|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 6,128 |
On the flip side of that coin, I am so very happy that I did not run into some of the "pink smoke blowing evangelists" when I got here. I may have wasted even more years on a horrid person had people convinced me she could actually change. The damage to my son would have also been enormous. OMG! Agreeing with MrW and medc BOTH in the same DAY! Life has no meaning! One of the reasons I don't post on many threads is that I feel like MB has almost created a reality of its own - a virtual reality that could not stand up to the true light of day. Failure to believe that MB is absolute results in castigation. I still believe that, if you have any chance at all, MB is your best bet. But there isn't always a chance. I do sometimes feel there is an underlying sentiment that, if you fail to recover the M, it's because you didn't follow the plan. As anyone knows who followed my sitch, I failed to follow the plan repeatedly. OTOH the Harley's do pay for this website. And they still offer great advice on marriage building.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
But, since he seems to be comparing the success rate of Plan A to Plan B, by saying Plan B makes reconcilliation less likely(as compared to plan A, presumably). The success rate of Plan B must be less than 15%(assuming Mark's figure on Plan A was correct). So, best case scenario using this information is 29.9999...% success.
Sound logical? The intended goal of Plan B is to protect the mental health of the BS. Its success is not guaged by reconciliation but by the mental health of the BS. He never gives any reconciliation statistics about Plan B, because that is not the POINT of Plan B. Plan B is supposed to protect the BS's mental and physical health. It is SEPARATION that increases the risk of divorce, not necessarily Plan B. Plan B would logically INCREASE the risk of reconciliation because it was done in a strategic manner, following Plan A. [versus a separation that just kicks the WS out in a way that alienates the spouse] It prevents the BS from having nervous breakdowns, etc, which could preclude eventual reconciliation when the affair ends. Dr. Harley says that the majority of marriages do not end in divorce over infidelity. [most studies show around 50%] 95% of affairs NEVER make it to marriage and crumble in under 2 years. I found this post by Dr H that might give some clarity: Dr. Harley: "When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly. That leaves two other choices which are both bad. The first is to continue plan A indefinitely, trying to encourage the WS to leave the lover, and the second is to initiate plan B, which is to completely separate from the WS. The problem with a coninuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them. Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation. And 95% of all affairs eventually "die a natural death." If you do absolutely nothing, they usually end.
So I've recommended plan B rather early in the effort to separate the WS from his lover. In your case, you've noticed that you have experienced a detached feeling about it all, even your husband's filing for divorce. That's the way it's supposed to turn out. You are far more attractive while in emotional control of yourself than you would ever be begging and pleading for his return. You tried that tactic already, and it hasn't worked.
Plan B doesn't always work, but it does protect you from the intense emotional pain that you could be experiencing day in and day out. Your husband may divorce you, but it won't be because you have implemented plan B. And if he returns to you, it won't be because you have implemented plan B. But if he does return, with a sincere willingness to completely leave his lover and follow our plan for recovery, he'll find a wife who is still sane if you follow plan B."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531 |
Plan B would logically INCREASE the risk of reconciliation because it was done in a strategic manner, following Plan A. [versus a separation that just kicks the WS out in a way that alienates the spouse] It prevents the BS from having nervous breakdowns, etc, which could preclude eventual reconciliation when the affair ends. I actually believe Plan B can increase the chance of reconcilliation. I have used a modified version of Plan B for my own personal recovery - I have no intention of recovering my M. Probably because I've written off the chance of reconcilliation, I've don't a pretty good job of it. I have pursued new interests, met new people, and created a new life for myself that is all my own. I am a vasty improved person from who I was before d-day. And I have seen how it has affected WstbxH. On the rare occassions when we do speak, he is much different now. He treats me better, even with a little deference. His fantasy-land is diving into reality now as his monsterous debts have piled up to a point where he can no longer ignore them. Domestic issues such as arranging pickup/drop-off of OW's DD to and from school are wearing on them - they moved away from OWH only to discover that he actually provided a valuable service to them and can no longer do that. I find this stuff out through OWH and my DS. I can almost envision that if I had sent a PBL outlining what he has to do to come back, he'd be considering them. As it is, he has no option but to try to manage life with OW. Given that she is a serial cheater, it's only a matter of time before she cheats on him. I do have a question about marriages that recover after Plan B. How does the BS deal with the fact that they were outright rejected by their WS to begin with, and they weren't given a chance until the A burned itself out on it's own? I can see handling a Plan A recovery, where the WS is instantly, or at least rather quickly remorseful and rejects the OP in favour of the BS. But how do you feel anything other than "better than nothing at all" when you have to wait for the A to disintigrate before the WS even considers returning?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
