I'll give you everything in short form and see where this post leads.

I found out through reading her cell phone that my wife has been a WS. We have lived together for 10 years. First 8 were great years, next one was so-so, and the last one was just plain bad. My WS agrees with that kind of history. I found out on Oct 26th about the affair, and guessed that it had been happening for about 2 months, which she confirmed. I have moved to a friends house to stay, but we are spending nearly every moment together outside of work, and the behaviours which made me suspicious in the first place have completely disappeared.

The OM was a longtime friend and co-worker who she developed feelings for, however he has a wife and kids and I think it's a classic case of being with someone she never would have chosen if she were single, as I know he was also miserable in his marriage. The OM does not work in the same building and does only come to our building on occasion for meetings. We are both highly placed in the company, which makes work awkward.

We are going through MC (just started, third session today) and she is still in a fog. My WS is very remorseful for the affair and I recognize that she developed feelings for him which can't simply be shut off like that. She sent an e-mail and cut things off with him. However, she feels indifferent towards making things work with me. She told me that things are good when I'm with her, but she got used to me not being there (lots of travel, which made the affair possible), and so it's also good when I'm not there.

I know my WS very well and could tell when she was lying to me and that things were very wrong. This is what led me to look at the cell phone. I've been plan A'ing like mad and I told her that indifference was an improvement because two months ago she didn't want me around period. She had asked me to move out a week before I found out, as I know she was racked with guilt and didn't want me to know. She is having trouble sleeping, keeping up at work and is losing weight. She has been devastated as well with what she has done.

Right now, she can see us together, but doesn't know how to get there. Part of her wants this to work, because she has agreed to counselling and wants to spend time with me. She is having a hard time opening up to talk about how we move forward in small steps. Our MC described it as biting off chunks as opposed to trying to eat the elephant.

She is horribly embarassed as to how our friends, family and co-workers will treat her and this is hanging over her like an axe as some people know already, as I turned to our closest friends for support, which pissed her off severely. WE both have lost an incredible amount of trust in each other, but I would appreciate anyone's veiwpoint as to what can be done to help a WS and a BS who both know we had a great life, we were unbelievably happy together, we both agree on what we were each doing that led to the affair, but we don't exactly know how to push this forward, or how to make the love come back.

I'm 38,

WS = 42
Two kids, 16 and 13 (step-kids to me)
D-day - Oct 26/08

wow, this sounds so much similar to mine.

First and most important, is there complete NC with the OM ?
Is saving family is so important to you, why dont you expose the affair ?

She is probably going through severe conflicts like my wife herself. Did she realise how badly she hurt you ?

Did you and your wife start talking on daily basis ? Spending alteast 20 hours or more time together.

After i got over my shock, I have started to work on myself. Taken up new hobbies and doing things which i have always wanted to do but never had that motivation. This will also take your mind of the affair and think more positively.

Do you kids know anything about this ?

You may want to print the EN/PN, LBs questionnaire's from this website and spend the time together identifying those needs/busters.

I dont know who long it takes for your WW to come out of the fog. In my case, my wife is still in it! They say it could take as much as six months in case of WWs especially if they had both Emotional and Physical components in it.

Hang in there. It is slow, painful process. Focus on short term goals for now and hope that it gets better. That's exactly what i am doing.

But MAKE sure that there is absolute NC with OM. That is critical. Otherwise, recovery is meaningless.

Good luck.

She had the affair and you moved out ? And kids still with her ? I must be missing something here.

Hurting,

If you can establish that your wife is having NO contact with OM, it is quite likely that she is in "withdrawal," and therefore unable to accept the loving things you are offering at the moment. Please read the articles linked on the home page to understand this process. And don't stop offering the best of who you are to her. Odds are there are some things YOU did to contribute to the less-than-ideal conditions your M was in (all that traveling, for starters. Can you curb that?)

You might also want to read the three books that constitute sort of a "bible" around here--Dr. Harley's books, His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and Surviving an Affair (all available from the MB bookstore). The principles in these books are what so many of us on these forums have used to reclaim and recover our marriages after one partner (or both!) have had an affair.

