Yes mam its a deal breaker in my book, so courier or burn the crap works for me. And with the withdrawals contact on any form can start us all over again and I a'int gonna do.

But yes its a really big if. I think he was just spouting off to the kids, only hours earlier he was arguing with DD17 on how everything was my fault to only apologize to her 2 hours later. Whatever!

No ones holding any breath here and its really quite funny cuz I would be surprised if he didn't get back in his car once the conditions are handed to him. And that's whether Christmas or 2 months from now. LOL

The wishy washy thing is VERY common, just so you know.

He's on the fence.

He better get off soon, tho...it'll start comin' outta his mouth before long.

So ya like that eh Pep??? Maybe I can talk him into slave labor for you IM's too along with that apology, or chinese water torture or walking on coals, plucking of the fingernails one by one IDK the possibilities are endless maybe something we can all watch together over some hot buttered popcorn LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

I'll settle for him making you unbelievably happy for the rest of your days together.

T2L,
given that we are talking about Christmas day...

How about you ask him if the A is over, if he says yes, ask for the NC letter. Then make the call to Sea Hag and have him sign the rest of the conditions.
Then he canhand over his cell, laptop, whatever for you to lock away for the day or whatever, and then have a nice Christmas day, while making it totally clear to him that you will expect the passwords/bank account/etc etc that needs to be done ASAP to be done either later that night or the next day.

JMHO

and then hand him a christmas stocking filled with coal and poop

Call me a sucker or a hopeless romantic, but I would like to see a plan in place, where if he did show up on your doorstep Christmas day, that you could have him agree to it all if he was willing, to do everything possible to do on a holiday where EVERYTHING IS CLOSED :RollieEyes: where if he did it he could spend the day with his family, and go home to his mom in the evening.

This would need to be suitably hard, though as much as I love footrubs and groveling obeisance, would not necessarily mean making nice nice with the IM's. Seriously, it may be a while before he's ready for that, but if he'll talk to Steve he may be able to start toward R even so.

So, at the very least, I am thinking......

1. Agree to all your boundaries. Signed, definitely. In blood - I'll leave that up to your discretion.

2. Break up with the Sea Hag on the spot, via email or text messaging which you get to send. Shoot, maybe even both! There is no such thing as overkill when getting rid of a tumor of that size.

3. Having a family member or friend go and pick up all his stuff from the apartment, WITHOUT HIM!!!

4. Give you his phone until he can get the number changed.

5. Delete any and all email accounts, myspace pages, etc. etc., or if it's not possible to do that immediately, provide you with all passwords and preferably let you change them so he only has access through you.

6. I will probably think of more, but if he is willing to take this much action right there on the spot, you can probably take the risk of letting him spend one day with the family, making it SO SO SO clear that if he does not follow through at any point, you will immediately cut all contact with him again.

:MerryChristmas:

There's a rule in dog training, that you want to always set them up to succeed, not to fail. And you always want to leave a way out, you don't want to back them into a corner. So along those lines, you don't want to put so many conditions that it's impossible *for a reasonable, repentant wayward* to achieve. I agree with everyone saying to ask for whatever could reasonably be done considering the time and date; and him going home to his mom's at the end of the day seems great.

Nothing new to report, still Dark Plan B day, no contact or sight of me officially 5 weeks today. I am proud of myself however that I have not broken my Plan B darkness in any way. I have been very careful, sending kids home 1st to be sure he was no where near home to pick them up. When he picks up the kids I stay away from all visible areas so he cannot even catch a glimpse from the window, I do not answer any phones and I am silent when the kids talk. No texts, no emails, nuttin but dark! I know its supposed to be for me but truly what drives me more is punishing him by it. LOL I know wrong mindset.

Still hate it by the way. I know were not supposed to think about them, but man truthfully it's hard not to obsess and turn to a rage-a-holic in your mind! I mean I gotta stay on myself.

