Hello, good morning, newday.

It's Thursday 17th Dec.

Tuesday night I asked exactly what does she want - she didn't know. Didn't want to talk about 'stuff', was exhausted & had a huge workload to do at home.

She sat down in the middle of the kids & watched the telly.

Not a hope of 'real' convo with children around.

The kids went to be about 9pm. I sat with laptop in sittingroom.
TV off. She joined me with her own laptop & made me a cup of tea.

I was angry & very fed up, so was she.
She was trying to be pleasant, so was I.

We both looked at each other & broke into nervous/hopeful/flirty smiles.

I started with a techno question to her expertise.
I told her that my firewall was never turned on, that I was learning about the security aspects of my pc, that I was stunned at the amount of open ports, so I'd started looking at the outward inward stuff that my pc was sending/receiveing.

I told her that everytime I went on the network, my own pc, started unbeknownst to me to communicate with her PDA, Itouch phone, the main HD, & all other devices in the house including the kids mobile phones & my own. That I'd spent the day reading stuff that I really did not want to read from files to complete rubbish.

She sat silently.

I asked her if she'd ever used a sim reader.
She said no, that the active sync infared would do that anyway.
I said that's what I have & I didn't know it, because everytime I open my webmail & online phone account all the contacts & other stuff from her, my & the kids phones come into my account.

I asked her if she'd ever returned stuff to the elect shop did they refund her or give a credit voucher.

She said it was fairly hassle free even if you'd opened the software why.

Well I told her I'd just wasted a load of money on a 3g sim master reader/writer, that I'd been using it for a while & obviously don't need it when active sync is doing a way more comprehensive 'info pick up' job.

She was very surprised.

One of the children came downstairs right at that moment, & needed hugs & the two of us to backup & say prayers again.

We did the loving parents, I noticed during the prayer watery eyes, mine too.

Child settled.

Will continue in mo. have to look biz here at work.

I have no credit card. I really really messed up financially two years in a row & wife bailed me out both times. (That is one of the biggest love busters - "When are you going to sort it out" is a constant question from herself & "Are you following this/that project? Did you get the funds sorted? etc.")

This I know & acknowledge as my bad, & fixable problem.

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I asked her would she buy me a book on line. Yeah sure, she logged on.

I asked her to get "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass for me.

She sat reading about it for quiet a while.

Then asked "Do you think this would really change us?" I dunno, wouldn't hurt to read it or maybe it would & be helpful too, anything that stops the hurt that's going on here would be great.

Yeah with a sigh, she said.

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She asked me why did I want to do this now, after all these years.

I told her I was sick & tired of the way we are living, it hurts too much, both of us & our children. She agreed.

She asked me why I'd started proceedings for a seperation.

I told her I didn't feel safe anymore.
She said it was the same for her.

It had gotten to the point where I dreaded her coming home, & she dreaded coming home, both of us are hurting.

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She said she knew I don't trust her. She feels like not trusting me either. She reckons I am vunerable to an indescretion myself.

I told her that was right, nor should she trust me, we are all vunerable, that is why we have to protect ourselve & not put ourselve in stupid positions especially when we're distant.

She says she has no one to talk with about how it is for her.
I told her she has me, that I will be that for her, & I felt the same, guys don't do chats with each other about this sort of stuff.

She feels she's done huge lifestyle changes & I still expect more.
She has done a lot, & yes I do expect more.
Which leaves her feeling constantly not good enough, or never capable of being so.

That was ditto for me re feeling not good enough too.

That it's driving her nuts to be constantly under scrutiny.
I said I hated living this way too. That we really must learn to live or lives as open books with each other, That is why change has to happen now.

So she told me it really hurt that I'd go ahead with a seperation. I told her I will & will teach our children not to relate as we do, or the alternative become the best relationship role models for our children.

She asked how.

I read the intro to love busters from the website books, where Jim is at point of hating his wife.

We talked about the benefits of not doing anything without enthuasiastic agreement in very basic terms, ala buying a piece of furniture & deciding to go out for a night.
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She asked how much commitment timewise would it take to get this done.

2 hours once a week for nearly a year. - doable she thinks.

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She spoke a lot about not being the same person she was years ago. She questioned herself about how she gave her self permission to do that, knowing it was wrong.

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She wants me to believe that she will never ever be unfaithful again & would I at least try to get over that hurdle & start on the practical side of making our marriage better.

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On my part I've been very skeptical of the changes.
I spoke to my own parents who think she's really in a different behaviour mode & has beeen for the last few years.

My Mom sugg'd that the hang up was my own, for not accepting these as real, so not even giving a chance to re-enter my heart.

Which prob drove her to distancing again.

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Slept in our bed.

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This morning lots of affection pre-dep for work.