You gotta get up to speed and get a PLAN to get your marriage back on track. Marriage Builders offers the best plan there is. Read and show the material to your MC (assuming your MC is pro marriage. A lot of them just want to help you have a "happy divorce.") :crosseyedcrazy:

Welcome to MB. Stick around. You will learn a LOT.

Right Here Waiting

Thanks for the quick response. I have been on this website for probably 50 hours soaking up things before I could bring myself to talk about my situation.

She has wound the NC with the OM down to next to nothing. For the first month, she believed in the "we can be friends" concept, which I would not accept, and she knows it. I kept exposing incrementally. She told me that it was over for her, but he clearly wanted it to continue. He told the OM to go work on his marriage as it was done between them.

The contact with the OM is not zero, but close to it (he still pops by work unannounced)and I have told her that she needs to make it zero. As for the affair, they have no time to spend together, because we are with each other outside of work until late into the night. I have stopped all travel and have worked hard to fix the things I knew were aggravating her and she has noticed.

Based on her guilt, embarassment and the threat of what this will do to her friends and co-workers (who all like me very much, and not the OM)I do believe that she wants no continuing affair with him. We have brought this up with the MC, who has asked for a one on one session with just her (today) to address the issues he has seen with her.

The seven weeks since I found out have been a complete rollercoaster, ranging between us going to bed together five times, to days where we can barely have a conversation.

She is faced with a job that she has fallen behind in, a busy christmas season that she has always been well prepared for, kids who are very busy in sports and this mess we are in. She hasn't been able to tell anybody about what she has done because of the blowback that would happen. I've told our closest friends only because I needed support. Her world is crashing in around her, which leaves her two options. Make it work with me, or run and start a new life somehow, based on what she has told me.

Let me say that despite the advice to expose to everyone, that WILL NOT work with my WS. I KNOW that it would drive a wedge between us that would never come out, there is no doubt in my mind. The exposure that I've done has removed the fantasy and the remorse is genuine because she knows what she has done to our family and the OM's family. She was disowned by her family after her first divorce and her exH is a weekly pain in her [censored]. The threat of this getting any more exposure is already out there and she feels like she is walking on eggshells until everyone knows. It is killing her.

She is very much in withdrawl as my efforts have made some impact, but it's disappointing in how little. At least we have come to a point where we are comfortable together. We have talked at length about what led to her feeling the way she did and agree that they are all things that can be fixed, if we want to fix them.

She is a very passionate person and I know that for her to do this, she had serious feelings for the OM, despite how crazy and illogical it all seems when the secrecy is gone.

I moved out because the kids are not my biological kids and when I found out, I wanted to run for the hills. I will not do that and I will not make it easy for her and just run. She's asked me to go find somebody I deserve and "cut my losses". My feelings for her and the kids keep me right where I am, fighting for our marriage. The kids treat me like a father and I treat them like they're my own kids and she knows it. I am also the breadwinner by far and she can't stay in that house without me.

Over the last couple of months, there have been a couple of times where I've indicated it was over and I was gone and both times she came back asking me back to work things out. Trouble is, when I'm back for awhile, she can't seem to figure things out as to whether she wants to make it work, or whether we can make it work. She is a complete mess and I don't know what, if anything, I can do.

The kids know we have issues and that I've obviously moved out, but they do not know about the affair. If her exH finds out, look out. The kids spend 1 week with him and one week with her. I spent 10 years protecting her from him and being her biggest supporter because he was a psycho. He knows I've moved out and is looking to cozy up to her which is also driving her up the wall.

I am trying to focus on healing myelf, but my entire world has been rocked. I don't just lose her, but an entire family as I can't bring myself to make the kids spend time with "three" parents.

I have asked that we do the little things and make baby steps. She has responded by doing some of this, but I think she needs to decide whether there is something worth saving. She agrees with nearly everything I tell her or share with her (from what I've learned at MB), but her head is just so clouded I'm not sure how much of that has sunk in. I'm not sure if she thought it would just turn around like that, or if she needs some help. She checked out on our marriage by assuming I didn't want to make things better and now it kills her that she didn't know how I really felt.

