This bears repeating.

I know you're going to feel pressured to be the nice guy, but just keep repeating to yourself: HE DID THIS TO HIMSELF BY HAVING AN AFFAIR.

And like tully says, the kids being in a safe, comfortable situation is more important than what any adult wants. Don't make this one of their bad memories if you can help it.

I keep thinking about the similarities in your WH’s situation, to my brother.
I think I have told you before that my brother has been a meth addict for many years.
I suspect that the reason he got started on meth in the first place, was a way to self medicate his own depression. I don’t know if I would say he is bi-polar, but he has definitely had issues with depression all his life

He has not worked a full time job for more than 2 years in a row, ever. Somehow he has always managed to find women who will work full time to pay the bills, while he stays home. In his younger years he was always talking about how he was working on “something” that was supposed to earn him a lot of money, some day soon. And that is why his various live in girlfriends never insisted that he contribute to the bills. They always knew that some day he was going to get the big pay out. As he got older, he had 3 children, so then he was always the “stay at home Dad” taking care of the kids and cleaning the house. That was the excuse for why he did not work.

The problem with all of this is: now he is 51 years old, out on his own, with no source of income. Here in the US we have the Social Security program. As long as you are working, you are paying something into the program, and when you retire you will get a check each month (that is the simplified versions of it)
But if you have not worked at least 4 years (I think it is 4 – I don’t remember the exact number, but I know he has not done it) then you can not get anything out of Social Security. So now he is 51 years old, no longer able to work (physical problems) and no longer living with his long time girlfriend. Apparently he beat her up for the last time, spent a month in jail, and now he is not allowed to go back to her apartment.
It is snowing here today – and my brother is homeless. I will not let him move in with me because I have a 7 year old step daughter – and I know that he just got out of jail for beating his girl friend. I cannot take a chance that he would hurt my step daughter. He cannot get any type of low income assistance, because he has never paid anything into the program. It is a very sad situation.

Today he is actually in the hospital having tests done to determine the extent of his physical disabilities
( his memory is very very bad now) and if I can convince the welfare people that he is not just lazy, but also physically disabled, I may be able to get him a source of income so that he can go into an adult foster care home instead of literally living on the streets.

My father wont take him in because for too many years my father has told him to get a real, full time, go to work every day, type of job. And now my brother is facing the horrible consequences of his 51 years of avoiding conflict, self medicating, and not taking a job that was “beneath him” or “boring”.

I see your WH going down this same road, if you don’t allow him to grow up now and take responsibility for himself. I know that he still tugs at your heart strings. I know that you have sympathy for this man that is the father to your babies. But he has got to grow up now, before it is too late.
Your WH is heading down this same path. He self medicates with female attention. He has not worked a full time job at all during the years you have been married.

If you were to allow him to come back to your home, and fall into his old routine, 10 years from now you will be completely sick of him. Sick of his moodiness, his laziness, his lack of maturity. You will eventually find a way to get him out of your home – and you will be free from his crap, finally. But he will go on to become a homeless man at age 51 with literally no hope left.

By enforcing your boundaries now, you are protecting yourself, and your kids, and frankly you are even protecting him. He needs to grow up. He has managed to find people who will take care of hi for the past 38 years. But that wont last for ever.

I just read your posts now, and I see my brother 15 years ago. I wish that something had happened to him back then to shake him up. I wish he had become completely homeless back when he was physically able to work. Instead of now, when it is really too late for him.

Thanks WOF. Firstly, I am so sorry that your brother is homeless at this time of year and with the currect economic situation too. It really isn't fair on anyone involved and I am sure is placing you under extra pressure too. I hope that his new "consequences" will be well received and that he can have a breakthrough with his hospital tests today.

I know that my WH needs to grow up and a month into his new job, it finally seems he is getting it. Whether it lasts is another thing. He is living with his dad and not really having to pay any bills so it is really just extra money at the moment which worries me some. I guess he needs to work that out now, not me. He is paying me money from his gigs now so at least the kids and I are being thought of again.

