WEll Hello 2much...I was asked to drop in and although I haven't read your complete story yet, just this page, I hear myself in you!

POWS (piece of wayward sh)t)...talked alot of game and I think that he really meant what he was saying but COULD NOT AND DID NOT in the back of his mind want to follow through...things is I was the strong one and didn't know it at the time...I thought that there was something wrong with me...I wasn't this or that...I talked to much...I was the angry and hurtful one...thing is I was bouncing off of him, projecting my feeling on the kids and accepting all of the cr@p tha was the through at me...believing him stuff as MY truth...

It was certainly a love hate relationship...there was always someone in the background that was his "friend"...I didn't trust him but wanted to trust him and believe the best, I wanted my M...but it ate at me...

It was okay for him to do certain things but if I tried/did he would turn things around and it was all me...

I had a PA right after YS was born...I was so wrong, I was looking for the love that I really wanted from my H but that didn't make me feel any better...it killed me more...and after I told him, years before I found MB, I was doing the MB plan...NC, transparency...H remained friends with him and I couldn't stop that but I would tell H when I talked to OM, what was said and let him know that OM would be contracting him...I was out to prove to him that I was true...

BUT POWS would not let me live it down...would through it in my face from time to time if I complained about him talking to someone...it was his way of deflecting his actions and putting it back on me, then I had to defend myself becasue after all I was doing anything, talking to anyone...I had no friends of my own at that point...

I fought for years to get him to stop talking to certian ppl that made me feel uncomfortable...then there was the last OW...I felt sure that it was just an EA...I was wrong...PA for over a year, all the lies, the sneaking around, and I fought to recover my M...and he fought back...BUT he started getting violent...never hit me in all the time that we were together and to this day still swears he would NEVER do anything like that...that he doesn't believe in it, but I felt it...by the time that I left I feared him...the hitting walls, breaking stuff, tracking me down, burning my books (HNHN, SA, Dr. Phil's self)...why because they were man hating books...

I heard my POWS in your thread...


POWS talked often of wanting to be a better man...even admitted that he was addicted to the excitment...even told me once that he liked having him wife and GF at the same time...HOW abusive that was to me? LOL...I can laugh about it now, but it hurt like he))...


I made excuses for POWS too...BUT IF YOUR H REALLY WANTED WHAT HE SAYS HE DOES THEN HE WOULD DO IT!

I feared being alone...I feared the unknown...what wil life be without POWS? How will I do this or that? WELL, you know what...LIFE HAS NEVER BEEN BETTER!!! THe boys and I are doing WONDERFUL!!!! Christmas is going to be great, I have changed jobs, got promoted to acting Director within 8 months and NOW I'm a Director in training...with a raise to come and a bonus this coming Monday...

I am NO LONGER THAT angry, hateful, resentful person who didn't know that happiest existed...I am happy all the time, barely get down, and when I have to deal with POWS now, he makes me laugh...I can clearly see the manipulation, the empty promises not just to me but the boys too...

I talk to him, hear what he says and am amazed at how stupid is as stupid does...

Thing for your H and my POWS, they use their charm to get you to crack the door and then they slip on it...becasue you are the wonderful person that you are....I still struggle sometimes with dealing with him...I ahve to make sure that I don't crack that door...because IF I DO...I start believing and he starts using me...from the littlest thing like christmas lists to SF...I ahve been where you are...

IT'S HARD, REALLY HARD but YOU CAN NOT talk to him at all...there will be times when you feel it in your bones, and taste it in your mouth BUT YOU CAN'T...everytime you step back to him....how does it make you feel? I felt studip, kicked myself, was ashamed because i wanted better, I wanted to leave him alone but something kept drawing me back...

I have to talk to him from time to time now about the kids but I draw a hard line in the sand...I speak, get to the punch and I'm out of there...YOU CAN DO this!

I will read some more of your thread...I know that it hasn't been an easy road for your with small kids but you can get there...I use to hope that he would change...that down the line a few years we would get back together, but the more I got to see from afar, the more I got to see that his bark is far louder than his bite!

Best Wishes and I will be around... just stop enabling him! and I say that out of care and concern...all of it!

