This is a new post from my first post. I feel like I am going crazy!
So H had the A. Left the home since May 8th. You can view my other post to see all the details. But in a jist he's angry, drinking, crazy and blames it all on me.
So here's the newest. By the way I am not in Plan B. He wanted to come by the house on Saturday after son's game to use tools and clean my air filter on my car and look at the brakes. This request sent me into tears.
Does he think I want my air filter to be clean, my breaks done and to hang out and be friends? So I called him and nicely said fine come over but I would like you to know how I feel about it if your going to come over. I tell him you want to do this work on my car and then drive home to the OW and crawl into bed with her at the end of the day. I tell him I don't want my car fixed I want my Marriage and my H. I say that I am uncomfortable with it, and that I should learn how to function on my own, but that his gesture was a very sweet and thoughtful thing. Anyways he blew up in a fit of rage cussed me out and hung up.
Last week H tells me to go ahead and by Disneyland tickets for my son's 10th bday.
He texts my D17 last night and say he wasn't invited but that he would put aside everything so we can hang out together at Disneyland for my son's Bday. WHAT?!??!?! I don't want to act as if we are a family and then at the end of the day he is going to crawl into bed with the OW. I mean is this cake eating? Am i crazy?? Should I be allowing him to come over and do these things? I did however tell him to let me know what day I can have son meet him to visit for his bday.
He then of course texts my D17 that no one can stop him from going anywhere or doing anything. My D17 says, dad mom just wants to live her life without you right now. he rants well how is she going to do that when I pay for everything.
He has stopped for the last 3 weeks sending D17 text pictures of himself shirtless thank God. But is showing up at the games and taking his shirt off because he's "working on his tan". Oh Lord Mid-Life crisis.
I am not trying to be cold or mean to my H. I just don't want to pretend that the OW is not in this picture or that he is not living with her while fully married to me. By allowing him over I feel like all I have is my self respect and setting some boundaries for myself and I'm just ignoring it. OR do you think I should allow him to go? I have friends say yes he should go so he can see what he's missing but knowing my H he will stay like this forever with both of us. I've read Dr. Dobson's Love must be tough and he says if you appease them then your really doomed in his experience. Then I read the Divorce Remedy and some of those friends think I should let him.
Please give me advice or tell me if I'm nuts....Help
I'm open to any suggestions as I have no clue what's right anymore, I don't want to make things worse-funny as If I can he already lives with her since August.
Sounds like you should have already gone to Plan B before you reached this place. Since you didn't, I would recommend going to a very short Plan A. Even 3 weeks of Plan A would be better than diving into Plan B with things the way they are between you.
I think you should let him work on your car, and thank him and admire him plenty for it. I think you should ask him to come to Disneyland with you, and make sure it is a fun trip for him.
Be the wife you want him to miss.
The danger is not in him becoming a cake-eater. Actually you want him to become a cake-eater. The only problem comes for people who don't have the strength to COMPLETELY cut off the cake supply when it's time. I don't think you're in that category.
If you go to Plan B now, your M may still be salvaged. If you can do even a very short Plan A, and then go into a hardcore pitch black Plan B, your chance of saving your M leaps to a near surety.
That's what I advise as ideal. What are you going to be able to do, physically and emotionally?
Good Lord, Woman!!
You should be in Plan B!!!! You sound like you are at the end of your rope and about to have a nervous breakdown!!
Are you in Plan A? I will go back and read your other threads later I have to finish a paper for school right now.
Like you, my WH-Mr. Gray is living with his girlfriend. I'm lucky that I went to B before that happened.
Breath, Milady, breeeeeeaaaaathe!! I don't want to see you end up in the hospital over this!!
Take care,
Charlotte
I agree with Neak. Have you read all of the material suggested on this site? Do plan A, let him enjoy the trip with your son, THEN go to a plan B...draw up a plan B letter, post it here first for pointers, when it's ready, then give it to him and disappear to him...let him see what life will be like totally without you. But it's much more effective after plan A. Being as he still wants to do things for you, spend time with you/family, you have a good chance of recovering this if you want it. That's what you need to decide...do you want it?
I do still want the marriage, at this point at least. Each day that does by it gets smaller, but for now yes.
My H and I really have no contact for the most part. I do not call, text or email unless he has asked some specific question. So although we are not in a Plan B there is hardly any communication. Maybe 1 or 2 times a month via email only, but since 2 weeks ago have had to see him do to sons football games.
You can read my 1st post on all the details if you'd like.
I do still want the marriage, at this point at least. Each day that does by it gets smaller, but for now yes.
My H and I really have no contact for the most part. I do not call, text or email unless he has asked some specific question. So although we are not in a Plan B there is hardly any communication. Maybe 1 or 2 times a month via email only, but since 2 weeks ago have had to see him do to sons football games.
You can read my 1st post on all the details if you'd like.
Having little to no contact is not a substitute for Plan B. Plan B protects YOU. It takes away his power over you so you don't have to feel this way all of the time.
The difference in you now and you in Plan B makes a HUGE difference psychologically.
You are removed from the drama. The WS cannot play sick little mind games with you. You should seriously consider B for your sanity.
When you take away the fact that he can contact you anytime he wants to it makes a big difference there as well. He no longer has that choice. You are in control. And after about three weeks you feel SO much better you can hardly believe it! And it gets even better as time goes on.
Meanwhile, in the pig sty, where the pigs roll in the mud and rut all day, the bloom starts to fall off of the rose. WS starts to realize his terrible error. But he can't do anything about it until he meets the conditions of your PBL.
Think about it.
Charlotte
Only you know what you can tolerate. But I will tell you that it will make the OW furious if he is spending lots of time working at your home, and going to Disneyland. It really makes them insecure.
Doing a "little bit" of Plan B is worse than no Plan B at all. Either or. You gotta either be in Plan A or in Plan B, not switching back and forth. Being mostly no contact except for every now nd then just keeps the fantasy alive and prolongs your agony.
For some reason he still feels the need to contact you every now and then. Whether it's to feel good about himself, how he's "being nice" to you, or if you're meeting some EN of his, or even just to reinforce that you're the bad guy here, (you aren't, but maybe he needs to believe you are in order to feel ok with him being with the OW; so even an argument with you feeds a need of his). In Plan B, you would remove that opportunity, forcing him to turn to the OW to meet ALL his needs and for him to face the reality of what he's doing. That is when the fantasy bubble would burst.
But before you go into Plan B, make sure you've thought it out and have a good plan. Like Neak said, you need at least a brief Plan A, so you will leave him with good memories of what life with you *could* be like. Then work on your Plan B letter, post it here and let ppl suggest how to say things. Work out the details of childcare, visits, finances; and who will be your intermediary. Plan a great last time together. Maybe this Disneyland trip could be it. Then give him the PBL and GO DARK.
Ok I think I'm going to do it.
Your right only I can decide how much to take and I can't take much more. I have been pretty much silent and not reaching out to him but its not working. He does start arguments and tells daughter 17 I annoy him although I rarely see him and conversations are minimal. Its like he hates and annoys himself so much he projects it on me. He drinks all the time and is angry all the time. Its ridiculous.
Ok so Plan tips, please?? I'm going to let him fix the car and go to Disneyland(Oct 9th next Thursday). Lord help me I am so nervous around him because he told D17 he watches me closely-why?? I didn't even make self available during July when he visited the kids at the house. Just went about my business. I get so nervous when he's around I can hardly look at him. Anyways Plan A tips- I need em. How much is too much. Lets say he comes to house and fixes car. Do I offer dinner etc?
Ok Disneyland what there? I know it sounds lame but we have been apart for 5 months and the only time he did come around he was critical but only in rude comments to D17.
Then Plan B. I have no idea of a plan B letter. Is there a sample? Was it in the book? I don't remember seeing it. I need an example.
Do you think its wise to use my H's brother to be the contact? He doesn't talk to them because they are not supporting him.
If it was me I would have everything smelling great (including me!) when he got there, thank him before and after fixing the car, and then offhandedly say, "You're welcome to stay for supper."
As far as Disneyland, it's a great place to be bubbly and happy since there's so much to distract you from the fact that he's turned into a BIG FAT DONKEY la la la it's a small world after all... Anyhoo, it's a good place to shine. Some light flirtatious touching, bend over in front of him a few times, lean over so he can catch a tiny naughty peek of cleavage, just some little things. Grab onto his arm a few times, and if possibe go on a few of those cute little rides where you sit in front of him between his legs.
Believer is so right - OW's hate hate hate for their pet aliens to even think about their wives and families, never mind ~gasp~ actually spending time with them! For some reason they seem to worry that their "soulmate" match won't be able to withstand a little bit of contact with the wifey-poo. Strange...
You can do this!
Do all that Neak said and dont talk about the relationship at all. Be happy happy happy and show no sadness or anger at all. Bite your tongue, but be lovely, wonderful, happy, bubbly and charming.
Then when its all over come here and vent.
Do all that Neak said and dont talk about the relationship at all. Be happy happy happy and show no sadness or anger at all. Bite your tongue, but be lovely, wonderful, happy, bubbly and charming.
Then when its all over come here and vent.
leave hickeys on his neck
BIG ONES
LOL, Ok I'm not sure how the heck I'm gonna be able to do that. He pretty much hates me. I can't figure out why. I should be the one that hates him.
How am I supposed to get close to him when we haven't hardly talked, or seen one another for the last 5 months and he can't stand me.
My sister in law thinks I'm crazy for considering it. She thinks he shouldn't have his cake and eat it too.
But ok another biggie. What if the OW never knows that he is at my house fixing my car or going to Disneyland? How is she supposed to know. I'm sure he'll lie to her too.
If you are cheerful and upbeat, maybe he will spend more time with you and the kids. You'll need to try it to see. But I also suggest a rather short Plan A so you don't lose your love for him.
Ok I did it, the Start of my 1 week of Plan A. I'm going to go into Plan B right after probably by Oct 12th my son's b-day.
Told him via text tonight he could come fix the car on Friday and do some chores around the house, mentioned I was thinking about the Disneyland thing, he seemed very surprised and excited. I'm so nervous and scared. He's going to be angry again when I go into Plan B. He says I control him now, whats he gonna say then? He thinks that when I say hey that's not ok for me I'm controlling him. I don't know where he gets that as he's living his life and I don't bother him. What ever.
It's hard to be yourself when someone is putting you under a microscope. {{Sighs}}. I've done a lot of things but being in the presence of someone who doesn't like you and has been so horrible and rage filled to you after exposure just makes it hard, but I'm gonna do it.
Ok help. Need Plan B sample letters I don't even know what they should say. Can I find it on the Marriage Builders website.
He's going to be angry again when I go into Plan B. He says I control him now, whats he gonna say then? He thinks that when I say hey that's not ok for me I'm controlling him.
Yeah, but dassn't matter. You will be in Plan B and you won't know if he is angry or not. Nor will you care.
I'll see if I can find my B letter for you to sample.
Charlotte
Found it:
Dearest Husband Jonesy,
This letter will be the hardest letter I’ve ever had to write in my life but I must write it. I am beyond sad and upset about what has become of us, our friendship and our marriage. I must write this letter to you in order to convey this message that is of utmost importance.
Ever since we met and began dating, progressing to engagement and then our wonderful marriage…our time together has been filled with an endless number of kisses, hugs, smiles, laughter and tears. “The Good, The Bad & The Ugly,” but always The Beautiful…the way we took care of each other through good times and bad and stood up for one another against every foe. I have loved every minute of life with you, our life together.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. My addiction, my health problems, including my depression, drove a wedge into our marriage. I need you to know that I NEVER intended to hurt you or push you away from me.
The pain of your relationship with Slag has been unimaginable. I would not wish this kind of pain on anyone in the world, even those who have hurt me beyond measure. Continued contact with you has the potential of destroying my love for you and I don’t want that to happen.
It is because of this that I must insist that we no longer contact each other, until you are no longer involved with Slag or anyone else. I ask that you respect my decision.
In the event of an emergency, or any necessary financial matters, please contact MelodyLane, and she will contact me. Once you have ended your relationship with Slag completely, please contact me and I will be willing to discuss restoring our friendship and marriage.
I am committed to our marriage. I believe we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have ever experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart and soul.
Your Loving Wife,
Charlotte
Hope this helps! It was working great for me until I had to break Plan B thanks to a court order (not intended to break B but to have Mr. Gray (WS) help me work on inventory). Now I'm in Plan W(hatever) and we're headed to trial. LOL!
Charlotte
Boy you move fast!
If Disneyland is coming up so soon, you need a crash course in self esteem. You need to exude confidence. You need to be comfortable in yourself, confident that you are going to be ok with or without him, knowing that you are building a terrific life for yourself... and if he's smart, he'll join you. If he ain't smart, his loss - someone else will benefit from the awesome person and wife you are about to become.
This stuff works, and this stuff rocks. For real. If he comes back or if he doesn't, you are gonna be one awesome person once we're done with ya.
You can make choices to have the life you want. You can make good choices for your life.
Do you feel it? Confidence is attractive. Nervous isn't. You don't need to be nervous around him.
Do you know what his top ENs are? Can you make a plan to meet those? Are there any changes he's asked you to make, or things he's complained about?
Here is my PBL.
My Dear Husband,
Everything I have said to you about how much I love you, and the hope I have for the restoration of our family has been true. Even with the revelations I have received, I still love you with all my heart and want for us to have a chance to repair our relationship. You have been able to see the changes I have already made in an effort to make our family stronger, and no matter what happens I have become a better person for it. Though I am not perfect (yet), I have made many improvements in the way I run the household, make time alone with you a priority, and you know very well about my new lack of inhibitions in expressing my love for you. You can help me, and together we can build a new and better marriage that will be a solid foundation for our children, and a source of joy for the two of us. We owe it to our family to try.
I told you from the beginning that I would not pressure you into a timeline to make your decision between Gargamel and me, and I am not doing that now. You may not realize what I have endured because of your decision to continue your relationship with Gargamel. Yes, I know that the difficult situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that already existed in our marriage, and that we both carry a share of the blame for that. Still, nothing is so wrong that it cannot be fixed if we both work together.
It has become too painful for me to continue to see or talk to you while you continue your relationship with Gargamel. I love you so much, but that love is being terribly damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. Thus I am separating from you in order to protect myself from further pain until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family, free from your entanglements with another woman. Again, this is not about assigning blame, or me rejecting you. I am still willing and eager to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate directly with me. You may see and talk to the children as much as you like—email Neaksis at my email address to set this up (she uses it more than I do anyway), or make arrangements through your mom. J*** can be our mutual contact for anything regarding the business.
I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way, but please remember at every moment that I would much rather rebuild our marriage. The children and I are the ones who can help you learn to be truly happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent part of you, and we have so many good memories to carry us through the hard times ahead. I look forward to the time when we can reach out and meet each other’s needs, when you decide to recommit to our marriage. The door to my heart is open to you whenever you are ready to come back. The path is simple: end all contact with Gargamel for the rest of our lives, (I will help you write the letter and send it), and then we can talk about what it will take to shape a secure future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.
I want to be your best friend again, always there when you need me. I want you to be there for me, too, and I eagerly wait for the day when that hope can become a reality.
I love you dearly,
Notso
Hey I forgot to ask you all, do I mail this PBL via postal service or send email. I have the address to their new place, dumb mistake on his part.
I thought I read somewhere sending a letter to OW letting her know my intentions to fight for the marriage.
Oh yeah when he is around for the next 12 days off and on, should I care if she calls his cell phone? I noticed on the cell phone bill when he visited the kids during July that she called and he took the calls.
Great I have access to the cell phone bill. He kept all our phones on the same plan. I really want to call every number on their and tell them the truth because I know her friends and family numbers are on their too. But guess it would be a waste of time.
Oh yeah sorry one more thing. Does it matter who I choose to be the intermediary? Does he need to like this person? Of course I don't want to choose and enemy of his but he basically doesn't like anyone right now especially church friends since he was an associate Pastor. HE mocks church stuff now.
So who should I choose?
I don't know the answers to your questions about intermediaries. I think you want to hand the PBL to him in person, but I'm not sure.
I'm a little worried that you're planning the PBL but maybe ignoring the Plan A stuff. You've got some really experienced ppl posting to you so maybe I'm wrong. I just wanna suggest that you make sure you've got a *great* *plan* for Plan A, too... Plan A isn't just being nice and it certainly isn't being a doormat. You need a plan. What ENs to meet. What LBs to get rid of. What will you do if she calls his cell. What will you do if he tries to push your buttons or pick a fight (which he might do, to reinforce how he's right to leave you).
Point well taken. Will go over the book to see what his EN are. I'm not super sure but I'm sure I can get close.
Will take tips too.
For someone who was going to do a longer Plan A, I would advise calm confrontation on the contact. For you, doing a shorty, I would advise you to ignore it. You don't have any time to waste on something that will turn out unpleasant. His day of reckoning is coming on swiftly, so you don't have to worry about him "getting away with it".
Try a reverse number lookup. You can find listed #'s and addresses on switchboard.com for free. It may be worth the $15 or so for Intelius or a similar search, since some of them give names and addresses of relatives and friends.
As to an intermediary, what is most important is that the person is able to be neutral, that is, they don't react to the drama from WH, and they don't send any of it your way. Completely calm and professional, even when provoked.
Also, I would not recommend delivering the PBL in person. Too much chance for drama. Let him read it and digest it, and be ready to ignore the attempts to break your NC.
Since you want to be really sure he gets it, maybe there is a friend who would be willing to take it to him in person. I am very much in favor of giving the OW a copy, too.