So anyways Christmas Party at my house after church tomorrow. About 35 people, should be nice and distracting, at least that's the hope. Well friends and fellow Plan B'ers were almost through the Christmas season, whew. I am certainly ready for the new year. Feel like this has been the worst year of my life. I know that one day, I may look back and maybe be proud of myself but for now Buh-bye 2008.

G'night y'all.....

You, my darling daughter, are being an angle. (That would be obtuse and not acute, in case you're curious!:RollieEyes:) Who cares if you intermediaries get foot rubs and groveling obeisance (well, it's Christmas-I guess you can DREAM), anyway? It doesn't even really matter to any of you personally that you were insulted. There was no genuine harm, no foul done to any of YOU.

But to his wife? There was gross disrespect to her wishes, defiance of her request to implement a system that would ease her pain and give rest to her heart, total disregard for cooperating in something that would help her survive a disaster of his own creation. Getting his own way was all that mattered to him. There wasn't even a distant second place open for his wife.

So, from my point of view, 60 years in the making and admittedly jaundiced, allowing him to come home without his making a specific renunciation of, and seeking forgiveness for, those ways in which he displayed contempt for his wife (of which his treatment of the intermediaries is only one) is a set-up for another disaster. Think of tst. When he finally recommitted, he did it TO THE BONE. There wasn't any hold back, no self-serving justification, no hanging onto any part of his wandering. And even then, recovery has been difficult for them at times. I don't think it would even be POSSIBLE with an allegedly-former wayward, who still was trying to say, "I didn't do anything wrong," about any part of the rebellion.

So there, my angel angle. That's why I disagree with you.


tl

I do understand! I do see what you are saying, and agree that he needs to be repentant and humble.

VETS, I have read so many books that I can't remember but I thought it was SAA that had an example that the WS did not apologize, tho I do expect one. Gotta go to church I'll look again later.

"Humble" is the key here. The resistance to the intermediaries has its root in pride, an unwillingness to humble himself in front of "others", especially of YOUR choosing. That's why an unwillingness to acknowledge, and seek forgiveness for, his treatment of your selected emissaries, would indicated to me that the pride is still there--that sense of entitlement to having things HIS way, that helped lead to the affair in the first place--still alive and well. It may be in camo. It may be hiding behind a tree, or in a bouquet of red roses, or under the lid of a Christmas box with a ribbon on top...but it's still there, and you'll see it again sooner or later. You and your kids don't need THAT!

tl

I do not need or want any apology from WH.
I am but a a tool for this marriage -

My ego is 100% untouched by anything he does - I'm with Neakie on this.

If WH returns to THE MARRIAGE but hates the tools that helped bring about his pain in plan B - I'm fine with that. Really, fine. It will be temporary.

WH needs to be repentant and humble and showing respect for the damage he's done to his FAMILY.

Then I disagree with both of you. I never suggested, nor do I believe, that humbling himself regarding the intermediaries has anything to do with any of you, your needs, or your feelings. He would be humbling himself to HER, in a place where he had previously exalted pride and self. I'm not telling her what to do, but I am unalterably of the opinion that what he does regarding this matters to HIM, and therefore, to them.

tl

My sister RN,

I actually agree with you more than I disagree -I just don't think this is the hill to die on - and if they do get to recovery I just might drive over to see them in person, and in person, I am pert near irresistible

I can attest to that! Me and Drew Carey.

Where is that photo?

I have no doubt! I am also fully convinced of your sense of your own personhood, and could never be persuaded that it depended on whether or not a stranger apologized to you. Maybe not anybody else either. I'll think on't.

tl

I wouldn't die on that hill, either, if it were only about words to be said. But I think I would die on the hill of "Do you or do you not care about what matters to me?" If I were choosing a hill to die on, of course. I guess it sticks with me right now because basically that's what I'm doing in my own life. Different greenery, different flowers, different goat trails...but the same hill.

tl