Do you hear him making excuses for himself? Oh WOW, he's AN AWESOME GUY because he helped her because he's a producer...it will not HAPPEN AGAIN with her or anyone else...I'm not getting on you, not in the least...WHAT HAS HE SAID IN THE PAST? DID HIS WORDS CHANGE ANYTHING? Maybe for a few weeks, a month, two months, to your knowledge...THEN IT WAS RIGHT BACK to him having to fed his ego...becasue in his eyes, I'm sure that he's an awesome father, husband, brother, friend, coworker...goes out of his way to help ppl, bends over backwards for them...but what about you and the kids? Does he bend over backward for you? The kids? Does he put you first or does he put himself first? and the same question with the kids?

As far as OW being easily impressed and misled...I was that woman with POWS...he would tell me all the right words when I needed to hear them and then WHAT? No follow through...you are looking for the follow through...that's it...LOL...

You do sound strong and good, keep close to your family!

Thank you for stopping by Strivn4Better. I have been crying for the last hour since reading your post to me and thought I would stop before I replied...nope, still crying! I thought people on MB were trying to help save my marriage. I never realised that people were actually trying to save me!

Reading your post to me made me realise that maybe this wont work, maybe one person can't save a marriage, maybe some marriages shouldn't be saved.

I don't want to admit that I have chosen the wrong person! I want to believe so much that he can change and that we can have an amazing marriage. I want to believe that he is being sincere now. I don't want to look at our babies and tell them that daddy is never coming home. I don't want to face a life of uncertainty, but it's actually what I have been living with regardless.

WH has said so many times that he is not a good husband or a good father, but I always jumped in and found examples and tried to convince him of his worth. He goes through manic depressive mood swings and has good days/weeks followed by bad weeks/months. In those down times, nothing I say or do is really good enough and I have doubted my efforts and abilities often. Walking on eggshells conditions you to control what you can, which, is the most visible menial things.

This sounds like me too! It makes me so sad. I am sorry that you had to live through this kind of life - but I feel the comfort of where you are now.

We go through times when this doesn't happen, but his attention to me eventually fades.

Sounds like my WH!

This is horrible, yet it sounds so familiar too!

This is so wonderful to hear. I am so happy for you. I am not at the point yet where I can just give up, but I can see that there may be a time when I can be proud on my own too!

After I sent him KaylaAndy's revised plan B letter today, he texted, called and left tearful messages about me hurting him. I didn't listen or read them, but getting them was enough. I expected it, the anger, blame and the manipulation, but it hurts. It would be so easy to run back to comfort him but I need to make this stand. They are charming!

I need more space before I get there, but thank you so much for sharing with me! Your words mean so much.

Sounds so easy! (I say smiling) but I can do this!

So I'm home on my first official deeper, darker plan B night.

I finally realised this afternoon that my internet explorer was corrupt and that's why I cannot access MB forums from home. Major problem before the weekend! So, I became my own IT expert and loaded some new internet browsers and found Apple Safari and loaded that for Windows. You know what, it worked! I am pretty clever!!!

Now, I can relax and stay with you all over the weekend which is a blessing to me.

As mentioned in my post, I got many contact attempts from the WH today after my revised letter. He hates rejection and did his King Baby act well. I must stand strong and not cave in. He did try to talk to me when the he called the kids but I said it was the letter I had to write and although I was sorry it hurt him, it explains my true feelings and the conditions stand and he is not to contact me again. Then, I took a deep breath and said "here's DD" and handed over the phone. Boy was that tough.

I had a really fun time with the kids tonight after the school Christmas party with Santa and we laughed and fooled around and it was lovely.

My sister and I are taking our 4 kids to a breakfast with Santa tomorrow morning and then my other sister will take my kids to swimming so that I can avoid WH. He is going to be mad, but that's life. I will stick to it this time!!!

My family is coming for tea tomorrow night and we have another lot of swimming on Sunday. I don't think WH is coming then, but I will play it safe and careful.

I am glad I stopped crying (balling) but Plan B definitely gets it all out one way or the other. I wish he didn't catch me on the phone today, but I am so glad that I stuck to my conditions and didn't let him charm me.