I would bet every penny I have that if she could undo it all she would. Too bad it can't happen and now she has to deal with all this mess while I execute Plan A and watch.

Did your WW betray husband #1 as well?


As you have already pointed out, NC needs to be zero. Please check sample letters in the articles.

Plan A involves a "Carrot and a stick". Clearly, her very strong need is social acceptance (carrot) and therefore the stick is obviously (and usually) exposure.

By now, you must know that moving out is not recommended for various reasons. The chief reason here is that you limit opportunities to meet her needs. Ironically, these meeting of needs will NOT have major effect while she is undergoing withdrawal.

I feel that there is possibly a way to deal with OM discretely through the corporate channels. Shagging a colleagues spouse does NOT, to my thinking, encourage team building...

Oh and since you can afford them... contact the Harley's and stop wasting time.

Sounds like my xWW. Change your behavior (could not say if you had bad marriage just prior to the A or not) and start meeting her needs and take it slow - One day at a time. Stop all LBs. And read up like crazy. I have become a sponge in the last few months and i am loving it.


sounds like she is very remorseful, which is a necessary step, in my opinion, for any decent recovery.

She did betray him and she is estranged from her family because of it. He exposed her affair to anybody and everybody and she basically started over with new friends and a new person (me).


I have given serious consideration to dealing with the OM through work channels as I likely have a 50/50 chance of getting him outright fired. The company is huge into team building and respectful workplace atmosphere. It's not loyalty to him but two things nag me. First my WS would know it was me and exposure has already occurred. Second is he is the sole breadwinner of his family. Our families were friends as we spent time together as families. The OM's wife is a stay at home wife, with no income.

My last act, if I get wind that anything is continuing to happen is to go through work and do nuclear exposure. I am hoping it will not come to that because she does act quite differently. She texts me to tell where she is, to ask me how I'm doing. She is slowly starting to show some affection, but slooooowly. If you knew my WS, this would make more sense to you. Because of what happened with her first husband, she is a strong, independant woman. If she didn't want to make things work, there would be no MC, I would not be invited over every night after work, and she would not be making the efforts that she has.

She knows there is absolutely no future with the OM, but he wants her, which I'm sure, at some level, she enjoys because we were so distant and cool for months. I think the level of exposure I've done has served the purpose that the Hartley's talk about. The embarassment is real, the world crashing down around her is real. When I walk in our house, you'd think I had never left. Our pictures are up, my towel still hangs in the bathroom. She hasn't touched a thing to keep the image that I'm still there.

She hasn't told most of our friends that I've even moved out. She has invited me to go along with her to some of these friends places. She knows she could never justify any of what she has done.

I don't necessarily believe the "once a cheater, always a cheater". We had serious problems and did not communicate well. For 8 years, we managed to get through all of that, but at some point it just starts to build and we didn't deal with what amounts to small issues. The message I sent her was that I didn't care about her. She just kept getting mad at me and pushing me away, and I let her do it because of how she was making me feel. We were textbook cases for the Harley's.

Now we know what we were each doing and the message we were sending, but there's been so much damage done (with more potentially to come) that she seems paralyzed, waiting for the next kick to the gut.

You have been lied to and/or are currently being lied to.

Table exposing at work for now. Put that on the backburner.

But contact OM's wife. You see, cheaters always say it's over with their current spouse. They always say that the other marriage is a nightmare and about to end and on the rocks.

I'd be willing to bet my next month's paycheck that OM's wife is oblivious and living fat dumb and happy.

You should expose to OM's wife at a minimum.

Now, as far as your WW goes: she cheated on her first husband. She's now cheated on you.

You say her ex-H is psycho. This strikes a cord with me. Why?

Because my ex cheated on me and I'm sure she has everyone that's near her convinced that I'm psycho as well.

You've been getting one side of the story for years.