Still, whoever said you need to be focusing on your Plan A right now was right. (Bad short term memory, lol.) When you have your Plan B guns lines up it will be so hard to stop yourself from shooting them immediately. Know that the info is here waiting for you, and don't start working on your letter till you get back from Disneyland.
That will leave you time for just a few more good interactions with him once you get back from the trip.
Oh, and if she dares to call him and he takes the call in front of you, make sure she can hear you laughing and being lively. OW's hate that!
Ok gonna focus on Plan A. Yes its short plan A. So main focus of my 2 week Plan A is show him lots of love and changes right?
Since we were together since 8th grade what he said was I have only slept with you my whole life and I couldn't take it anymore.
Now he's, I think a functioning alcoholic and angry and yucky. The OW is yucky too. She has been divorced alread ahs 3 kids her 2nd kid who is 14 she had to ship off since she is in trouble with police all the time. From what I understand she is a bar whore. From Associate Pastor to cheating with a bar wh*re??
I do have his address of where him and the OW live so I don't really need to get it.
But I'm wondering if I mail a letter to her he may intercept it. BUT I do have the OW's cell phone number since we have the same cell plans and I can see everywhere he calls.
He doesn't have contact with anyone. He has cut off most of it. All our friends were from church as I said he was an associate Pastor who lost his mind.
so for obvious reasons he doesn't maintain contact with many people. He has seen our friends in July when he visited the kids here and everyone was very loving and kind to him, but it's hard he's not that man anymore.
So in this case should I give it to him in person?
And should I call the OW since I know her # and give her my intentions? If so what on earth do I say to her, other than you make me sick LOL J/K
Ok I'll post my Plan B letter FYI, and then I will also post the letter I sent OW's parents which really really pissed her off. I sent it to them as I was concerned I wouldnt be able to inform her with out Flick stopping it first. Feel free to modify it to suit you.
Lil
Dear Flick,
This is the most difficult letter that I’ve ever written in my life.
I have been doing a lot of thinking in the 3 weeks since you ‘came home’. I have finally come to some conclusions.
I still have feelings for you that range from great affection to love. This surprises me considering the amount of hurt I have felt during the last 6 months. I guess this proves to me that I did have a large love balance with you. It is because of these feelings that I still have that I have come to realise some things.
I would like to retain these good feelings and memories of you, I do not wish to grow to hate you.
So despite the fact that really I do not want to do this, the sensible part of me dictates that I have let you come home too early, too easily, and have not stood up for myself. I have allowed you to cross boundaries I shouldn’t have. I have a strong commitment to my marriage, but not at the expense of my self worth. I want to stay a joyful person.
I want you to know that I am truly sorry for my part in creating the environment that helped to make this affair possible. I pursued my career without understanding my primary responsibility as your wife. I deeply regret that I did not give you the time, attention, and affection that you desired to be happy. I hope that one day you will forgive me so we can create a new future together.
Over these last few months, I have been learning what a marriage should be and I’ve tried to show you this during the times that we’re together and I have learnt alot. It’s like a light bulb came on for me and I think I know what’s needed to make our marriage a happy, loving and supportive place to be. I have made so many changes. I believe I have shown to you that I can and am willing to make these changes. But the biggest thing I have learned is that there isn’t anybody or anything as important to me as you are. I truly believe you are the man I asked God for, and that He sent you to me. However, every time I see you or talk to you now, my heart breaks because I want so much for things to be different. I want more than you are willing to give to me right now.
I am confident that we can overcome our problems and that we can start a new life together meeting each other’s needs so that we can both be happy. Even if it involves moving away from dairying so that we can spend more time with each other, and enjoying our two wonderful girls, spending time doing new things together and with friends, making memories.
I’ve tried so hard to stay connected to you even under extremely difficult circumstances & I treasure every contact that we have. However, this situation has become too excruciating for me to endure. Knowing that you want someone else is tearing me to pieces. This is unbearable. Also I know you are still seriously grieving Fred. I want to help you with that, and be supportive; it was a very sad time for me too. I regret that we both couldn't have been of more comfort to each other
So I’m asking you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that if you decide to give our marriage a real chance, I will still love you and want to try again. The only way I can think of to do this is to end all contact with you until OW is no longer a part of our marriage and you are truly willing to work on it. This kills me because this is not what I want. I haven’t made this decision to punish you; it’s to protect my feelings for you and our chances at a real reconciliation. If I carry on like this, there will be nothing left. I almost sent you a letter similar to this after Rarotonga, but you said you wanted to come home. I should have done it anyway. These last 3 weeks have been very bittersweet.
Please do not call, e-mail, or text unless you have permanently separated from OW and have decided that you want to work on rebuilding our marriage with me. I don’t want your relationship with the girls to suffer more so I will be as flexible as possible with visitation of them, however you can’t have contact with me during pick up and drop off times. I would also like any of the regular communications between us to be handled through a mutual friend or relative of your choice, such as your mum, Nikki or Vikki D***
It is not that I don't want you in my life, I want this more than anything, but I want all of you… and I want you all to myself. Sharing you is just too painful. I hope that one day you will decide to come back so we can begin again. I want to grow old with you.
Love Lil
My name is Lildoggie , I am WH wife.
I am writing as part of a recovery plan that I am in regarding this situation. I am not writing to stir or for revenge. My other reason for writing is to help you gain a better understanding of the facts of this situation.
WH and OW appear to have started a relationship of sorts around New Year while both were employed at the X. This turned into a physical relationship around the middle of February. I was aware something was not right but had put it down to WH recently finding out about his father’s health, and the stress of waiting to see if Xwould be keeping him on as a permanent member of staff. As all marriages have up and down times, I believed it would pass.
I discovered the affair after 3 weeks of suspicion on March 9th. It came as an immense shock to me as WH was still living with myself and our children and had not indicated that he was unhappy in the marriage, just life in general. The children and I still love WH and wish him to become part of our family again. WH has indicated that if it were not for OW he would be prepared to return home and work on our issues. He did not move out from home until I discovered the relationship.
While WH has been living in city and caring for FIL, we have been in almost daily contact. He spent a long weekend here shortly after moving there, and I have had 2 one-week stays with him. We have discussed many things. I now believe we have no insurmountable problems, they can be fixed. During this time we have frequently been intimate. I need to tell you of my continuing love and desire for reconciliation with WH. When you get this letter WH, the children and I will be on a family holiday in country x
I understand that OW has bi-polar, something that can make a person emotionally and mentally fragile. I do not believe that OW and WH relationship is in OW best interests. I realise that she is a consenting adult, but I think that you would wish to see your daughter happy and settled. Unfortunately, I now find WH being sometimes untruthful to me, so it is probably both to OW and me. If he is not being entirely honest in what he tells me, I wonder what WH has told OW, or if she is now set up to be badly hurt.
My parents too, wish to see me happy. I wish to see my children happy. We have a 16-year-old daughter and an 11-year-old daughter who is mildly disabled. It breaks my heart to see them feel they need to comfort me. I also grieve to see them losing faith in their father’s love.
I am hoping that you will discuss this letter and the points and issues I have brought up with OW so she has a better understanding of what she is involved with.
I am happy to give you my contact information if there is anything you wish to discuss with me. Otherwise, I am very sorry that this letter is necessary.
PS. Keeping with openness and honesty, I will be emailing a copy of this letter to WH for his perusal after the holiday.
After sending that I also ended up needing to send a reexposure email. If you want to see that one, email me.
I had to re-expose.
Flick came home for about 3 weeks but I discovered he was still in contact with OW so I booted him out and re-exposed to everyone via e-mail as I really had had enuff by that stage.
About 2 weeks later he came home again and this time is actually really making an effort and has been NC for 10 weeks.
Wow! That's encouraging. Sometimes I think I get so focused on want H back then I think for a minute gosh its probably going to be harder when H comes home. Although in August when he moved in with her that was a huge blow. I've only(funny "only") been in this whole mess for a little over 5 months. {{sigh}}
Mine kinda did that. He told us and left. He came home 3 days later. Broke it off with her (i listened) and was home for 2 weeks. The 1st few days were great the kids and I thought we made it. But I had not found this website and book yet.
So, during the 1 weeks he started with the old behavior of getting angry and drinking heavily(withdrawal symptoms). I asked him if he went back to her he said no. By the end of the 2weeks he had yelled at the kids and I said that's it get out. After that It wasn't until I had him followed and pictures taken did he admit.
Just curious how long did the whole thing take from exposure through the final coming home to work take?
whew, lets see, salient dates would be I found out march 9th, about the A, it had started as a EA around xmas. March 13th he said he wasnt coming back to me. Moved to wellington to care for FIL in april. I found MB a couple of weeks later after being in an instinctive plan A. He came to visit, I went to visit, I was forbidden to tell OW we were had started sleeping together. FIL died and I went to funeral, we went as a family to rarotonga using tickets bought at new years and I sent the letter to OW's parents so he couldnt do anything till we got back. OW had a sh*t fit at him went he came back to the country so he came back to me but started contacting her within a week. I found out just after he went to england to see his sister and gave him the PBL, and then re-exposed via email. He came back to the country and about 3 days later begged me to take him back stating he would "do whatever it takes". She was pretty horrible I gather.
I think the whole thing lasted about 8 months and both times exposure response was about 2 weeks. My plan B was very short.....about 16 days.
I have been one of the lucky ones.
Dear all,
I am sorry for the impersonality of this email, however I was quite distressed to inform everyone the first time and I find that repetition has not made it any easier.
WH and I are once again separated.
While he has been in England he has not upheld the one concrete boundary I requested of him, he has continued to contact his affair partner. Indeed, I have discovered he never stopped contact, even when he came home.
I find myself having too much self-respect to be dragged into another intolerable situation, and so have requested that until he can completely separate himself from her, that he removes himself from his family. The girls are already hurt and confused by his behaviour, they do not need to be exposed to more.
I am still willing to reconcile and work on our issues, but it would appear he would rather fix the relationship with her. I feel that I have worked hard to get us to this point and am disappointed by this outcome.
Again, I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I would like to thank all those who have supported me with prayers and a friendly shoulder.
Love Lil
So main focus of my 2 week Plan A is show him lots of love and changes right?
Yes... but not in a doormat or smothering way. Show him how awesome and confident you are. And you have to show him love in the way he will hear it.
For most men, Admiration is a big EN. lil did a great Ad. program. Also, make sure you look terrific, you are cheerful (even if you have to chew the inside of your cheek!) and the kids are neat and clean and well-mannered... or whatever he values.
Another huge EN is RC. Yay Disneyland, here you come!
Do you know about the 5 Love Languages? That's also a useful way of looking at it. If he gives and receives love through Acts of Service, but you're trying to show him love by gifts, then you aren't achieving your goal.
If his biggest complaint was that he needed variety in his women...
what would you think of something drastic like a new hairstyle, maybe even color?
Since he isn't around 24/7 be sure to build a support group. Not just for crying, but also for fun socializing. Be able to say things like "The other day Sally and I went bowling and she said ..." or something, KWIM? Have interesting things to say; these often come from having talked to different kinds of ppl. If he's interested in current events watch the news; sports, watch ESPN. And so on.
So he's gone crazy now. What did he like about you, what did he fall in love with, back when he was sober and sane?
Plan something to say if he tries to bait you. A saying that I never can remember in the heat of the moment is, when someone is being a complete poopiehead but you are too much of a lady to get down in the poopie with them, is to say, "Bless yer heart!" very graciously, with a smile (not sarcasm), very generous and kind expression; it's satisfying enough just to know that it's code for "You're being a poopiehead" to all genteel ladies. The person you're saying it to doesn't need to know that.
Hi Jayne
*waves*
T2L you havent yet said what you think are his main En's, so going by HNHN guys 'normally' want SF, RC, AD, DS, PA.
SF could be covered by Neaks clevage suggestion, short skirt and bending over in front of him or even school bus's smiling and leg stroking thing LOL.
RC, well disney would cover that. AD, tell him how wondeful and clever he is at fixing your car, and anything you can find to praise up, even historical AD works, WH's very rarely notice the difference between historical and current AD. DS, kids and house to be showen at their best whenever he's there. PA..look like a Goddess!!! smell nice, wear your sexy-ist stuff, be attractive in your head as well as your body.
The flip side is stop any and all love busting behavuiour. No AO, DJ, SD, D, IB or AH
You guys rock! Ok I read the SAA and I have the book His needs her needs. Should I read through that?
He comes Saturday to do that car work. I'm not sure if it'll be awkward for me to get super close physically as he has been so angry and stuff. You think he'll be on to the plan??
I want to call the OW and tell her instead of a letter because he may check the mail and intercept it. I would like to also include that he went with us to Disneyland because he may tell her he'll be gone for a work trip. I did read in SAA last night that the cases in the book did notify the OW/OM of his/her intentions to wait for marriage.
OY YEAH he said he may be there Saturday late working on the car. This is a huge one, do I let him stay the night on the couch? I'm not ok with sexual contact yet as I had to get checked for STD's when this was exposed to me(wasn't that nice of him) and this woman is as I said before a bar Wh*re and God only knows what she is like and I have children. But do I let him stay?
He said that I didn't listen which may have some truth but he was one of those guys that you cannot agree to disagree. I had to agree with him and not have my own thoughts. I think it hurt his self esteem for me to have my own thoughts. I think self esteem is a big one for his because he would always make me feel dumb.
You guys are my street team! Hooray! So unload....I'm gonna be ready when Saturday comes!
Why do you need to contact the OW? Did I miss something? Personally, I would leave her out of it. A marriage is between husband and wife only. He's already invited her in. IMO, contacting her would be equivalent to accepting her presence there. Of course I could be wrong, but that's my take.
Count me as another vote to move into Plan B asap. You've been in limbo way to long. I guess because of the upcoming b'day if you can handle Plan Aing a little more it could be worthwhile. But I'd be concerned that your WH has already become accustomed to cake eating.
You think he's cake eating? I hardly have had any contact with him except via email and maybe 1 or 2 times for a whole month. And when he visited the kids at home in July I was gone or not available. So I don't know how many needs I could have met over the last 5 months.
I'm hoping to be in Plan B by 2 weeks. HE seems glad to come do the things at the house since I have not allowed him to help me at all since he left in May.
He also seems very excited and surprised I am considering the Disneyland trip on Thursday next week.
I think he's getting some sort of kick out of taking care of your car. Probably some sort of ego boost. My Wstbx actually bragged about how "well off financially" he left me. Didn't say a thing about robbing me blind first. Even his brother, who had just had his D-day on his WW 2 months prior to this and was at the beginning of the roller coaster - actually bought that crap. Wstbx stopped by several times for months to do little chores - like clean the gutters and general stuff. He was also casing my place to see if I'd left anything unlocked so he could steal it, but that's not what he told people.
So yes, I believe your WH is cake eating. He's getting his SF from OW all the while believe he's taking great care of you. What a hero! Believe me, that's what he thinks he is.
Edited to add, he's getting the same ego boost out of disneyland. What a great ex he must be to take such good care of his former family he even takes them to disney.
I see. I do think he does think that way but I have not done a Plan A. I think he has the need to be a hero.
I basically have not let come over, don't talk on the phone and email only if I have to so I haven't been meeting to many needs for him.
So I figure go into Plan A for 2 weeks then straight into the Plan B.
Have you been able to read some of the advise at the beginning of the post? Some seem to suggest it's not so much cake-eating and many suggest a very short Plan A is necessary.
Since the B'day and disney are around the corner, you might as well go for it. But don't drag it out a minute longer. Get your plan down on paper. Use a calendar. Know exactly when you are going to do what. Then stick to it.
Yes he's cake-eating. But she hasn't yet done a Plan A, she's been basically doing an almost Plan B which is worse than Plan A or Plan B. that is what has allowed the cake-eating.
If you really want to save the M you must get some Plan A in there before going to Plan B. Disneyland is perfect.
Time is so short, if you have time to read HNHN great, but if not you can find everything you need here online by following the links under Basic Concepts. Here's the order that you want to do things:
1- Eliminate all LBs. To help you figure out what LBs you commit, read the LB section and fill out the LBQ as you think he would do it.
2- Meet whatever ENs you can. Again, you can read the EN section and take the ENQ as if you are him.
3- Think about anything else he may have complained about or asked you to do, that you may have missed in the LBQ and ENQ. Figure out how to make those changes.
4- Come here for ideas and a plan for doing steps 1-3.
5- Plan an awesome awesome last encounter with him. That would prolly be Disneyland, but if you could arrange some one-on-one time, like an intimate dinner, that would be great. This is going to be the last interaction you have with him, so make it good. When he doesn't have access to talking to you at all, that is going to be the freshest memory he has; that is going to be compared to the OW when suddenly he's turning to her to get all his ENs met.
6- Plan your PB details and write your PBL.
?- You may want to consider exposing the affair somewhere in that list. With such a short timeframe, I dunno, ask the pros.
You want to get through steps 1-4 at least, before your next encounter - Saturday?
If he's willing to stay on the couch Sat nite, then yes yes yes let him stay.
I'm hoping you have the opportunity for at least one or two more good interactions once you get back from Disneyland, during the last couple days of your miniPlanA.
Regarding the OW, I strongly recommend a letter if you can figure out any way at all to get it into her hands. Is there anyone at all who would take it to her, maybe at a time your WH is with you so you KNOW he's not there? A phone call is over so quickly, has the potential to be explosive, and will be very upsetting for you. A letter is more impersonal for you because you can work on it here and sound very calm, and since she has it in writing she can read it over and over until every word burns into her brain.
