Since he is in the 'normal' part of his abuse cycle, why don't you take this time to set up some new rules for him? Such as from now on he can only visit the kids at your parents' house, supervised, until he has completed this counseling. That keeps him away from you and the fix he's getting by coming near your house and reduces the likelihood he's going to blow one of these days that he comes by the house and wants in. It also protects your kids from him blowing a gasket in front of them because he'll be more likely to watch himself in front of your parents; we know he won't in front of you.

Please start setting stronger boundaries.

Hi Catperson,

Well, if you saw my new thread about Fireproof the Movieyou would by now know that I didn't see your message or Karma's message until this morning.

We had a chat today and he voiced that he wants to work on his anger and then work on our marriage so that he can put me first and never waiver towards another again and never hurt me again.

I told him that I would love for us to be a strong happy family that was all together, but I could not imagine that unless and until he had completed anger management groups, IC and I was in a position where I felt safe and was treated as an equal in the relationship.

It was a powerful conversation. He kept saying that he didn't know what I wanted and it was making him frustrated and angry so hopefully this clears things up.

As for boundaries, I do not speak with him when he is angry, he asks me before each and every visit and in fact did ask me yesterday if I would still feel comfortable with him visiting after his melt down. I told him that the kids were expecting him but I was not comfortable. He reassured me that he would leave if I felt uncomfortable at any stage and he would do all that he could to assure me that he was there peacefully.

I turn off my phone after 10pm. I do not answer his calls from work, he actually emails me if he needs something.

My boss told me today that senior management had discussed my situation and they have offered to fund a legal appointment for me to assess my options. She also said that if he involves my clients or the company, they will take it up with him as a corporate matter and please let WH know they are aware of the situation and that they support me.

I reported this back to WH and he was defensive but realised a consequence he hadn't seen coming - that there would not be a possibilty of working with my company in the future - it was always a part of his plan.

He said that he recognises that it shouldn't involve work but at the time he wanted me to fear losing my job so that I'd know how much I had hurt him etc. He still goes on about his hurt from exposure.

Sigh. This is all so hard. I know I could make it easier by stepping up and going legal on his behind, but I am not ready.

Glad to hear it. I like what you have to say except for this part:

This is the one thing he CANNOT reassure you on, because by the time he gets near your house and his emotions get the better of him, you don't just turn off a switch.

Please reconsider letting him come to your house. Listen to those of us here who know more about anger and abuse than you do, and who aren't looking at it from the spouse's perspective. You may be able to handle what he does in a rage, but think about what it will do to your kids.

Thanks Catperson. The encouragement is what I needed to hear to let me know I am on the right path, albeit somewhere near the beginning

WH mentioned yesterday that his dad has been pressuring him about coming home. Said he always has a place to stay with him and then gets mad and abusive and kicks him out to work it out with me and puts the blame on him and makes life hell. Tells him to leave me and look for happiness one minute and then he married me for life and he's so disappointed in him the next. It doesn't surprise me at all. His family know nothing of unconditional love and forgiveness and it breaks my heart that he was brought up in an environment like that. It doesn't excuse anything, just helps explain some of the possible triggers for his mood.

We did speak this afternoon about the visits with the kids. He was pushing for extra time over the weekend as I had mentioned and thought that my 5 nights a week with the kids evened it out.

I explained that as a working mum the start and end of the day are a mass of rushing and eating, dressing and sleeping and no chance to relax together and chill out and play with my kids.

I told him that I think it's great that he wants extra time, but I hoped we could discuss it and do a weekend on, weekend off to make it fair. He actually complimented me and said the way that I look after the kids and put them first and want him to have extra time with the children is one of the things he really loves about me. He told me he loves me, loves that about me. It all rolled in to one, but it has been an eternity since I had a compliment from WH. He said that he was afraid to give me a compliment but he just wanted me to know...

Fireproof?

He agreed to think about the days and work it out with me and lost his selfish impulse. Wow.

This weekend is a bit different because it's DS's 2nd birthday and we will be spending time together then and tomorrow night I will stay at the house to make his birthday cake during the visit too.

WH asked me if I would be staying over the weekends when he visits. I said that was not the plan and that it was his turn with the kids and it wouldn't really work for me and my chance to have my own plans. He said he would like me to be around but wouldn't know until he knew how he felt at the time. I paused, then said that's why I won't stay around during his visits. He said he understood and would see how he goes with his anger managment course.