But you have just gotten a giant dose of the very sour medicine your WW's previous BH got. Trust me, there's a little craziness that comes with it, especially when there is no recovery.

I'm sure some of his "psycho" behavior was simply a normal man coping with the pain of healing from infidelity and having his family destroyed, much as you're experiencing right now.

Good luck trying to save your marriage. I simply wish to offer you some food for thought.

I do believe that once a cheater almost always a cheater. There are a few who become former waywards, but your WW did this to her previous H and has now done it to you.

You should, however, at an absolute minimum, contact the OM's wife.

I'm sure you'll be surprised by what you hear.

Hurting,

Let me reiterate what you've heard from a couple of us now. No contact means NO contact. None, zero, of any kind, ever. As you've seen, "next to nothing" isn't cutting it.

I understand that this OM "pops by" your organization regularly, but does not work there? For what purpose does he show up? Could you (as a "higher up") discontinue business with his firm, or at least request a different rep handle your account?

Kudos for stopping all travel! That is HUGE, especially now. Have you absorbed the material here on emotional needs? Love busters? Implement both parts of the plan, whether she notices how much or not. If you can get her completely away from OM, and through withdrawal, she will come around.

I understand your hesitancy to expose further (and like Imagine, assume she ended marriage #1 because of infidelity, so she sure wouldn't want strike 2 with family and friends). You are seeing some effort on her part, but if that doesn't grow (soon), you would be well advised to expose to all anyway. You've already said it's the ONE thing she truly fears... Don't "protect" her from the consequences of what she's done. It NEVER helps. I don't think there's a wayward here who's come back without experiencing the consequences of what they've done. A cardinal rule here is "Let the consequences of the A fall freely on the heads of the adulturous." There's good reason it's part of the Plan.

That's starting to happen. You said, "She is faced with a job that she has fallen behind in, a busy christmas season that she has always been well prepared for, kids who are very busy in sports and this mess we are in. She hasn't been able to tell anybody about what she has done because of the blowback that would happen...Her world is crashing in around her..."

Consequences. How many "consequences" will she need to break away completely? Nobody can tell you that. You will have to watch carefully, and be prepared to let her take MORE consequences for her own selfish actions, until there are enough to bring her head completely out of her fog, and her heart back to the M.

You also said, "Trouble is, when I'm back for awhile, she can't seem to figure things out as to whether she wants to make it work, or whether we can make it work. She is a complete mess and I don't know what, if anything, I can do."

The "mess" you refer to is called "cake eating." OM is by no means a distant memory, and you come back when she wants you to. Can you see why anyone would give up the good stuff coming from TWO adoring suitors when they kid themselves into believing they could have it all, even for just a while?

There's more to it than that, though. She's not sure you will keep up doing all the things you're doing now to woo her back. Might be afraid you will go back to whatever behaviors caused her to want something "better." You must be consistent, and show her that the changes you've made are real and lasting.

You would bet "every penny" that she would undo it all if she could. We all know she can't, but what kind of remorse are you seeing? What is she willing to DO to make up for this mountain of hurt she's visited on you? Talk's cheap. Watch what she DOES.

And hang in there. Affairs almost invariably end, and the WS wonders what they were thinking. As long as you are standing strong and offering to meet her needs, it will be safe for her to come back completely--once she's free of all those "feelings" she's got for OM.

And Hurting,

Pombd3 is right. OM's wife must know, especially if you were all friends! How pissed would YOU be if you learned later that SHE knew and didn't tell YOU? She has a right to protect HER marriage, and to fight for it too. She can't fight the threat she cannot see.

Not only is it the RIGHT thing to do, her knowing will HELP keep your WW and OM apart! OMW can be your trustiest ally; she's got as much at stake as you do.

Right Here Waiting

All good points. I listen to what my WW tells me and then I confirm. If she says she goes back to work to catch up, I drive by and make sure (and make sure the OM's vehicle is not there). She is texting me to tell me where she is and when she'll be home and she meets schedule. 90% of the time when she's out, she's with the kids.


