That's not changing, Mel. That's managing.
[/quote]

No, I do not manage. I surrendered.

No, I do not manage. I surrendered. [/quote]

Mel, I just wanted to say thank you for being a beacon of light around here, who not only believes Christ's words, but walks the walk.

"Believer, where do you think I would be today if I were met with someone like Aphelion at the door of AA 23 years ago?"

Well, personally, I like Aphelion's stance. He is coming from reality. I would not agree that people NEVER change though.

However, if you had showed up at the door of AA and they told you that you really had no problem and could continue on drinking (well, after you said you were sorry), what would have happened to you?

huh? You just disagreed with Aphelion that people never change and then said "he is coming from reality" and you like it. That doesn't make sense, believer. If someone states something that is UNTRUE, ie: people never change, then it couldn't rationally be said they are "coming from reality," can it?


I probably would have continued drinking, of course. Do you want to explain that question because I am not following your logic. My question to you is how do you think ppl would react if they showed up at AA for help and met someone like Aphelion who told them it ws hopeless, no one ever really changes?

Mel - Let me say first that I admire you for overcoming what you did. And I also admire many of the FWS here. Many people DO change.

But it isn't something that is easy. So I do agree with Aphelion. And I don't believe that people NEVER change. But I do agree that most don't.

It takes a lifelong recovery program.

So for those that are in a lifelong recovery program, I say KUDOS to you.

Higher power, huh? Who in their right mind would bet their future on a relationship with someone who says that? As if it even it means something in the real world.

Sounds like you don’t feel you have to manage or otherwise control your own addiction any more. You are magically cured as soon as you say that, I guess. Not what we learn in Alanon.

I do not believe addicts or adulterers fundamentally change, but I do believe a few can learn to control their cravings, feelings, urges and selfish indulgences. Well a tiny select few who fit the profile I have previously posted, several times, but it keeps getting ignored.

Adulterers do not change. They are who they are.

New BS, especially new BH, would be so much better served if this was thoroughly explained to them right up front.

As it is, all new BS here are pushed into years of continued unrelenting agony so that just one or two percent can later learn to say with a straight face they recovered something that was never worth recovering in the first place.

Then you are disagreeing with Aphelion, believer; maybe you didn't read his post. His point is that people DO NOT CHANGE and he is wrong.

You mean your wife did not change, Aphelion, and I am sorry about that. I am even more sorry that you have volunteered to stay in a marriage with a years long affair because I can see how cynical and bitter it has made you. I fully understand why Dr Harley advocates Plan B if the affair does not end.

I would agree with you that your wife has not changed as her very long term affair probably indicates this is her character, rather than an aberration. Cheating is a way of life for her. And staying with a cheater is a way of life for you.

Believer, here are Aphelions words:


You keep saying you agree with him and then in the next sentence refute his point.

I have a higher power who I call Jesus Christ.

And HE influences my life.

Those that follow HIM will be freed.

Did you read my post, believer?

Yes, I read your post. And I do believe people can change with a lifetime program.

I have little hope for the poster of this thread because his wife will most likely continue on. Sad.................

What did you have in mind?

yall really think serial cheating is like addiction?

i always attributed it to piss poor upbringing

Congrats for your 23yrs of sobriety. But alcoholism is a disease. I don't think you can compare that to a cheater. Lacking morals and boundaries is not a disease

Sorry, but adultery is very much an addiction along the lines of alcohol and drug addiction. Alcoholics are not exactly paragons of virtue and morality. We didn't become alcoholics from singing too loud in church.

I wouldn't know.

[/quote]

Sorry, but adultery is very much an addiction along the lines of alcohol and drug addiction. Alcoholics are not exactly paragons of virtue and morality. We didn't become alcoholics from singing too loud in church. [/quote]

Adultery is not a disease, similarities to addiction, maybe but not a disease.

I don't believe anyone ever said it was a "disease," did they?

p.s. some would even argue that alcoholism is not a disease

Vladie, the reason I believe Aphelion brought up alcoholism/addicts is because it is a character defect like adultery. That is the point of the analogy, not whether or not they are "diseases" or necessarily addictions. They are all terrible character shortcomings and the point of discussion is whether or not people CAN CHANGE.