We've been married 6 years and together for 8. Anniversary was in August and he spent the day with his "best friend", her, not me. They met in June and have been inseperable ever since. WH 38 and she is 20. They are in music and apparently are the same kind of people and he loves her like a sister etc. Had a EA and PA when I was pregnant with DD - felt I had trapped him into having a baby too soon and blamed me. I did not hold him down, spent 4 months ttc and he was loving whole time. PA lasted 2 months, EA 6 months. NC since mid 2005.

Current best friend - after 2 months of 10-15 secret phone calls all day and night for up to 3 hours a day (have phone bill for proof) and one trial separation of 10 days, he left me last Monday because I was trying to control his friendships etc. Thought it very unfair that I had abused his trust and looked at his phone bill!

They are working together in a new band and there is potential for a lot of money. As he thinks it is just a friendship and I have completely overreacted, he wants to keep working with her.

He did admit after our second MC session that he called her too often and has admitted to friends that he took it too far and wants our marriage to work. He honestly thinks that because the friendship is not sexual and never will be that he is doing the right thing by me and marriage.

EXPOSURE: I phoned his "best friend" Monday night when he left and demanded she cease all contact and that their friendship was completely inappropriate and destroying my marriage. She crumbled, cried, agreed to back off, said there was no romantic interest etc. I believe her. She tells me she is a virgin etc and not romantically interested in my husband!

I kept up with the tsunami of truth and called her mum on Tuesday. She was horrified and agreed to help me break it down etc and would support me. Said her daughter is a terrible liar and had confronted her about their friendship before and believes it is not sexual. She lives at home and my WH has been there a number of times - news to me - I knew of one occasion.

I emailed the best friend to enforce that she cut off all ties with my husband and quit from the band etc. Her mum called me to say that I was threatening her and her dad has cancer and this was all too much. Best friend called my WH to tell him about the email etc. He called me and was livid. Her mum sent him a text message saying they loved him, thought he was great support for their daughter and sorry he was going through a rough time.

I also called his boss of the band, one other band member, his mother and his brother. His boss of the band was extremely supportive of us and said that WH wants to work on marriage but does not see a life without Best Friend.

I emailed WH on Friday - see below. Not full plan B, but 180 during plan A.

He was thankful that I had apologised and appreciated what i said but livid that I wanted him to end his friendship with BF. He did not talk to kids from Thursday night to punish me. DD was so hurt and cries for daddy all the time. Not sleeping well and distressed at daycare.

He did come to house on Sunday night to see kids - went to park, had tea, played etc. DD was so happy and sweet for the first time.

Plan A/180 in full steam until his brother called him and abused him for threatening me to leave his friends and band alone as he had done earlier on Sunday. (I called his brother and left a message in tears) He hugged and kissed kids and left.

Cancelled MC on Monday morning and told me he needed to pick up a bill with his name and address on it last night. Vistited house and again threatened me to stop calling his friends and band etc and back off or he will start causing problems with my job. He wanted a full apology from me and then he would see what was left to save.

I caved to get him back on track. He has narcissitic personality characteristics (undiagnosed) and I think that the usual MB tactics were antagonising him to the point where I was really scared and breaking down all chances for us.

I sent a text message aplogising for interferring with his work and friendships and telling him that although it hurt, I understood that he cannot see us working out. I told him I would stop trying to save marriage but asked if he could see the kids as they need him so much.

30 minutes later he sent a reply to ask me to attend MC with him again - he said he's not sure if it will work, but he wants to try. I told him to make the booking and let me know when it is.

Ok, so in review, I've done the wrong things over and over. I do not intend to take him back into our home if he does not admit the hurt he has caused by his EA. I want him to pull back the friendship to a casual/colleague one, and I want to be his best friend again, not her. I want ongoing MC to build our marriage into something amazing.

I know he is in the fog but I think we are back to an even playing field with no need for him to be angry or retaliate (MAJOR goal, he gets so mad), and hopefully time for him to soul-search and heal. he is staying in a city backpacker place so no permanent lodgings. Does look like he is opening a separate bank account though.

I am confused, hurt and grasping at straws. How am I going? What should I do now?

My dear WH,

I apologise to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your emotional connection with BF possible. I foolishly pursued my career and kids without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me most, and we are now both suffering for my mistake.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your friendship with BF once and for all.

If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, you can still call, email or text me. I think it might be better to avoid speaking about our relationship unless it is in the presence and with the guidance of our counselor until we can communicate our issues without fighting and hurting each other.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your friendship with BF, and I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing that you still need her and see her as part of your life. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing BF.

With my love,

BS


Thank you to the poster of the original letter. It gave me an amazing platform to work from when I have been unable to form my feelings into words.

Welcome to marriagebuilders. Glad you have found us.

Was your husband EVER a good husband and father? He doesn't sound like it.

Are you going to do the MB plan or your own plan? Plan A should be for about 6 to 8 weeks, and then Plan B.

He has actually been an amazing husband and father. He looked after our daughter as the stay at home dad for 1.5 years and our son for 3 months followed by 2 days a week until a month ago.

He has always loved me and placed me on a pedestal. My fall from grace was a lot further when I became distant because the relationship before and after the first A was amazing. He calls me his rock and when I became less of that the dream shattered

He cleans the house for me, looks after kids, supports me and loves me.

After A I became more controlling and wanted to police everything to protect myself. I guess you can only handle living like that for so long.

Sorry Believer, I missed a question.

I want the MB plan. I waiver and thought I could read other posts and get the advice I need but realised today that my story needs it's own post. I haven't been consistent with Plan A.

I cannot draw strength and clear advice from other people's posts when I am sinking on my own ship.

Well, you are responsible for half of the marriage, and he is responsible for the other half. But he is 100% responsible for his affair, and now he is having a second one.

Does he work or are you the main wage earner?

I'm the full time earner. He works 3-4 times per month in a band at night. The rest of the time he writes music and produces his own CD's. He was producing a CD for her when they met. Hours/days in our home studio

Wendy,
His actions not yours are the reason that you are not secure. You did not do this, he did! If he cannot handle what happens when he cheats on his wife then he should not cheat on this wife.

DO NOT take ANY responsibility for his AFFAIR.

My husband had an EA 6 months ago and I am still 'policing' him and will continue to until I feel secure in our marriage. My H understands this and knows that until he walks the straight and narrow and I can trust him again, I will check up on him everyday. If he did not understand this and know that this is what it will take to get us through this, we would not be together.

Thanks JoJo. How did your husband get to the point of understanding that it was an EA and not a friendship?

My WH is in denial and thinks she is a best friend + nothing sexual = NOT AN AFFAIR

It hurts but he doesn't see what it has done to me. I have lost 20 pounds in 7 weeks through tears and inability to eat. I eat with the kids but the same amount as my 3 year old.

After exposure he has been textbook as far as saying I have gone too far, if it wasn't for x we would be y already, he can't love me after this, I've gone too far, everyone thinks I'm crazy and a psycho for doing this etc.

You need to realize that an EA is just like an affair. All the things he is telling you are justifications for his awful behavior. Ignoring his children, blaming you, all par for the course.

Take care of yourself and do a short Plan A. Then you will be ready to do Plan B.

He's opening his own bank account - right now. He said that he is sick of me calling him and asking did you spend x etc. I said I am guilty of being too controlling and am sorry but he did ask me to control the finances and the budget and expenses form a part of that tight ship.

I said he needed to arrange child support and mortgage payments to me because we could not survive without his money.

He's not happy. Told me this is all fxxk'ed up and my fault.

This hurts so badly. It's our first separate accounts since we bought the house together before we married and I feel like crying again.

Is this another set back?

Wendy,
Unfortunately, my H didn't realize until after he contacted the COW again (4 months after DDay 1), when he had said he'd have NC with her, then he lied to me about talking to her.

He contacted her on a Friday, after I had an emotional meltdown on Thursday night. After talking extensively, a lot of tears, etc, he came to the realization that he 'needed' her emotional support after a 'difficult' night with his emotional wife. He again talked to her about what 'he thought', what 'he feel', how 'he didn't think he could take it much longer', blah, blah, blah...

What he didn't know was that I have a key logger installed on his laptop so the entire instant messenger exchange was recorded. I did not see it until Saturday night, after we had gotten home from a family wedding. Needless to say it was not pretty when I asked "Have you talked to D@@n?" and he said "no". I lost it. AT that point he proved to me, that he would contact HER knowing how bad he hurt me and that he WOULD lie to me.

I truly think that he did not see them as anything other than 'just friends' until the light bulb went off that weekend. He now see's that it was so much more than 'just friends.

Your H sounds like someone that is in a FOG, that is trying to protect the A. I'm sorry that you are in the same situation. And the best advice I can give you is to follow the MB ways. Get advice from the 'old-timers' they're great. And also, no matter what, follow their advice even when you do not think it's the best way. IT ALWAYS IS

Thanks for your reply and your honesty JoJo. I really appreciate the insight although it makes me sad to face reality too.

WH called last night to talk.

Good news is that he will be doing a personal development seminar all weekend and our mutal friend thinks this might really help him focus, stop all lying and dishonesty, find empathy for others and also stop blaming people for things in the past, make peace with it, find closure and move on. The timing is perfect and he is open to change because this was his decision.

He said that we have a wonderful history together and he wants to try and get "us" back but is finding it difficult to see the woman he married. He doesn't want pressure of losing his marriage to rush finding himself and get back on track, but understands I will not wait forever.

He said if he was me he would have been devastated by the over use of his new "best friend" too and acknowledged that the phone calls and secrets etc were over the top. He still wants her in his life as his best friend and thinks that a marriage is different and should not be to your best friend. I obviously disagree entirely here but this is a marathon and not a race. Too much fog!

I really feel that there is a chance to get everything that I want if I am patient and don't push him. (sounds like PLAN A). He might have found MB himself as he said the path to win back his heart and love me is to be nice to him and not treat him like a client.

He is coming to see the kids tonight and have dinner with us so I have an opportunity to do a great Plan A.

Do you have any advice for me?

He is here sitting on the couch with me now. He came home tonight to see the kids at my request, took our DD for ice-cream and to pick up a dvd and put the kids to bed.

So, we are sitting on the couch together, eating chips and on our respective laptops.

I know that pretty soon he'll jump up and go "home" to his backpackers 4 bed accommodation and I'll be sleeping alone tonight.

I want to stop all LB's and focus on his EN and try to turn this around.

He told me that there is no room for the weekend seminar for him. I am praying so hard that they can find a place for him. We really need this, even our MC agrees with me on this.

Pray for us please and comment if you can. I would love some advice from experienced MB's.

Thanks
Kerri

Kerri,
What does your MC say about this 'relationship' with the OW? Does he/she agree with you that your H's relationship with the OW is an Affair and not "Just Friends"?? If your MC doesn't see anything wrong with your H having a best friend that's female, I'd highly suggest finding another MC.

The MC my H and I go to is a Dr with a Phd that specializes in relationships. While he doesn't totally follow the MB ways, he agrees and practices a lot of them, including that any kind of relationship out of the marriage with a person of the opposite sex that is not strickly business related is WRONG!!!He's been great for both of us. I also picked a male MC because I know that my H is one of those men that takes being told that he's doing something wrong better from another man than from any woman. It's the cave-man in him I think

My H has always thought (we've been married for 18 years and I 'used' to be his best friend and am working back to that title)that it was OK to have friends that we female, that you ccould joke with, talk to, hang out with at work, etc even though I have always told him how I found it disrespectful and bad for our marriage.

After a year of being "Just Friends" with that COW that he worked with, the 'friend' that I never knew about, and about 4 months after DDay he realized that it was not a "just Friends" relationship but an EA when he contacted her again (4 months after NC was established) and discussed how he felt, discussed me, things that I had said, the state of our marriage etc, then lied to me about contacting her. (I have a key logger installed on his laptop that until that day he did not know about)

After that he began to see that his "Just Friends" relationship had been sucking what little emotional energy we had in our marriage right out. He was giving HER all the emotions and there was none left for me and out marriage. That even knowing how bad his A hurt me he still contacted her.

In the mean time, I would Plan A him but do not let up on the 'policing' no matter what he says about it or you. If you stop then he can do whatever he wants to and you will never know.

Thanks JoJo.

Our MC seems great and uses the IMAGO principles. I think it will really help us to reconnect emotionally etc. As far as his opinions about the "friendship" with OW, we have only had 2 sessions, WH cancelled last week when he left the house. The MC told us that trust, respect, communication etc are essential and he asked WH if I could ever be his Best Friend again. WH said no, OW is that now. MC is on my side, but understands that my WH is so stubborn that only time will work to change him, not pressure.

He left last night quickly after about 3.5 hours with me/us. I asked him to have a look at two new dresses I had bought. Actually, I knew that the dresses looked fabulous on me and after losing 20 pounds and with a new spray tan, I looked seriously hot. I had on some sexy underwear too. I guess I was hooping for SF, but no. Instead he was very complimentary about my body etc and quickly jumped in the car and drove out. No contact since.

He didn't mention the OW at all or our R.

I am at a loss about next move. I called him this morning to be happy and excited about a work function this weekend. It's the footy grand final in Melbourne and a massive event for Australia. I work in media and it's in a corporate box, celeb heaven, just the stuff my WH loves. I wanted a chance to sound happy & content not gloomy and sad. Got his voice mail and smiled the whole time leaving the message and sounded chirpy.

Still praying he'll get a spot for the forum this weekend.

Uh uh. No way. Nix. No How

sister - You have done nothing wrong.Your WH has cheated - twice, and you are bending over backwards to appease him.

You really need to aknolwedge the reality here - that this man is sick. Sick. sick. you can not fix that. you can not keep avoiding the truth, and avoiding all conflict, in the hopes that if you keep tip toeing around, on one foot, with a painted on smile, your hair done up, wearing something slinky and sexy, that he will finally agree to come home.

of course, if you forget to smile one day - he will find another BF.
or, heaven forbid, if you should get the flu and can't play the role of perfect wife, woman, mother, then of course that will be all your fault, and he will be free to find another BF.

you know he is feeding you a load of crap, right?
I know you are scared to lose your H, and the kids Dad, but you do realize that he is feeding you a load of crap, right?

As a good friend once told me, he can crap in your cup all he wants, you don't have to drink it.

Ok, if you wnat to do something. try this:


don't invite him! invite a girl friend to go with you.
Just tell him that you totally understand his need to "find himself" so you are going to leave him alone. and you did try to call him this morning, but he did not answer. So, anyway, you and your friend ____ are going to be at the event this weekend.(do NOT take another man with you-find a girl friend)

If he wants to fidn himself, then by all means let him. But that does not mean life will stand still waiting for him. The kids will continue to grow, and you will continue to have freinds, and go to work functions.

he is a 38 yer old man who claims that he was rushed into having a baby? Are you kidding me? He works 3-4 days a month, you pay all the bills, he moves out so that now the two of you will have even more bills, and yet he wants to have his own checking account so you can't control the finances? Huh??? That man was darn lucky to have you.

I better stop now.


Ok, one more thing. Get your own account. Do not allow him to have his own account AND acces to yours. He needs to feel the reality of his single lifestyle.

Thank you womanoffaith5.

You sound SO MUCH like the voice in my head that I try to ignore for fear of rocking the boat. I do walk on eggshells and tiptoe around and if I am ever less than perfect...you know the rest!!!

I am really scared to lose my family and hope that he will change. I cannot go back to how it was and will not. If my marriage is not 100/100 and without other BF's, then I don't need it and don't want it. I think there is better out there but am not willing yet to make the leap of faith without trying to fix things, for me and the babies.

I did change the internet passwords for the bank accounts and I did ask him for money the other day, which he gave me, for kids and house etc. He still has a credit card but I have been monitoring it and he is not using it at all. The Landmark Forum is the event he is trying to attend this weekend and it promises pretty big things. It may be the thing he needs to get over it and grow up!

Great advice about the weekend event. I will go without him and have a fantastic time, camera in bag, for great fun shots of life on my own and then post them on facebook!

Go and have a wonderful time and take lots of pictures. Then tell him you missed having him there.

Continue with Plan A for a few more weeks.

I did as you suggested and sent WH a message from the game that read "Hey you. Wish you were here".

He said that it was a really great message and rang me after his seminar that night. The Landmark Forum is fantastic and has really opened his eyes. He has put the past in the past and is working on his ethics and integrity!!! I believe there is a really great chance for us now.

He invited me to his graduation last night and I signed up for my own course in 3 weeks. He really wants me to do it for myself and I know that it will help me stop the LB's and become a wonderful person again.

I had a terrible depressive Sunday but I feel great after my intro session of the Landmark Forum last night. It's a life-coach concept that helps you target the problems, work on them and improve your life.

I really hope this might be the platform that gets us back on track. He is so different already. He had withdrawn so much but the lights are on again now and he's getting happy and he's even happy with the kids and me again. He wants to make us his priority even whilst we're separated. He's looking for work and focussing on himself.

In his words, once he has integrity he will be able to make me promises and stand by them - he can't now. He also knows now that grudges don't work, the past doesn't matter and he will never again make a decision whilst he is angry or unclear.

He doesn't get mad at me for expressing my feelings and understands we interpret things differently and apologised for how his friendship looked to me and how it has hurt me. He also understands that I became so possessive because of this.

There's more, but it's just nice to breathe again and hope.

He came over last night to have dinner with us and spend time with the kids. He is so attentive to them now and didn't get out his laptop or get distracted by anything. He gave them dinner and a bath and cuddled and played with them.

We watched a bit of tv together and then he agreed to a back/neck massage for me as I have been having lots of neck problems.

We chatted and he massaged me for about 30 minutes before SF. He was attentive to me too and different. He talked to me and explained some feelings which he had discovered about me and SF and it was really special.

We chatted after that for another hour in bed. It seems that I am fulfilling his EN and SF and it's a lovely feeling. He said that he needs a lot of time to be able to offer me the kind of marriage I deserve and he doesn't think I will wait that long. I told him that I never want our old marriage back and that I have no intention of pressuring him back into the marriage. He genuinely thanked me for that.

He kissed me when he arrived and he kissed me when he left. He calls me pet names and called me to say he had a really wonderful time with us and it was fun. Later that night we chatted and he was feeling down. I think that I have almost become the lighthouse whilst he is in the choppy waters as posted in another thread.

It feels like this is my best shot at keeping my family together. He loves me, loves spending time with us and misses us when he's gone. I don't pressure, argue, complain, control, manipulate or bring up his best friend. I don't think that's going so well at the moment because he is talking to me a lot more. Plan A rocks!

I am hopeful that someone will post a comment for me and give me a little bit of support...

He drove past my office yesterday when I was walking out so we went and had coffee and hung out for 2 hours. He came back home last night to see the kids but it was different between us, strained. I am struggling to keep up plan A when there is very limited love and concern back and when I know that he is living out of the house as a free man. He left at 8:30 after packing the car discreetly, putting some dirty clothes in the laundry basket, quick peck on my cheek and literally ran out.

The laundry made me cry this morning. I am not his mother!!!

I don't know if he will stay faithful to me and I don't know what is happening with the Best Friend. I know there has been contact and his eyes lit up when her name was mentioned yesterday in relation to the band.

I feel hurt and very alone. I wish that he would face up to his responsibilities and come home, but it is much too late for that. He will continue on hischosen path now to find himself and what he needs in life to make HIMSELF happy. I have no doubt that he will lose me along the way.

We have 2.2 months of agreed marriage counselling to go before we are free to go our separate ways following our 3 month commitment to not make decisions about our marriage. So, I have until New Years Eve to put up with cake eating and make plan A the best I can before going dark into plan B.

Still hopeful, but struggling!

wish I could be there to make you a cup of tea and put an arm around your shoulders!!!

You are clearly a very kind, loving person, who wants to do what is best for her family.

I am afraid that this man is feeding you a line of crap!


Ok, here is the thing. You NEVER work on your M by living in seperate houses. This is not a dating relationship where you are trying to decide if you are right for each other. Those days are past. He made the decision to marry you. You had children together. The times of living seperate are over.

Living seperate is just a very good way to continue to do whatever you want to whomever you want. I think you know that all ready. If he really wanted to do the right thing for you and the kids, he would be there for you. In the same house.
what if you suddenly decided to take off and find yourself? To attend a few seminars and live in an apartment by yourself until you felt like you could finally be the W he deserved? What then? would he move back into the house and take care of the kids?

I hate to see people hurting - and I can feel the pain in your posts. But this man is walking all over you. He comes by for a day, massages your back, whispers sweet words in your ear, and then openly admits that he is not sure he can be the H you deserve. If he were at all sincere, he would have moved back home right then!

So you had a really big high over the weekend, followed by a bigger crash. And that will continue as long as you let it. You need to become strong enough to finally say "enough. Please do not come over here unless you are ready to move in, full time, and committ to me, full time. No more "BF", no more excuses. Just you, being my H, full time." and when you are ready to say that-you will need to follow through. 100%

He will treat you like this, as long as you let him do it.
And each time, he pulls the scab off of your gaping wound.

I wish I could kick him in the shins for this.

I am certain that he "wants to be a good H" because he does not want to lose you. But he also does not want to lose his freedom, his ability to have as many "BF's" as he wants. Love involves sacrifice. Marriage involves sacrifice. But you are the only one making those sacrifices. If he is not able to do that, then you need to let him go.

Some people will never grow up. They will just feed you enough scraps to keep you strung along for a very long time.

You should read "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson. This book talks about how a H may feel trapped in a M, and what to do about it.

Hello TM2L

I have been following your story with interest because we have a number of things in common.

My story is in essence the same as yours and not unusual I am sorry to say.
It is the classic story of a 38yr old man who ,after all the excitement of fathering two children feels marginalised ,trappedand and bored. It is the story of a thrill seeker looking for a high who decides not just to stop the clock but to travel back in time and become 21 again. All fun and no responsibility.That was my h. At that point in our m he met a 23 yr old and then proceeded to cake eat in secret for many years before I found out. At least your h is telling you what is happening in his life so you are well informed and hopefully well armed

There are many similar stories here on MB. The whole situation is well documented and the behaviour starts to form a pattern where all the WH seem to fuse together and become as one .This is the benefit of the MB system.

The techniques for dealing with the situation are well tried and I would encourage you to grit your teeth and stick to the advice you will receive here. At least you can say you tried your best for your family.Keep posting to get some perspective on what constitutes a good plan A.

I like the way your h describes you as his rock. I took that role in our relationship and for what is worth we are still together. If you are a rock then OW is a marshmallow, soft , sweet and if consumed in excess can make you very sick As my h described the cake he had eaten his family were the cake and OW the icing .The Icing being an optional extra plus all of the above .Keep working on your rock like abilities, above all dont turn into a marshmallow its so easy to dissolve and give up.

P.S . I will be looking out for your posts . I am in OZ . Sydney northern beaches So spare a thought for MANLY Sea Eagles in the RL grand final tomorrow.

By the way do you support Hawthorn or Geelong?

Oh no! Not his dirty socks.

I think that by accepting this "gift" it sets the tone to walk over you. Hand these back to him without washing them. Just explain nicely that a gentleman does not do that sort of thing when courting a lady!

Don't even get upset, he's just taking a fat chance. Don't rise to the bait.

Thank you WOF5 for cheering me up!!! I would love to have a cup of tea with you and truth be told, could really do with a hug just after you kick him in the shins! LOL.

I will take it a day at a time, knowing that Plan B is the ultimate step that I will get to. I keep hoping that he will wake up and change his mind and my marriage will become wonderful...

Hi myopia. I laughed when I read your post (I don't feel so alone now!!!). My husband tells me often that he is really weird and no one is like him or has the same problems. MB has completely grounded me and kept me sane.

I went for Hawthorn on the day - there's something about the underdogs that I just really understand:) I spent many years in Darwin so am new to AFL and find a new team to follow every game!

I wish I read your post before meeting hubby today. He visited the kids last night and also today and I was not the rock. I was definately NOT the marshmallow either - maybe more like my old self. Yep, a few LB's in the mix just to sweeten the deal before he left tonight.

I was doing great with plan A but he pushed one button too many and I jumped out of the car and walked off, leaving him in the passenger seat and the kids in the back whilst I cried on my own for 5 minutes. I composed myself, got back in the car and then he wanted to visit my parents and show them the new car! We dropped by and my parents were so happy that we were together that they didn't notice the tension!!!

On reflection, he has been getting really comfortable with us all again and I think he was digging for a reason to justify not being here. Plan A was working!

Anyway, we've spoken on the phone since and he still blames me for treating him so badly for the last 12 months, like today's outburst, but hey, I really have been trying. I know that he's noticed, I know that he's been warming to me again, but I know he is lost and confused and it's one step forward, 30 back.

He pays for another week's accommodation on Saturday's... Guess he's got his reason for another week.

Go Manly!

Hi Imagine!

LOL - I did ask him to do the rest of the washing with his shirt for me as it would really help take the pressure off...

It's still in the basket and it will still be there when he's ready to wash it.

Love the way you work.

It's a dark and rainy day in Melbourne and it matches my mood.

We chatted a few times yesterday. My daughter really missed him (they had seen him everyday for a week) and kept asking him to come home and tells him he works too hard. He thinks they are my words, but she's 3 1/2 and they are totally hers. I wish he'd understand that he's affecting the kids.

He told me he was really mad at me for arguing in front of the kids - actually, I jumped out of the car so that I didn't argue in front of the kids. He said it was unforgiveable to do that in front of them and just enforces the way I have treated him over the last 12 months. Ok. I was upset but I really didn't treat him badly. He was looking for something and ramped it up.

He also informed me that he will have a job soon and will put the money back in our account to cover his accommodation etc. I guess that's good, but part of me was happy we couldn't afford it and foolish enough to think he might just come home...

He told me that I am going back to how it was before - ie. calling too often and putting pressure on. Yes, I am back to feeling dependent on the sound of his voice.

I sent him a text message asking if he wanted me to tape a new show that he was interested in last night. He sent back "yes please thank you".

No more texts or calling last night. This morning it was raining heavily so I sent a text asking if he wanted a lift to my car park where he had been parking, about 20 minutes from where he is staying. No comment. I called 40 minutes later and he was ticked off because he had parked at his accommodation instead - I didn't know - but I stayed bubbly and light and wished him luck for his job interview.

I just keep on stuffing everything up. I really must not call or contact him again. The only way I make any progress is when he misses me and calls me, sees me etc. I need to remember that this is on his terms, not mine. It sucks. I love him so much but I am finding it harder to remember the good times.

Our counselling session is 2pm tomorrow. He has a band rehearsal with the BF on Wednesday night and a gig on Sunday. Great!!!! I am going out with a friend on Saturday night and he is looking after the kids. If I'm lucky, he will have good feelings about me before he catches up with her, but I am really worried.

What happened to my husband? He was coming back at the start of last week and now the evil person has kicked him out!

I spoke to our mutual friend today and he spoke with WH yesterday. He said that WH is still processing a lot and he helped him understand that he was blaming me that by making himself right and me wrong he was not moving on and focussing on the future. (in Landmark Forum speak). It was a short time after this yesterday that WH called me to settle things and move forward.

Our friend is an amazing support for WH and has really helped me too. He asked about the BF and he said that they don't see each other as much now as she is too busy with a new band. Time is helping here and she is not staying faithful to her BF in all of this when he is struggling etc. This is great for me!!! Marshmallows really do make you sick.

WH sounds really down today. He went to social security this morning but they are having trouble separating us on the system so he is not getting any benefits for another 3 days. They actually relocated our whole family to his new backpacker accommodation:) Perhaps there was a higher power at work???

Feeling stronger...

My friend at work encouraged me to choose 3 Angel Cards and they're lovely. I chose Passion, Spiritual Understanding and Hello from Heaven. Basically I should be choosing more from my heart and less from my head to get what I desire!

He dropped off my car park remote without seeing me and that hurt. I wish he would put the walls down so that I could plan A.

Not calling, not texting, just waiting.

He called tonight on his way to the Landmark Forum seminar and he was explaining a crack in the new car's windscreen when he hit a pothole and the run-flat tire indicator went haywire. He called back when roadside assist was there but not for long.

I called 30 minutes later so DD could say goodnight and he was waiting in the car whilst they fiddled with the tire. He was annoyed and I asked him if everything was ok. He brought up my jumping out of the car from Saturday. Hello, it's been 3 days!!!

I apologised, again, for hurting him and the children and said that I had made a terrible mistake and would work hard to make sure it didn't happen again. Mistakes happen but you need to forgive me and put it in the past like I have done many times for you.

Not happy, he said that he didn't want to talk about it and had to go.

I haven't heard anything since. I hope he went to his seminar tonight and that it clears his head. We have counselling tomorrow and the homework was to complete the form about our ideal marriage. Mine was all based around MB principals but I am guessing that IF he does his, it will be about freedom and personal space and ability to pick and choose own friends etc.

Oh joy, I can't wait till tomorrow.

No, no, no, no.

This is not what the MB plan is about at all.

Have you read the book, Surviving An Affair?

Get yourself up, off the floor, and quit being his doormat. Did I understand your post correctly? You are paying for his accomodations???

Sister, you need to stop that right now!! If your HUSBAND chooses to move out, and live as a single man, he needs to pay his own way. He is USING you.
That is not what Plan A is about.

In a nutshell, when a WH has an A, the BW takes a look back at the history of the M to see what may have lead up to the A. If the BW finds that there were times when she did not meet her H's EN very well, then she can show him, during plan A, that she has the ability to meet his needs. But you only do plan A for a short amount of time, and you do not contribute to his A by paying his rent!

You have got to get your strength back, and be ready to tell him that you love him, you want to stay married to him, but if he wants to be your H, he needs to move back home and start acting like a H. But you will no longer pay for his rent to live as a single man.

You got out of the car to have youreself a good cry? So what!? you do not need to apologize for this. You are going through a horrible time, and he continues to live as a single man!?! Darn it anyway, quit apogolgizing to him!! This man is abusing you,and you are apologizing to him.

the MB plan is not about letting him do whatever he wants, whenver he wants. It is about showing him how great your M could be (plan A) and then telling him that as long as he continues to have a relationship with the OW (BF) then you will not be able to be in contact with him any longer. Watching him continue his R with this OW is hurting you too much, so you need to seperate yourself from that, and allow yourself the chance to heal.

He is trying to make you into the bad guy here, by telling you that the reason he is not coming home is because you got out of the car to cry? that is a load of crap. He is telling you that was unforgiveable? BS!


I hate to be blunt here, but I am afraid that he has no plans to move back any time soon, and he is just looking for excuses to blame you. He wants to be able to say "I was going to get back with my W, but then she did something 'unforgiveable' so now I can't."

You really need to go into a dark plan B to protect yourself.
this man is mentally abusing you.

WOF5 - you are right. I am a doormat and I the more I think about my marriage the more I have realised that I have always been a doormat.

It's been easy for him to abuse me for the last 8 years in this way because I let him.

I have planned to do the Landmark Forum on 24,25,26,28 October. http://www.landmarkeducation.com/landmark_forum.jsp and I truly believe that after the intensive weekend, I will come out a stronger and more confident person.

Our marriage counsellor asked us for 3 months committment before we made any decisions and that brings us up to the end of December. Is it possible to go into plan B whilst meeting once a week for MC? I don't think so, but I am open to suggestions.

I have less than 3 weeks before my forum and given that I have been the doormat in every relationship since I was 17, it will be a good time to break the pattern and take care of myself. It's bigger than my marriage today.

Yes, I have been paying for his accommodation. He promised to pay the money back when his benefits start coming through this week. He doesn't get it and thinks that it was my fault that he left therefore I should pay for it.

Deep down I know my husband is looking to blame me for not coming home and deep down I know that I am a good person who really does deserve so much better... I just keep on hoping that he will wake up and realise what he's throwing away.

He thinks we can have a friendly divorce and be friends for the kids and everything will be fine. Not in my world! I want a loving, committed husband and daddy for my children - whether it is him or not.

My WH just emailed me a Plan B !?!?!?!?

I emailed this to his boss/our mutual friend. I figure I have nothing more to lose - again, I have just lost my husband whom I love more than anything in the world!

It hurts me so much to see that he cannot see what is before him. If he really heard me, he would have heard me say that I deserve a husband who loves me and will be my best friend and put me first. He would have heard me say that I want that to be him and if he cannot be that person, then I will find somebody else for it is what I deserve, and he deserves to have that with his wife too - hopefully me.

I have told him that I want to spend my spare time with him because we used to be best friends together and share so many good times. When he became distant from me and found OW, I became cold and mad because I could not reach him. I never wanted to push him away, I just wanted to win him back. He was spending 15-20 hours a week on the phone to her and meeting her a few times a week at least, all in secret from me and all the while it was eating me up because I thought it was a full blown affair. He was never honest with me and still pushes me to accept that she, and others, as his best friend - although I am sure OW is number one and the others are just to throw me off and make it seem normal.

He thinks that I have become nasty and bitter with no respect for him and yet it is a product of how we are both treating each other. If he was home I would have an opportunity to love him and support him. Like I said, the 5 minutes + I hear from him or see him a day (if I'm lucky) is filled with me trying to meet his emotional needs and give him reasons to love me whilst he picks apart my conversation, body language and even unsaid imaginary conversations to find the negative and use it against me. None of my emotional needs are being met and I am working full time and looking after the kids, house, finances, bills and when it suits him, my husband. I really don't have much left to give.

I had no intention of writing him an email and calling everything off. I love him and want to create an amazing marriage together with equal respect and love for each other. I just want him to give me a chance and stop hurting me with his actions and words. There was no mention of him damaging my car and scaring me. He has a major anger management problem but never apologises for breaking things - it happens whenever he feels threatened but he thinks that's my fault and therefore I deserve it. He broke the large family photo of DD, WH and I by throwing it outside 6 weeks ago and never mentioned it, just left it out the back of the house in the rain.

It's like he is posessed by an alien. Where has my husband gone? Surely someone that loves me wouldn't be trying to hurt me like this? He said all the right things to me after the Forum but I am pretty sure it was just what he was told to say and not what he meant. I don't think he sees anything wrong with the amout of time he puts into his female friendships compared to the effort he puts into his marriage. He thinks that he can fall in love with me when we don't spend any time together and when he is living the single life with no responsibilities or restrictions on friendships or time or consideration for me. He said I am making this hard on him but I fail to see how someone who doesn't work and gets to socialise with whomever, whenever with no daily schedule has any real problems. I am the one who has been abandoned and I feel extremley hard done by and lost and alone and afraid and out of control and sad. He gets to call all of the shots and decide if/when to see me and if/when to communicate at all. I just get the left over time.

Now I don't even know what will happen. Maybe he just needed an excuse to be with someone else whilst unmarried, which he has clearly stated. What a perfect way to lead into an affair with someone guilt free.

I'm so sad and hurt and apart from not contacting him, I don't know what to do.

He said in our counselling session today that he just doesn't like me and I am very low on his list of priorities. Duh!

Help, please

Looking for advice and support please

HI Rocky

OK One day at a time

Firstly I think you need to change your tag line as you need help for the management of plans A and B. You need as much input in this regard as you can get .Maybe a direct request for help with this will bring more response. I cant help you there because I never had to do any of that.I just lived with the elephant in the lounge room and some really inexplicable behavior from my H.

As far as inexplicable behaviour is concerned I am afraid I am an expert .In his letter your H is trying to pin responsibility for all his problems on you. He isnt talking sense.I discovered that by trying to record in writing my h s arguments that he was really trying to blindside me into thinking every thing was my fault when it was all his choice

The best hope here I think would be an emotionally uninvolved third party i.e. your counsellor or good friend to talk to him

WOF has identified mental abuse. She is right. He is constantly telling you that there is something wrong with you .You know this not true at the moment but little by little you could come to question your own judgement.

The best information on this subject is a book called Verbal Abuse by Patricia Evans. If you go to Amazon.com you can see the book, read extracts and order it to be sent or it may be available in OZ There is also a web site related to the book with a similar forum to this at VerbalAbuse.com.

The book identifies that all the techniques used in abuse are geared to one purpose i.e .control of one person over another. There are many relationships which exist with an uneven balance of power it is not a healthy situation.

I don't think he will follow through with his plan B he needs you too much. He is punishing you for the fact that he is losing control of his life.I would say OK to his plan and leave the organisational details for him to arrange. Give him full control of the situation. It is my bet he will be back as soon as he needs something .The behavior goes in cycles he will have forgotten all about this in a couple of weeks----- but you wont that is the difference.

I am so sorry to see you having to deal with such an incredibly difficult set of problems however you are certainly not alone .You are not the first and you certainly won't be the last .The internet is the best resource for pooling our experiences our WHs all seem to have attended the same school .

BEST WISHES Keep posting

PS The party is still going in Manly

Thank you so much for your post and your message myopia.

I came home early from work as I look terrible and felt like I needed a break. I work in sales so time on the road is expected! I stopped at the library to pick up some marriage/affair/abuse/separation books but the pickings were slim. I did get one called "Fighting for your marriage" by Markman, Stanley and Blumberg and I hope it will help.

I requested the change to the topic as you suggested and thank you for helping me out and continuing to listen and support me. (It has changed - thanks moderators!!!)

I think you are right that WH is trying to blame everything on me and his family has a history of that. They can hold grudges better than anyone - his mother has not spoken to her brother for 30+ years and it was over something really silly.

Our friend is supposedly talking to him today but I have not heard from him. I know that he is on my side and is helping to balance the situation in WH's mind. I hope he will call me and update me soon.

I haven't heard from WH at all and have not attempted to contact him either. It's lonely but essential and I will give him full control of the situation as you suggested. At the same time I will regroup and focus on me and the kids and feel the calm off the rollercoaster for a while.

Manly did so well - but boy was it embarrasing for Melbourne!

He spoke to our mutual friend tonight who called me after that.