I feel terrible enforcing boundaries at this time of year, although I am sure I could find excuses for any time of year. It is just so easy for me to pick up the pieces and get organised.

Thank you for your post, and I wish you all the very best with your current situation with your brother. I understand why he can't live with you. Is he asking for that?

Take care.

He called my sister last night, he knew she was with me, to ask about visitation. She had already gone so she rang me to clarify what we had decided yesterday through the IM??? She sent me a message to confirm it!

Then, at midnight he sent me a text message:- "No need to reply but I wanted to confirm that I am still having the kids on Christmas day all day? And I would like to take them away for New Years, leave on the 31st and back on the 1st. Please answer to IM. Thanks. Love you."

I read it because I was asleep when I received it! Auto pilot does funny things. I did not respond, to him or IM. Messages through IM are actioned, no other way!!

I don't want him to have them on Christmas Day AND New Year's Eve. What is he playing at? He cannot be fun holiday dad when it suits him. He needs to feel lonely and this is not working for me.

Previously I said he could have the kids for lunch OR tea on Christmas Day, but that was before he arranged to take them for Christmas Eve for the day. I will have them from mid afternoon Christmas Eve to go to church and open presents with my family.

I haven't answered it and nor will I. Still waiting for message from IM. What do I say??? I don't want to appear like I am punishing him but I shouldn't be paying for his infidelity again by losing my kids for the holidays!!

Then, he sent 3 photos of the kids playing at his work on Saturday. They were cute but I didn't need them last night.

So, I miss H terribly and it's sinking in that we won't be a family for Christmas. Up until this point I still had hope and it's really hurting me again. I don't know what to do!!!

This is my baby boy's 2nd Christmas and my daughter's 4th Christmas and it shouldn't be this way.

I feel so much pressure and it's coming from all directions. Other people say that I am being difficult and that we should share the kids more and even catch up over Christmas. It's ok for them, but I don't know what to say any more.

The darker I go in Plan B the more confused I am becoming. I know it's because he still contacts me but I think I did go into this thinking it would push his hand one way or the other, quickly. Now I am not sure of anything.

I am just so sad. I'm at work and crying at my desk. Christmas sucks this year! I just want it to go back to what it was before OW. I hate this.

Hi 2M2L, how things 'appear' is irrelevant. You are not doing this to punish him, you are doing it to set boundaries, to let him know once and for all that his behaviour is unacceptable to you. Remember back to when he was at his most obnoxious to you and ask yourself if you want to live with that for the rest of your life? If the answer is no then you need to stop him now from doing it. Putting off dealing with the situation is only going to make things worse.

I think you are negotiating too much with him. Can you be firmer? Tell him you will be spending Christmas Day with your children but you are OK with him spending New Years eve and New Year's Day. (or whatever arrangement you do want) Don't ask him if that's OK with him, tell him. How about getting a new cellphone and don't tell him the number?

I can make the arrangements for Christmas and New Year. I think he will be unreasonable about it so that worries me some.

My cell number is a work number so I will have to keep it. I had thought about sending a default message back to him like "2609:Invalid data not received" after he sends the next message. Do you think he would think he wasn't getting through? I have told him through IM that I do not receive his messages but he is not deterred.

I feel attached to the phone, especially when he has the kids just in case there IS an emergency.

((((((2Much))))))

My heart goes out to you. I know how hard it is to deal with this during Christmas. It's the worst.

BUT... think of it this way. You are sacrificing ONE Christmas so that your's and your children's future Christmases will be better than ever. Even if your WH doesn't come around, you will be more whole and healthier in the end. Your children will THANK YOU for removing the chaos from their lives.

I firmly believe that your WH will finally break... but ONLY once he sees that 2Much isn't the meek little lamb she always was and will never be again.

He KNOWS you love him. He just can't get it his head that the old life is dead and gone and you won't settle anymore.

