My H sees a counselor on his own. I think it is a good thing, better than asking his single, beer-drinking buddies what he should do. We see my counselor together and sometimes with me alone. If you also want to see the counselor make another appointment for you. You can't make him go with you. Yesterday at our first counseling appt together in a month my H suddenly asked the counselor to leave the room so he could talk to me alone. On another occasion the counselor asked me to leave the room, another time they met alone. There are all sorts of ways to handle counseling. <P>Your H obviously has something he wants to talk about with you not there. That's okay for now. If your H is going to spring something on you, it doesn't matter where he does it, a counseling setting is much better than many others. The first time my H told me he was leaving me, he told me in front of the kids--he had NEVER mentioned moving out before. Horrid!<P>Forget the OW. She's nothing to you. Do not let her existence have such power over you. (Believe me, I'm trying very hard to take my own advice here 3 days after discovering the affair had resumed.)

I agree with almost everything that has been written. But, remember we are just people and are not psychologists and are sharing our angers and sorrows and the things that have worked.<P>I was a housewife for 12 yrs with four small children when the OW came into our marriage, so believe me when I say I can understand why you can't just kick him out. There are things going on in you that are so complex and some people will not understand them. Not even you until you put some time beyond now. But, I think that you must go see a lawyer. You need to protect yourself and any children to be sure that you don't lose everything. You can't stay with him to punish him because you will lose in the long run. I have been married for 27 years and have been to hell and back with my man. I know that you are afraid that if you see an attorney, he will jet and you will end everything while you are feeling lost and crazy. Don't tell him. Remember, this is about your rights. Just get the information. Right now, you are uninformed as to your rights. It would be the best $50. you could spend. I wonder how our spouses respect us when we stay and let them have their cake and eat it too. And, you need to be sure of your suspicions. I read an article tonight written by a PI that said that 90% of the women that come to her with suspicions are correct. So, find out. And encourage him to go to counselling alone. Hell, he could have some really dark thing he needs to work out and that could be your entire problem. or he could be a jerk.<P>Just take care of you. No one else will. And do not beat yourself up if you aren't what he wants now. They use every reason in the book to justify their infidelity. If you want to change for you, do it. But do it for you. Not for him. Been there and done that girlfriend.

Just got back from picking up our daughter from a movie. Listen everyone, I want to thank you all so much for all the advise you are posting here. I will admit to all of you that you are correct in saying that I have taken on the "poor me, why me" attitude. What has changed about me I believe SHA asked? Well, lots of things. I have gained an enormous amount of weight. I try to participate in various plans, but I never see them through all the way. I just quit. I think I wrote before that I just assumed my H would always love me, no matter what. He doesn't buy that I gained weight from the pregancies considering the kids are 16 and 13. I began volunteering at the school, which started to consume all my time. I then neglected him, cooking, housework, etc. So now, even when I'm busting my rear to have things at home be the way they used to be, it does me no good. He doesn't even bother to acknowledge that I've made these changes that he's brought up. He cheated, but I'm doing all the changing and the work. There's not balance here is there? There are more days than not that I look at him and wonder what I'm fighting for. I try to get him to talk about all these feelings I'm having but it never seems to be a good time with him. I won't discuss things with him until the kids are in bed or we are outside alone. And by this time, it's late, and he goes to work very early so that irritates him. <P>I don't have CONCRETE proof that he's still with her, but they work together, he defends her when I mention anything about her, and I just have this gut feeling that he is lying when he says he's not seeing her. I've stopped asking this question lately because I know I'll get the same answer. I really would like to call her myself. But I also may not like the answers that I hear. Maybe she'll just hang up on me. Who knows. This OW is beautiful, has a nice figure (even after her 3 kids - she's a widow) has a great personality, and has a great career. No wonder my H was smitten with her. Quite frankly, I haven't figured out yet what she sees in my H. He's not the most attactive man alive. I never thought I'd have to worry about a pretty woman looking his way. That sounds so awful, but it's true. Okay, I know I'm doing the poor little me thing again.. I'm afraid of being alone guys, really I am. After being with this man for 17 years, how am I going to start over now? It irks me that he's so happy and I'm so miserable.