On the flip side of that coin, I am so very happy that I did not run into some of the "pink smoke blowing evangelists" when I got here. I may have wasted even more years on a horrid person had people convinced me she could actually change. The damage to my son would have also been enormous. I will tell you a little secret I have learned here. I know that many times we see marriages here that you and I both know would be better off ending. I really do think we see the worst cases around here. We hear of WS' who have been gaslighting their spouses for years........and getting away with it because the BS WANTS to believe it. I learned that telling the BS to kick them to the curb and run for divorce rarely works. So unless it is EXTREME, I rarely mention divorce at all. [even when I am thinking they need to lose the bum] Instead, I persuade them to go into PLAN B and lay out a strategy to get them into it. That seems much more palatable to a conflict avoider who has been gaslighted for years. It is a STEP in the right direction that removes them from the situation and allows them to see the marriage in a REALISTIC LIGHT. Plan B prepares them for divorce and gets them in a frame of mind where they can see the marriage more realistically. They become detached enough in Plan B to move to divorce with EASE. This way, the BS doesn't lose. If the WS really does change, he can consider reconciliation. If not, the stage is set and ready for a divorce, with very little kicking and screaming. I have helped BS's on this forum get to this point, and one in particular is DIVORCED today [thank GOD!!] and it is a GREAT SUCCESS. His W was a serial cheater who gaslighted him for YEARS. But he was so addicted to her abuse that it would have taken dynamite to get him out of that horrendous marriage. Plan B did the trick! edited to add: I recommend Plan B whereever it seems appropriate, but sometimes I am doubtful about the future of the marriage. Many marriages are very hopeful, though, IMO.
Last edited by MelodyLane; 12/18/08 09:43 AM.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,775
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,775 |
I don't disagree that Plan B helps the BS , much like the 180 mentioned on another site. It gives you some control over your life and gets one away from some serious abuse(the gaslighting, blaming, marital history re-writing, etc.)
But, if Plan A succeeds 15% of the time, and the seperation in plan B increases the chance of divorce as compared to plan A, the only interpretation I can come up with is that , overall, using both Plans, the expected reconcilliation rate would be less than 30%. So, I don't get how the 50% recovery figure comes about.
I love Plan B(initially, it was hard), in that it got me away from the blaming and crazymaking. It allowed me to keep my dignity and it did lead to the demise of the affair(Man, did they have a hard time managing all the kid rearing, finances, and seeing each other in the light of day. The disapprobation and ostracization of my wife and her AP really took her by surprise(exposure is a really good thing).
Now, my XW has found herself alone, taking care of 3 young kids, working a job for the first time in years, and with a well known history of infidelity in our community. I see my kids frequently and they are all doing well. I socialize with my ex in-laws and am a frequent guest in their home. I came out smelling like a rose in this.
But, I would have liked it better if my XW had agreed to try and sought counseling for her personality disorder. Could not get her near a therapist, though and she would not stop cheating. So, Plan B was a success. I am away from a serial cheater and abuser.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
Zelmo, the 15% rate in Plan A is the # of affairs that END during Plan A, not reconciliation rates. Since Plan A only lasts anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months, it often doesn't outlast the affair. Most marriages DON'T end over adultery. 95% of affairs end within 2 years.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584 |
But, if Plan A succeeds 15% of the time, and the seperation in plan B increases the chance of divorce as compared to plan A, the only interpretation I can come up with is that , overall, using both Plans, the expected reconcilliation rate would be less than 30%. So, I don't get how the 50% recovery figure comes about. I understand the 15% figure to refer to situations where the WS has left for the lover, or at least is refusing to give up the relationship. That's not the case in perhaps the majority of situations here - the WS often doesn't leave the marriage, and does make an effort to break off the A, but can't quite stop contact. In those cases, Plan A plus a confident, rebuilt BS and the eventual threat of divorce is often enough to bring about a recovery situation. It's when the WS is undecided between the two relationships that a determined Plan B becomes necessary, and in those cases it's much less likely that the marriage would recover anyway. TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871 |
Most marriages DON'T end over adultery. This is an interesting statment. Do you have any information regarding what most marriages DO end over? It would seem to me that adultery is at least a contributing factor in many divorces. Are you saying that it's not the adultery itself, but the problems in the marriage PRIOR to the adultery that caused the divorce? That would certainly make the most sense to me.