He is still really really really mad at me "for what I did yesterday", which I took to mean explaining in a non-threatening way that if we were going to work on our marriage it will only be when he is willing to put me first in his life, not last and that I would not tolerate him having a female best friend who got more of him that I do and that I said that if he didn't fill those shoes then I would rather find someone who would than settle for the marriage that we had!

So, he told our friend that he will not change his mind, will not have any regrets in x months from now and really means it when he says that he never wants to see me again etc.

Our friend told him that most people who go down this road live to regret it, (he said he wouldn't) and that he has to stop making me wrong all of the time and try and clear his head.

Our friend said it will be another 2 days before he calms down and that I should just have no expectations and live as a single mum with the kids doing my own thing. Agreed. I already feel better without worrying about what was going to happen.

He sent me a message seconds after he hung up from our friend which said "You gave me your promise that you would not contact anyone from my band or any of my employers again. You have broken that as of yesterday in contacting (our mutual friend)."

I did not respond. I never promised him that. But, if he can break his promise that we would be married for life and be faithful etc, then what's a conversation between me and a trusted third party! Our friend said the same thing to WH and said that I am my own person and he cannot control who I talk to. He also said that it was okay for me to talk to him and WH cannot tell him what to do either.

The house is a mess and I ate tea tonight for the first time in weeks. Hopefully I sleep well and tomorrow...well I'll just wait till then.

Any advice is welcomed and appreciated.

2m2l,

Well your WH could win a medal for gaslighting...

Your thread caught my eye becasue you seem to be struggling with what I had a real hard time with in the begining, which is to fine that perfect one liner or sweet sugestion that will make him change his mind. Sorry dear, it won't happen.

My thread ia huge and it's emotionally draining, but may be of help as the advice I got was golden.

2m2l focus on what you could change about you. Once I got that concept the rest just followed.

Sorry...forgot one point.

You are inevitably enabling the A by paying his rent. You need to stop this and he gave you the perfect opotunity to do so. He wants you to respect his letter, then start by not sending him any money whatsoever. (Open your own accounts, and make sure there are no joint accounts he can drain).

Thank you TMTS! I am up to Dec 07 in your thread and it looks like I will be reading for days - but I am a sponge for information at the moment and by looking at your signature, I believe it worked out it the end for you.

I will call the bank tomorrow and remove him from our joint accounts. Thank you for your suggestions.

I wish there was a one-liner that would break through. Wouldn't that be grand!

I also have an unread copy of Boundaries on my bookshelf which was a wedding present from our minister with The 5 Emotional Love Languages - also unread until last weekend. I can't believe I had the tools in my house!!!

The 5 love languages is one of the greatest books ever writen (IMO). I didn't "get" what my W was telling me.

BTW...there is much more than the 100+ pages of my thread, because along the way I was given links to some very good posts...so you got a long way to go.

I've never read anything on boundaries but it sounds like this is something you need help with. Very important side of the stick part of plan A (You will see the links about the carrot and stick of Plan A, it's a must read.)

My snooping got the better of me this morning and I was burnt.

He is still at the backpackers but in the back of the car there were rental application forms and properties for rent pamplets. I nearly had a panic attack on the spot and felt like marching up to his room and demanding answers.

But, I didn't.

I came back to work and calmly called the bank and cancelled his access to our bank account and requested for his visa to be cancelled too. They like to take 45 days, but I sent an email with my reasons so hopefully they come through. My mum works there too so that might help.

I guess the positive out of this is that the applications were unfilled and in the car. The rental prices of some of the properties were upwards of $800 per week and obviously way out of his league. Maybe a little reality check will be good at this stage as to how life after me will work.

I heard nothing again last night from him and still live in hope that he will crawl back and I will get to Plan A again.

TMTS - I saw in your posts that you were pushing your WW to give you information she wasn't ready for and I find myself falling into the same trap all the time. I keep thinking I am getting through and then I back up and offload all of my needs and wants and he lashes out and runs for the hills.

I hope I am not too late to save us.

I spoke to his mum last night and she wont even return his calls. She is mad at him for this but it was her example that he follows today.

My family know now too that he has called the plan B so I hope their support will filter back through again.

I feel so angry today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just now catching up on your thread. Sorry for the time delay!

I know that it must be devastating for you to read his words! Even though you wre planning a Plan B of your own, it must still be very difficult to hear that he does not want communication with you.

to me, it is obvious what he is up to here. That nice weekend you ahd with him? I am sure he was very sincere about that - he enjoyed his time with you as much as you did. But the next day, he probably spent time with the OW and it confused him all over again.
He started to feel that "addiction" that comes from having some young girl admire him. so he was right back into a relationship with her, and looking for someone else to blame. His excuses/reasons to blame you are ridiculous. Is a woman supposed to be 100% perfect, all the time, in order to "win" him as a H? Has he been 100% perfect, all the time? He is going to analyze your body language and then determine that you are not fit to be his wife? Is that in the M vows?

He doesn't want contact with you becasue it reminds him that what he is doing is wrong. Not that you tell him that he is wrong - but just hearing your voice, or seeing your messages, is a reminder of his guilt. He has dumped his w and children, and he knows it. The best way to salve the guilt, is to lock it up tight and ignore it.

He figures that by announcing to you that "as of today I no longer consider myself married" he is now free to openly date. I guarantee you, he was with the OW that night. He thinks that by announcing his mental divorce from you, he will be free to screw around, and his guilt will finally go away. But it won't.

Do not call him, send him a message, or anything. And PLEASE cut off all access to $$. I would suggest that you just open a new account for yourself, and start using it right away. You are not trying to punish him. You are trying to fill his wishes. He will come crying to you quickly when he realizes that he may have to get a real job to pay his own rent.

He says he will file for the D. I seriously doubt it. he would need money to do that, and he is not about to spend the money on something like that. in his mind, he is all ready divorced, so why bother with the paper work?

Make yourself a list of things to do, and then get busy.Get your own bank account. Love your kids. Get the book that was recommeded to you in the post above. Take daily walks. Drink more water. Do positive things for yourself, that will help to build your strength. Do not contact him in anyway. During this time, you are not just sitting back and waiting for him. You are still working on your M. But you working on it, by building up your half. You cannot build up his half - he is a very sick man right now. But you can at least build up yourself.

And tell yourself this - he is not the boss of you! You contacted a mutual friend, to talk about the ugly email he sent you? That is ok. You can talk to friends any time you want. Do not let him bully you any longer. You need to come up with your own plan for visiting the kids, and you tell him how it will be. You are the more mature person in this, and you need to form a plan.

another good book to read: Women Who Love Too Much

I have to tell you - I am worried about this seminar you are going to.
it sounds a little weird to me, and if it is giving your H the idea that his behavior is some how ok, then I think you need to stay away from it.

45 days for what?
Open your own individual account and do not leave any money in the joint account. If they will not cancel his access to the visa card, report his card as stolen. this is critical, because he is getting ready to charge his rent to your account. Do not pay for his apartment to continue his A. and get yourself ready - when he realizes he does not have enough money to move into his own place, he may come back and try to sweet talk you into funding it. He may say things like "I really do want to be a good H, I just need some time to myself, please give me $800 now, and I will pay you later." Be prepared to tell him that if he wants to move home,and be a H to you, with NO female friendships, then you would be happy to talk to him. But as long as he is living seperate, you are not able to help him out.

and prepare yourself - he is not planning to live alone. He wants to move in with OW. But he is going to tell everyone that they are just friends, and he can not afford a place by himself, because of what you did to him.

I have messed up really really really badly...

He was nice to me all last week which was convenient because that’s when we finalized the car payment and put the car in his name. It was literally the day after he had the car that things changed so I see now that it was a ploy to get the car. Now that the car is in his name he has 75k. I have a mortgage of 300k plus and he has the car with no money owing. I pay the mortgage so I am effectively paying for his bloody car too. If the money was in the bank my mortgage payments would be $800 per month less. I think he told me to do what I want with the house so that he can sell the car and keep the money and stick it up me. In his warped mind he thinks that is his just deserts. By the time I sell the house I would be lucky to walk away with a 50k deposit and then I would need to pay stamps anyway and end up owning more than I do now, IF I could even sell the house in this market. AND I have the kids, all of the bills including 2k plus a month for childcare, none of his income and no child support. I found out today that I get no extra benefits as a single mum – great news!

He can sell the car and use 75k to fund his lifestyle~!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'M SO MAD THAT I FELL FOR HIS EVIL TRICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bank called and Visa has been cancelled but it doesn't matter - he's got $75,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you were to file for D, wouldn't you get child support from him?

also, here in the states, when we file for D, both parties have to list everything they owe, and everything they own. If you were to file right now, you would have all the house debt that you owe, and he would have that $75,000 car that he ownes, so wouldn't he need to sell it and split the proceeds with you?
Just some things to think about

It would be well worth your time and money to sit with a lawyer for an hour or two to ask all these questions. That doesn't mean you would have to file righ away. But if you ask for a lawyers adivce, at least you wold know what your options are.

Thanks WOF.

You're kind words are exactly what I needed to hear and you have really calmed me.

I have printed your thread to re-read all day "Do not call him..."

A friend of mine at work said he will give me his lawyers details so I will make the call. I don't want to but I feel really exposed and afraid.

My WH does not have a regular job and does not declare all gigs so getting child support payments from him will be tough. Our mutual friend is the guy who writes the cheques for one of his bands so I might have an ally to help me there. Fingers crossed.

Thank you for your time and support. It is my life-line!

Good, now you understand why I jumpped on your thread. Keep reading as you are getting close to the part where the vets really start pounding it into me...until I got it.

He scammed you good, all you can do is learn from it.

Thanks TMTS - I am still reading now

I did sleep in between but logged on from work to catch up again.

It is golden to look at the work in progress and hopefully learn from your mistakes. I know, really know, that it must have been horrible to live through it, but I appreciate the insight and want to live and breathe as much of the good as I can.

Thank you for your gift

Okay, so I know I need to learn from my mistakes and gather my strength for the next round...

What should I do now???

If he comes back with a small request of me after x days of no contact, what do I do?

Is it still plan A?

He was going to look after the kids on Saturday night so I could go out with a girlfriend (that he disappoves of because she treats me like a doormat - ironic). I don't know if he'll come, try to get out of it, make a big deal about it, if I should make alternative arrangements like my parents and tell him not to worry etc or if that will annoy him more.

What do I do?

Plan A would be nice, I don't really like his plan B because it is all about him, but he doesn't know that I have cancelled his visa card and access to the money yet either so it probably will get a lot worse before it gets better.

Help!

I just got a call from the daycare centre where my kids are and a female deposited $1500 into the fees for me. They asked not to be identified and I burst into tears.

Times are tought but I'm not at that stage yet! I don't know if it was one of my sisters or my mum but I know that none of them can afford it either.

I guess I just need to thank G-d and keep praying. I will call them all tonight and try and find out who my angel is. It is a debt that I hope to repay someday.

My girfriend at work heard me crying after my money phone call and I told her why. She asked me to do her Angel Cards again. I am a devout Christian but I do like to pick them for the fun of it.

Today my past card was Clairvoyance for spiritual sight to awaken fully so you can clearly see Heavenly love.

My present card was Patience - your dreams are booming more rapidly than you realise. Still, they need nurturing and patience.

My future card was Counselor - you are a natural counselor, and many people benefit from your guidance and reassurance.

So, I think my spiritual awakening definately happened on D-Day but play A and B are helping give me clarity about me and my growth and destination; Patience sounds promising, maybe plan A and now NC with WH is actually working; and Counselor - well maybe I will need to the the counsellor for WH when he returns. He always said I was his rock and that he valued my opinion.

I know I can't really read too much into this, but I like the possibilities it opens in my mind.

Knowledge is power so it's a shame that I still don't know anything! Hehehe.

I took some time out today and got a spray tan. Losing 20 pounds and being tanned is something that WH loves. I am almost as skinny as the dancers in his band, well, maybe 15 pounds to go, but they are extreme waifs and I look hot. Nothing like seeing your favourite chocolates on the top shelf behind the wrapping and trying to stick to your diet!!!

So, a few developments. He sent me a text at 4.10pm announcing that our MC had contacted him and that he would continue with MC to be amicable for the children, not our marriage. He has started the paperwork for our divorce and agreed that we had to be separated for 12 months first, so he picked 4th August to be fair. And, he is mad at me for blackening his reputation with our mutual friend and the MC and asked who else.

At 4:40pm he sent me an email which he apparently sent to BMW to apply for a cadetship in sales.

Ok, so he will still do MC so that's a bonus and you just never know. The MC said that the condition is that neither of us make a decision to dissolve the marriage for 3 months, so WH must have agreed to that with him on the phone.

Paperwork - well, you have to be separated for 12 months before you file and you can do the research on the internet like I did so I think that's to scare me.

Who else - just those two people and your dad and your brother. I sent them both a letter today saying that you have asked for a divorce and even though I love him and want to work on our marriage and make it amazing, he said no. He'll find out about the letters soon I guess.

Credit card has not been discovered yet...

BMW cadetship - why did he send me this email? To brag that he is going to be fine without me and doesn't need me anymore or because I know it is one of his ultimate dreams and he wanted to share it with me.

All this being said, I have given WH nothing. I emailed the MC and told him I'm in. I want to save my marriage and I will do everything I can to save it.

That's 3 text messages and 2 emails from WH that I have not responded to since Tuesday night. It's only 6:30pm Thursday so a lot could still happen, but I am going to pretend for now that the cracks are showing.

Is there anything I should do now? How do I react to his text and emails and phone calls if/when they occur?

Please help.


In the counsellors office there was a Reinhard picture that he was really taken with and wanted to buy from the MC. He said no and I found one the States and can buy it and have it shipped here for $25. Bargain. My question is, do I save it for Christmas or do I give it to him when it arrives in a plan A gesture. He can't hang it at the backpackers, but I hope it will be a reminder of our marriage counselling so we never get to this point ever again...once we reach recovery that is. Maybe it will fill him with good thoughts and he'll be overwhelmed at my thoughtfulness and it will remind him of all of the lovely things I do for him. I think his EN's are Words of Affection then Receiving Gifts.

He just sent a message saying he's coming to see the kids and can I leave for 2 hours. I sent one back saying we were not home and I'd need more notice next time. Ouch

I said he could come but I'd be here as I have things to do. He said he didn't give a F.. they are his kids and he's coming"

Ok, PLAN A

It's a tough plan A. He is here and interacting with the kids but completely ignoring me. He will not answer me at all and is being really childish.

All the more reason to keep on keeping on with plan A. I just gave DD some biscuits to share with him and that's going well. He knows they came from me and that's cool.

DD can't read, she's 3. But, I got her a book yesterday from the library about when families change and get divorced. He keeps glancing at it and I am sure it hurts. Maybe only once.

Plan A Plan A Plan A

have you actaully read the book, Surviving An Affair?
I was totally confused about what your plan is.

You do not do "plan A, Plan B and no contact" all at the same time.
plan A and B are 2 totally different plans, and frankly, you are not currently working either one of them.

You need to get a plan. Right now, I think that you insist on
becuase that way, you at least get little scraps of attention from him. Scraps. That is all. And as long as you continue to say then you will open yourself up to situations, like a week ago, when you borrowed money against your house so he could have a $75,000 car. Remember how upsetting that was?
You will get into another mess like that, as long as you continue to flounder around, with no real direction.

PLEASE - read the book. Understand the plans. You are not fighting for your M right now. you are fighting for 5 minutes of attention from a man who is treating you like crap.

Plan A does not go on forever, and frankly yours is way past over due. But you do not go into Plan B by suddenly ignoring him either. Plan B starts with a well worded letter, explaning that you love him, you want to recover your M, but you can not continue to have contact with him. And then YOU spell out a plan for him to visit the children. Plan B gives him a clear picture of what a D would be like. In Plan B, you set up a visitation schedule for the children that would show him what to expect. A divorced father does not just show up whenever he feels like it. He has a schedule of something like "every Wednesady from 5pm to 7pm, and every other weekend. "

His agreement to go to MC does not mean anything. It is truly a waste of time, if he is still in contact with the OW (she is NOT just a casual friend. YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!!)

Other people are feeling so sorry for you that they are paying for your day care. That is awesome! But don't you see what is happening here? Other people are trying to help you to take care of your children, during a bad situation, just to get you back on your feet. And what are you doing to help yourself? Sitting at home waiting for 5 minutes of attention from a man who could care less right now. That is not healthy for you, or those darling children.

My sister, I am truly worried about you!! This current situation could go on for years if you don't stand up for yourself. You have got to gain your strength. Rally your support group around you.

I do not normally get all "preachy" with people, but as a devout Christian, you have got to stay away from those Angel cards. PLEASE. You are opening a door to the spirtual world, that should not be opened. the Bible is very specific about Tarot cards, fortune tellers, sooth sayers, etc. It says that when you consult one of these types of "spirtualists" you will indeed get advice from the spirtual world, but it is not from your past relatives, or angels. it is from Satans army, plain and simple. I know that stuff is very attractive right now, but it would be so much healthier for you to get yourself into church, into a bible study, into something positive. Take a stand here. Bring light into your life - not darkness.

Hi WOF, thank you for your message. I think I do need a kick!

He came last night for an hour, played with the kids and stayed mostly silent towards me. He read our DD the divorce book and I could hear in his voice that it was breaking him up. He stopped reading a number of times but she kept asking for it. Eventually he read it at the speed of light and then put her to bed and left. I was courteous and kind the whole time.

He looked for the BMW key for the new car. I told him that I didn't know he was coming and had left it at work. Inside I was relieved that there was something of the new car that I had that might make a sale harder. Oh joy!

My Minister called and we chatted about everything and I explained MB, plan A and B and our situation. We prayed and went through some things and he believes I need to focus on myself and control me and pray. He was going to try and call WH soon too.

Whilst I was talking to him I got a couple of missed calls and I got a message from WH "hope the kids are sleeping nicely. Was really nice to see you tonight. Have a good weekend. Call if you need any help and will the kids be at swimming tomorrow? Would love to come"

Followed shortly by "Crap. I nearly forgot. I was on your laptop going to check my email when DS bumped me and spilt a little bit of Pepsi Max on the keys. I started taking a couple of keys off to start drying it with the tea towel, they are in the top drawer. I'm pretty sure its all dry again though. Sorry, forgot to mention it through being upset about that Divorce book that DD had. Hope its ok. Your guys should be able to check it our for you. Mwa"

So, I was feeling really happy and thanking God for the good fortune to go the library yesterday, get the book and then DD wanted him to read it. A great reality check for WH, but...

Then the darkness came.

When I checked my laptop (it was closed) and there was pepsi all over it and through the keys, on the keys etc. I turned it upside down and about 1/4 can tipped out. The two missing keys were in the very back of the drawer where I would never have looked and he hadn't even attempted to clean it up. My take on the story is that whilst I was in the laundry, he opened my computer and saw the MB page I had open and read my posts, emails to mutual friend/his boss, cracked it and tried to destroy my computer. It doesn't turn on, IT dept said it is dead and will need to be completely replaced and now I am using someone else’s computer at work.

I struggled with what to do and calmly called him. He sounded really weird and really fake and said that it would be horrible if something happened to my computer because that is my work and it would be terrible if someone messed with my job etc etc etc. He kept smiling the whole time and eventually the venom spilled out and he said that I was affecting his job by talking to our mutual friend and I promised I would stop and now I could imagine how bad it could be. It went on and on and I stayed cool for most of it, but occasionally I made DJ's and LB's. I actually told him that it was sad because I really loved him and all I wanted to do was fight for my marriage. I repeated that everytime he said something nasty.

He also said he was really glad he had seen me tonight and had a good time because it made him less mad at me. He ended the conversation by saying he could not babysit on Saturday as promised because he was going to be really busy with something else. Sorry about that. And, he would see me in MC to work on our relationship to be amicable for the children.

Yep – totally screwed up and sick. He basically threatened me and my job and told me what to do including who I could/couldn’t talk to. I was in tears and called his brother to clean up. He disagrees with me for involving everyone but does understand his brother’s temper and I hoped he would calm him down. Less than 30 seconds after his brother called him, WH called me to ask me why I called his brother. I told him that he threatened me and could he please just leave me alone. He started laughing and said he never threatened me so I hung up on him and called his brother.

5 seconds later he texted me to say “Call me when you feel like having an intelligent conversation. I do love you.”

20 minutes later his brother called me and said they had had a huge yelling match and he wouldn’t call me or contact me anymore and that I wasn’t doing the right things. I told him about the finances and his brothers changing moods and his brother said to give up on the marriage because it was totally over and I just had to get over it and leave WH alone.

I sent a message to our mutual friend saying I would not be contacting him anymore and that WH needed to know that he could depend on him without my influence and I might call him in 3 weeks after my forum.

So I cried and slept and 1 ½ hours later, he sent another message:

”Its actually really sad that we have come to this stage. U could have fixed it but u persisted in making it worse as u still do. U couldn’t hold your tongue if your life depended on it. I do love u, I really honestly do. You’re my everything and I guess when it all comes down to it you are my best friend. In the back of my mind I guess I thought we could work again, that we could fix this and move on and be a happy family again. I act tough but I really wanted that for all 5 of us” He always wanted us to have 3 children and often talks of us as a family of 5 ”But now you’ve committed the only thing I thought you never would. You mentioned to my brother about the trouble you could cause regarding xxx. I never thought for a second you had it in you. So this is goodbye my beautiful girl. I love you. I always will. ARILY” ARILY has always been our special word for Always Remember I Love You.

WH referenced a thing that happened in our past that could get him in a lot of trouble with the police. We always agreed to never mention it again and I never have.

I worried that it was a suicide message and I tried to call him, no answer, so I sent the message “You are handling a really tough situation in the best way you know how. I did not mention that to your brother. I am sorry that things are so confusing between us.”

It’s now 10:50am and I have heard nothing.

WOF, I know you mentioned plan B and I am sure he will soon discover I have cut off the money supply and that I have written to his father and things are going to get much worse. It’s close to the bottom but nowhere near it.

What do I do? What do I say in my plan B letter? I'm scared of plan B because of my lack of plan A.

I haven’t read SAA. I did pick up a book from the library called After the Affair and I am currently reading Boundaries which is immensley helpful.

I am a willing student. I really want to save my marriage. Thank God I know this is not my real husband.

Should I cancel MC whilst on plan B?

I will not do any more Angel cards. I need all the light I can get. The Forum is okay. It has a good message and a colleague of mine has done it and she really got a lot out of it. It's personal development and setting boundaries which I need bucketloads of.

HI
Havent much time so to the point

Basically it is a battle for control of the situation and he is winning hands down he seems determined be in total control his only consideration at this stage is himself at all costs.

I am concerned about your financial situation and your rights as far as your assets and child maintenance are concerned.He has taken all the assets and left you with all the liabilities that is not only immoral but could be illegal.Find a solicitor.There should be free legal aid somewhere near you check the phonebook and get as many opinions as possible.

Good Luck and best wishes

Just read your last post you have been doing plan A for all of your m up until now where he makes it impossible to follow through.EVEN NOW HIS COMMUNICATIONS RECOGNIZE THE HUGE INPUT FOR THE GOOD YOU HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE M For me I could only say go to plan B but I am not the expert here

I feel like I am in over my head here!

I am going to pray about you tonight, on my way home from work.

the thing is, I think that your problem with your H is far bigger than just the typical M problems. I am really worried about you right now! He is threatening you - I don't care how he wants to try to sugar coat it - but this is an adult man, who is threatening you , and attacking your only source of income.I am fearful of him even coming into your home anymore.

One day he announces that he is done with you, will never speak to you again. then he sends a message about how that divorce book made him sad. Then he claims to have spilt a little bit of pop on the computer - when in fact he has clearly dumped half a can on it, and did not use a towel to try to clean it up.

You need to get together a support group for yourself, and tell them EVERYTHING that is happening. Your Mom, Sister, perhaps your pastor. No more conversations with his family members - no matter how sick your H is, and how poorly he is treating you, his blood relatives will still support him. You need your own support right now. and quit holding back the details, just so your family won't be mad at him. I think you have a serious abuse problem right now, but you are too close to it to see it.

For now, you are not in Plan A or B. If he calls, be polite, but do not get into a conversation with him. If he texts you, do not reply. if he asks why you are being quiet, just tell him that you need some time to yourself to heal.

Can you get into a counselor, by yourself, right away? Not the MC, but your own counselor. Is there a womens help line where you are?

You probably think I am over-reacting, and I hope I am, but I don't think so. I think that things are even worse than you realize, but it has been happening for so long, that you don;t even realize how bad it is.

How much have you shared with your pastor?

Are you keeping a journal? If not, please start one right away. Write it all down, for your own sanity.

I will be praying for you.

You are a valuable Gem. A loving, kind woman. You did not bring this on yourself.

One more thing - I am fearful of what will happen when he realizes that he can not use his credit card any longer. Please protect yourself!

Thanks WOF and Myopia for your quick replies. You are both wonderful and I am so thankful for your help and prayers.

I think the situation is worse than I realise. I am so in love with my H that I block out the bad and focus on the miniscule affection he throws me and it gets me through days and weeks.

You're right, plan A has been my whole marriage. I need a dark plan B but I fear that will antagonise him.

I did mention to him on the phone last night that I don't want him in the house anymore and I don't feel like it's safe because of the damage to our belongings. He was mad and said it was his house and he could come and go as he pleased etc.

I also said we needed to arrange visitation for the children and turning up unannounced was inappropriate. He complained about that too and said he'll take me to court for custody. I told him that will be fine. He abandoned his children and went for days without contacting them and he lives in a backpackers and it didn't look favourable. (DJ) He said that he is moving in with a group of friends...

I feel sick and tired. I don't know how to protect myself about the credit card. I don't know what to do. My parents and sisters are coming for tea so I will talk to them all tonight.

I think this has become my journal!

I went to lunch with two work friends today and sat in the sunshine and had some wine and chatted and relaxed. It was perfect.

As we jumped in the car to head to work I checked my phone and WH had called twice and left two text messages. One to say he had been offered a job and needed my advice. Second to say I obviously didn't care and was trying to punish him and if I didn't call him he was going to move in with his friends permanently and never come home.

Yup.

So, being the dutiful wife I called him and gave excellent career advice. I wondered why he didn't call his best friend for that - LOL

We chatted and I said if he really wanted to chat we could catch up for coffee. He agreed and picked me up. We had a really sweet time and chatted about us. He said that he should have been home by now but I had made it really bad so he couldn't blah blah blah but he did get some things.

Big mistake was when he said that there would be three of us in the marriage and then said, did I say that wrong? He was talking about his friendship with OW. I stayed cool and said that was not how I saw my marriage and so its a stalemate.

He wanted to walk to the ATM to see if his money had gone into his new bank account. We walked over, he withdrew $570 and GAVE IT TO ME AND SAID TO PUT IT TOWARDS THE FAMILY FOR HIS EXPENSES. You can imagine my breathing as I told him that he needed to hang onto it because I had cancelled his credit card and he needed the money. Yikes. We calmly headed back to the car and he did not talk to me.

I handed the money back to him as he dropped me back to work and he drove off. He called about 5 minutes later to say how nasty it was of me to mention that people who work on marriages go home and do not leave and how could I cancel the credit card.

He was getting a little mad...

I calmly mentioned that I was only following his instructions based on his email from Tuesday and acted in the best interests of the family. I am not sure when he hung up on me, but I called him back later and left him a voicemail calmly explaining why.

Needless to say when he called me later he was really unhappy with my explanation and said that because I cut him off he would cut me off and not give me any of his earnings and I could suffer the consequences etc.

Was I hurt or surprised by his reaction, no. I had actually expected it and thankfully prepared for it. He could hear the noise and asked if I had my family around and if they knew what I had done to him. I said yes and that they understood that I was acting in the best interests for the children and the house so that I would be protected because he told me to make my own way in the world.

He told me he just wants his wife back. He wants the girl from the coffee shop today and the woman that he made love to last week and the woman that he fell in love with, not this cold hearted b... who treats him so badly and is so unpredictable.

Like I said, all expected remarks.

He said that maybe his beautiful wife could call or text him later.

Ah, nope. It's too dark here now.

Sitting here quietly right now. He is at the band rehearsal with the OW till at least 11pm and who knows what they will get up to after that. Maybe he'll miss me?

I'll keep you posted. Tomorrow is kids swimming and I am out with my friend tomorrow night and mum and dad will have the kids for a sleepover.

It just gets weirder all the time. I'm actually relieved he knows about the money now. I didn't have to wait for THAT phone call. Now it's just the letter to his dad which he'll find out about on Monday. Oh joy.

He called last night about midnight to say that he wanted to give me $300 today to go towards the family and that he would give me all of the gig money and listed all of the shows he has booked until Christmas.

He said that he wants to do his part and that he wants me to do my part too. I don't know what that is yet but we'll see.

He is coming to swimming today and the kids will love that.

I love him so much. I really hope the divorce book that he read DD was the start of him changing. I know it affected him and I know that the apartment shopping and getting the credit card cut off has been a shock. It must suck when your actions have consequences instead of being given a soft place to land as I always do.

If you haven't read Boundaries - you should. It's fantastic.

So, we're off to enjoy Saturday and the weather is beautiful.

Well done!!!


Again, very well done!!!!


Just a thought - at some point, you should say to him, "H, I am afraid I can not sit here, and lsten to you beat me down any longer. I have made mistakes in our M, and will admit to that. I am willing to work on improving our M. But YOU have chosen to move out, on your own. And YOU have chosen to stay out. I will nto allow you to blame me for YOUR choices any longer. If you want to work on our M, then lets work on it. But I will nto lsiten to you beat me down any longer.

You need to take back your power.


Very well done.

I am not sure what the letter to his Dad is about - you probably sent that a while back. But here again, I would suggest that from this day forward, you should not deliberatley contact any of his friends or family members. I just don't think it has been healthy for you.

Please be very careful. Keep yourself surrounded by family and friends. I am still very worried about you. This man is clearly very sick right now.

Thanks WOF. I feel happy that I have done something right!!!

The letter to his dad was this week after WH announced the divorce. I sent a letter asking him to ring his grandchildren as he hasn't made contact with them in 4 months and never answers his phone. In the letter I summarised the letter that I sent to WH explaining my blame in the marriage breakdown and my willingness to work on the marriage if BF was out of the picutre.

I also mentioned that WH had insisted on divorce and no contact but if he wanted to committ to the marriage and stop relationship with BF that I would do everything possible to save our marriage because I love him.

I know it will anger him but his dad is the only one I did not expose to and I worry that his dad has been his safe place to fall because he doesn't know the truth. He has the truth now and what he does with it is up to him. I do not expect his support and I have not contacted anyone else from his friends of family since I called his brother.

I feel stronger and more able to set my boundaries and I have a lot more of the book to read.

If he wants to work on the marriage, I am here and more than willing, but I do not want to be kicked around by his indecision any longer.

"H, I am afraid I can not sit here, and lsten to you beat me down any longer. I have made mistakes in our M, and will admit to that. I am willing to work on improving our M. But YOU have chosen to move out, on your own. And YOU have chosen to stay out. I will nto allow you to blame me for YOUR choices any longer. If you want to work on our M, then lets work on it. But I will nto lsiten to you beat me down any longer."

That's golden WOF and I will read it again and wait for my opportunity to say it. I think it is just what I need. Thank you.

WOF - hopefully you'll be proud of me...

He came down to swimming to see the kids but he missed it as his car was blocked in at the backpackers. He sent me a photo of the car 3 back against the fence and called twice before swimming to explain.

I showered everyone and dressed our son first and walked him out to WH with some sausages for lunch for him. Lunch was arranged before I knew he couldn't make it. So, I paraded out in my bathers with the awesome tan and pert figure and passed DS over.

Back in, dressed DD and out for one last parade around in my bathers before running back to work on me.

One of the regulars asked me if I had had lyposuction over the 2 week break and that I looked fabulous. LOL. Glad I didn't have to tell her the real reason! The infidelity diet is great. WH later mentioned that he has put on about 40 pounds.

So, I put my little black dress on and quickly did some summer make up and left my hair damp and out. I looked really hot, not like someone's mother at all and not like I had been in the pool for 30 minutes.

He said nothing, but he looked!

Up to the cars and he gave me the key to the convertible and said he would drive the kids down to McDonalds cafe for a coffee. He loves seeing women in hot cars and tailed me the whole way down as I completely worked it.

We stopped for fuel and put fuel in each car. Now, I slipped up and paid for his as well. It was only $40 but it was the old me.

Anyway, we got some drinks and the kids played and it was all sweet and lovely. I returned a call to the friend I'm catching up with tonight and turned on the charm. He said, who was that. I told him and he asked if I wanted the car tonight. I said it would be great, we'll see. There's no baby seats in it!

He asked how money was and I said that I would be fine and just do my best to cover things. I said I felt relieved that he was going to contribute as that would take the pressure off.

THEN he passed over $300. Told me it was to cover some costs and he had JUST ENOUGH to cover accommodation and food. I said great and thank you. THEN he said that he needed me to put him back on the joint account because if he needed extra cash he would need to get it from our account because he is giving me all the money and needed access for emergencies.

I looked at him, stayed sweet and calm, and told him that I would love to put him back on the account but the only way that will ever happen is when he moves back home as my husband and I gave him his $300 back. I figure that I can do without it and the strings it came with!

SILENCE

I said that I may have caused a lot of problems that made him leave but it was his decision to stay out of the house and if he doesn't have enough money to cover his accommodation whilst we are separated then maybe he should consider his options.

He kissed the kids, told them he loved them and left calmly. But I could see the steam coming out of his ears!!!!!!

About 15 mintues later, true to form, I got a text message:

"I've tried and tried but no matter what I do or say there is no getting through to you or understanding you anymore. I'm stupid cause I always think you would see reason and be you. Seriously maybe we should look at selling the house. I just can't fight anymore and I'm through trying to hurt you."

I haven't replied. I guess he was hoping I would just roll over as per usual and let him have his way, again, and be me! I am sorry that my new boundaries to protect myself and my family are hurting his carefree and irresponsible lifestyle and I hope that by clarifying my boundaries, his actions will cause HIM problems, not me.

So, how'd I go?

WELL DONE ! BRAVO !! BRAVISSIMO !!!

You are a fast learner---- a page straight from the plan A manual.
Cool calm and collected .

His plan B did'nt last long.His plan A was even shorter. He is, however, still trying to intimidate you ,this time by threatening to sell the house-- probably not an option for him. I think I remember you saying the house is in your name but just as well to check out that eventuality

So if he is short of cash maybe ow can help out.

Best Wishes and keep up the good work

I've messed up plan A!

He is definitely feeling the heat and weight of his decisions.

I dropped the kids off at my parents for their sleepover and came home, got dressed and headed into the city for dinner with my female friend whom I've known for 10 years.

He texted me on before I left the house to ask if my mum had anything to do with taking him off the bank account. I wrote back no - the truth.

He called me when I was on my way in to the city and asked for the BMW key. I said that it was at work and I could not get it to him. He ramped up and huffed and puffed and I stayed cool. I told him I didn't want to talk about it as I was on my way out to dinner and we could talk about it later. He asked where I was going and I said I thought he didn't need to know. He said he wanted to drop in and say hi to my friend. I again told him it was inappropriate. He told me he was going to call my dad to tell him how unreasonable I was being and I told him to go for it. Sometime soon after he called me a mass of nasty words including one which also means very available and easy - if you get my drift.

I said I wished him a good night and I'm sure we'd speak later and hung up.

My friend and I spent 4 hours eating, drinking and having a wonderful time.

I left the city at 11pm and came straight home. I jumped into bed and had a foreboding that WH was going to contact me, but I truly thought he would come over...

I woke up but didn't know why, moments later at 12:45am my phone rang and it was from a private number so I hit silence and ignored it.

I heard footsteps outside my window and froze. I jumped up and looked out the window but saw nothing. Then...my bedroom door opened. I was standing on the other side of the room and I could make out a silhouette of my WH looking over at my bed. I absolutely stopped breathing. He closed the door and slowly walked back to the garage. I followed him out and asked him what he was doing as he walked faster across the neighbours lawn.

He said he was picking up some of his things but his hands were empty. I raced inside and shut the roller door of the garage. Moments later he drove into the driveway and opened the garage and tried to get back inside. I opened the door and said that it was inappropriate to be at my house unannounced. He said that he thought I was out anyway and that I had been picked up (my car was in the garage).

Anyway, he said he was hungry and needed some things. I said ok so he came inside and I followed him to the kitchen as he grabbed a bag and started to fill it with Pepsi-max. I said he couldn't do that as I had paid for them and he needed to buy his own. He threw the bag back and said that I obviously wanted him to starve now that I had cut off his money. I told him he had $300 today so I did not understand why he didn’t have money and I was not his mother and not feeding him.

He stormed back to his car. I was scared, angry, p-eed off, ANGRY and marched down the driveway to his convertible, roof off. He appeared to be texting on his mobile and I went into LB and DJ meltdown. He turned the phone away from me so I leaned over and grabbed the phone and asked if he was texting BF and if he was off to meet up with her. We both fought over the phone as I asked him why I couldn't see the phone that I paid for etc.

He fought back and told me I was crazy etc and that I had almost broken his hands and had broken his phone. I can't remember all the details but I was pretty wound up and scared.

Anyway. I said I had hoped he we could go and get something to eat or a coffee - he said no F'n way and I walked back up the driveway and told him to have a good night with BF.

He got out of the car, walked up to me and slapped me across the face and said he had waited 2 months to do that to me and it felt great. I ran inside, locked up and he took off. I called him and asked him why he came over and what he was trying to do and he said that he saw me at swimming with an open mind and wanted to come home but I had ruined everything and now he was moving in with someone and everything was over etc.

I can’t remember what else was said. I did say that I didn’t know him anymore and that I was sorry that he felt so threatened by someone who loved him and wanted to work on our marriage. He hung up and switched his phone off.

I was terrified. I didn’t want to leave the house and I didn’t want to stay. I set the house alarm and barricaded my bedroom door and laid awake until 4am. It was then that I managed to get an answer on his mobile phone and I could tell he was back at the backpackers and I relaxed enough to sleep.

