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let me put this another way. Your H is on his 3rd affair because you did not recover from the last 2. This will go and on and on unless you take steps to do something effective to stop this. The way to stop this is to set conditions which MAKE THAT POSSIBLE. Here is what it will take: Requirements for RecoveryThe plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide. I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail. The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy. This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted. An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them. After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bcas your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance. Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place. Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I guess that's why we had the false recovery. It was ok whilst they were not seeing each other but after the shared gig when I was waiting for him at home, it all got worse. More late nights, more secret coffees etc.
I get it. The addiction was still there and it is still there now and he's trying to find a way to have us both in his life. Boy is he sneaky!
NC for life is essential. He left me for the OW and to get me back he must leave her. Choose WH!
He is definately not at a point where he would consider my conditions based on your post. I think he would try and dictate the terms and still deny that it was an affair. He's not sorry enough yet, he's not broken.
Last edited by 2much2lose; 12/04/08 11:29 PM.
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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Hmmmm - I know what you mean.
But, if it's not her then why not the next girl?
What actions can I take to prevent it from happening again?
It's not my preferred choice at all. I would love the NC option, but I know he'll latch on to another one if deeper things with him/us don't change. Simply, you both will need to work on affair proofing your marriage. He IS a serial cheater. He probably will never change. Boundaries and affair proofing of your marriage have to be in place. Sounds to me like you don't believe he can change either. In the past he told me he needed to change, but doesn't know if he can or how long it will take. I don't even know if his feeble attempt to reconcile entails him coming home yet. Part of me thinks he still wants to be separated and just try to work it out at Christmas.
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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I guess that's why we had the false recovery. It was ok whilst they were not seeing each other but after the shared gig when I was waiting for him at home, it all got worse. More late nights, more secret coffees etc.
I get it. The addiction was still there and it is still there now and he's trying to find a way to have us both in his life. Boy is he sneaky!
NC for life is essential. He left me for the OW and to get me back he must leave her. Choose WH!
He is definately not at a point where he would consider my conditions based on your post. I think he would try and dictate the terms and still deny that it was an affair. He's not sorry enough yet, he's not broken. He is still trying to get YOU to make the change so he does not have to, 2Much. Do you see that? He has 2 women meeting his needs and he wants to keep it that way. And I believe you are right! He is not ready. He is not at the point where he believes he has to change. He is still trying to get you BACK without having to change anything himself. But what you are facing is a death of a thousand cuts, 2Much, unless you hold out, hold out, hold out. If you do this in a way that makes recovery impossible you will grow to hate him. And once that happens, it is very hard to turn it around again. But what scares me the most is the threat to your mental health. As he is now, he is a danger to your mental health. You are on affair #3 after a false recovery. That is very grave and very dangerous, 2Much. If you take him back it much on terms that ensure recovery. His terms ASSURE NO RECOVERY. That is why a wayward does not ever get to set the conditions of his surrender. NEVER..
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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In the past he told me he needed to change, but doesn't know if he can or how long it will take. I don't even know if his feeble attempt to reconcile entails him coming home yet. Part of me thinks he still wants to be separated and just try to work it out at Christmas. He wants you to ease his pain in Plan B. Plan B is working and he doesn't like it. hey, did you send a copy of your Plan B letter with a note to the OW? That is very effective! It will make her squirm!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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He also isn't relishing spending Christmas without his children. Be VERY CAREFUL of any moves towards reconcilliation he makes right now.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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In the past he told me he needed to change, but doesn't know if he can or how long it will take. Yes he can change. He has to do this: 1. end contact with the ho 2. change the conditions that led to the affair 3. create complete transparency in his life That will take about 2 minutes to do all that. He can do that. Part of me thinks he still wants to be separated and just try to work it out at Christmas. Of course! he wants you to cut your conditions so he doesn't have do it and end up missing Christmas! If he wants to have Cmas with his family HE KNOWS WHAT TO DO! HE JUST DOESN'T WANT TO DO IT!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I'm so glad I have you guys. When my IM called I was away from my computer and it always feels bad! I don't want to slip up after all my/our hard work. However, I don't jump when he calls now. I don't react. I just breathe and remain still. He doesn't need an answer from me this minute. Its actually better if he has to wait for my response so he hopefully has a chance to find the missing pieces before I point them out. I know that he's not at rock bottem yet but we do have a chance of recovery if I listen to all of you. I am going to stay with plan B. I am surprised at the effect it has had already and am hopeful for the changes that we need. He needs to meet my PBL conditions. I will not accept anything less. Thank you for being here for me 
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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In the past he told me he needed to change, but doesn't know if he can or how long it will take. I don't even know if his feeble attempt to reconcile entails him coming home yet. Part of me thinks he still wants to be separated and just try to work it out at Christmas. He wants you to ease his pain in Plan B. Plan B is working and he doesn't like it. hey, did you send a copy of your Plan B letter with a note to the OW? That is very effective! It will make her squirm! hehehe - I am putting it in the post now. That way they will definately get it!
