Thank you for posting Miss M. With all due respect I have been reaching out for months and I know that I am weak and have a razor tounge when I feel threatened. I want to save my marriage, that's why I am here, usually more than once a day, desperately seeking advice.

Regretfully, I rarely think first. I don't know why, I just ramble on because it feels like my right to make him pay for my hurt. I want to stop, I just wish he would stop blaming me for everything.

She drives me crazy and the way he follows her around like a puppy and puts her on a pedestal makes my heart bleed. I have been through this with him and OW1 before and never exposed or confronted her. I guess OW2 is getting both serves.

I made the decision to honestly report my worst behaviour so that I could get honest advice. It is humilating and humbling to say the least, and I welcome your 2x4's.

I have taken your advice and emailed the Harley's. I don't know if it is affordable to do the counselling from Australia, but I have sent the request so I'll weigh it up fully as soon as I hear back. I want to save my marriage. Money is just money.

I noted your sig said recovered. Thank you for sharing with me and for your help. I really appreciate your effort and hope I can change my destructive behaviour before it's too late.

If you have any advice on what I can do differently, please let me know.

From your post and others, I believe I should listen to WH but not react.

I should not yell, scream or get mad.

I should breathe, then respond only when calm.

I should learn his ENs and meet them.

I should set my boundaries and stick to them, quietly and calmly.

I shouldn't ever mention the OW and especially not with disrespect.

I should not respond to his crap.

Is there anything else?

This comment really hurts because I can't blame anyone but me for my actions and I don't want a divorce.

You're right about it all WOF. I will take the ex off my facebook. It was stupid of me to say the least. I do want the past left in the past.

I hope that WH will find the desire to be here and commit to me and our family. I hope I can find the right balance between setting boundaries and not pushing him away.

About the cars, my WH has made about $50,000 over the past 8 years by finding the right deals. It has been a hobby which has really paid off. He trades BMW's because there is more margin for profit.

We did have another win. He called and said they will take a deposit of $1,000 so we can leave the money in the home loan. He will still get a car from them until our car is ready in early Jan 09.

Sounds like a win win to me. Money is untouched and safe in the account

Yes, all true. I need to start to control my actions and reactions a whole lot better and I am doing a bad job.

I have been hiding things from my parents. They believe that him being home is a marriage saved. I have tried to tell them but they look at me like I am making it up and causing problems. Sometimes I think they believe that I should just put up with his behaviour and be happy that he's home.

I am tired. I am hoping I can get a little rule book of do's and don'ts so that I can start to regain control of myself. I was doing better when he was not here last time. This is getting really hard.

Gotta go pick up DS. DD and I have been watching movies. Don't know when WH is getting home but I plan to be relaxed and calm and not react.

SF? I smiled when you wrote that. I am bad at saying no but don't think it will happen. He still wants to punish me I think and pretend he is leaving.

I will not beg.

I haven't put my rings back on. Is that bad? Is that a LB???

Have you picked up "The Four Agreements" yet? Reading there will be a good way to bring back that deep and abiding truth that you learned so recently at the Landmark Forum.

The truth of the matter is that your husband has a nightmare going, and by allowing him to pull you in and take the nastiness he dishes out personally, you make it yours.

What's wrong with quietly hanging up the minute he starts cycling into his negative picture of you. After all, it's HIS picture - not yours. HE DOES NOT DEFINE YOU! Unless you buy into it and engage with it.

Remember the plexiglass wall you can put between the two of you at any time? He throws crap at you and guess who has to clean it up, because you don't let his nastiness touch you. You stay nice and clean on your side of the glass.

Your husband is likely bipolar. and because he's dealing with some kind of mental illness that has him in this place, you cannot marriage build with him. Not until the illness is dealt with. But if you engage with him, you legitimize his behavior and normalize it. Stop it.

Be still within your heart - that means stop REacting and start ACTing. Choosing instead of having your choices made for you by a nutcase!

You get one choice today - how you will behave regardless of how he behaves.

edit to add: YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM. You choose this drama day in and day out. There is no such thing as a victim. He's not a victim. He's gone through Landmark so he intellectually knows this but he hasn't chosen it yet. As long as you will engage with him when he goes into his victim cycle you validate that being a victim works for him. STOP BUYING INTO HIS VICTIM CRAP! You make him less than he could be when you let him engage in bullying.

