Yes! I think we are all in agreement that doing nothing will avail..............nothing. I find it equally frustrating when folks allow FEAR to drive their decision making, because those people don't make it. Sadly, Plan A seems to attract conflict avoiders who use it as an excuse to do nothing. Creating conflict in affairs is what kills them and that is the always the very thing they seek to avoid.

I see those that hide out in Plan A for years on end sinking more and more into the same sewer their WS resides in. It is a sad spectacle to watch.

MyRev, there is something else I have learned here. You and I look at an affair as a PROBLEM TO BE SOLVED. We cannot fathom seeing it any other way.

Some do not see it the same way. They are not here to SOLVE the problem, they are here to commiserate and garner sympathy. This is WHY they are resistant to any suggestions we make to them to TAKE ACTION. They do not actively manage problems as we would. They allow the problem to MANAGE THEM and go along with the flow.

I have learned to differentiate between those who are here to SOLVE PROBLEMS and those who are here to chat and commiserate. The latter FRUSTRATE me so I have to walk away. I have to remind myself that they have just as much right to be here as the problem solvers. There are others here that can commiserate with them, but I can't do that. I just can't allow them to frustrate me. I simply move onto someone who does want help.

The only issue I see with the ultimatum approach is that the ultimatum gives the decision to the WW. It is something I could never allow. Not after infidelity. I wanted to make that decision and I wanted to make it when I was ready.

I wanted the WW to know what I stood for. Who I was and what was important to me as a H, as a father, as a person and that this stuff is seriously important to me. I was not bluffing.

Then, it is her actions that either support it or not and it is my decision to make.

Wonderful approach.

This has been an interesting thread to follow.

Is there one for BW's regarding WH's???

Yep! That'll preach...
Absolutely!
And this is why I have walked away from some threads until I see SOME type of action taking place.
I know this to be a FACT!

I would expect anyone who truly wants to save their marriage to issue an ultimatum. I would doubt seriously that many who find their spouse is having an affair would NOT demand that the affair come to an end.

But between demanding an end to the affair and getting a divorce, there are a lot who still desire to save the marriage even if the the affair doesn't end right away. And for them, there are Plans A & B.

There are two basic ways to handle conflict. One is to attempt to find a resolution to that conflict. This requires taking some sort of action and always requires direct confrontation of the source of the conflict. Letting it go in hopes that it will fix itself never works and only delays any kind of resolution to any real problem.

The second way people handle conflict is to avoid it at all costs. Anyone who avoids conflict at all costs generally lives their entire life in this mode. They have no boundaries, no will to impose their desires or views on others and not a lot of ambition. They go with the flow and think that getting along is more important than getting it right. These are the ones who were "just following orders" at Auschwitz, at Malia and at ENRON. They "go along to get along" and think that success is measured in lack of turmoil.

Now there are varying degrees in between these two extremes and some people follow one method or the other part of the time but anyone who desires resolution confronts conflict rather than avoiding it.

I'm still of the opinion that Plan A and Plan U (Ultimatum) are not mutually exclusive. And certainly Plan A is intended to be a plan of ACTIONS rather than one of INACTION.

There was a guy here a year ago who was totally confused when he found out his wife was chasing after some other guy. He demanded that she stop all contact with him and she never really ran off to be with the OM. He struggled at first to understand what Plan A was all about, but eventually became a master at meeting her ENs without Love Busting. He pressured her to end the affair, refused to go along with talk of separation and divorce and made her ability to have an affair as hard as possible. On the eve of her moving out to live in her own apartment, he found information that pointed to the true character of OM and dropped the bomb on his wife with the help of friends and neighbors who had helped him discover the information...

His wife broke down, remorse was obvious and recovery began almost at once. The two of them counseled with the coaching center (which he had been doing almost from the beginning, BTW) and recovery is still ongoing today.

