Okay, here is my situation. My WH was having an affair for 2 years. We have recently began no contact and here is my problem. This back and forth of yes he wants to try to work on things and then no he doesnt. He has not had contact for like 5 days, but I really do get the feeling that he no longer wants anything to do with her. He is living at home, but says he is just here for the kids. Sometimes he will open up and say that he wants to try. I know he has no confidence that it can work, so I believe that is his main problem. Our biggest issue is that most of the time he says he wants to be friends, but does not really think he wants our marriage to work. Therefore, he does not care if he earns my trust back. I think it is just an excuse because he hates be checking up on him. He feels like I am mothering him and can't stand it. So I tell him I need to do it to earn his trust back, but he doesnt really care to get it back right now. We are pretty much in plan A, but he did agree to no contact at this point. He just gets so bitter when I check up on things. I don't want to push him away, so do I just let it go for now and know that as long as he doesn't want me checking on him, then he probably doesn't plan on sticking with the no contact? I know he still has love for me because it comes out here and there. I feel like I am so stuck in the middle, getting somewhere, but not really. We sat down last weekend and made out a plan of what would happen with things if we ended up splitting. At that time, we agreed that we would work on our marriage for 3 months and decide where to go from there. Since that time, he now says he doesn't think he wants to commit to 3 months.

Please any advice would be helpful. Where to go from here??

Thanks all.

ABM,

From what you say I think he's very much still in the fog. I think I've heard it said that a WS is constanly torn between the affair and staying with the marriage. He doesn't want you checking up on him becuase he hasn't commited to the marriage totally and he hasn't given up on the other woman yet either.

It wouldn't surprise me if he is still in contact with the other woman.

Are you sure there's been no contact? If it's only been 5 day's with no contact he's still foggy and in withdrawl.

Have you read Surviving An Affair?

Yes, I have SAA and have read it. However, I have read so much everything is becoming a little blurry.

From what I can tell there has been no contact, but it is hard since the work at the same place. I have asked if the no contact has been hard on him and he says surprisingly no it has not. It's kind of hard to tell, because I really feel his feelings for her have been fading.

Do I just give it more time???

He works at the same place as the other woman?

And you honestly think there's been no contact? Please explain.

If they work together I think you're being naive to think that there's been no contact.

I'm sure that has been some, but he said today on his own that he can't believe he ever saw anything in her.

I am not as concerned with just the OW at this point, but any woman. He has no desire to make things work. We are living in the same house and he wants to be just friends and be civil for the kids. But he is not ready for complete transparancy as he doesn't even care if he earns my trust right now. He sees no future for us, or at least won't admit it because he does not want to give me false hope.

Do I just keep going with plan A as if the A was still happening? Whether it be with the OW or someone else, he wants to be free to see whoever. He doesn't want me trying to control him or check up on him.

Should I just keep trying to meet his EN as he will let me? I have made the mistake of trying to have relationship talks with him, but maybe I should still just be ignoring what he says if he is still in a fog. Should I just keep going with my plan or just let go??? I am so confused. How do you know if your spouse still feels anything for you?? Am I just wasting my time.

Please help. Thanks.

ABM,

I read your story on your original thread. I would suggest keeping everything on that thread so that everyone here can get an idea of what's going on. It's confusing if you have several threads with bits and pieces of your story on each one.

Here's something that might help you in plan A. Mark gave it to me a while back. If I could find the thread I'd bump it up.




Have your read Pepperband's "The carrot and the stick of Plan A"?

Here's a link... it's in the "Just found out" forum.


The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

Hope this helps.

I am so sorry you are here, abm. Your H is using you and has told you he is not interested in working on the marriage. He has been trained to be a CAKE EATER.

The answer has to be Plan B. You have now been dealing with this for 2 years and it is causing harm to your mental health. Dr. H recommends THREE TO FOUR WEEKS of Plan A for women because this kind of abuse is so destructive that women actually have nervous breakdowns.

I would let him know that unless he can commit to a plan of recovery that this will not work. You are not willing to be his flophouse, but are only willing to stay together on the condition he will work on the marriage.

aha! This is why your H is not withdrawing and is not in recovery. As Dr Harley says RECOVERY IS IMPOSSIBLE AS LONG AS CONTACT CONTINUES.

This is exactly what happens when a WS continues contact with his OP. He never withdraws. Your H would not tell you the truth about the affair, abm, but it is neither here nor there. You KNOW they are in contact every day when he goes to work.