I would strongly suggest that the money stay in your account, until he can string a few days together where there is no nastiness directed at you. Plan B would be a really good thing for the two of you right now, because he couldn't unload on you when he's feeling pain and disgust with himself. Let him unload on OW - and remove any illusions she might have that he's anything but a b* to live with.

I don't know if you are a Star Trek fan - I really got into Next Generation. There's an episode where Troy - the Empath is working with a diplomat - he comes on board with a very old woman he refers to as his mother. She dies shortly after coming on board and he "bonds" with Troy. Troy begins aging and showing signs of personality changes - raging, extreme jealousy. Turns out he's formed a link with her where she becomes a receptical for all of his negative emotions and thoughts, literally. Breaking the link means he has to feel his own emotions and thoughts and he is such a vile person that he dies within moments!

I offer you this visual to keep in mind what you are doing when you allow your husband to say all this nastiness to you - you are becoming HIS receptical - his trash bin - where he can unload all the negativity he feels and he doesn't have to feel it. HE NEEDS TO FEEL IT. He needs to NOT BE ABLE TO TRANSFER THAT TRASH - if you have any hope of being with this guy one year or ten years from now (if you haven't woken up that you deserve a kinder life), he has to mature enough to take it on himself!

2much,

I am sorry if I hurt your feelings, it's just that I see you doing what I did for so many years.

Truly, from my heart, I am telling you that you have to change before the dynamics of you marriage will change.

I didn't have MB when my H had his A.

But I did have God. And He spanked me hard. I can tell you that I always felt 'justified' in reacting the way I did to my husband's misbehavior. The Lord gave me Plan A and Plan B before I ever came to this site.

In the end, it did not matter what my H did, it was how I reacted and the terrible things I said that did matter.

I had to learn to step back and not react. I was totally humbled. I don't know if you are a Christian or not, but if you are, I suggest that you read the whole book of Proverbs and see if you see yourself in parts of it.

One suggestion that I have is that whenever your WS provokes you that you step back, and think to yourself, 'what is the healthiest way for me to respond to this? What is healthiest for me, my marriage and my family?' And I mean ANYTIME before you open your mouth to speak.

You have years of reacting in an unhealthy way. It doesn't mean that you are a bad person, it just means that you are reacting instead of acting in a healthy manner that is proactive for your marriage and family.

It takes time to change your REACTIONS. I say don't react anymore. Keep practicing. Let no evil come from your mouth. And when you feel bad about yourself, think: Stop the bad, I am WORTHY.

And you ARE worthy. You just have to start thinking before you open your mouth. Don't buy into the bad things that your H says about you. You may feel justified for being a b!tch to your WS, but that doesn't make it RIGHT. You keep feeding into your WS's madness, and then HE feels justified to keep treating you this way.

A healthy way to respond when your WS says terrible things is just to calmly say 'I am sorry you feel that way.' That's it. No more, and if you can't contain yourself, WALK AWAY.

Your H may certainly have some mental issues himself, but you are feeding into them and it needs to stop.

Please read Proverbs, it will help to teach you how you should behave and live your life.

I am telling you that I was broken, and I have changed, permanently. It is not okay to react the way you have been, it is NOT saving your M.

Start working on this. If you get too upset and feel you will LB, just walk away, quietly hang up the phone, gently say you will not tolerate being spoken to in that manner, and get away from it, especially if you feel you can't control your mouth.

You can't change your spouse, you can only change yourself.

You can't be happy with yourself when your treat your H this way. I am not saying he is okay, he is NOT, but you have to change yourself 2much.

Work on you, work on being that wonderful woman that you really are under all this angst. Change yourself. You CAN help yourself, you CAN stop reacting.

It's a lot of hard work, and it doesn't happen overnite, but I have faith in you, you can do it!!!