Stay strong so you can hold your head up and say to your children later in life, I did everything in my power to make a good life for you. Your WH, if he doesn't come around, will not be able to say the same. But if he does, you guys can build a new marriage.

Hang in there.

Thank you!!

I hope so. I hope that we can create some happy memories this year. It's just so hard to plan that far ahead the way I am feeling now. It's only a week away.

I hope so. I think maybe he is trying to push my buttons by suggesting holiday visits with the kids so that I will cave in and say "let's just get together", "take me with you" etc.

I believe this is true too.

This is what keeps me going. Thank you for writing it down for me! I am so teary today!!

Hello again fellow Plan B'er! I am so sorry you are hurting-shoot I am so sorry I am hurting LOL . I agree it is a hard time to have to go through this.

So dawhling you want to go back to that way it was? But it didn't work and it doesn't exist anymore. Why do back to what failed? I look back now to, and sometimes I remember the really funny love filled times but outside of that I actually can see clearer. Let me say this 1st so you can know I understand. I have been with my H since we were 14 years old, I do miss him and I am lonely at times too I wish I could wave the flag of surrender too because I just want my H back but at what for what and to gain what? The marriage we had is no longer there. There is nothing to go back to and for just a momentary comfort to only fail again? No thanks.

I look back now and see a family doing a very intricate dance around each other and yeah we had really great times but only because we knew how to dance around each other, kids too. That is NOT living. God did not create you to be in bondage but to be free. You must gain a resolve that you truly deserve that you want. You must have steel resolve to set boundaries.

I think I read that your children are younger I think, and if so thats a great thing in relation to Christmas because the older they are the harder it is. Now I am not discrediting that its hard, just trust me, I have 17 and 10 and there no story or excuse or pretty shiny thing you can distract them with. The fact that they are young works to your advantage because they have mommy and that my dear is heaven to little ones.

So about your confusion or pressure. Here's some thoughts and of course they are only opinions. Okay you have been operating one way your whole life, and maybe like me you are finding yourself at 38(me) and having to for the 1st time in your life create boundaries. Your mind is used to operating one way but now you are creating a new way so your emotions and should is conflicted a bit and is confused, now that does not always mean its a bad thing to feel like this, the more you keep doing this standing up for your self the more your mind, will and emotions will get familiar with this new way of living. Right now your soul is wrestling with what your heart and mind know you must do. Does that make sense? Keep going, keep creating strong boundaries and DO NOT go back on them, your H will only think your a liar each time you do and each time you do he loses respect for you.

Right now I just tell myself T2L you must continue setting boundaries and stand firm because one way or another my H is going to gain respect for me, whether we recover the marriage or not. I don't want to lose my self respect in this either and my Pastor told this to me as well.

As far as what every one else thinks and let me be frank, who stinking cares!!!! They have absolutely NO idea of what they are talking about and I say that with the most respect and love that I can. I'm not sure if you have read all of my thread but I am a worship leader and an associate Pastor and just because of this I do NOT feel that I must be weak with no boundaries or respect for myself. Jesus was not a weak man. Its okay for you to set boundaries, allow yourself to do this. Its not control. Its love, for you and your spouse. Letting him run all over you and control this situation is abuse to you and makes him look like a fool so if you love him do whatcha gotta do girlfriend. And yes its gonna hurt and suck and your gonna hate it but one day you will look back and me too and be glad you stood up for yourself.
Okay I know Im blabbing last thing, the kids right now I have H seeing the kids 2 times during the week and alternating Sat and Sunday. So basically only 3 times a week. I had the IM's send him what I will allow him to have the kids for. I told him through the IM's that I am taking them Christmas Eve to do presents with me just like we do every year and I am taking them Christmas Day just like I always do. I refuse to allow him to change what the kids are used to doing. And then I told him I am taking them on New Years Eve too. Do I feel bad about that? Heck no! I didn't do this and i didn't want this and he needs to see that we are going to continue life as normal. We are NOT going to rearrange anything. IF he wants to fight me then go ahead and file buddy but I will never make this easy as he has not made anything easy for me and neither has your H. I do not mean this in a disrespectful or malicious way either. Why is it whenever anyone makes a stand in life they are being mean or whatever, its lame.