WH would need to get his letter before seeing her, so there would be some technical details to work out, but it's so important to let OW know that just because you have implemented NC with WH, you have by no means given up. It freaks OW's out to think of you there, just waiting for them to screw up. And yes, I would mention Disneyland, but in an offhanded way. "Last week when WH went to Disneyland with me, I realized all over again how much I love him. I am not giving up on our marriage. Your tawdry affair is going to fail, and when it does I'll be right here." Or something like that. A copy of the PBL is great, too.
Hey Neak, why do you recommend sending a letter to OW? Is this part of the MB way? I just don't see how it would be in any way helful.
I received most excellent advice to do so.
Mail it or hand it to him. Make sure it's a paper version and not e-mailed. Of course, keep several copies for yourself. See the advice in SAA about sending a copy to the OP. Something I should have done but didn't was to send copies to my in-laws.
(WAT)
I agree with WAT about letting the OW know about PLAN B.
I didn't send her a copy of my PLAN B letter because I made it very personal about things in our past that I did not want her to necessarily know about. It made our R special from his R with her. I did simply let her know in a couple of brief telephone messages that I loved my H and was removing myself from the situation because of that. "I just want to let you know that I love MY HUSBAND", CLICK.....
I've learned that it was a big bother to her. She tried to convince him that I didn't love him like she did. The PBL was his evidence that this was not true!! It was a road map showing him what he had to do to come find his way back to me.
(Mimi)
Maybe somebody knows offhand where to find the quote from SAA. If not, I'll look for it when I get a chance.
The only other contact the insignificant and unimportant OP should get is the NC letter.
For the two weeks that you're going to remain in Plan A--
1. NO EXPECTATIONS!
Also, Pep's famous "Carrot and the Stick of Plan A"
The carrot of Plan A
Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
Stop lovebusting behaviors.
Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.
Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.
Offering forgiveness and understanding.
The stick of Plan A
Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.
Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.
Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.
Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.
Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.
Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.
Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.
Be COMPLETELY ready for Plan B before you jump into it. Have everything thought out and written down, so all you have to do is pull the trigger.
Hey Neak, why do you recommend sending a letter to OW? Is this part of the MB way? I just don't see how it would be in any way helful.
Hi Tabby,
I was recommended to do this but I ended up doing it via OW's parents as I didnt have anyway to contact her.
It worked beutifully. OW went off her rocker at (then) WH and he came home within 24 hours. Granted it ended up being a false recovery but it did give me 3 weeks to do a brilliant plan A so when he went back to her it was very short lived, I was way better by comparison.
I agree with WAT about letting the OW know about PLAN B.
I didn't send her a copy of my PLAN B letter because I made it very personal about things in our past that I did not want her to necessarily know about. It made our R special from his R with her. I did simply let her know in a couple of brief telephone messages that I loved my H and was removing myself from the situation because of that. "I just want to let you know that I love MY HUSBAND", CLICK.....
I've learned that it was a big bother to her. She tried to convince him that I didn't love him like she did. The PBL was his evidence that this was not true!! It was a road map showing him what he had to do to come find his way back to me.
(Mimi)
So Mimi called the OW? Sounds easier than finding someone to stake out when she would be home and giving the letter to her and being sure my H isn't there since they live together.
finding someone to stake out when she would be home and giving the letter to her and being sure my H isn't there since they live together.
Does she work? You could sent it there.
I'm not sure if she works, I'm assuming yes. But she was a co-worker at the same company my H worked at back in February, but she quit, then I found out in April.
So I really have no clue to where she works. I know my H isn't going to tell me that's for sure.
I do have there physical address, but like I said it sure would be hard for everything to line up...H gone her home etc.
That's why I thought calling would be ok, I could possibly block my number and wait til she lets it go to voice mail. I don't know.
A message she could listen to over and over would be a good second choice.
However, before you give up entirely, look at the numbers your WH has called during business hours. There is a chance he may have called her at work a few times, though probably not much.
If you are going to call, have a short script ready. You want to be smooth and confident.
So either way what should this letter or call to the lovely OW include in it?
Another idea is assuming he works, getting it delievered to her while he is out. Shame you don't have her email addy or something
Well I might be able to con her ex fiance(yes she was engaged). But I haven't talked to him since I exposed to him back in April. I don't know how he feels about her so I'm not sure he would go for it or if he feels loyalty to her at all.
Hi lil! *wave*
OW went off her rocker at (then) WH and he came home within 24 hours. Granted it ended up being a false recovery but it did give me 3 weeks to do a brilliant plan A so when he went back to her it was very short lived, I was way better by comparison.
As painful as the false recovery was, I think the second chance to do a good Plan A greatly improved your odds.
I like what neak, pep and lil are saying. That carrot and stick stuff is really good stuff.
Why don't you just sent it cerified with a return receipt with the "for addressee only" box checked?
Did someone mention this already? I'm behind.
I mean, it's the same one you are giving him, ain't it? I was under the impression that that's what we were supposed to do, just send the Slag-like women a copy of the PBL that we gave to WHs.
I never gave Slag a copy of my PBL. I can't remember why at the moment.
Charlotte
He may be watching you closely for your responses...maybe he isn't sure he CAN come home, he's not sure where he stands with you ultimately. I would really Plan A to the best of my ability for a short time anyway and then go to Plan B. They're right, "little contact" is not a substitute for Plan B. He needs to know when it happens that it's YOUR terms what it'd be like if he didn't have you. I can imagine OW will not be happy with his spending time with you and that could be when things begin to unravel for them. Have a great time (try to appear that way) and then go to Plan B afterwards.
Well I could have it to where only she can pick it up but I only know here 1st name.
Well I'm hoping that she get's mad at him spending time with us, BUT and thats a Big BUT, what if he tells her he has to be gone for business and she never finds out about it?
That's where it would be great to put it in a letter to her, my intentions. Kinda like, "OW after spending all of Thursday with my H it made me realize how much I love him and am by no means done with my marriage blah blah blah"
Dang!!
Well, just knock on her door and staple it to her forehead. That'll get the point across. TWO of them, as a matter of fact.
Charlotte
knock on her door and staple it to her forehead
OMG!!
and do tell her your spending time together T2L. Would you like to see the response OW gave me when she got my letter?
I included a brief cover to OW with the PBL. It may not apply, but I'll post it anyway as a springboard for ideas.
Gargamel,
I don't expect any reply to this, this is just an
informational notice to you. Last night I left the
following letter for Jack after he got done with you.
[insert copy of PBL]
I know about the motels, the sex, and the many
lies he has told to hide his ongoing relationship with
you, and so I would continue making love to him. In
spite of all this, I love my husband and remain
committed to him. Whenever he is ready to be committed
to me, too, I will be right here waiting for him.
Giving him that letter was the hardest thing I've ever
done, but it was the right thing to do, and whether he
ever comes back or not, I've already won.
I don't want you to have to suffer any heartbreak,
though anyone in your situation will anyway, and I am
not angry with you. I continue to pray for you every
day and wish you all the best.
Neak
Ok, so I coulda done much better now, but it all comes with experience. Too bad it was wasted in a way, since by the time she got this he had dumped her flat.
Even though there was a false recovery, there was never any doubt from that point on who he would ultimately pick.
It is my firm opinion that a clarion call of victory just at the moment they think they've won sends shivers up and down an OW's spine. From that moment on, they never rest easy again. Their suddenly magnified insecurities lead them to love-bust all over the place. The Affair Implosion Clock starts ticking down.
Mwaaaaahaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa.
T2L, get some intel on this woman asap! With what information you already have, you can find her for sure.
Are they staying at her place? That would make it extra easy.
Heck yeah I wanna see her response!
Yes they got an apartment together.
HE made the mistake of changing the cell phone bill and my cell phone lets me know when changes are made to the account-so I got the address. I think it may be in her name but I am not for sure. But an address I do have.
Ok whether or not ya believe this or not its worth mentioning. In fact I would love to include it in her letter.
So my husband has always been a dreamer(at night when he sleeps). Well oddly enough, he has had many dreams that actually came true. We like to think its a gift from God. He even has a book that he writes them all in.
Well well my friends guess what dream he had before he left?? Dare I say?? He says, "I had a dream that I saw OW walking away with another man and I was devastated because I didn't have her or you".
So I say "wow, that was kind of God to show you your future because what starts in deception will surely end in deception. I sure hope you know what your doing....."
Anyways would LOVE LOVE LOVE to tell her his dream in my letter.
ew ew ew ew ew ew
she sent it via bebo and I still ahve it on my page. anyway she has put a profile pic up and i just saw it while copying the message
anyway....
Hey Lil - i think there a two 'minor' details that your husband has forgotten to mention to you. The first is this - i am not in love with Flick, never have been never will be and second is this - i will never be faithfull to him (and yes, he knows all of this) so please dont think im going to get all upset and hurt at the thought of him sleeping with you or anyone else for that matter. I only have one rule for him - that is dont sleep with UGLY chicks. Look i even give you my luv for today just to show you that i do not believe we are a threat to each other. If he wants you he is free to come get you :-)
Ewe! Yeah right she just lost and she's being a poor sport. Hee Hee that's great!
So I sent H an email today, nice and light about a WHOLE BUNCH of stuff that I could use fixin since he's been gone. A whole days worth of stuff. He said please let me do the car, I know its hard for you to let me help you, ok. Well actually I never had problem with asking for help, I just haven't wanted to be around him because he's been taken over by the aliens.
So anyways house work will be either Friday or Saturday 3 days and counting....
Then I said so I've been doing some soul searching and I think it would fine for you to come with us to Disneyland. I just want to have a really good time and enjoy the kids.
I need to find out his emotional needs. I thought someone suggest to fill out the back of the book like he was doing it, is that correct?
That sounds like an excellent start to your new and improved Plan A. Well done!
I need to find out his emotional needs. I thought someone suggest to fill out the back of the book like he was doing it, is that correct?
Absolutely. Your been his wife for a while so you should have some idea of how he thinks...well when he hasnt got his head up his [censored] that is :RollieEyes:
So my mentors, what if his highest need is SEX??? Then what?
In the past I never denied sex but wasn't the best at initiating. So anyways what would I do then?
I don't know if he's only slept with her and know nothing about OW sexual history and I'm sorry but I wanna be alive for my kids.
So my mentors, what if his highest need is SEX??? Then what?
In the past I never denied sex but wasn't the best at initiating. So anyways what would I do then?
I don't know if he's only slept with her and know nothing about OW sexual history and I'm sorry but I wanna be alive for my kids.
sexy - yes!
not intercourse
He forfeited the keys to your front door and must not be allowed to play hide the salami with you you until he's king of the castle once more.
Tell him "I want to have all kinds of sex with my husband. Let me know when my husband returns to the marriage."
LOL, Pep - I remember you advising me to say that, and it really made my WH pay attention!
That's hilarious! Good stuff. Will do! And thanks!
Hey Trying, since you are full steam ahead on Plan A, and WH is coming over to fix your car anyway, AND there's a darn good possibility that he's got a hero-complex at or near the top of his EN list, AND you have other stuff needing done on the house....
Well, you get my drift
Yes I'm pretty sure he does have a hero complex. in fact this OW has kinda a problem life it seems with her kids. He "affair downed". She is nothing like me from what I've been told by mutual friends of ours.
She loves bars and partying, I like dinner and a glass of wine or dancing. I consider myself classy. I think It started as an EA as he would call into the office to schedule his appointment and they extended their conversations. I think he probably tried to help her with her problems. Of course this is all here say.
Of course this is all here say
and yet still oddly typical of WS's.
Sex without intercourse....can you picture tight tops, short skirts, high heels, hair flowing loosly, subtle makeup....
Guys are visual you know
Yep yep yep...
That email was great, about all the things that need fixing. Good job. Be sure to give him plenty of strokes and admire him lots... too bad it isn't the middle of summer, so while he works on the car you could bring him a cold beer wearing tight shorts and a wet t-shirt... (*you* wearing tight shorts etc., not the beer)
Admire him while he's working. Look your very sexiest. Does he have a favorite outfit or hairstyle or anything?
Schoolbus has a great post about how to make a man feel manly by doing things like gently touch his arm and feel his bicep; put your hand against his hand comparing how much bigger his hand is; etc.
Hey, I remember in grad school, a friend of mine really liked this guy so she asked him to come fix things at her house. One thing that needed fixin was her sink was clogged. Turns out her toothbrush had gone down the drain! (It was old-fashioned and used a rubber stopper, not a metal doohickey.) I never thought she did that on purpose but hey, it's an idea!
How you doing on the self esteem bit? You feeling more secure, that you'll be ok no matter what, and if he's smart he'll realize how lucky he is to have you?
Ok Ya'll! Update a mundo. So kids haven't had much contact with H because the alien that took over his body. They chose to cut him off a few times because they were so hurt when he came and revealed to us.
Told D17 that I have a plan. This is my plan and she says mom this is great! Told her that OW hate sharing family time. so she decided to start calling dad.
She calls tonight, both kids talk D17 and S9. They talk about Disneyland and coming over on Friday. H mentions to D17 that he may need somewhere to stay so he doesn't have to drive Friday to make son's morning Saturday game(he lives an hour away(we do have mutual friends out here). Daughter tells him mom says if you wanna stay on the couch she said its fine. Can you say STUMPED? He says to D17 what? Really? Hmmm. ok well I'll have to think about that.
Let's the Plan A begins folks. Not sure if he'll take up the offer or not but it's out there.
Thats beautiful! Keep it up, your doing great.
And yes your kids will love Plan A. They see mum fighting for something they also want and they get right into it. Heck, my girls Plan A'd once they understood.
I love your DD getting into the spirit of it all and phoning. Bet that bends OW's noodle good
Not to mention he will think about them and talk about them and you know what... she has no conection with them, to share with him.
And if he stays its another thing to add to your "i love my hubby..." letter.
I've read other books in addition to SAA. Dr. Dobsons love must be tough and Divorce Remedy which are both good and similar in small ways. But for the 1st time in many month I feel like I have a plan. I know it can go either way, but I feel like I didn't make any fast decisions and I gave it my best.
I am nervous about Plan B, but I have cut off before so I should be good. I guess its just the possibility that it may not snap him out of it. But for now It feels really good to have a plan.
Jayne's post reminded me of this so I went looking for you.
Schoolbus knows this stuff because she has a degree in it.
Anyway, the issue of when you smile with or without teeth is specific to the context - so I could only advise it related to what you were doing and what you wanted the outcome to be. I have a thread for people who are trying to get the WS interested again, using body language to woo them back.
Check it out, I will bump it again.
If you are thinking along the seduction lines, there are differing schools of thought on the teeth issue. They can be very sexy if used to gently bite a soft fruit, yes.
For other purposes, to seduce from a longer distance, a playful lick across lips is better, but not so much across teeth, unless you know the specific sexual tastes of the intended partner.
See, it really makes a difference, and you'd have to ask me what to do in a specific context, and what you want the outcome to be.
Teeth in body language are really interesting - could write a book on it.
But, generally speaking, if you want him to get a message that you are interested, and you love him, to draw him closer:
Touch your face or neck softly
Smile softly without teeth - why? This tends to keep your EYES SOFTER!!!!! and reduces the chance of a miscommunication of overassertiveness or aggression by a show of teeth.
Palms open - avoid fists (you will, however, tend to fisting if you are overly nervous). If you are nervous, instead of making a fist, move your hand to gently stroke your forearm, neck, upper arm, or shoulder instead.
If you play with your hair too much, it can be too obvious. Move your hair back gently a few times - especially with an open palm toward him, that is less obvious.
If seated, reach down and rub the BACK of your calf - again, this gives the open palm toward him.
Long, slow strokes when you do this, too.
Works.
SB
Great thanks need all I can get this week.
Another thing that may be helpful. I forget who originally posted (sorry, if the person reads here, pelase know it wasnt intentional) but I copied it when i was in PB.
These are my suggestions:
DO A GREAT PLAN A: Steve H. called it MY PLAN. I tried to figure out what ENs that I was not addressing in my marriage. I worked on these problems. Making these changes was mainly good for me as a person but it also has been an essential ingredient in my marriage today. These changes have become a part of me so that now that my H is back it is not forced. It is natural for me to go to the gym, watch what I eat, cook dinner for the family, consider his point of view, give him attention, etc. These are some of the things that I was not doing prior to D-Day. Of course, I am not perfect. The fact that I am doing enough of these things compensates for my weak points. What I have not been able to accomplish continues to be our primary marital problems. The point is WORK ON YOUR PLAN.
ACCEPT THAT YOU WILL PROBABLY NEED TO GO TO PLAN B: Folks on here told me this but I did not want to believe it. For my H, the A was too addictive for PLAN A to be enough. But true to the Harley text, he has told me PLAN A caused him to think about me a lot while he was with her. Even if he did not want to, he remembered the me that I was during my PLAN A.
THE MORE TIME WS SPENDS WITH THE OP, THE BETTER: This is what I'm repeatedly hearing from FWS. Prior to PLAN B, they mainly met on the the weekends, maintaining the fantasy. When I was out of the picture, he really got to know her. Luckily in my case, she seems to be a nutty, alcoholic. He can't find too many good things to say about her as a real person. She was lots of fun but day-to-day she was not able to do the job of wifey that he needs to make it. Add my SF, physical attractiveness, domestic stuff during PLAN A, he's in love with me again. She's not meeting any needs. He's left addicted to her, hoping and wishing for the drug to take effect again. Let me know if I'm not making this clear because it is an important point.