Blessings and prayers for your family,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

You have received some great posts, this one in particular is golden:

Also, one of the posts suggests that when he says something mean you should only respond with "I am sorry you feel that way" and then be quiet. That is GREAT advice. because when your WH is talking complete nonsense, it will not do you a bit of good to try to engage him in a conversation. When he calls you names, or tells you that everything is all your fault, you know that is not right. So don't even get into that dialogue with him. I think one of the mistakes we all make, is that we figure there must be something we can say that will make our spouse change.If we could just come up with the perfect, loving, caring, words of wisdom, and speak them out, it would suddenly melt his heart and change him into the H we thought he was years ago. But that just isn't going to happen. Because no matter what you say - he is got something to come back with. And if he feels like he is losing the arguement, he will resort to hurtfull words. So don't go there with him. Simply say "I am sorry you feel that way" and move on. When you no longer receive his harshness, he will quit sending it your way.

Every post here contains true gems for you to soak in. Receive the words the Lord is trying to give you.

Stop. Breathe. Be still. When you have doubts - don't do anything. Resist your impulse to act right away.

Thank you KA, Miss M and WOF.

I am at work and love starting my day with your words of wisdom and kindness. It is the best gift in the world to be blessed with people who are genuine and giving to me, a stranger to you all a few months ago.

I was refreshed and aware last night thank you to the frankness of your messages yesterday. I was able to go a whole night and morning without LB or DJ!

We picked him up from the station. DD and WH are still sick. I got his tea, made him a hot drink and put the kids to bed, and ran him a bath.

He had rebuilt his computer so why he was in the bath I reinstalled e-blaster, which I hate, but I know it's a necessary evil. Knowledge is power.

Then, it was about 9.15pm, he jumped out of the bath and I went to the shops for supplies. Came back at 10pm, he was uploading cars for sale.

Chatted quietly and watched Top Gear UK and made us a snack and cup of tea.

I put everything away and said I was heading off to bed. He looked at me kind of strangely, I think he expected something to come up and I went to bed.

DS woke up at 5:30am. I resettled him and grabbed WH's mobile from the lounge.

He'd called OW once yesterday morning, and she'd called him early afternoon.

He had sent OW one message at 11pm "I'll never be away from you. You know better. I just need out of here. Acid will be there so unfortunately not. Sweet dreams babe."

I don't know what the story is. I guess I am Acid - lovely new term of endearment. He has told her before that he is interstate to have space from everything so it could be that. It could be us meeting this morning to discuss the new car at BMW ($1,000 deposit only). It could be something entirely different.

I wanted to react so badly. But I didn't. I put the phone back and DD woke up and went to lie with WH in longe. WH asked me to lie with them. I spooned him and scratched his back which he loves for about 5 mins. Got up, showered, dressed got everyone out and he drove me to work. No bid discussions, just light and happy.

He dropped me off and will pick me up in 2 hours for the BMW meeting.

I did ask him this morning if he was still leaving today. He said he doesn't know what to do. Tucked DD in last night and she told him she loved him and he's finding it really hard to leave the kids. I said the kids would really hurt.

I asked him if he had cancelled MC today - which is what he vowed to do on Monday night. He said no. He didn't know what to do about that yet either. Was very confused that I had taken my rings off and asked him to leave. I said I thought he wanted me to stop fighting for the marriage and I didn't want to flog a dead horse. Probably a LB now that I look at it. I said I didn't want him to leave, I want to work on M. At the very least I would ask for respect and no conflict.

That was before showers etc.

So, how did I go?

I will take all of your comments on board. They are wonderful. I especially love having a response to his nastiness - I am sorry you feel that way. I'm going to tattoo that on my eyelids.

Muuuuuaaaaahhhhhh!

--------------edited-------------

One LB.

When talking about the rings, I thought he had chosen his friendship over his M and he told me that he stayed with me last night instead of being with her as she'd asked. I didn't say anything else.

I guess I forgot to tell you...NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. Just leave it be. Actions actions actions 2much. I put in bold what is a no no.

About the e blaster. That's fine. About the message to OW. That's okay. Step back. You did good. Just be wise as a snake and as innocent as a dove. You MUST keep your mouth shut and not let on you know anything. I used all info to make my plan better. My H never knew until later. I know it hurts. But do NOT lash out. No more LB's. Use the info that you get for your PLAN A. If your name is acid, then start changing till your name is 'sweet'.