Just seeing her at work every day is enough to keep him triggered and keep him perpetually wayward. A drunk cannot recover if he goes to the bar and has a drink every day.

THAT is why your marriage has not recovered.

I see on your other thread that you never exposed to her parents! Can I ask why?

To answer some questions.

It has been a little over 2 months since I have found out about the affair.

They do work in the same building, but usually on different shifts but in seperate areas. Eventually there is a plan for this not to be the case, but the plan is in the works.

I did not expose to her parents or family because they are nonexistant in her life. I exposed to everyone that I thought would have any influence with him.

Just today, I received a text from her saying that she is done with him, but told me she thought he is getting involved with one of my friends. I know for a fact that this is not true, and I think she was just trying to cause trouble. Either that, he just told her that to get her to go away. But either way, it is not true.

I have told him that I don't care to check up on him at this point. I figure that until he wants to work things out and earn my trust, I am just torturing myself. But don't worry, I am not dumb or blind, I know what is there. My honest opinion is that he is done with the OW but he thinks that some "perfect" woman is going to pop into his life so he does not want to commit to making us work.

My other issue I have is employment. I have only worked from home and been a housewife for the last 3 years. He wants me to work full time, but I don't think I can handle all that unless I let everything around our house go. He is never home to help, but says he will if I am working. I would like to find something parttime so I can have some of my own money, but not take so much time away from the kids. However, I have not been able to find anything parttime that pays decent. I have an interview tomorrow for a full time job, but I am not sure I even want it. Anybody have any advise on this???

Here is my gut feeling, the affair is over but he may have left over feelings. He is still deep in a fog and therefore, will not see the possibility of us working things out. Of course knowing him and many waywards, that can change with the wind.

I am thinking that I am almost ready for plan B, but will wait until after the holidays. My problem is that if I do get and take this job, I will actually need him here to get the kids off the bus after school. So, how do you do plan B like that? If I kick him out, he will probably go to his grandmothers place which is 50 miles away.

I am in limbo and looking for some directions. Thanks for all your advise.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

With that being said I would start looking for a full time job so that you can support yourself in the event that you have to go to Plan B or if he just up and leaves.

Continue to Plan A and get ready for Plan B. While you're still in plan A try and meet his EN's. Do you know what his top EN's are? Do your best to meet them and do your best to refrain from love busters.

Getting ready for Plan B means that you're going to need an income and a bank account of your own. You don't want to be looking for a job after he's out of the house. Get prepared.

Hope for the best and plan for the worst.

That's my two cents for what it's worth.

Amazin

His top EN's are Sexual, Physical Attractiveness, Domestic Support, and family commitment. The ones he says i need to improve on are Sexual, PA, and a little better on domestic support. In the last 2 months, he has sometimes let me fill some of those needs. Sexual sometimes, more often than we were before. I have lost 35 pounds and have had more motivation to get things done around the house, but there is still more to be done. However, he now says that we are only just friends coexisting for the kids, so there is no sexual contact at this point.

As far as finances go, we made up an agreement of what would have if we split, we just need to sign it. He wants the kids and I to stay in house, so he has agreed to pay that and a decent amount of child support. Therefore, I would just need to supplement a little income of my own.

I have no help at home and 4 boys and do embroidery work from home, even though it has been here and there lately. That is why I really don't want to take on a fulltime job, I just don't think I can handle it at this point.

I guess I was wondering if he says we are just friends, then do I stop doing things I would normally do for him as his wife or just keep doing it until I go to plan B??

This is the problem, amb. As you can see, your H cannot withdraw this way. Recovery is impossible as long as they work together because he cannot withdraw if he is triggered every day at work. You only have the word of a liar tht they are working on different shifts. Even so, just working together will keep him triggered.


I don't know what that means "non existant in her life?" Can you elaborate? And tell me the relevance? And did her parents tell you this THEMSELVES? Where did you get this information?

abm, did you read my post to you? This is going nowhere until he ends contact with the OW. You have been in Plan A well over 4 weeks and it is time for PLAN B. You are suffering emotionally and physically already. Recovery is impossible as long as he works with the OW.


When he moves out, he will need to continue to pay the bills as he is now. He can't skate out on his obligations to his family. If he won't, then you would probably want to get an attorney and file for legal separation.

But first off, I would expose this affair. Expose to the OW's parents and to their workplace.

amb, don't get a job now! The court will take that into account when figuring alimony/child support. He will have to continue to support your household as usual when you are separated.