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I will reply to all you kind posters who took the time to consider our marriagae worthwhile, I appreciate everyone's point of view Thank You.

I haven't given up snooping, not by a long shot yet.
There is still zero evidence of any other person being involved here.

It was her behaviours that brought out my thoughts.

Having read this I'm begining to understand my contribution to this

"a mediocre marriage lacking passion will not remain mediocre very long. Once you lose the feeling of love in your marriage, it’s a slippery slope all the way down to disliking, or even
hating, each other. Instead of bringing out the best in each other, you will find yourselves bringing out the worst."

That's what we had post affair.

"spouse is almost impossible to avoid unless you divorce,
especially if you have children. So it should come as no surprise
that the person in the best position to withdraw unprecedented
numbers of love units is your spouse. And for that reason, you
are more likely to hate your spouse than anyone else. Your spouse
is the one hardest to avoid—no matter how miserable he or she
makes you feel."

That's what we've been doing for the last couple of years, some fantastic, brilliant moments, some absolutely low low mo.s with always this underlying feeling of no permanent joy/trust/longevity.

Day after day, month after month, year after year, your spouse
can withdraw love units by making demands of you, criticizing
you, lying to you, annoying you with disgusting habits and
thoughtless activities, calling you disrespectful names, and even being physically or verbally abusive to you. And what can you do
about it?

We are both guilty of the highlighted stuff.

"What can you do to get him or her to stop?

You do what most people do: Dish it back as fast as it comes. If
you’re miserable, then, by golly, you’ll both be miserable. Your
instinct is to destroy the one who is upsetting you and almost all couples respond that way when Love Bank accounts fall into the red.
When a married couple’s relationship starts on a downward slide, the loss of love units usually gains momentum. Instead of caring for each other, spouses devise increasingly painful strategies
to pay each other back for the last thoughtless act.

As negative Love Bank balances increase, the feeling of anger and disrespect increases. Because they live together, a couple cannot avoid each other, and withdrawals continue unabated. The end result is often the violence that comes from a deep and pervasive hatred.

If you find yourselves in Jim and Karen’s third chapter of life, with an unfulfilling marriage that has led you to respond with demands,disrespect, and anger, or if you have just given up on ever having the kind of marriage you need and have created an independent lifestyle that ignores each other’s feelings, this book is for you."

Bingo, this is soooo accurate.

Onwards

The phone, & works emails where handed over promptly with no recriminations after I told her about my wonderful computers ability to get access info from the moon!

Mind games! Why!

I was told wife did not want to live under scrutiny & definitely has nothing to hide, just hated the feeling of being controlled - that I appearantly have the right to demand access to phone at any time.

I did say privacy is hugely dangerous with regards compartmentalising which she has proved is her forte & asked her what was her plan to protect our marriage & to live an open & honest relationship.

She is already according to herself. (shakes head)

I used the analogy to explain this feeling to my wife as...a boxer whose opponent keeps throwing punches after the bell. Its hard to lower your hands/gloves after the bell, because my opponent keeps throwing punches when I am not looking. After awhile I get tired of getting punched, so I leave my hands up in defense.

There's one thing you should stop immediately regardless of whether or not you save your marriage. You should stand up to her talking to you that way in front of the kids.

Pull her aside and let her know that that kind of behavior is unacceptable. It is VERY damaging for the kids to see that.

THAT will win you some respect regardless of what you decide to do. It really is something you SHOULD do.

Good Morning world, it's Friday! Another weekend to live well.
Hope is high.

Thank you Mr Wondering - the idea of having more info than actually on hand is working, working really well. I feel a little deceitful myself for pretending to know more than I do. The payoff is huge however. Thank you.

We've just completed an inventory of all comms, including those late night texts, that bothered me very much. They are from an older woman & an NLP counsellor, whom I rang to verify, who've been supporting wife to overcome her past & live better!

That was her secret!!!

That's brilliant.

It was the secret that was killing me, my thoughts lead me to the wrong conclusion.

Yet it doesn't explain her verbal abuse, or acting out with a massive dose of entitlement. Which are totally unacceptable.

Which we have discussed. I will not remain in convo with abuse. - Boundary No 1. - I will state it as abusive & exit till rationality has returned. (That goes both ways - for her too).
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I do see similarities to our situ & Hogfan's.
The difference is Hogfan actual has EVIDENCE.
I only have my gut instinct (which could be off kilter).
& the cold/distant behaviours of my wife.
I know in the affair world these are some of the actions.

My wife's behaviours add up to a hurting person lashing out.

We discussed those specific hurtful/damaging behaviours.
Since Wednesday they have been eliminated. 3 early days yet.

I am currently in the company of a pleasant, caring spouse again.

Could these be the actions of someone who thought they wanted out, then when handed the absolute exit without a battle did a complete turnaround?

I am skeptical at this point.