I got up at 7am and went to my parents house before taking the kids to church. I told them what happened (not the slap). Dad said WH had called and among other things, asked for the car key and told him that I had made it impossible for him to come back to me and it was over between us. Mum drove us to church and I wrote WH a message saying I had spoken to my dad and I had the car key for him and wanted to see him after church to give it to him. It’s 8:30pm now and I have not heard from him at all.

I decided whilst laying awake early this morning that he was trying to catch me out with another man. That’s why he insisted on coming to dinner and why he parked up the road and let himself into my bedroom in the dark. It makes perfect sense that he needed something to hate about me and was hoping to catch me messing up. Well, perfect sense for a WH anyway.

With that in mind, I hope I sleep well tonight with no more surprises.

I forgot to mention that we had dinner at my sister's house tonight. Her hubby was dressed for work and my DD asked where he was going. He said he was going to work and my beautiful sweet innocent daughter said her daddy was at work too.

Ouch!

My daugther who is 3 1/2 and toilet trained since 2 years has been doing poos at night in her nappy and cries and grinds her teeth in her sleep. She has become really clingy with me and other male relatives and has regressed somewhat with eating - wants me to feed her and with other tasks such as dressing herself.

I'm really worried about her. She told me on Friday after childcare that she spoke to daddy on the phone. I said that was great and asked her if he had called her at school. She told me a bit of what he said and then confessed that she was just pretending. It is breaking my heart.

I texted WH last night at 10pm and asked if we could talk about DD.

He didn't reply so I texted him him the summary of what she was going through. He called me at 12.45am and started saying that it was all my fault and I needed to take the blame for what I was doing to her. I remained totally calm and said that I was worried about DD and wanted to talk about that.

He asked me what I wanted to do. I said the best option would be for us to work togther and for him to come home and if not, he would need to start seeing the kids and calling more often.

He ranted and raved about how I was using the kids to get him back and if I just took responsibility for my actions things would be different.

He said kids are fine after divorce and really well adjusted. I spoke about some of the posts I had seen on this site that said some people have never gotten over the abandonment from their parents at a young age. He got really mad and said he never abandoned his kids and said a bit more and hung up.

He sent me a message saying I used a nice choice of words about abandoning his kids and that I was messed up and an abuser and have absolutely no marriage skills whatsoever.

To which I replied that I was re-telling a story and that I didn't say he did anything. I said that I was working on my marriage skills and thank you for his critique.

At 6:30am he called me to ask me to open the door for him. He had come around to spend time with the kids.

DD was in our room watching tv so he laid on his side of the bed and played with her toys. I showered and paraded around the room just enough as I got ready for work. He dressed DD and DS and put the kids in the car for me.

He had brought me a tv guide for the week and I gave him a new tin of hairspray and the BMW key. He said thanks and then we all left together.

That was 4 hours ago and I haven't heard from him. It's weird. It was a perfect plan A on my part so I just hav to wait again. I couldn't help but notice how nice it was to see him laying on his pillow with his eyes closed and rememberd the good old days.

I still hope I can turn this around. I don't want to divorce him. I want to grow old with my H and nuke the WH for good.

We spoke a few times on the phone today.

We had a good chat mid morning but it turned sour before long. He quickly got back to blaming me for everything so I did a bit of reverse babble and when he asked what I was doing I explained that I had already taken responsbility for my mistakes in our marraige and now I was working on myself and would not listen to the negativity of the past.

I told him there was no point continuing MC as he had already made up his mind to end the marriage. He said he will do it for the kids so that we can be friends. I had an opportunity to say that life after D would not be rosey and we would not be friends. He truly believed that he could D me and it would be ok for the kids.

Now he knows that I cannot and will not be his friend after D because I love him and will not just want to hang out when it suits him to be a Daddy and when he feels like catching up with me. I think he was quite shocked.

I told him to contact the MC to explain.

He sent a message saying "I'll be there for the kids but I can't work with you on them if you're not willing to be friends. With everything else you are on your own. Furthermore you call MC if you want to cancel. I'm still open to it so perhaps you should tell him about your ideas on not being friends and amicable."

He called to apologise for saying that it was now my fault that he was with someone else. Apparently it was said to hurt me and he is not with anyone else.

WH met with our mutual friend and he tried to talk WH down from blaming me for everything. Sounds like it might have worked and he started to get that whilst he is making me wrong for everything there is no chance to move forward into the future and create something new.

He called tonight and said he spent 15 minutes on the phone with his mum and she was very negative and told him she was ashamed that he was her son and how could he do this to me and the kids and that he had made his decision and everything was over. He told me that he said to her that she should be positive and perhaps there is a chance to work everything out and she shouldn't always dwell on the past.



Maybe the rocks are piling up like Mark's analogy.

It must have been like a big mirror

Tonight I am feeling a little positive and hopeful but I am starting not to like Tuesday's as we have MC tomorrow.

I called him twice tonight to follow up on shared stuff and he sounds very down and mixed up. When I asked him which night he was coming to see the kids, he said that he really couldn't talk about it right now. Not sure if he's been speaking to the BF but I don't think all is colourful in Pleasantville.

Be the lighthouse!

very well done


This is good. He should not be calling you at 12:45am. That is incredibly disrespectful of your time. He does not get to come and go as he pleases.


This is ok......although I am really starting to think you need to change the locks.


Ok, at this point you really needed to stay calm. Keep your cool. You tell him that he is welcome to get his things anytime he wants, but he must call ahead to make sure you are there. He should not be showing up in the middle of the night, whether he thinks you are home or not. It is very scary for a woman who lives alone to have a man show up in the middle of the night! and he needs to be aware of that. His behavior was totally inapproriate and he needs to understand that. Plan A and B do not apply in that case - his behavior was scary and needs to stop.


NO no no.
He does not get his things in the middle of the night. You tell him that he is more than welcome to get his things during the day time, but not in the middle of the night. in fact, if he would like to ring you in the morning and tell you what he needs, then you would be happy to have his stuff ready for him to pick up. you all ready know that he had $300 with him - so he was NOT going to starve.

NEVER again. Ever.
First of all - you were in serious danger. It was the middle of the night. He was clearly angry, and you decide to follow him. Not good.
AND - when you get into a fight with him, you are in serious danger of losing your kids. You got into a struggle with him, you fought for his phone. If you had scratched him accidentally - he could go to the police to report that you were abusing him, show them the scratch, and the broken mobile phone, and you lose your kids. This is very serious business.

When he went out to his car, you should have locked the doors, set the alarm, maybe even called your Mom. But don't ever follow him in a situation like that. I am not talking about an LB. I am talking about safety for you, your children, and your future as their mom.


When something like this happens, you do NOT call him. You let him settle down, and you let him make the first call. You do not make the first move. I know it is hard. You are afraid he will never call. and at the same time, afraid that he will show up and scare you. But do not call him. He won that whole arguement, as soon as you called to make sure he was all right. If you were scared to sleep - then get the heck out of the house and go to your moms.

Tell them. Quit hiding the truth. This man slapped you and said it felt good. That is wrong, and you know it. You are scared of him, and you should be. Quit hiding the truth from your parents.


Quit trying to see him. Quit making up excuses for him to meet with you face to face.
first, I would suggest that you just ignore the key issue.And then, If the key was really a big deal to him, you could simply say "my dad has the key, and you are welcome to go over there and get it".

Something to consider:

I get the impression that you are hoping that you can have 1 great Plan A day: he sees you in your bathers, you look hot, you drive the expensive car, and that should be it. he comes back, a new man.
this whole process will take months. Not just a day. Months. this man is really, really sick. He is blaming you for eveyrthing. And you are still taking the blame. He is not even close to being ready for recovery.

One question I have - why do all of your conversations happen at 10pm or later? It doesn't seem like a very good time of day.

First of all, I do not think that this man is in any position to be helpful to the kids. He is totally focused on himself and will say anything to get what he wants. Do not let him be alone with DD. I can imagine he will say things to her like "I wish I could come home, but Mommy won't let me. She is being too mean to me right now. But I am going to get a new house, with lots of toys for you, and then we can be together more" Believe me. this will happen


Im sorry, but I still believe that he is planning to move in with a woman - most likely that BF. You saw the brochures in his car. He is looking for a rental. And we both know he can not afford it on his own.


You need to come up with a plan for visitation. For your benefit, and the kids. Arrange a time to meet with him, and tell him that the two of you need to come up with a plan you can both agree on. Something like: Monday and Wednesday nights for 2 hours.
Try to keep talk about the kids seperate from talk about your M. Do not say "the best thing for the kids, is for you to come home". We all know that is true, but he just thinks you are trying to "trap him" into coming home. If you are going to talk about the kids, then keep the conversation about the kids.
something like:
"DD needs to see you. Can we agree to a schedule, so I can let her know what days and times she will be able to see you?" and then if he tries to blame you "its all your fault I am not at home" simply tell him that you would like to talk about the kids first, and then if he would like to talk about the M, you can do that later.

For now, don't try to be the light house so much. Instead, focus on being the hero that your kids need. Focus on being the mature adult of this relationship.

Thank you WOF. I needed to hear all of that and probably more. My fear of losing him makes me justify really stupid things and I am not being rational and sensible and in control.

I have been reading the threads of toomuchtoosoon and the more I read the more I understand, but the concept of let go and let God it is all so foreign to me in the heat of the moment.

He sent me a picture of a bunk bed last night and said "This is my view every night. Please send me a picture of a nicer room to cheer me"

So, I turned on the lamps in the bedroom and sent him a picture of that.

He then sent a couple of messages asking for advice about his work. I replied honestly and politely and kept it simple and light.

We have the MC today. I am thinking for the communication stage that I do not harp on about the things that I don't like but try and focus on things that were great about the past and things that I look forward to in the future and the changes that I have made about myself that I really like.

- I love catching up with old friends and family and taking time out to enjoy being me; not just as a wife, employee and mum.

- I love taking an interest in me and reading books and learning about myself

- I am glad that I have an opportunity to work through my anger and stress issues and become better equipped to deal with issues myself and not expect others to help me

- I am taking care of my body and I am starting to feel happy from the inside out again about me

- I am learning to be a really good mum and devote the time when I am with the kids TO the kids and not getting distracted, although I need more practice!

I want to do this right so if anyone has any advice, please let me know.

He works nights with the band and believes he is a night owl and sleeps during the day. I have always maintained that if he had to be up for work at 8am then that would soon sort him out. He is a man with no enforced responsibilities and lives the holiday dream.

In relation to our fight on Saturday night and I said I called him at 4am. I don't know if it makes it better or worse, but I called from a private number and did not say anything. He is used to getting prank calls as he lists his number on the internet for car sales so I just rang and listened to see where he was. I definately did not call and ask him how he was or let him know that he had scared me and that his manipulation and control tactics were justified.

This is great advice. I have been mixing the two and I think this will really help focus him on the kids and make it easier for me with the kids too.

Update

We had MC on Tuesday and arrived at the same time. I gave him my pen so he could finish the homework but he had actually put in some effort. It was a list of positive needs/wants for a marriage.

WH swore at me when MC left the room and I told the MC when he got back. The MC told us both at one stage that we had to stop acting like children and marriage was for adults.

We both want almost the same things - trust, honest, spare time together etc

He did want separate time with friends which I negotiated to read separate agreed time with friends openly and honestly.

After the MC we had a coffee to talk about the kids. I used WOF's line and said no to discussions about M.

We agreed on a schedule.

He was grumpy but I kept up the happiness. He also said he was going to give me all of his earnings and just keep a little for his accommodation and expenses and that he was not going to move out with anyone because he didn't want to let anyone down if he decided to come home.

I just let it go and didn't even go there.

He came round to have tea with the kids last night and there was a lot of tension. I snooped in his car boot and he has bought a present for the BF - a board game of the tv series that she loves. I didn't say a word.

He told me that he is now working for her new band and will have 3 more shows with her a week. I stayed pretty cool but pushed and I said of course I wasn't thrilled about it but they're friends and it's work.

My phone rang at 9:45pm. I had a 2 minute chat with a girlfriend and he got upset, packed up and got ready to leave. I told him he could ask me about it if he wanted to know and I had nothing to hide, but nope.

Anyway, he walked out to the car shortly after and drove off.

We chatted after that because he didn't say goodbye.

I told him that I was happy and my life is getting better and I know that whatever happens I will be fine and that I will be amazing with the changes I plan to make. I said that trust is earned and I hoped he could trust me again one day. That he is a truly unque and wonderful guy and I will always treasure our history together and the way he made me laugh and smile. I thanked him for his love.

I got a few messages from him but I did not respond.

He has no idea what I meant so whatever

Maybe BS is happy cause my Mr mystery caller came through for BS

BS has a responsibility to not make BS children's father feel uncomfortable. There is no point in him visiting anymore. BS knows what BS did and what BS is doing now and its stupid. Don't play games with WH. You and mutual friend think you can manipulate WH and I know you are both still talking. WH knows this now so BS can f-off. You are an idiot because WH was going to make love to you tonight and BS was too busy playing games and being a jealous B-tch. Still.

Play your games and ignore me. See where it places you in the hours days and weeks to come.

I've kept my cool and not reacted to any of HIS games.

He thinks when I stay mellow and don't react I am playing games and he hates it. He wants me to bite and fight and stamp my feet.

Is this positive? Is the fact he is getting mad and jealous good?

HE does not need to learn how to trust you again. YOU did not do anything wrong. (am I forgetting something here? What is it that you think you did wrong?)

As I recall, didn't he cheat on you before? Several years ago? What were the details surrounding that time frame? What happened, and how did you guys deal with it?

You are definately gaining your strength. It is good to see you standing up for yourself more. give yourself a pat on the back!

But do not put yourself down any longer, or take credit for his bad behavior. Do not tell him that HE can learn to trust you. You are letting him off the hook. That is a temporary patch, which could potentially bring him home for awhile. But not for long, because he would not be doing the things he needs to do to recover your M.


this man is in his 40's, and acting like a child. Unbelieveable.
My sister, you have got to take a good look at this situation.
this grown man, a H, a father, goes to a M counselor with you and when the counselor leaves the room he swears at you!?! You have every right to look him in the eye and say "I will not sit here and listen to you talk to me like this. I am not talking to you like that, I ask that you stop talking to me like that" do not get angry, do not raise your voice. Just let him know that you will not listen to that language any longer.

About all of his ugly little texts. I am glad that you are not taking the bait and getting into a fight with him. But I would suggest that you let him know you are not ignoring him, or playing games. You are simply trying to protect your heart, and your feelings.

For instance:
reply:
I am not trying to play games with you, or ignore you. This is not a game to me. This is my life. I am just not going to respond when you trying to hurt my feelings.


I just don't even know what to say to this one. He is acting like a spoiled little brat.Just some thoughts I have:

1. what plan did the two of you come up with for visiting the children? whatever it is, get it written down, and stick to it. dont be mean about it - but try to get some sort of schedule going for the kids. They must be very confused right now.

2. do not allow him to use the F word or call you a B---- any longer. Period. You will not call him names from this day forward, and he will not call you names.
something like:
"WH, please do not call me names any longer, it hurts my heart. I understand that your are upset, but I really need to protect my heart from any further pain."

another thing - Be strong about his R with that BF. Do not cave in to him because: "it is a job,and he needs the money" or, "we agreed to have seperate friednships" or any of that garbage.
it sure looks to me like he is slowly trying to convince you that it is ok for him to continue this friendship with the OW. You know better than that. he carried this friendship too far, and your M can not survive it.

You are not just trying to get him back, at any cost. You only wnat him back if he can treat you well. You need to stop ignoring his bad behavior and address it. You are not trying to control him, or his life. But you can control yourself, and your own life. and that means you do not let people live in your hosue if they are going to treat you badly.

"WH, I am not trying to control you. If you want to swear at people, then go ahead. but for me, and my life, I will not surround myself with people who talk to me like that. I want to have you around, but not if you are going to talk to me like that. And if you want to continue this relationship with BF, then go ahead. But I will not continue to be a part of that. I am not telling you to stop, I am just telling you that as long as you have an ongoing relationship with her, you will not have a relationhip with me."

how are you doing????

Hi WOF,

Well, it was going great there for a while. I loved your response and memorised your tips and unfortunately, got to use them today.

SF Thursday at lunch and we kissed with more passion than we've had in years. His eyes sparkled when he looked into mine and it was my H, not WH, back from planet X.

We met yesterday for lunch and it was great. I was confident and filling his $LB$ and he loved it. He told me at the end of lunch that he had a fantastic and spending time with me and kissed me.

My sister was staying last night but he still turned up for tea with the kids and hung around till midnight just being, well, DH.

He left to go and gave me another hug and kiss and said he'd see us at swimming today.

All was great and then I caught him out on a lie. He said he was going to x for a gig with her band when he had told me he was going to y. Difference of 2 hour drive and of couse, I assume they will go together.

Anyway, he overreacted, I asked him for a dialogue about it and he wouldn't give me a time in the next 24 hours which is the rules.

I left the house to go to the shops and just dropped it. Came home, took the other car out to put fuel in it for him as I had left it empty and just stayed cool. Actually, I was happy so he told me that I was being fake to which I replied that I asked for a dialogue and dropped it and was actually being myself. He was very mad and threw his things in the car and told me I was crazy etc.

I can't remember much, just that it's Saturday, the day he pays for another weeks accommodation AND he's going to be spening most of the night with the OW. He told me he's going with the base player, not her. BUT I'M NOT STUPID. They might go as a group but he will be trying hard to get her attention. Something tells me that it hasn't been all rosey with her because he has been turning to me more and I see more DH than WH.

The point was he lied to me and wants me to trust him. I just saw in TMTS's post that all Waywards lie - that's what they do and trying to believe anything through the fog is just pointless and will only hurt me.

So, I cried, got a few nasty text messages, used your awesome response about not ignoring him, protecting feelings and heart and went to my parents house with the kids to chill out.

I'm home and no longer teary. Just really confused and disappointed that we're still on the rollercoaster.

I really felt like we were getting closer and I think he did too. My Pastor said that he might be pushing back because he doesn't want to make my changes and that coming home means accepting that he might have been wrong. I agree. He still wants me to accept that he and OW are friends and that it can continue.

WH told me there would be no dialogue tomorrow as he has given me too many chances and I will never change.

He did give me two nights a week and a Saturday for days with the kids so that's a bonus.

AARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! This is so hard.

I would love some positive support and hope if anyone has any to share. This is really tough.

I want to add the two text messages he sent me to see if anyone can comment on clues as to what he needs from me:-

"Tuesday's and Thursday's are my nights with the kids. Saturday's is the day. I could not hate you more right now if I tried. You broke all of MC's rules as well as your own on paper with kids and separation rules. That was your last chance to be blown. I am shaking because of you."

"I would ask you not do all of the things that you did today but it would be useless. Make all the ramblings you want to justify what you always do but its all B$hit. You'll bever be right and you'll always treat me like $hit and a f-up. You're the f-up now however."

All I did was ask for a Dialogue and he said no. I did push him to make a time because that's the rules (the time part, not pushing). But, then I completely dropped it. That's not like the old me at all but I just left and kept it light and happy when I got back.

He started to get mad in front of the kids and when he kicked my bag into the garage I told my kids that daddy tripped. He maintains they didn't see it and I was telling them information against him.

I don't know what to do.

Is it time for Plan B?

My Forum is next weekend and I think he is already scared about me changing there and not wanting him back. It goes from Friday till Sunday and he is looking after the kids for me.

Our family is going to Adelaide on 30 October for a long weekend (till Tuesday) for my cousins wedding. It was booked months ago so WH was included. We don't talk about it and I have no idea anymore if he is going or not.

My dad said tonight that he shouldn't if he is not committed to the marriage, I think he's right.

Should I go into Plan B after the Forum, or will the effect be lost because he expects it or do I wait until we leave for Adelaide and cancel his ticket?

MC made us commit to 3 months but that takes us to end of December and he has been living out of the house now for over 5 weeks this time.

I think that he is getting back to H but he is still in the heavy fog. He still sees a friendship with OW and has joined another band with her. That could be 4 nights a week now. It's ridiculous and completely goes against my wishes. I want him to stop hurting me but I feel that she is actually shutting him down and perhaps this is his way to get closer. Maybe things are not so good? Maybe wishful thinking on my part too.

Advice really needed please.

It's almost 9am and I did not hear from him last night. I really hoped I would and almost welcomed good or bad just for the contact.

I'm off to church with my sister so between us we'll have 4 kids under 4 at a new Christian church just up the road. Mum and dad are on a Goldwing ride so I thank God that my sister called me to drag me out and stop wallowing in self pity.

I feel so sad today and hopeless and close to tears.

hi

Your h is trying to confuse the issues by being unpredictable.In other words he is trying to take control in order to further his own agenda.

You really need to get your ducks in a very definite row.

Duck no 1 Is NO access to bank a/c.Well done there. Hang on to that .

Duck no 2
Is not to pay for his housekeeping expenses i.e. food and petrol

Duck no 3
Read W.O.F last post She is asking some very important questions The answers to which will be basic to all further ducks.She knows what she is talking about. Answer the questions and we will try to help you to deal with a very difficult situation

P.S. Remember you are a ROCK not a MARSHMALLOW

Take care and look after yourself

Admittedly, I'm not familiar with your sitch. But unless you have actually gone into Plan B by the family wedding, and WH is willing to go, I think you should let him.

It would be hard for you to have him there, no question, but he would have lots of memories inescapably thrown at him, as well. Hopefully including the words FORSAKING ALL OTHERS!!! It wouldn't be a magic cure-all pill, but it might make a good close to your Plan A, if you're still in it.

Leave him thinking of beautiful brides in white, love, and promises, then stomp his serving of cake into the dust as you cut him off without a crumb of comfort from being with you.

Good for you for being willing to do this. It's a hard step to take, but Plan B is awesomely powerful!

I didn't do anything wrong but I think that it was my way of telling him to be trustworthy without a LB - Looking back, it was the wrong thing!


Yes, he cheated with a younger woman, someone he was recording with. It started 2 moonths after we found out I was pregnant. He maintains that I pushed him into having kids before he was ready even though we both planned to have kids and had been together for 2 years prior. The timing was discussed and agreed to and I didn't hold him down for 4 months! He cheated, I moved in with my parents. We had a couple of IC sessions but our MC was hitting on him too so we quit. I waited for nearly 3 months and then he asked me to come home. He stayed in the other room and then our DD was born a month early. We got home from the hospital and he moved into the bedroom with us. It took 2 months for him for NC with the OW. With hindsight I know I was doing PLAN A or my version of it at least. There has been NC since but we just swept it under the carpet. He did become transparent and I had access to everything. I never stopping snooping or questionning things and I think he took that to be too controlling. He said that if I kept picking at it we would never heal so I figured that was the right thing to do. I never exposed to anyone and didn't know about MB.

Actually, I remember sitting with him on the couch here about 7 months ago and I said that I didn't really trust him and the changes. I think that was the start of things going badly because he felt secure and loving and I still felt hurt and had a foreboding that he would have another A. I think I actually brought it on and made him go down that path.

Oh, I wish I could remember this at the time!


Duck no 2
I got my car back today and because we had swapped for the night it kind of zeroed out the fuel exchange.

As for food, if we go out we take it in turns.

Duck no. 3 has been answered above. I hope this helps. Our mutual friend said to me that WH always knows how to control me and ultimately get what he wants out of situations with me - ie. I'm a doormat.

Should I ask him to attend or ask him if he is attending? I kind of feel like either will be wrong. He said about a month ago that he would not attend and I have ignored it and planned for our trip regardless. I figure one less person will not change the plans, just break my heart.


I would love to have the option to do it this way. We would have great memories from our trip away too which is golden for plan A.

I just don't know how to ask him or if I should just assume he is coming or let him know that we have planned the trip without him.

Today's update:

He texted me this morning to ask how DD's eye was (injured yesterday in the bath) and if I was still taking the kids to see his mum today. I sent back a happy light message saying that the new church was awesome, DD was doing great and only a small black eye and that I was still visiting his mum.

He wrote back "Thanks babe".

Ok, so I was confused to say the least.

I called him as we left his mum's this afternoon as the plan was to meet and swap cars in the city. I suggested the beach and he agreed. I went with TMTL's tip on creating ideallic family situations for plan A overdrive.

We met up and took the kids into the sand and watched some kites. I was very playful with the kids and was truly living in the moment and living it up. Headed off to the coffee shop and I asked him how the gig was. He gave quite a bit of info and it sounded like the truth. Said that the base player drove and the guitarist and BF were in the car too. I know they were because I made a prank call and could hear the other voices, both male and female.

I sat with the kids and he bought us mochas and babycinos and cookies for the kids and a pie for each of us. I only asked for a coffee and DD asked for a smiley face cookie and he did the rest which was really nice.

We sat and chatted and I completely ignored his comment about only being there to see the kids. Within minutes he had let his guard down and it was great.

We packed up, headed back to the cars and loaded the kids. I was putting DS in his seat and WH DD. He said to DD to look after mummy because she is beautiful and really needs her to be good and be a big help.

I was weirded out so I went to the other car and then walked back and realised he was taking a photo of me. He showed me the photo and said it was because my skirt was the same colour (red) as the brake light on the convertible!

Then, he kissed me on the lips and gave me an enormous hug, then moved into view of the kids so that they could see it too. He was off to Band A rehearsal (with the mutual friend) and told kids he would see them on Tuesday night.

Ok, so what is the go here?

He just called to see how I was and asked if I got his text to the kids which was a photo of himself and a message saying hi to them.

He mentioned dialogue and asked if now was ok. So, we did. I told him how his lying made me feel and that most of all I wanted honesty right now.

He told me that he lied because he doesn't like me being overbearing, jealous, insecure and assuming that there is something going on with BF when there is nothing going on. He didn't like me railroading him when he said no to a dialogue yesterday and hated it when I got fuel for him.

It was a good dialogue. I got an insight as to what he doesn't like about me and I guess they are things that I can learn and work on.

It's effective because it's safe. You just say your piece sentence by sentence and your partner repeats everything, no judgement, no rights or wrongs. Then you summarise feelings and empathise then swap. He really listened to me and I found it was me who got distracted today. The Imago work is great and it seems to be helping.

Bottom line, once you air your feelings and know you are heard, you feel better and are able to regroup and move on a little more.

I don't know where we are headed or if Plan A is having an effect, but I hope that we're getting somewhere, hopefully together.

I know that I shouldn't have argued with him yesterday. I should have just ignored it and asked for a dialogue and brought it up then. Our day would have been very different yesterday.

Living apart is hard because I don't have many times for Plan A and when we're apart I miss him like crazy and when we're together I over analyse things.

He hasn't mentioned divorce or even moving into his own place for a while now. I don't know what he does all day so it could all be happening in the background but I live in hope that he is making changes and becoming a man of integrity - which is what he wanted to do with his time on his own to find himself. Sheesh, if only that was the only problem!

No expectations...!

He's most likely jealous, yes.

He kissed you on the lips??? Great, your Plan A is having an effect - but that works both ways. He blew up and blamed you for everything under the sun including but not limited to global warming??? Great, your Plan A is having an effect!

Any reaction he has, good or bad, is a good sign. Cold and indifferent is bad. That = detatched. The sooner you get past that, and into a state of conflict, with its ups and downs, the better.

Now, his kiss was probably also intended to gaslight you into thinking that he couldn't POSSIBLY be involved with anyone else while he's smooching you, so OF COURSE he is telling you the truth. (NOT!!!)

So just keep giving him cake when you can, lovingly confront with any new A evidence that turns up, though usually not revealing your source and destroying an avenue of intel, and keep getting ready for B-day.

You're doing good!

Just realized I didn't answer your other question.

If you can stand having him there, text or tell him when everyone is leaving, and say, "I hope you'll come with us." Then leave it a that.

He'll either come or not, but he'll know he was still invited. That alone is worth something.

Yippee!!!!!!! My heart sings today after reading your message. I tried a plan A last night and sent him a text message saying thanks for the chat and that he has become an awesome listener. I said I hoped he was enjoying the car and good night.

No response, but I had no expectations so it didn't matter.

We have been having weekly SF and I hadn't thought that it was to throw me off. With his first A he didn't want to be with me in that way at all and said it felt wrong.

He's definately moved on from cold so I'm happy. Hate the rollercoaster but if it's part of the ride to save my marriage, I'm staying on it!

I completely stuffed up and exposed my intel secrets last month and have lost access to his online mobile bill. When I had access I asked for a paper copy to be sent to the house so I hope he has left that on...

I'll find a good time this week to ask him to come to Adelaide and just wait and hope. I was dreaming a lot last night about being at a wedding together and him feeling something. Hope it comes true.

Thanks for your posts Neak. I'm thrilled to have you on my board and knew you already as I have read your story and you have given me hope!

Just called him to reschedule the MC earlier tomorrow to fit in with work. He was fine with that and HE kept ME on the phone for 13 mintues just talking about stuff. Weird, but oh so great!

I got the feeling he was trying to keep talking, but I finished the call whilst we were happy and things were sweet.

He asked if I was looking forward to the Forum and I said YES, very much. He said it was really long and he felt sorry for me. I said that the only thing that bothered me was spending the whole weekend without the kids and missing them so much. He said that he could bring them down for the tea break and we could meet somewhere and hang out. He is working Sat night and Sun afternoon and night so logistically it might not work, but it was sure nice of him to offer!

He just called again to update me on the car situation and just chat about stuff. He talked over me three times when I tried to wind it up.

Is he reaching out? Is he lonley?

I know that the BF has her phone switched off for about 23.5 hours a day and have not been able to catch it on in the last 5 days. Not to say they are not talking, he sees her at gigs, but maybe she thinks he is being too clingy and is trying to cool it?

I know not to talk R or A, do not pressure or try to educate, so what do I do? I am staying light, happy and confident and trying to be the lighthouse again.

Updated to say he's called again. I am obviously his rock today and he is turning to me for my opinion on lots of things. This was about some job applications he is sending. He really wants to get into luxury car sales with BMW or Mercedes and he would be fabulous at it. I helped him with his cv last week and he's sending them off today. I figure that a full time job might be just the thing to help him to grow up and take responsibility so I decided to plan A and help as much as possible.

You're doing good, and he's noticing.

I'm glad my story could give you hope. Less than 4 years ago I was right where you are. Now....wow, has it been that long already?....my DH loves me, and I love him.

hi ya,

sorry for the T/J

Neak, could you please email me if its ok.


[/TJ]

I live and breathe hope Neak. Thank you for checking in on me! I am so happy that you are happy 4 years on. You're an inspriation!!!

He called a few more times today and things are ok. He also sent me pic of the loan car and said I can have it tomorrow too.

His paper statement for his mobile arrived today. Yay.

After D-Day he called her many times but mostly got voicemail so I must have scared her a bit. Their longest conversation has been about 15 minutes and now they talk every few days only for between about 3 minutes at a time. I don't see her calls in, but compared to the frequency of calls to her in the last 3 phone bills, there is a huge, no, mind-blowingly massive change.

I checked it out against the times we spent together and when he had called me and sometimes he did call her right as he met me or right when he left. I know I can't be mad because we are separated and he did not agree to NC.

The times when we felt closest over the last month the contact with her was minimal or non-existant. She changed her number half way through the month and now phone calls to her cost him money. Before they were the same carrier so they were free. Maybe this is helping too!

He told me tonight that if anyone says anything negative about me, including her, he defends me above all else. Apparently I mean that much to him again - or is it to keep me controlled?

We have counselling tomorrow and I remain hopeful that he will turn soon. I have booked in for a spray tan on Wednesday and bought some new sexy clothes today (I've dropped 30 pounds) so that helps lift my spirit and confidence for when I see him.

He is around tomorrow night to see the kids and again on Thursday. I jokingly said that he should stay here on Friday night and I can stay at the backpackers so that I am in the city for my conference. He said no and that I wouldn't be happy??

Every now and then I drop hints into the conversation about what I want and then I follow it up with babble. I don't try to educate but when I asked him if he was now in the 3 night a week band with BF yesterday, he asked me if it mattered. I said it would only matter if we were going to work on our marriage but if he was single it didn't matter. He told me to stop talking about it but I was already giving him my coffee order.

I am getting better at controlling my anger and have been really good with my poker face too.

Please be working plan A!!!!

I had a horrible night sleep with dream after dream of bad news. I guess these are the thoughts in my head but they play out much worse as a movie. In fact, they feel so real that I wake up angry and panicked.

When we were living together I had a couple nights like this and in the morning I would fight with him about my dream. At the time of waking I don't know if it's true or not and it's almost like sleep talking.

Anyway, hoping for a good day.

We are catching up for counselling and today we are talking about our pasts and working on our triggers which have nothing to do with the current R, but everything to do with 0 years to before we met. Should be interesting so I'll update later.

He is over to see the kids tonight and I miss SF. Maybe tonight?

I left a pack of M&M's in the car for him with a note saying sweet things for my sweet man. Too much?

House is immaculate, I look great today, and I'm ready.

Your situation has every reason to be hopeful that this man will some day move back home, and return to the M. But at what cost to you? That is where I am hoping to have an impact on you, your future, your well being.

He sends you messages like this:
I could not hate you more right now if I tried.
That was your last chance to be blown. I am shaking because of you."
And later acts like nothing has happened. Like he did not say anything horrible. And you beat yourself up over it.

You hide things like this:
he kicked my bag into the garage I told my kids that daddy tripped. He maintains they didn't see it and I was telling them information against him.

You did not tell your parents about the time he slapped you. And when he kicked your bag, you covered for him. You told the kids he tripped. And did he appreciate your cover up? No. He accuses you of telling information against him.

My sister, this man is abusing you.

You have asked several times if he is jealous. The answer is yes. Is that a good thing? I don’t know. It is certainly a sign that he will some day return to the M. He wants to have his cake and eat it to. He likes “being” a father. He does not like being alone. But he does not want to commit to you, or the kids. He blames his first A on you, because of the baby. That is a load of crap. Please understand that. His A was NOT your fault.

I have read in several places that the biggest threat to a M is conflict avoidance. And you, my dear sister, are a MAJOR conflict avoider. I recognize the signs, I was one myself. You don’t want to have a fight with your H. You don’t want him to yell, or swear, or say mean things. So you work very hard to keep peace in the family. If he says he doesn’t like something you did, or said, you change that about yourself. You tell yourself that it is your job as the wife, and Mom, to keep peace in the family. So if your H doesn’t like it when you ask him to have a dialogue with you, then you won’t ask. If he says he doesn’t like it when you put fuel in the car, then you will make sure you always keep the car at ¾ tank so he doesn’t think that you made a special trip to get fuel.

But the thing is – this is not a healthy M. You are going out of your way to make him happy, but he cheats anyway. Your H has issues way beyond what you are able to soothe with plan A. This man screwed up once. You forgave him, and allowed him back into your life. You allowed him access to your heart again. You put your heart and soul into the M. You supported him mentally, physically, and financially. Sister – you have done an outstanding plan A. No doubt about it. But it would be a disaster to allow him to come back into your home right now. The plan A you are doing right now will wear you out. If he were to come back right now, expecting the Kingly treatment you have given him, you would soon grow to hate him.

My heart felt recommendation to you, is that you not allow him to come home until after a solid plan B. He needs to know, without a doubt, what a D would look like. He hasn’t got a clue right now. He thinks that he will come and go as he pleases, and give you all the blame. Do NOT let that man come home until he has finally said “My A was NOT your fault. It was my fault. Spot on.” Please, I beg you.
Do not let him home until he has finally quit blaming you.

How do I know he will come home? He tells you it is all your fault, he will never talk to you again, and then calls you the next day. He comes to you for SF and advice. He is clearly attached to you. But the cost for you is way to high right now.

You will need to go to plan B at some time. Before the wedding? I don’t; know. But you will know when it is time. When you finally can say “ enough. I have worth. I have value. I am a child of God, and God’s children should not be treated like this”
His horrible text messages must stop. Straight away. You have tolerated this for too long. His messages are not just “fog” talk. This is typical behavior for him, and no one has ever made him stop. You do not tell your W that you “have never hated her any more than right now” totally unacceptable. You do not want to just lure him back home at any cost. You want him back as a decent H, or he can find some place else to live.

another question to consider:

Do you want to go through all fo this again in 4 years?

I am not saying "dump him, he will only cheat again"

I am saying "set the bar very high this time. Do not let him stroll back into your home until he has made some serious changes"

Thank you WOF. I really needed to hear that.

I have become so accustomed to walking on egg-shells that I really don't know what's healthy and right anymore. I just look for the silver lining and if I see a tiny silver spot my heart does cartwheels.

I am gaining strength and I think I finally see that I do deserve better from him or from someone else. I'm not quite ready for Plan B yet but I spoke with my parents about it last night and they will support me.

If anyone has a Plan B letter to share, it would be great to see it and start working on it. I don't think my H will come back and not blame me without the hard treatment. I agree with you that he expects way too much of me and will continue to blame me. I have become his doormat and he will not be expecting me to stick to my guns this time.

I know he expects me to fold and be happy with his BF being a major part of his life, M or not. Do you think he can go back to being just friends with her and that it will be ok?

I am cringing because I think I know the answer, but the old me just wants to avoid conflict and I know that's one way he would come home.

I suck at this.

NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Once was almost too much too bear when I was pregnant and emotional and completely vulnerable. I took the easy road last time because I was scared about being on my own with a new baby.

I am stronger now and I have made it through the last 4 months, mostly on my own and I know I can do it.

I would prefer that we live together forever and have an awesome marriage, but I do fear that it will happen again if he doesn't fix things for himself. He has said that before and said that it is him that needs help and that I am the most amazing woman he knows and he doesn't want to hurt me again.

I guess I am still totally scared that I will lose him if I go to Plan B. I know his patterns and he does swing from love to hate in a few days, but you're right and I do not need to live with the Jekyl and Hyde. I want someone who loves and cherishes me and doesn't find excuses to enjoy the company EA, or PA of other women.