WS DOES NEED A ROAD MAP BACK HOME (as suggested by Espoir and MM): This is the transition piece that we have been talking about in my thread towards the end of the A. My WS stated that he wanted to end the A, come home months ago but needed to feel that there was a way out FOR HIM . If there was not a way out, he thinks he would have given up and just stayed in his mess. I would imagine that the WAY OUT will look different for different people. For him, he wanted a nice place to stay. A refuge continues to be important to him. Also, he is very proudful and needed to be sure that he would not be humiliated by me, my family or the kids. This all can be spelled out specifically in one or more PB letters. I wrote a couple of letters, I think. My FWS referred back to those. Also, I opened up lines of communication in the end regarding my terms for reconciliation.
HANGING IN THERE WILL MAKE YOU A BETTER PERSON: Regardless of the outcome of this for me, I am happier with myself. It's unbelievable to me that I am saying this. I am a stronger, more self-confident person. So even if my H goes back to the OW, God forbid, I now will not take it as a rejection of me. I know that I did everything I could possibly do to save my marriage. Now it's on him. If he leaves, it will be his loss. He knows this about me now and has grown to respect me.
These are my thoughts for now. Hope this helps somebody.
I just did the Emotional Needs Questionnaire at the back of HNHN. I answered all of them as if I was him.
It was a little hard because after the alien invasion he changed a a whole lot so I tried to answer it from the mindset of before he left and I found out.
I hope I got as close as I could, it was harder than I thought it would be. Well I know for sure he has no need for Honesty and Openness.
I did fair in providing these needs, lacked in a few areas. Sexually could have iniated more. Admiration could have been more, used to do sweet stuff all the time just slacked a little over the last few years. Conversation. Not sure what to think about that one, he says that I didn't listen to him. But what do you do when your spouse thinks that unless you agree with him your not conversating? He didn't like agreeing to disagree and for some reason if I had my own thoughts on things it was like it would hit him almost in a self esteem area or he'd take it personal. I don't know, I think as a couple you can still be in love but have your own identities and thoughts. Maybe I'm wrong. Domestic support he loved, I did pretty good running the house. Attractiveness i do well at too. But the OW is not a class lady, but a trashy party icky thing and she's fat. I wonder if it's mid life crisis sometimes. He's really into tanning now. He said Affair wasn't a look thing so I didn't quite know how to answer the questionnaire because pre Affair he was not into heavy set women and made fun of it.
Starting with the top need and descending in order of importance.
#1 Sexual Fulfillment
#2 Admiration
#3 Conversation
#4 Domestic Support
#5 Attractiveness of Spouse
#6 Recreational Companionship
#7 Affection
#8 Financial Support
#9 Family commitment
#10 Honesty And Openness
Feedback??
Loved that thanks for sharing it. Send what ever you like I'm gonna inhale everything the next few days.
I bumped Schoolbus's thread for you, the last posting by her actually talks about C between spouses. the first few are on body language.
I was wondering. I think my H affair started as an Emotional affair that went to physical. Does that make it harder to reconcile?
My guess is that since she was a coworker, he would call into the office and schedule appointments and the conversations went longer and longer. I think her life was a mess as is she and he tried to help her. When he 1st came 3 days after telling the kids and I he said that he felt bad and responsible and that she didn't anymore in her life(yeah as if me and the kids did). Of course I had to ask him to leave after 2 week because he went angry again and was screaming at the kids-found out later he had gone back to her.
He said to me after notifying me of the A that he couldn't break it off that he had a connection with her. I then said well you have a connection with me. He says I let that go and you know I have a hard time connecting and bonding with people and I bonded with her.
Just wondering if affairs that started out emotional that went to physical can recover too.
Admiration could have been more, used to do sweet stuff all the time just slacked a little over the last few years.
You have TONS of opportunity to fill his need for admiration while he's around this weekend. Admire the job he's done, admire how much better X looks since he cleaned it up, how much nicer Y works since he repaired it, how much you've been worrying about Z and what a relief it is that he's taken care of it. I think this type of admiration is important to him or he wouldn't be wanting to come over and work around the house.
Conversation. Not sure what to think about that one, he says that I didn't listen to him. But what do you do when your spouse thinks that unless you agree with him your not conversating? He didn't like agreeing to disagree and for some reason if I had my own thoughts on things it was like it would hit him almost in a self esteem area or he'd take it personal.
You've said twice (at least) that you can't converse with him because every time you fail to agree with him he takes it personally. This is very important because you listed conversation as one of his top ENs. You absolutely have to find a way to meet that EN because it's so high on his list.
The way he takes disagreements personally is almost certainly due to the way in which you are disagreeing with him. Read up on Love Busters and think very carefully about how you disagree with him. Do you engage in Disrespectful Judgments? That is, does the way in which you disagree leave ANY possibility that he thinks you're finding him lacking, stupid, incompetent? I'm betting you can change the way in which you disagree so that it doesn't affect him so negatively. Give us some examples and we can give you ideas on new ways to approach disagreements.
It is imperative that during your time together you meet his top ENs *and* eliminate all Love Busters. Someone said that trying to meet ENs while LBing is like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it. You work and work and work at the ENs but one little LB undoes it ALL.
Point well taken very good I will look at the love busters to see where I can improve. Thanks for the great information.
I just read over Disrespectful judgments and feel this is the highest area I need to work on. I am definitely nervous at really any communications as he has a critical side to him and told daughter he is watching me very closely(as I f I didn't have nervous tendencies before).
I'm not even sure how to go about it or if we'll even have any time to converse when he is here on Friday as he'll be doing household chores. When he's working he does not like to be bothered. Disneyland is probably going to be the best place.
I'm not even sure of what to talk about as we have hardly had any talk's for 5 months, well at least none that was worth noting. Mostly his rage filled emails blaming for everything under the sun. I have given him apologies as best I could but it did not stop the angry emails, I'm guessing mostly since he's drinking now.
So strange how you can be married to your 8th grade boyfriend and be together for so long and now its awkward and I have no clue what to talk about as our lives are on different tracks. At almost 40 now he has started smoking, drinks heavily to kill the guilt(is what he said) goes to bars and clubs. I am full time mom of 2, football mom who spends a good deal of time at the field and games, and very involved in my church in leadership capacities(which H used to be as well). What on earth are we going to talk about???
Talk about what fun you're having at Disney, what a great thing it is to see the kids so happy. Throw in some admiration.
Do you both read? Have a favorite television show? Talk about good books you've read recently that he'd like, or how you can't believe some character did something in the show.
Talk about something fun/interesting you did with a girlfriend or family member; ask him about interesting things he's done lately with the skank ho (okay maybe not that last bit).
Talk about stuff the kids are doing at school. If there are any sports activities, concerts, etc. reassure him that he'd be welcome there.
Do you have friends in the neighborhood? Catch him up on what's going on in the 'hood.
Talk about some great new food you've tried recently.
Hmm, now that I think about it, all that stuff is just to fill the gaps. Mostly, listen to him and ask him open ended questions about whatever topic he brings up. Show interest and encourage him to continue. He'll feel like his EN for conversation is being met if he's the one talking and you're attentive, encouraging, and participating in his conversation.
Oh that's great stuff. Very do-able and practical. Thanks so much. I think I'll think of several things before the trip in case it gets quiet.
We are so removed from each other I can't imagine being able to implement any affection. Do you? Or is that not good a thing to do since we haven't been near each other or in contact that much?
I just got the volunteer schedule for my son's football team. This week I'm up. Soooo, I just sent an email to H playing dumb(well actually I have no idea what to do, they are dragging this chain with 2 posts up and down the field-totally clueless to football LOL) and I say its my turn and I would LOVE (and son too) If he would do it for me. I say there is no pressure but it would be great.
If he accepts I can thank him for saving me!(He really is too because I don't know what to do.)
We are so removed from each other I can't imagine being able to implement any affection. Do you? Or is that not good a thing to do since we haven't been near each other or in contact that much?
Meeting a top EN is always a good idea.
I wouldn't waste too many cycles on this because affection probably isn't very high on your H's list of ENs - you ranked it 7th when you tried to rank them for him.
If the opportunity comes up to touch his arm or shoulder and it feels natural, then do. Or touch his hair or lean your head against him. If not, no biggie. Or if you make advances and he shrinks back, don't take it personally. He's totally NOT himself right now.
GREAT move on the football chain thing. I really like that! Even if he says no, he'll remember that you invited him and that you looked up to him and admired his knowledge of sports.
Right now you're only out to meet ENs and eliminate LBs. Don't worry at all about if he reacts or how he reacts. In fact, usually waywards don't react (visibly) to Plan A at all, other than angry flare-ups because they're feeling guilty and they don't like that.
Rest assured your Plan A is showing him that you realize changes are needed and that you're willing to make those changes. Every time you meet an EN it whittles away just a little bit at his self-talk about how "She never does X, she always treats me like Z". You're ensuring that his memories and images of you are positive.
Displays of affection, if done, need to be the hit-and-run style. Make it quick and move right on, appearing as if you didn't even notice if he responded or not.
If he is affectionate, respond and pull back. Should he ask why you pulled away, grin flirtatiously (or leer, lol) and answer, "I didn't want you to think I was getting the wrong idea."
Well he can't go do the football thing because of work but I'm glad I put it out there.
If there are any absolutes for Plan A'ers feel free to unload especially I will only be in Plan A for about 2 weeks. Or anyone who did real creative or great Plan A stuff send that too.
We will only have 2 occasions to see each other before I go dark. Do you think I should try and schedule him for any other time, like a dinner invitation or do you think he will think I'm up to something.
I'm guessing at this point he thinks that I finally have caved and i am going to accept a life with the me and the OW. Cake anyone?
This is just my opinion, but since you are so limited in time and interactions, I think you should just do one, maybe two short and fun family times after Disneyland.
If you were doing a longer Plan A, then you should cram in as much couple time as possible. If you somehow had the opportunity for a 2-of-you dinner before Disneyland, I would definitely do it.
But family time with you at the center, looking good and being adorable, to me is the most important when every Plan A second counts.
I should have went into Plan A about 5 months ago in hindsight.
Do you think I should extend for an extra week instead of 2 weeks so to have just another opportunity or two to be able to schedule more time with H? Since I haven't done either plan since April when I discovered and had only just eliminated most contact with him so as to not subject myself to his lash outs.
I don't want to extend if it'll make him cake eat more but I thought maybe an extra time or 2 together would help for when I go into Plan B because all he'll have to remember is the 2 times in the next 2 weeks.
Ideas:
For Admiration, lil would text or email her WH something she admired about him, at least once a day while he was living outside the home.
If an out-and-out compliment would sound strange, you could put it as something like,
"Boy, I am having such a hard time keeping the yard looking nice! You always did such a good job. I never told you how much I admire your ability to make things look so nice."
Or something.
Also, the hit-and-run Affection, that's great.
Thanks to lil for bumping SB's thread. Read it, there's awesome stuff in there.
Great work with getting the kids involved.
Re. the problem with Conversation cus you feel he just wants you to agree: I'm glad you are looking into DJs. Those things are sneaky, I'll tell you what. Something you may think of as just stating the "truth" can be a DJ if:
- you think it's a fact but it's really an opinion, and other opinions are equally valid;
- you are right, it is a fact but you state it in a manner sending the message you think he's stupid for not seeing the obvious;
you may e right, you may not be, but you state your side and refuse to consider his side.
Ok he may be doing this too, but you still don't want to DJ or LB. If Conversation is important to him, and he feels "connected" when you guys agree, try to find some way to agree. There is probably some element of truth to his opinion, right? E.g.:
You: The sky is blue.
Him: No the sky is red.
You: Well yes, I was forgetting sunsets! You are right, sometimes the sky *is* red!
Ok that's an exaggeration but you get the idea.
One last thing: most folks are telling you to hurry to Plan B. Neak is suggesting you do one or two things after Disneyland before going to PB. I agree.
Do NOT go to Plan B until you are good and ready. Until you can't tolerate Plan A any longer, and you have a PLAN and a PBL. You DO NOT want to go back and forth between Plan A and Plan B. Once you go to PB, that's it - totally dark, nothing, nada - until and unless he meets your requirements.
Wow I miss a few days on MB and I am sooo happy to see that you have been getting some great advice.
One thing that I am not sure if anyone has said yet is that you need to make these changes real. Don't just view plan A as something you do to win your H back, look at it as a way to make changes and improvements in yourself.
Here is a way of thinking that I began in plan A and try to keep with me. Treat your H like you would a new boyfriend, you know, dress sexy, do your hair, get a mani/pedi, keep the house looking good, be happy to see him, don't talk about anything serious, don't have any expectations, just enjoy the moment!
Have fun at Disneyland. Halloween time is fun, the park is decorated so cute, oh man if I wasn't going to the Angels game tonight I would be heading for Disney!
Try not to be nervous and try not to put too much pressure on yourself. Just remember to enjoy yourself! It won't matter how close your WH looks at you, if you are really enjoying yourself he will see that.
Do you think I should extend for an extra week instead of 2 weeks so to have just another opportunity or two to be able to schedule more time with H?
YES!!!! If plan A is working, then do it more. Just remember to end it if you get to the point that you want to lask out. You might be surprised, you may actually enjoy plan A also. To say the part about him still going home to OW sucks is an understatement. But try to enjoy the moments when he is with you. Try very had not to think about OW and most importantly do not mention a single word about OW to your WH. He will only defend her and it will make you mad.
YES!!!
I missed your questions, maybe you posted while I was writing my post:
Do you think I should extend for an extra week instead of 2 weeks so to have just another opportunity or two to be able to schedule more time with H? Since I haven't done either plan since April when I discovered and had only just eliminated most contact with him so as to not subject myself to his lash outs.
I don't want to extend if it'll make him cake eat more but I thought maybe an extra time or 2 together would help for when I go into Plan B because all he'll have to remember is the 2 times in the next 2 weeks.
YES!!! If you aren't losing your love for him, and you are able to not LB, then definitely. Yes after awhile you want to not allow cake-eating; but you haven't even done Plan A yet (until now). Putting your foot down about the cake-eating won't necessarily get you your M back if you haven't done a good Plan A first.
Well I may extend then for a bit more if I can handle it. I'll see how it goes.
Should I be working out all the details of my Plan B while I'm in Plan A or just wait til I hit that moment when I can't stand it any longer. I just didn't want to get caught off guard.
I kinda figure the normal things to cover in the B are visitation and financial anything else that I should consider so I can stay dark? I have not filed anything legal as he has still somewhat been meeting the financial needs. He got a demotion during all this since his performance dropped, of course he blamed me for not being able to pay the bills. If you can think of anything besides visitation and financial let me know.
It's good to have the PB details worked out... but it's more important to be prepared to be an AWESOME WIFE and a WONDERFUL, CONFIDENT YOU and a GREAT PLAN-A-er by the next time you interact with him.
What do you think of sending him emails or texting him with Admirations?
By all means extend Plan A if you're up for it. You want him to have the most positive image of you possible, and you want to do it long enough that he believes the improvements are permanent and not just a smokescreen to trick him into coming back.
OTOH *don't* stay in Plan A when your love for him begins to fade, and don't stay in Plan A forever, letting him cake-eat. With you guys living apart and interacting so infrequently, I'd say to try for about a month IF you can stand it.
When you go to Plan B, you must be prepared to go TOTALLY dark. A bad Plan B is about the worst thing you can do. For Plan B you'll want to draft your letter, post it here, revise until you're happy with it. You'll need a mediator that understands their role is to filter out all the emotions and relay only pertinent facts between the two of you. You'll need to arrange finances and a visitation schedule. Hopefully pickup/dropoff will be at someone else's home. Your daughter is old enough to have a key and be responsible but you don't want to put her in the position of telling Dad no, he can't come in.
Disclaimer: I've never done Plan B but I've read a lot of posts from those who have done them well and those who have done them poorly.
So funny I used to do all these things. Leave cards, send him texts, call him and tell him he's the only one for me. Thank him for things.
But late last year through just before I found out I took in 3 foster kids and with my 2 kids and all there emotional issues, i think he took a back seat just a bit and that's when he started really hook in I'm guessing with girl at the office. It was only 6 months but I guess 6 months too much.
I can send him admiration, do you think it will be odd? We haven't said much to each other in the last 5 months.
For conversational purposes I did however give him an invitation to view the family website I have been building in my spare time. He said it was very nice and he can't wait to see it finished. I guess I'm just nervous he may either 1 think I'm up to something, or 2 weak or just plain stupid or reject it.
He's made statements to others not verbatim but kinda hinting around that I'm weak and stupid and when he revealed he kept telling my D17 and I that she is so strong and she loves me so much she is willing to support what ever decision I make. He's just always viewed my grace and kindness to him and to others as weak, stupid and naive. I'm tired of him viewing me this way. A week ago my daughter 17 says I don't know dad mom is just trying to live her life and move forward and he says how is she going to move forward when I pay for everything? Although he never outright said to me your stupid, many times I would say to my H, ya know I'm not stupid I happen to be intelligent.
He tells daughter I am annoying but I have no clue what he is talking about. I have many friends and many friendships that are 15 to 20 years or more. He has none really. He at times almost seems like he has attachment issues(stuff I learned through fostering). He in general is a huge pessimist. I am an Optimist. He thinks most people should be reamed and I think maybe they should have grace or be forgiven. He thinks I am naive because of my views.
Anyways I have no problem at all giving him admiration's I always enjoyed doing that and planning things and leaving cards in the car at night. I guess just nervous he may read in to it.
But the answer to your question is basically yes I can do that. Just don't want it to be corny I guess.