Ok, back to the dishes. The one thing I hate about being without my H is that he used to clean the house, spotless, all the time. I worked, looked after the kids and cooked and did laundry. He did the rubbish, gardens, floors and always kept the place looking immaculate.

He told me after the weekend that I am not coping because the place was a mess. There was Christmas craft all over the kitchen table but it was an active project and I'm a single mum of 2 that works full time and the rest of the house was tidy and clean. I don't really care (although I do). I know I'm a good mum and there's is nothing wrong with the house. It just didn't meet his standards but he wasn't even meant to be here! So, now I just have to find a way to refocus at work!!!

I couldn't sleep tonight...mind racing while I was sleeping...LOL...thinking about brownies too! :wavingsanta:

I'm so sorry that you are pained and I feel it! Ppl kept trying to tel me how unhealthy my M was and I didn't want to listen...I wanted that "FIX"...it's a hard road, you know that, I'm not telling you anything knew...YOU ARE THE ONE THAT we/they are trying to save...YOUR personal recovery is the most important thing, as anyone's here...the M is secondary...once you have reclaimed you, you have a better chance at anything...

I ahve cried so much...balled just like you...BUT IT CERTAINLY GETS BETTER...one day at a time...sometimes I ahd to do one minute at a time...an hour at a time...YOU'LL GET THERE!!!

YOU'RE right! One person CAN NOT save a M...it takes two, who really want too, not one doing the work and one talking alot of cr@p...it's all about the follow through...


I certainly know this one...my IC told me once that it sounded like POWS was a narasscist person...and that the only thing that I did wrong was pick him, but you know what that still hurt...in my mind I was questioning how I wouldn't do that in the future...it was right after I left...THAT'S a HUGE pill to swallow...but I'm okay with that...I still ahve some fear, but fear is half to nothing at all in reality...I spent 15 years with this man...and day by day, it gets better...the kids are even happier...of course my OS has seen alot of stuff...understands so much and does NOT want us to get back together...


LOL...I had forgotten that we did this too...I would go right to his defend...but it did get to the point where the only good thing I could say about him was that he went to work everyday; however, he would so through a spell that he didn't feel like going to work...he was tired, not feeling well, whatever...and his spending habits, or selfishness would put us in a bind and "I" would have to "FIX" it to the best of my ability...

HA, I would have to check out his mood to figure out what my mood was, would warn the kids too...what a life? Then, sometimes I would be in a great mood and then he would ask me why I was in a bad mood! AND I WASN'T, but by the time I had a conversation with him, I was in a bad mood...that went on for years...always being asked: What's wrong with you? Nothing was wrong with ME...at the end, I learned to stay in my happy place and not let him affect me and this DID NOT SIT well with him...


LOL, us too...it's called the honeymoon period...some of the best books I read was on verbal abuse...they should have wrote my name in there...you may want to check out "The verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans...she also has another book called "Controlling People" that's great!


YOU are a smart, intelligent, supermom, hardworking...time manager...there are tons of qualities about you that any respectable person would want to have...I get that from reading your post...which I went back and read your first page and WOW, I had to stop...recalled all of those feelings...perhaps another reason why the brain was racing but I'm a work in progress...one thing that I have done alot of work on it staying focused on the here and now and NOT THE FUTURE!!! Super hard sometimes...

Yes, the house is a mess around here too, I say that but anyone who walked through the door would say that it's fine...it's lived in my two kids and a single working mom...you can't eat off my floors but things are neat and tidy for the most part...a little here and a little there... You are doing fabulous!



Yea RIGHT huh? I heard you loud and clear on that one...the best thing I can tell you so to avoid him like he's got an infectious disease and you can die from it...the deeper darker your plan the easier it is not to enable...

In the beginning I got a restraining order, because of the things he had done and the fear I felt...it helped greatly...plus I had convinced myself that I had to do this for the kids IF I couldn't do it for myself...then when things calmed down and he knew I was serious I removed it...but I went back...for visits, for SF, for this, for that...still followed through with the D...and today...I may have spend eight hours with him since June...everytime I talk to him or we get together for sometime with the kids, I end up talking to myself and saying this is so not acceptable...his life...POWS' life has gone downhill since I left...I'm not there carrying him...he lost the best thing that ever happen to him including the kids...

