I live and breathe hope Neak. Thank you for checking in on me! I am so happy that you are happy 4 years on. You're an inspriation!!!

He called a few more times today and things are ok. He also sent me pic of the loan car and said I can have it tomorrow too.

His paper statement for his mobile arrived today. Yay.

After D-Day he called her many times but mostly got voicemail so I must have scared her a bit. Their longest conversation has been about 15 minutes and now they talk every few days only for between about 3 minutes at a time. I don't see her calls in, but compared to the frequency of calls to her in the last 3 phone bills, there is a huge, no, mind-blowingly massive change.

I checked it out against the times we spent together and when he had called me and sometimes he did call her right as he met me or right when he left. I know I can't be mad because we are separated and he did not agree to NC.

The times when we felt closest over the last month the contact with her was minimal or non-existant. She changed her number half way through the month and now phone calls to her cost him money. Before they were the same carrier so they were free. Maybe this is helping too!

He told me tonight that if anyone says anything negative about me, including her, he defends me above all else. Apparently I mean that much to him again - or is it to keep me controlled?

We have counselling tomorrow and I remain hopeful that he will turn soon. I have booked in for a spray tan on Wednesday and bought some new sexy clothes today (I've dropped 30 pounds) so that helps lift my spirit and confidence for when I see him.

He is around tomorrow night to see the kids and again on Thursday. I jokingly said that he should stay here on Friday night and I can stay at the backpackers so that I am in the city for my conference. He said no and that I wouldn't be happy??

Every now and then I drop hints into the conversation about what I want and then I follow it up with babble. I don't try to educate but when I asked him if he was now in the 3 night a week band with BF yesterday, he asked me if it mattered. I said it would only matter if we were going to work on our marriage but if he was single it didn't matter. He told me to stop talking about it but I was already giving him my coffee order.

I am getting better at controlling my anger and have been really good with my poker face too.

Please be working plan A!!!!

I had a horrible night sleep with dream after dream of bad news. I guess these are the thoughts in my head but they play out much worse as a movie. In fact, they feel so real that I wake up angry and panicked.

When we were living together I had a couple nights like this and in the morning I would fight with him about my dream. At the time of waking I don't know if it's true or not and it's almost like sleep talking.

Anyway, hoping for a good day.

We are catching up for counselling and today we are talking about our pasts and working on our triggers which have nothing to do with the current R, but everything to do with 0 years to before we met. Should be interesting so I'll update later.

He is over to see the kids tonight and I miss SF. Maybe tonight?

I left a pack of M&M's in the car for him with a note saying sweet things for my sweet man. Too much?

House is immaculate, I look great today, and I'm ready.

Your situation has every reason to be hopeful that this man will some day move back home, and return to the M. But at what cost to you? That is where I am hoping to have an impact on you, your future, your well being.

He sends you messages like this:
I could not hate you more right now if I tried.
That was your last chance to be blown. I am shaking because of you."
And later acts like nothing has happened. Like he did not say anything horrible. And you beat yourself up over it.

You hide things like this:
he kicked my bag into the garage I told my kids that daddy tripped. He maintains they didn't see it and I was telling them information against him.

You did not tell your parents about the time he slapped you. And when he kicked your bag, you covered for him. You told the kids he tripped. And did he appreciate your cover up? No. He accuses you of telling information against him.

My sister, this man is abusing you.

You have asked several times if he is jealous. The answer is yes. Is that a good thing? I don’t know. It is certainly a sign that he will some day return to the M. He wants to have his cake and eat it to. He likes “being” a father. He does not like being alone. But he does not want to commit to you, or the kids. He blames his first A on you, because of the baby. That is a load of crap. Please understand that. His A was NOT your fault.

I have read in several places that the biggest threat to a M is conflict avoidance. And you, my dear sister, are a MAJOR conflict avoider. I recognize the signs, I was one myself. You don’t want to have a fight with your H. You don’t want him to yell, or swear, or say mean things. So you work very hard to keep peace in the family. If he says he doesn’t like something you did, or said, you change that about yourself. You tell yourself that it is your job as the wife, and Mom, to keep peace in the family. So if your H doesn’t like it when you ask him to have a dialogue with you, then you won’t ask. If he says he doesn’t like it when you put fuel in the car, then you will make sure you always keep the car at ¾ tank so he doesn’t think that you made a special trip to get fuel.