As a friend, I want to tell you that I definately see this happening for you right now as well. the M&M's for instance.

I can tell that you are truly a kind woman.You have a genuine heart for other people. But this man texts you that he could not possilby hate you any more than he does right now, and you leave M&M's in the car with a note about how they are sweets for a sweet man. :MrEEk: come one now, the irony of that has got to make you laugh at yourself!!

Are you familiar with Dr Phil? I am not a huge fan of his - but there is one thing that he says that I agree with 100%. That is:
You teach people how to treat you.

When your WH throws one of his childish fits, calling you names and telling you that you "threw away your very last chance", and then you respond with kindness, and you vow to change YOUR behavior, you have just taught him that it is perfectly OK to treat you badly. Why would he stop? His behavior is getting worse all the time, and you are currently hoping for SF? Come on now.

I know where you are coming from - I truly do. I post to you, because I recognize my own past in you. But can you see how you are setting up a really bad relationship for yourself? You are "winning" him back by letting him treat you like crap. He will come back expecting this same Kingly treatment to last forever - and it can't (or shouldn't). In a way, you are not being fair to him. You are just working the Plan A to win him back, but what happens a year from now, two years from now, when you are still swallowing your pride, still putting yourself last, still making excuses for him.

You teach people how to treat you. Teach him a better way, by not accepting his poor behavior.

Your h is trying to confuse the issues by being unpredictable.In other words he is trying to take control in order to further his own agenda.

You really need to get your ducks in a very definite row.

Duck no 1 Is NO access to bank a/c.Well done there. Hang on to that .

Duck no 2
Is not to pay for his housekeeping expenses i.e. food and petrol
I understand your response to this question that seems to be under control good work

Duck no 3
Read W.O.F last post She is asking some very important questions The answers to which will be basic to all further ducks.She knows what she is talking about. Answer the questions and we will try to help you to deal with a very difficult situation -----------to be continued

Thanks for the reply
The most important question was re your children and arrangements for visiting them.

Duck 4
It is very important for their sake to create a regular pattern for their lives .If he is dropping by randomly and unannounced it impacts on your stress levels and consequently their sense of security . Children can detect and react to emotional atmosphere and as you pointed out earlier they show signs of emotional distress in many ways.

Basically the ducks are ways of asserting your independence from emotional, financial and practical reliance on him. You are doing really well in the circumstances. You have your own job, good family relations and seem to manage a huge amount of housework single handed.

The worst problem is dealing with his destructive emotional abuse I think a plan B might help him to get some insight into the damage he is causing to his family.

Your no 1 goal in all of this is to turn him around and to allow him to realise what an awful lot he has to lose.Neak had a good point about using the wedding as a time frame to start plan B.The main reason for using MB is to avail yourself of a well tried system which has a high success rate.

Your Plan B letter needs to include a path back via domestic violence recovery and mental health recovery.

You have no idea how well you could do until you cut yourself loose from this addiction to a mean, violent, self-absorbed adolescent who chronologically may think age = "man".

Hon, one little thing you can change as part of your No More Conflict Avoidance way of life, is to stop calling the OW his "BF". Calling a pig a chocolate chip cookie will not make it one. She's just one more OW, a dime a dozen.

You've gotten some very good advice here, and I'll try to remember to look up my PBL tomorrow. There are others around here, too, that would be good samples.

I read your posts WOF and he asked to take me to lunch before MC. I said yes, but I shouldn't have. I really didn't want to go and I was processing your notes.

I was ok, but definately distracted. He said that he really doesn't trust me at all and I said sure, ok. I really didn't care.

He'd lost his wallet so we ate, I paid! and we went back to his accom to collect his wallet. He gave me money from his teaching yesterday but nothing else yet.

On the way to MC he got a phone call for his OW (thanks Myopia) for another band for more work. He is busy trying to manage her career and really look after her, how sweet! Anyway, I asked if she appreciated his efforts and he was like, yeah, she really does, especially with the country gigs. I said that I was surprised that he wanted to take the country gigs after saying for 8 years that he would never travel more than an hour for work because he'd earned his stripes etc.

Unleash the beast. He put words in my mouth and created a huge argument entirely on his own about what I was getting at. I had no intention of mentioning the extra time they spend together or the long drives together, but in his mind I would have so it was on.

He jumped out of the car as I was parking and raced ahead to the MC where he was happily texting the OW the audition details when I arrived. Oh yeah, loved his work.

We went in, went through our family history and positive and negative influences. I cried when I talked about my mum being a doormat, feeling lost and frustrated when dad wouldn't come home due to being at the pub, feared mum and dad would split, remembered mum had us kids calling the pub to ask dad to come home etc. Messy and weird.

He said he didn't know all of that. I knew most of his but he really struggled to write anything positive about his influences and it was mostly focussed on arguments that escalated into verbal and then physical abuse with his mum hitting his dad etc. He would protect his dad and then run. That explains a lot - I wonder if he saw it.

We had a small dialogue in the car. I mentioned that he made up an argument that had nothing to do with what I said. He said that Saturday arguments are a coincidence because he has no intention of coming home and that it is all my fault and I am destroying the marriage on my own because I am controlling who he works for/with/when and if OW is there.

I asked if I should stay at his accomm on Fri night so that he could spend the night with the kids and we would not be driving back and forth. He said no, it's his sanctuary and I had to find my own.

So he dropped me at my meeting (he insisted on one car before lunch) and waited for me in the car for 45 minutes. It did nothing for his mood. We drove back to my car and he asked me not to talk to him. I was being polite and light hearted. He found the M&M's and threw them out of the car. I put them in my car.

He grabbed the kids from school and I went shopping. He made himself a coffee, refused to make one for me. Kids did not want to cuddle him, just me. I cooked, he said do not make any for me. I said too late, it was plated. He had already helped himself to a few choc biscuits anyway. I told him if he doesn't want me to cook he shouldn't help himself to my cookies.

He found the flight details for the wedding next weekend and asked why he was on it. I told him we booked it on 4 Aug and he wanted to go then. He said no way in hell and to take him off. I told him that it was his responsibility to cancel, his ticket. I would love him to come and the kids would love to spend a holiday with him and it was up to him. You can guess his response.

He sulked on his own on the lounge as I ate and laughed with the kids. After tea he rolled around on the floor with them and I went to run the bath. He came and kissed them and left but not before announcing that he is leaving because mummy is a [censored]. They didn't notice, but I did but did not react. Actually, I didn't react to anything he said or did and just played with the kids and acted sweet and kind and ignored his negativity. I found my things on the floor of the garage including the M&M's!

Just got a message (50 minutes later):-

"I will pick up the kids from school on Friday at 5pm. When you return I will leave. I will arrive at 9am on Sat and spend the day with the kids and drop them off to your parents house at 5 or 6. They can stay at your parents house on Sunday until you return. I no longer want to spend time with the kids when you're around so lets organise that since you can't be civil. Please let me know what money you require for the kids as I have to afford to look after myself too."

I'm just so sick of dealing with this.

Sorry, will respond to other posts in the morning. All hell broke loose tonight. He called me to "dialogue" about getting his things out of the house as he has somewhere to take them and wants his recording equipment to do music, probably with her!

He hates that I am controlling his job, who, where, when, with her etc and I used the WOF line of not controlling him, just protecting my heart and my feelings.

I said it was not convenient to talk moving things out and we'd speak tomorrow after I'd consulted a lawyer. He said that's fine if I had the money to waste and couldn't organise it myself. He then threatened to kill me if I did not let him get his stuff, called me a miriad of names and each time I calmly said please do not speak to me like that and I hung up.

Eventually he said he was calling my dad. He did and was apparently quite nice to him until dad asked how it was going and he said I was horrible...dad hung up.

Mum and dad arrived in minutes at the house and my sisters were on the phone shortly after. He had messaged them to say I was malicious and a horrible person and no one knew how I really treated him behind closed doors...

He has no one on his side including his family, I am doing the Forum this weekend, he is jealous of X, whatever that is, and I think he is feeling very out of control and just blowing a lot of hot air to try and get what he wants from me.

He said he will call the MC to explain things tomorrow about calling it quits, but the kicker is that he said if MC told him a good reason to keep going, he would!!!!! WHAT????

"...It's over, I'm getting my things, you have completely lost it and have blown your last chance, but if the impartial MC wants us to work on our marriage because he thinks there's a chance, I will???????????????..."

I'm going to bed to hopefully sleep.

WOF, you know the pattern, I know the pattern, I think my family now know the first angry part of the pattern and you'll be happy to know I told them about him hitting me, abusing me and breaking things around the house. They are informed and angry and ready to support me even more. I read today's posts to them and they certainly thank God for you too and your wise words today to not take him back like this and without conditions. I feel stronger already!

Enough of the pattern!

How do I break the pattern?

What can/should I do to teach him that I do deserve more than this abuse?

How do I find, enforce my boundaries?

How do I stop the vicious cycle that has been my life?

How can I stand up for myself without making him worse?

Please expose this to your dad and the police. Because he needs to be THE MAJOR SUSPECT if something happens to you.

You should have called the cops when he slapped you. Now he threatens your life and you don't even wince, flinch or otherwise move to protect yourself?

Change the locks. Call the cops. See about a restraining order - TODAY!

CALL THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your life, and the lives of your children, may well depend on it.

You have taken the first really big step - you have finally started sharing the truth with your parents. Do not stop now! Be 100% open with them. Your life, and your childrens lives, depends on it. I am not exaggerating here. This man will steal your children away from you in order to control you. You have got to quit worrying about him – right this very minute – and worry about your children.

Cancel your forum for this weekend. You need to be with your children. Pack your bags and go stay with your parents. This is not for ever – but it is for now. Do this today. Immediately. That man DOES NOT PICK UP THE CHILDREN FRIDAY NIGHT, AND HE DOES NOT COME INTO YOUR HOUSE.
You are very vulnerable right now. I know how it feels, but please allow me to show you some tough love for now. You need to let you parents intercede on your behalf for a while. The man has abused you for so long, that you do not recognize abuse any longer.

Do you have some type of womans shelter in your area? A phone line to call for women? You may not need to stay at the shelter, but you still need to call them. You need help from people with experience in this area. Because this man should not be alone with the children. PLEASE listen to me. Do NOT let him take them. I know he is “their father” but he is fully capable of doing them harm in order to “show you something”. You need to talk to a lawyer TODAY. You need to find out how to best protect yourself, your children, and your home. Your WH wants to pick up some stuff? Ask the lawyer how to handle that, and do not keep secrets from him. Tell him you are afraid, and tell him why, He will set up arrangements for you to comply with the law, let your WH get his stuff, but still protect yourself. You will most likely need to have the police watch him as he collects a few things, but please get advice from the experts.

Listen, I know all of this is hard to hear. I am not saying that this man is hopeless, that your M is hopeless. But, he needs help that is far greater than you can give him. He needs intensive, on going help. And you are not doing him any favors by molly coddling him along. You are allowing him to act like a complete a$$ and you reward his horrible behavior. This needs to stop today. And you are very fragile right now, that is why you need help. Let your parents help you. I would also suggest that you hand your cell phone over to your Dad, and let him handle the calls and messages. Please listen to what I am saying!!

You are also hiding some dark secret from his past. I do not know what it is – and I do not need to know. But you said that it is something that could put him in jail. I am fearful that this secret involves a physical crime against someone else. Please keep that in mind. This man is capable of causing great harm.

If you are not comfortable sharing all of the details of his abuse with your parents – then please talk to your pastor, or a counselor. You need someone to come along side and guide you.

Please tell us what steps you have taken today to protect yourself!!!

I wanted to specifically address your questions, just so you would know that I am listening to you:


You hand your cell phoone to your Dad and say, as of today I will not stand for this abuse. I am a child of God, and I will not allow one of Gods children to be treated this way.


By working with a counselor who has experience in this area. Someone who has worked with abused women before. You see, you learned a bad pattern from your Mom. I know all about it - I learned it to. Conflict avoidance. it is a bad plan. So you need to work with someone who can help you learn a new plan.


build a good, strong network of supporters.


You stand up for yourself, and your children, and quit worrying about "making him worse". You are not his Mother, his counselor, or his savior. It is not your job to save him. Pray for him, and then get the heck out of the way and let God deal with him. He had a bad childhood, ok. He has shared some bad stuff with you. it is not your job to fix him, train him, or educate him. Knowing that he is broken, does not mean that it is your job to fix him. And I will even challenge you further:
If you allow him to continue the abuse, and someday his tantrum gets carried away and he causes you permanent damage- handicap, scarred, or blind. Or he decides that the best way to put you in your place is to hurt the kids, if you continue to engage him,and he does something really,really bad, do you think that would be helpful to him? Don't you think it would be better to pull yourself out of his way all togehter, and "save" him from doing something even worse???

2much2lose - your screen name is appropriate. You DO have too much to lose... yourself and your children if you remain in this marriage.

My 22-year-old daughter just walked away from the same situation. It wasn't until she was laying on the floor, coming too after he choked her unconscious that she got it. She ran right then and hasn't looked back. They have two children as well. I see the same personality in your WH as her BF (the father of her children) had. It was all about him, what made him happy, what concerned him. He had no compassion at all for her or his kids. Oh, he could fake it every now and then and be sweet, but it wouldn't take long for something to come along and set him off and it was ALWAYS my daughter's fault.

This man is an abuser-- verbal and soon to move to physical. It doesn't get better as time goes by, it only gets worse.

Listen to WOF and the others... get. out. now.

Just out of curiosity, you said this is his second marriage. What happened to his first marriage? Do you know? How long had he been divorced when you met him, or was he divorced yet?

Girlfriend, you have such a low opinion of yourself because you've chosen to BELIEVE his crap. You are so much better than that. Your kids deserve a healthy and happy mommy. Get the help you need today.

Thank you for your replies.

He texted my aunty in Adelaide last night to tell her we're "unfortunaley separated" and he would not be attenting the wedding. She sent me a text to say they are thinking of us all.

Huh.

I need to go into a meeting this morning but I wanted to let you all know that I'm ok.

Steps I've taken:-

The school calls me if he enters to see or take the kids

My parents will have the kids from Friday after school till Monday morning.

I have emailed our MC with all of the ugly details - see below

My parents, my sisters, his brother and our mutual friend were all briefed on the situation last night

I will contact a lawyer and a domestic support group today

I'll stop crying and start acting

Thank you all for being there for me. I am so blessed to have found you all and you have all helped me listen to my inner voice which I have softened and ignored for so long. I do feel afraid and it's ok - I should!

I think you left out the see below part!


its ok to cry, and act at the same time!

Hi MC,

WH is apparently going to contact you today.

I am not blameless, but at no stage did I raise my voice or make him think, feel or do anything.

He thinks I am trying to control his work with OW. All I said was that if we were to work on our relationship I would need to protect my heart and my feelings and if he worked with OW 3-5 nights a week I would have a problem with it. That’s it. No threats, no ultimatums, nothing.

He threatened to kill me 3 times last night over the phone and asked me to close my eyes and walk out onto the freeway.

He called my parents and my sisters to tell them I am horrible and malicious and now he is contacting my grandparents, uncles and aunties in Adelaide to spread the news.

Everything is always my fault.

I will be seeking the advice of a lawyer today as he has demanded that we separate assets now and put a visitation plan in order.

I want to change the locks but I’m pretty sure he would smash a window.

I will be seeking assistance from a domestic support system for verbal and physical abuse and I will not be putting the kids in his sole care for visitation as previously decided.

I really fear that he could either harm or kill me or the kids to teach me a lesson.

I think he needs a psychiatric assessment and he needs to do anger management as a starting platform before I could even consider re-entering a relationship with him.

I may need to cancel the Forum this weekend so that I can take my kids away for safety. I don’t want to. I think it’s also time for me and the kids to move in with my parents immediately to be out of danger.

He has threatened me at least once a fortnight for the past 3 months and has become physically violent on 3 occasions, slapping me, trying to strangle me and throwing me around and told me on Saturday that if I wasn’t holding our son he would punch me in the face. He damages our property and kicks my things around and damaged my car, kicking the door, trying to smash the window while I was inside it and breaking the mirror.

He blows up, verbally/physically abuses me and then within 24-30 hours he starts calling or texting me like nothing has happened. I ignore his horrible behaviour and accept the good, but it does not work. I really don’t know what to do anymore.

I can’t fix him. I have tried to be a supportive, loving wife and I can’t take it any longer.

I deserve better than this. I want my husband back, but not like this.

My minister, a mutual friend, my immediate family and an internet support group know the details also. I hope it doesn’t come to anything, but he should be the number one suspect if something were to happen to me.

Very well expressed. It is time to be proactive rather than reactive because it is the reaction that he feeds on.

My h was trying some very similar performances but gave up on physical abuse as soon as my hand went to the phone to call the police and he never tried to do it again after that.In my experience the only way to stop a bully is to introduce an even bigger bully

If he runs true to his previous patterns he will revert to the position of the injured victim or turn on the Mr Nice Guy charm to try and gain sympathy for being lumbered with the crazy jealous wife.Whatever happens do not allow him to take control in this way

Your diary of posts reads very convincingly it will be invaluable as a record of recent events in the event of court intervention. I think, however, he will back off considerably from that eventuality.

In your first posts you mention NPD as a possible explanation for his behaviour. What led you to this conclusion?

I am very concerned for you. Good Luck! Keep posting!

He came around last night, pushed me around a bit, kissed the kids, tried to push me again and I looked him in the eye and said enough. He left.

I called my parents and they came around. He called and wanted to come back to pick up some things. I said that I didn't trust him and he would have to bring the police with him, and if he didn't he would not come in and I would call them.

He told me he wanted to be paid out for the house, I said I'd speak to a lawyer tomorrow. He said he was moving everything out, I said not tonight, we'll arrange it for next week with the police present.

He told me he was coming to collect our DD. I said no, called the police and he called them too. When he was on the doorstep he was calm and as cool as a cucumber. He told me I still had a chance to get everything I wanted, I just needed to talk to him. I said that would be fine, when the police arrived.

He waited for a bit then left. I made a report to the police but did not seek an intervention order, I truly believe it would not make a difference and may make things worse.

The police have the power to serve an intervention order on him if he assults or threatens me again or if he damages our property. We told this to his brother and his brother said that WH is well aware and will not be back.

I took the kids and stayed and mum and dad's last night. It felt weird but also good. I was happy that I had been strong and proactive.

No contact from him yet, it's been 26 hours. I start my forum at 9am tomorrow so I'll see if he is panicked and tries to contact me before then.

He tried to "expose" me to my extended family and our friends who have moved to Perth. He sent them messages saying that we were unfortunately separated. I told them I wanted to work on the marriage and he didn't but I still had hope.

I'm keeping cool, talking to victim groups, family courts etc and learning that knowledge is power!

I also read a one chapter of a great book yesterday: People Who Make Your Life He## - Managing the people who try to control you by Lois Grant. You only need to read the chapter that describes your 'abuser'.

I recognised my H/WH immediately. He is the Queen of Hearts.

"THE QUEEN OF HEARTS. She abuses publicly, with over reactive, verbal abuse telling us how ‘wrong’ we are. Her aim is to intimidate the opposition into instant submission."

"The Queen of Hearts can change from calm to gale force winds in one breath if she wants to be critical or doesn’t get her way. Her aim is to intimidate the opposition into instant submission, and we are all the opposition! Never say to her, ‘Let’s be rational’. She doesn’t intend to be – she is irrational to put us off balance. She hopes everyone is listening when she explodes – it’s a cost effective way of bringing you into submission. You are going to learn not to react to offer her a chance to trust – and improve her relationship with – another human being."

"You can learn to protect yourself from the Queen’s attacks. After the first encounter, expect more of the same. Lowering your eyes and pretending it isn’t happening will only encourage her. If you’re not afraid, can’t be intimidated and don’t react, she will stop. There is no point in her carrying on the attack. The focus is squarely on her and she feels foolish. Besides, rage takes a lot of energy. Learn to see her as a ferocious marshmallow. Sit calmly, look her directly in the eye while she rages and performs. The purpose is not to humiliate her, but to be totally unimpressed."

"The basic rule in dealing with any Queen of Hearts is, ‘If you want my respect and cooperation, you’ll have to earn it’. State this calmly, when she has run out of steam, then walk out quietly, withdrawing with dignity. Do not run – that encourages her. You may only withdraw to the next room, your bathtub, or you may go for a walk – whatever will nurture you at that moment."

"Don’t be surprised when you get back together if nothing is mentioned. That’s fine. The Queen will give you more opportunities to smile and remind her of the rule: If you want my respect and cooperation, you’ll have to earn it."

"Be compassionate enough to stop the Queen of Hearts. Know that inside, she is suffering a great deal."

"Compassion begins at home. In asking for mutual respect, and expecting to get it, you are defining the outcome you want, and laying the foundation for reciprocal respect. If trust develops and the Queen feels more secure, there is less need to chop off heads. Remember, what drives a Queen of Hearts is the fury of feeling inadequate and a need to control you through intimidation."

"TAKE YOUR NECK OFF THE CHOPPING BLOCK

 When she meets with opposition, the Queen of Hearts launches an attack to cover her doubt and vulnerability.
 The best way to deal with the Queen of Hearts is to show that you are not afraid of her tirade of abuse.
 Do not be submissive. Listen to her rant, but remain neutral and look her in the eye. Walk away if her abuse goes over the top.
 Call her bluff and agree with her, but exaggerate her criticism using gentle humour.
 Tell her she has to earn your respect or you won’t cooperate, then withdraw with dignity. Expect her never to mention the incident when she returns but expect better behaviour, too. If she blows up, stick by your rules. Remember, she may need lots of chances.
 Never placate, never make excuses and never argue with a Queen of Hearts.
 Never justify her behaviour.
 Be compassionate. She needs it.
 Don’t confuse compassion with patronising behaviour. Compassion is the ability to believe we can help each other in a very critical society. Bullies need compassion and limits."


All of this and I just miss him so much. I would love to have him back to work on our marriage but he really needs help and needs to know to seek it before we'd even be in a place to try. I hope that this time apart will help him miss us and want to win us back. His twitter on his website was updated last night to read "Coming to terms with the decision to be on my own again"

I would like you to spend a little bit of time this weekend thinking about the difference between missing him, or missing the security of having a husband.

here again, I speak from experience. for the longest amount of time I mourned the loss of security in my life. I no longer had a "guaranteed date" for parties. when I would receive an invitaion to an event, I would instantly try to think of an excuse to get out of it - so I wouldn't have to show up alone.
I missed being able to say "My husband and I". I missed having another adult in the house. I missed having someone to stay home with the kids while I went to the store.

But I finally realized that all fo this was differnt from missing him.

I can look back now and wonder why I tolerated a lot of the stuff I tolerated for so long. why I allowed my Ex to attack my self worth, and make me feel very small and unimportant. I can see it all now. But I couldn't see it when I was up close to it. And I have to tell you that the things my Ex did were no where close to the things your WH is doing.

Your WH may very well miss you, and have the desire to return to you. You represent a LOT of security in his life. Emotional, financial, physical. Of course he will miss that. But that does not mean he will be at all ready to get help - and he needs LOTS of it. Do not falter. Be strong in your resolve. Do not listen to his crying about "I am sorry, I just want to be with my wife and children again, I miss you all so much" Be sympathetic to it all, but let him know that he is not coming back until your counselor, who specializes in abused women, says it is ok.

And lean on God. If you let him take care of you, amazing things will happen for you.

I'm quickly logging on before going to the forum and really appreciate your message WOF. I will keep it front of mind and try and find the right answers for me. I am still confused and in love with my H who is very different from WH, but still has many problems.

You make some really good points and I do take them very seriously.

I'll let you know how I go. Thank you for thinking of me. I'm still strong and raising a family, working full time and keeping house on my own and I'm ok.

I spoke to my boss yesterday morning who is concerned about my weight loss etc and she will continue to support me, including financially if need be. She suggested I could rent the house out and move in with my parents for an extra income source which is a great idea, if I need to.

Hugs and kisses!
Kerri

I have just had the most amazing experience of my life and I wanted to share it with you and let you know that instead of pretending a Plan A with my WH, I have been catapulted into a whole life of Plan A so that everyone that I interact with will have the best of me.

I can honestly say that the Landmark Forum has saved my life. I feel completely free and open to possibilities and I can't imagine not being happy again.

My life is a walk in the park compared to the tradgedies of some of the people I met (there were 142 people in our group) and I am now able to have an amazing relationship with my husband, if we stay married or not.

It goes against Plan B, but this is worth it because I have the benefits of feeling great and free in Plan B but with the added bonus of continuing a relationship with my H as a truly loving and amazing woman - better than the one he fell in love with. Who wouldn't choose that?

Anyway, I wrote him a letter which was my assignment on Friday night. We hadn't spoken since Tuesday night. I truly didn't have these insights until I had started the forum. I read it to the group on Saturday morning and about 85% of the men and women cried. I had more love and compassion in that room at that moment than I have felt in a lifetime. I was being completely open and honest and it was the greatest feeling ever to be 100% fully self expressed.

I emailed it to him on Saturday night and also spoke with him. He was still mad but I had the freedom to tell him exactly how I felt with no expectations and no fear. I was crying and I could hear him crying too. He didn't say anything except for goodnight.

He dropped some gifts off for the kids when I was in the course so the forum leader walked in passed them to me. I was blown away - so way everyone else.

Last night I got a text message which was a real breakthrough for us.

"I read your forum letter. Thank you. Fair to say that i didn't know all of those things. I hope you're ok and that you received the gifts for the kids today. I'm into the 2nd gig for the day now and I just wanted you to know that I love you. Never stopped. I hope the forum stays with you, really do."

I don't feel afraid to tell him how I feel now and I believe we have created a platform where anything can happen. I now have the skills to not nag and complain and to be loving, open and honest. Who wouldn't want that?

I'll put in my letter to him too.

I cannot recommend the forum enough to you all. You can all have an amazing life - better than what you can imagine and you all deserve the very best, and that's why I am sharing with you!

Go to [color:#33CC00]www.landmarkeducation.com[/color] and see if there is a free introduction session in your state/country. It is a worldwide group and they are making a positive difference everywhere. Be skeptical and read the research info from Harvard etc. If you liked the concept of the film "Pay It Forward" then you might be interested to know where the concept came from!

I don't work for them, I don't get a commission for referrals, it's not a cult. I just want you to feel the inner peace that I have and feel the joy of having endless possibilities.

Dear H,

When we got married I created the possibility that we would be together, happily, forever. You created that possibility too and together we ran head first into our new life with freedom and abandonment.

I thought I had met "the one" who was the answer to my prayers and had rescued me from my unhappiness of being alone, being with wrong guys and making me complete.

You wrote me songs that outlined our massive love and then put them on your albums and website and shared our love with everyone.

I was the happiest I could ever remember. At our wedding I gave a speech and thanked my parents for having an amazing marriage and gloated that I had been given a perfect example for marriage - one that I could teach you because your parents got it wrong.

I wanted to fulfill the rest of our dream as fast as possible and asked if we could have a baby. You resisted, but I made you wrong, justified my reasons, dominated you and 4 months later, our daughter was on the way.

I was so happy – so much so that I didn’t notice your distance until you had found the open arms of someone else. Someone who did not discount your opinions and who wanted you to love and protect them and who was vulnerable and open to your love.

I was so mad at you for cheating on me and told you to call it off, grow up and take care of your responsibilities to me and our new family. I questioned why you would do this if you truly loved my like you said you did.

I hurt but I was patient and waited for you at home with the new baby while you finished it off with her.

We worked on our marriage, but only on the surface. I became overtly controlling of you and our marriage in an effort to prevent another affair and from being hurt again.

What I now realize is that I had created the problem by never loving you fully and being vulnerable. I was the same in my previous two relationships and I distanced myself and they each had an affair too.

On reflection, the skills I learnt from my mother were to avoid conflict, putting husband, career and family first and myself last, undervaluing myself and being a “Stepford wife” – false and happy.

We always looked good.

Dad was an alcoholic, although we’d never call him that. If he was mad we tiptoed around him and glossed over anything too difficult. He’d yell first but always apologise later. If he was at the pub mum would get us to ring the bar and ask for him and ask him to come home. They’d fight. I thought dad would leave or die.

At one stage I thought mum found someone else. I was strong for my sisters, but the fear of abandonment was very real to me. Mum loved dad so much and did everything he wanted at the cost of her own happiness and yet he still treated her badly and did what mattered to him.

I realize I brought this into each relationship. I never fully trusted that I could give myself 100% and expect to receive 100%. I have held back so much so that I could not be hurt.

What I created in our relationship was a platform where I was in the game, but didn’t engage – I was on the bench. Victories and failures were mine, but I never involved myself enough to be completely open with you and I feel we never really communicated our feelings – they could hurt. I preferred my version of you, of us.

Now we have a gorgeous 3½ year old daughter and a handsome 1½ year old son, live in a beautiful home, drive a beautiful car and look good to everyone. But you’ve been gone for 6 weeks, although our marriage has been in trouble for at least 6 months, and if I was honest, from the start. We’re separated now and not talking.

I have tried to win you back from your new best friend. You both said it’s not physical so it’s okay, but it doesn’t need to be sexual to be an affair to me. I’ve run so many rackets to punish you for my failure in this and hurt you so much with my words and actions.

I want to work on our marriage and learn how to meet your emotional needs so that you don’t ever need to look anywhere else to be complete. I was not there when you needed me the most and now we are both suffering for my mistake.

What I came to the Landmark Forum to accomplish is to get you back and engaged in our life.

What I am actually accomplishing is understanding that I cannot control you. I only control me. I didn’t know that I invited the third person into our relationship because I was closed off from giving myself to you fully.

The possibility I have invented for myself is the possibility of being able to let go. I need to open up fully to be okay to be hurt so that I can truly love and be loved. The possibility to fully express myself and have the freedom to choose my life and give you your freedom too.

I would love for us to have another chance to be together but I will learn a new way of acceptance if you do not choose this journey with me. I know deep down I’ll be okay – but I want that at the forefront of me so that I can have a fulfilling life with or without you.

I would love you to be there on Tuesday night with me so that I can share my experience with you in person. You deserve to see the best of me because you helped create it by sharing your Landmark Forum experience with me. I will forever be thankful to you. I feel lighter and happier and ready to live without rackets and without fear and without a past that controls me.

ARILY
xxx

Listen to me, please.
YOU DID NOT NOT INVITE A 3RD PERSON INTO YOUR M. His A is not your fault. Not this one, and not his other one either.

You can not create a happy life for yourself by trying to take the full blame for everything, and not encouraging him to take responsiblity for himself. It is not your fault that he went outside of the M for female companionship - and he has done that twice now. It is NOT your fault that he has hit you - you did not force him to do that with your own behavior. It is not your fault that he says things like "I could not hate you more than I do right now".

Ugh.

I am glad this forum was helpful to you, but I fear that it is just a matter of time until you have another huge fall. I suppose the next thing you are going to tell me is that you have decided to accept his friend into your M. That he needs this friend and it would be selfish of you to get in the way. Sister, I have to tell you that if you do that, I am out of here!

You are wanting to create a happy life for yourself, that is totally understandable, and admirable. You hope that by taking charge of your own life you can create what you want. In a way, your behavior is more controlling, and more harmful, then your WH. At least your WH is openly sick. The things he says, and does, are openly sick. Not at all rational. He is trying to bully you into submission. Into submitting to whatever he wants. Heck, the guy has not had a full time job in years, yet he convinced you to borrow against your house so he could have a $75,000 car. and now, he even wants more money out of the house.

But what you are trying to do, is control him by taking full credit for all the bad stuff. And that will not help him, or you. His behavior will only get worse then - because you have excused it. He will continue to treat you like crap, and you will just say "its my fault, I know better. I shouldn't look at him a certain way, because that just makes him crazy" Your children will end up with a Mom who is so beat down, so abused, so miserable that they will likely end up in bad relationships themseleves.

As I said beofre, you are teaching this man how to treat you. You are teaching him that it is ok to hit you, break your things, kick your stuff, use foul laungauge towards you, tell your family you are a horrible person, make threats to kill you, etc. I could go on. But how do you deal with his behavior? You write him a long letter about how it was all your fault and you take full responsility for all of it. You are hoping that if you just "treat him better" he will "act better". But he is an abuser, and he needs serious help - not just some feel good weekend forum.

Let me ask you this: Have you shared your forum letter with your parents?

When my husband and I were separated, I also went to a similiar kind of seminar but it was called "The Road". I felt like a million dollars at the end of that weekend. I was ready to handle anything, including letting my husband go. I was all bubbly, positive and happy too. I was UP THERE on cloud nine... in la la land.

It didn't last. Real life set in. It was a hard fall and left me more discouraged than before. I just don't want to see this happen to you.

A wayward isn't going to "hear" what you're trying to say in your letter. I understand that you're trying to break it down for him, where things with wrong, etc., but honestly, you ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for his deciding to have an affair. MOST people do not go have an affair when things go wrong in a marrige. MOST people will either divorce OR try and work it out.

There is no magic bullet (or letter) to get him to see the light.

Your letter will be a waste of time to a wayward. Send it if you like, but I can almost guarantee you it will have little if NO effect on him.

Your time would be better spent concentrating on the PROVEN Plans recommended by Dr. Harley.

Hi WOF, I know it sounds like my story when you say it back to me but sometimes I live in a little bubble and forget all of that stuff and somehow that makes me feel better and rational.

Sigh. It's going to be a long road. I haven't shown my parents the letter and don't know why I would really as I think it would hurt them.

I guess now I feel free to choose my marriage or choose not to. Before I felt overwhelmed and now I know that I can really have an amazing marriage with a man who truly loves and respects me - hopefully my H, but if not, there will be someone else.

The kids cry for daddy often and that really makes it hard on me and I feel sometimes that taking him back is the better option. It's easier to imagine that taking the blame will solve things.

I will give my H space to improve before I take him back. He is not coming to the wedding so I will be away with the kids from this Thursday morning to Tuesday night next week and I am looking forward to the breathing space.

I hope that the time apart will give him space to reflect and decide if he can make the changes. I still hope I can be in a relationship with the father of my children, but I don't feel closed off anymore to the possibility of something better. I know I can't demand that he loses the OW just yet as he can't see what it's done to me/us. When he hits that point I will let him know what needs to happen to move forward.

Thanks for writing!

Hi PM, I haven't heard of "The Road" but I know exactly what you mean about the fall. I hope the good feelings stay because it's so much easier to cope!

I also understand that my WH doesn't get it. He did the Forum last month and his changes lasted for 2 weeks. I guess it gives us a platform to be more open and honest with each other which will help, but he needs to do the work for his integrity.

I agree that Dr Harley is the way to go - I've seen and heard other people's results and that really encourages me. I guess I just get disheartend when my WH acts out and is nasty. When I am nice he doesn't do that and it seems to be the right choice.

I fear Plan B as I fear the lack of control - (giggle) - I'm not in control now! (thanks WOF - I live to manipulate and control)

I'll take the break this weekend and still look at Oct 30 for Plan B. It scares me so much.

Sorry WOF - I forgot to respond to you about inviting a 3rd person into the marriage. I know you're right, and if I had a man who was dedicated to me and to the children that he would not have had his affairs. I guess all I did was give him the justification he was looking for, and that's really stupid.

He is a sick man, I know you're right. I think I've been in the situation for so long that it just feels ok to me now. That sucks.

I don't ever want to accept the OW into our M, or any OW, and I don't want to lose you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, this is why I asked this question. Here again, I can relate, because I have done this too. You did not share the letter with your parents because you knew that they would be upset. After all they have been through, with you, this past week, they would be upset to find out that you are taking the full blame on yourself. And they have a right to be upset. They want to protect you! I am sure that your parents have not been perfect people all your life. And I am sure that you have not always been the perfect wife. BUT - they did the best they could at the time, and now they want to help you. If they knew that you were taking responsibility for your WH's abuse, they would be upset.

When you are tempted to hide this sort of thing from them, it is a good indicator that something is not right. That you are not protecting yourself. Just like you didn’t tell them when WH hit you, kicked your bag, threatened you. You did not want them to worry about you. But your WH's behavior was horrible, and they needed to worry about you.

You are an adult now – a mom, a wife. And your parents should not be telling you what to do with your life. HOWEVER, when they try to warn you that you are in a bad situation, you need to pay attention to them. They want you to be happy, healthy, and safe. Imagine how you will feel when your daughter turns 18, and has a serious boyfriend. If she comes home crying and telling you that her boyfriend has done/said some of the things your WH has done/said, how would you react? Would you tell your lovely daughter that it is probably her fault? That she brought it all on herself? I hope not!!! Your parents want to protect you know, just like you will protect your little girl.

There is a really good book you should read called "Women Who Love to Much". I don't recall who the author is. but it basically talks about how we, as women, will put up with way too much crap from a man, always thinking that "someday" it will get better. We are trying to fix some of our broken childhood, by finally making a broken M work.


did he really spend a lot of time with them before he left? doing nice, family type stuff? I wonder if they miss an "in tact family" more than they miss him. They probably sense that Mommy is sad, and relate it to Daddys absence. Maybe??

I can not believe, for one minute, that taking him back(as he is) and allowing him to shout foul things at mommy would be "better" for them. And spending years making excuses for how Daddy "tripped" over Mommys stuff would not be a better option.


Please call the airline to make sure his reservation has been cancelled! You do not need any surprises at the airport.

You are 100% correct here! He needs to figure out if he can make the changes!!!!

You sound better today. Your other posts had me worried about you.

Hugs!

ahem!
Where are you my friend!!!

Just wanted to let you know that I will be out of town all next week, so if you should post while I am gone, I will not be able to respond for awhile

Hope you are ok

^^^^^

bumping up for 2much2lose,

Hope you are okay.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Well, I'm back from my wonderful holiday with the kids, my sister & best buddy, my other sister, hubby & 2 bubs, my parents and all the extended family. Now I'm back with some pretty strange and interesting stories for you!