Melody, yes I did read your post. Thank you.

I do know for a fact that they do work different shifts. It is a public place and she works there during the day. I have talked the boss there and there is nothing I can do to get her fired. We own a shop inside of this establishment and have a lease signed for another couple months. At that point, is when major changes can be made.

I have been contacted by the OW, as we have talked in the past beleive it or not. He has purposely told her things to upset her and push her away and has told her that he never wants to talk to her again. I know, who knows how much of this is true, but I really do get the feeling the A is over. However, I am not sure how to start the complete withdrawel until the lease is up. It is complicated.

Even though I believe the A is over, I am not sure it has helped since he has mentioned that he wants to be able to date if the opportunity comes along. Is the only way to get him to realize how good he has it is to do Plan B??

As far as her family goes, I have asked around and everyone tells me the same thing, if there is family in her life then nobody knows about them. She is basically alone. Maybe that is why she is contacting me now that she is all upset the they are finished. It's hard to explain without repeating the whole conversation, but I really do think the affair is over.

I am kinda stuck about the job thing. If we sign the agreement ahead of time, will it still matter if I get a job??

Also, this is one of the issues he has, me not working. I know that he would have more respect for me if I had a job. So if I am working on plan A, I should get a job, right???

I don't know of any way to change a person against their will, do you? The point of Plan B is to remove you from his circle of abuse and to let him you are no longer available to be abused. That is all you can do. You can't control him, but you can control YOU. He is an abuser and a cakeeater and you are training him to do so by making yourself available to be abused.

And he just wants you to work so he doesn't have to support you. Don't do it. He can support you until you are divorced, if that happens.

Thanks for all your advice.

I am still a little conflicted on what do to about the work thing.

In some ways I think that I should get a job. I know this is one of the major issues that he has had for a long time, not just now and I would get more respect from him if I was working. It would show him that I am listening to his feelings and making changes. Also, if I move to Plan B, it would sure be nice to have some of my own income.

I understand what Melody is saying about him supporting us while we are still married though too. However, our finances could use some help. I would only take the job if he signed our agreement first so I know he won't change that just because I am working.

I am supposed to have the interview in a couple hours. So if anyone has some further advice, I would appreciate it. Honestly, I have thought about just going to the interview so he can see I am making the effort, but not necessarily taking the job. In fact, I am not sure I am quite qualified for it anyway so it might not be my decision.

Thank you all for your help, it has been wonderful.

Dear abm,

I feel a strong call to jump in when I see a BW trying to hold her marriage together while trying to refute the fact that the affair has not ended.

Everyone here has told you that the affair is continuing, but you do not seem to want to believe them. This is understandable, because you know the man you have been married to for so many years and we have never met him. We are not in a position to listen to his tone of voice and watch his body language, and measure what you see and hear against the man you have lived with, intimately, for years.

However, most people here are experienced posters who have come to realise how predictable affair behaviour is. Countless times, they have seen affairs continue when the affair partners continue to work together after D Day.

In the article Coping with Infidelity: Part 2: How Should Affairs End? Dr Harley writes:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Look at M.S.'s husband. Here he is, thousands of miles from his lover, and yet he still feels compelled to call her. Can you imagine the trouble M.S. would have had separating them if they had not moved? Their move was the best thing that could have happened to their marriage because it not only revealed the affair, but it also set up the conditions that would make ending it possible -- total separation.

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.
Coping with Infidelity

abm, you haven chosen to post on a board set up by Dr Harley. He offers his advice based on his proven success as a clinical psychologist specialising in infidelity recovery. You should read all his advice.

You are not accepting the Harley-based advice on NC that you have been given. You are trying to believe your H, despite knowing that he is capable of, and has grown skilled and comfortable with, perpetuating his lying way of life for two years. However, you do not know your H as you thought, and you cannot read him any more.

I’m not an experience poster, but I have a lot of experience with a continuing affair and with not being able to “read” the truth of my WH's words.

My H first continued his affair for exactly 2 years after D Day 1 in 2003. While, on the home front, telling me that he had never abandoned our marriage and he wanted to make a new start, on the affair front he decided not to tell OW that I had discovered the 2 month long affair and simply continued things with her. She lives abroad (I live in London) and he travelled with his job, usually for 2 nights, twice a month. It was easy for him to remove lipstick, bodily fluids, strands of foreign hair and the guilty look from his face by the time he came home after each trip. I simply had no idea that the affair was continuing, until D Day 2 in 2005. I thought, when he seemed unhappy and argumentative during the second year of “recovery”, that we were simply slipping back into our bad habits and that, as I could only control myself, I would try harder in the marriage.

