What don't you get? I mean her behavior is consistent with a selfish, entitled person. Selfish and entitled people "care" about your feelings right up until it conflicts with what they want to do.

Trying to educate her that this "friend" is destructive to your M isn't going to work, because from her POV, its not destructive at all. Sure, you may have an arguement about it every now and then, but so what. In the end she'll just tell you to back off and you will go back to work trying to be a good husband. I'm not saying this to be harsh, just saying that's how a selfish, entitled person thinks.

I think you are trying to analyze this from the perspective of your value system. Which is probably close to "well, if it bothers my spouse, I won't do it." Across the vast majority of issues, most married people think this way. No need to explain it, justify it, or discuss it. Just if it bothers a spouse, don't do it.

Unfortunately, selfish and entitled people don't have this perspective. If its something they want to do, then no reason, justification, etc. is going to change their mind. Generally speaking the only thing that is going to change their behavior is to have them not want to do it. And usually the only way that happens is consequences that cost them much more than what they get from doing what they want.

In your case, a few arguements isn't enough of a consequence. I'd suggest plan B or plan D.

I think you just about nailed it.

So what happens in this case? i have that type of value/opinion, and she has the selfish one....

I just scheduled anoter counselling seesion for next weekend.
This counsellor says she will (if we want) come at us diretly, no holds barred about current issues.

She even asked me to bring some of the emails between her and OM.....

and as far as what made me categorize them as inapproriate...
terms like
"missing you" "thinking of your smile"
"havent talked to you in 2 days and it feels like weeks"

and the obvious lying, deceipt, him sending perfume, etc...

How about forwarding the email from her with the pictures and his reply to everyone you know. Let them make their own decision of appropriateness.

I would also log into her email and block his address if you haven't already tried it.

If I were you, I would explain your feelings. How much this hurts you. Explain how the past EA hurt you. You stayed because you were promised NC (yes or no). Tell her she is right that you do not have a choice who she is friends with. But you do have a choice of whether or not you stay in the marriage. Not much of a marriage if she is willing to traumatize your feelings over and over and over again.

I remember when my FWH told me that very same thing about him being in contact with his first love. I should mind my own business, I was invading his privacy, I was just insecure, it was no big deal.

My instincts said otherwise.

I snooped in his emails, and one of the ones I saw, he was talking to her about one of their sexual encounters they had as teenagers. He asked if she ever cheated on him, she said no, she asked if he did. He talked about how in love with her he was back then, that she "was it" for him, that there was a certain star he would look at while lying in bed at night and think of her. She said she did the same.

Three years later he had an EA with another woman. They exchanged sexually explicit texts, she sent him a mostly-nude picture of herself. I caught them before it could go further. I had believed my husband up to that point that he would NEVER cheat on me because of his "moral standards."

Don't make the same mistake I did. This isn't innocent like she claims. She's lying to you. She's stomping all over you and you're allowing her to. Do something about it.

You think he should divorce based on that casual email exchange with someone half way around the globe?

I think youve stumbled upon my ongoing dilemna here...

#1 - she had inappropriate email fling with other man, non-sexual, no nude pics etc.. (yet) because i caught it soon

#2 - she wont stop talking to him, hides it, says im insecure, disregards my feelings about it

the dilemna;
Is the relationship worth divorcing? maybe not, but...
Can I live in a relationship where she disregards my feelings out of her own selfishness?

in reality, its not divorcing over talking with a guy /2 way across the world, it would be because she lies, hides it, hurts me, realizes it but wont stop.

we could be talking about a secual affair, or dollar she borrowed from me a year ago...
its about the things that happened after and continue to happen...
lies etc...



i just scheduled another cousnellor for next sat.

talked with W about it just a minute ago, and she seemed reluctant. talked a bit about the reluctance, and she said that if I think the counsellling is going to change who we are it isnt going to work. /sigh

in other words "im selfish and i dont intend to change"

she is scared because she knows the counsellor is going to put her in her place, and that when she bottles up and refuses to change I am "done" anyway

so, she is already thinking she wont do what the counsellor suggests, and is reluctant because she thinks i will be "done" with the marriage if she doesnt.


make sense?

what do I say to her about that?

Affirm her suspicions. Tell her that if she doesn't do what the counselor suggests, you WILL be done with her, because then what you have isn't a marriage.

langaan,

You asked
Goodbye!!!

Is probably the correct answer. She disrepects you, sends sexy pics of herself, knows it hurts you, and she won't stop. She even thinks it might end her marriage, but she won't stop.

So let me think. She is right you cannot control her. She doesn't care if the marriage makes it or not UNLESS it is HER WAY. So explain to me why you think she loves you? Explain to me why you want years more of this? Explain to me where you think this is a marriage where the husband and W have become ONE?

I am very pro-marriage, but I am not pro-abuse or neglect. She knows what she is doing and she knows what she is doing has and is hurting the marriage. Yet, she does it. Why? She doesn't care if the marriage continues or not.

IT will be your call, but she is correct you cannot "make" her stop, you should not even try. Just point out what she has done, what she has sent, what he sent, and tell her that this is not acceptable to you. I would do this in front of the counselor.

By the way, would she want these pictures sent to her family? If not, then I would submit to you they should not have been sent to another man.

God Bless,

JL

I also have to go on record saying I don't think it's a good idea to go to Vegas.