It is peaceful, she seems to be caring.
She feels I am guarded (true).

100% full on with our children.

Christmas in 6ix days.

Trip in 7days.

I can live in this peace for then.

I hope it spiralls upward.
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I did seek proper legal advice.
I know exactly where I stand.
If it is adultery.
Spouses must be 6 months apart.
It is a fairly straightforward legal disassembly.
I genuinely know I am not ready for that, nor do I want it.

If it is marital breakdown then the lengthy process begins.
The trauma involved for all of us in breaking up our family & creating a legacy of destruction through divorce is not what I would invite into our home when we have the option of creating a joyful, fun, loving home.

We are lucky. We have the option to live well united as a family.
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I know a lot of you will think I am in cloud blah.
Ireland is a very different culture.
Divorce & family breakdown is not usually encouraged (unless it is abusive), nor is it common in rural Ireland.

I am grateful to be living in a country where intact family is valued & protected by law.

Our statutes are brilliant in forcing individuals within a marriage to wake up & recognise that if they truly want out legally, then 4years is miniscule in the life span of a family.

I believe if a person really wants something there is nothing that will stop them getting/achieving it, accepting physical incapacity which I am confident there are ways of negotiating around to get the ends desired.

We are only each of doing exactly what we are willing to do.

I am solely responsible for my own self.
My wife is as she choses to be.
Currently she is chosing to be fully engaged.

Interesting times. Fun times.
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MyRev thanks for these
"remorse and repentance. Without these qualities, you don't stand much of a chance of a successful R anyway" it seems to me you've walked this tough route before. Yes those sentiments seem real. Tell me if I'm wrong. Could be just waffle to buy time as per the pleasant behaviour.

I want the peace to continue.
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IAM - have what I asked for exactly, re phones etc.

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Wife insists there is no OM. Not even an emotional one.
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Catperson I understand what you are saying about respect.

I know my wife feels bad that she has less time to spend with the children as I do.

This is 2008, she's doing her masters & works full time.
I work very locally & finish at 530pm

It's no bother to me to feed myself & I certainly wouldn't consider who cooks dinner a defined role by gender, it's more about time availablity, hunger & desire.

I'm wondering why you consider it possible the no love exists.

Snooping is covered.

MIL is her confidante.

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Chrysalis

Thankyou you saved my bacon. You are right with regard you've walked that line. I still did the ultimatum, mine was more 'get fully on board or end this marriage'.

"Let's see if I have this correct. You know that your W has a huge problem with independent behaviors (IB.) This is a pretty-near universal wayward trait.

Unfortunately in today's world it is considered the norm for married people to have a truckload of independent behaviors. People don't see this as a problem until they get hit by the infidelity bus. At the very least your W is thinking like a single person, not a M person."

Wow you really see it for what it is.
Thank you for giving me the words "thinking like a single person, not a M person" - that's what I was able to open for recognition with herself. It's nearly the culture of where she works 70% single, party heads.

The thing is it is up to her in how she relates & live, not I.

The other thing is for me say what I will & won't accept.
Which I am a work in progress on.
Have nailed the boundary no overnights without me.


At this moment looking at HNHN & LB books.
Can see us doing a lot more work.

Thank you for your calm & insightful observation, & direction.


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Pops, she asked me to set up skype so we'd stay in reg ctc while apart. That's good in itself. I will not be sitting here waiting for the call. I've planned a very full, fun diary for myself & the family while she's away. Thank you.

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InLikeFlynn, good analogy, defenses up I am aware of that. It can feel like the cold war at times. Thing is don't really want to launch those nukes, it would be self annilation too.
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Pomdbd3, thanks for saying it, the kids must be respected too. Any verbal bull is unacceptable.

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Gotta go earn a crust & get paid for it.

Donal.

Thank you all.

I agree with you about marriage being protected by law. I wish the US had similar laws and I wish it really forced a long process with penalties for adultery and cheating along with a process to encourage reconciliation and the preservation of family.

Ripping a family apart because "I'm not happy" or "I'm a better parent if I'm happy, which means we must split and the kids will be better that way" are idiotic justifications for ripping a family apart.

So I'm glad Ireland makes it hard, as it should be everywhere.

Donal, I hope you're right. Only you know your situation. And yes, it is possible it's all tied up in her personal feelings and no A exists, and you were reading more into the situation than actually exists. I'm one of the first people to believe that we all act out of fear and self-defeating thoughts, so it surely could be your case. As long as you protect yourself, I'm good.

Best of luck.

Well it's been very peaceful here for the last few days.

Spouse due home tomorrow.

While away, have had 2-3 phone calls a day, lot's of affectionate words & texts.

I want to believe they are truthful, I am cautious.

Morning Donel,

Give thanks for arriving safe to this point. I hope that your marriage is fully met.