So, it's a lovely peaceful night here and I feel relaxed and ok about the direction it's going. I never thought I would be thankful for his A but I am so lucky to have a chance to stop the cycle of abuse and stop walking on eggshells and a chance at a happy marriage. I'll never thank OW or WH for that, but I would have never found you all without OW. Ugh.

I hadn't spoken with my IM since Christmas and WH's meltdown so it was great to hear from her last night.

I must say though that I am really disappointed in her.

When she separated from her H a few years ago he sorted himself out, worked on his anger and control, worked on being a loving and supportive partner and she knew she had a dedicated and loving H.

Whilst they were separated, she found someone else and was considering moving interstate and it was the kick that her H needed to appreciated her and fight to win her back. It hasn't been right sexually between them and I wonder if this has prevented them getting close. She said he repulses her when he touches her and she liked SF with her A partner.

Now, she has found someone else. They have moved house and she hates it. She's become a workaholic and she met her EA at the new job. Apparently it's just a friendship at this stage, but he makes her so happy...

When she called me last night I had already gone to bed so it was a very short conversation. I really didn't know what to say to her, still don't.

I am so sad for her children and her H. He may not be the sharpest tool on the shelf, but he really stepped up and now that he is what she wanted, she's pushing him aside, again.

I am just so upset that the person I trusted to save my marriage and knew my details from the inside out has now chosen to put her H through the BS minefield.

I have only met her H a couple of times, he seems sweet and dedicated and they've been together for 15+ years. Should I try to talk to her or do you think her fog won't allow the discussion?

Advice appreciated.

Any updates?

2M2L:

People who are in abusive relationships develop a profound (and hidden) psychological approach to all relationships. Colloquially, it's called "splitting". When you "split" in a relationship, you turn the person into two people - the loving, working-on-it, trying to figure things out, sympathetic, deserving-of-your-love person....and then the abuser.

Folks who split pay an inordinate amount of attention to the positive side, and close their eyes, grit their teeth, downplay and diminish the abusive side. (There's a ton of research on this in the clinical literature - don't take my word for it.)

Unfortunately, splitting is what gets partners of abusive spouses killed - or they continue to expose themselves and their children to trauma - or they persist in a damaging relationship - or they end up dead by their own hand.

The other problem is that once you start splitting (and everyone in an abusive relationships for any length of time splits - how else can you stay in?) - the pattern becomes ingrained and applied across-the-board to all relationships. You don't see the danger signs. You diminish the tendencies to behave badly.

My guess is that this is the case with you and your IM.

The key thing in cognitive therapy with people who stay in abusive relationships are the words I'm typing right now: YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE PERSON AS A WHOLE.

Your husband has a years-established pattern of yo-yo'ing between overtly abusive and better behavior - but what you don't yet "get" is that the WHOLE PERSON IS AN ABUSER. The yo-yo is WHAT ABUSERS DO. The "I don't know what I'm doing or why I'm acting this way" IS WHAT ABUSERS DO.

I went back today and re-read your entire thread and I do not see ONE THING that makes him different from the abusers I treated for the 15 years I was in practice. And you are a classic, textbook, abuser's spouse.

Start practicing how to get toxic people out of your life by kicking your IM out of your life. Tell her that you can't have another person around who is engaging in adultery. End of discussion.

Then go re-read your whole thread yourself. Map the whole thing - all the hostile, degrading, threatening, angry, irresponsible, inappropriate behavior from your WH - and then all the cases in which he's "been nice" or halfway acted like a human being.

Then, recognize that you have NEVER had the pseudo-human being without having the abuser. You are NOT protecting your children; you are consciously exposing them to the abuser.

STOP SPLITTING. The vicious husband and the almost-human are one and the same.

And you cannot keep that person in your life and the lives of your children unless you admit that you have become an abuser (of your children) yourself - look what you continue to expose them to.

If you're OK with that, then by all means, continue.

Crimminy, this is an incredibly wise post miriam123. I'm in the process of determining who my WW is as a whole and if I can live with it. She even says these destructive parts of her personality are just HER. Basically, she was this two-sided nut when I met her 10 years ago, settled into a pretty centered, caring partner in our life together, but has returned to the two-sided monster again during her affair. I'm in the position to see if she can change this cycle or if this is just who she is. If that's the case, I can't live with her.