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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2Much, you will be just fine, but you need to get away from him. He is harrassing you every day. Do you realize this? You need a BREAK.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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2Much, you will be just fine, but you need to get away from him. He is harrassing you every day. Do you realize this? You need a BREAK. ITA with Mel. Can you and the kids get away for a few days? Maybe even to visit your IM? That will drive him totally nutz!
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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Hehe - IM keeps asking us to come for a visit. It would drive him completely nuts!!!
I might stay the night at my sisters tomorrow and have a mini break away.
What should I write to the OW with the letter?
I have printed the photos that she had sent to his phone just in case her parents don't believe me and think I'm harrassing her.
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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add this note: from Surviving an Affair pg 81
I love WS with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make him happy. I will wait for him to give me that chance.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Fabulous! It's in there now and going in the post.
Her parents are going to be weirded out by their little angel. Good! Innocent my foot!!!
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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Like Tully's h your h has the a entangled in his job. To fully comply with the PB requirements he has to seriously inconvenience himself professionally and financially.
It is also very embarrassing for him to involve and inconvenience others who are working with him.He will now begin to see the domino effect that an a sets in train and will have to make sacrifices and deal with the very unpleasant consequences of his actions.
Like all WH'S He wants to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it never happened with the least amount of pain to himself.That does not create a solid platform to rebuild a m IT IS THE EASY WAY OUT only THE HARD WAY WILL WORK.
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2Much, you will be just fine, but you need to get away from him. He is harrassing you every day. Do you realize this? You need a BREAK. I was thinking the same thing. If I were you, I'd ask IM to only contact you once a day with his crapola, at the most! Preferably only once every 3 or 4 days. For your sake, you need to start living a life that doesn't involve twisting your gut every 5 hours. In other words, tell her that if it isn't life threatening or something that has to be taken care of immediately (like a bank or legal issue), please save it up and give it to you every 3 days.
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Sorry everyone, plan B completely is broken.
We went to the carols and my IM called really worried. WH was crying so much about me keeping the kids from him. He had rung to speak with them but they were asleep in the caar. My sister told him that and he was mad and thought we were keeping them from him.
We were going to carols. When we got there DS spoke with him but DD was feeling sick and didn't want to. Not my fault.
He kept calling so I switched my phone off after 21 missed calls. That's when IM contacted me the first time.
Anyway, she was super worried about him, he wouldn't answer his phone. and I said I would not contact him, it just credits his bad behaviour etc.
She calls back, WH told her he's in the house, I should have got a better locksmith. Alarm was going off but he was going to wait for the kids and take them for the night. Through IM, I told him to leave the house and pick up kids from my parents.
After much debate he agreed. DD had vomitted twice in the car and DS had a high temperature. Neither was fit to travel over 1 hour in car to his brother's house. He went to mum and dads to get kids, I came home to pack them a bag.
IM was passing message to me about him wanting to work on marriage and it seems she suggested to him that transparency in the band with OW should make me happy so I'm just overreacting etc. I don't know if that is true or not.
Dad calls me, WH is angry, only has one car seat, so, I go around there to talk with him. He is upset but is a dad really missing his kids. I explain that they are sick and need to be home. He listens to me.
I bring them home and he follows to put them to bed. It was after 10pm and they were both sick. They needed beds at home so I got what I needed.