But the thing is – this is not a healthy M. You are going out of your way to make him happy, but he cheats anyway. Your H has issues way beyond what you are able to soothe with plan A. This man screwed up once. You forgave him, and allowed him back into your life. You allowed him access to your heart again. You put your heart and soul into the M. You supported him mentally, physically, and financially. Sister – you have done an outstanding plan A. No doubt about it. But it would be a disaster to allow him to come back into your home right now. The plan A you are doing right now will wear you out. If he were to come back right now, expecting the Kingly treatment you have given him, you would soon grow to hate him.

My heart felt recommendation to you, is that you not allow him to come home until after a solid plan B. He needs to know, without a doubt, what a D would look like. He hasn’t got a clue right now. He thinks that he will come and go as he pleases, and give you all the blame. Do NOT let that man come home until he has finally said “My A was NOT your fault. It was my fault. Spot on.” Please, I beg you.
Do not let him home until he has finally quit blaming you.

How do I know he will come home? He tells you it is all your fault, he will never talk to you again, and then calls you the next day. He comes to you for SF and advice. He is clearly attached to you. But the cost for you is way to high right now.

You will need to go to plan B at some time. Before the wedding? I don’t; know. But you will know when it is time. When you finally can say “ enough. I have worth. I have value. I am a child of God, and God’s children should not be treated like this”
His horrible text messages must stop. Straight away. You have tolerated this for too long. His messages are not just “fog” talk. This is typical behavior for him, and no one has ever made him stop. You do not tell your W that you “have never hated her any more than right now” totally unacceptable. You do not want to just lure him back home at any cost. You want him back as a decent H, or he can find some place else to live.

another question to consider:

Do you want to go through all fo this again in 4 years?

I am not saying "dump him, he will only cheat again"

I am saying "set the bar very high this time. Do not let him stroll back into your home until he has made some serious changes"

Thank you WOF. I really needed to hear that.

I have become so accustomed to walking on egg-shells that I really don't know what's healthy and right anymore. I just look for the silver lining and if I see a tiny silver spot my heart does cartwheels.

I am gaining strength and I think I finally see that I do deserve better from him or from someone else. I'm not quite ready for Plan B yet but I spoke with my parents about it last night and they will support me.

If anyone has a Plan B letter to share, it would be great to see it and start working on it. I don't think my H will come back and not blame me without the hard treatment. I agree with you that he expects way too much of me and will continue to blame me. I have become his doormat and he will not be expecting me to stick to my guns this time.

I know he expects me to fold and be happy with his BF being a major part of his life, M or not. Do you think he can go back to being just friends with her and that it will be ok?

I am cringing because I think I know the answer, but the old me just wants to avoid conflict and I know that's one way he would come home.

I suck at this.

NNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Once was almost too much too bear when I was pregnant and emotional and completely vulnerable. I took the easy road last time because I was scared about being on my own with a new baby.

I am stronger now and I have made it through the last 4 months, mostly on my own and I know I can do it.

I would prefer that we live together forever and have an awesome marriage, but I do fear that it will happen again if he doesn't fix things for himself. He has said that before and said that it is him that needs help and that I am the most amazing woman he knows and he doesn't want to hurt me again.

I guess I am still totally scared that I will lose him if I go to Plan B. I know his patterns and he does swing from love to hate in a few days, but you're right and I do not need to live with the Jekyl and Hyde. I want someone who loves and cherishes me and doesn't find excuses to enjoy the company EA, or PA of other women.

As a friend, I want to tell you that I definately see this happening for you right now as well. the M&M's for instance.

I can tell that you are truly a kind woman.You have a genuine heart for other people. But this man texts you that he could not possilby hate you any more than he does right now, and you leave M&M's in the car with a note about how they are sweets for a sweet man. :MrEEk: come one now, the irony of that has got to make you laugh at yourself!!

Are you familiar with Dr Phil? I am not a huge fan of his - but there is one thing that he says that I agree with 100%. That is:
You teach people how to treat you.

When your WH throws one of his childish fits, calling you names and telling you that you "threw away your very last chance", and then you respond with kindness, and you vow to change YOUR behavior, you have just taught him that it is perfectly OK to treat you badly. Why would he stop? His behavior is getting worse all the time, and you are currently hoping for SF? Come on now.

I know where you are coming from - I truly do. I post to you, because I recognize my own past in you. But can you see how you are setting up a really bad relationship for yourself? You are "winning" him back by letting him treat you like crap. He will come back expecting this same Kingly treatment to last forever - and it can't (or shouldn't). In a way, you are not being fair to him. You are just working the Plan A to win him back, but what happens a year from now, two years from now, when you are still swallowing your pride, still putting yourself last, still making excuses for him.

You teach people how to treat you. Teach him a better way, by not accepting his poor behavior.