WH visited on Wednesday night when I was busy packing. He wanted to kiss the kids before we went on our holiday and I said that was great.

He actually turned up on Tuesday night to the last night of the Forum (can’t remember if I’d told you yet) after he said he wasn’t coming. I stood up the front when they asked for the group who were waiting for miracles. It seemed fitting to me.

Anyway, one of the girls told me it was great that my husband turned up. I said alas, no, he wouldn’t come. She said, isn’t that him over there? It was. I had my miracle. No is not no!

Wednesday was surreal. A lady from the Family Relationship Centre called me to say that my WH had contacted them to arrange an official visitation schedule for the kids. I wasn't mad. I was happy that he'd actually been proactive in organising something for the kids. It involves individual sessions with WH and I before a joint mediation session. All free, all out of court.

He asked me on Wednesday night if the miracle I wanted was to get my husband back. I said yes, but not to go back to what it was. I wanted a better marriage with the two of us. We chatted openly and honestly for the first time. He told me that he had great female friends but they are not me and he wants what we have. He doesn't want to lose me or his family and wants to work at making a great marriage. He is sorry for hurting me with OW and understands that we have hard work to rebuild trust etc.

I told him it was not as easy as him moving back home and that I wanted to take it slowly. I am not happy with OW being in his band and want to set my boundaries for future friendships etc.

He agreed and we agreed to take it slow. We had SF and just on midnight, he went back to the backpackers. I went to sleep feeling happy and heard and on the path of something new and great.

The holiday was awesome. I sent him pics of the kids at our favourite places and a great pic of the bride, our daughter and me from the wedding. We talked a couple of times, nothing forced or weird.

On Saturday he rang and was really upbeat about a job interview he’d had at a city music store and excited about getting it. Excited about us too and told me a few ideas of dates we could go on whilst taking it slow as I’d suggested.

On Sunday he spoke to me and I asked him where he was. He told me he was at home waiting for me. I replied that we were still 2 days away. He said he has checked out of the backpackers and has moved home for good.

Yes - I know what you are thinking WOF!

He wrote a message saying “I’m finding it extremely hard to be here. It took me 1 hour and 40 minutes just to finally come in and I feel like I don’t belong and need to go. I’ve never felt like this ever. Just empty. I’m going to try but I honestly don’t know how things will turn out. I only hope for the very very best. I’ll be ok. I’m just feeling very closed in that’s all. I love you.”

We arrived late last night and the lights were on at home. The kids were so excited to see him! We all played for a bit and I put them to bed.

He was in a strange mood. Really quiet and withdrawn. We talked as I unpacked and he mostly kept to himself and didn’t offer much. I didn’t do any R talk, just kept it light. Rubbed his head a bit (his favourite) and then said I was going to bed. He started to say something and then said it didn’t matter. I assume it was that he wasn’t sure about sleeping in the same bed, but I didn’t press him.

I went to bed and he came too about 20 minutes later. He was cold and I am pretty sure he was crying. I gave him a hug and told him that I understood it was really difficult and if I could help at all by listening, I was there. I didn’t expect any big declaration of love and it really is going to take time, but day by day I hoped to make a difference for him and we would create something wonderful. He told me he did want to be there and it didn’t feel weird, but he sounded weird about saying it. I went back to my side of the bed and slept. It was peaceful to have him home, but sad too – who is he now?

This morning I got the kids up and DD’s first words were where’s daddy? She raced down to the bedroom and was SO excited to see him. He got her dressed as I dressed DS. He got up, put them in the car and helped me with my things and told me he was looking for more jobs today.

No kisses for me today, sadness in his eyes, but a little tiny ray of hope too.

I know we have a really really long way to go and this isn’t how I’d imagined it, but this is what I’ve got and I guess my PLAN B has been sacrificed for my PLAN A. It really must have worked after all! Deep breath. Now the hard work begins.

I cooked a great dinner and have been doing an awesome plan A.

However, as luck would have it he wanted to R talk and wanted to rehash it all and tell me how unhappy I have made him, so much so that he cried himself to sleep last night.

He said he hates when I play happy families and said don't be happy, don't touch him, don't cook for him etc.

AGGGHHHHHH! Day 1 and he is already being difficult.

He said give him the word if I am unhappy and he'll leave. He will stay here for the kids mostly and will just see how it goes with me. He said he feels trapped and angry and sad!

Anyway, I played really cool and did not anger or argue. I plainly stated that I was working on our marriage and would continue to be who I was (happy etc).

He's working on his music and feeling sorry for himself about everything, so I'm staying out of the way completely.

He got mad tonight because he realised our Forum seminar series is together and he wants to do it without me.

I'm still going.

He can sit home and stay with the kids and think of me moving on without him and without anger and sadness.

Does anyone have any tips on how to respond to his pity party and jibes about me playing happy families? It's Plan A from where I sit, but how do I appease him too?

The hallway from the lounge to the bedroom goes past the open doorway to the music studio where he was working. I paused to say goodnight and he jumped up and gave me a kiss on the cheek and said good night.

I didn't skip a beat, just took it in my stride and wandered off to bed. I don't know when he got to bed but I put my teddy bear in the middle of the bed and he was there in between us in the morning. Anything to help both of us sleep and relax!

This morning was calm. We dressed the kids and he chatted to me while I did my makeup and let me kiss him on his forehead when I left. I thought he was going to give me the cheek kiss so I beat him to it.

I don't know if he'll come tonight or not. He said no but I know that no is not always no and he's surprised me before. We'll see what happens!

I remembered something he said last night. He said that a friend of his said that I would turn into a mega B$t$h when I realised he was not home for good and would be leaving again and what he had seen so far was nothing. I asked him if that was the truth, if he was just saving money for when he was ready to leave. He said no, that he was home to give it a try to work it out and doesn't want to mess up his kid's lives like his had been.

I'm kind of confused but reminding myself that I need to Plan A with no expectations.

Hi TMTS,

I finally finished your thread and am keen to see what happened next. Where are you???

I could really use some Plan A/Recovery advice.

I hope this bounces to you in cyberspace!

Over 20 years ago, I went through a three tiered training similar to Landmark. I've seen mixed results as far as relationships go in my 20 year walk through life since, in and out of the training. Too many times, I've seen couples destroy each other using the language of the training as a weapon to manipulate their partner.

You are doing well, focusing on being your best self, and remaining open and inviting to him to join you. You are not using the language of the training to "process" him into being with you - you are simply "being". Great! Excellent! As it should be.

I was also relieved to see that you were prepared for the let down after the exhilaration of the completion of your first step. It truly was a wonderful feeling when I went through, and there was such a sense of loss the first time life comes rushing back on me! Hours later, actually and the first three weeks after was when I confronted my mother about some childhood memories and found out not only had my guess that she had cheated on my father been dead on, but that she thought that I was a product of that affair! Devastating! I went straight into the 2nd level a couple weeks after that secret came spilling into my life and dealt with more and more.

You are discovering that your husband will choose in or out, but that you always have the choice to have joy NOW anyway.

Remember, keep breathing, take another step, breathe and acknowledge where you are right now... It really truly works.

It only breaks down when you try to manage someone else's experience of NOW. He has to choose that for himself...

I'm pulling for you!

Love and light,

KA

Thank you KA - you have lifted me up!

It must have been a huge life lesson for you and I take it from your stong position now that you are enjoying your life too. It certainly removes the burden of carrying unecessary loads. Thank you for inspriring me!

I still have my moments but I find that I really want and can remove myself from situations that bring me down. I now live with the knowledge that I am fine whatever he chooses and I think he sees it too.

I have not given up on my marriage, just the expectations of being able to control everything. I have a long way to go to become less controlling in life, but I feel like I am on the right path.

Maybe he has seen the changes in me and that's why he chose to come home when he did. I love that it was 100% his choice to be there. I feel completely free to just relax and let it be and it feels great.

I am sure tonight will pep me up again and I look forward to catching up with my new friends from the group and telling them about my breakthrough!

Thanks again KA

I had my Forum seminar last night and it was great to catch up with my little group. They were all suitably surprised about WH coming home!

I got home at 11pm and the house was immaculate, dishwasher on, kids asleep and DH working on music in his studio. I gave him a quick kiss on the cheek and went into the lounge and watched a bit of tv. He came in about 5 minutes later (unexpectedly) and sat with me on the couch, sharing my chips!

We laughed over Seinfield and as I got up to go to bed he asked me about my seminar and I went through some of the key points.

I gave him another kiss on the cheek and went to bed. No LB's.

I don't know what time he got to bed but DD came in at 4am and I took her back to bed and then gave him cuddles when I climbed back in. I think he could of been interested in SF, so I retreated to my side of the bed before he thought I was pushing for something and turned it back on me!

At 5am DD came in again and he brought her into bed on his pillow and slept at the opposite end of the bed to give us all room. (head to toe)

When I woke up, he got DD and DS ready for school and put them in the car.

I told a concerned friend at work that I am trying not to be needy, demanding and emotional. He said that might be a problem because WH would want to feel needed. His wife left him 9 years ago and they got back together after 12 months apart. He did not communicate with her and now he tells her everything and they seem to have a winning formula for their growing family. I think I do need to be more vulnerable.

I am trying hard to be needy and involve him around the house. He put dinner on and fed the kids last night without asking me for help and I asked him to put the roast chicken on for us today. I don't think I ever gave him enough credit and babied him too much.

My blame in our demise is definately that I am super controlling, independent and successful. I think I actually wrote him out of the marriage in my attempt to make him happy and he didn't see his place in it. It is my goal to make him the integral part that I need so that he knows his value and place in our home.

The old me:

I order for him when we go out or suggest items he might like and change his mind; I cook, clean, do laundry, work full time, dress, bathe, feed the kids, manage our finances, complain about how busy I am and how little he does to help me, sulk, mope around, complain about him not wanting to spend time with me...

The new me:

I ask him to help around the house, ask him to put dinner on, leave the dishes for him to do the next day (at his request), ask him to help dress the kids, thank him for all of his help and enjoy it so much when he does these things without me asking - he really does want to help.

I know there is more to add to help him feel a part of the family unit. Any ideas or suggestions?

I asked if he wanted to go to the drive in tonight together and he said no, he wants to spend time with the kids. I did have some expectations that he would want to reconnect with me but I didn't voice them. It is enough at the moment that he is home and having dinner with us and not leaving at night, not spending time on the phone, not shrinking away when his phone rings and coming to bed with me. His committment to the kids and our family is evident and I think he is trying with me too. He hasn't taken up the full effort to get our marriage on track, yet. Couselling is next Tuesday after 2 weeks break.

He has a 2nd interview tomorrow with a music store that he applied to and he really wants it. I think it would help him feel like a contributor financially and really help with his sense of self worth and responsibility too. It's a big change for him to be looking for work. He is changing

After reading MogiSola's post, I realise I need to focus on me - what makes me happy, developing me, keep up with no relationship discussions, don't follow him around, no pressure, back to Plan A.

He cooked the chicken today but told me that he wants only apples and bananas for tea as he's put on too much weight. He cooked it, not me, so where's the problem?! I told him that chicken and salad is so much better and he went on a tangent about me not letting him do what he wants etc. When he finished I changed the subject.

So, I'll make tea for the kids and go all out playing with them and having a great time until bed. Then I'll go and de-hair my legs, jump in the spa bath and have a lovely soak and read a book. I plan to exist for me tonight and if he feels like joining me, he can, but I will not pursue him. Actually, this has to be my plan for the weekend.

Tomorrow I might pull out the canvasses I bought for the bedroom and start painting them up. I've been procrastinating and it's something that I really used to love to do.

I am taking DD and DS to a movie premiere on Sunday morning. I invited him but he said no. His loss - we'll have a great time.

I thought he was working in OW's band tomorrow night but it has fallen through. Boo hoo. I think he is with his band on Sunday night so I will just keep up an awesome Plan A. I hope to pull him out of his W/D by focussing on me.

WH/DH picked up the kids from school and was playing with them when I got home. The house was tidy, chicken cooked, and things seemed great.

I served up tea for the kids and I and after about 10 minutes he came and served himself a plate of chicken and salad too! I knew he'd love it - it just had to be his idea!

I had a bath last night and he came in 3 times to check on me! When I came out after 1 1/2 hours all refreshed and relaxed I came straight to the lounge. He practically ran out of the studio, put on a movie, made me a cup of coffee, got us some biscuits and sat with me on the couch. He eventually told me about his new song because it was probably killing him that I hadn't asked him.

He kept on updating the lyrics and jumped into the studio a couple of times to get things down. On my way to bed he asked me to listen to it. He really wanted to involve me with his things. I gave him 100% attention when he initiated it but kept to myself otherwise.

Today has been the same. I have largely stayed out of his way and he has been actively sitting with me and involving me with things.

We had a small R talk. He wants to keep his separate bank account and doesn't feel 100% committed yet. I jsut said ok, but if we want it to work we are both going to have to give it 100% at some stage or it will fail. We dropped it and watched some car clips on U-tube together.

I can see this working out although I do understand that he is taking it slowly and holding back at the moment. It's ok. I can do this and I feel really strong in the knowledge that he's here for the right reasons. Family first is fine with me. It includes me too.

At my request, he did the Five Love Languages - Gary Chapman - 30 second test. He picked Words of Affirmation which I had guessed for him. He thought I was Acts of Service which explains why the house was always tidy but I never got my Quality Time. It meant a lot that he asked me what mine was. I don't know if he'll read the book, but at least I can fill up his Love Bank in his love language!

I kept up my plan A but we had a fight last night.

He worked yesterday afternoon but came home straight after the gig. His heart wasn't in it - but he was civil enough.

He mowed the lawn, I put the kids to bed and then offered to make him a bite to eat, He said yes and came back out of the studio and sat with me.

When he got a text message, it was a photo of a hummer. I asked him who sent it at he said Cara - OW2 (best friend number 2).

He told me that I am not allowed to have anything to do with his work or his friendships. I told him I didn't give a F about any of them, he could do what he wanted.

That was about it.

Until, I cleaned the kitchen and jumped in the bath and called a friend of mine from Sydney. I was chatting to her when he came into the bathroom and was indicating (I think) that I was talking to a man and not listenting to him. He was telling me he was going for a drive because I had upset him by using the F word.

Anyway, he grabbed the phone from me, said hello, BS will call you back. He then carried on and walked out.

I called her back and apologised for his behaviour, said I thought he must have a guilty conscience if he thought I was speaking to a man and we went back to discussing her daughter. He stormed back in, screamed at me for telling her about our business and then left.

He didn't get home until 2:30am but sent his standard text message at 11:30pm.

"You have zero respect for me and zero respect for the privacy of our marriage and our problems. How dare you laugh at me with someone else. Have you lost everything you were. You are so wrong about me, I couldn't give a damn if you hang on my every word or not. You wont F with me again."

So, he gets home, goes out to the lounge and does who knows what before crawling in to bed about 3:30am.

No talking this morning, but he did dress the kids for me.

My friend does not believe in MB principals and told me that I should confront him, tell him that as he is only here for the kids and does not want to work on our marriage, that he should move to the other room and we should be free to date other people. She said that he only moved home to show me who was boss and cake eat and find his familiar doormat.

Arrghhh!

I don't know what to do! Please help.

He works tonight and has a band rehearsal until late so I will not see him all day.

It's official, I just got off the phone with him and he is only home for the kids. Does not love me "like that" and is very unhappy with me, blames me for everything and will not consider working on anything.

I asked him why he came home, he said it was only for the kids and he is not ready for anything with me at all, and might never be.

I cried and blubbered away. Funny thing is that crying to him is not a Love Buster - he kind of likes the vulnerable me so I hope it has some sort of affect on him.

What do I do?

2M2L,

I am a moderator and will move your thread to GQII for more responses, as you requested.

Hi 2M2L,

Don't get too freaked out right now about why he moved back, that fact that he is back makes Plan A much easier to implement. That being said, I am worried about his violent streak and what it might mean for you and your children.

As far as your Plan A goes you seem do be doing well, but there is one part that I need clarification on. What kind of snooping have you done to 1- Confirm the A and 2- Confirm that it's still active or not. It seems to me that he would like your role to extend no further than the boundaries of your yard and that nothing else in his life is your business. Well if this is his attitude get ready for BF 3,4,5 and 6 because they will be just around the corner when BF #2 doesn't do it for him anymore.

Remember that a big part of plan A is to expose the A and put as much pressure on it as you can. You need to know what's going on before you can do that, and to know you need to snoop.

Don't make any changes in how you deal with him, follow all the same Plan A rules, because only when the A crumbles will the work you have done make any difference at all. For now just know your making investment deposits for a possible future.

Recovery from my end is going well, we still need to work on openness as we tend to keep things in but I am much more attentive and aware that she is a "Words of Affirmation" I now understand that doing things for her is not what she wants or needs.

He just called me to see how I was. Then, he was annoyed that I sounded ok. I'm at work, I have to be. I took 30 minutes after I hung up to regain my control but that is not considered.

He also told me that they offered him the job. It's great news but he says he doesn't feel fantastic about it. He doesn't feel fantastic about anything at the moment.

I sent him a message "Congratulations! You're amazing at everything you do. You will ace this job no problem. They gave it to you because they know you're a gun. Knock'em dead tiger!"

It's actually very similar to a text he sent me in the early days of my new job. Except, he told me "I love you to pieces beautiful girl". How I long for the old days!

Thanks 2M2S, it was so nice to see you here!

You are right, the focus needs to be on plan A.

As far as snooping, I don't have access to his phone, he leaves his laptop around but I don't have his passwords, he has a new bank account in his name only and he refuses to tell me anything about HIS life.

My snooping is very very limited.

All I know is since we have been home together, he is around a lot of the time and attentive to me some of the time. He watches movies with me and chooses to be at home instead of elsewhere.

Mobile phone is usually on silent and face down so no access unless I catch him texting.

He doesn't think he has had an EA with BF1 and certainly doesn't think he is having any now. To him, no sex = no affair.

He doesn't want me to cook, clean, or be attentive to him etc.

Plan A is going to be really hard.

The BF1 is a silent friend from my end. She is rarely brought up in coversation and when I looked at his phone the other day there were only calls and texts from BF2, not BF1. Although, he might be deleting them.

The band that the BF1 and WH were in together has decided not to use my WH anymore. That cuts down on the work time for the two of them together too.

I don't see him during the day and don't know what he gets up to apart from making music in the home studio.

My snooping sucks!

I'm happy to hear that your R is moving along. Love languages are so important and are so simple when you read about them! Good luck with you M and all the positive changes. Christmas should be very special for you this year

The incident with the phone is a classic abuse technique. He doesnt like you to chat to friends because your relationships with others might undermine his attemps to control your life. He much prefers you alone and in tears.

The question is ---Is he abusive because he is having an a or is the a just part of his abusive behaviour. In other words which came first the a or the abuse..How long has the abuse been happening ?

Was he doing it before the a ?

Thanks Myopia.

When things are great between us he is a pin-up husband.

However, if we ever argued, which was rarely, he would always just jump in the car and go, not actually get verbally or physically abusive. This has been his pattern from the start of our relationship.

I have honestly only seen this "abusive" behaviour when I am impeding on his "privacy" or enforcing my boundaries.

He does have control issues and as a conflict avoider it is hard for me to separate the A and normal behaviour completely.

He is a conflict avoider too, and with that, a communication avoider.

I truly believe that if I was not following him around the house and standing in front of him whilst he was walking in to see the kids, there wouldn't have been physical abuse. I don't condone it at all, but I was certainly knowingly pushing his buttons.

He has never raised his voice to or hit our children. Not ever. Not even close.

He did see me on this forum the other night and knows that I am getting advice from somewhere and talking to friends.

He has not rasied his voice or used any bad language or escalated anything since we have been home together. Last night was the first time and on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the worst imaginable and 1 the least offensive, last night was a 1-2 at most.

I'm not sure how to get my boundaries back.

Good post-forum read for you:

"Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz
"Excuse me, Your Life Is Waiting" by Lynn Grabhorn

Good reminders of what you learned and why your boundaries are not about your husband, but about you, and only you.

That means that if bad language doesn't suit who you are, on purpose, then you don't use it, not even when you are angry, ESPECIALLY not when you are angry. Anger is a signal that you are "OFF" - so get to the bottom of that. Remember some of the processes - your safe place is waiting for you to get back in line with what you are about.

Breathe!

Let your husband be himself - no expectations. Have you figured out how you get to be strong and take a stand during all this? No victimness?

Thanks KA.

I will check out the books that you mentioned. I also dug out Boundaries again last night to finish the last 2/3.

You're right about the bad language. I have been so good and I let myself lose control. Breathe is a great recommendation.

He got home at 12:30am last night after the rehearsal and proceeded to climb into bed next to me and tell me about one of the guys in the band.

Apparently he sought out my WH for advice - he has a son the same age as our DS and his defacto wife is 20 weeks into the second pregnancy. He bumped into an old flame on the weekend and she is texting him and telling him she loves him and wants him etc and he is having trouble saying no.

My WH asked him if he was unhappy at home, he said no, and my WH told him to consider what he is going to lose and if it is worth it. The friend said he thinks he loves the ex-gf and is deciding what to do. My WH told him to consider that the ex-gf has no morals if she is considering breaking up a family etc and he should question her committment and would have to wonder if she would treat their R like that too.

I told WH that he gave some really good advice. He piped up that not all situations are like this and made it about our R and said that if people aren't happy they shouldn't be forced to stay together. I took the discussion back to his friend and said that if they loved each other they could make anything work. I mentioned NC, he said he told him that and he said no.

WH is really worried about him and said he was the last person he thought would have problems.

WH tried to cuddle me a few times last night and it was sweet. I had to go to the chemist for DS and on the way into work I dropped off a breakfast wrap for him.

We have our MC session today at 2pm. After our last session it was all over and I called the police later that night etc. How things can change.

It's awesome being able to PLAN A my husband from home.

We had MC this afternoon. He was extremely PO'd and proceeded to tell our C why. Basically, I am entirely to blame, a liar, he hates me, is only home for the kids, is home because that's what I wanted, I must be really happy because he's home, he is really sad at home, hates being home, hates being around me, misses me when he's with his female friends, doesn't think he can be married to someone he hates, I have ruined everything and he can't move on etc etc.

The MC told him to take back his power. He cannot be sad or angry because of me. He chooses to be mad, sad and angry and can choose alternatives. He told him to leave the past and focus on the present and the future and having the best relationship we can have, be it co-parents and/or married. He told him our sessions will only work if we do the homework, together, at home. MC is not a magic cure.

We all LOL when WH said that he does not think he can put up with my wrath were this to happen again. Yep, even he saw the humour. He explained the E as a wave of destruction, so I think I aced the tsunami of truth exposure test.

He wants to work on our R and then see if we can have a M that will be amazing. Hello, that's what I have been trying to tell him! He agrees we both have a long way to go before finding the in love feeling and wants to take it slowly. Again, duh!

Tells MC he baited me a few times to see if I would snap or tiptoe around issues and play happy families to keep the peace. Apparently I plan A'd it exceptionally well and he said he has been unable to ripple things but doesn't want me walking on eggshells and knows it's superficial.

I had a chance to say I want to set boundaries and want a H to love me dearly and respect, honour and adore me and allow me to do the same for him. I said it would be WH or someone new when the time was right, but my focus is on my family and building a R with WH.

We need to have 2 dialogues this week, both initiating one each so we'll see how that plays out. In my topic want to talk about boundaries and how I want a M to work for me and what upsets me about our old R.

So, we're going together to pick up the kids from school and all hang out tonight. He's out tomorrow, I'm out Friday. Must keep up plan A.

Ok, stuffed up again. Spoke to mutual friend who asked me if I knew OW was at rehearsal last night. Ah, no! Apparently they were not that close, she came late and left early and were average friends at best. Mutual friend was confused and surprised.

Anyway, on way to pick up kids I ask him in the car if she was there. He said no. I asked him if that was the truth and he said yes. Stupidly, I pushed it, told him it concerns my boundaries that he is not honest with me, regardless of our R, and he told me that he's leaving tonight. He will explain it to DD etc.

I told him not to make a decision in haste, begged him to reconsider, apologised for being demanding and prying into his business/friendships and made a massive mess of it. Major LBing.

He did his own thing with gardening and the car, I fed kids and he floated in and out. He took DD out for a drive and told me he was going to take as long as he needed to explain things to her...

I showered DS, put him to bed and cried why I fed him his milk. I jumped in the shower 30 minutes after they left which was when they got home. DD ran in excitedly with her icecream and movies.

I showered, dressed nicely, did make up and cruised out like all was peachy. Got DD ready for bed and put her in and then busied myself with beading.

He is in the studio now, but stopped past to say he will look for accom tomorrow as this is not working out and I only have myself to blame, would regret it etc. I said that was up to him. Felt sorry for kids that he came home for such a brief time and went the extra mile to tell them he was staying. He said again that he had explained it all to DD that he would have his own house and she could sleep over and she was happy. I said, with all due respect, she's 3 and she will look for you each morning and night and cry and still not understand.

He said I have screwed things up again with his band by sticking my nose in and causing arguments among the ranks. Whatever. I'm staying away from mutual friend again, I wish he hadn't told me anything. Why did he? I can't be trusted with information about OW.

So, I'm staying away again and hoping it will just die down and he'll change his mind and stay home. Where are you guys? I keep hoping I will get 2x4'd etc and have someone to help me stay on the straight and narrow and save my marriage.

I'm doing a [censored] job of this.

If he goes, might be time for Plan B afterall.

Do you have a plan b letter ready to hand him if he moves out?

You're just learning how to be emotionally autonomous, meaning you choose how you feel, independent of his behavior. Many people do not understand this aspect of Plan A - yet you are gaining control, bit by bit. Don't be defeated by your moments of weakness. Nobody does this perfectly. He sees enough of the things he loves about you to want to stay. But he also wants his cake, his lies, and when you call him to a higher ground he's not willing or ready to step up to, he blames you for his delinquency.

Be certain you place responsibility where it lies. You are not to blame for gathering information on his integrity and worthiness to be home. He wants you to feel guilty for his leaving. That is his responsibility and his only.

Keep breathing. The Four Agreements is a way for you to learn to not take his dream of life personally. To step out of his drama. Infidelity is not part of your dream of life, so he may have to leave. But you have been as inviting as possible. Do your best until he moves out to be unruffled, and consistent, loving and attractive. Do not let him guilt trip you into taking responsibility for his crap!

Thank you KA. I can breathe again!

I got up early and loaded an eblaster keylogger on his laptop. I figured now was my chance given he might be leaving soon anyway. I want to see how committed he is to his double life and if he really is looking for accommodation, when his rehearsals are, passwords for his accounts including email and banking and myspace entries.

I felt guilty about doing it this morning but I know from reading this board that it is essential too.

He was being his usual arrogant self this morning and DD ran into the bathroom where I was and said that she can live with daddy and DS can live with me!

I calmly went out and said that she was 3 and it was not appropriate to talk to her about big things that she doesn't understand. I said to DD that she and DS would always be together because daddy loves them both very much.

I also told him that I thought that him coming home felt like Christmas to the kids and that it would be better to give this another go without leaving them worse than before. I prefer that he stay and we come to an arrangement and leaving is up to him, not essential.

He said I had already had my chance.

Then he said I could take the convertible (his baby) as long as I cleaned it when I got home and got home early enough to get to his rehearsal. I agreed. I love the car and it is a way to ensure he will not leave during the day and he will have to put his bags into the car in front of me tonight if he's going tonight. He got them dressed and put them in the car for me. Why would he give the car to someone he hated and despised?

Thank you so much for your explanation. I know that I asked something tender but his blow up was way over target although he said it was because he wanted to know how I knew and who my source was. I did reveal it to him last night to keep the peace, he said it would help, but it was just more ammo.

It's a new day, I am refreshed and ready.

No - any suggestions would be really appreciated!

I can feel myself having a choice now but last night I was stupid to think I could control how much I would divulge and I thought that he would react differently - I forgot that I can only control myself, not him.

I love what you wrote and I will re-read it until it sinks in!

dont have much time, I have just returned from Holiday and I am still catching up at work.

but I have a few things to say:

1. He moved home WAY too soon! I think you know that. You are certainly doing the best you can with a bad situation. Ideally, the two of you should have mapped out a plan before he ever moved back. Somthing you both could agree upon. But he went and moved back in while you were gone. Further proof that this man has major control issuse.

2. Stop begging him. Please raise your right hand and state that you will NOT beg him ever again. You are a living, breathing woman who has value. You have children, and family, who love you dearly. You do not need to beg. I think that if you finally decide, in your own mind, that you will not beg him anymore, it will be easier to enforce your own boundaries.

3. You need to tell him that he is not allowed to say he "hates you" anymore. that is a horrible thing for him to say to you - and it needs to stop. I know he is in the fog, I know he has issues. But do not let him talk like that about you any longer. If it happens again, quietly tell him that you will not listen to that sort of talk any longer.

4. His relationship with OW#2, or any OW, is DEFINATELY YOUR BUSINESS. Do not let him change your thinking on that. Married men do not have private relationships with other women. If you allow him to continue to have friendships that are "none of your business" he will have another A. Period. He has had at least 2 already. as you all ready know, he would FREAK OUT if you were having a freindship with another man. Your WH isn't calling this realtionship an A, but it is still not appropratie. If it causes pain to you, his W, then it is not appropriate. You have every right to stand up for yourself. M people do not have friendships that exlude thier spouse.

5. dont you dare put him back on your bank account, or credit card. He is not ready for that. He always seems to have 1 foot out the door, do not give him access to the money to pay for his getaway.

sit down, and write a list of your boundaries. Do not share them with him yet. But write them down. And then look at them again tomorrow and adjsut. And again the next day.

He is using a classic controlling method. He knows that you want him home, so he manipulates you with that. he tells you it is only for the kids, that he hates you, that it is "all your fault" if he leaves. At some point, you need to look him square in the eye and say "it is not all my fault, and I will not allow you to say that to me any longer. I want to be married, to you, but I will not allow you to bully me any more. If you want to leave, then go. But quit saying that it is all my fault. I will not force you to stay - and I will not allow you to put the blame on me any longer.

You are not just working on saving your M. You are working on building a good M. When he acts like an arrogant spoiled child, and you give in, and sometimes even beg him to stay, you are teaching him that it is perfectly ok to act that way. The M you will have, is one where he stomps his foot, threatens to leave, and tells you he hates you in order to get his own way.

---I just read through what I wrote and wanted to add one more thing. Your mutual friend felt the need to tell you that OW#2 was at rehearsal. That is ok for him to do that. Dont let your WH beat you up over that. and dont say "why did he even tell me?". He told you because he felt like you needed to know. Your mutual friend was concerned -and told you about it. And then your WH flat out lied about it. Red flag there. Do not blame yourself for asking him about it - you were very brave to do that. Do not sweep those things under the rug.

Thank you for your response. I've missed you!!! I hope you had a wonderful holiday.


Agreed. If he stays, I will try and sit with him and establish some guidelines that we can both agree upon. He wants to live a separate life from me but sleeps naked next to me in bed and complains that I put a teddy bear between us. I do that so that I don't snuggle him in the night and offend him.


Agreed, raising right hand now and I pledge to not beg him for anything ever again. I need to be strong and ok no matter what he does and begging just gives him the power.


I have been a lot stronger and I do say to him that I don't want him to talk to me like that if he starts. I state that it is not appropriate and that I will not accept it anymore. He can speak to me later when he's ready to be civil.


I tried to have the boundary talk but he says that because we are not in a relationship he doesn't have to tell me anything and doesn't owe me anything. I find it a very difficult battle to be in. I know I deserve more, but I feel like I am unable to set my boundaries down without fear that he'll spin it into something he needs and threaten to leave. If he came home ready and willing to commit to the marriage, it would have been appropriate.


I offered it when I got home from holidays when I thought he was there to recommit to me and the marriage. He didn't want a bar of it and demands his independence and said he will never rely on my again and be in that position again where I can cut him off. He put $920 into my bank account on Tuesday although I don't know what he has left. I am sure he is planning for the future. His new job starts on Monday and he will have additional funds then too.


Great idea. I'll start straight away. Do I need 2 lists? One for Plan A and one for marriage?


Absolutely. He 100% believes that I asked him to come home and called me a liar in front of the MC when I said that I wanted to take it slow. He is determined to pass all the responsibility to me so that it's my fault if he leaves, just like you said.


I want to build a spectacular marriage, I just don't think we can even build a friendship with the way he behaves at the moment. I will add these things to my list too.


I told WH that I asked mutual friend about OW. I was protecting my source and made a decision to wear the anger to keep his relationship ok with mutual friend/his band leader. I think it was wrong to cover for him but it's done now. I was calm and curious when I asked him and actually wouldn't have reacted at all if he'd said yes.

It was the lying straight faced to me that really hurt. I want to believe that he can change. He wanted to find out how I knew and turn it into something it wasn't. He suceeded. Next time I will probably not say anything. Bravery is ok but I feel stupid when I realise the collateral damage to the kids that I have caused. I think I need to remain absent from the marriage until he is ready to commit and just keep up Plan A from an emotional distance with no R pressure.

Thanks WOF for your response. You are an amazing support to me!

I had a handful crisps last night and offered some to him. He said, you did all that hard work and now you're just going to eat [censored] and put all the weight back on? It was a pretty quiet comment facing the wall and I asked him to repeat it and he didn't.

I said it was a small treat and I'm doing just fine.

At least he's noticed that I've dropped weight. I could take it as a kind of warped compliment. Lucky I'm getting loads of compliments elsewhere. It's very dry on the WH front and no SF either.

I am not sure what to say about this, but something just doesn;t feel right here. The problem is, he just moved in without your advance knowledge. So you weren't able to find out what his motives were.

Well done!!!


no. not 2 lists. one, for M. What would happen if you come up with two lists now, just to "win him back" and then later switch to the "real" list? That would not be fair to him. He needs to get a good picture of what you expect from him in a M. You aren't going to be a bully, and make huge demands. Boundaries are small, simple, acheiveable.

share your list here.

Gotta run - chat more later!!

Just got home and WH was vacuuming and the kitchen/lounge is tidy. I always leave it relatively tidy, but he almost looks like he was taking pride in "his" house.

I asked him which cloth to use on the car and he said leave it, he'll do it. I told him he asked me to do it this morning and he said don't worry about what I said!?!?!

He'll go to rehearsal soon and packed up the vacuum cleaner pretty fast when I got home and jumped back into the studio.

He also told me he would put my washing line up on the weekend.

No LB's. Just keeping to myself.

Breathing and almost smiling!

He played with the kids and left 1 1/2 hours after he said he would. He also agreed to have tea with the kids and got me a chocolate biscuit.

I don't get it. I just spoke to mutual friend who said he spoke to WH today and he didn't mention anything at all. Apparently the entire game is on me. Mutual friend asked me if WH left and followed through with his threat and I had to say no. We're both confused. He was busy and will call me later.

I checked the eblaster tonight and there are no surprises. Applying for jobs and being responsible and not wayward at all. About 5 emails to OW over last few weeks but they are all professional and do not include any friendship bits. I guess they happen in person or on the phone, but if there was something going on wouldn't you say something in an email?

So, house looks great, no mention of him leaving at all and told me and the kids he'd see us later tonight, after rehearsal with OW and new band. Strange how he doesn't mind telling me about that one.

It looks like I have a chance to plan A for longer. Perhaps he is in the mode of loving me and home/kids more than leaving and just throwing games in to test me to find my boundaries? I'd rather he just ask me or listen to me!

Well, after he'd been gone for 2 hours he called me to see how things were going. Weird and completely unexpected. I was interested in his conversation and did not apply any pressure about anything.

He told me OW brought her dad to the rehearsal. he is undergoing treatment for cancer and wants to spend time with her. I was happy that he was there. Great, I thought, maybe they are looking after her interests and keeping her in line.

But, then I questioned his integrity. Maybe it was just a story that he made up so that I would leave him alone.

He was really sweet to me on the phone and said he was going to go for a drive after the rehearsal and enjoy his "me" time. Might go to the beach or go to the backpackers where he used to "live". I said, to stay? He laughed and said no, just a visit.

He said, see you soon.

Then, called me back a minute later and asked me why I was counting beads the night before. I said I was making a necklace. He told me it really affected him in a strange way but he didn't want to talk about it. I said maybe later. He said no, he wouldn't be coming straight home.

I had a bath and sent him a message asking if he wanted one too. He said no, too dangerous for kids to leave water in and it would be cold when he got home. I wrote back "Awwh. I love having you naked, hot, wet and slippery in the next room. Maybe another time then!".

When he got home at 2am, he woke me up to show me a wind deflector on the car and encouraged me to go for a drive. I was in my short leopard print nightie with no knickers so said sure. I jumped in and took it for a spin while he stayed home with the kids.

He then chatted for a bit about his night and told me how good the band and vocalists sounded and that OW sang like a Mother F'er. I spoke up and said that was no way to talk in this house and a completely inappropraite thing to call anybody, even OW. He said it was a music term that everyone uses and I told him it was rubbish. He didn't need to drop to that level. No LB, just small boundary setting and we left it at that. He said that sometimes people say things you don't appreciate. I agreed. He said, like your text message. I said, it was a joke. (sort of)

He went to the studio to work on his music and I woke at 4am, dreaming about a massive pain in my neck, and I woke up with it. He wasn't in bed and I found him in the kitchen on the internet when I got the heat pack. Said he was changing his song lyrics again.

Eblaster showed no activity though, just website updates, very boring.

He spooned with me this morning when the alarm went off, very light and shy, but lovely, no talking, helped get the kids ready for school and put them in the convertible for me to take today.

He seems to have done a 180 on wanting to leave so I'll just go with the flow.

I'm still very annoyed that he is playing games with me and don't really know what happened last night after rehearsal, but I will put it out of my mind. I am making up stories and nothing is the truth but the truth.