I do not trust her 100%, but so far in the last few weeks, there has not been any inconsistency and her behaviour and attitude towards me has changed considerably. As for the OM, on D-day I emailed him threatening to expose to his wife. He had the choice to tell her himself, or I was going to do it the next day. It sent my WW and the OM through the roof next day, which I enjoyed, as it caused a complete lack of sleep. I then went back to the house the next day and removed my belongings and several things from the house, which sent my WW reeling. The reality of all this has come home to roost and I'm not naive after reading 100's of posts on this website, that they lie. I saw her lie to me for a month, before things started to turn around and her behaviour changed.

Through the cell phone texts that I intercepted a few weeks back, I know the OM's wife has hired a divorce lawyer and so while I haven't contacted her, I believe she has enough info to launch into the divorce.

As for my WW's ex-H, he has issues way beyond her cheating. I don't discount the hurt she caused what she did to him because I now know how much a betrayal hurts and how badly it damages a person. My WW doesn't dare so much as breathe about her affair to anybody. Optically, she couldn't even begin to explain to friends and co-workers, who know us all very well. I don't have any concern about her trying to paint me as a psycho, as she spent considerable time with our closest friends (the wives) to discuss our personal issues and vent and ask for help. Imagine their surprise and disgust when they learned she was screwing round at the same time she was leaning on their shoulder for help. Likely looking for reasons to justify what she was doing. Our closest friends were outraged and she knows it.

One of the things I find comfort in, is the fact that she knows she didn't learn any lessons the first time around. I think she feels she was completely justified in cheating and leaving him. She doesn't feel the same way this time, but now same problem, same actions, same consequences. Only this time, she's at least admitted to wanting to learn from this, fix things, so that it doesn't happen again. That was a few weeks ago, and since then the fog comes and goes.

I have been executing Plan A quite well. I have never so much as shouted at her or had any angry outbursts. In fact on D-day, when I was packing a bag, I told her that I spent a good chunk of the day trying to think of ways to hurt her like she hurt me, but that for her to have an affair, I already had hurt her.

I can see the remorse, the lack of sleep, the not eating and I know this is not somebody who things well of what she did, or wants to continue on that path. She learned nothing the first time, but seems to want to do it this time. We'll see if her one-on-one session with the MC helps today.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think you are giving your WW too much credit. All of the behaviors you point to suggest that she is not indifferent, but rather indecisive. Generally that indecision comes from a philisophy (whether chosen or learned) of "going" with one's feelings.

Its a bit of a catch-22 of waiting for the M to be the obvious choice because you feel so good about it before actually committing to work on the M.

All the stuff right now (not withdrawal because that only starts when you end contact and she hasn't done that), is treading water until her "feelings" show her the way. The stress and what not is a function of that indecisiveness. And she will agree to go along with whatever you recomend (so long as it is not too painful) in an effort to test and see if it will tip the scales one way or the other. Inviting you over is a test, going to MC is a test, keeping contact with OM is a test. She is just waiting for something to light the way.

Unfortunately, WS's can stay like this for a long, long time. Back and forth, committed one day, over it the next.

What you just mentioned is exactly what I think I'm watching. She has spent considerable time dwelling on how good things were between us, but likely an equal amount of time on our problems. To some extent, I'm sure she has rewritten some of our history, as one of her biggest concerns is whether it's possible for her feelings to just return. My view is that they can and that is simply going to take time, while she sees that I'm making positive changes and that she has NC with the OM.

She is completely indecisive right now and I'm willing to put in 2-3 months to see where this all goes. She knows that I'll be supportive, but I won't be a doormat. We had this discussion last week by ourselves and then again with the MC. As calmly as I could, told her that I was sick of the lies, the lack of effort to ensure that there was complete and utter NC, and the amount of effort she was putting in. Since then, she is more attentive, but we have a long ways to go.

I just ran into her in the stairwell at work, and if I didn't know better she was flirting with me the way she used to when we first started dating. We have our ups and downs and that's just the way its going to be until she comes out of this fog and decides what she would like to do. Somedays its incredible in that the WW acts like nothing has happened, and the next is guild ridden city.

