88, sorry you're going through this. I know how you feel because I am facing the same thing. My WW got herself an apartment and is busy moving all her stuff out and will take our three kids with her as soon as she's done moving her stuff out. She moved out because I refused to allow her to carry on her affair from the comfort of our home via internet chat and phone conversations.

Now she'll be able to carry on her A without my interference. I know her A will die just as nearly all A's die a natural death. Your WW's A will end too.

But you DO have to decide whether you want to try to save your marriage or not.

I personally recommend trying to save your marriage at all costs. If you spend 6 months trying to save your marriage, you'll come out a winner whether your WW comes back or not. Dr Harley says there may be four good reasons to fight for your marriage:

1) You are partly responsible for the affair
2) Your wife has not yet decided to end the marriage
3) You need to know that you have done your best to save your marriage
4) If you follow the MB plan and it fails, you will no longer have any feelings of love for your wife.

Maybe your marriage can be saved! If you quit now, maybe you'll always wonder if there was something more you could have done that would have made the difference. Don't have any regrets.

It won't be easy to follow a plan to try to save your marriage, but I feel that there is no easy way out of this whatever direction you take.

Whatever you decide, no one here will criticize you. I wish you the best!!

Also, IMO, it takes possibly even more courage to try to save your marriage than it does to walk away from it. I think it would be a lot easier for me to walk away from my marriage than to try to fight for it while my WW is in an A.

i can't say i disagree erichh. It is a trying process to try to save it.

i think right now i am trying to trick my mind into thinking i am giving up and that i just dont care what she does. when i try to save it i really do just make things worse because i can't mentally handle it which causes LBs and hurts not helps.

in terms of your post before that one i basically agree 100% with everything you said. those are the same words i tell her. even if she thinks that we are too different and she thinks i will never "get" her - we should fight for the M so even if it fails she/we know we did all we could. both WW and me know the OM deal wont last (not with this one).

While WW is having an A, it is nearly impossible to reason with her. She is not thinking straight. The part about you not ever going to "get" her is fog-babble. Just stick with what we know about waywards and let her words roll off your back.

Avoiding LBs is very hard when this is going on. I've messed up too. Don't be too hard on yourself, she prob deserves what you said to her, but if you want to save your marriage, you have to be disciplined in this area.

One thing that has helped me to avoid LBs is meeting with a marriage counselor. One of the best things that he has taught me is how to react to things she says in a respectful manner. It works like magic and avoids arguments but it has taken me practice and I still goof up now and again. Let me know if you want me to go into more detail about this, and I'll give you a couple of examples.

Just remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint, so take it slow and realize that it ain't over till it's over.

I've been in Plan A for about two months now and I'm close to having to go to Plan B. I've also wanted to change my mind and just divorce and get it over with at times. It's an emotional roller-coaster. Dr. Harley says it's perfectly normal to feel these feelings as a BS.

A few days ago when I wanted to throw in the towel, I read Mortarman's thread and it got me re-motivated again:

Mortarman's husband/wives roles

This guy has some serious patience. His recovery took a couple of years I believe, and his WW left him several times before she came back for good and he says their marriage is better than ever now.

It's success stories like that that give me hope to try to carry on.

t/j to Erich

Erich, I am amazed at how quickly you CAUGHT ON. I can't tell you what a pleasure it is to post to someone who read the book and GETS the big picture. Thanks so much for taking the time to help other posters.

88, do you have any family to spend Christmas with? Parents, sisters or brothers?

I don't think that you will become an alcoholic from a little more than usual drinking but I don't like the thought of you alone at home with beer as only company at Christmas.

If you don't have any relatives that you want to spend Christmas with I suggest that you book a holiday in a warm and nice place or, if you prefer that, in a ski resort. Check out what the travel agencies have to offer, sometimes you can get really good deals when you book the last minute.

I am sorry that you have a lot of stress at work too, that doesen't make you happier. I think that you are still in the initial chaos after D-day so it's hard to give any advice how to feel better. For me it helped to change environment, I took two weeks vacation and went to stay with an old friend.