Tired, I know exactly what you mean about having felt secure prior to the affair. I never thougtht anyone else would be interested in my H either, and he had never shown the slightest inkling of interest in other women -- didn't even check them out in the street like most men do. <P>I guess I was a bit cocky, thinking that he'd gotten the better deal by marrying me and was properly grateful. I couldn't imagine for a minute that he could ever be unfaithful, or even flirt. But all it took was one needy little flatterer on the Internet to play up to him and he was off and away.<P>Like you, some of it was my fault too. I was so obsessed with work and other worries for the year up to his affair that I hardly paid him a minute of attention, and the only time i really did talk to him was when I wanted to complain about something. Even then I didn't listen to his advice -- so off he went to find someone he COULD help. He's back now, and working on our marriage, but man it's hard.<P>Here I go rambling again. I just wanted to say that I relate to how you felt. And things can get better, it just takes a hell of a lot of work. But you already know that <P>Keep it up! And keep your eyes on the prize.<BR><P>------------------<BR>"One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time."<BR>-- Andre Gide

Hi Tired Lady,<BR> I know exactly where you are at....I too was afraid of being alone. I was married for 21 yrs., had 4kids and had not worked for 18yrs..... the security that you feel has been pulled out from you. I will tell you that once I confronted those feelings, thought alot about what I had to offer, I began to feel more in control and better about myself. Do one thing today that will make yourself feel better. Did you ever work? You said you volunteer ...I bet you have skills that are valuable. As one person said , consult with a lawyer without your H knowing, I did.... and once I had information, I felt better.(Take cash so there is no record)....find out your rights ...with 2 kids your H will have to provide child support. Where you are now is a terrible place but if you start taking control you WILL feel better....One good(?)thing that has come out of this whole mess is that I have confronted those insecure feelings and realize that yes, I can be alone and will be OK...start taking care of yourself,Tired Lady......Lu

I agree with all of you who have said that I should go see an attorney. Even if it's just to get information. I know he'll have to pay support and alimony. Just knowing that I'm speaking to a lawyer about a divorce makes me so sick. And scared. And hurt. All those emotions just overwhelm me right now. I want so much to lash out at this ow, blame her for everything wrong with my marriage now, but realistically, it's not all her fault. My H is not the innocent party either. Well, today is Thursday, and let's see if he agrees to go back to counseling or not. <P>Bye the way, yes I used to work at a bank. I worked until the birth of my daughter. But that was 16 years ago and I haven't worked since. I suppose if I have to go back to the workforce, I will do it. Right now I doubt I'd be convincing enough for any employer to hire me.<P>

Please keep your chin up. <P>Remember, I was a housewife with four small children when my H strayed and I was terrified. I went to work for a temp agency. I was not sure what to do. They placed me, the company hired me perm., promoted me to a better position with a lot more money. Then after a year, I went to work for an airline for 2 year, then a bank for four years as a csr, with the last year as an "investment specialist" then to Dean Witter as a stock broker for three years to now where I own my own investment company. And that is over 16 years, so you can do whatever you want. And this entire time I stayed married, caught him with her 2 other times, (talking on the phone), the most recent last summer. And the dye is set. If he ever talks with her again, (she makes all the contacts) I will divorce him, sue her and say F*** you both. <P>I have gone from a terrified person to a competent one, except for being peri menopausal and that is another story. <P>If you gained a lot of weight, then if you want to lose it, get started somehow. Find a buddy who wants to lose too and use each other like AA. Or, try Weight Watchers. I just hate to see you do this for him, but it can be a denominator I guess. I was always thin and mine still did it, so I still believe it is about them. <P>I will say this, I take my share of the responsibility for the things that happened to breakdown our marriage, but I take no responsibility for the way he handled it. does that make sense?<P>Peace<P>ubu

Hi Tired Lady,<BR> Listen to UBU.....you can pull yourself out of this.(By the way, UBU, you are one strong lady, I like your style!!!)....About seeing an attorney, I went and told them upfront I did not want a divorce, I need to know where I stand ,what does a separation agreement mean, etc., etc.....go for information and know all of your options , also , how long does a divorce take ? , how to stall? The attorney could be your best friend.....I felt so much better going even though emotionally I was in so much pain ......it will give you some CONTROL. Lu

TL... I'd say your assumptions he's still involved with her are 99.9% sure to be correct. Two years ago I found love notes in my wife's clothes, confronted her and she denied... I went thru HELL but THOUGHT all was well, she even told me they were just friends. Well here it is two more years down the road and BOOM, she's been with him the WHOLE TIME... so I'm telling you your hubby is most likely with OW too. Question is what do you do. Two years ago I made a feeble effort at Plan A from here and thought things were better... but in my gut I knew it wasn't and I didn't put forth the MAX effort. I'm totally committed to fighting this now, even though it's NOT FAIR ONE BIT that I must do all the sacrificing and 90% of the suffering... W is finally suffering a little now that it's in the open and she's "thinking of leaving" me and the kids... I see her suffering as just one small sign there's a chance for us. I'm completely resigned to the fact that she'll leave, she HAS TO LEARN the hard lesson on her own. All I can do is Love her without exception or expectation as best I can. Others on here have given the GREAT advice to focus on YOU. That is another step I'm taking... I'm in day 4 of this 2nd bout on this affair and I had the strength to go outside and walk this morning... the sunshine alone was great for me. <P>I used this analogy with my W. She's "gambling" using me, the kids and OUR life as the chips against the OM... quite a risk. Betrayers know this somewhere but are so obsessed it makes little or no difference. From my perspective, I'm willing to gamble MY BEST EFFORT for NO LOVE BUSTERS, because the payoff of a better marriage now or in the future is worth it. In the long run, I will be a better man for trying... I'll learn about myself and how to LOVE simply for the sake of Loving and to be honest, that makes me a more "valuable man" to any woman, my wife or GOD forbid someone new down life's road. <P>Gather your strength TL... but only if you LOVE him...<P>TEX