Your h is trying to confuse the issues by being unpredictable.In other words he is trying to take control in order to further his own agenda.

You really need to get your ducks in a very definite row.

Duck no 1 Is NO access to bank a/c.Well done there. Hang on to that .

Duck no 2
Is not to pay for his housekeeping expenses i.e. food and petrol
I understand your response to this question that seems to be under control good work

Duck no 3
Read W.O.F last post She is asking some very important questions The answers to which will be basic to all further ducks.She knows what she is talking about. Answer the questions and we will try to help you to deal with a very difficult situation -----------to be continued

Thanks for the reply
The most important question was re your children and arrangements for visiting them.

Duck 4
It is very important for their sake to create a regular pattern for their lives .If he is dropping by randomly and unannounced it impacts on your stress levels and consequently their sense of security . Children can detect and react to emotional atmosphere and as you pointed out earlier they show signs of emotional distress in many ways.

Basically the ducks are ways of asserting your independence from emotional, financial and practical reliance on him. You are doing really well in the circumstances. You have your own job, good family relations and seem to manage a huge amount of housework single handed.

The worst problem is dealing with his destructive emotional abuse I think a plan B might help him to get some insight into the damage he is causing to his family.

Your no 1 goal in all of this is to turn him around and to allow him to realise what an awful lot he has to lose.Neak had a good point about using the wedding as a time frame to start plan B.The main reason for using MB is to avail yourself of a well tried system which has a high success rate.

Your Plan B letter needs to include a path back via domestic violence recovery and mental health recovery.

You have no idea how well you could do until you cut yourself loose from this addiction to a mean, violent, self-absorbed adolescent who chronologically may think age = "man".

Hon, one little thing you can change as part of your No More Conflict Avoidance way of life, is to stop calling the OW his "BF". Calling a pig a chocolate chip cookie will not make it one. She's just one more OW, a dime a dozen.

You've gotten some very good advice here, and I'll try to remember to look up my PBL tomorrow. There are others around here, too, that would be good samples.

I read your posts WOF and he asked to take me to lunch before MC. I said yes, but I shouldn't have. I really didn't want to go and I was processing your notes.

I was ok, but definately distracted. He said that he really doesn't trust me at all and I said sure, ok. I really didn't care.

He'd lost his wallet so we ate, I paid! and we went back to his accom to collect his wallet. He gave me money from his teaching yesterday but nothing else yet.

On the way to MC he got a phone call for his OW (thanks Myopia) for another band for more work. He is busy trying to manage her career and really look after her, how sweet! Anyway, I asked if she appreciated his efforts and he was like, yeah, she really does, especially with the country gigs. I said that I was surprised that he wanted to take the country gigs after saying for 8 years that he would never travel more than an hour for work because he'd earned his stripes etc.

Unleash the beast. He put words in my mouth and created a huge argument entirely on his own about what I was getting at. I had no intention of mentioning the extra time they spend together or the long drives together, but in his mind I would have so it was on.

He jumped out of the car as I was parking and raced ahead to the MC where he was happily texting the OW the audition details when I arrived. Oh yeah, loved his work.

We went in, went through our family history and positive and negative influences. I cried when I talked about my mum being a doormat, feeling lost and frustrated when dad wouldn't come home due to being at the pub, feared mum and dad would split, remembered mum had us kids calling the pub to ask dad to come home etc. Messy and weird.

He said he didn't know all of that. I knew most of his but he really struggled to write anything positive about his influences and it was mostly focussed on arguments that escalated into verbal and then physical abuse with his mum hitting his dad etc. He would protect his dad and then run. That explains a lot - I wonder if he saw it.

We had a small dialogue in the car. I mentioned that he made up an argument that had nothing to do with what I said. He said that Saturday arguments are a coincidence because he has no intention of coming home and that it is all my fault and I am destroying the marriage on my own because I am controlling who he works for/with/when and if OW is there.

I asked if I should stay at his accomm on Fri night so that he could spend the night with the kids and we would not be driving back and forth. He said no, it's his sanctuary and I had to find my own.

So he dropped me at my meeting (he insisted on one car before lunch) and waited for me in the car for 45 minutes. It did nothing for his mood. We drove back to my car and he asked me not to talk to him. I was being polite and light hearted. He found the M&M's and threw them out of the car. I put them in my car.

He grabbed the kids from school and I went shopping. He made himself a coffee, refused to make one for me. Kids did not want to cuddle him, just me. I cooked, he said do not make any for me. I said too late, it was plated. He had already helped himself to a few choc biscuits anyway. I told him if he doesn't want me to cook he shouldn't help himself to my cookies.