Keep going, Please STAY DARK, for you. Find areas where you can go darker and tighten up, I just did that with the kids visitation. You can do this ride out the pressure and confusion, you are changing and growing in new areas of your life and its normal to feel that with true change. Don't stop you can do this.

Okay I slapped myself for blabbing so long....Much love and strength to you.

I agree. Who gives a flip what anyone else thinks about your situation? It's YOUR life, not theirs. YOU know what your H needs to do for you to have a healthy marriage. No one else does. Any pressure you get, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way; this is MY marriage and I'm fixing it the best way I know how." Then change the subject.

I repeat. Who gives a flip what he does? You are DARK! You have NO IDEA what he is doing because the IM is fielding everything, right? If your kids are home, turn off all your phones. YOU HAVE TO GO DARK RIGHT NOW FOR YOUR OWN SANITY.

I'll repeat:

YOU HAVE TO GO DARK RIGHT NOW FOR YOUR OWN SANITY.

If you have to, find someone to stay with you who can help you control yourself to keep away from him and his contacting.

And he gave up his right to have good holidays with his kids by not agreeing to what you need. IF HE LOVED YOU, he would have done what you asked by now. Scr&w him and the holidays he wants. THIS is your home, your kids' home. Keep it safe for them by ignoring him and all his manipulation.

T2L - amazing post and I really appreciate your extra long one too! You have really helped me with a plan B perspective.

Catperson, thank you for your post too. I read where you said to go darker and I had to smirk. Last night was horrible and anything but...

----------------------------------------------

This is turning into a nightmare. He hates not being in control and he worries me!!! I get the feeling his family might be behind this!

Anyway, kids call WH at 6.40pm from the bath to say goodnight. DD lied and said we were an nanna and grandpa’s but we were at home. I stay silent during these phone calls so I didn’t correct her. She said they were in the bath, mummy wants you to come home and she is sad cos she misses you. (True, but I didn’t prompt her at all or coach her). WH said he misses mummy too and wants to come home. He tells them he is going to see them on Friday for a sleepover and he loves them…

My sister calls at 9:30pm. I was getting out of the bath and called her back 10 minutes later. He is polite but asking for Christmas Eve times, all of Christmas day and 2 days over New Years eve. IM has a crisis and asked for my sister to be IM for a few days and told WH and I last night.

I had a feeling he would try and use my sister to push things through! She's a softy compared to my IM.

I sent her a message to send WH:- “Kids ready at 7pm Friday at mum and dad’s. Drop of kids at swimming 12.45pm. Can’t stay as I’ll need to swim with them if he can’t. Pick up kids from work at 8.30am Wed 24th Dec. Drop off at work at 2pm. Kids with me for Christmas day. He can see them boxing day or weekend. He can pick kids up from work at 8:30am on Wed 31st Dec. Drop off tba on Thu 1st Jan.” Boxing day is a public holiday in Australia on the 26th December.

So, he calls her and said I am keeping kids from him, being unreasonable blah blah blah. I offered him Christmas day on the email from IM and he wants it. She said she will pass message on. I said it’s not negotiable. I offered him lunch or dinner on Christmas day 3 weeks ago and he did not respond. I have made plans. He can have kids boxing day and New Years eve for his holiday with the kids!

He was still super mad. I asked my sister to tell him that it would not be resolved tonight and we would discuss it through IM later. Christmas isn’t till next week.

Then, he starts calling my phone. 49 missed calls on my mobile, 3 unanswered calls on my house phone and one message from him saying “I’m on my way”.

What the?? I asked my sister to send him a message to say stop contacting 2M2L and if you go to the house she will call the police. She will discuss this tomorrow.

I turn off all the lights and go to bed.

He gets there at 10:30pm and starts banging on the front door. “Let’s get this sorted now, you will not keep my kids from me, pick a day now and I’ll leave…..”