Actually, I think that you have to recover from the blow of the affair before you make any decisions about anything. I didn't understand plan A when I was in it but I think I do now. It is about working on yourself and that includes taking care of yourself so you can be happy and strong again.

erichh, i gotta admit i tried to read that thread, but I was not inspired. see, religion is not a part of my life (yes, my family celebrated xmas but in a very much American sort of way). i could only make it about half way down the first page. I will have to give it another try later to see what I did not get to too see if there is some relevant inspiration for me.

why_us, for the first year ever the most of my family will not be here. they decided to go to maui this xmas (one of your suggestions). i dropped them at the airport this AM. it's funny, for the last 7 years i have had 4 family xmas's to go to and now I have 0. i am considering going over there (maui) to meet them in a few days, but I am not sure if i want to do that. see below note

Ski area is another option too. I am not too far from Tahoe. But i am not a winter sports kind of guy and my emotional state makes me think i will be in the same frame of mind up there then i am here except i am bleeding off cash to do it.

not trying to sound too depressing or woah is me, but thats sorta my feelings right now.

i have told a decent number of people that we are having problems. Some telling about the A, some just that we are apart now, some just that we are having problems and some i have not told.

I find that for me the closer i am to someone the less i open up. so i find myself wanting to surround myself (granted a big portion of that is email/chat) more with those that i am less close with - not sure if that make sense.

I am not sure if it stems from the fact that one of my good friends that i told responded in not a good way. it was a basically "are you getting ready to move on", expressing anger, not supporting saving the marriage (basically just thinking i should bolt).

With family i am just not ready to 100% open up, and being stuck under the same roof scares me

Thanks, Mel. I owe a lot of what I learned to you!

Yeah, I hadn't considered that. Mortarman uses some hard core scripture and doctrine in his posts about man and woman roles. You may still get something out of it though. There are other inspiring stories by others too. Just keep reading the threads. It has helped me a lot.

I know what you mean! 75% of the people that I have shared my experience with say to kick my wife to the curb and some are very forceful about their opinions. It definitely can muddy the water when you get a lot of feedback like that. You've got to do what YOU think is best in the end.

What does "t/j" stand for?

I am not sure what is best, but I know that I am not ready to move on yet so that means fight. I think when people support curb kicking --- it makes it hard to really get the type of support I need. The last thing I want is to be dragged out on some sort of "guys" night where people can tell me cliche things like "women, can't live with them - pass the beer nuts".

But the bad news is i have little choice between that and being alone all the time. limited set of friends, and basically nobody that is not super busy this time of year...

Look, I can't tell you what to do and I am no expert at this. But as I see it, you can use the vacation that you have ahead of you to do something good for yourself. Turn it into something positive! I know that it is not that easy to just change your mind and be happy instead of down but I really think that you should try to make something out of it.

From my not-at-all-an-expert point of view I would suggest for your vacation:
-Change of location. Go somewhere, it is not really important where. If you don't want to stay close to relatives, you don't have to.
-Physical challenges. That was the reason I suggested skiing. Get out and get tired, have a good dinner and go to sleep. Repeat that for 1-2 weeks and see what it does for you.

After my D-day I didn't go to see my family for almost three months and I hardly talked to them. I put off talking to them because I hoped that STBX would turn around and everything would be ok. I wanted so badly to be able to tell them that I and STBX had been having a rough time but now, now everything was fine again. When I finally went to see them and told the whole story to my dad, I was so afraid of what he would say. He was always fond of STBX and I think he really saw STBX as family. But he just said: "If he has done that, you don't have any reason to be sorry that he has left. I'm dissapointed with him but it would have been much worse if you would have done something like that." I think I was afraid to tell him because I felt like I had failed but he was 110% on my side and he never told me what to do. I hope that your family will support you too. Family is always family.

thanks for the encouragement.

One thing that has helped me a lot has been to work out at the gym. I have a very inexpensive community center membership for about $20/month. It just feels really good to go pump some iron and run on the treadmill. It helps me convert my negative emotions into a healthy habit. Endorphins are a natural drug and you can't help but feel a little better during your workout... Plus you'll look better after a while and this will help your self esteem.