I can send him admiration, do you think it will be odd? We haven't said much to each other in the last 5 months.
yeah he'll think its a bit odd the first couple of times, but will get used to it fast. When I was struggling to find things to thank or apprieciate about him, Neak suggested I look to past events, as waywards dont notice much whether the Ad is historical or current. I sat down one night and wrote a list and on the days I could'nt find anything new, I took something off the history list.
As far as conversation, it depends on what he wants out of a C. Even though C is #4 for Flick, he hates waffling. I ahve to make my point in 3 sentances or less. Anyone who glances at my thread will know how hard this is for me
Some advice that was goven to me was slightly raise my pitch/tone, agree alot, slightly widen my eyes and keep a tiny little smile arouind the edges of my lips. This looks kind of adoring/amzed/wonderment...or so I was told. I practised in the mirror a few times, and I still reckon I look kinda moronic, LOL. Maybe just focus and concentrate on what he's saying and nod and u-huh a bit.
Whether or not he thinks your stupid is irrelevant, and thinking his thoughts for him is a DJ.
What he reads into your actions is also irrelevant. Just do it.
Ok I did it. I know I move fast.
Just sent an email to H, updating him on bills and Halloween costumes etc. At the end of the email i said, "By the way, I know it's been financially hard lately for everyone, just wanted to thank you for all you have provided for us financially so far. You always took great care of us that way and worked very hard. Just wanted to say thank you."
We have no legal separation agreement just been relying on him to put the money in and he has although not as much as what is needed but I think if I file I'll actually get less and have to move and the kids do not want to move.
So I need to create a list tonight gonna work on that. Thanks again everyone I really really appreciate you stopping in and helping me.
I know I ask a lot of questions, I'm one of those funny ones who thinks there are no stupid questions. But really all the help and tips I get I will take. I am willing to work hard on myself and put into practice all you give me if I can.
In all probability you will need Plan B. I figure you've got maybe 2 weeks of strong Plan A left - perhaps longer, but please don't delay Plan B to the point where you'd sooner spit on WH than reconcile with him.
I think you should begin to prepare Plan B - just don't launch.
Plan B , my suggestions Plan B can be very traumatic & painful for the WH around the holiday period .... and remember - this needs to be painful for WH if it's going to be an effective Plan B.
The better your Plan A is - the more pain you inflict with Plan B - so spread the sweetness on thick.
I am going to look at your Plan B suggestions. Going to start writing towards the PBL.
I am hoping to make it 3-4 weeks. Halloween I think would be the final for me, because I know my H and he will most definitely eat and entire cake. Plus he wants to go out with the kids that night.
I know the holidays are going to be hard for all of us but I'm ready and I know I can do this. I cut him off 90% for the last 5 months so I can do it again. It was hard but now I know I can do it. My 19 year anniversary is Dec 9th. SOOOO not looking forward to going through that.
I;ve been thinking about C, and what sort of things you could say to break the ice, or fill in the gaps when your not listening to him. A suggestion often given on MB is treat the WS like you have just met them, or just dating. I have loads of stuff filed on my computer, but I won't send it all
This is one I used while we were in rarotonga and as like most people he likes talking about himself, it seemed to be recieved well.
I was very motivated to do my best plan A and I can see that in you. I think its great the way you are willing to push yourself for this. I moaned and b*tched my way thru for ages.
10 Creative Questions To Break The Ice And Get Them Talking
1. If money were no object, what kind of car would you drive?
Very nearly everyone drives... and very nearly everyone has thought about what their "dream car" would be. This question lets you find out a little bit about them (what kind of car they like) and gets them talking. You can continue by asking why, or possibly going to what kind of car they would never buy.
Alternatives: Almost anything works here, just start with "If money were no object, what kind of blank would you get?"
2. What's the strangest thing you've seen?
Here's a chance to get them talking and laughing... and getting someone laughing is an easy way to lower their walls. This question works particularly well if you have a truly bizarre story of your own to tell.
Alternatives: Replace strangest with any other - est... it could be biggest, loudest, etc.
3. What's the best restaurant you've ever been to?
This is a good way to find out what kind of food they like, if you're thinking about asking them out at some point. It also might give you an idea of a good place to eat, whether or not it's with the person you're talking to at the moment.
Alternatives: You can substitute other things for restaurant, but most things have less general appeal, and the ones that don't are usually asked all the time. This is one where if you want to change it, you'll have to base it on the particular person you're talking to at the moment.
4. Where is the most exotic place you've ever been?
This is a chance for them to open up and tell a story... and that lowers their walls. If you've been to the same place, you've got huge bonus points... shared experiences are the fastest way to get closer to someone.
Alternatives: Most exotic can be replaced with farthest, most dangerous, etc.
5. What is the biggest event, by number of people, that you have seen in person?
Another chance for them to tell a story, and another chance for you to have similar experiences. One warning, though... don't ask questions like this and always have a bigger, better story to tell... even if you really do, it will make them feel small.
Alternatives: Replace biggest with something like most expensive.
6. What is the dumbest thing you've ever seen someone do?
People almost invariably like to tell stories aboutthe dumb things they've seen, particularly when it was someone else that did it. If you're really lucky, the person might tell you about the dumbest thing they have done... you can lead the conversation in this direction by telling them the dumbest thing you've done after they tell their story about someone else.
Alternatives: Really you can replace dumbest with nearly anything... nicest, weirdest, most spectacular, most dangerous, etc. Very little gets someone to really go off like dumbest, though.
7. What is the most expensive single item you've ever bought?
You might want to add words to exclude houses and cars, it's up to you... this question gives you an idea of what the person thinks is worth paying extra for, what is important to them. That can be amazingly valuable both to continue the conversation right then, and in any future times you meet.
Alternatives: What purchase did you regret the most is a related question that can be interesting... but it may bring up bad memories, and that's not really what you want when you're breaking the ice. You might go for the most fun purchase.
8. What is worst tasting thing you've ever eaten?
This is another thing that people usually remember quite clearly and don't mind sharing. It can even be another shared experience, if you've eaten the same thing... particularly if you also didn't like it.
Alternatives: Most delicious, hottest, most sour... any of the major factors in taste can be used.
9. What is the most vivid/realistic dream you've ever had?
This is one that can also tell you a lot, but it's also more dangerous than most on this list... not everyone is comfortable sharing their dreams If they are, though, this can get you past a lot of walls they might have, moving you pretty much straight to the "friends" level of relationship (and not in the bad way, for those seeking romantic relationships).
Alternatives: You could also ask what movie (or movie character) they most identified with... it's basically probing for a deeper opening up. If you get it, great... if you don't, they may push you farther away than when you started.
10. If you could make all of one kind of thing go away, what would it be?
What would you make go away? It can make you think of a lot of things, and things can come up and be laughed about (think mullets)... this question is very open-ended. If you get together more in the future, it can even be something that you bring up regularly, on the spur of the moment... "Okay, THAT is what I would get rid of".
Alternatives: You can do the positive (and more common) side - If you could only have one kind of blank, what would it be?
Ten examples, with alternatives... there are more than twenty questions listed above that you can use to get someone to open up and start talking. And, since they are unusual, they will make that person far more likely to remember you. After all, how many people have you told the worst food you've eaten?
Being remarkable, in the dictionary sense of being worthy of being talked about, is just about the best thing way to establish a new relationship, whether it's business, friendship, or romantic. It also helps spread your "network" as they tell the people they know about the interesting conversation they had the other day... if you happen to meet those people, they will already know who you are, which means the ice is already half-broken right from the start.
By the way, the worst food I've ever had, that I can remember, is beer cheese. Yes, I should have known... I tasted it anyway, and it was just as bad as it sounds. Maybe worse.
Funny thing was told to me tonight I have to share. So DD17 says that her and my son 9 talked to Dad tonight on the phone.
She asks him what he was doing he says laundry and that he is tired of doing laundry. YESSSSS!
I know it sounds probably silly, but for me it wasn't. I have been a stay at home wife and mom our entire relationship straight out of high school. So I know that one of his highest needs was domestic. He literally cannot rest in an messy home so I made sure everyday that the house was spotless and all his laundry and things were done. Even including his clothes shopping. I had dinner the minute he walked in the door and lunches packed everyday and packed his vitamin case weekly.
Doing the domestic thing for me was a way to be able to give because I didn't work outside the home so I took seriously my domestic and parenting duties. I felt at times that no one cared or even noticed but I loved giving in that way to my family.
Such sweet payback to hear him say that he tired of doing laundry, guess maybe the OW isn't meeting those needs?? I sure hope so because he won't last too long with that. He'll start to get really irritated if she is not cleaning up or doing domestic stuff. Well at least that's how he was here.
Anyways, good stuff, gonna sleep even better tonight... after my celebration dance
Well bummer he just told DD17 that it's not a good idea for him to sleep on the couch. I think OW is whispering in his ear.
He sounded so very surprised at the offer when DD17 mentioned it to him.
Trying not to be bummed but I guess it's good that I at least put the offer out there. DD17 is Plan A'ing by trying to talk to dad nightly and getting him to come out to visit.
The kids were upset for a while and did not want to talk to him but someone posted on here that OW hate when they spend family time so I told DD17 that. So now she's on a mission. Funny stuff. Can't believe she's so excited about this. Usually nothing excites her and she pushed me to just leave her dad and divorce him.
She thinks it may be a chance but I am mentioning to her that there are no guarantees, but that at least we know we tried tofight for the family even if he doesn't.
Well bummer he just told DD17 that it's not a good idea for him to sleep on the couch. I think OW is whispering in his ear.
I will tell you about when Flick did something similar.
Lil
Trying not to be bummed but I guess it's good that I at least put the offer out there.
He will run so hot and cold it will make your head spin. Whatever you do, DON'T gauge the impact of your actions by his responses. DON'T give what he says much weight at all. Just keep your Plan A close and stick to it. It is making an impression on him, even if he doesn't show that or even realize it himself yet.
It *is* good that you put it out there. Who cares if he took you up on it or not?
It will be the same at Disney - just keep on doing your Plan A without depending AT ALL on his responses for encouragement. Don't try a few things and then give up in despair because of his lack of response.
I'm kind of giggling to myself, thinking about how he considered your sofa invitation and how that must be eating up OW. She'll be beside herself while he's at Disney with the fam.
She *may* talk him into backing out of the Disney trip. Be prepared for that possibility and if it happens, accept it happily and graciously. "Oh, that's such a shame, the kids were REALLY looking forward to you going. It won't be the same without you at all." then change the subject like it's no big deal.
You are really good at this Plan A stuff. Just don't get your "Plan A Self Esteem" wrapped up in his reactions.
Thanks for that Disneyland heads up. Now I'll be prepared in case he does back out.
I know I'm learning to not wear my emotions on my sleeve. It's a good thing and a chance for me to grow and to not be moved by my circumstance.
Need to think of more reasons to have him come to the house. He hasn't visited the kids since July. Maybe I should get him to come do visits at the house again. I noticed on the cell phone bill in July that OW would call him on his cell during the visits and they were only 2 hours long.
I want nothing more than to drive this woman nuts! I know it shouldn't be my motive but why not have fun while I'm at it. Just burns me when I think she has seen me and the kids in passing when I would go the corporate office to pick up paycheck. She had no regard for me and my kids. EWE, what kind of woman is she??
Did ya'll see he was tired of doing his laundry-ha ha. I used to do it all since he has a VERY high domestic need. can't stand a dirty house.
Sounds like you are doing very well. Sometimes it helps to think of it as planting a garden. You prepare the soil, pull the weeds, plant the seeds and then water them. Then you just have faith that they will grow.
You don't run out an hour later to see if they have sprouted, you just continue caring for the garden.
It's good if one of his needs is domestic acts. And especially if you were a SAHM and did well in that department. Keep your home warm and welcoming in case he does come over. Try to always have some of his favorite food, and invite him to eat.
Do some fun things with your kids and take pictures and display them. My son got a cheap frame for 4 pictures, printed some pictures of us fishing and put it on the wall. It looked like much more fun than it really was!!!!
Oh you make a good point about the garden.
So I found out all this stuff on April 23, he was out of the house by May 8th. I let him spend the day with us on July 4th BUT Ok i hadn't found the SAA book yet.
I took down all the pictures of us down. He was so bothered by it. He told a few close friends that were here: So what everyone is going ot forget about me? All my pictures are down. This all happened in July.
I know probably not the best thing but I couldn't stand staring at all the pictures of us-wedding pics, vacation pics etc. It was painful. But the kids did have lots of pictures of dad in their rooms.
Should I put them all up again and add some more?? I'm not ever sure he'd notice at this point since it's been so long.
I'm hoping he's still going to come and do the chores, he told DD17 that he was trying to get things scheduled(probably around OW) we'll see.
Time is probably your best friend, especially since they are living together. Just be sure you don't LB. Be cheerful and pleasant and fun.
I would put up new pictures of you and the kids doing things he used to like to do.
You can put fresh flowers around, always have some good food, have your home sparkling clean.
And change anything that he complained about before the affair.
I know I'm learning to not wear my emotions on my sleeve. It's a good thing and a chance for me to grow and to not be moved by my circumstance.
give
this thread a look see
I would put up new pictures of you and the kids doing things he used to like to do.
The only thing wrong with this suggestion is that I did not think of it !
IT IS PERFECTION
I'd only add the following;
build a "family site" on the web
fill it with beautiful wonderful family memories
put the link to the site in your email signature
give WH (and OW) every opportunity to view how lovely you all were together as a family
include wedding photos
kids as infants
HIS parents
etc
etc
etc
I know you talked about sending OW a letter and I have been thinking about that. I think it would be a bad idea to send her a letter, she obviously doesn't care about you or your kids and sending her a letter is not going to change that. But, if you send her a letter telling her that you are fighting for your family that will only give her a heads up and she will also fight for WH.
If you don't send her a letter she will just self destruct. She will call him and complain about him spending time with you and the kids. She will probably just act like a bratty little kid who is not getting her way. While you can shine and be the sweet woman who does not give him grief about anything. If he cancels you just smile and say that you will miss him. You will show him that you are not annoyed by his action while at the same time OW will be complaining constantly.
One day my ex was at my home and we were cleaning his Harley together. The OW actually walked over and glared at us. I told him, "Look out, here comes the warden".
Pep's idea about a family web page is GREAT!!!!!
Have already started the family website. Gave him the link 2 days ago. Told him it was a work in progress as It will take me time to get 23 years worth of history on there so check back daily to see what I've added
. He said he loved it and can't wait to see it finished.
So we have 2 trains of thought everyone has been posting about contacting the other OW for my Plan B and they both makes sense. The book had a note to Greg(OM) in SAA in the PBL to Sue.
I kinda don't want to give her a heads up but would love her unravel about me waiting in the wings. Also If he does end up going to Disneyland I'm almost positive he is going to lie about it to her. I sure hope she doesn't go, I shouldn't have to mention that should I? I would hope he wouldn't do that for his son's bday(that's the reason we're going). So what do you all think let her know or don't let OW know?
Looking for new pictures to put up now....and just requested the book the Art of War. Been wanting to read it for years but now I have a reason. Thanks for that.
But, if you send her a letter telling her that you are fighting for your family that will only give her a heads up and she will also fight for WH.
This can actually cause the implosion to come sooner. OW's don't know how to fight a winning war. Their idea of fighting for their A is to clamp down harder in their insecurity. They cannot keep up the facade as long, when they are trying even harder to maintain it.
Even with nothing to the OW, the A will implode in time. But by ripping all her insecurities wide open, it can speed up the downward spiral.
If your family website will do this (great idea, BTW!), you can leave it public for now, and when you go to Plan B, limit your access to "friends" and make sure he's not on that list.
It wouldn't be unheard of for him to take the OW to Disneyland. Are you staying overnight?
Not staying overnight, live only an hour away. It's for my son's 10th Birthday day and I do not want her there. I would rather have him bow out than to ruin that for my son. My children despise this woman. Should I ask him not to bring her?
So are you saying when I go into Plan B to take away his access to the family website. Right now I have it for friends with a password.
I think I'm leaning to notifying OW, I want her to gush insecurities and to start to unravel and control. He does not like to be controlled.
Hey by the way do you think sending him emails daily about stuff, is overkill? My son wants to spend his actual b-day which is Sunday with him. But since I have emailed him for the last 3 days I don't want to over do it. And do you think I can add silly stuff. We used to quote our favorite dumb comedies to each other and laugh.
No telling about waywards, but if you are not spending the night, he probably won't invite her. I just thought she might be in the hotel room. But he will most likely lie to her about it.
Personally, I wouldn't contact her. Because then he will be afraid to spend family time, and that is what you need right now, at least for a few weeks.
Not staying overnight, live only an hour away. It's for my son's 10th Birthday day and I do not want her there. I would rather have him bow out than to ruin that for my son. My children despise this woman. Should I ask him not to bring her?
I'd wait.
I'd wait and see.
If he is so unwise as to bring his adultery partner to his child's birthday celebration I'd do the following:
With the family next you you
say to WH and OW
"This is unacceptable for to bring your
adultery partner to our child's birthday. Your invitation to be a part of this celebration is immediately revoked because of your insensitivity and poor judgment."
Then - leave him and her standing there --- it is not a debate - it is an announcement and an exit --- then go have fun and spend a pile of $$$
No I won't contact her now, but I was leaning to contacting her about my PBL and intentions to fight for my marriage and let her know it ain't over til it's over and mention that I realized how much I still love him after SPENDING THE WHOLE DAY AT DISNEYLAND WITH HIM ON THURSDAY, LOL.
This should cover if he lies to her and says he's gone on business and should breed a nice amount of distrust between them.