I politely asked him to leave. Please respect my wishes and leave, I have asked you to stay away and you’re here with a key at 10:45pm. I said we will talk about this tomorrow, not now. I will call the police if you don’t leave.

So, he lets himself it, gets mad, storms around. I call the police. They are a waste of time. Didn’t show up for 40 minutes. He could have done ANYTHING.

I call mum and dad.

He wakes up the kids to say goodnight then tells me he’s taking DD and I can’t stop him. Police are still on the phone and I say to him that he can’t get up a 3 year old at 11pm to take her. Think of her.

He was storming around looking for my bag and took my car keys.

I sat in DD’s room and asked him to leave.

I followed him out and asked him for my keys. He barked back and took off as mum and dad arrived. By this point I was crying and pretty upset and angry.

I had the kids with me and mum and dad and I were searching on the lawn for my keys across the road. He had parked and gotten out of the car as mum and dad arrived and I thought the keys might have been there.

He drove back (nicely) and walked up to dad. He handed the keys to dad and said that he respected him and that he was sorry.

He got in the car and drove off.

We all sat inside and waited for the police. They took 45 minutes!!! Gave a quick statement. They wanted his address and phone number. I gave his dad’s details.

They left, said to call if it happens again.

Mum and dad left. WH sent me a message at midnight and sent it to my sister's too. "I will never forgive you for the rest of my days for opening DD's room and standing in her room yelling while she lay there frozen with her eyes open. There was no need to upset her or scare my baby girl. I came in peace and you destroyed us. It was just you trying to make her scared of daddy".

I didn't do that. I sat in her room while he walked around to be comfort the kids and stay out of his way. WH banging on the door after they'd been in bed since 7pm had scared them.

My sister called me worried. I sent her a message to send to WH to try and difuse it:- “Hi WH. 2M2L loves you and wants your marriage to work. I don’t know what this is about but maybe call IM tomorrow. I hope all is ok. Good night.”

I haven’t heard from him since.

I thought we were getting somewhere. I wonder if his family is behind this. I wanted to deal with this today, not last night. Am happy for him to pick up the kids on Christmas day afternoon and take them for tea and a sleepover. But, I don’t think it’s fair that he gets them for Christmas and New Year. He wants to be good time dad and his family probably want to see the kids but I look after them everyday and I deserve to have a lovely holiday time with them too. I didn't ask for this. He hasn't wanted to be there the past 5 months.

This sucks. I still hoped he would come around by Christmas or New Year and want to be back with me and ready to work on it. I love him still and want this to work but I’m afraid of his temper. He drove for an hour to “talk” to me when I have asked him to leave me alone and called so many times.

If I get an AVO it will do nothing. The police are a joke. I have my appointment with the legal aid person on Friday this week to let me know what to do with the AVO. My IM's friend was murdered on Monday by her estranged husband. She had an AVO, they were almost divorced and she had a new boyfriend and a new life. He stormed into the fuel station where she worked, shot her dead and then went home and killed himself. AVO did nothing!

AVO's antagonise men in my opinion. They are a joke and a waste of paper and court time.

Sigh. I just wanted peace.

2M2L

I am so sorry! You don't deserve that. Didn't you say you changed your locks? Or did he break in?

I hear you about the fear. But from what I can see, if you wobble even just a bit, it just will make him even bolder the next time he tries to bully to get what he wants. As horrible as it is, this is the one time you have to be as mean and cold and uncaring as you can possibly be. And I hope you don't cave and let him have them for part of Christmas day because that's exactly what he's trying to do, wheedle a little here and a little there, until you are not getting anything you want and just keeping peace with him again.

I had to laugh, though (I'm sorry), when he said "I came in peace." What was peaceful about pounding on the door and storming through the house and shouting?

Do you think you need to go away somewhere with the kids for awhile so he will get the message? Or stay with your parents for the holidays? You can come stay with me in Texas!