You have to start a good plan A to meet his needs, then, when and if you go to plan B he won't be getting any of the new, sweet 2much, and OW will have to fill those needs, which she can't cause it's all a fantasy anyway. She doesn't have to wash his socks, now does she?

And please, get your ducks lined up financially. Very important during Plan A.

You are doing better, keep it up. I'll keep the :crosseyedcrazy: :twobyfour: coming until you get it hon. This is a process.

When in doubt. Say nothing. And if want to stay married, put the rings back on. Your actions are saying the opposite of what you want, which is to save the marriage. If he says something, just
say you don't do divorce. That's it.

Please tell me you will read the WHOLE book of Proverbs, pleasepleaseplease.

I will not begin to assume that your H is bi-polar. That is up to a professional. I wonder tho, what your MC thinks.


You really have a lot of awesome help here from these wonderful people. Listen up girl.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I think this was good! I wouldn't suggest saying this sort of thing all the time, but darn it anyway, this is true. If he is going to keep telling you that he hates you, and the M is over, then why would he be surprised that you want him to move out?

I wanted to let you know I will be away from the comptuer for a few days. I am taking tomorrow off from work, and then the next couple of days are Thanksgiving Holiday here.
I will be back at work, and on the computer, Monday

Miss M is giving you great advice. Please listen to her.

Remember to be still. Do not feel like you need to act quickly on ANYTHING. Keep reading. Keep posting.

Find nice things to do for yourself. Pedicures, bubble baths, favorite tea.

will be thinking of you

That's the bad thing about MC - all relationship talk Today we both rehashed horrible hurtful things and I confessed to being bulemic again (over past 3 months) and asked him to leave. Said I didn't have the energy to fight for the M anymore. Complimented him on efforts to be responsbile and help with kids etc.

We are not continuing MC. It looks like he will move out. But, saving grace is that MC suggested IC for him/us and I said I have my own arrangements and that left it open for him to take it up. The psychologist is the wife of our MC and will be good for him. If I had taken up the offer WH would probably not have done it too.

I got the prices for Steve Harley but it will be very expensive calling from Melbourne too. I need to decide if I need a IC instead of MB, maybe I can't do this at the moment anyway. I feel like I have really tried but it's gone on too long and I am really struggling with everything.

MC said we may recover our M at some stage, this is not the end, but he really cannot see the situation improving if we do not put the work in and continue with hurt and anger etc. He wants us both to work on ourselves first. Then see where it takes us.

We were both deflated when we left. WH asked me about being bulemic and asked why I didn't mention it. Told him I had tried but he was too busy not listening to notice.

I brought up the living situation and asked where he would go (wish I read about not bringing it up) and he told me that I wanted him to leave etc but he would be responsible and help with kids and make a plan. Told him I want a time frame that he will be gone so that I could make arrangements for leasing house etc. Wow, I said so many wrong things. Asked him if he needed 2, 3 or 6 months etc and what kind of lease he would sign etc. He said he hadn't thought about any of that but I still pushed him. Looks like he was planning to fence sit for a lot longer.

He told me he has been scarred by two images of me. One when he hit me and the other when I thought he was going to hit me again. He said he hates those images and what he did to me and is thankful that those images are there because he never wants to put me through that again.

He also said he sees that all his relationships turn out the same way because he is the same in them. He wants time to work on himself so he can be a better man, then husband etc. Wants me to understand that he cannot be married until he is right, if ever.

-----edited to add------
He said he was never "fixed" but when he met me everything was so wonderful that he thought his previous relationships were the problem, and stopped all IC. He knows he was wrong, but I brought my own baggage too and he never knew about my past relationships or bulemia from years ago until very recently and now sees that I was damaged goods too.
-----------------------

I am crushed about him leaving and have been crying for 2 hours. I don't want him to leave. I'm being stupid again, yes?

I need to believe I will be ok, better, and maybe now is the time for plan B afterall?

Help!


I am so hurt about being called ACID. It really cuts deeply.

Also, if he moves out now I have no chance to fix my plan A and I am distraught by this. It makes me so sad...