She's already hiding and taking and borrowing money to gamble if I remember correctly. This is like taking a crack addict into a crack house. Yes, there are other things to see in Vegas but I think it's going to be hard for her not to gamble.

I'm also of a mind that she doesn't really deserve a trip right now based on her actions- unless you're in extreme plan A.

I may be completely off base and if so someone can weigh in with a 2 x 4.

I will be able to ensure gambling is not an issue at vegas.

and it is too late to cancel this trip.

we'll see what happens when the counsellor goes "no holds barred" on us.


W is clearly afraid of that and the sonsequences if she doesnt go along with counsellors advice.

what are the consequences?

Well, I said plan B or plan D. But the key point is that he has to ratchet up the consequences. IME, violence, argueing, grumbling, or ingoring it don't really do that. Usually the best you can do is remove yourself from the situation. Thus, plan B or plan D.

I think its a risky proposition to consider a single event, absent the context provided by the preceding series of events. I also think it's risky to consider only the reality of a single event while ignoring the implications of that event.

While at times it is appropriate, IMHO, this is not the case here.

When I talked with W yesterday about the new counsellor, she sounded reluctant.

I forget her exact words, but she caught on to the fact that I felt teh other therapist (self regulation therapy) was going down the wrong road (and she agreed), and she also feels that I am looking for a counsellor who can "change" us.

by that she means someone who will tell her straight out that talking with other man needs to stop. She then said that her reluctance is due to the fact that she doesnt think the counsellor can "change" us (probably meaning herself) and that she thinks I will be "done" if the counsellor cant do it.

So in other words,
wife thinks counsellor is going to tell her she needs to stop talking with other man, and she feels she is not going to want to do that (change), and that I will be "done" if when she doesn't.

fact of the matter is, she is exactly right.


I went on to tell her, that even if the counselling fixed the 2 or 3 major issues (OM, gambling, selfishness), I said I would still want to continue the counselling so we can start working on meeting eachothers needs and such. I then asked her "isnt there anything you feel the counsellor could do or suggest to me that could make you happier?" and ofcourse she said no.

Im not saying theres nothing mroe I can do to help the marriage and help us be happier, but she is definately unclear of what that might entale. Hopefully the counsellor could help her in that respect.

She's "clearly afraid" of the consequences IF...

And if what she's afraid of DOESN'T happen, she will continue having her cake and eating it too.

Soooo, you will have to pony up on those "consequences" or you're dead in the water.

Scary, but true. Are you prepared to deliver the consequences? If not, the counsellor's session is a waste of time and money.

Well, part of being in withdrawal is refusing to allow your partner to meet some needs.

When my withdrawn wife was forced in counseling to list needs I could be better at meeting, she came up with "wipe the countertop".


Well, certainly if you could get her to state of intimacy and and caring relationship and in love yada yada, she would not want to have these flirty exchanges that hurt you.

whether they constitute a true "emotional affair" that in and of itself is blocking her recommitting to the marriage, I'm less sure, having read those emails.

IMHO, this is fishing for a promise from you. The promise being "I won't leave even if the MC doesn't work." If you agree to that, then the MC won't do any good.

Its actually not a bad sign that she is concerned about the consequences, its just unfortunate that right now she is choosing to try and "manage" the consequences rather than change her behavior.

Well Saturday we travelled to the nearest city (1.5 hrs) and tried a new counsellor.

She had us write down some issues we wnated to deal with,,, I wrote down
1- her talking with om
2- gambling
3- selfishness

she wrote down
1- communication


When the counsellor reached the OM issue, she asked W "so who is this OM?"
W said "just a friend I met in the dominican on vacation, and have emailed since"

Counsellor: Did you openly share this with your husband?
W: No
Counsellor: Why not?
W: because he is my friend and not really any of his business


after a little more discussion, counsellor saw how defensive she was getting and asked her if she was feeling "attacked"

my wife responded "I dont care"

at that point, cousellor asked me to put this issue in a box and "shelf" it for the time being, but promised it will get dealt with.

for now, counsellor is focusing on my anxiety, and her gambling.

next appointment - 2 weeks.

will add more info later about saturdays session.

overall, my thoughts are that this is a great counsellor, but I forsee a challenge for her in breaking the wall my wife has put up.


ps: contact still happening, last text messages dec 16th.
OM says in text message that he is sending email with photo next day...
W did not receive it though as I have his email blocked.

The sad fact that I can already see developing in my situation is that you won't get around to the issue of the OM/A until WW is satisfied that all your issues are resolved to her satisfaction. WW has all the power, because she doesn't care about your M. If you care about someone and you make that known to them, you're entrusting them with power that they can use for good or evil. Before she'll entrust you w/ that power, you have to convince her you're trustworthy. That means fixing all your own issues first.

Sad, but it's reality (at least for me).

She has stated that she has no pressing concerns with me.

She says the marriage was in a bad place when the stuff with om started 2.5 yrs ago, but she felt now we are in a great place and actually uses that as a defense in her contact with OM.

She feels that since the marriage is going well, she should be able to have "innocent" contact with OM.
or in other words, it was risky behaviour before, but not anymore? meh

I respect your resolve and patience.
I,however would not put up with my wife emailing another man whom she got inappropriate with.
I have zero tolernce for that. if she couldn't stop, I walk. She could have her OM email buddy all she wants then.
Respect goes both ways, there is no way I would be giving respect and then get disrespected.

I do respect your patience though. You are a better man than me.