If he had simply required her to stop all contact or move out, he would likely be divorced today since she was going to move out once she got her finances in order and it took him till the night before that took place to get to the breakthrough he needed to save his marriage. Anyone here a year ago knows who I am talking about by now, but I leave it up to those who don't know the situation to discover it by reading rather than by me simply pointing it out.

This WW had packed her bags, signed a lease on an apartment and was ready to hit the door. It was NOT constantly beating her up about the affair and making himself a better option than being alone that kept her there till he got the piece he needed to blow the fantasy to little tiny pieces. When the fantasy collapsed, she had no hesitation about staying married to him and quickly realized that she had been living in a fantasy land that was never real, and certainly not as real as his love for her.

True success story of Plan A at its best...If he had stuck to "get with it or get out," she'd have been gone, since she was planning to be gone all along until the very end and if he had not shown her the man he really was by then, she might have walked away even without OM waiting in the wings.

And yes, it took a huge toll on him emotionally and even physically, but he took action to save his marriage and it WORKED!

And he's one of my heroes...

Mark

Mark,

Your talking about TooMuchTooSoon. He couldn't have done it without your coaching and encouragemnt. I know for a fact that he would be pretty embarassed over you calling him one of your heroes though and would insist that it is really the other way around. Sure wish he'd come back and post for a while.

Want2Stay

W2S,

I was trying to let the boy off the hook and not embarrass him and here you went and told everybody...

He did good for a curler... :RollieEyes:

For those not familiar with curling, it is a game played on ice with a big rock and some brooms. The Canucks like the game because you an play it with rocks and ice, something they have plenty of...

(If that don't get the boy to post, I don't know what will)

I think curling is for the ones that can't skate...

BTW, he did post a time or two a couple weeks ago in reply to one of Not's threads.

Here I am threadjacking my own thread...

Wait; can you even do that?

I completely agree that one should cause as much conflict as possible relative to the affair. Expose. Set boundaries. Tell the kids snd don't buy into the blameshifting. I wish I had been more proactive and made their lives miserable.

I second that! Is there?

I really don't intend to start an argument, but can't let this pass unchallenged.

It was my impression, that this case SHOULD have been blown up much sooner ... MANY were advising just that ... it wasn't "new" information that prompted the action ... it was the FINAL slap of his WW's imminent movethat proded the poster into ACTION.

He later posted that he wished he had taken ACTION SOONER.

Plan A had little to no effect in this case ... ACTION saved the day.

I personally see a difference between a demand and an ultimatum.

Perhaps I am incorrect.

To me:

demand is like an order when one has the authority to issue an order

ultimatum is stating a fact about the consequences for carrying through with certain decisions and/or actions

The BH gets in trouble (BWs too, for that matter) when he/she thinks they are giving an ultimatum when they have no idea how to impliment the consequences as promised.

An ultimatum with no follow through ruins credibility. The WS has to know for certain that the BS means what they say and has the wherewithall to make good on their ultimatum.

Which is why a rushed emotional ultimatum without preparation by the BS often fails to impress the WS.

adding to my last thought .... how many times have we read this

"I gave my WS an ultimatum"


And when reading the story it is clear that there was no ultimatum - what there was was, a temper tantrum, a verbal love busting session, and a huge vent session.

No different than the MB Plans really ... you do some half-baked version thereof, and they are worthless ... you do them right, and you see results.

It's ALL in the execution.

I guess I'm just missing the link here. Action worked, but Plan A had no effect... How is the conclusion derived from the results?

I think it is as likely that if he had pressed her really hard to make up her mind when his ordeal first began and she was living in her fantasy that OM was going to be there for her when she got away from TMTS, that she would have left sooner, probably run directly to OM, who didn't really want her, BTW and ended up with both of them on the fast track to divorce.

I believe that Plan A gave her something to reflect about as to her reasons for leaving the marriage and delayed her jumping into the sack with OM or as so many do, just move on to the next OM.