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
I know its confusing, but Dr Harley is not referring to "reconciliation" here. He is referring to the ending of the affair. He is saying that the affair most often does not end in the first few weeks: "When a WS refuses to leave the lover, there are no good options for the BS. At first, plan A is recommended because there is a slim hope (15%) that, with encouragement, a WS will make the decision to leave the lover. But 85% don't do that, even when plan A is implemented perfectly."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
Most marriages DON'T end over adultery. This is an interesting statment. Do you have any information regarding what most marriages DO end over? It would seem to me that adultery is at least a contributing factor in many divorces. Are you saying that it's not the adultery itself, but the problems in the marriage PRIOR to the adultery that caused the divorce? That would certainly make the most sense to me. SL, I don't know what the causes of divorce are, only that Dr H has said that most marriages don't end over affairs.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 5,871 |
SL, I don't know what the causes of divorce are, only that Dr H has said that most marriages don't end over affairs. Awwww, MELLLL! You're supposed to have the answer  Infidelity brought many of our problems to light, most of them having to do with my WH's conflict avoidance. I really was broadsided, had no idea how pitifully unhappy he was. I believe he had checked out long before he had the affairs, and if that's his way of dealing with marital problems, I don't want to stick around for the next set of marital woes...
Me-BS-38
Married 1997; son, 8yo
Divorced April 2009
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,531 |
Most marriages DON'T end over adultery. This is an interesting statment. Do you have any information regarding what most marriages DO end over? It would seem to me that adultery is at least a contributing factor in many divorces. Are you saying that it's not the adultery itself, but the problems in the marriage PRIOR to the adultery that caused the divorce? That would certainly make the most sense to me. I interpret this statement to mean that most marriages in which adultery has occured don't end. I actually agree that it's not always the adultery itself that ends many marriages, but adultery never happens on it's own. It is always accompanied by a whole host of other problems (lies, deceipt, anger, cruelty etc.). These other things which probably are the "straw that broke the camel's back" in most situations, rarely happen on their own. You do raise some more intersting questions. Why do marriages end? From this board, it would seem that 99% of them end because of adultery, though we are a select group here and this is an infidelity forum. But what percentage of divorces are due to adultery vs. something else? I also know marriages end because of abuse. How many marriages end that had no adultery or abuse and what were the reasons?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,775
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,775 |
Interesting, but confusing.
So, 85% of the time Plan A fails to end the affair,ergo no recovery at that point.
So, Plan B is implemented and the odds of that leading to divorce increase(as compared to Plan A). So , we have 85% of the affairs continuing after Plan A and Plan B having even less of a success rate than Plan A(less than 15% recovery). This means at most about 30% will survive an affair.
This corresponds to the stat I read on one site, Infidelitysatistics, which claims that 31% of marriages survive after the revelation of an affair.
I know most affairs do not survive long term. But, that does not lead to the conclusion that the affair dying leads to the marriage surviving. In my case, the affair did not survive, nor did the marriage, as the affair continued and divorce was the only sane option with no willingness of the XW to get help or do the tough work.
I expect that this is very common. Affair and marriage both die.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,584 |
I seem to remember Dr. Harley saying somewhere that a large proportion of couples end up 'emotionally divorced' - still married and sharing a home, but without intimacy or friendship.
I imagine that's the natural outcome of 'recovering' from infidelity by brushing it under the carpet and not facing up to the grisly rebuilding?