I will keep up eblaster, hopefully his mobile bill will come next week when I am home first and not him, and I'll get his log on info soon for banking etc.

Cautiously moving ahead.

----Edited to add that he just called me, it's 9am and he got to bed after 4am. He is looking for info on the car for a sale and was really nice to me----

Had to call him back about the car and he said "what's up babe?".

I'm at my forum tonight so he's with the kids until 11:30ish tonight. I'll see if he still loves me by then...

Draft 1:

Be completely open and honest always
Do not hide phone calls, text messages or emails from me
Do not invest into friendships with women when I am not involved or considered a part of the deal
Be open to me sharing in your life, your friends, your job
Be truthful with me always, even if it will hurt me
Allow me time to heal from my hurt
Use one joint bank account
Add your name on the house title and mortgage
Be accountable for your time
Use the MB principals to establish a spectacular M and work on it always
Don't run when things get tough, communicate and let us work through things, I want to make you happy
Allow me to communicate with you when I am unhappy

Any tips?

He called me again re car. All happy & ok.

I asked him where he went last night, told him someone I work with saw him with a girl at the casino. He laughed and said it was [censored] but told me he did get a coffee with the OW after rehearsal.

Apparently it ended at 11:30pm, they went for coffee (without her dad), he drove home at 12:30am and got home at 1:15am. Was working on the car in the garage but didn't wake me up unitl 2am.

He said "this isn't going to work is it" after my request for information. I told him he had a choice to tell me the truth or not and I was just asking to save face at work and because I wanted to ask. A lot don't know I'm separated etc and it was embarrasing for me to not know things my husband was doing. Like, what if someone told me he was holding hands with some girl. He said that was [censored]. I said it was an example.

Anyway, I was trying to catch him out and get info, I got some, he's mad and I guess still deciding what he wants.

I need to set those guidelines...but I am sure he'll throw them back at me and say no way. No M, no reconciliation.

When he was answering me he was fine about it, but then he seemed to think he shouldn't need to tell me and then got mad. Is he questionning his committment to staying out of the M?

I'm frustrated and confused.

I know I write a lot but I need to vent or I think I will EXPLODE and or BURST INTO TEARS and or CALL HIM AGAIN! I'm at work and can't do any of those things except call him again and that would be really really stupid!!!! My blood is boiling.

Just spoke to him about me being out tonight and his needing to look after the kids.

He said he feels trapped.

He hated me putting him on the spot this morning and asking him questions. I have no right.

He said he is not in a happy marriage therefore he can do whatever he wants with whoever he wants and I am not to say anything about it.

He said he worked his butt off at rehearsal and then had a coffee with a friend and really enjoyed it. He can do whatever he wants with whoever, whenever and I cannot say anything.

I said whilst we are married it is considered an affair to be with someone else and it was inappropriate.

He said I have trapped him in the house and am happy about it. I want him there whether he is happy or not. I said I would prefer he fall in love with me and work on the marriage, I do not want to trap him.

He said we are meant to be working on our relationship not the marriage and I am wasting my money with the C if I don't get it. I have trapped him.

He said he wants nothing more than to move out and get his own place and have his own life.

He pushed me for the name of my source from work. I said I would not tell him because he wants to cause problems. He said to tell him or he'd leave. I said no good would come from it. He said then I'll leave. I said then you'll leave. He hung up.

WOF - I didn't beg him to stay, although I wanted to more than ever. I didn't plead with him and I stayed calm and strong. I feel panicky that he is getting his stuff in order to go. I had a feeling he was only staying until he had money from new job. I hate that he has so much power over me and I feel so reliant on him still.

I have invested so much in the marriage and he is just stomping all over my heart. It hurts so much.

I will not contact him now. He knows he has to get the kids tonight so I have given him enough info. I'm scared.

Should I have done something differently?

What do I do now?

It may be helpful for you to write. Don't feel bad about that.
I'm sorry you have to cope with this, and wish it were otherwise.

Just spoke to him about me being out tonight and his needing to look after the kids.

He said he feels trapped.

I don't believe anyone held a gun to his head and made him marry. It's true that he can leave, and divorce, but it isn't right. What kind of man says and does things like this? This is NOT a rhetorical question. Please consider it, and talk to us about it.


He hated me putting him on the spot this morning and asking him questions. I have no right.

You DO have a right. He can refuse to answer, but you are his wife, and you have the right to ask. One of the things you should be asking is "Do I really even WANT this guy?" I am not suggesting an answer for you, but you should be thinking about it.

He said he is not in a happy marriage therefore he can do whatever he wants with whoever he wants and I am not to say anything about it.

I never realized that if a person is not happy with something, they can do whatever they want. What a novel idea.

I suspect it won't work, but he can try it. I mean, you really can't stop him. You can remove yourself from his madness.


He said he worked his butt off at rehearsal and then had a coffee with a friend and really enjoyed it. He can do whatever he wants with whoever, whenever and I cannot say anything.

You have choices too. While you cannot really make him live up to his vows, you are also free to act.

I said whilst we are married it is considered an affair to be with someone else and it was inappropriate.

He said I have trapped him in the house and am happy about it. I want him there whether he is happy or not. I said I would prefer he fall in love with me and work on the marriage, I do not want to trap him.

He said we are meant to be working on our relationship not the marriage and I am wasting my money with the C if I don't get it. I have trapped him.

If he says this again, simply open the door for him, and show him out. Tell him he can leave at any time.

He said he wants nothing more than to move out and get his own place and have his own life.

We are free to act how we wish to act. A person can rob a bank if they choose, but they are not free to choose the consequences for these kinds of acts. He can move out, but he gets to pay for it himself. I hope if he does that the law requires him to pay support.

Make him TRULY free. Let him experience the consequences of his choices with no help at all.

Too many waywards want to jump off the cliff, but they want someone to catch them before they hit the ground. If he jumps, don't catch him this time.

He pushed me for the name of my source from work. I said I would not tell him because he wants to cause problems. He said to tell him or he'd leave. I said no good would come from it. He said then I'll leave. I said then you'll leave. He hung up.

He is a bully. Don't tell him anything.

WOF - I didn't beg him to stay, although I wanted to more than ever. I didn't plead with him and I stayed calm and strong. I feel panicky that he is getting his stuff in order to go. I had a feeling he was only staying until he had money from new job. I hate that he has so much power over me and I feel so reliant on him still.

You will be more attractive to him if you do stay strong, and if you show him the door when he tries to bully you. I also hate that he seems to have so much power over you. You should love him, but -
But, when you love someone you let them learn life's hard lessons so they can improve themselves, and learn, and grow.
Let him learn.

I have invested so much in the marriage and he is just stomping all over my heart. It hurts so much.

You have done well to try. Trying is no guarantee of success though. It hurts, because you care. Caring is good, and you know it is. It does however, open us up to pain when the one we care about does not show care in return.

I will not contact him now. He knows he has to get the kids tonight so I have given him enough info. I'm scared.

I think you need to be looking at plan B sometime soon. Because you love him, you have a hard time standing up to him. It would be easier if you had no contact with him.


Should I have done something differently?

I think you did well considering your history with him. I do recommend you develop some standard phrases that you can recite to him when he starts bullying you.

Things like -
"When you are ready to talk to me in a civilized manner, I may speak with you. Until then, I see no reason to even try to talk to you."


What do I do now?

You need a plan.
Step back, look at the big picture. Answer the questions (above) to yourself.

If you do want to be with him, you need to get his attention first, before you can get anywhere with him.

I think that includes showing him he can't run all over you any longer.

What do you think?

SS

At 1pm he called me twice (I was on the phone) so I called him back. He calmly asked me for the internet banking password. I said why and he hung up.

At 3pm I called him after my meeting and asked him what he did. He said it didn't matter. He wanted to see if a deposit had gone in for the car but he's fixed it - deposits only happen overnight anyway so it was a power test in my eyes.

I said that I didn't say no, just why and he hung up. He told me that I had treated him like a [censored] and that he would be moving out tomorrow. Then, he hung up.

Does anyone have a PBL to share????? Plan B is back on. I really didn't want to have to go there but I feel like I have no choice anymore. I am so tired. I found out today that my boss knows WH came to my work and called my colleague and made threats. They are all worried about me and my work is definately suffering. Look at all the time I spend on here. It's become my blood supply.


A man who wants to put all the blame on me for our failed marriage so that he can dust himself off and hold his head high and tell his friends and family that he tried and that if I wasn't such a b1tch it would have worked.


I'm starting to wonder how much I can put up with and if he will ever be the husband that I deserve. Maybe the kind-hearted loving man will never return.


I want the plan B letter ready to go - then I can stick it on his butt if he leaves tomorrow. I can't handle the revolving door with me as the doormat anymore. It's not fair. I deserve so much more. The kids are going to be devastated to lose daddy again. They have loved having him home, me too. My birthday is in 3 weeks and Christmas in 6 and it all looks so horrible.


Yes, I can plan B him and let him choose to actually work ont the M and choose me instead of dragging me through the mud.


He no longer has access to any of our money, nor does he pay it. Child support will be tough because I earn more and technically may need to pay him depending on the custody arrangements. I am going to struggle to pay for the mortgage and it is only in my name. When he sells the car in the next 5 days or so it will give him 73k cash. Thanks to eblaster I know that he has been looking at Hyundai's and BMW's.

I don't want to catch him unless he is jumping with all he has back into the marriage. It makes me sick to think he can treat me like this and be ok with it.


I will not tell him anything. I shouldn't have played the game anyway. Knowing the truth and pressing him for it was stupid. I should have thought it through and realised I would be causing problems.

I haven't asked him to stay following today's threats so I wonder if he is escalating the timeline etc to push my buttons. I actually think I will be happier when he's gone.


Help with PBL required please!


Thank you! I do say something similar but need to say it earlier in the discussions!


So, is a PBL getting his attention? I feel like I am running out of time and damaging things more. He came home too early and I feel we are all paying for it. I want my husband 100% committed to the M, not like this.

Thanks SS. you've helped me to breathe again!

I was taught Plan B is not to be used as a weapon but only when your mind and heart are in sync. It's not to be used as a threat to get him to come home, but to protect you from losing all the love you have for them if they get their acts together and come home to work on the marriage.

I have my plan B letter at work and will post it tomorrow if other people don't get here first with it.

Plan B isn't designed to make him do anything, but that doesn't work. If you need to protect your love for him then Plan B is something well thought out, prepared for and implemented with no going back.

It was so hard to not see or talk to my WH in the beginning. But I had NO CHOICE...

So, what are you motives for doing a Plan B. Do you have your money worked out, are there kids and custody issues worked out, do you have an intermediary. Are you truly prepared to not have ONE THING to do with WH?

Tough questions and for sure there is no judgement. I just want you to truly understand what you are doing and why. So that you don't weaken and wish you had done this or that differently.

Yeah, the PBL is for YOU, not him. It's to tell him what it would take for you to be able to deal with him again. And that, if he's unwilling to meet the steps in the PBL, then you are healthier without him. That's it.

Like this. Utter bull crap. Until he stops getting his fix, don't listen to a single word he says; it's not him.

Protect yourself, he can crash and burn, and may eventually pull his way back up to you. But that's on HIM, not you. For now, all you have to worry about is not getting dragged down with him.

I'm not an expert but I'll give you my thoughts:

My sister! I want you to know I think of you often. I am sorry I am not on the computer during your difficult evenings, and I am so grateful to see other people sending you such great posts.

I want to send you several messages today, because I have several thoughts to share, but first let me start with your boundary list. I liked most of what you said on there, and jayne had some great suggestions, except that I would argue about this point:


not in this case. Not now.
He has a bad track record with finances, and jobs.
If he were to come to you and ask to be joined on the mortgage, and bank account, then you should prayerfully consider it. But you should not make this one of your boundaries.He needs to show a lot more financial responsibility first. You have all ready mortgaged your home for $75,000 so he could but a fancy car - when he did not even have a job, and was not even committed to you. Do not let him have access to your home or finances yet. if you had put him on your bank account when he first came back - he would have wiped you out yesterday to use the money for a new apartment. You can love him - but be wise about your finances. Your childrens future is depending on it.

2 other things I keep thinking of:

1. what is the deal with that darn car?? Is it in his name alone? Can he really sell it without your signature? If so - that is a bunch of BS and you need to put a stop to it. the purchase of that car has put your home in jeopardy. I know you are not emotionally ready to file any paperwork - but I really wish you would get some legal advise here. Ideally, if he sells the car, he should give you half. You put your half in the bank, in your name alone, to help pay your house payments. if you do not get half, at the very least you should make a stipulation that he gets the cash from the car - but he does not get any further part of your homes equity. this should be in writing. Do not fear his anger - the man tells you he is going to leave you every day, and it is all your fault. He gets angry even when you do nothing to him - so he may as well get angry over the car equity.


2.child support.
Ok, listen to me here. YOU GET FULL CUSTODY OF THE KIDS. fight for that. Do not fear his anger. when it comes to the kids, you need to put aside your personal desire to be with your H, and fight for your kdis like the Mamma Bear. this is not meant to be mean to him. This is to protect their future. If your WH does file for D, and gets the kids half of the time, you will constantly worry about them. Listen to me on this, and stand firm. After you get full custody, he can still see them. You would never stop him from seeing his children. But you need to have full custody to be able to make wise decisions for them later. Set this in your mind right now, and never again question yourself on this. He feels like it is ok to come and go as he pleases anytime he is not "happy". That is not the type of man who should have half custody. If he wants to call you a b!tch for seeking full custody, ignore him. Your children need you to be strong on this issue, for them.

I will write more later, but something I thought of this morning:
I want you to consider the fact that you are not in recovery. this is not what recovery looks like. He has moved home - but tells you he hates you, he is only home for the kids, he is trapped, you do not have a R, blah blah blah. This is not recovery, and you should not act like it is.
He moved back in too quickly - but that is not your fault. He moved in while you were out of town! The next time he moves out,tell him in your kind, loving, voice, that you need to protect your heart, and your childrens, and he should not move back into the home until he is 100% comitted to you, your family, and the children. Moving back and forth is terribly damaging to the kids. And don't let him tell you he can stay there just for them, and not have a relationship with you. That is crap. You live there. People do not move into your home who hate you. If you had a co-worker who hated you and called you names, would you say "thats ok. Move into my home. Sleep in my bed, right next to me"? no way.

You are getting some really good help. CP made some good points, and I love WOF5's post, and you should read it through two or three times.

So, is a PBL getting his attention?

This is what Dr Harley says about plan B - Copied from another part of the MB website.


Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.


What Dr Harley says, goes along with what you are feeling and describing to us.

I feel like I am running out of time and damaging things more. He came home too early and I feel we are all paying for it. I want my husband 100% committed to the M, not like this.


Here is more on plan B.

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

Note the part about absence making the heart grow fonder. That is what I meant about getting his attention.

I believe in this case, you are being abused - emotionally, and mentally. Dr Harley has this to say about plan B in cases of abuse.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.


Having read how your H treats you, I don't think there is much hope for him. Or for you to be with him and live any kind of a normal life. It looks to me like he uses you any way he can, and abuses you if you won't go along with him.

The plan B letter is supposed to be a love letter.

It should tell him that you love him, but that it's too painful to be with him if he won't care for you and protect you as a H should a W, and that you won't see him, or speak with him until he is ready to do these things.

It should explain how to communicate with you through an intermediary (but you have to get one first, and have them agree to help you.) and give contact information for that intermediary.

It should map out the way back -
That is, tell him what he has to do before you will consider reconciliation.

If you lived in the USA, I would suggest you just give him the MB counseling center phone number, and tell him to call Steve H to work it out. My reason for saying this is that he is so far away, I can't see him ever turning around, but Steve H could assess his chances and help him get there if your H really wanted to try.

To reconcile, he would have to agree to live the four rules.
Four Rules for a successful marriage

I don't mean to discourage you, but I know my words are not very encouraging. Please look at the four rules, and tell us the chances that he will ever agree to them. You knew him before, and you would know better than we would.

From where I sit, he is nice when he thinks it will get him something, but he is always looking out for himself, and no one else. Please tell me what you think about this statement. You know his history, which we do not.

If you do go to plan B, make the letter very short. Length is only useful when the other party wants to hear what you have to say. If they are not in the mood to learn, brevity is best.


This is the sample Plan B letter in Surviving an Affair.

Keep in mind this is a letter from a husband to his wife, and is just to give you an example. You would have to modify it to fit your situation.

SS




Dear WS,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OP possible. I foolishly pursued my career without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most. We are now both suffering for my mistakes. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a new life for the both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until your end your relationship with OP once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. Our friends, Jane and Paul, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children whenever you would like. But I will not be there when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through Jane and Paul.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OP, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are with OP. I still love you but cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OP and are willing to follow the measures that were suggested to ensure total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage someday. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married, and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are seeing OP.

With All My Love,


Here is a link to some more plan B letters.
Plan B letters

Pepperband posted this on another thread, and I really thought you should take a look at it:


the article actually refers to a Bipolar Persoanlity Disorder. I am, by no means, an expert. But my understanding is that the Bipolar Perosnality Disorder differs from the usual diagnosis of Bipolar.

The thing that keeps nagging at me is this: Your H really is very sick. His behavior is not the typical WH stuff. When you post that he has been very kind and loving to you one day, and you hope he is still in love with you when you get home, it breaks my heart. You have so much love to give. Any man would be blessed to have you for a W. You are worthy to be loved, every day, all day.

Please keep posting here. Do not worry that you are posting too much. Somethimes I worry that you do not post often enough!

I have a little time left, before I go home for the day, so let me share another story with you.

Have you ever heard the analogy about the frog in the boiling water?
If you toss a frog into a pot of boiling water, he will quickly jump out. The water is hot - and he knows it will kill him, so he jumps out.

If you put a frog in a pot of cold water, and slowly turn up the heat, he will slowly boil to death. after all, the water is not hot when he first jumps in, so he is not afraid. As the heat is gradualy turned up, he feels uncomfortable, but still does not fear for his life. By the time the water is boiling, it is too late, and he dies.

the reason I share that story with you is not because I think you are in boiling water! the analogy is this: When things slowly start to get "strange" sometimes we don't realize it, because it is happening too slowly. We are slowly adjusting to the new temperature. And as things continue to get "stranger" each day, we forget what "normal" is supposed to be like.

if you had met your H today, with his current behavior, you would not likely date him. If you had just met him, given him a bag of M & M's with a nice note, and then he threw them out the window, you would say "that was really weird" and you would not date him any longer. Or, if you were dating him and he said "I hate you" you would look at him and think "that was really horrible, I am going to run from him". But these behaviors have appeared slowly, and you have gradually gotten used to them. i know that part of you recognizes that he is not treating you well - and that is why you hide the "bad stuff" from your family. He has moments when he treats you like a queen and you long for a life time of that. But with him it is always one extreme or another - rarely a happy in-between.

I am not going to say that your situation is hopeless - I do not know you personally, and I certainly do not know him. God still works miracles. and your H could get into some super intense counseling, and learn to change his behaviors. But what I am hoping to truly show you is this: His behavior is not acceptable. It is not normal. He has tossed you into a pot of cold water and the heat is at medium now. You could do absolutely everything he asks, 100%, all the time, and he would still find ways to blame you. Please do not take the balme on yourself any longer. Do not bear that burden.

when I was putting up with my Ex's horrbile behaviors, a close freind said this to me:

He can crap in your cup, but you don;t ahve to drink it.

So now I say that to you. He has crapped in your cup. But you don't have to drink it.

Wow, thanks Queenie. I have read a lot of your posts and empathise with your tough situation. You're a fighter and I really respect and admire the stand you are taking.

I unfortunately have a personality which tries to manipulate and control and after reading your post, I realise I will be implenting plan B as an ultimatum to get him back. I thought it was for the right reasons, and many are valid, but I think part of me wants to punish him too.

Can I go NC? Sigh. I crumble so easily because I invest so much value in the minor good things that happen and may not be able to tell if he's sincere or not. I wonder if I could stick it out. I also wonder if it would push my WH too far and he would retalliate somehow? Could be silly, but...

I have a lot to think about and I thank you for your honesty.

I get that he says things in anger that are not true. I also get that I say stupid things to him to test his committment in our broken marriage which is very stupid. I do try to not listen to the crap but I let it affect me regardless.

My promise is to stand for the things that I believe in for marriage and let him have his choice to participate or not. I need to work on my boundaries and present them to him at a suitable time for both of us.

He hasn't left the house. He was there when I got home last night and I had a great conversation with him. I apologised for relating to him as his old self. It's easy to give in to the bitterness and hurt. He cleans the whole house and looks after the children and is civil to me and I look for the anger and hurt and feed off the things he is not doing for me.

I told him my stand without expectations. He did apologise for hurting me emotionally and physically and accepted that he was also to blame. It's nothing but a start, but I am really going to try and distance myself from the hurt and just live in the present.

Thank you CP

Thanks Jayne.

I will rework this and really appreciate your input. I'll have some quiet time over the weekend so I'll make it happen and post the new version back up here.

Thanks WOF. I'm so glad you're home - I missed you!


Agreed. He starts his new job on Monday and will hopefully begin to be more financially responsibile. The car is technically sold now. We are currently talking about what to buy and I am trying to talk him out of purchases at the moment. I may be able to put a stop on the sale, but it would be difficult and I actually don't think it would be prudent at the moment.

He is open to suggestions re money but I will not let my guard down and put my house and kids at risk. I hope he will be reasonable.


I know you are right. I feel terrible and guilty about it but you are right. I am the more stable parent both financially and emotionally and it is the best thing to do for the kids. I do fear his response but I still hope the tide will turn before it gets to this.


You are so right. After our conversation last night when I got home at 11pm, I feel a lot better about it but we have a long way to go. I still have no certain feeling that he will stay. In fact, DD said this morning that Daddy, DS and DD would be moving to a new house. I know he's trying to paint a rosey picture to them so that they are happy that he leaves and not sad. Puuuulllleeeeeaaaaassssseeeee. It kills me to hear things like that out of the mouth of my beautiful innocent 3 year old. It isn't right.

We had SF this morning. I actually asked for it and he said no, he doesn't want to give me false hope. I told him I wanted the physical connection with my husband, and couldn't possible have anymore emotional investment that I currently had. He said no but then agreed. I didn't second guess it, just jumped into bed and enjoyed it.

He didn't look at me like someone that he hated (it was the opposite) although I know I'm not allowed to have false hope. I really did just want the physical touch and it felt great. He fell asleep, I showered and went to work and didn't linger or kiss him or make it personal. He called me this afternoon and told me that he was upset that I was selfish this morning. I said I was selfish but not sorry. He didn't say anything else. The conversation was light and great so I didn't place too much attention on it.

Mutual friend just called and WH called him and said OW has a new gig with a band that does 220 shows per year. It will involve lots of travel and 4 nights a week of hard work. WH helped her get the job but I think it will create extra distance between them. WH told me about it last night and said she has a new boyfriend (that he doesn't approve of) and that's why they don't hang out much anymore.

Things could be changing.

I can see so much of my husband in this article. One psychologist said he had it, one didn't and it's very subjective. He won't go on medication and no other programs seem to cater for that. He is the closest now to changing that I have ever seen.

I realise I deserve more but everything in me tells me to fight for my marriage and make it amazing and stay married to the father of my children. I am willing to accept that this may not happen. I am ready to accept that I will be amazing in another marriage with another man if that is my destiny.

Sometimes I really feel like that frog!

I guess my previous post to you says why I am still drinking from that cup, but I know eventually I will lose myself.

Thank you for telling me that I am worth more than this. I know it has taken a long time to sink in and you have been consistent and beautiful and really helped me to believe in myself again and regain my confidence. I thank God for leading me to this website and for leading you to me too. I believe that you are my guardian angel!

It's Saturday morning and DD and I just made pancakes. DS and WH are still asleep.

Last night was an ok night. He told me I used him for SF because I said it was just SF and I didn't expect anything emotionally. He apologised for hurting me throughout this and also said that he thinks he will wake up in a few months with major regrets about the way he has treated me.

I know he is still lying to me, or not telling me the whole truth, whichever way you look at it. It hurts, but I know that when I press him the opposite happens. He gets mad that I am controlling him etc.

Last night OW called him and he had his passport out and gave her his passport number, full name and expiry. When he got off the phone I said I didn't want to make up a story and asked him why. He said why do you think? I said you're travelling with her (she has a new job with new international band, Bali next week) or you're getting an apartment together. He smiled and said it's none of my business. I had to earn the right to be trusted.

GAMES!!!! He has told me that he has no plans to move out anywhere at this stage and that he is not travelling with her - just not at the time I asked him. I am trying to think of an innocent reason but can't come up with one.

I am going to be patient for a week or so and see if I can draw it out. He is telling me more and more and keeping me more informed about so much of his life. He is not telling me when he works with the OW but mutual friend is doing that. I can definately see an improvement. I want honesty but he thinks I'm controlling and untrustworthy.

He went out and fetched me some movies last night that I'd mentioned and when he got home he thought I was asleep and rubbed my back and pushed the hair from my face and stroked my face for a while before waking me. He didn't move his hand and then he spooned me and said, good night babe. I said what, he said again, good night babe. Maybe it was intentional. He is sweet so far in his dreamy state today. We have the kids swimming and dinner at my sister's house although I don't think he'll come.

He put his friends wedding invitation on the couch next to me last night to remind me that it's next Saturday. I have decided to dress up and go along and really have fun with him. No one at the wedding knows we're separated so it will be easy to play happy families.

So, there you have it. Hopefully things are getting better. I'm in reasonably good spirits. I started to read Women Who Love Too Much last night and it's confronting and it's me. I'll stick with it but trying to plan A at the same time is hard. I feel a bit I am woman hear me roar.

I'll sign in later and ramble when I can!

I wanted to copy another post here for you to read. Just some things to think about. This is an excerpt from one of Dr Harleys articles on this web site. I copied it from one of Melody Lanes posts on another thread.

By the way - I am SO GLAD you are reading that book (Women Who Love Too Much). It was a huge eye opener for me.

When my ex H first left, I was a lot like you. Bent over backwards to try to make him happy. When he would get angry at me, and say horrible things, I would apologize to him for making him angry. He always said hurtful things out of angeer- during our M, and after, and I always made an excuse for him of: "he only said that becuase he was angry at the time"

I have come to realize that saying horrible things is NOT ok, whether you or angry or not.

I had a dear friend who kept telling me "His A was NOT your fault, do not listen to that any longer. You do not need to settle for crumbs from him, you have value, you deserve to be treated with respect"

it took me a long time, but I finally started to understand what she was saying. His A wasn't my fault. No matter what he said. I wasn't a bad W, no matter what he said.

I am much healthier now, and when I look back I feel disgusted that I took so much crap from him. At times I have pangs of regret, that I allowed him to walk all over me, and I basically said "thats ok, walk all over me some more"

So I think I understand why Dr Harley says that putting up with too much of that horrible behaviour can cause deep, long lasting emotinal scars.

that book - Women Who Love Too Much - also helped me later, in other relationships, after my D. i know you are not ready for a D, or dating yet!! But I will share with you that after I had been D'd about a year, I started dating a guy who also was not good for me. He only gave me occasional scraps of attention, and I settled for that because I felt un-worthy of anything better. I figured I was damaged and this was the best I could do. About that time I, read that book, and I realized that since I had "failed" at my last R, I was trying to "fix it" by being succesful at this R. I was trying to make it work - but this guy was just not good relationship material.I finally got tired of it (after about 9 months!) I was constantly wondering when he would call, and whether or not he was seeing other women. I finally just made myself no longer avialable to him (it was hard to do - I was very lonely!!!) and that is when I met my current H.

My current H has definately shown me that there ARE good men in the world. My new H would swim across the ocean, climb the highest Mountain, walk acrss the desert to be with me. he can not believe my last H cheated on me!

You have set an awesome goal for yourself. You want a fantstic M! That is a very good goal to have. But it is possible that your WH is just not able to do that. He may not be emotionally stable enough to be a H. Of course, I may be wrong about that. Only you can tell. and when you are fianlly ready to make your fianl decision, you will know.

Keep reading that book.

Thanks WOF. It's a great article and one I do not remember reading, or if I did I did not see its relevance to me at the time.

I am hopeful that because he does miss me when he's gone and feels some positive affect from the plan A, than maybe there's a chance. His fog is deep although every now and then I think I see something...

The important thing I got for the article is to realise that a plan B might be necessary but will probably not work. I was putting my eggs in that basket as a last chance so that's a bit scary and confrontational.

Is it better just to concede defeat and ask for a D and just move on as friends? Maybe it just isn't worth the pain? I don't know. I want to believe I can do it but I guess I'll know sooner or later.

You're right when you said I am not ready for D, but I met someone through the forum who is lovely and it's given me some confidence that I can do this and find someone who will take me and the kids and I and have a truly rewarding marriage. I'm not dating him - sorry for the confusion - he's just someone who has shown me that it's possible to develop feelings for someone as a mother of someone else's children. I thought I was past all that.

Thank you for sharing your story with me. I guessed that there were similarities as you have been so helpful and caring to me. You have become my poster girl for getting it right and I will keep up with the book. It will either give me a clearer perspective in this marriage if we succeed to recovery stage or prepare me for a wonderful new man in my life.

Wow, that's hard to write, harder to believe, but I'll get there.

We had a really pleasant day today.

Kids and I went shopping, came home and cooked bacon and eggs for brunch with WH and went to swimming. Went shopping all together as a family on the way home and hung out getting food and fooling around.

I stopped to look at a ring that I want to buy. He told me to try it on. I want to buy it as an incentive for some sales at work and as a gift to myself for starting again on my own.

He said that he will give me the money for it. I didn't answer or say much. It is from the car profit money but I don't want a ring from my stb-ex-husband! He can buy it for me when he wants to reconcile or not at all. I didn't say that, but I thought it with lots of verocity.

Oh, 2 things happened:-

On the way to swimming DD mentioned Christmas. I told WH he needed to let me know what he wanted to do. He said that we would all be together at home (???) so it didn't matter. I said that we usually spend Christmas Eve with my folks and Christmas Day with his. He told me he would not come to my folks and that he would take the kids Christmas Day. I said no problems. He also said that I would really miss the BMW's when we split. I told him that I would rather live in a caravan and ride a pushbike and have him. When we got to swimming I practically ran down the 4 flights of stairs with DS and straight into the change room so that he wouldn't see my tears.

It's weird to plan A him and I don't know how it will go. He's working tonight, with OW, but maintains he's not. Liar Liar. I won't mention it to him but it drives me crazy. I took the kids to church tonight and he called and said he thought I had called him. I don't get it.

I mentioned the OW's name and said I might have to call her because I was lost and it's the town where she lives. He said that wouldn't be a good idea. I told him I was joking, I was, but it didn't go down well at all.

DJ or just a plain old LB?

He starts his new job tomorrow. Yay! Hopefully that will help to mellow him and make him so tired that he'll have to sleep normal hours instead of the night life which has always been his way.

No surprises from eblaster either. I wonder how late he'll be tonight after a coffee with the OW. Can't wait for his phone bill. He's also signed up for e-banking so I will have those passwords soon too and can track his money. Eblaster is seriously great.

Looks like I was wrong (happily).

He was home by 1am and brought a bag of clothes for the next gig for OW, so maybe she wasn't there afterall!

He gave me the money from the gig, came to bed and we chatted for about an hour before falling asleep about his work and working on New Year's Eve etc. He wants a gig and mentioned that the OW has one as well as a few others.

Other lead female singer is engaged but unhappy and does not feel "in love" although partner is best thing for her and her DD. He said that he is similar to her in some ways because they don't know what's good for them and fight good things/people. I agree.

He also told me that the 2 female dancers from the band are moving in to our house. I asked why and he danced around it before mentioning that they want to sleep either side of us in bed and if we fight they will clobber us. They don't want anything to go wrong with us. Weird, we are still separated I think so I'm guessing that he's told them he is home to work on us???

We got up together and he showered and we got the kids ready for school. He asked me to take him to work today instead of the train and we had a lovely trip in. Polite, light and grabbed a coffee together too. He kissed me on the cheek as he got out of the car and I will collect him with the kids from the train station tonight.

It's been a pretty good weekend, the best in months and months. I actually have good feelings about things and I think he has seen the possibility of things working again between us. No fanfare yet, but I hope to keep this up and that he'll come around, soon...

My thoughts and prayers are with all that have been affected by the fires in the States. We are seeing the pictures and it's awful! Take care.

We were due to pick WH up from the train station at 7pm, but he finished work at 6pm and called and said it was an awesome job and they had a speaker at the casino last night from 7-9.30pm for one of the brands they represent. He also said he'd bring me the paperwork and would get a ride home.

I called him at 10:30, no answer. Sent a text, no reply.

Called at 10.50pm and he answered in short one word responses and said Tim was driving him home. I asked where Tim lived, apparently in the city 30 minutes away. I said it was really nice of his new boss to go so far out of his way.

At 11.15pm, he was at the door, not a car in sight. I said where's Tim. He said he was dropped off at the top of the hill. I said interesting. He was pissed off, said I didn't trust him etc etc etc.

I don't. I think he met up with OW after the event and she brought him home, hence being dropped off out of sight.

Anyway, he jumps in the shower and carries on. I told him I didn't suspect that he was telling me anything but the truth and he is blowing this out of proportion. He told me he told his work colleagues about me and the trouble I could cause and they're all ready for it. He said he has no wife, just 2 kids. I don't exist to him. He has known me for 8 years and he knows how I think about everything. I said that he is putting words in my mouth. I said "interesting", that's it! He told me that he knows how it ends, that I will send him an apology today and tell him I'm sorry and that I'm really trying. I told him I have nothing to apologise for - it's in his head.

He said that I will have nothing to do with his jobs or his life.

I said what was so different from this morning that he had to turn into a jerk and he said I'm doing that thing again. Nothings changed between us.

I checked his mobile when he was asleep and he's wiped all call lists and text messages.

Not suspicious at all!

I was so close last night to thinking that I was ready for plan B. It's not fair to love and be hated and it hurts me so much.

So, I was peaches and cream this morning, didn't bring it up and wont. He's a jerk but I want him to cool down and come home tonight for more plan A so I need to play it cool.

We have counselling tomorrow. Sigh.

What do I do?

Are the changes like I saw on the weekend false, or it his anger last night purely due to mixing with the OW again and him feeling mad that I am keeping them apart and their friendship undercover again?

I wish I knew the right thing to do/say. How do I get through MC tomorrow and possible a dialogue tonight (our homework) and not LB and pass any DJs etc?

Please help

Why?
Why do you need him to come home for more Plan A? How much Plan A do you think you need to lavish on him?


He was absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, with the OW. No question about it. You did not say anything wrong, or do anything wrong. all you said was "interesting". Most people would have said BULL [censored]. when your WH is alone at night, thinking about this mess he is in, he KNOWS that you did nothing wrong. But he keeps up this act.

this sort of behavior is very similar to a child who is caught sneeking cookies out of the cookie jar. You can see that the cookies are missing. There are crumbs on the childs shirt. There is chocolate on the childs mouth. You know that you have caught the child sneeking cookies. But when you say "did you sneek cookies?" the child says no, and gets angry with you "for not trusting".

Remember when you were a teenager - you did this sort of thing with your parents too. They would catch you doing something wrong - but you would lie, and if they questioned you further, you became angry.(my own teenager pulled this on me just yesterday!)

so think back to how you felt when you were doing this to your parents. You knew they were right, and you were wrong. But you did not want to admit it. So you became angry.

He knows that he is wrong - so do not let his bad behavior make you sad. He was with her - if he was with Tim, he would have been dropped of in front of the house, on time.

I think you know that I would like for you to tell him to find some place else to live. I would like you to tell him in your nicest voice that you will no longer listen to him put you down any longer. You do not want to hear things like:

That you are a living, breathing woman who has value. If you do not exist to him, he needs to find somewhere else to live. If he needs a couple of days to look for a new place to live, that is fine, but he needs to sleep on the couch. Your bedroom is your sanctuary - the place you go to think, to pray, to cry. You can not share your bed with someone who tells you that you do not exist.

That is what I would like you to do. But I know you are not ready.

so, at the very least, please remeber:
Do not beg him.
Do not write him a letter telling him that you promise to do better - YOU DID NOTHING WRONG!


Do you think you may be ready to ask him what his intentions are? could you ask him something like:
"WH, I would like to know what your intentions are for me, and your children. I understand that you do not want to discuss your work, or personal life with me. But do you plan to live with me for a week? A month? A year? Because, I feel that families should talk, and share together. I long to tell someone about my day. And I want to hear about my husbands day. I long for a friend, to talk to at night. Are you going to be that friend for me?

I know you are scared. I understand that.

But the truth is that he is a very sick man right now. I suspect that he moved back in with you because he was broke, and he had no where else to go. He has been friendly towards you out of fear that he may need to stay there for a long time.

Now, he has one good day at a new job, and he suddenly gains his arrogance back. I am very sad for him, because his "high" will not last for long. the first day of a new job is always good. Lets see how he feels in a week, a mnoth, or 6 months (if he lasts that long. Lets remember that he has a bad track record with jobs)

But I feel even more sad for you! Because I know that you are hurting.


This comment is so stupid, it is almost funny. First day on the job, he is telling his colleagues about his marital trouble??? I don' think so. Next time he says something like that, try looking at him as if his hair was on fire.

Hang in there my friend. Try to do something nice for yourself today.

Last things first...

We had a work lunch with our clients on a ship today and had a tour and 3 wonderful hours on the cruise ship. It was docked but it didn't matter and definately qualifies for something nice for myself!!!

I sent WH a picture of the ship (he loves ships) and asked him if the winner had made his first sale yet. He sent me a message saying that he would rather be free for the day from jealous innuendo and smart [censored] remarks and phone calls when he's out. He said he's no winner because he's carrying my $hit.

I didn't reply.

