and play boyfriend/girlfriend."

I could understand his upset better if I wanted him to live blocks/miles away and commute, but I don't. I want him next door. He can see who comes and goes, He'll know when I'm out and about, etc... Does it really look so bad??? Is it truly that socially unacceptable? I think the married get to determine the marriage that works best for them, but he wants uniformity in the mix. I don't want to play hardball...so unnecessary. We are adults. We should be able to fix this...without having As and threats, and pouting, and digging in.

2LHnO, if you were to rate both you and your husband, which category do you think you would be in:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Wow!!! ML

Well, I have been the owner for 20 years. I seem to have adopted the renters (but in a lease right now) perspective in the last 3 years.I'm not looking for other digs, but willing to move on if improvements are not made by the management.

I believe, He would say he is an absentee owner; He likes the appreciation of his investment and the security of ownership for down the road, but he also likes to hire out the work for maintenance because he isn't home very much.

You would think he would wake up during this housing slump and see that he is about to loose his maintenance team and his investment doesn't have the surplus he'd expected.

Friends with exclusive benies....ARRRRGG It just sounds soooo goood!!
Then we could both be owners with out trampeling someone elses garden.

Too many metaphors...But I realized I am only 100% invested if my terms for independent space are met. I really don't think he has ever been an owner...He is too nomatic...and a delagator/overseer.
Wow, ML deep. Now you unravel this...:D

2L, if you decide you don't want the status quo and want to have a romantic relationship with him, I would check out this book:

Fall in Love, Stay in Love by Dr Bill Harley. And if you're really serious, sign up for a Marriage Builders weekend. To my amazement, it REALLY DOES WORK. If you follow the MB plan you can fall in love. I know it works, because we tried it.

I understand you say you want "space" from him, but that is because y'all don't enjoy each other. If you enjoyed the hell out of each other, you would want to be together all the time. And that is what MB can teach you.

Thanks, I know that H has that book. I know because I bought all of them but he intercepted them...

I will ask him if he can hand it to me.

I tell you ML, I don't know if I have the energy anymore.

I was never the type to want to be disengaged. I was "twitter-patted" with him for 15 years. Just in AWE of his magnificence. I didn't recognize that he was too
If something was right, or I was feeling neglected, I rationalized that I must be expecting too much and having a pity party. I denied his insensitivities. I mean, this is the truth, He actually used to say to me "2LHnO, I hope the other wives do not tell there husbands how wonderful you think I am, because it could hurt them and their marriages." Yup, those are his serious words of advice to me. Did he become more affectionate? NO. He left even more ofter for other career pursuits...I was just that wonderful at holding down the whole fort and affections. He never saw me whithering and he never heard my concerns. I received the "If you have needs then you need to be proactive and get them taken care of. They are your responsibiltiy and I won't be around much. Stay Moral and Honorable. You're the example for our girls. See ya in 30 days I volunteered for a training course."

Then one day I woke up. I knew that I was not responsible for the problems in my relationship. I had a right to have my needs met in my own home. I told him that things were about to change. I want to be first in his life. I want no other anything before me and know that I am a jealous wife. Well, so much for bravado.
He said fine, I understand, We'll talk about it when I get home in 8 months. Soon after 9/11 happened and the rest you've heard on the news. He was off all the time, and volunteered for extra time. While he was gone he would call, but forget to ask to speak to his children (for over 8 months straight at a time).
The distance grew more than geographically between us three and him.

Youngest left home in 06 and so did I. Now he wants to move home for good. I don't even know what conditions to put down. I just say "I'd prefer you don't" HE asks what He can do. I just really don't know. I want to date him, I want to play with him, I want SF with him, but I don't want to share my bed or my kitchen, or my bathroom. What do I do about these feelings? and worse yet He thinks he's been a great father and husband, that he has been gone alot but he remembers great times. (because he has no memories of all the times he wasn't with us in the day to day life stuff.) He was off doing his thing with his first family The United States Marine Corps. I don't resent the corps. I resent its position above me in his heart! And the only other competition for H heart is himself. So the three of us, him, the corps and me, have to share time and space. Guess who learned to do with out?

OKay, enough poor me...sorry

Whats a girls to do? I love him. I hate that I love him. I have learned to love me too and now I'm struggeling with selfish demands.

Compromise? OK. Give up my hill?...um..not feelin' it. I fought too hard for this territory.

I don't want to lose me to have him. I can't go backwards. I just can't!

ahhhh, the pitfalls of EXTREME GIVING and SACRIFICE!! And I bet you went along with all this, contributing to the current situation. "Dammit, I gave and gave so I am entitled, BY GOD!!!"

Extreme giving leads to extreme taking. Very dangerous.

Do you see how all that giving without complaint has set you up with great resentment and entitlement?

Y'all both made alot of mistakes, but it doesn't have to be that way going forward. This can change if you make a committment.

Thanks ML,

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is all his fault where we are. I am not claiming victim, I hope. I could have set boundaries and maintained them. I didn't. IN addion I enabled the situation. We were partners in my neglect.

Then, I changed the rules. Threatened years ago that things were gonna be different and I was putting my foot down. And then nothing.

But two years ago I really did change the rules. Shocking to me and Shocking to him. Actually, it blew his mind. I told him that if he left one more time on a voluntary thing, I would be gone when he returned. Mandatory, I accept as part of the job, but while we are in a major M crisis, a volunteer absence would change the landscape. I don't like ultimatums...I feel they are manipulative, but I had really had it. He dared me. He left and I packed up.

ML, That was incredibly hard. I knew that I may never speak to him again unless the Kids were the center of the attention. But, I had to go. It wasn't whining about how much I gave and gave. I gave and gave because I felt it was the right thing to do and definetly followed advice of trusted outsiders. "Let loose your grip and Love him more." Well, it became an expectation and it was at inhuman levels to maintain. I burnt out. He never even noticed. Some grumbling that I was losing my desireability, but other than that...I was on my own.

I decided I was doing more than enough for living with myself and that I had my own levels of expectations for me and one of them was my sanity and health. I let him know. We tried MC but he wouldn't do the work or read the books.

So, he made his choice and I made mine. But, mine was not about manipulation for him to do something. I made no demands about change this or change that. I just said I love you, but I'm out.
I agreed to attempts of MC and IC and move back, against my better judgement, but all of those attempts were short lived.

So, after many temper tantrums by him. YElling at me. Threatning me. PA. Demanding I do this or that, and I do it now! He is still not any further than when I left. Now he is calming down, charming me with words, and wants to move into "my" house. My fortress of solitude where I am happy and safe. I, selfishly want to keep it untainted by expectations and unreasonable demands.

I changed the rules. I know that. He feels it is very unfair and betrayal to our marriage. He wants me to get back in line and let's go back to the old way and he will give me more appreciation. I am not asking for appreciation. I didn't do it for that. I want an engaged partner in life and I want to be seen and heard and respected. I want to feel I am important to him beyond domestic support. So, without pity party, without stamping my feet, I can honestly say I will not go back to the old life.

I do not know how to start a new M with him. It would be great but this time he is marrying a woman, no longer a girl. I think the ball is in his court, but he feels it is in mine. He says he understands, but he is still very distracted with his "me" time and his "duty" call. There still isn't room in his life that I can see for the M I am willing to fight for.

I just don't have another list of needs than the one he has received already and has been explained many many times. What's he able to do? What am I looking for? I am tired. (but when I see him walking up the driveway, I just melt and my heart skips) I do love him. I don't feel loved by him.