TA
"Integrity is telling myself the truth. And honesty is telling the truth to other people." - Spencer Johnson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,414
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,414 |
SL, I don't know what the causes of divorce are, only that Dr H has said that most marriages don't end over affairs. With all due respect ... this statement just doesn't hold water when compared to the other statistics that most M's don't recover from A's. It may just be the good Dr. playing semantics ... what if the statement was worded: "Most affairs ultimately lead to Divorce"They may not go directly to Plan D, but the fact of the matter is that once a M has been touched by infidelity, the chances of it continuing long term go way down. Whether it was the A itself or the state of the M pre-A is really irrelevant to the cold hard reality that the M failed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 447
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Hi silentlucidity. I believe that in most cases the AFFAIR is the CAUSE of the MORTAL marital problems NOT the symptom of them. Of course there are ALWAYS some problems in the marriage, I am speaking simply of the one that actually KILLS the marriage. Most people that do not actually leave the marriage for the OP are cake eaters that simply try the ADDICTION (OP) and feel they can control the affair and it will not interfere with their marriage because the BH or BW will never find out.... :RollieEyes: What actually happens is that because the BH or BW FEELS something is wrong because of the marital energy going somewhere else and the emotional distance they DO find out eventually OR begin simply fighting over the lack of participation in the marriage by the WH or WH and the fighting begins  That simply make the OP MORE attractive because the OP is not lovebusting. The ensuing damage to the marriage then does cause the death of the marriage. Those marriages where the affair can be killed completely DO have a great chance of success because of the lack of continuing contact and the BH or BW using their MB skills to begin their rebuilding of the marriage. At least this has been my experience and seems to mirror MOST of the affairs that people have asked for help with. God bless. Jim
Last edited by Jim_Flint; 12/18/08 11:05 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996 |
I don't know what the causes of divorce are, only that Dr H has said that most marriages don't end over affairs. What I think this means is this >>> .... from the WAYWARDS perspective, most affairs are not an effort to end the marriage. Most waywards want to stay married AND keep their affair going without sacrificing their independent activity. A'la the 20% 80% idea. 80/20 thread
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,316 |
As I recall from the MB Weekend Seminar, Dr. Harley says that while it's true that most marriages don't end in divorce over adultery, it's also true that most don't RECOVER the marriage.
I would think this is due to a "sweep it under the rug" approach. I believe that many people forget the MOST important part of the MB program...the RECOVERY part...The part where the couple addresses and eliminates lovebusters, engages in meeting the ENs of their spouse, spending at least 15 hours/week with one another...Following the POJA, etc....Doing all that results in ROMANTIC LOVE between the couple...You know, REALLY working the program to create a marriage of EXTRAORDINARY CARE...
MB is NOT just about "Plans A and B"...those deal only with busting up the affair, but they do not address truly fixing the broken marriage...For that, the MB recovery program must be followed and the best way of doing that is to go to an MB Weekend Seminar where everything is laid out for you and you become a part of the MB follow-up program where trained professionals walk you through the whole process...
Mrs. W
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
Interesting, but confusing.
So, 85% of the time Plan A fails to end the affair,ergo no recovery at that point.
So, Plan B is implemented and the odds of that leading to divorce increase(as compared to Plan A). So , we have 85% of the affairs continuing after Plan A and Plan B having even less of a success rate than Plan A(less than 15% recovery). This means at most about 30% will survive an affair. Separation might increase the odds of divorce, but it does not mean that even a majority divorce. Increase does not = majority. The majority of marriages don't end over adultery according to Dr Harley. And again, 95% of affairs DO END in under 2 years. I found a statistic on DivorcePeers that states that: Percentage of couple who preserve their marriage after an affair
▪ 64% This statistic below is highly touted by Dr Harley, that most marriages do not really RECOVER after infidelity because they have no plan: Of those couples who remain married despite an affair, what percentage later describe the marriage as unhappy or empty?
▪ 78%
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996 |
As I recall from the MB Weekend Seminar, Dr. Harley says that while it's true that most marriages don't end in divorce over adultery, it's also true that most don't RECOVER the marriage. yes. look at this quote (written today) by another MB member: If my WW expressed any remorse for her sleazy affair I would be elated. We live under the same roof, have sex and do everything together but she hasn't come close to apologizing for the lies, deceit, double standards and hypocrisy.
_________________________
Me: 32
WW: 32
Kids: 0
Together: 9¼ years
Married: 6¼ years
Location 1: Berlin, Germany 01/2008 to 05/2008
Location 2: Sydney, Australia 05/2008 to present
PA/EA began: 01/22/2008
WW left for OM in England: 01/28/2008
WW returned for 9 days: 04/2008
WW back since 05/21/2008 - regular SF and integrated life
Separate rooms while WW recovers from surgery
Plan A: 01/28/2008 to present
EA/PA ended 01/12/2008 ??????
It's pretty interesting. Especially the dates. No divorce, and a marriage still very much at risk
|
|
|
|
1 members (renki),
779
guests, and
40
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,624
Posts2,323,518
Members72,025
| |
Most Online6,102
Jul 3rd, 2025
|
|
|
|