I tried silence today but he kept pushing me. I told him I had nothing to say and stayed cool. I think he hates me for it anyway. I also told him I don't believe in divorce so I hope he understands.

I put my rings back on and I can't stop crying.

I will!

Thanks WOF, I certainly get lonley without you!

Happy Thanksgiving. I hope you have a wonderful time with your family. I'll "see" you next week.

I always react to everything so I am going to take on board to not act quickly on anything.

Thank you.

(Still crying)

I've FINALLY stopped crying. I've got 5 minutes to spruce up and grab the kids from school. Don't know when WH will be home, I gave him a lot of homework to do for moving out pronto. Stupid, yes, but ok?

One question, is it better for him to be out of the house?

Is this a good time for plan B?

I'll need to revisit the plan B letters and get one ready.

If I do a plan B letter when he's already leaving, is that manipulation?

So I sent him a message saying I'm sorry for pushing him. I keep on trying to control and I will leave it alone ok.

He wrote back, "I guess I have to ask. Do you want me to leave tonight after rehearsal or later in the week as in Sat or Sun? Sorry and thank you for your message".

I will tell him when he calls that we're making big decisions and it doesn't have to be tonight. I don't want to push him in to making the wrong one.

From email snooping, he doesn't have a rehearsal tonight. He is most probably meeting OW. Should I call him on this or leave it go?

I will go quiet on all R talk and not push about moving. If he brings it up I will tell him it is his decision to leave and he has to own it?

This is confusing and hard.

I would love him to stay if we could both plan A!

Tips and advice will be greatly appreciated...

I'll believe it when it happens.

You are talking to him and believing what he says. On past performance the next thing will be that he will ,having got a nice little power shot of really upsetting you,when you see him again have changed the subject and no mention made of leaving.

He is playing games and has no intention of going. He is having too much fun. Don,t listen to him he knows exactly when you are tired and emotional and he times his hurtful comments to extract the maximum effect.

He has much too much to lose.

Hi Myopia, you're fantastic and I am sure, regretfully, right on the money.

He just called. I acted aloof about rehearsals and said I thought it was next week. He mumbled about it being tonight and said nothing next week. I could be wrong, they may have changed it...

I told him I'd spoken to his mum. She had sent the kids some letters and I said she asked how it was going and I mentioned he might leave. He was put out and thought his mum would be really pissed off. I said it would be done with consideration.

Anyway, he did not mention leaving, still wont.

I think you're right.

Looks like I will be stepping over the suitcase for a bit longer afterall.

Any tips on what to do now?

I have read posts by topics by Tully and Braeworth and I am trying to get strength for a plan B. It really seems like the only way to stop the fence sitting and force WH to be with himself and whichever "friends" he chooses.

Our kids are 1 and a half and 3 and a half. He may not have appropriate accommodation for visits.

How do I facilitate this without giving him the benefit of home but not putting the kids out either?

His family lives over an hour away and my family is 5 minutes away. To I drop the kids off with my parents and he goes there? Does it all have to be centred around McDonald's or kid friendly places? I would have to leave here if he visited them at home, but wont that soften the effect too?

I am still confused about what to do. If he gets IC then maybe he will be better placed to handle plan B.

My birthday is the 11th December so I want to go into plan B before then. I don't want to have anymore of my days/plans muddled with confusion and uncertainty.

His brother is a quadraplegic and will be in bed for another 5 weeks so Christmas day will be over there. Should I have the kids Christmas Eve with my family, tradition with Church then presents and then let him pick the kids up Christmas morning to spend the day with him and his family without me? He could get them in the city after church.

I'm trying to get stronger. My wayward plan A has me exhausted and very confused. My inaction with plan B has really made a mess of this.

He sent me a message telling me he was remembering the letters we wrote each other in Singapore a couple of months before we married. He's letting me know he's thinking about the good times, but then not doing anything. Well, nothing to R.

I fear going on like this will see us divorcing in August after the 12 months separation.

I'm tired. The house is a mess but plan A means I've got to do that first. Hope it wont take long. I wish he would pull his weight here too if he chooses to stay.