Ah ha, that's great you guys are the best! Yeah I'm not going to let it ruin our day. I will wait and see.
So far at the beginning of this I told him that if I file(before i found SAA) that I would ask him to not go for our son to have visits at their house. He said we don't need to file to do that, you have full custody of them now there is no need to file and I wouldn't want him around her too. But that was then and I don't put to much stock since he now has become a liar.
Update, I told DD17 that what we would do in case Dad shows up with OW at Disneyland.
She just came in my room and said she texted him(which I didn't want her to do).
She said she was nice and he responded," Yeah and her 3 kids is that ok?"
DD17 says, "i just want to be sure she doesn't get mad at you and show up since you guys lives right there."
H says,"Johnny(fake name) does what he wants and doesn't care who gets mad at him."
Weird he refers to himself in 3rd person. And I think he's full of it.
What if this thing is a Mid-Life. Is reconciliation still possible?
Ok, somebody please educate me if I'm wrong or off track here, but my advice to you would be that under no circumstances should the OW come to Disney with WH while you are there for your DS's b'day. None. Nadda. Not up for negotiation. Either he comes alone or doesn't come at all. Period.
There are 2 major reasons why I see this as wrong. (1) In his view, you are basically accepting OW and his relationship with her. Even if you switch to Plan B a few days later, he's just going to think you crazy and unstable - one day you are fine with her, the next day you aren't. I didn't get to apply MB to the stage that you are at, but I don't think there is anything in any of the plans that advises you to spend time with the OP. Not only that, part of Plan A is not enabling the A. This goes beyond enabling it and steps into endorsing it.
Reason (2) - and I've been at this one - seeing your WH and OW together is the most painful thing in the world. There really is only so much you can possibly be expected to accept without cracking. If you think it's hard to meet ENs and stop LB'ing now, try it in her presence. Honestly, this is a set up for failure of your Plan A - and by reason #1 above, will sabotage your Plan B even before you start it.
Tell him now - up front, in advance that she and her children are NOT welcome at this family event.
Again MB vets if I'm way off base on this, I'd truly like to understand why. My WstbxH and his invested a great deal of energy trying to get OWH, myself and our families to "accept" them. It was clearly very important to them.
Thanks Tabby,
Oh no way is he coming. I was advised a few posts back that if they show up tell him his invitation is revoked and walk off. That's what I informed DD17 our course of action would be and if you read my last post, doesn't look like he is going to do that.
She said she was nice and he responded," Yeah and her 3 kids is that ok?"
He's planning on bringing OW and her kids to your son's birthday celebration at Disney???
Believer's idea to replace the family pics with pics of you and the kids doing things *he* likes to do - classic! If he says anything about being "left out" you can sweetly and brightly say that there's nothing you'd love more than to have him come home and dedicate himself to the marriage, to have him be a part of the family again. Then change the subject.
Not staying overnight, live only an hour away. It's for my son's 10th Birthday day and I do not want her there. I would rather have him bow out than to ruin that for my son. My children despise this woman. Should I ask him not to bring her?
I'd wait.
I'd wait and see.
If he is so unwise as to bring his adultery partner to his child's birthday celebration I'd do the following:
With the family next you you
say to WH and OW
"This is unacceptable for to bring your
adultery partner to our child's birthday. Your invitation to be a part of this celebration is immediately revoked because of your insensitivity and poor judgment."
Then - leave him and her standing there --- it is not a debate - it is an announcement and an exit --- then go have fun and spend a pile of $$$
Pep - you nailed it on the head.I'd tell him before the party that the ow was not invited and he could not come if she was with him. Then, should he have the audacity to show up with her, I'd make the declaration that they must leave and, if necessary, I'd call security to escort them away.
I'm hoping he's not. I think he meant "yeah right and her 3 kids too" as kinda a joke but maybe I'm being naive.
Either way I'm ready and prepared.
Gonna work on Picture's today!
Oh I'm so glad I'm not the only one who sees the OW's presense as a bad thing at Disney.
Something to prepare for - my WstbxH insisted on bringing OW to my baseball games (we play in the same league). He told me I should be over it by now (this was starting 3 weeks after d-day) and that it's a public place and she has every right to be there. I told him I didn't want her there and he was cruel to bring her there. We went through this argument nearly every week - OWH would tip me off when she was going and I would counterstrike. I fended it off for a while last year, though he did bring her to a couple of games but she stayed off in the distance. I'm sure she was afraid to come down to the diamonds where I was. This year she did come right up to the diamonds but stuck to his bench and avoided me. Everyone else in the league would warn me that the "tramp" was there and at one point she complained to OWH that *I* am spreading stories about her at baseball because nobody likes her
.
Anyway, be prepared for the public place - she has a right to go if she wants excuse. If you have to use Pep's speech, make sure you have a backup plan so as not to ruin DS's b'day.
Not staying overnight, live only an hour away. It's for my son's 10th Birthday day and I do not want her there. I would rather have him bow out than to ruin that for my son. My children despise this woman. Should I ask him not to bring her?
I'd wait.
I'd wait and see.
If he is so unwise as to bring his adultery partner to his child's birthday celebration I'd do the following:
With the family next you you
say to WH and OW
"This is unacceptable for to bring your
adultery partner to our child's birthday. Your invitation to be a part of this celebration is immediately revoked because of your insensitivity and poor judgment."
Then - leave him and her standing there --- it is not a debate - it is an announcement and an exit --- then go have fun and spend a pile of $$$
Perfect advice, Pepperband!
IMO, do not even mention OW to WH ahead of time, simply be prepared to follow Pep's most excellent advice.
Mentioning her will give her too much importance.
Telling him he can't bring her will set his back up and increase his belligerence.
Assuming he is so scummy he would bring his mistress (even though he could be) will take away Admiration EN units.
It's just far better to be prepared and deal with whatever actually happens, instead of borrowing trouble. Not that I thought you were.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I would interpret his text to your daughter as a sad attempt at humor. I don't think he plans to bring her, but if he proves me wrong you know what to do.
Being older, I think there is danger that your kids will also want to get too caught up in your Plan B. You'll have to guard them against that. They don't get to Plan B him themselves, at least not if a judge gives him any custody. They also need to be sure not to pass on any info about how you're doing.
It concerns me a little to see the (understandable) enthusiasm they are entering into this with. It's great that they have hope now, and so should you, and it's sweet that they want to help. You may need to make an extra effort to have them keep their noses out of some things.
That raises a good point. Kids and Plan B.
We have no legal filings at this point. He has stated in the past that he won't make my son come around her, but you can't trust them either. So for now they are full time with me.
So what are some tips for dealing with Kids in Plan B. Also, what details beside financial and visitation should I include? I just don't want to forget anything and come out of the dark. Saw some posts where people had to come out. Don't want that to happen.
My understandings that we will communicate via out mediator for everything.
As usual, Neak has some good advice here...
Thanks, V4G.
Regarding Plan B, I really like Plan B addendums. You have the main letter, a love letter, that doesn't get bogged down in the nuts and bolts of how this is going to work. Really, nothing more than one sentence naming your intermediary. Then you have additional papers that list any needed info about children, finances, business, contact info for the intermediary, or whatever.
My new Plan A goal is to make it to Halloween, only 2 more weeks past what I first set. I actually feel better not being so upset at him although I know I have been told not to expect much and even to expect mean stuff. I'm ready to let roll off like water off a ducks back or so is my plan(Lord Jesus help me)
Via email my H just said yes to my invitation to coming with the kids and I on Halloween evening, being sure that he mentioned that he just wants to be there for son{{hint hint}}. And then he said he will also attend a very small party at our home on Sunday the 12th (sons actual birthday) with 3 of our closets church friends.
He will be here late tomorrow afternoon to do the chores and work on the car. We asked him to join us for dinner and he accepted. He said he would do half the chores tomorrow and he will come back Sunday. He asked daughter what time should he come and we said about 1 and he's welcome to join us for lunch after church before he gets here and he accepted that too. I'm Plan A'ing as hard as I can my mentors.
This is my thought, can I personally give him the letter before he leaves us on Halloween? Then while he drives home I will call OW and give her my intentions to her voice mail. I will wait until her voice mail answering machine picks up to leave a message and will not talk to her in person. What do you think?
Wow, as long as you can make it that long, it sounds great.
If you start getting tired partway through but still want to make Halloween, you may need to pull back a little. But really, that sounds very punchy. Good for you!
This is my thought, can I personally give him the letter before he leaves us on Halloween? Then while he drives home I will call OW and give her my intentions to her voice mail. I will wait until her voice mail answering machine picks up to leave a message and will not talk to her in person.
I think thats a great idea. You have a great last night with him as a family, and as he takes his leave, look at him with all your love in your eyes, say I had a wonderful evening and give him the letter. Do your OW bit and then stay completly out of contact.
That will be his last memory of you.
Once again, I'm not a vet and didn't make it this far myself. But please reread this thread from the beginning. Your WH is cake-eating and you are spoon feeding it to him. Sure, you want to get a brief Plan A in there - I understand this. But the longer this goes on, the more this is going to hurt you and the more convinced he'll be that you are supportive of his A. Plan A is supposed to be temporary. You are so far past d-day - you are torturing yourself!
I can see your point on the cake eating, but since I have had hardly no contact with him for the last 5 months and the contact I did have was lashing outs via email from him and miss communications I feel like it's necessary to me to do a short Plan A so at least when I do go dark he'll have something good to reflect back on and maybe give him a reason to want to reconcile.
If I do Plan B now, and being he re-wrote a lot of marital history and justified his butt off, he will have nothing to reflect back and have a reason for and see no changes in me either. Does that make sense. My goal is Oct. 31st. If for some reason it is too painful to go that far, then I am not opposed to bumping the Plan B up a bit.
I think your Trick or Treat surprise plan is rockin'
Oh great I'm feeling pretty good about it. We'll have a nice time trick or treating I get to give it to him with love and since he and the OW live an hour away, it gives me time to call her voice mail and leave the message, it's perfect.
I'll be working hard all weekend and week Plan A'ing. I'm nervous but determined more than anything. Gonna pray, give it to God and stay focused on my objectives. No LB'ing and meeting those EN baby!!!
Did my last post make sense about why I feel I need to go til October 31st, even though he may be cake eating a bit. What do you think. I guess my view is how much more can he cake eat he already moved in with her and has been sleeping with her whats 30 days.
Maybe I repeat myself, but cake-eating is not the problem. Cake-eating is a good thing, as far as it goes. It only is a problem if the BS is too weak to cut off the deliveries from the bakery wagon when it's time. I have every confidence you are strong enough and will follow through.
Yes, the A has been going on a long time, but you weren't doing a Plan A during that time. As long as it doesn't become too much for you, your timeline is perfection. 3-4 weeks puts you right in the scoring zone. You'll know if you run out of wheaties before then, and even if you don't know we'll be telling you.
Proceed as planned - great idea!
I agree, I think your plan is sound and getting things on track. You don't want to go out with discord if you want to R the M.
Maybe I repeat myself, but cake-eating is not the problem. Cake-eating is a good thing, as far as it goes. It only is a problem if the BS is too weak to cut off the deliveries from the bakery wagon when it's time. I have every confidence you are strong enough and will follow through.
Yes, the A has been going on a long time, but you weren't doing a Plan A during that time. As long as it doesn't become too much for you, your timeline is perfection. 3-4 weeks puts you right in the scoring zone. You'll know if you run out of wheaties before then, and even if you don't know we'll be telling you.
Proceed as planned - great idea!
Yes exactly. If Neak is repeating herself it bears repeating. Your D-Day may have been a long time ago but your Plan A has only begun! Going to Plan B without having done a good Plan A isn't good.
You're doing great. I really like holding on through Halloween if you are up to it. The better the Plan A, the better your chances. Once you go to Plan B you don't have another chance to Plan A.
Just saw this on the "NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT" thread:
The primary reason for abandoning plan A for plan B is protection. The stress experienced in plan A (trying to care for someone too long who is hurting you more deeply than you ever have, or ever will, experience) can leave you physically and emotionally damaged. So the question each person must ask themselves is, "how tough am I?"
My experience is that men are tougher mentally and physically than women. By that, I mean that women seem to start falling apart emotionally and physically after just a few months, or even a few weeks, of plan A. Men, on the other hand, seem to be able to keep it up for years before experiencing health problems.
If I don't know a person too well, I tend to lean to the safe side by recommending 3-4 weeks of plan A for women, and 6 months for men. But if a woman is no worse for wear after a few weeks, or a man is feeling okay after 6 months, there's no reason to end plan A at that point. As you can see, it's inexact, and depends on how the person is doing. A good support system (like the support people often receive on the Forum) can often keep a person in plan A much longer.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Thanks. I feel better about my decision.
I have a super strong support system with my church. As I said before we were(I still am) associate Pastor's and I'm a worship leader(funny think your immune but your so not), so I have access and support like you wouldn't believe. If I feel at any point I am cracking and losing love I'll go to Plan B.
Right now I feel focused and strong where as the previous 5 months I was just getting. Now I feel like I have a plan in effect and it's helping me feel stronger and not like I'm just making and surviving through each day.
I'm going into this expecting nothing from H and if anything expecting him to pull away and say and do poopey things. When that happens you all can bet I will be jumpin on here and venting or crying to you all.
Well house is spotless, gonna make something he loves for dinner tonight while he does chores and doggonnit I am going to be confident if it kills me and I have to fake it til I make it.
5-6 hours to countdown folks.....
I swear I've not seen anyone grasp the plans more quickly and thoroughly than you have. I think you have the strength and gumption to implement them well, too.
Plan A, baby - hold strong until he leaves, even if he does and says things that cut you to the quick. If he says something insane just be pleasant and then change the subject.
NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. If he starts it, just tell him you'll be open to discussions when he's no longer in contact with OW.
When he's gone you can come here and dump/vent/cry. That's what we're here for.
Ok ya'll just jumping on quickly. He's been here since 3PM. He's done some chores. I'm doing good guys. We are talking haven't done that in so long. Making eye contact haven't done that in super long. He had dinner with us. Said it was good you made my favorites.
Play a few rounds of a board game with me and the kids. Is sitting on couch watching Iron man with kids. it's 8:30P.M. Hope he falls asleep so OW goes crazy, but he could of told he is away on business. Who knows. Just wanted to tell you all I'm making you proud.
Will jump on later when he leaves. He'll be back on Sunday for lunch after church and fixing a few more things.
Back in a bit!
You're doing GREAT!
Remember, no LBs and no relationship talk!!! And no talking about OW - no questions, no insulting her, nothing that will drive him to defend her. But you prolly already know that.
You're really doing terrific!
ETA: Here's hoping you don't come back online tonight cus he's still there!
Well darn he didn't fall asleep. He just came in and said goodbye, I was in my room on the computer giving him some one on one time with the kids.
I said thanks for doing everything. I'll see you Sunday. He says well maybe tomorrow if I can drop by son's football game.
Then he says why the sudden change? Why did you decide to let me come over and do the chores. I just looked at him and grinned and said It's just one of those things that's hard for us to understand each other. I just trying to hold my head up that's all.
He says are you ok? I say yup. He says I know it's hard for you(gee ya think? I mean your only going home to the OW) and I just nod and he says but I think it's important for me to be around the kids. What do ya all think about that?
Boy is he in for a shocker. Not gonna be around for much longer.
Should I have given him a hug for the chores when he said goodbye and I thanked him?
Is kinda a bummer that he didn't stay or fall asleep but overall I did what I have been trying to do for 5 months. I feel ok with myself for conquering my fear. The fear was him, but I don't know why. It's like I bore his shame and it made it hard for me to look at him and talk to him I just wanted to run. Plus he was so darn mean the first 3 months it was insane the hate email i got. But I made no mention or our relationship or the OW.
So do you think I got him thinking at all or is he just cake eating. I mean we made no physical contact just very light conversation at dinner and little bit during the board game. I hope he feels like crap going back to her but thats probably wishful thinking. So I'm thinking my goal is a hug sometime this week end what to do guys think?
That was just golden! Doesn't matter how he reacts overall, and tomorrow he may be a jerk again, then nice some more. You're getting through either way.
A hug next time would be nice.
Even if he doesn't come over tomorrow, he wanted to. That's important.
He felt comfortable tonight. For once he didn't have to suck his stomach in and pretend to be someone he's not. He could just be himself, and relax with his FAMILY.
It doesn't matter whether he is thinking vs. cake-eating. Even if he's not thinking right now, he will have pleeeeeeenty of time to think later.
Great babble line when he asked why you were doing this. It's good when your answers almost but don't ~quite~ make sense, cuz then they have to try and think. It's hard, but so good for their shrunken wittle noodles.
I am so impressed by how you've just stepped up and gotten this going. No promises now, but you're an excellent candidate for a pretty short Plan B, so don't put off studying up on recovery and having a plan ready for when he caves.
Oh thanks so much for popping by. Just wanted a lil feedback on how I did.
I'm a learnaholic. I have read and immerse my self in learning and that's what I did when discovery day happened and he left 2 weeks later. So i have done 5 months of inhaling everything I could. But I only found this book about 6 weeks or so ago and just felt this was the one I am to go with.
Ya know he did seem more like himself than he has for the last 5 months or maybe I was just more my self and it was good for both of us, but mostly for me.
So I'll pop on again tomorrow after the son's football game. He said he would pop by but I didn't know if he planned coming by or just on sunday for our lunch and more chores. I said ok thanks again I'll see you Sunday. He said well I should at least see you tomorrow at the game.