2M2L, I am so sorry! I don't know if this is typical behavior of a WH, but I worked for years with men and women who were affected by domestic violence and what you described is very familiar to me. This is abuse; this is power and control stuff; this is crazy making (I came in peace after all those calls and banging on the door??!! Nope, not even close to peace!)
IMO, he needs far more than coming home to work on his marriage; he needs treatment to work on his control issues and until he does that, I don't know if I'd even consider R. There seems to be a ton of work there waiting for him to dig in to that has little to do with meeting his EN.
I'm not sure where you live, but please look into all the legal and civil supports that are there for you to protect you and the kids.
BTW, I have heard many an abusive man say that they would never have changed their abusive behavior without their partner calling the police and charging them. Sometimes that is the push that gets them to do the work to be safe....
BF439

Get the AVO. The police may be slow but he will be arrested and charged if he breaches it. Stop making excuses for doing nothing.

Thanks for the hugs and the posts.

I had a really down day yesterday but actually started to feel relaxed and ok last night. My Plan B was working for me so I guess WH started feeling out of control and angry with my Plan B!

Yes, I don't think anyone drives an hour, banging on the door upon arrival to come in peace...Merry Christmas!

I have my landmark forum seminar tonight and the kids are staying at my parents. I will turn my phone off after work and just relax.

Tomorrow WH has kids for a sleepover, pick up from my parents.

Saturday I have a Christmas party so the kids will be at my parents. I feel terrible about not being with them but I know I need some time to relax. I was angry with DD this morning when she had a tantrum about what not to wear. I was in a rush and after last night, fragile temper etc.

Legal aid can help me with an AVO on Friday. I am hesitant, but I do see your reasoning BK and I have given him one chance too often.

I will also change the front door locks, and ensure WH cannot get the locks changed again.

BF, I hope you're right and that the AVO and police will be the catalyst for change.

Whatever happens Catperson, my boundaries are set and I will not be the old me. I desperately wanted to call him last night and try to fix things. I didn't - I am getting stronger. I did offer sharing the kids for Christmas Day a while back so I would not be backing down. I will see what IM says.

I am waiting too to hear back from my IM - I think she will try to talk to him today. It certainly proves that you need a strong IM and I was right with my first choice. No offence to my sister, but she is a lot like me!

2M2L

Please listen to BK and bestfriend. This really is an abuse and control issue. One of my sisters and my best friend since high school have experienced DV and controlling behaviors that were threatening. My sis didn't experience physical blows, but my bf did.

From your own words-this is the behavior of a controller: 49 times??!!

He is using your DD as a tool to control you-letting you know that HE has the POWER.

He wanted to keep you WHERE he wanted so he took your escape route-your keys.

Interesting that your dad showing up got him to switch his anger off. But then again, your dad is a male who he can't intimidate with his tantrum or threats.

Then he blames YOU for his behavior like some pouty seven-year-old.

Please realize that this isn't just anger about Plan B. This is about controlling you.

All fair points Johnstwin. I know that KaylaAndy and Catperson and more have been trying to help me see this for a long time.

He was super mad at my terminology in the KaylaAndy Plan B # 2 letter last week. He said I made it all into his fault and blamed him for everything. Earlier this week with his desperate "suicidal" moments, he agreed that he does intimidate and anger and control and understood that I have been reacting to him and I wasn't like this before.

I am waiting for my laptop to be fixed so that I can read "Why does he do that" which I bought as an e-book but can't print. It's so frustrating!!! Seemed like a good idea at the time!

I want to see if he can be "fixed". I don't know the correct term. I hope that he/me/our family will be one of the lucky ones.

I think the proper term is "rehabilitated."

But after his behavior...I wouldn't wait around for his rehabilitation.

I can't say what I would have done (because I have never gone through that), but I suggest you DOCUMENT his threats and all of that.

Document his suicide "threat."

Document his behavior over that whole issue with your daughter,
etc, etc, etc.

This can only help you in the long run--documentation, that is.

Either Plan B is working, or...well, I don't know.