Sorry to hijack, this just struck a very strong chord with me.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2207963&fpart=1

hi 2m2l

miriam is spot on-------------- listen up

I always thought that my h was an adult who occasionally had temper tantrums and behaved like a spoilt child.
It has taken me a very long time to figure that he is a very spoilt baby who can act the part of an intelligent adult whenever it suits him

This concept unfortunately is,I believe, the truth

Miriam's post was excellent and I fully agree that you are not doing your children any favors by keeping him in your life, right now.
Look at it this way: If your WH was a plate of food that you were served, part of which was your favorite dessert and part of which was a stinky pile of rotten potato salad, guarenteed to make you sick, would you keep the plate and try to just eat the yummy parts (which I'm sure will start to smell and taste like the rotten food) or send the plate back? I hope send the plate back and ask for healthy, clean food -- even if that means no yummy dessert. That's what you deserve. That's what your kids deserve.
I know relationships are not so simple, but sometimes when we are too close to it, its hard to see it for what it really is and let me be clear here:
ALL OF YOUr HUSBAND'S BEHAVIOR IS ABUSIVE --EVEN THE "NICE" BECAUSE IT IS DESIGNED TO OFF-SET THE CRAPPY BEHAVIOR. IT IS NOT TRUE, KIND BEHAVIOR.
Until he gets truly healthy, which he needs to do on his own, without your help, all of his actions should be seen as part of an abusive pattern. Not, today he's better and making progress and tomorrow he's cruel again.

Hang in there, 2m2l, we are all pulling for you and your kids.

I read your posts quickly yesterday but didn't have time to reply.

It was probably good because I had lots of time to reflect.

Miriam, one of the reasons I had not replied is that I googled splitting, abuse etc and was reading about the concept.

It's scary, but I believe it to be true. I think it is a learned skill for me. My dad was an alcoholic for years but sensitive and kind at times too. I guess we were 'taught' to love the two sides of him, not look at him as one in the same.

I don't know what to say really. I have printed the thread but it sits in my drawer at work and I cannot take it home for fear of discovery. I will have to find the time to map it out as you suggested.

The birthday weekend was good. I had a great night with my family on Friday and woke up and decorated DS's cake on Saturday morning with DD. The kids were great all day but I was so busy getting organised.

WH called an hour before the party to check in and was bemused that I hadn't called him and asked for help - I called my mum. He had made it clear he would be busy getting things for DS and wouldn't have time! UGH!!

The party was awesome. There was one point when I looked for WH and assumed he was on the phone to OW. It was enough to make him mad at me. I shouldn't have looked for him. He was in the bathroom, but still could have been on the phone. It's hard to turn the triggers off.

We got home from the party at 8:30pm and put the kids to bed. I packed and went to my sisters house. WH was being mean and wouldn't say what time he wanted to leave on Sun and what time I should come home. He still doesn't know where I stay when he is there.

I got home at 1pm and he was cleaning. He threw the vacuum cleaner down and said he was leaving and kicked my laptop as he walked past me. I was holding the bag and he kicked my leg by mistake. I was walking so I can see how it happened, but bag or me makes no difference.

He left and I was in tears. It hurt physically and emotionally. I am tired of these games.

He came back on Sunday afternoon to fix the light in the bathroom. I told him not to, I had it under control but he said its his house too etc. I told him I did not feel safe with him in the house. I stayed in the other room and kept emergency numbers semi-dialled on the phone next to me.

Anyway, he chilled and stayed for tea with the kids and then went to work. All up it was 2 hours, but I hated it.

Monday night he came for DS's birthday. I told him I didn't want him there and felt very uncomfortable. He told me he had called the men's referral line again and is trying to get help. I know he's locked in to the course through my spying but May 20 is a long long way away.

He still has his visits with the kids at home and I still plan to leave when he is there. Sunday was an exception because he was fixing the electrics and the power was off and that's not a good mix with active toddlers. Monday was an exception too because it was DS's birthday.

I am finding the womens helplines completely useless. There is a group course for women suffering domestic violence and that starts in April and I am signing up for that. Whenever I suggest he sees the kids other than home he tells me it's his house too and I'll have to take the kids 1.5 hours to him 3 times a week. He tells me I'm getting everything I wanted and he is getting the raw end of the deal.

I am still confused.

I am still scared.

I am still completely confused about how I got here.