It took the shine off my special day out but I was so touched by your message that I'm ok again.

Somehow hearing you agree with me makes me feel better about it and not wrong for being jealous. I am not jealous, I just prefer my husband to be honest, especially if it is the friendship he insists it is. Thank you.


Yes. I thought of you when he told me he'd moved back.


I love, and hate, that you know me so well


This I can and WILL do!


Yes, very scared. I will try and talk to him tonight before MC tomorrow. I will re-read your words until I know I can't mess it up. I don't want to waiver from the point and let him see me as weak and vulnerable. I think these questions are ok to ask although I am petrified of the response.

I was much stronger before he came home. My pacing last night whilst I waited for him showed me that. I cleaned the house and waited for him byt the front door in between washing cycles! I am dependent on his companionship and I don't even have it.


You're right, it is just another high and when he doesn't meet his sales targets, he'll find the lows.



LOL! Your response had me in stiches and I will put it into practice. you're great at this WOF.

It will be another 3 hours before he gets home, if he comes home on time and by plan A I hope to meet his ENs and restore the love he had for me. I looked at my phone messages from him today from 5 months ago and he really loved me. What happened?

I'm going to keep positive. Thank you for lifting me up today.

this is tugging at my heart, and I am not sure how to respond.
the truth is, he has loved you, and still does. But he just does not understand the richness of mature love. He is looking for the "high" of a new relationship. The bubbly feeling that comes from a new relationship, where you have not had a chance to see that the other person is human. He wants each day to be easy, happy, over the top dramatic. He had that with you , in the beginning. All new relationships have that. And that bubbly feeling makes you feel like you are on top of the world, capable of anything!

I remember when I started dating my current H. We were both over 40, and had children at home. But we were so giddy in love that we could talk on the phone for hours. We would be up past midnight every night talking on the phone. I would wake up in the morning at 6am, not even tired. I was on that bubbly high. It was a great thing, but I am mature enough to understand that it wouldn’t last that way. It couldn’t. The human body needs more than 6 hours of sleep every night!

Now that we have been married almost 4 years, we don’t have that bubbly high. We have something better. A rich, mature love. I have seen his bad habits – and he has seen mine! I support him – and he supports me. I know, without a doubt, that if I became ill tomorrow and could not get out of bed for 6 months, that he would still be there for me. If he lost his job tomorrow and we had to sell everything we own and move into a tiny apartment, I would still be there for him. That is what a mature love understands.Love is not defined by the dramatic, giddy feeling. Love is defined by the day to day actions of building a family, a home, a life together.

But if I had become ill when I was married to my ex, he would not have stayed. He would have made up some excuse like “our M has been over for years. I was going to leave you anyway. It is not because you’re bed ridden – I will still support you, but I need to leave”. I know this for a fact – because he left to chase that bubbly feeling with OW#1, and when that did not last, he then chased OW#2. And I call tell you without a doubt that he no longer has that feeling w/ OW#2. He has settled into regular married life, but neither of them is interested in trying to build a mature R. They want to find the bubbly feeling again, and will likely move onto other relationships soon. Just as your WH will.

I am curious about your WH’s past relationships. Wasn’t he married before?
How did you 2 meet, and what was the beginning of your relationship like???

WH has actually acknowledged a number of times that he realises that the high of a new R does not last and he will repeat the same mistakes in every R he is in and all R's go down the same path when mystery is taken over by reality of day to day living.

I guess that's a point in his corner for MAYBE being ready to discover the mature love.

He was married for 2 years at age 25 to his next door neighbour. They were both musicians and from what he and his family describe, she was very unstable and dramatic. She died about 3 years ago from cancer so we don't speak ill of her, but up to that point, it was weird. I am not sure how much was fabricated and how much was true, but take about 50% of it literally.

He doesn't have friends from that time period in his life now as they lived in another state when married.

I think he was involved in a couple of serious R's after divorce and when we met in 2000, he was in a 2 year R. We didn't get together. He told me he loved me and wanted me etc. I was newly out of a long term R and moving to Singapore on my own. He broke up with his girlfriend and flew to see me and our R began in a whirlwind of extensive phone conversations and emails, romantic catch ups across Asia etc. We were married within 18 months.

On reflection, I don't think he was single when we met. If I've learnt anything, it is that he has always been this way and quick to jump on something new and exciting. He is very insecure and really needs other people to tell him how great he is and it's an addiction. I think he broke up with his gf about 1 month after we started "long distance dating". I met his family and the gf had moved out and on at that stage. They both lived with his dad so that was verified.

He was mad when he got home last night, although he did come straight home. He thought I had called his work to verify who dropped him home but it was a conversation that his boss had with person x and WH was not mentioned. I think he has a guilty conscience and I told him that. He does not believe my non-invovement, but suggested that one other person knew where he was and that it may benefit them to create problems with me at home.

He wanted to go out but I asked him for our dialogue first. I probably got into too much detail about boundaries and breaking them and that I wasn't sure if I wanted to be in a M with him because I cannot trust that he wont have another A because of his behaviour not changing. I spoke of my concerns about his intentions of being home and said that I no longer want him sharing my bed if he is not interested in R. I said that I have been deeply hurt by his A and his repeat patterns and inability to see how it hurts me.

I said I have no doubt out marriage can be amazing, but I don't know if I want that anymore with someone who doesn't care for me or my day. I loved him once, but it's getting harder.

He did the dialogue with me and said he doesn't trust me at all, thinks I continue to snoop and are planning for a future where I can cut him out financially etc.

He told me that he didn't think I knew that he had been offered a R, but not with OW and that he has morals and values and would not do that to me or the kids.

He doesn't know if he can get over the exposure period and said I damaged so many relationships with his friends and family by trying to make him look bad. I said I would be thrilled if someone loved me that much that they'd tell everyone that they were trying to save their M.

He hates me, which he changed to dislikes me and hates what I did at my insistence of it being hurtful to me.

Told me that through my exposure actions I have caused him to be completely unattracted to me and turned his love for me into hate.

He doesn't know how long he'll stay, doesn't think this is working at all and insists that it was me begging him to come home. Cannot move out yet because he has no money yet and it will mean I get less money too.

Wants to stay committed to his new job and catches the train to be responsible. I thought he was indicating that he was doing that for bigger reasons such as going for custody.

Loves his kids more than anything and wants the world for them. I said that would be loving their mother, he said he does.

Told me he shares my bed because he still loves me.

He said there is maybe a small glimmer of hope that we can make the marriage work but really thinks it can only happen with distance from me. Misses me and loves me when we're apart, especially when he's hanging with his female friends, but hates being around me.

So, he went out. He called me 30 minutes later. He had a bag of clothes for the OW for a weekend gig and had left the bag in the bedroom so I put a family key chain photo in it with a message to DH saying how much I loved him and the beautiful family we had made together and looked forward to being a family forever.

Anyway, I noticed that he had taken the bag. He had called me to ask if I knew anything about the photo being in the bag. I said no, mumbled something about what blue bag etc and ignored it all.

I asked him where he was, he said in a house. I said are you at OW's house and he said yes. Honesty!!! I said thanks for telling me, say hi to her parents for me.

When he got home 1 hour later, came into our bedroom. We had a daybed in the room and that's where I was sleeping. I didn't want to be in the shared bed last night. He asked me if I had placed it in the bottom of the bag so that she would pull it out and see that he had a family. :MrEEk: I maintained that I knew nothing and kept it at that. I don't care. It worked by the sounds of it.

He wanted me to get into the our bed and give him the pillow and doona to take to the lounge where he would sleep. I said no.

He went to the lounge, turned up the heater and slept out there with just a sheet.

This morning I got the kids dressed, he dressed DD, but it's his day off from regular job so he slept in. All amicable today so far. MC at 1pm.

I am glad that he has at least aknowledged this. The problem is that even an alchoholic knows that drinking is bad for them, they know that it is ruining their life, but they continue to drink for the "feeling" it gives them. The high that he searches for with his inapproriate relationships is similar to a drunk.

Is he threatening you here? that someone else may create problems with you at home? How childish.
Next time he says something like this, I wonder if you could look at him and say "Do you think I am in danger??? Seriously!! How my gosh!!! Do I need to be concerned about myself, and the kids??? Seriously, should I take the kids and go to my parents house??? What sort of person is this????. and then, later in the evening, you could say "Did you just hear something???? It sounds like someone is outside! Do you think I should call the police??!!


AWESOME!
Well done!
I know this was hard for you - but you did great!


Again, very well done!


this makes me laugh. I would not encourage you to do anything like this, that you would have to lie about later.
But you have been through so much crap with this man - It was good to have a bit of a laugh about this.


Well done
I really dont understand how he says he hates you one minute - then he dislikes you - then when you tell him he should love his kids mom, he says he does. All within just a few minutes.

You should not share a bed with him at this point. You have stated that you do not wnat to share a bed with him as long as he is not interested in a R with you. You need to stand by this. Show him that you are serious. He does not stand by any of the comments that he has made - but you should show him how to be a grown up, and stand by what you say. Until he is ready to commit to you, his W, you do not need to share a bed with him.

Thank you for your encouragement!

Had the MC. Not good. He is h&ll bent on punishing me and making me wrong and I'm no angel either, yet, he insists on coming back each week???

He said that he is sad that this is making me unhappy and he really does love me and doesn't want this. He doesn't want me to be unhappy. We've been together for 9 years and he really does love me and doesn't want anyone to ever hurt me.

He is not happy at home and hates being around me etc.

He wants to stick at this new job and be responsible and stay with something he has committed to, for once in his life.

After the session we talked and he said that he feels trapped and that he's unhappy and angry with me all the time. He has a new job but I am complaining that we wont be able to afford 2 households and him moving out will be bad financially.

I said that he's not trapped. He can leave at anytime. I would ask him to consider that he doesn't leave tonight and that we can prepare the kids properly and not hurt them. He told me one second I beg him to stay and now I'm kicking him out. :RollieEyes:

I said my wish is to work on the marriage. If he wants to go, he should go, I am not begging him to stay. I said that we should get a realtor and have them arrange for it to be rented out before we both commit to other leases, but I would probably take the kids to mum and dad's in the short term. I don't want to rush into him leaving and then loose the house.

He said he didn't want to rush anything and that we should talk about it first!!!!!!!!!!!!

He said he told me about his relationship offer because that's not why he's unhappy, not for another woman, just because he's unhappy with me. He almost questionned if I had someone else and told me he knows how much of a catch I am and thinks it would be really easy for me, if I'm not already. I didn't even grace it with a response.

He is angry that everyone will think he's doing the wrong thing by me and the kids if he leaves and give me bad advice. I walked away when he told me my family were sh1t and got in the car and just cried.

He rang me 3 minutes later and told me about a mutual friend who was cheating on his gf. He got home last week and she had his things on the lawn. He is with the OW apparently, but is considering going back to his daughter's mum. She is 3 years old. He doesn't know if it will work but its a consideration that he thinks would be the best option.

Why is he telling me these stories?

He doesn't want me to go to a realtor, yet.

Asked me if I was going to the wedding on Sat. I said yes. We will only have one car and he is worried I think because I will need to drop him off at the gig and OW will be there working with him. I said that she can drop him home and he said he would find someone else. Why? She's just a friend?

WOF, you'll be pleased to know that we sell the car tomorrow for a profit and HE says we should wait for a little while if I am worried and not buy another expensive car. Good, finally some common sense, but we'll see how long it lasts.

He's home late tonight after rehearsal.

I am going to go home, play with the kids, dye my hair, paint my toe nails and watch some tv and relax and not worry about all of this stuff. Tonight's about me.

I know, the MC said the same thing to him today. We are all confused.


Absolutely. I plan on keeping this up. I will give him the doona and pillow tonight however so that he can be more comfortable in the lounge room.

Hello Rocky

I have just looked back through your thread and the impression I get is that nothing follows through .You are trying to formulate plans but he is so unpredictable that you are thrown off course every time. It is a crazy making roller coaster. He alternates from Mr Nasty Guy when things are not going his way to Mr Nice Guy when he wants you to co-operate.

This is a characteristic of BPD and is so prevalent it even has a name. The nice guy mode is called hoovering or to be more explicit -----sucking you back into the vortex of his life as it becomes more and more unmanageable for him. As he sees you showing signs of abandoning him he turns on nice guy to pull you back in and keep you under control.

He really needs you to support him by having firm boundaries, by you being the one who follows through on what you say you are going to do. For instance when you say that you are not going to sleep in the same bed what does that mean
a] for one night?
b} for one week ?
c} until he decides to sweet talk you back
d]until you are satisfied that he is telling the truth about OW and stops treating you disrespectfully?

You are really back to the rock and the marshmallow

All the best
I know you are a truly dependable,intelligent and worth while person. He is so lucky to have you as the mother of his children and deep down he knows it too

Has the MC (or anyone else for that matter) ever suggested anti depressents for him? He needs to get his mood swings better under control, and this would seem like an obvious way to do it. He is all over the chart with his moods, and I fear that he is going to crash and burn at his new job because of it. He wants to blame his foul mood on you, but we both know that it really has nothing to do with you. Consequently, his moodiness is destined to flow into other areas of his life.

Hi Myopia, I've missed you!

This is exactly right for my WH. In fact, he said yesterday that he needs to be on his own to really miss me so that he has to beg me to take him back when he's ready. He wants the drama.


Last night I left the doona and pillow in the lounge room. He called me twice after tea on his way to rehearsal with OW to tell me about his job applications and car sale. All conversation was initiated by him. I was interested and engaged and was the one to end the conversation each time.

He got home at 1:30am. A fuel receipt in his car was for 11:07pm so he finished rehearsal at 11pm. I'm guessing he went for coffee with OW for some icing. He came into the bedroom and chatted to me about the car pick up today and I responded as much as required and he said goodnight and left the bedroom. I had removed the pillow from his side of the bed just in case he had any ideas to "sweet talk" me back. I can be soft so it should have answered his question just in case.

He will be in the lounge room until I am satisfied that he is telling the truth about OW and stops treating me disrespectfully as you suggested. I would hasten to add that I really don't want to take him back unless he wants to reconcile. It's too hard on me.


Please give me some tips on staying the rock. I am really trying but my little voice always wants me to fight and cause issues and crumble and cry.

I didn't melt last night, but this morning DD woke him up at 6am. He said she was in early and was whinging that he had to get up for work. I stupidly said that I didn't keep him up late and he told me to shut up. I said that wasn't appropriate language in front of DD. That was it, I took the kids to school.

I didn't mention the fuel receipt or the time home or the bank account balance of $1587 that was in his wallet. I knew he was stashing money. He always says that he gives me all his money.

ARRRGH

What other boundaries should I enforce?

I still want to save my marriage more than anything.

Hi WOF

He won't do meds. He was on Effexor about 7 years ago and hated it. Said he felt numb and out of control and the withdrawal when he went off them was horrible.

I hope he finds a balance. He still complains that he is constantly unhappy but does nothing to fix it from within, except for hanging out with OW. Her new job will take up a lot of her time and I think he is afraid to lose her and is really forcing himself on her again. I hope this works in my favour.

How did we get back here again? I don't want her back in his life like this again. Must have been a false recovery or she has dumped her boyfriend and is all over him for support again.

If he blames his unhappiness etc on me then it makes sense that being without me should make him really happy.

I should also mention that I am fighting a massive desire to put the house on the market or at least up for rent and pack his bags and ask him to leave.

I think this would be a bad thing to do.

Should I let the current sleeping boundary sink in and see if results come of it before I rock the boat again?

I know he wants to be home with the kids and it helps me so much too and is a great time for plan A.

I am going out after work tomorrow night with friends and again on Sunday afternoon and WH is looking after the kids. I thought it might do him some good to support my new lifestyle and wonder where I am and what I'm doing.

Is this ok?

I guess I should have no expectations, but it sounds right...

2M2L:


Because it never ended.

Shes in the band.

Good job with the Picture in OW's clothes. I would have smiled sweetly and said: "Yes, I put that there?" "Why did you come back?"

This guy is a schmuck.

Really, him sleeping in the lounge is WAY TO GOOD For him.

WOF5 has been giving you good advice to straighten your backbone.

Please get yourself stronger. This guy has been beating on you for 9 years. Get YOUR strengh together and you can pass thru this.

Time for Plan B. Time to get the attorney involed to protect yourself. Time to put this guy out in the street where he can't hurt you anymore.

LG

Thanks LG. I want to be stronger. I do.

I am weak because I still love him and want to get us back on track and believe we can, but it hurts.

I don't want to put too much pressure on him because he has $75,000 in his bank account from the car sale. It will take a while to get the cash, but if I can get him to trust me he will put it in the home loan where I control it.

He mentioned it to me yesterday so I am hoping he comes through with it.

I'm nervous and scared.

2M2L:

About this:


He won't.

It's going to drink, or to fund party time with OW.

If you know where it is, MOVE IT.

Put it someplace he can't get to it.

Let him know it the first three years of child support.

He will freak out.

So what. He's about to anyway.

But you have the cash, and he doesn't.

Does this sound harsh? Yes.
Will he possibly stike you or harm you in some way? Get a recorder from an electronic store so that you have proof of what happened. Then have him arrested.

Sorry. He's a smuck. ANd he will continue to manipulate you to get what ever he wants.

Someplace to sleep
The Appearance of a "happy" Family.
Possible SF as needed.
MC so that it looks like he "tried"

He's gone with this much cash.

Call the realtor yourself.
Start looking for apartments.
Hire a good attorney.

LG

Your idea is about 50% good. At some point, you may need to put the house on the market. But I would not suggest you do it right now. if you deicde to sell the house and move, you need to discuss it with him first. If he were stil living at the backpackers, and not helping w/ the kids, then packing his bags, moving him out,a nd selling the house would be fine. But right now he is making a very feeble effort to contribute to the family, so if you decide to sell, let him know first. Give him 30 days to pack and move on his own. Try not to make any big decisions right now. If you are in danger of losing the house, by all means sell. If not, don't uproot the kids any more than you have to.

You need to put a deadline on your Plan A. You have all ready done it for longer than the Harleys would suggest. the purpose of Plan A is to say "look at how well I can meet your needs". You have shown him that all ready. You have met his needs, even when he did not wnat you to, and he has seen that you can be a great W. He fights that - becuase he KNOWS you are a great W, but he wants to leave anyway. There is nothing wrong w/ you, he is just looking for something new. To continue to Plan A for much longer, would just bring you more of the same results.

and I can see that you are losing patience with him. You are talking about putting the house up for sale, and packing his bags. A step like that would surely lead to D, yet you are ready to do that anyway. You are losing your love for the WH. And that is understandble! That is why Plan B exists. You need to distance yourself from his crap. If he tells you one more time that he hates you, and this is all your fault, you may explode. In order to save yourself from certain destruction, you need to close your ears to his harsh words, move him out of the house so you no longer see how late he comes home, and give yourself some rest. That is what plan B is all about.

Unfortunately, I fear that he may become violent with a plan B. This is not a "normal" situation.

What do you think would happen if you sat him down and said:
I really dont want to do this, but I must ask you to please move. Having you here is causing me too much pain.You say mean things to me, you openly consort w/ OW when you know how hurtful that is to me, and you come home at all hours of the night and tell me it is none of my business because we are not in a R. I would never choose to be room mates with someone who hates me, and treats me this way. So I need you to find someplace esle to live.
What would happen if you said something like that to him?

You know he can afford to move out now - he is not going to be on the street.

I tell you what I think is going to happen. When you finally stand up to him, he is going to fold. When you tell him that you have had enough, and he needs to move, he will start by trying to bully you into submission. He will say "go ahead, kick me out, I knew you were a b!tch! Tell the kids that you kicked me out. this is all your falut. I knew you were mean"
and when you respond with "ok, bye" he is going to panic. When you no longer cry, or beg, or enter into a dialogue w/ him, he is going to panic. and then he is going to to make his offers to change, blah blah blah. I am not suggesting this as a technique to win him back. I can just see that he is exhuasting your love for him, and it is going to freak him out when he realizes it.

Please, do not get involved w/ any other men, and do not pretend like you are. Do not play that game. We have allr eady seen taht he freaks out when he thinks you are on the phone with a nother guy - but be a bigger adult then he is, and do not play that game.
It is good to go out w/ freinds, and it is good that he is going to watch the children. he needs to realize that if he gets a D, he will need to take care of the kids on his "days". that part is good.
But please be the bigger adult here, and do not pretend to be dating. Show him that married people do not date. Married people do not stay out all night. If you say you will be home at 1am, make sure you are home by then. That way, if he ever tries to get into a fight with you, you will not have to defend your actions about this weekend. dont do anything you will have to lie about later, or make excuses for later.

Ok, here is a tough question for you.
You say that you will do anything to save your M.
Let me ask you - Why?

Is it because he is such a great partner? Before this OW came along, did he protect you physically, mentally and financially? Did you ahve a solid M before, where you mutally supported each other?

or

Do you want to save your M so you do not have to say that you "failed" at it? Because you do not want to admit people to people that your M "failed" and you are a divorced woman?

I will respond - you're amazing and spot on!

He just called my work and asked me for a radio campaign for his new job. Gave me all the details, very official, tyring to help me out and give me a new client.

I got the info and professionally handled it.

Then, he asked me why I was mean to him this morning. I said that I shouldn't have commented but DD wakes me up every day and it is up to me how much sleep I get and I wouldn't feel sorry for him. He told me he was home at 12:30am and rehearsal finished at 11:30pm. He might have been home earlier, it is possible, but unlikely.

Anyway, then he asked me if I was still happy with him sleeping in the lounge room. I said yes, that sharing a bed with a man who doesn't respect me or want to be with me really hurts and I want to protect myself from that hurt.

He said I will move out then like you want. I said what, like I want? and he said yes, you told me to move out yesterday at MC. I said are you sure you want to talk about this now, maybe tonight is better? He said I had made it clear that I wanted him to leave so he will.

He wanted me to beg him to stay, yes?

So, I said it was up to him if he left although we needed to talk to arrange it properly in relation to kids visitation and finances and he said he doesn't want to talk about it.

He said please send the info through for the advertising when you can and see ya. I said bye.

How did I go?

Wow LG, you don't mince words, but I love your honesty.

I don't think I can do it yet, but I'm building myself up. I want to be happy and strong and amazing!

Thank you, I can wait for the kids till the end of time and I will do all in my power to keep them stable.

Can i be weak and say after Christmas?
I feel scared about this although it feels inevitable.

Yes, the peace is very attractive and I yearn for it. I really do prefer being at home with the kids on my own and knowing nothing about his seedy little adventures and not expecting him to come home.

Me too. Can i do a modified Plan B?

Maybe I'll let you know as I think this chat is coming tonight or very soon. My modified plan B would be that we both agree to the conditions as an open book plan B. That way I would have his buy in to hopefully end things on his end to rebuild our marriage if he chooses without getting him offside. He punishes me through not seeing the kids and being emotionally and sometimes physically violent towards me and that's not acceptable.

Well, you sound 100% correct to me. Could this be the modified plan B???

Your timing is impeccable. I was thinking of sending myself some flowers to home with a note saying "I'll wait". It was absolutely intended to make him think there is someone else and I am completely stupid for playing games. Boy am I glad you posted. It was only a thought but it was there right along with wanting to ring the OW again to get her onside with me and perhaps her parents again too. Eeeek! It's been a tough day, but I haven't done those things.

I love your advice about keeping my word and he knows it's just a group of friends from work and not a man for tomorrow night. I think he will draw his own conclusions anyway if it suits him, but it is important for me to stay 100% honest & committed to my M.


Sigh. I was brought up to get married once till death to us part. It's a huge part of me and one that is especially dear to me when children are involved.

I married a man who loved me in an amazing way who really did protect me and love me and support me. BUT, after reading only a small amount of Women Who Love Too Much, there are so many wholes in the picture of my marriage that now I seem to be re-writing it from the start.

I don't believe we had a healthy marriage. I don't believe I had healthy boundaries and my H was very needy and our "fit" was less than healthy a lot of the time.

I will do anything to save our marriage and make it rewarding for both of us with healthy boundaries and genuine love and support - if he jumps on board and committs to the same. I really do thnik we can do it, but I can't do it alone and I will not accept the marriage that we had from him or anyone else ever again. I deserve so much more.

The victims are the kids because they are so young. I would love nothing more than for them to have both parents in a happy marriage together so we can be one family and not need to share time and live in different houses etc. I choose our family.

first of all, somehow I missed LG's post. These words are golden for you:

That, is what I am trying to help you with. Getting YOUR strength together.

What is the deal with the car money sitting in his bank account? You have GOT to start making better financial choices.
suggestions:
1. If you can get half of the money out of the account, do it now.
2. if you let him put it in his own account without your name on it, tell him to write you a check for half.
3. Tell him to buy you a new car with your half of the money, and he can have the other half to do whatever.

I think that if you insist on doing this "plan A" through Christmas, you will drag your children through another month of misery with this man. He will be bouncing back and forth with OW, you will find evidence of him buying some expensive gift for her, you will not know whan he will be home, and when he will be out partying. You do not have a peaceful life now. How would you have peace during Christmas, if he is home?

You are doing an amazing job of taking back control of your life. Bit by bit, each day you are gaining your strength. Good for you! Continue to stretch yourself out, and work towards the peace filled life you desire.

Have you given thought to what it will take for him to become an honest, stable, loving H? I know that step one is to stop all contact with OW, but then what? What would he need to do to insure that there will not be an OW#3? Keeping in mind that this OW#2 is not a Greek Goddess sent from heaven just for him - she is his second fling. So how will he protect his M, and his W from fling #3.

Because the thing is - you will not be able to do this for him. you will not be able to lock him up tight and keep him faithful. You are an amazing W, who does an awesome job of caring for her family. Yet he still strays. He would need to come up with a major life style change to protect you in the future.

He uses his relationships with other women as a way to self medicate. If he is feeling bored, or depressed, he looks for a new R to perk him up.When he finds that new R he decides that this is the answer to all his woes. All he needs to do is move on to this new R and life will be glorious, all day, every day.

Just like a drug addict. My brother has spent years in and out of jail becuase of his addiction to meth. when he feels bored, or disgusted with his life he turns to the meth to make him "feel better". After a couple hits of meth, end of problem. If he were ever going to become a solid, stable, H and father, he would have to quit the meth, change all of his friends who were part of the meth lifestyle, make his life a completely open book, not have any hidden money or secrets, and comitt to staying away from meth every single day of his life. This is possilbe - but highly unlikely. Because my brother does not see anything wrong with his life, or the meth. If we would all just quit "judging" him, and accept him for who he is, then everything would be fine.

Your WH has just substitued meth for innapporopraite relations with women. What would it take for him to quit medicating himself this way? How would he take extraoridanry care for the future of this M, and his W's emotional well being?

Give it some thought

I am empowered today.

I woke up feeling regret for setting some boundaries with WH last night and fought the urge to apologise to make it all go away again, for a while.

But I didn’t. I just lay awake and realized that I had set some boundaries and if he was upset that was ok. They are my boundaries and I need to set them to protect me.

We spent about 15 minutes chatting about things he imitated about his job etc when I got home from my meeting. All light and happy. Asked my opinion on buying a BMW next year and we talked about the economy etc. I asked him if he wanted to finish the conversation that he started in the afternoon about moving out.

He said he used to think I was amazing for applying for jobs and being successful and I helped him with his cv and now he is doing all those things he’s never done before and actually taking responsibility for himself.

He said he wants to be honest with me. Told me that he had been offered to go interstate to QLD with OW’s band next week for 2 days & 1 night. They would not pay him for the gig, but would pay for his flight and accommodation. He could help out, hang out and sing. He is just friends with her and it would be really fun etc.

Gulp.

I said that he could choose to go on the trip, but I would take that as him not wanting to work on our relationship because we don’t have any trust between us and he would have to know that it would hurt me deeply. If relationship with OW is platonic only, then why I am still on the outside? Why does he choose to cover up and lie about seeing her? He is not making a stand to make me think anything different.

I told him that he gets to choose his actions but not the consequences of his actions. I could not guarantee that this would be ok with me. I don’t know what I will think if he goes, but he can’t control that. He can only control his actions.

It's not ok to hate me and treat me this way in the house, I would expect a lot more from a house mate and I expect more from you.

Among other things we talked about staying in house vs going etc. He wants to hang on to all of the money in his account because he thinks that will make me nicer to him and therefore unable to be nasty and vindictive. He believes I will be a real b1tch if things don’t go my way. (to reconcile).

He said thank you for your thoughts. I chuckled and he was offended. Maybe he was being genuine.

Then, off to separate beds. I was really struggling with my boundaries.

I drove him into work this morning as he is actually very sick with the flu and it was very cold here today. He works tomorrow night and needs his voice to be ok. Oh, and I love him and really wanted to look after him 

We chatted about stuff until we were 5 minutes out and he brought up the trip and my comment about it meaning he was not working on the marriage. He was fixated on that and looked at me like a had a huge green slug on my head. How dare I be upset that he wants to go away with the OW to a beach location!

I stood my ground and repeated that I had been deeply hurt by his relationship with the OW and even if it was just friendship, I had put been on the outside intentionally. If he goes away with her it will hurt me immensely. I want to work on our marriage, not be in the stands watching him go to QLD with the OW knowing how much it hurts me.

I said that if he chose to do that, the consequence is that I would ask him to leave. So I did. I said I think you should leave. I am hurt that you continue to hate me and continue to blame me for everything that is going wrong and my punishment for loving you should not be to wait at home while you are out with her or in QLD with her and lying about where you have been. I think you should leave and you need to go before I lose all love for you. I cannot keep on protecting my love whilst you are around and hurting me. I need you to go so that if there is ever a chance to reconcile, I will still have some love left for you.

He said that he had no intention of going to QLD because he doesn’t want to jeopardize his new job which is about being responsible for his children. He just wanted to be honest with me. I said, so you had no intention of going and were just toying with me to see what I would say? He said no, he just wanted to be honest.

So, he told me that I was nasty and a complete b1tch when I wanted to be and I would become a mega b1tch very soon. He said that I would possibly regret my decision and that I could not choose the consequences of my actions. I said I was just trying to protect my feelings and my heart.

THEN, he sent me a text message.

“I need 2 things from you today. Please make some enquiries into just how bad things are in the car trade and please go and pick up that ring and shop a deal. I will pay for it as I said I would from the profit. Thanks and no this doesn’t mean I’m all of a sudden ok. I’m p1ssed at you and your stories”

Confused? Me too.

------edited to add---------

By stories he is referring to DJ's. I said that my story about him going to QLD with OW could be that he is paying for an expensive hotel room for them both so he could fxxk her brains out. Boy, I'm not proud of that one and humiliated to remember it just now and record it.

You are absolutely right, again. I keep hoping that he will get to the stage where he will walk through fire to be with me again and be ready to hear my boundaries in full and act on them. He is still too much in the fog to even consider them at the moment.

Every now and then I have a breakthrough and I think there are cracks forming, but they are only cracks. I need the whole house to fall down around his ankles.

He is actually becoming a more responsible adult and if I can be so blunt, growing up. I know we are only a week into his new job and a lot can still go wrong, but he holds himself differently now, sets his own alarm clock, makes choices about his life. Before he was scared to do any of that and always raced into decisions without considering the consequences.

I hope that he can have a full transformation and that we can transform our marriage. I think he holds back entirely because he doesn't want to get my hopes up and is only a tiny way back.

Excellent job today. You have put on your red cape of courage. And look what happened - he didn't leave, he didn't move in with OW, he stayed w/ you. He was still being a big baby - and calling you names. But he didn't leave. this should give you courage to see that you do not need to accept his little crumbs any longer. Require more from him.


This is very encouraging. It would be nice to see him become a responsible adult.


This, is a picture of you making excuses for him. No more.

He holds back because he wants to come and go whenever he wants to still. he wants to leave every option open. But that is not mature love. That is not marriage. You are not doing him any favors when you make excuses for him.

We women are really good at making excuses for our WH's! But when you stop making excuses for him, you hold him up to a higher standard of living, and that is ultimately going to be much better for both of you.

What are you going to do about the ring? I don't have a good feeling about that.
if he wants to get you a gift, he should go to the store and get the gift. Don;t let him off the hook so easily. he hopes that if you go to the store and buy yourself a gift, you will stop enforcing your boundaries. Don't let him off the hook. Don;t cave in now.

Plus, I do not like his insult at the end of the message.
Can;t he send you messages without an insult at the bottom??

you are really doing a good job.
Hang in there

Thank you for your words of encouragement. It felt like I had done the right thing today and I feel so happy that you are behind me and supporting me.

I will not make excuses for him anymore. I only control me, not him or how he is feeling and to guess how he is feeling is a DJ and just makes me sad and angry.


That's what I thought. If he goes in and buys it for me then that's great and will be appreciated. I don't want to buy myself a gift with his money to make him feel good but off the hook. I would rather save for it and buy it when I can, not with a handout. Thank you!

The insults are still there but I think you would agree that it was very mild compared to what I used to receive pre-boundaries. I don't want to make excuses, but I saw the last comment as telling me how it made him feel. He did not impose his views on me or punish me for having opinions or tell me what was going to happen now, so I think it might actually be a step forward. Small step forward?

BS. Listen you guys are married. You have a RIGHT to 1/2 of that money. Do you have access to it? If you do, then take 1/2 of it NOW, before its gone.


He's probably thinking, who is this woman that dares to stand up for herself and our marriage!


Why did you ask him to leave? Did he say he was going at this point?


If he said he was going, this is perfect!


That's a lie. He was testing your boundary.


This is a direct threat. I'm worried that he's planning to do something with the money and leave you high and dry.


He really likes to mess with your head. Tell him if he wants you to have a ring, then he'll get it. And then walk away.


Is this what you said during your discussions earlier? Or recent? Major LB.

Learn to stop LB. He expects it. The next time he's insulting to you, just say hmmmmm, and walk away. When he sends you a nasty text, delete it. Do NOT respond. You teach people how you want to be treated. You do NOT have to listen and you do NOT have to respond. That's why he does it. He can count on a reaction from you. Stop reacting.

Nope - his own account with his own passwords and cards.


Yes, I asked if he was and he said he was considering it and had checked with his work and could move his days to Wednesday and Saturday and it was no problem. From what he said I really thought he had told them yes.

In relation to the money, I am not sure he will do anything directly, but his intention is to buy another BMW for resale but is considering paying a $1,000 deposit now and picking up the car in 2009. It's an ok option by me, but he wants a car now beacuse of our current marital situation. We can't be a one car family right now. I told him if that was his motivation then he should buy something cheap and leave the money in the bank.



Yes, last night. And I feel horrible about it. I justified it as explaining how my mind might work without knowing the honest truth. I guess I was trying to manipulate him into telling me the truth. Another major LB.


You're right. I need to stop reacting. I am being the person that he hates and that's all he needs to continue to justify his secrecy and bad behaviour. I have to remember that I do not have to listen and do not have to respond. I actually walked away last night but he mumbled something and I skipped back in to ask him to repeat it and was more than happy to react.

And i really thought I was on the right track. What are LB's? I know I should know this but I only know them after I do them. How do you do it before you say something?

Boundaries are getting better

Now I need to stop LB's.

I'm on shaky ground, not feeling very empowered anymore.

He called about work stuff and then mentioned that he hasn’t had a chance to look for places to move to yet. I said ok. He said I want him out but I’ll just have to wait. He said I begged him to come back for the kids and we agreed to coexist. Now I am messing him about by kicking him out. I said I was setting my boundaries to protect my heart and he was taking things out of proportion. He said he’s in and out of the house and it’s messing him and the kids about and that I'm nasty and mean and then he hung up.

I think he is hoping I will beg him to stay? It took everything I had not to. I want him to stay but not like this.

Should I write him a text/email/letter to state my boundaries so that he gets it?

If you say mean things to me, openly continue your secret relationship with OW when you know how hurtful it is to me, come home when it suits you because it is none of my business and keep me at arms length...

I will ask you to find somewhere else to live. I need to protect my heart and my feelings to save my love for you and have any real chance of reconcilation if that is what we both want. Some time apart may offer us both a really good opportunity to focus on ourselves and repair the hurt and look for a positive way forward out of this mess as you have suggested.

Any tips? The board goes quiet over the weekend and I don't think I can hold it together without some help.

I guess he is testing my boundaries again. He just sent me an email which was 100% about the car discussion and asking my opinion about the purchase etc.

Not one mention of our discussion or any hurtful words.



-----------edited to add-----------

He called again re the car as I hadn't sent a response. He was polite, thoughtful and fine.

I told him I was still unsure. He said he has not committed to anything and might go to see them tomorrow. I said that we could go on the way to the wedding. He asked me if I was still going. I said of course, unless he'd decided not to take me, he said that's fine.

I am still planning to dress up and look amazing and do an expert plan A tomorrow.

I also said that it might not be a good idea considering our current relationship and he said it doesn't change anything, we're still making money and there's no difference.

No mention of living arrangement!

Weird, can't make head or tail of it.

What do I do?

Do I bring up the living arrangement and him moving out or just continue plan A with no LB's etc until he brings it up

AND what do I do if/when he brings it up again?

It is pointless to try and talk sense to him. He is all over the place which is par for the course with WHs at your stage of the game
They cannot be trusted to tell the truth about ANYTHING They have so many lies, plots and sub plots on the boil. They are stressed to the max trying to keep everything under control.I think you have got very little chance to achieve consensus on any thing and would be well advised to make plans on your own without consultation.

The idea of renting the house is a very good one. You could rent it furnished on a 6 mo lease and then at the end of 6 mo of plan B you can make a decision to take it from there. I would talk to a local agent about the possibilities and make it available at the end of January when everyone comes back from the summer holidays. It is not a good time to do it now .