I'm just so proud of myself. I struggle with fear at times and intimidation though you'd never know it and I looked him dead in his eyes. That's the giant I took down in my life tonight and it feels really liberating.
Do miss him, but I'm choosing to keep focused. 28 more days. Gonna start dabbling in my PBL a little each day.
Thanks again for the feedback. Hard not to analyze everything when your in the thick of if.
Feel free to drop me any Plan B and recovery info you think I would need to read or anything at all really.
Well darn he didn't fall asleep.
Oh well. Still, you're off to a terrific start!
He just came in and said goodbye, I was in my room on the computer giving him some one on one time with the kids.
I said thanks for doing everything. I'll see you Sunday. He says well maybe tomorrow if I can drop by son's football game.
This is good!
Then he says why the sudden change? Why did you decide to let me come over and do the chores. I just looked at him and grinned and said It's just one of those things that's hard for us to understand each other. I just trying to hold my head up that's all.
Ahhh, an aura of mystery! Very good!
He says are you ok? I say yup. He says I know it's hard for you(gee ya think? I mean your only going home to the OW) and I just nod and he says but I think it's important for me to be around the kids. What do ya all think about that?
Boy is he in for a shocker. Not gonna be around for much longer.
IMO a good reply would've been to agree about how important it is for kids to have both a mother and a father... and how much the kids have missed him...
IMHO this is NOT a contradiction to your plan to PB. The PB is due to him choosing the OW, not due to you thinking your kids don't need him around. If he's willing to give up the OW and start acting like a husband and father, then you WILL let him come around right?
Should I have given him a hug for the chores when he said goodbye and I thanked him?
I think so. Not a needy clingy one, but a confident, happy one.
Is kinda a bummer that he didn't stay or fall asleep but overall I did what I have been trying to do for 5 months. I feel ok with myself for conquering my fear. The fear was him, but I don't know why. It's like I bore his shame and it made it hard for me to look at him and talk to him I just wanted to run. Plus he was so darn mean the first 3 months it was insane the hate email i got. But I made no mention or our relationship or the OW.
So do you think I got him thinking at all or is he just cake eating. I mean we made no physical contact just very light conversation at dinner and little bit during the board game. I hope he feels like crap going back to her but thats probably wishful thinking. So I'm thinking my goal is a hug sometime this week end what to do guys think?
I think if the situation arises for a friendly non-LB hug, go or it.
I think you don't worry about cake-eating when you're just starting Plan A. Plan A is to get him away from the OW, or at least show him a good contrast to the OW. You don't win the football game on the first down. (Did that make sense? I don't speak football.)
[quote]
IMHO this is NOT a contradiction to your plan to PB. The PB is due to him choosing the OW, not due to you thinking your kids don't need him around. If he's willing to give up the OW and start acting like a husband and father, then you WILL let him come around right?
Absolutely, He has to give up the OW. It's a package deal buddy.
The kids can be dealt with visitation. Yes PB is for me to protect any love that can be saved and to fight for my marriage.
1st day of Plan A went well. No arguments or talk of OW, no LB that I know of, he had his favorite dinner things, enjoyed the evening so I guess were off to a good start.
It's hard to be able to pace yourself ya know and not expect to see something. But ya never know what could be going on in his head. Doesn't matter just gonna give it my best. But shoot, I've been over 5 months in no Plan and just surviving the next 28 days should be doable.
Have you already read all the articles about the end of the affair and moving into recovery? The resentment one is very important, also. The following page has the list of infidelity articles.
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5525_qa.htmlStart listing what your boundaries will be for him to come back. My first time around I had, I think, 4 general ones. Of course NC was at the top of the list.
The second time around, it looked more like Santa's naughty list, or even a bulleted War and Peace. Several pages of fine print, lol. It covered all the same ground as the first 4, but in MUCH more detail as to how exactly it would be executed.
Have all that ready so as soon as he waves the white flag you can give him a nice list and tell him, "This is what it will take for me to consider recovering with you."
And two really important things to keep in mind in recovery:
1. False recoveries are really really common. If it happens, BOOM back into Plan B, and raise the bar higher for him to get back home.
2. Your feelings will go up and down. Some days will be decent, some will be horrible. When it gets bad, trust that it will get better. When it's good, remember it's going to be bad again at times. Your feelings will go all over the chart, but just expect that and it's normal. You can still recover just fine.
This evening could not have gone better, even if he didn't fall asleep....this time.
Ok I will read the link. I so don't want a false recovery. I'm a little worried about that because of the holidays. Plus our 19 year anniversary is coming up in Dec
I hear they get very nostalgic during the holidays. I don't want that, but I've been forewarned.
I'm actually concerned that recovery is harder that Plan A and B.
So I'm gearing up for day 2. Gonna try and give him a hug either today or tomorrow.
Ya know he told me on discovery day that he loved her. Does that matter? I'm hoping shes missing some needs now that they live together.
Good job. Hopefully he went home to OW and a messy house, and a pile of laundry. LOL.
But don't expect ANYTHING from him just yet. Just follow your plan.
Thank you so much. Gonna plug away. We'll see how today goes.
New motto. Expecting nothing. LOL
You only have a short time to go, and it should be easier if you just do the plan for drill. Do the best one you can, and then it will be on to Plan B.
In the meantime, since he is living with the OW, the fantasy should get a little tarnished.
YOU be the more attractive choice. And the best part of it is if he doesn't come back right awy, at least you have made a good life for you and your children. It really completely changed me, and I'm still doing Plan A things in my life, but not to my ex.
No, it doesn't matter that he says he loves OW. He is mistaking hormones for love. You're in the process of giving him a lesson in true love. After his head is extracted, he'll be able to tell the difference.
Well I made it through day 2 of Plan A. Sent an email this morning for the chore list. Said that things were working so much better and that he did a great job and thanked him.
H came to the football game. H has not made it to any of the practices since all this mess was happening or met any of the coaches so I said why don't you go over and meet the coaches. Told my son, go take your dad and introduce him to them. He seemed very happy to meet them. During the game I was freezing I forgot my jacket and my H offered something for me to use. Just made some small talk and enjoyed watching son. He has watched all the games a far(kinda sad he'd stay really far away)but this time he came right up to us. I'm sure it felt good for him.
DD17 talked H into taking us to lunch. So we all went to lunch and stayed 2 hours just talking and joking as a family the way we used to. DD17 says dad seems a little different. I quickly say yes he seems better but remember he is having his cake and eating it to so I'm sure he feels pretty happy. She smiles and says yeah your right mom. We made small talk and thanked him for lunch.
My son is so happy to have his dad around. He keeps saying why are you being so nice to dad and letting him come over. I say son, I'm working on myself and trying to get strong and forgive your dad. I'm very nervous about Plan B for him. I fear he may get mad at me because he enjoys his dad so much. I'll let you all know if he gets angry with me for cutting dad off. I'm sure I'll need all your help in explaining to him.
We thanked him for lunch kids hugged him H said I'll see you guys tomorrow. I wanted to get a hug you guys but it just was an awkward moment so I didn't go there. Maybe tomorrow. I hate goodbyes!
He needs to finish more chores and car work. He only got half the list done. I wish I had more stuff to give him. You think I should invite him to son's football practice during the week? But then If I do, when I go to Plan B I don't want to see him. I mean I'm not playing around with the Plan B, when its dark time, I want it to be pitch black. I want no contact. I understand the importance of it. But then what do I do about seeing him at the games? How should I go about that? We will have about 1 month more of games from my going dark.
The next time we're together if we don't see him before that will be Disneyland on Thursday. It's hard to not think about what's going through his mind. Is he thinking about her while he's with us? I know-stop. I know it says to be upbeat and cheerful, but I think If I'm too cheerful he may read into it so I'm just being kinda laid back and casual and perky at times if we are joking. Boy this is hard work at first. I guess it becomes second nature after a while.
Thanks for all your support guys, I couldn't have made it this far without each one of you.
Neak,
I just remembered. Now that you mention false starts let me share this I think we had a false start.
Well I only found out about the book 6 weeks ago. Discovery day for us was April 23rd. He left that day and was back 3 days later for a visit we thought.
Halfway through the visit he goes calls OW breaks it off(I listened) and destroys the secret phone. The kids and I are in bliss, he's very sorry and apologizes for all he put us through. By the 3rd day he turns into a monster again. I finally after 2 weeks tell him to get out. He had screamed at the kids and his constant anger we just couldn't take anymore. I had asked him if he went back to her during the 2 weeks he was home,he said no. He lied. He did.
So that's kinda a false start I guess huh? I didn't have the book to go by, there was nothing set in stone he just came home after 3 days. I'm not sure if it would have made a difference he couldn't handle the withdrawal symptoms.
Yep, I would call that a false recovery.
Whether he has another will depend mostly on two things: 1. His progress through the life of the affair. Is he sick of her already, or does he pine for her? Either way he could have a false recovery, but it's more likely in the second case. 2. The strength of the extreme precautions.
AJ maintained NC at first, as long as he wasn't challenged on it. He had the strength to not call her...until she left a whiny note on his car, please please just let me hear your voice...I'll heal so much better if you just talk to me a little. :RollieEyes: He was NOT strong enough to hold out against begging. Next thing you know he has a secret cell phone and is right back to lying and acting like a jerk again.
So if you are successful in blocking all communication routes, your chances will be that much better.
And again, another false recovery doesn't have to be the end if you don't want it to be. Plan B and raise the bar, that's what you do, and most of the time it works fine.
Hey you guys jumping on real quick be back later after day 3 is over. This is good or at least I think it is. Never know could be nothing.
Yesterday evening DD17 was talking to H on her cell phone which I didn't know about.
She says to me at night hey mom I was talking to dad on the phone a little while ago and I said Hi daddy and I asked him what he was doing and then H says oh just got off work heading HOME(
ick!) and my funny DD17 says oh, well have fun with that.
And H replies with kinda a lil grunt like "ah" and didn't really say much. She said he sounded like not really.
Wondering if home's not too good. I can only hope and pray!
Back later....
Spiff up your home, and have something good for lunch or dinner.
Ask hubby to help you with something - hanging a picture, moving a piece of furniture. Or ask him for advice on something. Then give him lots of admiration.
Stay fun and cheerful. Avoid relationship talk. Tell him you are excited about Disneyland.
Well guys made it through Day 3, 26 more to go. Its been a jammed packed weekend of Plan A'ing.
For the scoop on yesterday view a few posts up.
Recap of today. H came over at 3PM left just now almost 9PM. Where on earth is he telling the OW he is at all weekend unless he told her the truth and she's just okay with it IDK??
I don't really like to bug him to much when he's working. He likes to work alone and focused so I try and respect that. He did have dinner and dessert with the kids and I.
He seems so much more like himself now that he has been in so long, but I guess that's the cake eating part. He enjoyed the dinner and thanked me for it and even cleared a few dishes and washed them off-something he has rarely done in 20+ years.
He did a lot chores and we made some small talk here and there. A lot of eye contact. I wasn't super perky today just kinda mellow. I didn't have a chance to get a hug in. Just can't figure how to get that in with out it being awkward. Maybe at Disneyland.
But so far Plan A is going good, I think. It's hard not to second guess my self because you just don't see a whole lot but I'm going to keep plugging away. Not sure if we'll see him before Thursday but I will figure a way to get him here.
I didn't have any extra stuff for him to help me with since he had the hugest list of chores. But I did start a family website a few weeks back and I had a bunch of pictures of his families house that I was able to ask him about several pictures so that was a good thing I guess. Having him around makes me miss him more than not seeing him for 5 months. {{sigh}} This is by far the hardest thing ever I have gone through. I feel okay though knowing I have a Plan.
Talk to ya guys soon....
He seems so much more like himself now that he has been in so long
PEA poisoning is wearing off maybe :crosseyedcrazy:
You are amazing, woman! I have never seen anyone take to a Plan A like you have. WH isn't going to know what hit him come Plan B.
For you, a thought I used to ahve pinned up by the computer
"Never underestimate the power of persistance"
I have never seen anyone take to a Plan A like you have.
I dunno, lil, TMTS rocked it pretty hard!!
There should be an MB award ceremony every year...that could be one of the categories: Best Plan A.
Charlotte
I dont think I know that poster.
and yes I totally agree. Wonder what I would win tho, most whiny BS, most reluctant BS
It would be a competition between Ayane and I for most TMI
What about you?
Ok I looked on Acronyms whats PEA LOL. Sorry so new at forums.
Don't always feel so amazing. Hard when it looks like nothing is happening ya know. I mean were getting along. We used to all the time until 2 months before I found out. I asked DD17 how I've been doing with Dad around. She said mom your doing really good, I've been watching you. You haven't been overly happy you've just been real relaxed your doing good. I said oh good I can't tell I'm focusing so hard.
I am persistent, don't mind working hard usually feels good. I know it's a long haul just wish there was a detour.
Kids haven't seen dad that much over the 5 months because they were so mad and H was really really crazy the 1st several months. Having dad around is weighing on my son 9. Tonight he came unglued at bedtime crying for an hour saying he wants his dad back home. I just hold him and tell him I know me to bud. Wish these walk a ways would consider for just a moment the torture it puts the kids through. Anyways I feel pretty good after DD17 views on it. I wasn't sure if I appeared fake or not because to a degree I am faking it. I still hurt but am acting at peace. Fake it til ya make it I guess.
So I just sent this email a few minutes ago to him for today:
Hey there,
Thanks again for all the work you did and even replacing all the light bulbs too and it wasn't even on the list of stuff I needed done. That was really thoughtful. I know it was your day off and you had to drive an hour and you took the time to do all the chores. That was really nice of you to give up your only free day and have to work on the house for me. I just want you to know that I am grateful for it and everything is working great. Kids and I enjoyed your company for dinner.
You mentioned that you still needed to use the tools to work on your own car. Your welcome to come over tomorrow if you would like.
Have a great day.So that's the last of Plan A for today....big thanks to all of you who help me keep on going!
I dunno, lil, TMTS rocked it pretty hard!!
Charlotte
Realllly I want to see or read her/his thread. Maybe there is something I can learn from it. Show me a link somebuddiezzzz
Ok I looked on Acronyms whats PEA LOL. Sorry so new at forums.
PEA Poisoning.....
In the first two stages of love, the chemical phenylethylamine also appears in the brain. Phenylethylamine is the "love drug" in chocolate. It helps maintain the euphoric high of falling in love. If partners break up, phenylethylamine levels plummet, causing depression and woe.
After two to five years, phenylethylamine leaves the body naturally. It's replaced by other, more stable chemicals.
DOPED UP
Helen Fisher, a research professor of anthropology at Rutgers University , is among many scientists who believe the flush of a new love is enhanced by natural stimulants in the brain, dopamine and norepinphrine. She explains that high levels of these natural chemicals can make people lose their appetites and their desire for sleep, just by thinking about their new infatuations. 'These are basic traits commonly associated with romantic love and with these natural stimulants,' she says. 'What else could explain the way you constantly think about a person, about the way you want to read them your bad poetry?'
Further studies show that gushy romantic sensations may be similar to the highs drug addicts feel when they're under the influence. Nora Volkow; the associate director for life sciences at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York , has analysed the behaviours of drug addicts and people in love and found striking parallels. 'When a person is passionately in love, it is extremely exciting and provocative, and if the loved one is not there, distressing,' says Volkow. 'When I see my drug addicted patients, it just clicks with me how similar the addiction is. 'The fact that drug addiction and passionate love may trigger the same responses, signals to Volkow that drug addiction is especially dangerous since it taps into a natural sensation.
and now I must go do some love bank time with Flick.
G'nite
Wow your the info queen!
Fill that bank gurl!!!
Most TMI!!
Me? Heck, I can't be nominated. I lost that when the judge ordered us to work together and I had to break Plan B. Unless theirs a category for nutty fruitcake. Or fruity nutcake. LOL!
Charlotte
I dunno, lil, TMTS rocked it pretty hard!!
Charlotte
Realllly I want to see or read her/his thread. Maybe there is something I can learn from it. Show me a link somebuddiezzzz
Hi T2L,
I wish I could find it for you, but I was trying to use the search feature yesterday and it would not work for me at all!!
That would be a great thread for you to read, though. I hope someone can dig it up for you. Such a GREAT story!!
Take care,
Charlotte
[t/j]
I love your thread! I never post on it but I love reading about shiny, mr grey and co.
I think Mr grey is doing a serious rethink.
anyway, your cool, you could get 'most in to it with her lawyer award'
Is he married?
[end t/j]
No prob thanks for trying.
if TMTS = "too much too soon", I bumped the threads for you, at least what I could find
Oh wow your awesome thanks so much. I hear there's a lot I may be able to learn from the amazing Plan A.
I'm going to read it today only have 26 days til going dark gonna try to pack in as much as possible.
Only hard part is you see nothing. But onwards I go......
Trying not to be bummed but I guess it's good that I at least put the offer out there.
He will run so hot and cold it will make your head spin. Whatever you do, DON'T gauge the impact of your actions by his responses. DON'T give what he says much weight at all. Just keep your Plan A close and stick to it. It is making an impression on him, even if he doesn't show that or even realize it himself yet.
Others on MB have said:
You need to be the Thermostat, not the Thermometer. In other words, he will run hot and cold, but if you are a Thermometer you will react to that. You have to be the Thermostat: Setting the temperature and let him react to you.
Ok that makes sense will do. Set the temp.