Action saved the day, but it was the actions that took place before that that led to the action on the eve of her departure that set the scene for that action to have the desired result. TMTS wasn't just following advice on this forum during this time but was talking to Jennifer on the phone and was following her advice.

About a year ago TMTS was here seeking advice on how to deal with his wife not wanting to spend the holidays with him, not wanting him to visit her parents, renting an apartment, buying a sofa for her love nest...He could have told her right then "stop or get out." But I think that if he had done that, she'd have gotten out and the D train would have been rolling along as an express.

She didn't stay because he told her she had to; she stayed because he gave her a reason to. He made staying a better option than leaving. As you read through his threads you can see clearly where she began to respond to his Plan A. It was when he stopped beating her up over it, quit discussing it with her all the time and stopped demanding that she make up her mind this instant when she started to realize that he was for real.

And you and I will never agree on this and I know that...

Mark

Easy ... Plan A went on for way too long with ZERO meaningful impact from my perspective. Once TMTS exposed OM lies about his GF to WW (which he knew about for some time if memory serves me correctly ... I didn't go back and reread his thread) is when he acheived the "results" he was seeking.



I know this is borderline heresy for some here, but the more I read of the "younger" Harley's advice, the less I am impressed by their abilities ... JMO.


Probably, but I don't think civil debate does any harm in viewing an issue from different perspectives.

Yeah, but at least TMTS's pride would have been intact.

Or would it?


Exactly what I think about Plan A vs Plan Ultimatum. If the WW submits to the ultimatum, what has changed? Is the marriage any more attractive for her? Does the BH have any motivation to change the way he deals with her, any reason why he might want to treat her better?

In Plan A, the BH cleans up his own act so that the marriage becomes an attractive option for the WW... while at the same time taking an active stand against her adultery.

In Plan Ultimatum, the BH makes a demand of the WW... and she either submits or rebels... but I don't see any way that it encourages her to be an equal partner in the marriage. It is simply a question of who has the most "hand" (as George Costanza would put it.)

Am I missing something here?

[/quote]

MyRev -

I have learned that my words have helped countless lurkers. I am certain yours have too. [/quote]



This statement is ABSOLUTELY true. I was a lurker for almost a year. The five months before I found MB were sheer H*LL. My emotions and responses to WH were everywhere. I was letting him live at home and still seeing OW. I ended up attempting suicide and in a phsyc ward. I was begging, pleading and WH would just say more and more cruel things. I wanted him to be home for my DS.

Then I found MB. I might have found it too late to save my M, but not too late to save ME.I coudnt beleive there were so many people going thru exactly what I was. I got a good plan A in before Plan b. PLAN b was a lifesaver for my sanity. Otherwise I think he would be still living here while seeing OW.

YOU all saved my sanity. THank you for posting.

Personally, I think all this debate centers on the mindset of the WW and what the BH wants to accomplish.

If the BH wants the matter resolved as quickly as possible regardless of the outcome, then plan U is always the best option. In the "speed" department, nothing beats plan U. I'm not saying that with any kind of bias or sarcasm.

If the BH wants to give his M the most chance for recovery, (i.e. sacrifice speed in exchange for greater chance of recovery), then to me, it depends on the mindest of the WW. For me, the simplest way to think about that is if she is acting like a "child" or like an "adult". I'll caveat that by saying, I realize anyone in A is somewhat acting like a child.

But what I mean is have they completely gone over the edge (OM is their soulmate, its their last chance at happiness, blah, blah, etc.) or do they still have some working higher functions?

If they still have some higher function left, then plan U will probably work well, but still has a risk that you have misjudged how much higher function they have. If they don't have any, then plan U will probably end up in divorce.

To me, the carrot and stick of plan A helps shift them so that some of that higher function returns.

Sometimes this debate reminds me of how I go about rounding up my cats versus my dogs. With the dogs, its a firm loud "come here". With the cats, that's meaningless. Always have to get the cat treats out and lure them over.

loved your post