He continued the physical affair with a series of what he likes to explain as one-off encounters for another 14 months after D day 2. In short, he would panic when he knew I was prepared for divorce, and break up with her. When I calmed down and agreed to try again in the marriage, he would agree to meet her again for sex. She, after D Day 2005, knew that I had found out and was serious about leaving. She had already made plans to take a job over 100 miles away from home, in yet another country so that she could partially leave her marriage. She took the job and put pressure on my H to leave me, so that they could abandon their marriages simultaneously.

In August 2006, after I discovered the MB articles (but not the forums) and read Dr Harley’s stipulations about NC, even if it means a job change or house move, H voluntarily gave up the travel element of his job, and achieved a full internal transfer some months after that. That meant that he could not see OW through work ever again. He told her that he was passing her emails and presents over to me because he did not want any more dishonesty in his marriage, and he wanted me to know about any lingering contact from her.

That was when OW changed tactic. One morning, just after my H told her he was no longer travelling and would never see her again, out of the blue I got an international phone call. This woman, whom I had never seen or spoken to, but whom I been fighting to remove from my marriage, called me at home while I was looking after my kids on summer holiday, to tell me that she did not want to break up my marriage, that she was sorry for all she had done and she loved my H but wanted him to be happy. She realised that he wanted to be with me and my children, so she would no longer contact him.

To reinforce the “wanting him to be happy” part of her message, she told me that her sister had made it fully clear to her that my H had never left on his own, when he had had plenty of time to do so; therefore, whether for me or just for the kids, he did not want to leave, although he clearly wanted his affair; if she provoked me into throwing H out and he went to her he would always resent her for parting him from his wife and/or children and he would never forgive her; thus they would never be happy. This interpretation hurt, OW said, but she realised that her sister was right and that, even if she got him now, she would not have won his heart and their relationship would not be happy.

To reinforce the NC part of her message, she told me that she was fully moving out of her marital home, as she could no longer “live a lie” in a loveless marriage with her H. She had already confessed the affair. She would thence be living full-time in her flat that she already lived on weekdays in while working in another country, so there was no danger that my H would see her when he travelled. She felt so guilty about having pushed me into making him give up his job and she could not live what her interference in our marriage had made him do. She would never be in that country again and so my H need not give up his job. Please don’t make him give up his job; I feel so terrible for forcing this on your family, she said.

I spoke to her very sympathetically, then that evening told my H that if he ever travelled abroad again I would not be there when he got back. He never did. OW changed tactics again with a final suicide goodbye letter and presents to his office. When the suicide threat did not work, she continued to phone his office frequently and ask him to resume the affair until January 2007, when I contacted her H (finally, having discovered the forums and realised what a chump I had been not to have contacted him earlier).

On contacting her H, I discovered that she had never told him of the (by then nearly 4-year) affair. He knew their marital problems were severe but he had never realised that this was the reason.

I realise that the OW in your marriage might not be anything like as unstable as the one in mine, so I might be painting a wildly exaggerated picture of your future if they continue to work in the same place. However, she does not need to be raving mad to have made a phone call to you telling you that the affair is over; she only needs to be a liar and manipulator, willing to have sex with a married man if doing so makes her happy.

Well, she has already been such a person for two years. Do you believe that she would not break up a marriage, that she would have too much conscience to go that far?

You have an accomplished liar and deceiver for a husband who has stated his intention to “date” when he pleases. I don’t see what further clarity you could possible be waiting for.

I feel very sorry for what you are going through. I don't want you to eventually experience the length of contact and gaslighting that I did, so I have posted my history in an attempt to convince you to take decisive action on the basis that the affair is continuing. My heart goes out to you.

I am basing my actions on the fact that the affair is still continuing, but I am just saying that I do think that it is over. But I will continue to act as if it is not and protect myself.

Until or unless he is ready to commit to our marriage, I will base my actions as if the A is still happening.

As far as the NC goes, I know that we need to take extreme measures. However, since he is not commited to making our marriage work yet, those changes have not been made. All I can do is try to push them apart as much as possible and it does seem to be working. Before I put my heart back out there with him, he will have to commit to our marriage and absolutely no contact. However, he is not at that point yet.

Thanks for your advise, I will keep my guard up.