Sigh. I'm lost.

He needs to move out, NOW.

Every day you tolerate "Acid" or some other outburst from him keeps you from recovering yourself. You are wearing down and will tolerate almost anything to keep the status quo - "hope" that he will stop... He won't. Not while he's with you and can abuse you. He needs to not have access so he will start abusing HER.

See - he's still not ready to work on fixing himself - because he believes that since everything with OW is like it was in the beginning with you, that it's still just previous relationships.

And you are starting to cycle as fast as he is - look at how quickly you go from knowing he needs to get out now to thinking about waiting for a week.

The status quo needs to be broken. NOW.

Your own mental health depends on this.

KaylaAndy,

The 'Acid' was a comment she read from a TM he wrote to OW. He did not call her that to her face.

But I agree with you that he needs to move out now.

2much,

You have a lot of work to do on yourself. I am so sorry to hear that you are bulemic. This is very serious indeed, and shows that you have a very poor self image. Start looking for a good counselor, don't pick just anyone.

I was concerned when you said "if we could both do plan A". Your husband is not going to do plan A. Plan A is for you, it is to show him the changes you are making, and at the same time expose, so the A is no longer in the dark fantasy world.

However, I am thinking that your situation is beyond the normal MB help of this board, as we are not professionals, after all. That being said, don't stop posting, we will help you as much as we can.

I think if you had have had counseling with MB before now it really would have helped. And even tho it's expensive from Australia, it would still be worth one session. I would like to see you do this, as this situation is very complicated and you really need professional help beyond this board. At least spend the money one time. It will be worth it, I promise you.

I would keep up plan A for the moment, as your plan was NOT working. Please continue to step back and not react to your WS verbal abuse. At least it will keep things from escalating. You don't want to engage verbally with this man, it does you no good at all.

At least when your WS does move out he will have better memories of you than what you have been doing before now.

Your WS has serious issues, that he is actually realizing, and he needs counseling to help him realize that and to change.

As I said before, you cannot change your H, you can only change yourself. You need to make those changes in yourself, so that you can have a better life for you and your children.

Please get your finances together to protect yourself and your very young children.

I am concerned that your plan B will not be for the usual reasons. Have you read any of the books suggested here, or read any materials from this site?

I am wondering, because you haven't been following the same path as others here.

Does anyone have an opinion about 2much going into plan B?

Keep posting 2much!

God Bless,

Love in Christ,
Miss M

I'm not sleeping tonight, can't, tried, just worried I think.

He got home at midnight, a lot earlier than usual. I didn't ask anything about the rehearsal as I am sure he would be lying.

He was putting the baby seats in for me and I said something and he snapped that he couldn't hear me. I just left the garage and got into bed. He came in later, held my hand and apologised. This is not his standard behaviour at all.

He wished me sweet dreams and left. I went to kitchen to get the baby monitor and he offered to rub my neck which has been really painful today. I agreed and he rubbed that, then my back, then SF.

He told me he was sorry about that too. I said God intended for a husband and wife to make love and it was not offending anyone, I think he thinks to much.

Then, I got up and came to bed. He told me I could stay with him, but I didn't respond to that.

I checked his phone tonight and I believe he's deleted everything relevant anyway. He had about 5 photos with her on his phone and 3 of just her in various fully dressed poses. He definately feels more for her than a friend although I agree with posters who said the affection is not returned.

She had sent him one photo where she was holding a sign that said I miss you, please bring cake.

Anyway, he's sleeping very peacefully and I jumped on to start a plan B letter.

I'm confused by the posts by KA and Miss M.

I don't know what to do. I am definately doing a better plan A job and will keep it up, but wouldn't plan B be the best option? I fear my inaction and I guess I want to control him leaving so that he comes back on my terms, not his again.

This has been a terrible false recovery and I really believe I was much better off before he came home at the start of this month. I have messed up all plans.

I will still consider one MB counselling session. It will be costly and I am concerned that 50 minutes is not enough to cover everything. Does anyone know the process?

I get the feeling WH doesn't want to leave the M or the kids or me, but I don't know if anything is going to change the way it is.

I'm rambling, might try to sleep.

Thank you
K