I feel for OW kind of...A started in 05...I found out April 06 and he's now living with her kind of...she doesn't really want him...so during the week, he's in the house...on the weekend (3 out of the month, when the kids are there), he's in the camper parked in front of her house! SAD...here we are 3 years later and look who's getting the scraps now while this Diva is dressing better than I have ever, living in the family home, got custody of the kids, all my bills are paid and are on time, just got a new car...kids are healthy and so am I...

God's on my side and he's on you're too!

here's a thread for you to read and contribute to.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2173377#Post2173377

Help other Plan Bers learn that they are worth the fidelity requirement! That they deserve respect! That they deserve protection!

Oh and yes - please get this lesson for yourself - because you deserve peace and sanity in your life!

Focus on the positive things within yourself - weed out those things that deplete your self confidence and self-worth. Understand this is what Plan B is for!

In the book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, it says that the number one character trait of abusers is that they have so much charm! I watched my D18 go through it a while back. She kept talking about this boy at school who was SOOOO cute! And funny! And wonderful! She finally brought him home, and I had to pick my mouth off the floor. I'm not trying to be mean, but this boy could have passed for that ugly little banjo-playing kid in Deliverance. OMG, he was ugly, lol. So I thought, 'Wow, he must have an amazing personality. Probably to make up for being so ugly.'

Well, guess what? It was just the opposite. Now, my D18 is extremely self-sufficient and has a huge sense of self-worth (from being so spoiled, lol). She tells every boy she dates that she's not having SF until she graduates high school, so if that's what they want, they can move on.

Within three weeks of dating, I heard her on the phone with him, crying and apologizing for upsetting him, asking him what she could do to make 'it' up to him, whatever it was. This went on for a good 30 minutes. She has cried only once in all her dating, and that was just out of frustration cos the guy lied to her. But here she was, all twisted up in self-hatred for not being good enough for this jerk! In 3 weeks!

But that's what that charm does. They make themselves look so amazing that you feel like the luckiest girl on earth to have them even look at you, let alone choose you. But they are always the victim, and it's an art form for them to make you feel guilty for hurting them, to make them look like they're trying so hard, that anything wrong they do can be explained away - you're just misunderstanding it, yada yada.

So when they start tightening the control, one little pinch at a time, you keep giving in and giving in and giving in, until there's no more of 'you' left. Just know that everything that comes out of their mouths is part of their 'game.' And if you walk away from them, it just makes it even more important for them to get you back, cos they have to win the game. D18's ex kept working on her for almost a year! And they only dated 3 weeks! But he couldn't give up, because then he would lose the game.

So they turn the charm back on, feed it with guilt, and there you are. Don't trust a word he says until he has hit rock bottom. This is the rest of your life - and sanity - you're fighting for.

AGH! I use to hate myself so much for giving in...I wanted to stand strong and not give up but it was always something and there I was stuck...giving in and hating myself for giving in too, then I would get angry and resentful because I was doing things that I really didn't want to do in the first place....

Talk about living in he))...

Guess what? There IS HEAVEN ON EARTH!!!!

AMEN to that one! Great thing is: IT DOES GET EASIER WITH TIME!

I love this and will remember it each time he tries to contact me directly!


Thanks Stivn4Better - I could have answered you specifically on every paragraph. You are always exactly right and I can see that we actually married very similar men.

I don't know if you read the part on my thread when I questioned getting a restraining order after my WH broke into the house last weekend. Instead of following through with my complaint to the police, he came back and enjoyed a day/night with the kids and we had SF and a lovely lazy Sunday morning as a family. It's amazing what the charm can do and I even questioned my plan B and had a lot of MB supporters walk away.

I feel ashamed that I let it happen and worse that I have lost some amazing support along the way.

I know it's part of my journey, but I wish it was easier!!!

I made myself a coffee and dropped in to the cafe this morning! Thank you!!

I am reading this book now and it surprises me that so many suffer in abusive relationships, often without even realizing it. The frog in the water on the stove comes to mind!

I've been here hundred's of times with ex-boyfriends too. Did I tell you all that the boyfriend that physically and emotionally abused me for 2 years when I was 18 is trying to become my best friend? He saw my profile on facebook go to single and now has been sending me messages of apologies and support. I haven't responded to even one. It's sick. They think they can charm their way into everything!!! But, it was 15 years ago and I am actually wiser than that now and will never see him as anything but toxic again. Maybe time/distance WILL have me looking at my H differently too!