It probably hasn't hit me full force like it's hit you though because my WW and kids are still living with me in my house. After next weekend, they should be completely moved out and then I'll finally feel the full force of that. I'm not looking forward to it.

Right now I'm planning to keep busy around the house by cleaning and fixing things until the house is immaculate. I always feel better when I'm in a clean house--WW has let the house fall behind on the cleaning and she doesn't "let me" clean because she feels like it's too much hassle for her to work around me with the kids and everything else. She's very controlling about the house which has always been an issue.

But anyway, you will make it through this just like everyone else will or already has. Just hang in there and believe that it must get better eventually.

What would you do in this situation. You have not seen WW in a week. You are taking a "break" and have not spoken. WW wishes that you would spend your time doing something fun and not mope around. She wants me to be doing all the same stuff you all are saying. That is going to for sure be more attractive. In her foggy mind she thinks that when we do talk it will be good because we have not seen each other and we will have stuff to talk about like what we have been up to. I on the only hand just care about our time apart being that she decided if she is going to end the A or not. It is a weak plan B, but I did say that i dont want her back if he is in the picture at all.

Anyways, say she is going to call in 15 minutes and you basically done nothing noteworthy and mostly did mope around. She calls with the hopes of a positive conversation, and will ask how you have been and what you have been up to.

Would you
1) Tell the truth that you have been miserable and sat around the house the whole time, etc
2) Change the subject and dont talk about it (or minimize that part of the conversation
3) Lie and make something up to sound less pathetic knowing that #3 is the optimal route

I have typically done #2 in the past and when pushed i do #1.
I should have been doing #3 for the last week anyways, but i have not been.

So the phone is ringing or the door opens. What is your response?

First of all, if you are going to apply the MB principles, you need to decide if you are in Plan A or Plan B... If you are going to do a plan B, you need to write your letter stating what you are doing and then go dark. I haven't started plan B yet, but when I do, I plan to follow it to the best of my ability.

I don't trust my own mind right now because I am too close to the situation. I'm trying to follow the advise of these gurus here who are thinking clearly. Dr. Harley says it's a strait and narrow path that leads to recovery. If you stray from the formula, you're on your own...

If you are in Plan B, you don't talk to WW until she says she has ended the A and wants to work on M.

If you're in Plan A, DO NOT TELL YOUR WIFE THAT YOU'VE BEEN MOPING unless you are trying to get rid of her for good. I don't recommend lying but you can certainly not tell her you've been moping. It's just repulsive and unattractive. Nobody likes to be around someone who is moping. Just saying it like it is...

I guess out of the three choices, I would have to say "trick question" and go with option 4 which is: YOU DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE BECAUSE YOU ARE OUT AT THE GYM GETTING RIPPED AND HAVING A LIFE. If you have time after you're done working out and done hanging out with your new friends (or whatever), then call her back if you want and tell her you weren't home to take her call because you were too busy having a life.. (all in a kind way of course)

I think anybody wants to be with a person who is OPTIMISTIC and confident. You HAVE TO stop the moping!! Seriously. I went to see my MC and I was feeling like a victim and sorry for myself. He didn't cater to it at all. He said I have to stop that crap immediately. It doesn't do ANY good. Heck, have you met with a marriage counselor yet? This has helped me a ton too. He's like my own personal coach.

Anyway, I hope I wasn't too harsh but I'd want someone to be frank with me in a situation like this.

not harsh at all. i agree.

it just takes me a bit longer then some people. i have been working on getting some sticks in the fire for things to do and people to hang out with, just timing with the holidays makes it tough for people.

i just have needed some time to sort through my thoughts. just heading out on errands today was really tough on me to keep my composure up.

i am not officially in plan B, because i did not write the letter and i am not 100% committed. But it seems like i should just write the letter because we are in a 1-2week dark period which is going to pass xmas and probably NY. i already told her that i dont want her back/work on things until he is audi. i just did not make it official, but why not? seems like there is no reason not to at this point.