He found the flight details for the wedding next weekend and asked why he was on it. I told him we booked it on 4 Aug and he wanted to go then. He said no way in hell and to take him off. I told him that it was his responsibility to cancel, his ticket. I would love him to come and the kids would love to spend a holiday with him and it was up to him. You can guess his response.

He sulked on his own on the lounge as I ate and laughed with the kids. After tea he rolled around on the floor with them and I went to run the bath. He came and kissed them and left but not before announcing that he is leaving because mummy is a [censored]. They didn't notice, but I did but did not react. Actually, I didn't react to anything he said or did and just played with the kids and acted sweet and kind and ignored his negativity. I found my things on the floor of the garage including the M&M's!

Just got a message (50 minutes later):-

"I will pick up the kids from school on Friday at 5pm. When you return I will leave. I will arrive at 9am on Sat and spend the day with the kids and drop them off to your parents house at 5 or 6. They can stay at your parents house on Sunday until you return. I no longer want to spend time with the kids when you're around so lets organise that since you can't be civil. Please let me know what money you require for the kids as I have to afford to look after myself too."

I'm just so sick of dealing with this.

Sorry, will respond to other posts in the morning. All hell broke loose tonight. He called me to "dialogue" about getting his things out of the house as he has somewhere to take them and wants his recording equipment to do music, probably with her!

He hates that I am controlling his job, who, where, when, with her etc and I used the WOF line of not controlling him, just protecting my heart and my feelings.

I said it was not convenient to talk moving things out and we'd speak tomorrow after I'd consulted a lawyer. He said that's fine if I had the money to waste and couldn't organise it myself. He then threatened to kill me if I did not let him get his stuff, called me a miriad of names and each time I calmly said please do not speak to me like that and I hung up.

Eventually he said he was calling my dad. He did and was apparently quite nice to him until dad asked how it was going and he said I was horrible...dad hung up.

Mum and dad arrived in minutes at the house and my sisters were on the phone shortly after. He had messaged them to say I was malicious and a horrible person and no one knew how I really treated him behind closed doors...

He has no one on his side including his family, I am doing the Forum this weekend, he is jealous of X, whatever that is, and I think he is feeling very out of control and just blowing a lot of hot air to try and get what he wants from me.

He said he will call the MC to explain things tomorrow about calling it quits, but the kicker is that he said if MC told him a good reason to keep going, he would!!!!! WHAT????

"...It's over, I'm getting my things, you have completely lost it and have blown your last chance, but if the impartial MC wants us to work on our marriage because he thinks there's a chance, I will???????????????..."

I'm going to bed to hopefully sleep.

WOF, you know the pattern, I know the pattern, I think my family now know the first angry part of the pattern and you'll be happy to know I told them about him hitting me, abusing me and breaking things around the house. They are informed and angry and ready to support me even more. I read today's posts to them and they certainly thank God for you too and your wise words today to not take him back like this and without conditions. I feel stronger already!

Enough of the pattern!

How do I break the pattern?

What can/should I do to teach him that I do deserve more than this abuse?

How do I find, enforce my boundaries?

How do I stop the vicious cycle that has been my life?

How can I stand up for myself without making him worse?

Please expose this to your dad and the police. Because he needs to be THE MAJOR SUSPECT if something happens to you.

You should have called the cops when he slapped you. Now he threatens your life and you don't even wince, flinch or otherwise move to protect yourself?

Change the locks. Call the cops. See about a restraining order - TODAY!

CALL THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your life, and the lives of your children, may well depend on it.

You have taken the first really big step - you have finally started sharing the truth with your parents. Do not stop now! Be 100% open with them. Your life, and your childrens lives, depends on it. I am not exaggerating here. This man will steal your children away from you in order to control you. You have got to quit worrying about him – right this very minute – and worry about your children.

Cancel your forum for this weekend. You need to be with your children. Pack your bags and go stay with your parents. This is not for ever – but it is for now. Do this today. Immediately. That man DOES NOT PICK UP THE CHILDREN FRIDAY NIGHT, AND HE DOES NOT COME INTO YOUR HOUSE.
You are very vulnerable right now. I know how it feels, but please allow me to show you some tough love for now. You need to let you parents intercede on your behalf for a while. The man has abused you for so long, that you do not recognize abuse any longer.