We have had dealings with agents and they are very variable in quality. The big real estate chains are full of showy, inexperienced, untrustworthy slime-buckets IMO.Go for an older guy who really knows the business. He can be the one to break the news to WH that he no longer has a home to go to REMEMBER AFFAIRS ARE UNFAIR you do not owe it to him to tell him anything until it is fait accomplis You do not have to play fair in any way shape or form.This is a very important boundary

That would give you 2.5 months to prepare alternative accommodation for yourself.I would not have any discussion about it with him at all he will try to take control and torpedo any arrangements you try to discuss with him

He is used to the idea that he has the right to barge in however and whenever he likes. It would be impossible to disabuse him of this sense of entitlement if you tried to plan B from where you are now.BTW what are his entitlements? As I understand it the house is solely in your name and you are the one who says what goes. He relinquished his rights to do the deal on the car.

In the meantime swot up on reverse babble ,agree with whatever he says don't allow him to bait you into an emotional meltdown. It might be good to start a thread just about the effective use of Reverse Babble. You might get more ideas that way.

Finally there are so many missing pieces to this story another thread on surveillance might be helpful the voice recorder and/or global tracking device could fill in some missing parts.

PS Both Tully and mgolfer are a stage ahead of you in the plan B
stakes neither of them are trying to make it easy for the WH or the WW. Apeasement does not work at all well in this game.

whenever you are in doubt, one of the BEST things you can do is:
absolutely nothing

Our human nature says that when you get a nasty text message, full of threats, your first reaction is to defend yourself. He is slandering you and you need to respond as quicly as possilbe!!!

But trust me on this one - your best response is silence. I think you may have all ready seen that. He calls you with his ramblings about how you are kicking him out, messing with his head, etc. You KNOW you did not mess with his head. He messed with yours! He moved in while you were out of town, and then spent the next 2 weeks reminding you that he truly hates you, is not there for you, only the kids, and you are not officially in a R any longer. HE messed with YOU.

when he rambles like that, and you know it is all a bunch of BS, resist the urge to respond. Let him ramble. As you can see, just a short time later he had gotten over it and was talking about the car again. you did nothing - and he just got over it on his own.

I truly think he was trying to get you to beg him to stay. That is what he is looking for. when you beg him to stay, he feels in control again. Dr Phil would call it his pay off. He threatens to leave, even starts to pack his bags, just so you will beg him to stay. And then when you beg him, then he can stay and hold over it your head. "I am only here becuase you begged. I don't really want to be here, I am only doing it for you, so you better do everything I say, or I am leaving. Just remeber, I have one foot out the door at all times, so treat me right, or I am out of here!!"

That is not Marriage- that is black mail. You have called his bluff- and LOOK - he is still there. You called his bluff and it worked.

He may even move out at some point. and that is ok. Because at least now he knows that if he wants to stay there, he has to quit threatening you. there is no longer a pay off for him. He threatens to leave and you say "If you are planning to go, let me know. I would like to know ahead of time"
no more pay off for him. Just like a child - if his pouting doesn;t work, he will eventually stop pouting.

I know that you have no completely gained your strength back - but please try to get some of that money, or a decent car for yourself. Why does he have to buy an expenisve car? Why can't you each have a standard, decent car? he keeps asking for your opinion - quit trying to make him happy, and appease him. Instead, say "perhaps we could purchase 2 simple, basic, family cars".
Or, tell him you want $10,000 to use for future bills, house payments, etc. In an account, in your name.

I agree with every poster here who says you should get half of that money. that is the real truth. But I know that you are not going to ask for half, so please ask for at least part!




EXACTLY right. he did want you to beg him - and you did not fall for it. That is awesome. If you had begged him to stay he would have happily stayed - and treated you like crap. You would have had another month of listening to him tell you that he is only there for the kids, because you begged, blah blah, he hates you, he can do whatever he wants to becuase you are not in a R, you name it. the same tired old rubbish. now he sees that if he wants to stay with you, he ahs to treat you with respect. Great job.

P.S. LB means Love Buster

Phew, made it through the weekend!

Friday night we both stayed home. He was sick and we even snuggled a bit on the couht, well, he put his head in my lap anyway.

Up Saturday, getting ready for wedding, dropped off kids and mum and dad's and home to pick up WH. I looked incredible, mum and dad said so but he didn't say anything.

On the way into the city he said that he didn't even feel like taking me, but I looked stunning and was an evolution because he can hate me one minute and love me the next.

The whole day was like this. Big compliment followed by reality of hate etc.

He missed the vows and verse during the ceremony, too busy snapping photos to notice me crying and hear anything himself. Afterwards we joked around at the wedding and he was snapping photos of me like I was a model. I hammed it up and it was heaps of fun. Some of the guests said I looked like Meghan Gale on the catwalk. (It was a rickity bridge out onto a small dam in the bride's parents property).

We hung out and no one knew that we were separated so it was easy to chill and have fun.

We left, I said thanks for taking me etc and his demons took over. There was a bit of arguing, telling me just because we had a good day doesn't mean everythings ok etc etc.

Told me that he was pissed off that I'd begged him to come home and then asked him to leave. I told him I asked him to come home to work on our marriage and if he was going to be there for the kids, to be civil and polite and not tell me he hates me etc.

So, we got a coffee, everything ok, then more arguing. Drop him off to gig with OW and the tension was thick. Said he didn't want to come home to me. Told me that if it was based on looks he would come back to me because I am gorgeous, but, he hates who I am and who I've become etc.

I thought that OW was giving him a lift home after the gig, actually think I suggested it at some stage. He was in tears when he got out of the car and dropped his microphone down 2 flights of cement stairs and it smashed. I saw it and tried to help but you can imagine how that went.

I left in tears and cried and did laundry, cleaned the house like a mad woman and watched Nights in Roadanthe. Not a good film for someone in plan A or B in my opinion!

I went to bed at 12am. He called me at 1:30am and said he'd had a bad night because of my comments etc. Then, he called me at 1:45am and asked me to pick him up. I had offered, so I said yes.

We drove home in silence. I went straight to bed and he came up to the bedroom to say thanks for the lift and he felt really sick and didn't know if he would make it to church for the kids play. I said sleep well. he said don't tell me to sleep well!

Sunday morning got up, told him when I was leaving and asked if he still wanted to come. He said yes, said he didn't want to speak to my parents or sisters.

Got to church, he sat with the family, was great with the kids and stayed for 30 minutes before going out for coffee. He hasn't been to church regularly in years so this was a big step anyway.

He came to pick us up and took DD home on the train for a ride. DS and I picked them up at the station and we went home. He left at 3:30pm to get out of the house.

I remembered from his emails that he was meeting up with OW to see her new show. Her parents would be there too. I called him at 7:30pm from the bath and asked him if he was with her at the gig and he said yes. Not with her and family but at the back of the room and doesn't want to lie to me anymore.

Called me at 9pm to say he cannot get accommodation yet, not for another week or so. I said ok, I knew it would take him time. He asked if I wanted to leave for a break and I said no. He said maybe we should not talk to each other.

I told him I had received a facebook request from an ex-boyfriend of mine from 15 years ago. I lost my virginity to him, fell pregnant, miscarried twins, he smashed my car and left me in it unconsious while he ran to dodge the cops, he bashed me, stole money, didn't work or contribute and cheated on me at least twice in the two years that I mothered him and tried to fix him.

I sent him a short note to say I was great and happy and pretend that my life had turned out great. I cried for the next 2 hours. I haven't changed. I am the same person who doesn't value myself.

WH said he wants to send him a message to bug off. I know WH relates to some of this and it hurts him too.

He came into the city with me this morning and asked me to take him to the bank where he transferred the car money to my bank account. Yes, I was surprised too. Told me $1,000 is my profit share to do with what I want. he kept $1,000 profit for himself too.

He told me it doesn't mean anything. He loves me but this still isn't working out and he doesn't want to be with me and he sees himself as single etc.

Then, he asked me for coffee and took me into his new work to meet his colleagues and see his shop/desk etc.

Boy am I confused today!

I agree with everything you mentioned. I had mentioned leasing out the house to him on Friday night before I saw your post. He put the breaks on and said not to do anything till Jan. I get the feeling he doesn't want to miss out if he changes his mind.

There are missing parts to this story. It appears she does have a boyfriend from what other band members say but he is living in her pocket and if she went for it, I think he would be there too.

Reverse babble is a gerat suggestion. I do need to learn it.

I am so glad you reminded me of this. I read it Saturday night and it worked so much better for the rest of the weekend.


You are truly great and spot on. I think you will see from my extra long weekend post that he is still blowing hot air and not going anywhere. I'm leaving tonight or tomorrow has now turned into maybe next week, when somethings available.

It drives me bananas, but it sure helps to stand my ground and not waiver. He is almost getting it and realises I'm standing firm on this one. I might not have lots of boundaries in force yet, but this one is firm. When he starts on the "begging me to stay" I just reiterate that I want him to stay to work on the marriage, and if he lives in the house without that common goal I expect honesty and respect.






I am so glad I got ALL of the money. Only missing $1,000. YAY

I will not beg him to stay. you are spot on with what he would say to me and I won't give him that.

What should I do now?

Right now, even though I have $71,000 back in the bank account, I feel really sad, lost, alone and out of control.

By out of control, I mean powerless. WH is going to do what he's going to do. I can't control him. He loves me but I can't make him want to work on our marriage.

In 7 months we can apply for D.

My birthday is in 17 days, Christmas in 5 weeks.

Is it time to let go and give up?

Do I say that I want to give up MC?

Do I say that if he sees any value in continuing he should pay and take ownership?

Do I ask him to leave instead of putting up with his scraps of attention when it suits him?

I still have a foreboding that he would go to a PA if OW was interested.

Help please

Let's see if I can interpret your WH's fogspeak. He's a tough case for sure and trying to figure him out could give you whiplash.




Translation: I had a good day and don't want to admit that I enjoyed myself with you because it goes against all my justifications. It makes me realize that I am wrong so I'll just say something hurtful because then I can believe my justifications again.





Translation: I came home but I didn't want to have to work at anything because that would be admitting that I am doing something wrong which upsets all my justifications.




Translation: I hate who I have become because seeing the changes in 2m2l makes me see that I really hate who I am. So, I'll shift that hate onto her because seeing her this way-beautiful and fun-really is causing me to question what the h@#* I'm doing.



Translation: My justifications aren't holding any water and I really don't want to face what I'm doing-so I will say something really mean to get her upset. Then, I can pretend that it's her problem and not mine.

Please don't consider what he says and does as the truth right now. He's a wayward and as a wayward, he is not the man you married. He's like an alien that has inhabited your H's body and brain.

(((2m2l)))

Thank you for the interpretations and the hug

You have helped restore my sanity before the trip home to be mum and B-wife again.

Maybe the whiplash explains the ache in my neck afterall.

Thank you for reminding me that he is an alien. I keep forgetting and trying to understand him is doing my head in.

Should I hope that I'm maybe getting through, or is that taking things too far?

Thanks again JT
2M2L.

2m2l-

I'd say he's uncomfortable on his fence-for sure. I wouldn't worry about it or try to make any thing happen.

Sometimes you have to let them stew and let God do the basting. Don't try to get in there and do it yourself.

Work on you and meet his EN's. If he becomes crabby-pants, or down right ornery, let him. He's stewing and the Holy Spirit is marinating.

You know what they say about too many chefs...

Hang in there-

Get that money into a seperate account - in your name alone - that you can not easily access. No ATM access, no check writing abilities. You KNOW how soft you are!!! He could come crying to you one night asking you to give him $70,000 cash and you would write a check to him right then and there. You may decide to split the money with him some day, but you should only split it with him after careful thought and planning. I would suggest that the two of you do not touch that money until there has been a HUGE improvement in your M (which would take about a year) or D papers filed. If you deicde to file papers, this could be used to pay for the lawyer, and then later split. I don;t know why he did this - perhpas someones prayers have been answered! But please be smart about it now. This is a huge blessing for your family. Think of your future, and yoru childrens future.

And dont you dare run out and buy him a sports car for Christmas. I know that you were all ready thinking about it - but don't do it. You would only have buyers remorse in January when you are broke, and he is still acting like a jerk.

You handeled this very well. I am so proud of you!

He is still hoping you will beg him to stay. But he continues with this rubbish:
You would not accept this srot of talk from a co-worker, or a friend. You do not need to accept it from your WH who has cheated on you twice, and yet blames you for it.

You are doing a great job, you really are.

I am especially interested in your past R - which clearly is a mirror of your current M. Please stop all contact w/ the old boyfriend. That man was poison to you last time, and will be poison to you again. Plus, you would not want your WH to carry on a R with his ex girlfriends, so show him how an an adult M is supposed to be. Adults, who are M, do not carry on converstaions with old boyfriends/girlfriends. If you continue to have a converstaion with your old BF, you will be showing yor WH that this is perfectly ok. But it is not.

Plus, you and I belong to the club for "Women Who Love Too Much" and you could easily get sucked back into a R with that guy, who left you to die in a wrecked car to save his own a$$. that guy is part of the past - leave him there.

So you have a problem with settling for bad relationships, and trying to fix them. there is clearly a pattern here. You do not have to fix this man - either he will get the desire for a better life, or he won't. Just like I can not fix my brother the Meth addict - you can not fix these men that insist on acting like children. Stop mothering him, and give him the chance to either grow up or go away.

I didn't think it was possible to slip any lower, but here it is...

We called him as I was going to put the kids to bed to see if he needed to be picked up. He said he'd missed his train and was getting a drink in the city.

I wasn't happy, kids and I all feel sick, and want to go to bed.

I said why didn't you call.

He said he doesn't have to.

I said I though you wanted to be a good father, you should have called, DD is in your bed feeling sick and crying for you.

They spoke to each other, she handed phone back and he called me a slu-t and said he hoped I die.

I said I will not be talked to like that and hung up.

He called back 10 minutes later, kids were already in bed. He said I needed to apologise or he would come home and pack his bags. I said what for, I don't deserve to be treated like this. He told me what train he was catching and I said the kids were in bed. He said I guess that means you wont pick me up and I said no.

He said fine, he make his own way home.

I cleaned the kitchen and jumped into bed, feeling very sick.

He got home, had walked 30 minutes from the station and came into the bedroom and started packing.

I let him to it. I said do you want to dialogue about it, he said tomorrow. No problems.

He got really mad, told me how horrible I was to make him walk home in the cold etc, called him a bad father, how dare I etc.

Told me he was taking the car. I called his brother to talk some sense into him but it back fired. I got nothing and WH said I haven't changed.

Said he couldn't leave until Wednesday because he had to get things organised.

He said we both have to admit that we shouldn't be married and this can't work. That I don't really love because of all of the trouble I caused with his work, exposure. At some stage, I took off my rings and agreed with him. Said I love him but I will not keep putting myself this. I will not keep figthing for our M. If he really wanted to be here, he'd make an effort and not continually put me down and make me jump through hoops.

He said he'd tell me a secret and i couldn't use it anywhere else. He could never marry OW or live with her, said she'd do his head in within 3 months.

He jumped on my laptop to check his email and went to bed.

This morning, wants me to go to the bank and transfer the money back to buy the car.

Arguments the whole way in, he told me I need to apologise to OW, she doesn't deserve any of this and I have to get off it to ever make a difference. I got really upset. I cried, hit the door and told him to leave me alone. I just can't handle his berating me. Just because you love someone doesn't mean they can keep telling you it is all your fault that we are here, M was over long before OW, OW never happened, it was all in my head, i have made a mess of everything, things would have been different if I just stopped......

That this has happened to him before and he knows how i feel about things and its not that bad. That I call people and am selective with what I say and play the victim. That the forum did not work for me and he's surprised, he thought I would be really great after it.

Told me he's happy I got so upset. That finally I see what I've been doing to him and that it doesn't feel nice to go to work like this. Glad I'm upset. Glad i finally see how much I have hurt him.

I told him I would not be transferring the money to his account. I don't trust him. If he wants a BMW I'll write the cheque to them directly and register it in my name, but would not give him the cash.

He jumped out of the car and walked to work. I drove here, still shaking and upset and scared.

------------edit to add----------

He said he understands why the MC is tearing his hair out with us. We both lash out with hurtful comments when we argue and we can't argue at a respectable level. We get low and nasty, drag up the past and have no skills whatsoever. I wrongly jumped into how I had taken my ring off and I get that he doesn't want to be married or work on this so he has his wish. I give up. That was right before I told him I would write the cheque instead of transferring the money.

ok.....you did really well here when you refused to hand him the money. I still don't understand why he must have a BMW? Don't you have any normal cars over there? Can't he drive a simple, brand new car that does not cost the family $70,000?
I am proud of you for holding your ground and not giving him the money. But cant he find a resonably priced car to purchase, so you could still have some money left in the bank for future expenses? That money is not truly "cash in the bank" it is a loan against your home. You should have some tucked away for the future.


I can not blame you for being upset, and saying that you thought he wanted to be a good father. He has put you through he11. But as a general rule, you should not attack him in this way. I just think it is best to not attack his character, and not accuse him of being a bad father. We would always hope he would be a better father, but if you attack his character, he may just give up.

You have every right to tell him that you, and the children, need to be in bed by 9:00 each night. if he would like to be picked up at the train staion, you would be happy to do so, as long as he arrives by 8:30. You are doing this for yourself and your kids! That man is being a selfish child by asking you to get the kids out of bed to pick him up wheneer he feels like it.
Bravo. Well done. the kids need some stability in their life, which includes getting to bed at a decent time each night.
You have set a boundary, and stuck to it.
This is totally unacceptable. without a doubt. You need to tell him that you will never listen to this talk from him again, ever.


He is not going to take your car. you need that car to get the kids to day care, get yourself to work,etc. If he is not interested in staying Married to you, that is unfortunate. It makes you sad to hear that he no longer loves you. But you are still a Mom, you still have children to care for, and responsibilities to take care of. he is not to take your car.
If he would like to talk about purchaseing a car for himself, you would be open for that dialogue. But he is not taking yours.

Why did you call his brother?? Lets not go there anymore. If you are in danger, and need help, then call your own family, or call the police. But married couples do not call their brothers to solve their fights.


Ok, so here you say something like: I am so sorry to hear that. The kids and I have a family. We are loving, and caring. It is too bad that you want to throw us out the window to chase someone who you could never even marry. that makes me very sad.

(I will tell you something I suspect - I think that he is chasing the OW, and she is not all that intersted)

Of course you cant. You shouldn't have to. It is abuse and it needs to stop.

When he sees you upset, he feels like he is back in contorl again. It makes him feel like a big man. The school bully. He wasn't happy when you were calm and talking to him like an adult. he had to keep picking at you and picking at you until you finally broke. Now he is happy again. you are broken again. he feels better. It is sick. He is sick.

Tell him he is a bully and you will not let him bully you any longer. You would be happy to purchase a car for him - but not a BMW. And you will not allow anyone to call you a sl-ut and live in your home. This is your home, your sancuary, and you will protect yourself here.

You are getting tired of his crap. You have being doing the plan A for far too long.

You need to talk to your parents again. I'm afraid you are keeping too many secrets from them.

I read the Verbal Abuse thread and had an attack of conscience when I saw the response by LovingAnyway:-


I believe that I will never experience my old H until I treat him in the manner LA described. I am treating him as a WH and I am getting the WH all of the time.

I called my WH and said I wanted to begin to relate to him with trust and respect and I would transfer the money for the car as discussed.

He realted to me well without anger and said he would do the right thing and had a good feeling about the money we would make on this car. He's right, we do stand to make a lot of money and we've been buying and selling cars for 8 years so I know he's right.

However, I think that he will buy the car and leave me.

Breaking news - DD is sick and I need to pick her up ASAP from day care.

Looks like I cannot transfer the money today, and it's out of my power for today at least. I'll check later for any words of wisdom that anyone can offer me today.

Thank you.

But you have DONE all these things.
You have treated him with love and kindness - even when he did not treat you well in response.

2M2L - you are scared, and you are retreating to the only behavior you know how. You are going back to the endless plan A, because you are afraid to stick up for yourself.

The man called you a sl-ut and said that he hopes you will die, and your response was to tell him you will treat him with more respect and give him $70,000.


If that happens, would you finally stop letting him treat you like crap?


Here are your words of wisdom - don't give him the money.
But I know you will - because you wnat to buy his affection.

Can you at least make sure your name is on the car this time???



Of course he related to you well. He threw a big fit, broke you down, and then got his way. There is his pay off right there.
Heck, I would be willing to bet you get SF out of him tonight after this.

I love you like a sister, but I just don't know if I can watch you self destruct like this any longer.
Is there any chance that you could call the Harleys for a phone counseling session??

I have watched your thread, and not posted before now, but I feel I just have to let you know what I perceive.

If you have $71,000 in the bank, don't you think you could afford at least one phone session with Harley?

Girl, you need to get a PLAN!!!

All I see is a bunch of LB's, on your part, all over this thread!!

You haven't been in any plan here, no Plan A, no Plan B, just plan ME.

Why do you keep letting your WS push your buttons? Can you please step back before you just react? What you are doing is not doing you any good, you are just keeping the dance going.

I know your WS is pretty mean, but you do have a choice of whether or not to respond to his crap. And you do, you just let it rip.

Please don't make me quote, but you just keep arguing. What about meeting his EN's?

Where is your plan?

Why do you trash OW? Why do you say the things you do that are meant to provoke? ie: remarking that your WS would get an expensive hotel room so he can F OW's brains out. NONONONONONONONONONONONO!!!!!!

STOP giving this man ammunition!!!

Please find a plan and quit this nonsense. You are LBing your way right into a divorce.

PLEASE call and make an appointment with MB counselors.

What you are doing is NOT working. Please get a PLAN.

Sorry for the 2X4. :twobyfour:, I just had to. I do not post anything without a great deal of thought.

I know you love your H, but you are not even near to salvaging your marriage or recovery.

You need to work on you. Forget him. Quit playing his game.

You have to start from square one, because what you are doing is NOT working.

I'm sorry hon, but you need to change what you are doing. Please call the Harley's and get some help.

Praying for you,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

PS. Oh, and don't think I don't understand your situation. My H is a musician and had an A with someone he was in a band with.

Thank you for posting Miss M. With all due respect I have been reaching out for months and I know that I am weak and have a razor tounge when I feel threatened. I want to save my marriage, that's why I am here, usually more than once a day, desperately seeking advice.

Regretfully, I rarely think first. I don't know why, I just ramble on because it feels like my right to make him pay for my hurt. I want to stop, I just wish he would stop blaming me for everything.

She drives me crazy and the way he follows her around like a puppy and puts her on a pedestal makes my heart bleed. I have been through this with him and OW1 before and never exposed or confronted her. I guess OW2 is getting both serves.

I made the decision to honestly report my worst behaviour so that I could get honest advice. It is humilating and humbling to say the least, and I welcome your 2x4's.

I have taken your advice and emailed the Harley's. I don't know if it is affordable to do the counselling from Australia, but I have sent the request so I'll weigh it up fully as soon as I hear back. I want to save my marriage. Money is just money.

I noted your sig said recovered. Thank you for sharing with me and for your help. I really appreciate your effort and hope I can change my destructive behaviour before it's too late.

If you have any advice on what I can do differently, please let me know.

From your post and others, I believe I should listen to WH but not react.

I should not yell, scream or get mad.

I should breathe, then respond only when calm.

I should learn his ENs and meet them.

I should set my boundaries and stick to them, quietly and calmly.

I shouldn't ever mention the OW and especially not with disrespect.

I should not respond to his crap.

Is there anything else?

This comment really hurts because I can't blame anyone but me for my actions and I don't want a divorce.

You're right about it all WOF. I will take the ex off my facebook. It was stupid of me to say the least. I do want the past left in the past.

I hope that WH will find the desire to be here and commit to me and our family. I hope I can find the right balance between setting boundaries and not pushing him away.

About the cars, my WH has made about $50,000 over the past 8 years by finding the right deals. It has been a hobby which has really paid off. He trades BMW's because there is more margin for profit.

We did have another win. He called and said they will take a deposit of $1,000 so we can leave the money in the home loan. He will still get a car from them until our car is ready in early Jan 09.

Sounds like a win win to me. Money is untouched and safe in the account

Yes, all true. I need to start to control my actions and reactions a whole lot better and I am doing a bad job.

I have been hiding things from my parents. They believe that him being home is a marriage saved. I have tried to tell them but they look at me like I am making it up and causing problems. Sometimes I think they believe that I should just put up with his behaviour and be happy that he's home.

I am tired. I am hoping I can get a little rule book of do's and don'ts so that I can start to regain control of myself. I was doing better when he was not here last time. This is getting really hard.

Gotta go pick up DS. DD and I have been watching movies. Don't know when WH is getting home but I plan to be relaxed and calm and not react.

SF? I smiled when you wrote that. I am bad at saying no but don't think it will happen. He still wants to punish me I think and pretend he is leaving.

I will not beg.

I haven't put my rings back on. Is that bad? Is that a LB???

Have you picked up "The Four Agreements" yet? Reading there will be a good way to bring back that deep and abiding truth that you learned so recently at the Landmark Forum.

The truth of the matter is that your husband has a nightmare going, and by allowing him to pull you in and take the nastiness he dishes out personally, you make it yours.

What's wrong with quietly hanging up the minute he starts cycling into his negative picture of you. After all, it's HIS picture - not yours. HE DOES NOT DEFINE YOU! Unless you buy into it and engage with it.

Remember the plexiglass wall you can put between the two of you at any time? He throws crap at you and guess who has to clean it up, because you don't let his nastiness touch you. You stay nice and clean on your side of the glass.

Your husband is likely bipolar. and because he's dealing with some kind of mental illness that has him in this place, you cannot marriage build with him. Not until the illness is dealt with. But if you engage with him, you legitimize his behavior and normalize it. Stop it.

Be still within your heart - that means stop REacting and start ACTing. Choosing instead of having your choices made for you by a nutcase!

You get one choice today - how you will behave regardless of how he behaves.

edit to add: YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. You choose this drama day in and day out. There is no such thing as a victim. He's not a victim. He's gone through Landmark so he intellectually knows this but he hasn't chosen it yet. As long as you will engage with him when he goes into his victim cycle you validate that being a victim works for him. STOP BUYING INTO HIS VICTIM CRAP! You make him less than he could be when you let him engage in bullying.

I would strongly suggest that the money stay in your account, until he can string a few days together where there is no nastiness directed at you. Plan B would be a really good thing for the two of you right now, because he couldn't unload on you when he's feeling pain and disgust with himself. Let him unload on OW - and remove any illusions she might have that he's anything but a b* to live with.

I don't know if you are a Star Trek fan - I really got into Next Generation. There's an episode where Troy - the Empath is working with a diplomat - he comes on board with a very old woman he refers to as his mother. She dies shortly after coming on board and he "bonds" with Troy. Troy begins aging and showing signs of personality changes - raging, extreme jealousy. Turns out he's formed a link with her where she becomes a receptical for all of his negative emotions and thoughts, literally. Breaking the link means he has to feel his own emotions and thoughts and he is such a vile person that he dies within moments!

I offer you this visual to keep in mind what you are doing when you allow your husband to say all this nastiness to you - you are becoming HIS receptical - his trash bin - where he can unload all the negativity he feels and he doesn't have to feel it. HE NEEDS TO FEEL IT. He needs to NOT BE ABLE TO TRANSFER THAT TRASH - if you have any hope of being with this guy one year or ten years from now (if you haven't woken up that you deserve a kinder life), he has to mature enough to take it on himself!

2much,

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, it's just that I see you doing what I did for so many years.

Truly, from my heart, I am telling you that you have to change before the dynamics of you marriage will change.

I didn't have MB when my H had his A.

But I did have God. And He spanked me hard. I can tell you that I always felt 'justified' in reacting the way I did to my husband's misbehavior. The Lord gave me Plan A and Plan B before I ever came to this site.

In the end, it did not matter what my H did, it was how I reacted and the terrible things I said that did matter.

I had to learn to step back and not react. I was totally humbled. I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but if you are, I suggest that you read the whole book of Proverbs and see if you see yourself in parts of it.

One suggestion that I have is that whenever your WS provokes you that you step back, and think to yourself, 'what is the healthiest way for me to respond to this? What is healthiest for me, my marriage and my family?' And I mean ANYTIME before you open your mouth to speak.

You have years of reacting in an unhealthy way. It doesn't mean that you are a bad person, it just means that you are reacting instead of acting in a healthy manner that is proactive for your marriage and family.

It takes time to change your REACTIONS. I say don't react anymore. Keep practicing. Let no evil come from your mouth. And when you feel bad about yourself, think: Stop the bad, I am WORTHY.

And you ARE worthy. You just have to start thinking before you open your mouth. Don't buy into the bad things that your H says about you. You may feel justified for being a b!tch to your WS, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. You keep feeding into your WS's madness, and then HE feels justified to keep treating you this way.

A healthy way to respond when your WS says terrible things is just to calmly say 'I am sorry you feel that way.' That's it. No more, and if you can't contain yourself, WALK AWAY.

Your H may certainly have some mental issues himself, but you are feeding into them and it needs to stop.

Please read Proverbs, it will help to teach you how you should behave and live your life.

I am telling you that I was broken, and I have changed, permanently. It is not okay to react the way you have been, it is NOT saving your M.

Start working on this. If you get too upset and feel you will LB, just walk away, quietly hang up the phone, gently say you will not tolerate being spoken to in that manner, and get away from it, especially if you feel you can't control your mouth.

You can't change your spouse, you can only change yourself.

You can't be happy with yourself when your treat your H this way. I am not saying he is okay, he is NOT, but you have to change yourself 2much.

Work on you, work on being that wonderful woman that you really are under all this angst. Change yourself. You CAN help yourself, you CAN stop reacting.

It's a lot of hard work, and it doesn't happen overnite, but I have faith in you, you can do it!!!

Blessings and prayers for your family,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

You have received some great posts, this one in particular is golden:

Also, one of the posts suggests that when he says something mean you should only respond with "I am sorry you feel that way" and then be quiet. That is GREAT advice. because when your WH is talking complete nonsense, it will not do you a bit of good to try to engage him in a conversation. When he calls you names, or tells you that everything is all your fault, you know that is not right. So don't even get into that dialogue with him. I think one of the mistakes we all make, is that we figure there must be something we can say that will make our spouse change.If we could just come up with the perfect, loving, caring, words of wisdom, and speak them out, it would suddenly melt his heart and change him into the H we thought he was years ago. But that just isn't going to happen. Because no matter what you say - he is got something to come back with. And if he feels like he is losing the arguement, he will resort to hurtfull words. So don't go there with him. Simply say "I am sorry you feel that way" and move on. When you no longer receive his harshness, he will quit sending it your way.

Every post here contains true gems for you to soak in. Receive the words the Lord is trying to give you.

Stop. Breathe. Be still. When you have doubts - don't do anything. Resist your impulse to act right away.

Thank you KA, Miss M and WOF.

I am at work and love starting my day with your words of wisdom and kindness. It is the best gift in the world to be blessed with people who are genuine and giving to me, a stranger to you all a few months ago.

I was refreshed and aware last night thank you to the frankness of your messages yesterday. I was able to go a whole night and morning without LB or DJ!

We picked him up from the station. DD and WH are still sick. I got his tea, made him a hot drink and put the kids to bed, and ran him a bath.

He had rebuilt his computer so why he was in the bath I reinstalled e-blaster, which I hate, but I know it's a necessary evil. Knowledge is power.

Then, it was about 9.15pm, he jumped out of the bath and I went to the shops for supplies. Came back at 10pm, he was uploading cars for sale.

Chatted quietly and watched Top Gear UK and made us a snack and cup of tea.

I put everything away and said I was heading off to bed. He looked at me kind of strangely, I think he expected something to come up and I went to bed.

DS woke up at 5:30am. I resettled him and grabbed WH's mobile from the lounge.

He'd called OW once yesterday morning, and she'd called him early afternoon.

He had sent OW one message at 11pm "I'll never be away from you. You know better. I just need out of here. Acid will be there so unfortunately not. Sweet dreams babe."

I don't know what the story is. I guess I am Acid - lovely new term of endearment. He has told her before that he is interstate to have space from everything so it could be that. It could be us meeting this morning to discuss the new car at BMW ($1,000 deposit only). It could be something entirely different.

I wanted to react so badly. But I didn't. I put the phone back and DD woke up and went to lie with WH in longe. WH asked me to lie with them. I spooned him and scratched his back which he loves for about 5 mins. Got up, showered, dressed got everyone out and he drove me to work. No bid discussions, just light and happy.

He dropped me off and will pick me up in 2 hours for the BMW meeting.

I did ask him this morning if he was still leaving today. He said he doesn't know what to do. Tucked DD in last night and she told him she loved him and he's finding it really hard to leave the kids. I said the kids would really hurt.

I asked him if he had cancelled MC today - which is what he vowed to do on Monday night. He said no. He didn't know what to do about that yet either. Was very confused that I had taken my rings off and asked him to leave. I said I thought he wanted me to stop fighting for the marriage and I didn't want to flog a dead horse. Probably a LB now that I look at it. I said I didn't want him to leave, I want to work on M. At the very least I would ask for respect and no conflict.

That was before showers etc.

So, how did I go?

I will take all of your comments on board. They are wonderful. I especially love having a response to his nastiness - I am sorry you feel that way. I'm going to tattoo that on my eyelids.

Muuuuuaaaaahhhhhh!

--------------edited-------------

One LB.

When talking about the rings, I thought he had chosen his friendship over his M and he told me that he stayed with me last night instead of being with her as she'd asked. I didn't say anything else.

I guess I forgot to tell you...NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. Just leave it be. Actions actions actions 2much. I put in bold what is a no no.

About the e blaster. That's fine. About the message to OW. That's okay. Step back. You did good. Just be wise as a snake and as innocent as a dove. You MUST keep your mouth shut and not let on you know anything. I used all info to make my plan better. My H never knew until later. I know it hurts. But do NOT lash out. No more LB's. Use the info that you get for your PLAN A. If your name is acid, then start changing till your name is 'sweet'.

You have to start a good plan A to meet his needs, then, when and if you go to plan B he won't be getting any of the new, sweet 2much, and OW will have to fill those needs, which she can't cause it's all a fantasy anyway. She doesn't have to wash his socks, now does she?

And please, get your ducks lined up financially. Very important during Plan A.

You are doing better, keep it up. I'll keep the :crosseyedcrazy: :twobyfour: coming until you get it hon. This is a process.

When in doubt. Say nothing. And if want to stay married, put the rings back on. Your actions are saying the opposite of what you want, which is to save the marriage. If he says something, just
say you don't do divorce. That's it.

Please tell me you will read the WHOLE book of Proverbs, pleasepleaseplease.

I will not begin to assume that your H is bi-polar. That is up to a professional. I wonder tho, what your MC thinks.


You really have a lot of awesome help here from these wonderful people. Listen up girl.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I think this was good! I wouldn't suggest saying this sort of thing all the time, but darn it anyway, this is true. If he is going to keep telling you that he hates you, and the M is over, then why would he be surprised that you want him to move out?

I wanted to let you know I will be away from the comptuer for a few days. I am taking tomorrow off from work, and then the next couple of days are Thanksgiving Holiday here.
I will be back at work, and on the computer, Monday

Miss M is giving you great advice. Please listen to her.

Remember to be still. Do not feel like you need to act quickly on ANYTHING. Keep reading. Keep posting.

Find nice things to do for yourself. Pedicures, bubble baths, favorite tea.

will be thinking of you

That's the bad thing about MC - all relationship talk Today we both rehashed horrible hurtful things and I confessed to being bulemic again (over past 3 months) and asked him to leave. Said I didn't have the energy to fight for the M anymore. Complimented him on efforts to be responsbile and help with kids etc.

We are not continuing MC. It looks like he will move out. But, saving grace is that MC suggested IC for him/us and I said I have my own arrangements and that left it open for him to take it up. The psychologist is the wife of our MC and will be good for him. If I had taken up the offer WH would probably not have done it too.

I got the prices for Steve Harley but it will be very expensive calling from Melbourne too. I need to decide if I need a IC instead of MB, maybe I can't do this at the moment anyway. I feel like I have really tried but it's gone on too long and I am really struggling with everything.

MC said we may recover our M at some stage, this is not the end, but he really cannot see the situation improving if we do not put the work in and continue with hurt and anger etc. He wants us both to work on ourselves first. Then see where it takes us.

We were both deflated when we left. WH asked me about being bulemic and asked why I didn't mention it. Told him I had tried but he was too busy not listening to notice.

I brought up the living situation and asked where he would go (wish I read about not bringing it up) and he told me that I wanted him to leave etc but he would be responsible and help with kids and make a plan. Told him I want a time frame that he will be gone so that I could make arrangements for leasing house etc. Wow, I said so many wrong things. Asked him if he needed 2, 3 or 6 months etc and what kind of lease he would sign etc. He said he hadn't thought about any of that but I still pushed him. Looks like he was planning to fence sit for a lot longer.

He told me he has been scarred by two images of me. One when he hit me and the other when I thought he was going to hit me again. He said he hates those images and what he did to me and is thankful that those images are there because he never wants to put me through that again.

He also said he sees that all his relationships turn out the same way because he is the same in them. He wants time to work on himself so he can be a better man, then husband etc. Wants me to understand that he cannot be married until he is right, if ever.

-----edited to add------
He said he was never "fixed" but when he met me everything was so wonderful that he thought his previous relationships were the problem, and stopped all IC. He knows he was wrong, but I brought my own baggage too and he never knew about my past relationships or bulemia from years ago until very recently and now sees that I was damaged goods too.
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I am crushed about him leaving and have been crying for 2 hours. I don't want him to leave. I'm being stupid again, yes?

I need to believe I will be ok, better, and maybe now is the time for plan B afterall?

Help!


I am so hurt about being called ACID. It really cuts deeply.

Also, if he moves out now I have no chance to fix my plan A and I am distraught by this. It makes me so sad...

I tried silence today but he kept pushing me. I told him I had nothing to say and stayed cool. I think he hates me for it anyway. I also told him I don't believe in divorce so I hope he understands.

I put my rings back on and I can't stop crying.

I will!