Thanks rightthere.

A lot of what you said rung true in our MC session last night. She finally provided me the true start date of the A (late July) which made it a 3 month affair.

Her main worry right now is that the changes I've made won't hold. I wasn't contributing around the house, I had gained weight and started to snore and when she complained, I didn't really do much about it. She kept pushing me and pushing me away and I let it happen. She has acknowledged where she could have done things differently and doesn't blame me solely for what has happened.

I asked her if she felt guilty about it and she said initially yes, she felt horrible, but as things got worse between us and I travelled more to get away from the house, it made it easier for her and to carry on the A. The guilt returned when she found out how I really felt and that I wanted her (this happened before D-day).

I think she knows that life with the OM is no cakewalk (three kids and one with autism) and reality (potential blended family) is not as good as the fantasy that she had. The OM and his wife are apparently pursuing MC as well.

Our MC observed that it appeared as though the A would wind down like the vast majority of them, and that it just simply could not be cut off, but would wither and die. At this point, I think further exposure (work and friends)will do more harm than good as it is a major LB for my WW. She was very open and honest with me at the MC and for a 2 hour talk afterward. She offered me her cellphone to read anytime (she never keeps it locked or pword protected). She answered difficult questions and said the A was never about the sex, which I accepted after reading all over the MB website.

The MC suggested that I continue to do what I am doing to win her over and make her see that the changes I have made will stick. As I stated before, the simple fact that she will go to MC is a big step for her and she has said that part of her wants to make this work, but she is afraid things will just backslide for us and we will go back to the behaviours and habits that irritated each other.

We now have a long holiday season (3-4 weeks) before we'll be with the MC again, and so I will do my plan A and work on being the perfect spouse. We are going to plan out the next few days/weeks as to what we will be doing together and start rebuilding the trust between us.

So what will you do about telling OM's wife?

Exposure is a LB to all waywards. Every single one of them says that they will be mad and then threaten the betrayed that they, "ruined everything!"

Now, if every wife had an affair because their H's gained some weight and snored.... :RollieEyes:

Simply put your wife is in withdrawal from OM. That is what's causing the majority of the crying, weight loss and such. Not the guilt- sure she may feel guilty- but the majority of it is withdrawal from the OM. How do I know?? Easy, I've been there.

coacheswife.

If you've been in her shoes before, then what is the best thing that I can do. Am I on the right track?

I know she developed strong feelings for him, otherwise the sex would never have taken place. She knows that it was a mistake to open up to him, but now that we are where we are, she is sitting on the fence to use her words, as to whether she wants to try to make it work with me. She hasn't even considered what it would take to make it work with the OM.

Her choices are

1 - make it work with me and take on the risk that nothing really changes and it doesn't work.

2 - try to make it work with the OM, get through two divorces and then blend the families on a part time basis and take on the extra baggage of his three kids and the public humiliation.

3 - start over fresh with somebody else, who she will have to get to know, get the kids comfortable with, etc etc.

I am trying to make #1 the obvious choice and the MC has stated that is what should be done as well.

Our conversations are getting better about finding out each others needs and what has been aggravating each other, so that we can each work on those things. We are not at each others throats and we have very good civil conversations. She knows I am there to support her.

I have already lost about 30 pounbs, I no longer snore like I use to (we have slept together on a few nights, not necessarily having sex) and she notices the changes in me. I think she just needs to see consistency and that it is a permanent change. At some point she is going to have to extend some trust and believe it can be done, but that is a big step.

I would love to pick your brain.

hurtininOct, are you married to her?

MelodyLane

For all intents and purposes yes we are married. We are common-law, having lived together for 10 years. We had decided that we would marry when the kids were older to avoid setting off more issues with her ex-H. That was our shared viewpoint up to a year ago.

I have been a co-parent with her, staying home when the kids were sick, taking them to their activities, etc, just like a parent.

I consider her to be my wife in all sense of the term.