I realise he took all of the files from the filing cabinet. He wants to calculate how much he's put into the mortgage amoungst other things. He wanted to chat to me. Thinks I've been unfair, keeping the kids from him, not accepting his proposal etc.
I stuck to my guns, but with a failed plan b now I don't know what to do. He went home but said he'd meet us at swimming today. I asked him to come later but it's not going to happen.
So, here's my proposal. My WH is not the same as the typical WH and does respect my wishes here and assumes that I am just being vindictive etc and has my new house key etc.
He has not had a PA, but has started to see the affect on me and is willing to make changes. He is willing to try his version and if I am not happy, give up the band entirely. He has spoken with OW and her parents and they all agree there should be no friendship. I still think he will push me on this and it won't work unless there are some pretty strong conditions in place.
I have told him I will only promise to consider it. I want it in writing so that I can have a clear head, and a copy to post on here for you guys.
This sucks. I went to bed in tears. I just wanted peace and really thought he would respect my request for space. He even suggested having a sleepover with the kids tonight. I know this is not how it should work. Plan A was the time for this response, not plan B.
I don't want to take out an intervention order on him. I really want to receive his letter and consider it with an open heart and mind. If he doesn't write the letter, that's an indication of his committment.
Kids are having breakfast and I need to clean the house and get busy.
I'll keep you all posted. Has this happened before?
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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I have told him I will only promise to consider it. I want it in writing so that I can have a clear head, and a copy to post on here for you guys. Your wayward spouse is now in complete control of you and you are right back where you started. I don't even know what to say to you if you believe that your marriage can work under the conditions of a WS who intends on staying in touch with his affair partner. You are suggesting allowing a wayward to set the conditions of his return, which includes continued contact with his OW. That won't work. It is impossible. But it is your life and your marriage, 2Much. If you want to live with an ongoing affair, that is your choice.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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2Much, I am so sorry this has been so hard on you, but a major problem is that your IM is passing on bullcrap and has made absolutely untenable agreements on your behalf. NEVER can a marriage recover if there is contact. If you know how to do that, please tell Dr Harley, a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience, because he will tell you: RECOVERY IS IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS CONTACT ENDS. Period. even if jobs have to be quit. Even if you have to move to another state. If contact doesn't end, there won't be recovery.
So, if you don't want to recover, you can accept the terms of your WAYWARD SPOUSES dictates for his return. but, I assure you, that you are facing more of the same.
your H is very manipulative and very persistent, but many are. If you want to go back into Plan B and start over here, let me know and I will help you. This is not a lost cause, but it will be if your H comes back on his own terms.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I know ML. I just really feel like I have failed. He doesn't respect my boundaries or my feelings at all.
I don't know what to do to show him it's not going to work. He just seems intent to show me who's boss. His mother called my parents to pressure them again yesterday too.
I didn't ask for much.
Her parents and OW will get the letter and photos on Monday I think. I guess that's the only other hope I have, that they comply from that end and help end it.
I feel defeated.
----edited to add-----
He thinks I am being extremely unreasonable. Not sex, not affair therefore no reason to not see her. She's a lovely girl and she doesn't deserve to be hurt or lose her job. He's put a lot of work into her career for no reason and wants to see her do well.He's meeting me halfway by giving me transparency and will pull out of a gig/rehearsal if I cannot be there.
I think it was ruined when my IM suggested this was a good idea to him. He thinks she is on his side and I am losing it and have got serious mental issues and he never thought I could be this cruel etc.
Last edited by 2much2lose; 12/05/08 07:22 PM.
BS 32 (1st marriage), WH 38 (2nd marriage), DD 3, DS 1
Married Aug 2002, EA/PA 2005, NC mid 2005
EA Jun 2008, Plan A, 1 Aug 2008, WH moved out 14 Sep 08, D-Day 14 Sep 08, Moved home 2 Nov 08, moved out 30 Nov 08
Plan B, 2 Dec 08, broken 5, 11, 15 & 17 Dec 08
Current Status: Contact for visitation, children and finances.
Embarking on a new plan to Let go and Let God and to not settle for less than I deserve!
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