I hope he makes it to rock bottom - sounds mean - but that's the best thing for us all!

Well, it's Sunday morning and the kids and I have had a pretty sweet one so far. DD was up too early and cried for daddy for what felt like hours. Eventually I gave in to her requests to call him and she kept asking him to come home. I don't know what his side of the conversation was and I don't want to. She's 3 and a half. I can't coach her on what to say/not to say.

Yesterday my sister came and took the kids to swimming for me. I felt so naughty dropping them off and driving out of there before WH saw me. He sent me a text 2 hours later saying he was taking the children in to the city to see the Christmas lights and maybe I could pick them up at 5pm or 6pm. I read the message because it was the first time WH has ever had both kids for more than 30 minutes on his own.

The fact that it was all kid related and not about me at all was a relief.

I replied "OK". WH thinks my sister sent it as we were together. She answered the phone when he called but it was DD saying hi.

When the time came I sent my sisters in to pick them up from him, knowing he was trying to get me to come to this gig anyway. I think he thought it would be a lovely plan. Anyway, they called him on the way in to arrange a pick up spot for 5pm. I knew that because he texted me.

"I see your point and understand your reasoning but this idea of yours is ridiculous and I don't think it will work for you."

Obviously, I didn't respond.

He was civil to my sisters so that was great. The kids had a great time and our first official out of house visitation has now occurred. I went shopping at the time but I felt very lost and alone. I crave the good old days.

My family was around for tea last night and I made a beautiful chicken, vegetable and noodle soup. It's a cold and rainy summer and a lot more like winter!! It was a relaxed evening and great. I only thought about WH a few times, but no tears yesterday

I went to bed feeling relaxed for the first time in over a week. I am so happy that I'm back in Plan B. Never thought I'd say that!! But, it's true. I feel so much more relaxed not waiting for the next message to come through and wondering if it was intended for love or hate.

It's only 10am, so I can't get too far ahead, but I think today will be good too!!

-------edited to add--------

What do you do in plan B for Christmas? Does WH still get a mention on Christmas cards and gifts? Do the kids (meaning me) buy something for daddy for Christmas or is a homemade card and photo enough or nothing? I don't know what to do.

Hey too much,
I don't mean to butt in, but I have been reading your thread and I know you are getting a lot of good support. I don't mean to rain on your parade and I know you are in a really tough spot. But just be aware that when you are in Plan B, at some point, you need to stop reading his texts, voice mails or whatever. If you really want peace from his toxic dance, you need to stop absorbing information from him in any form. I hope you get to the point where you are able to do that so you can finally get some peace and quiet from his controlling behavior.

You are doing so good, 2M2L! B is all about what you are doing! Reminding yourself of who you are and what you need outside of your marriage. When its rough, I just sort of think the my husband I loved has passed and what is available to be my "friend" is not someone I want anyway. That helps. And if I really have a hard time, I just think about him having sex with OW and then spewing fog -- I don't want that!!!
me)
"What do you do in plan B for Christmas? Does WH still get a mention on Christmas cards and gifts?"
First off, if a WS isn't on the naughty list, I don't know who would be (ax murderer, maybe?)
My DD12 has already stated, "He ruined my family, why would I want to get him a gift?" I haven't asked DS11 or DD4 -- if they want to get him a gift I'll help them (not for WH, but for my kids). Since your kids are so young, maybe just put together digital or regular photo album with handprints and other handmade things from your kids. A perfect reminder of good times and what he's missing as a dad.
I am not going to get my WH a gift, nor do I expect one from him. But as I said in an earlier post, I'm not getting anything for anyone (but they'll get cookies, so its not like I'm singling him out. I'm sure he'll get himself something!

I did the Christmas picture all on my own this year and I'm going to send out to entire Christmas list and just sign from the family. I don't want to complicate things if he de-fogs or if I want him back. I thought that took care of the issue without adding a LB and lots of questions from people I really only communicate with once a year.