He was once a loving husband but the past 8 months have been telling. I just hope that he hasn't gotten too used to this power path and that he sees the destruction and that he craves the change that he speaks of.

Thanks too BF, Myopia and CP for your thoughts and replies. Goodluck Zen.

-----------edited to add------------------

Wow - big omission. He stayed at the house on Monday night. He has been working long days and 7 day weeks and was so tired and it is a long way to drive hom. Now, I had planned to go to my parents but I didn't. He stayed in the lounge on the couch and did not intrude on my space at anytime and was in a 'normal' cycle.
There has not been SF since 9 Feb and I plan to keep it that way. He was respectful and we left before him and he helped with the kids in the morning. I know he misses the normality of living with his family but he is convinced that we can't work things out because we "both" need help.

That in itself buys me time. I have told him that I will not discuss a relationship until after men's anger management group and then we can talk.

You can stop them, you just won't! 2M2L, you can stop this ANY TIME YOU WANT! Please remember that. If you stop giving your baby (WH) candy (kids, SF, ETC) when he tantrums he'll learn it won't get him anywhere.


You're confused because you're going in the same circular abuse pattern. The motions are making you dizzy. Yet the dizzier you get the more you seem to crave getting back on the rollercoaster...

2m2l, I'm sure there are some forums like this, but for people in abusive situations. Why don't you look for some, so you can get some advice from others in your situation? It will give you added information and control over your life.

Start telling yourself that you are as valuable as him, if not more so, for what he's done, and that you have the right to a happy life.

2m2l,

I just wanted to let you know that I ahve been keeping up with you to the best of my ability.

I can share my experience with you and tell you what you need to do but until you are truely sick and tired of accepting unacceptable behavior from your WH, there is no point in my POV...

I think that you want change but you are so scared of it that you can't understand how much beter your life will be...

You probably feel that your hands are tired when in fact they are not...it's a matter of the choices that you are making and you "can't see" that there are others to make...

What's it going to take?

:twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

My last 2 x 4 on 2M2L's board. I bet you're all so excited. (I am truly sad to be posting this...)

Catperson...

She's not taking anyone's advice (I don't know if she sees my contributions, she probably has me blocked) now. What makes you think she will listen to someone else even if they have been in her situation? (Oh...wait. She already did that with someone here who was in that situation.)

I will no longer post to you, 2M2L. I will browse your board and pray you come to your senses and think of your children and DO SOMETHING to protect them rather than allowing your AWH (abusive wayward husband) to walk all over you, hit you in front of them (thereby showing them that since mommy lets daddy hit her then all men are supposed to hit women and that such behavior is normal) and then treating this board like your own personal blog while you ask what you're doing wrong.


They deserve better. You may not care about your well-being, but you should look out for THEIRS.

As S4B asked--what's it going to take?

You're right, kr. The only reason I suggested it is that I've experienced that these women typically believe they're all alone, it's just their particular situation, it's just a fluke, they can deal...but if they see how prevalent it is, and hopefully find a forum where people have left and flourished, it might give her some impetus. It's the feeling all alone that IMO keeps them from moving.

I have to say, though, 2m2l, with all the great advice you've gotten and ignored, I'm ready to think that you are just getting a payoff from him treating you this way. What is your payoff? Is it more important than raising kids who will go on to abuse or be victims and miserable like you?

KR and Cat,

You have an accurate picture from the outside, but not from the inside.

KR - you've grown up seeing marriage from a child's critical eye - and LEARNED - bless you - about what an ideal marriage is NOT - and you're here learning how ideal marriages are made out of what was once really bad.

I grew up with that same critical eye - the one that could see things were not right - only the violence was there. I remember begging my mother to leave the marriage many times, simply because I knew the violence would not change just because she wanted it to; it required stronger actions.

But then I worked in a domestic violence recovery center as a volunteer - a women's shelter. some of that trapped mentality that my mother had started making it through to my understanding and compassion, though I was trained to not enable it, I understood why they weren't ready to take actions needed to save themselves and their children from this ugly part of humanity.

Because of all of these things, when domestic violence became part of my marriage on 3 different occasions, the first time, I remember the truly dead feeling I had; it was six or seven years between that and the next incident; at that point I pushed back, and the third incident left the home and began my repetitive mantra - "I don't need to be married that badly". Softly, and in a safe place. I went completely out of reach for Kasey to coax me back - and he was at the time, still on his high horse making demands and conditions for my return - as if he hadn't done anything wrong. Too bad, so sad - I wasn't budging. I was ready for divorce, and the only thing that stopped me was a lack of a $500 filing fee.