I wanted to let you know I feel for you. I too am very negative at this point in my life......and I use to be the most positive person you'd ever meet. But this affair thing either took my rose colored glasses off, or put sh*t colored ones on. In either even, my negativity stems directly from having everything I thought to be true about my life taken away when my H decided to have his affair. I'm working on rebuilding myself, but it sure is hard, when that negative little voice in your head keeps asking "what's in this for me"<BR>I cannot offer you any additional advise, that the others haven't, except perhaps, to listen to those negatives and try to make them positives. For instance, when that negative little voice says "no wonder he cheated on me I'm too fat (or too skinny, or too independent or too whatever)" turn that into a positive like "I am valuable because.....and insert whatever you like about yourself"<BR>Just my thoughts......

That is an excellent suggestion.<P>I wanted to add one more thing. It is not like I said okay, here I am, left behind with four small children and have never even seen a computer or worked on one. No. I ended up in a psychiatric ward for a while. This change in me was not immediate so I don't want to leave that impression at all. I had absolutely no self esteem when my H cheated. I thought it was all about me. And I was wrong. I went to work because I realized that someone had to feed those kids and no matter what he was saying about "you get the house totally and I will support you and the children" I knew that Miss Thing would work on him and eventually we would be in court and I would not get what he was saying. And, then the work thing just started making me feel better about me. But, even 16 years after the initial affair, it still hurts me and I still feel inferior to her. There was even a point that I felt like I was stealing him from her when he stayed. I knew nothing about withdrawal, only that I had fought for my marriage and won....nothing. for three years, nothing. Them I kicked him out, cut off all contact with him except for pickup times for the kids, and he finally healed. But, I can say for sure that I will and would never ever go through another withdrawal for the OW like that. It was worse than the affair.

UBU: That's what I'm afraid of, I'm afraid of what life will be like if my H ever does come back home. How will i ever get over the feeling that he chose somebody over me even if it was only for awhile. I know that what he is going through is a mid-life crisis. I've done a ton of research on it the past few days and it all really fits. I just don't know how to deal with all of this. I'm really scared of this withdrawl thing.

One good thing that you have that I did not have is this site and the comfort of sharing. In my heart I knew that he was wanting her, but he would deny that. Since I have found this site, the term withdrawal is perfect, but it still stings. At first it is like whew, we are working on this again. But, with my H he was indifferent to me, told me he loved me maybe 4 times in three years and sex was an ordeal. We had it often, but he was the everready power bunny, couldn't get off forever. Sometimes that was good, but not during this period. <P>Use this site and read "After the Affair" and "Surviving Infidelity". I wish I had known of them then, but they probably weren't even written.<P>Good luck honey. Be strong for you. <P>ubu

Dear Tired: At night when you're lying in bed and you have a gazillion things rushing around in your brain, think back to 20 years ago. Before the kids, before things were so unbearable. What were you like then? What was your position on a good life? You were most certainly optimistic, healthy, happy and probably in love. Your husband does not want to communicate and discuss the issues you guys are having. If it makes you scared and sick to seek legal council, don't do it. I realize that it is important to be well informed, but if and when the time comes that he has the balls to actually leave you, at that time, retain the best lawyer his money can buy. Until then, you need to do some real soul searching as to why you have allowed yourself to transform into someone you don't like very much. <P>Indfidelity is a symptom of problems that were deeply rooted in the marriage before he even met this lady - and really, how great can she be? Shes screwing another woman's man. . .she obviously has problems with commitment, which you do not, she has no respect for the marital arrangement, which you do, and clearly she has bad taste in men - your husband was not the man he once was, face it you had him when he was good - now he is pitiful. Consider those things before you whine about your weight and your lack of a gig in the workforce. You are a great mom who has dedicated 16 long hard years to mold your children to be good people. What are you teaching them about taking this from a man? You are showing them to give marriage every ounce of energy to work but you have options and you do not have to let a man (or a woman) treat you with no respect in your own home. Your children will respect you for standing up and taking control of a situation that you feel you have none of. You need to be pro-active; you have told us your story and now all of us on this forum want you to take the next step - let us know when you do that.