Do you have some type of womans shelter in your area? A phone line to call for women? You may not need to stay at the shelter, but you still need to call them. You need help from people with experience in this area. Because this man should not be alone with the children. PLEASE listen to me. Do NOT let him take them. I know he is “their father” but he is fully capable of doing them harm in order to “show you something”. You need to talk to a lawyer TODAY. You need to find out how to best protect yourself, your children, and your home. Your WH wants to pick up some stuff? Ask the lawyer how to handle that, and do not keep secrets from him. Tell him you are afraid, and tell him why, He will set up arrangements for you to comply with the law, let your WH get his stuff, but still protect yourself. You will most likely need to have the police watch him as he collects a few things, but please get advice from the experts.

Listen, I know all of this is hard to hear. I am not saying that this man is hopeless, that your M is hopeless. But, he needs help that is far greater than you can give him. He needs intensive, on going help. And you are not doing him any favors by molly coddling him along. You are allowing him to act like a complete a$$ and you reward his horrible behavior. This needs to stop today. And you are very fragile right now, that is why you need help. Let your parents help you. I would also suggest that you hand your cell phone over to your Dad, and let him handle the calls and messages. Please listen to what I am saying!!

You are also hiding some dark secret from his past. I do not know what it is – and I do not need to know. But you said that it is something that could put him in jail. I am fearful that this secret involves a physical crime against someone else. Please keep that in mind. This man is capable of causing great harm.

If you are not comfortable sharing all of the details of his abuse with your parents – then please talk to your pastor, or a counselor. You need someone to come along side and guide you.

Please tell us what steps you have taken today to protect yourself!!!

I wanted to specifically address your questions, just so you would know that I am listening to you:


You hand your cell phoone to your Dad and say, as of today I will not stand for this abuse. I am a child of God, and I will not allow one of Gods children to be treated this way.


By working with a counselor who has experience in this area. Someone who has worked with abused women before. You see, you learned a bad pattern from your Mom. I know all about it - I learned it to. Conflict avoidance. it is a bad plan. So you need to work with someone who can help you learn a new plan.


build a good, strong network of supporters.


You stand up for yourself, and your children, and quit worrying about "making him worse". You are not his Mother, his counselor, or his savior. It is not your job to save him. Pray for him, and then get the heck out of the way and let God deal with him. He had a bad childhood, ok. He has shared some bad stuff with you. it is not your job to fix him, train him, or educate him. Knowing that he is broken, does not mean that it is your job to fix him. And I will even challenge you further:
If you allow him to continue the abuse, and someday his tantrum gets carried away and he causes you permanent damage- handicap, scarred, or blind. Or he decides that the best way to put you in your place is to hurt the kids, if you continue to engage him,and he does something really,really bad, do you think that would be helpful to him? Don't you think it would be better to pull yourself out of his way all togehter, and "save" him from doing something even worse???

2much2lose - your screen name is appropriate. You DO have too much to lose... yourself and your children if you remain in this marriage.

My 22-year-old daughter just walked away from the same situation. It wasn't until she was laying on the floor, coming too after he choked her unconscious that she got it. She ran right then and hasn't looked back. They have two children as well. I see the same personality in your WH as her BF (the father of her children) had. It was all about him, what made him happy, what concerned him. He had no compassion at all for her or his kids. Oh, he could fake it every now and then and be sweet, but it wouldn't take long for something to come along and set him off and it was ALWAYS my daughter's fault.

This man is an abuser-- verbal and soon to move to physical. It doesn't get better as time goes by, it only gets worse.

Listen to WOF and the others... get. out. now.

Just out of curiosity, you said this is his second marriage. What happened to his first marriage? Do you know? How long had he been divorced when you met him, or was he divorced yet?

Girlfriend, you have such a low opinion of yourself because you've chosen to BELIEVE his crap. You are so much better than that. Your kids deserve a healthy and happy mommy. Get the help you need today.

Thank you for your replies.

He texted my aunty in Adelaide last night to tell her we're "unfortunaley separated" and he would not be attenting the wedding. She sent me a text to say they are thinking of us all.

Huh.

I need to go into a meeting this morning but I wanted to let you all know that I'm ok.

Steps I've taken:-

The school calls me if he enters to see or take the kids

My parents will have the kids from Friday after school till Monday morning.

I have emailed our MC with all of the ugly details - see below

My parents, my sisters, his brother and our mutual friend were all briefed on the situation last night

I will contact a lawyer and a domestic support group today

I'll stop crying and start acting

Thank you all for being there for me. I am so blessed to have found you all and you have all helped me listen to my inner voice which I have softened and ignored for so long. I do feel afraid and it's ok - I should!

I think you left out the see below part!


its ok to cry, and act at the same time!