BF439

You're right Lake. I was extra anxious yesterday because WH has never had the 2 kids together on his own for so long and I thought it might have been an emergency. You just never know...

Feeble excuse. I will ask my sister if she does the handover next time to ask him to contact her for handover arrangements etc. She said that they rushed through getting the kids into his car etc because it was raining and they didn't even discuss what was happening. It threw me into a mild panic (thinking he might not be planning to bring them back) and that's why I read his message.

I cannot and should not read them at all. I do need complete peace from this.

Thank you for butting in!!!

All wonderful suggestions BF. I especially laughed about WH being on the naughty list!!! I did send his brothers and his dad a handmade Christmas card from the kids with a photo that I took of the kids and WH in front of the Christmas tree. I was noticeably missing from the photo, and although I didn't want to punish anyone, it sent a clear message. Turns out he is staying with his dad so seeing that on the mantle would definitely remind him of a family lost.

I'll start with the kids on his Christmas box and do a lovely little collection of hand made pressies. He told me the ring for my birthday was birthday and Christmas combined so I do not expect anything else. I had ordered a picture from the US about 3 months ago when R looked promising. It hasn't arrived yet, but if it does, i plan to still give it to him from the family. It is the same print that he fell in love with at our MC's office. Ironically! You can get digital photo key chains too where you can load pictures onto an SD card and they do a slide show of your pictures. I could put heaps of pictures of the kids and slip in one family picture too. Maybe.

It's a good point about not complicating things. My mum asked if she should put him on her Christmas newsletter to the family and I said yes for the same reasons.

I glossed over it but it was such a hard decision to not pick up the kids from WH myself yesterday. The urge to rush home and doll up and race back in there to pick them up and bump into his band was HUGE.

I feel a little lost today. The house is a mess and we have swimming again this afternoon. I just feel really disconnected from my life (this minute) and want a small holiday where I can stay in bed and have a real husband be here to make me feel loved and adored and look after the cooking, cleaning and the kids for just a day.

----------edited to add-------

That, and I just found the draw of back up cds with our photos and everything has been cleaned out. That must have been one of the boxes he took with him last weekend. There were heaps of software disks and his music cds too, so I guess it was easier to take the lot in his rush to pack and leave!

DD keeps telling DS that WH is at work but he is coming home really soon. Apparently that's what he told her this morning on the phone!

WH just called in tears. I gave the phone to DD but she quickly passed it back to me and said it was urgent. A guy that works with WH just died. He went to the hospital to see him today and the staff told him he was put into an induced coma but his body shut down and he's dead. He was only 46, suffered from depression for years and had a real connection with WH. I offered limited support to WH and told him to call mutual friend as I didn't know the guy. I didn't know what to do. Plan B means meeting no emotional needs so I shut it down but I didn't want to come off cold hearted either. He is working with the band tonight so it will be awful for them all.

I started the conversation with you need to call IM and I will not speak with you directly...then I heard the crying...

Any ideas???

Be kind but consistent - you are no longer his partner. Suggest he calls his mom or dad or sibling for support. That is not your job as long as he's not willing to go NC. NUFF SAID.

WEll said Cat! I've been having trouble getting to MB this weekend!

I need to update my thread with recent infor...basic POWS has lost his job, he called me Friday nite and I listened to him, we actually talked for about an hour, but I'm farther along than you are 2M2L...but basically I did the same thing...

POWS told me if I wanted to I could call him back later, well, NO! I told him that he needed the support of his friend that he was going visit...I can't pick up the piece for him anymore...and he still thinks that I will...

You did well...With a person like this you have to stay distance or you get sucked in!

Yesterday morning, I woke up and had a txt from him, I ignored and haven't talked to him since....I have to take care of me and the boys, that's what I NEED TO DO!!

Hello 2M2L, I just dropped in to see how you are doing. I was about to say the same thing as a previous poster. I think you need to cut out all messages from him whether text, voice or whatever. And don't support him through this loss. It's tough on him but he hasn't exactly been supportive of you during the tough times you've been going through. You are not being heartless, you are being strong and purposeful. This is for the greater good. Do you have call identification? If so you need to not pick up on his calls and delete any voice message without listening to it.
Easier said than done but it gets easier over time.
Big hugs. Hold tight.