When Strivin's husband burned her books, I was scared for her - I lost sleep, but she had to go through her own realization that her marriage was not safe and that she didn't need to be married so badly that she was willing to become a prisoner of that kind of relationship.

DTP has recently exited an abusive marriage - much more frightening and urgent and obvious than Strivin's. 2Much's husband is a lot more sneaky and psychological. So right now, no matter how much we shout it, she's not going to get it. I remember four months of Strivin's "marital recovery" where she was so immersed in meeting his needs holding my breath sometimes. My "creep factor" alarm kept going off - but until it went off for Strivin, nothing was going to change.

2Much - since the women's shelter isn't providing the support you need, see if there's a psychiatric hospital with a women's program that might have a domestic violence recovery group for women... I know you're beginning to see the trap you're in - it wasn't an accident that he kicked you btw - that's just his excuse - he wants to hurt you physically and hurt you badly that way, but that part of his conscience hasn't completely burned away with his rage... yet. You won't see it coming when something triggers him past that barrier and it could be a fatal mistake for you. Please take up a more proactive protection approach.

There is nothing, nothing in this post that has to do with MB.

It is scary that this has been going on since October, and the abuse only seems to have gotten worse. It appears that there are posters on this thread who fear for the very safety of this family. Physically and emotionally.

It takes TWO to create a family dynamic that is both dangerous and abusive to the kids. Please get yourself some psychiatric help. You are not helping yourself nor your H -- and at the very least - you certainly are NOT doing your kids any favors with this dog and pony show going on.

I have a scenario in mind as a response: <heavy with sarcasm..>
"Oh well, BC- thanks for all the support." OH by the way, my husband kicked me (by accident)--broke my computer, again and swore at me for 45 min... but he came over Sunday and we had a delightful time, between text to the OW..."

This is not a MB scenario. All the posters here want you, S4B- to be secure, happy and most of all safe in your life. It is apparent you just don't get what they are telling you.
I hope this is a 2x4 that wakes you up.

Your children DESERVE at least one parent with the guts to fess up and get the proper (note: mental) help they need.

Peace out.

It is not I that is in danger anymore, Barbiecat and no this is not an MB sitch.

Neither was mine when I appeared some years ago!

No amount of sarcasm is going to get 2m2l to do any better than she is doing today! It's a process...JUST like recovering from an A, or a surgery, the grief of a loved one...

The light bulb does not simply click on at the wall switch...there's a faint glow and it gets brighter as all of the pieces are put together...that is when the individual is ready to accept the reality of the sitch...

...it's not easy, and I'm not making excuses for anyone in the same sitch...

Thank you for your time posting...everyone of us need support that are here for whatever reason we are here...

...mostly to learn about healthy relationship...

I mean... re read this thread. From Oct. until now.

Show me where there is the MB process going on...

I did not mean sarcasm-- re read what is listed in the prior entries.. abuse, doormat...abuse...doormat. Financial ruin..doormat. Flip, flop- flip, flop. This is how women wind up in the hospital or worse. This is how little girls learn to accept/take part in this type of marriage. This is how sons learn to treat their wives.

I am dead serious.

I was only pointing out repeated scenarios that are, <from someone that is new looking in, maybe>-- shown over and over.

I would not have read or posted had I not felt strongly about this topic. I want 2m2l - (sorry, prior error) to have a life, a real one where she does not have the drama of locking the doors, bruises, emotional assults and outright theft of her house equity and money going on.

MB does not say that all marriages should be saved.

This poor gal has described passive agressive behavior against her, direct and possible financial devastation at the hands of am almost 40 year old man! She is 32!

It is clear (let's talk the $300 gift "now put me back on your account" trick, or the re fi stuff) that he manipulates 2m2l still to get his wants, and she pays dearly when he does not get them. What kinds of FRIENDS or HELP are we giving her when we advise her to keep this relationship up?

Believe you, I do not post negative things about people. It is not my nature.

Maybe in months/years down the road when both of these people realize what adulthood is really like then we can help them.

I mean, I admire anyone here who tries to help anyone in this world. You give your time and effort to help. But sometimes you have to understand what is MB -- and what is BEYOND MB.