So son had a breakdown last night after dad left. H called back to talk with son but he wouldn't get on the phone. DD17 talked to him this morning and asked how son 9 was. DD17 says well he's pretty upset but he's starting therapy group today so maybe that will help him. H says I doubt it's going to help him he wants me back. DD17 says yup. DD17 says the whole time he kept sighing. Sounds like he is finally for the love of God feeling what my children have been suffering through. At first he kept thinking I was exaggerating and not being honest. HE has no clue the depth of pain he' caused the kids but hopefully it's starting to sink in.
Another way I've seen the thermostat concept phrased is this:
Be the lighthouse.
Dont' be the ships out at sea, floundering and blowing every which way the wind blows. Be the lighthouse, rock steady, regardless of how the ships act.
There used to be a popular thread that was posted from time to time about being the lighthouse, but search is broken so I can't find it
But you get the general idea. Imagine what I said, but longer and eloquent
We should start an office pool for how long (or short) your Plan B is going to wind up being.
This is going so well! Trust me on this.
This is going so well! Trust me on this.
Agreed.
Really gosh I hope so. Feels like forever and seeing him so much makes me miss him lots.
Ya know what else I forgot to mention to you guys he kinda a creature of habit. He always hated being in between places. Like if we were on vacation and he wasn't home but he had left vacation destination he hated that. He either wanted to be on vacation or home.
So yes start an office pool and I hope your all right. I'm gonna update tonight if he ends up coming over. So wish he'd get his head on before Plan B but i guess that's everyone's wish.
Hey you guys, I wanna ask ya this. So i've read so many books on this topic. A lot of them say to stop saying I love you and all the reasons why you shouldn't which makes a lot of sense.
But now that he is calming down a bit how should I sign my emails? Most of our communication is via email as I think unless he's here at the house he's not comfortable talking on the phone with me yet or OW is around. Who knows. But ya think I can sign off love you or not yet? Right now I just say have a great day.
What do you all think?
Hey you guys, I wanna ask ya this. So i've read so many books on this topic. A lot of them say to stop saying I love you and all the reasons why you shouldn't which makes a lot of sense.
Can you explain that? Why not say "I love you" or express your love for the other person?
I think I need to start my own thread for this phase of my relationship....
Hey I like to take chances, put me down for you don't have to go to PB at all, he comes home before Halloween!
About how to sign off on emails, my H signs all his emails to me this way:
*hug*
OMG does that mean I'm cheating on him when I say *hugs* to y'all here?
Anyway it seems like something like that is ambiguous enough and yet not cold or stiff. Oh yes, with other people he signs off this way:
*wave*
Well some of the books I've read suggest that the walk away may think like this, when you say I love you:
Yeah right what she he/she want now. She's just saying that so I wont leave or so I will come back. She's trying to manipulate me. How can she love me when I just cheated on her. Hey this is cool I have two of them waiting for me. What is she trying to say when she says that. How am I supposed to respond to that, say I love you too? I hate it when she says that it really makes her unattractive.
So that's why I ask if I should say I love you. But I do like the hugs idea.
I'm gonna start writing my PBL.
What are some of the conditions you would suggest having every Walk away meet hands down?
Also if you think your H is possibly a high functioning alcoholic would you write a no alcohol clause? I don't want to be his parent but think the alcohol may have played a part in it. He told me on discovery day that the reason he drank was to kill the guilt and the more the drank the less he felt for me and the more he felt for her.
So everyone tell me some things you would include in PBL or some things others have regretted not putting in.
Also if you think your H is possibly a high functioning alcoholic would you write a no alcohol clause? I don't want to be his parent but think the alcohol may have played a part in it. He told me on discovery day that the reason he drank was to kill the guilt and the more the drank the less he felt for me and the more he felt for her.
well you could but Flick did the same. Personally I thought it was bollocks then, and havent changed my mind. What do you think? Don't listen to potential fogbabble. Below is a bit of one of his letters to me in the first couple of weeks post D=day
I have become increasingly of the opinion that my
Online gambling
Pornography
Lack of application to xxxxxxxxxxxxx jobs
"Mistreatment" of you
Drinking alone
Excesive spending
And on and on the list goes
Have all been (in part at least) symptoms of a less than brilliant relationship/friendship. Hey I'm not trying to say I'm perfect, if I was I would have seen this ages ago.
see what I mean?
He hasnt shown any inclination towards any of those things in recovery.
ok, here are my attempts at PBL's. There are a few examples of the notable posts thread, will look later and bump it.
first try 2nd try the second try has advice following it for a couple of pages.
But now that he is calming down a bit how should I sign my emails?
How about:
Your wife,
Okay, so maybe he wouldn't think it was too funny.
I don't think I'd do the "Love," thing myself.
I'd either just put my name or I'd have a game with it, and sign off differently with each correspondence:
Later,
Hasta,
Confused,
Hungrily,
Sleepily,
Whatever suits you at the moment. That way you can be fun and interesting w/o the "guilt trip" of saying "Love," where he feels like he's being tricked or coerced into saying he loves you back.
Great I'll take a look at it, thanks. I just don't want to forget anything and have to come out of the dark and I want to be sure I consider all the super important conditions that need to be met so I don't shoot my own foot off.
So I've sent a few admiration's this week via email and thanking him for different stuff he did over the weekend. I know I'm not supposed to expect anything. He never responds with anything. But boy his angry lost his mind blaming chew out letters were long for sure. Disneyland in 2 more days, really looking forward to it. Goal, have lots of fun and get a hug!
Hey everyone! So I'm needing to vent. I'm not real bad just letting off some steam so I can go on and get some encouragement so I can keep going. Well haven't seen H since he left on Sunday from doing the chores. Daughter talks to him today and says he dad why don't you just spend the night on the couch and then we all can ride down to Disneyland together. She said dad was acting weird.
He replies don't you think that will be hard on your brother? What does that really mean?
My son had a breakdown Sunday night crying and wanting his dad to come home. H called but son was too upset to get on phone. I guess he thinks since he has been around my son may have false hope and he feels responsible?
DD17 say well let us know if you want to. He says Ohhhh Kaaay, talk to you later, kinda said sarcastically. Idk maybe he thinks we're trying to trap him and tell the OW? who knows.
So I feel kinda down. He seemed really good over the weekend, now feel likes he's pulled back. Maybe my thank you's and admiration's emails are too much? He doesn't respond to any of them, not even a your welcome or anything. Not a word. How on earth am I going to meet more of his needs for the next 24 days?
Just feeling like is he easing his conscience by doing the chores and he really doesn't care or have a desire to reconcile. Man this is hard! I have no clue whats going on in his head. He gives no indication of anything, even after the 3 days over the weekend. {{sighs}} 24 more days. So hard guys just having him around is worse than a Plan B to me. It's like look but don't touch or a carrot in front of the donkey. I just want to hold him and him me. Now he hugs her.
So i vented....Focus. Disneyland day after tomorrow.....Breathe....I can do this.
Knock it off, woman. You are already running out to the garden to see if the plants have sprouted. Expect nothing, remember?
My ex told me that he used to lay awake at night thinking of coming home, especially when I was doing a good Plan A.
Yeah, what Believer said.
I sent an appreciative email EVERY SINGLE DAY for 3 months excluding the days we 'stayed over', then I told him when we woke up. He never acknowlege any of them except one morning when i was telling him of an event in the past where his response has always been a chrished memory of mine he asked "Do you have a list of these or something?"
As far as it being hard on your son, I have to admit using the girls to manipulate the situation from time to time. I would have said in the same situation something like "DS would find things much easier if he felt he could have some quality family time with us all. Staying over the odd night would go alone way to reassuring him that his
family love him."
As far as him blowing hot and cold, think on the email I sent you yesterday. Even though all of that he was hot and cold and some of them could be minutes apart. 6 months ago he was physically shoving me across the bed if I dared let a body part touch him. Last night I was wrapped up in his arms.
Ignore it, concentrate on you.
You're right guys! I stand corrected and directed. Ok no pity parties, focus back to work and get that list. This is good for me. I already wear my emotions on my sleeve. Gonna be a new day for me either way. Not going to led by my emotions anymore. thanks for the smack guys! What would I do with out you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
No looking in the garden yet, I need some miracle grow fertilizer for my garden!!! Then my pretty little plants will grow faster...oh wait wrong plants...Ok sorry couldn't resist. Hey at least it made me laugh.
Thanks guys.
He replies don't you think that will be hard on your brother? What does that really mean?
Translation:
I hate that my actions are affecting my children. It makes it much harder to pretend like my sordid adultery is really a pink fairy princess happilyeverafter soulmate cloud frolic, and not just a slimy wallow with an amoral porcine homewrecker.
She CAN'T be a slimy wallowing amoral porcine homewrecker, because....because......what would that make ME??????
And if ~shudder~ I actually am forced to SEE the raw bleeding damage to my family, it could ...almost... indicate that what is happening is my fault. But it's not! It's all because of Trying and her inadequacies as a wife. If only she had been a better wife, I wouldn't be here now with the slimy wallo - uh - I mean the pink fairy princess frolicking soulmate, now would I???
Yep, much better to not see anything at all lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you.....................
Oh that was a good laugh, and so creative!
Thanks.
Hey, when H leaves on days he comes to visit, should the kids say I wish you didn't have to go or why do you have to go? Or should I be sure the kids keep everything happy since we are in Plan A, so as to not have any bad feelings?
The kids should say what THEY want to say, what is TRUTH for them.
You should neither encourage nor deny.
Oh boy. Having H around and calling more now is really a good thing but the down side is it seemed like my son was able to cope better. Almost an out of sight out of mind thing.
Now that his dad is around he's been having fits of crying at night. 2 nights ago cries and says, mom I don't need anything. I don't need toy or games I just need my dad to come home.
Then ready for this. He just finished talking to his dad and I tucked him in for bed. Son says mom, I know what I want from dad for my birthday(this Sunday). Any guesses? Yup he says I want dad to come home for my birthday. He wants to ask him.
Oh Lord help me. It breaks my heart. I say well son, you are welcome to tell your dad what ever you like but what if he can't give you what you want for your birthday? He says why mom. So i say well maybe if you do ask maybe you should give him time to think, and when we love people we give them some time to think. He says why does he need more time we already waited 5 months mom.
Should I discourage him to ask his dad this? I don't want his dad to feel pressured and i don't want my son to set his self up for disappointment either. I'd just like you all to know that I HATE THIS!!
For me to suffer is one thing but it hurts worse when my babies hurt. Good thing is my son started therapy group this week.
Anyways was able to make small conversation with H on phone after son talked to him. We'll talk on the phone tomorrow to nail down meeting place at Disneyland.
I was re-reading my whole thread to be sure I'm getting everything. Some one posted earlier in the thread to see if after Disneyland trying to schedule dinner or something with just the 2 of us. What do you all think about that? I can't imagine it, but I was going to invite him to go to the pumpkin patch with us to get pumpkins for the kids and then see if he wants to come over the day before Halloween to help the kids carve them and maybe have some cider. Trying to think of more reasons for him to come over....
Break some stuff if you have to.
"Really? I can't imagine how those cables could have just
fallen out of the engine like that..."
Ewe I like your thinking! Hee Hee I'm so not kidding. I'm gonna do it! Yessssss!
Oh hun,
I am so sorry. 2 weeks before her birthday DD12 was saying her prayers one night and she asked God to "bring daddy back for my birthday please God"
I had to leave the room, it made me cry so much.
He did come back. This is the power of a child's prayer I believe.
I LOVE Neaks suggestion. Is WH any good at electronics? A couple of strategically pulled wires in something like the kitchen whizz, remove the washer in the bathroom tap... I have 2 guys here and they are not being helpful LOL.
Oops, they suggest blocking your drains with a huge wodge of hair and stuffing a handful of leaves in the drain. Break a window. Poke a nail into the car tire. Squirt super glue in the door lock...
I think they're taking the piss out of us
Okay okay okay, whoooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah Nellie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ladeez, I was JUST KIDDING about breaking stuff. You knew that, right????? You're making me think of the nuns in The Sound of Music. :MrEEk:
If you think carefully, you should be able to find enough to ask him to help with that you don't have to resort to committing violence upon your personal possessions, lololol. There must be SOMETHING he can help with...
Also, I was thinking. You've been really regular about sending him daily emails, right? Well, a couple days after Disneyland, skip a day with no word or explanation as to why. You can bet he's grown to depend on those emails, whether he'll admit to liking them or not. An occasional miss will keep him on his toes a bit, cause he'll wonder WHY???
And if you can think of a movie you'd never ever ever go to see and he knows it, or even some sporting event like monster trucks or similar, anything he knows you don't go for, and have a female friend who would go with you, ask him to come over and babysit. He lives so far away it couldn't go late, and you would want your female friend to come and pick you up so there is clear evidence of ZERO wrongdoing, but he will fret anyway. Even if he refuses to babysit, it shows him what a big wonderful expanding life you're making without him.
There, that ought to keep you busy and mayhem free for a few hours.
If you think carefully, you should be able to find enough to ask him to help with that you don't have to resort to committing violence upon your personal possessions, lololol.
Also, I was thinking. You've been really regular about sending him daily emails, right? Well, a couple days after Disneyland, skip a day with no word or explanation as to why. You can bet he's grown to depend on those emails, whether he'll admit to liking them or not. An occasional miss will keep him on his toes a bit, cause he'll wonder WHY???
:
Oh man I haven't laughed that hard in the morning in a while. I'm sorry so funny....committing violence on your own possessions...LOLOLOL.
Yeah I have been emailing daily, so I'm going to implement that, great idea. Well tomorrow is Disneyland. I am very excited to go actually, the kids and I haven't gone together in a while.
H answered me this morning and he is going to a pumpkin patch with us next Friday and will be coming over the night before Halloween to carve them with the kids. I'll be sure there is cider and his favorite dessert here too. This Saturday is son's game and I should see H again and then This Sunday is my son's actual birthday and he has agreed to come to the house with 3 friends from church to have lunch for Gabriel. Packed weekend.
Next week don't have him schedule to come except for Friday.
So sorry about your son. I used to advise people to tell their children not to worrry because they "have a plan" to bring back the wayward.
However one member told his 4 year old that, and a year later, now that the divorce is almost final, his 4 year old still insists that mom is coming back, because "dad has a plan". It made me cry. So I don't know if that was very good advise.
Awe. Most of the time I tell my son: son I am so glad you are praying for your dad and that your hopeful because that's better than being hateful. I just want you to understand that this is your dad's choice and although we can pray for him God will allow dad to have his free will and own choice so let's just see how it goes but I will always love your dad and you will always have a dad.(Doesn't comfort him much, kids always see the impossible as possible).
I kinda put a disclaimer out on stuff so he won't be upset. Sounds faithless but I just can't bear more pain for my son if I can help it.
Hey what do you guys think. I send him emails, almost daily now and try to include admiration's. I wanted to also address it this time instead of his actual name, a funny name or a pet name that I used to use for him. What do you guys think?
I think it is fine to use a pet name. Make your communication fun and cheery. Let him know what is going on at home, with friends, your kids, just everyday things.
Maybe you can start a project around the house. I went crazy organizing and rearranging things. Two of my friends came over and helped me redo my sun porch with an Asian theme. All it took was some paint and stuff we found at garage sales and second hand stores. My ex noticed and realized that my life was going on without him.
Yes use the pet name.
NO don't commit violence on your possessions - that's manipulative and dishonest (but the ideas were oh, so funny!)
I like the bit about telling your son you can pray but that God allows free will and this is Dad's choice.
One thing I had to learn when I divorced my children's father is to quit making excuses for him. When they wanted to know why Dad didn't show up, or didn't call, or why he forgot something, I had to learn to say: I don't know. That's a question your Dad will have to answer.
Comfort your children but let your WH own the repercussions of his actions.
T2L:
I am impressed with your post. I was not going to give my 2c- but I feel something might be missing. First, YOU are in a plan A- your kids are always going to be loving to their father. You should expect, and encourge this- no matter how much it may hurt you. It is the most normal thing (excepting cases of abuse)in the long run for them.
I teach high school. Talk to a lot of kids from broken families. The best kids sem to be the ones that have relationships with both parents that are positive. GMHO
(this does not mean kids think very poorly of parents choices--kids are way smarter than you'd think) But I would not want my kids to worry about me if my H left (They have enough to think about their own feelings.) If you show them you are determined to be happy--they will see and identify with it.
I see you focusing on him, him, him. What are you doing to improve yourself? Read any good books? Hobbies? Learn something new. Meditate, pray- walk, make new friends- remember that MB principles are based on improving yourself (not saying that you are not perfect)-- but I believe these things can help you--If your WH comes home or not--
I don't see a downside to YOU investing in YOU.
You are the thermostat. You set the pace.
You are not the thermometer. You don't react.
You are the lighthouse, steadfast and reliable.
You are not the ship, floundering at sea.
He replies don't you think that will be hard on your brother? What does that really mean?
His actions will be inconsistent now but his words will be all over the map and TOTALLY cannot be given any weight. He may say lovey things, he may say hateful things. He may just say insane things. Don't pay any of it any heed. Really. He is not himself now and he is not thinking clearly. I do think that the interpretation (Believer? Neak?) gave you was pretty close to dead on. He's putting up walls against the guilt. But you don't care, because you are focusing on you. You can't control him, can't understand him right now. So don't spend any cycles trying to.
Idk maybe he thinks we're trying to trap him and tell the OW? who knows.
You are the lighthouse. You don't care what the floundering ship is doing, you stand firm regardless. Remember?
Maybe my thank you's and admiration's emails are too much? He doesn't respond to any of them, not even a your welcome or anything.
They are NOT too much! He may go from non-response to hateful vitriol. Don't pay any of it any mind. He has put himself into a frame of mind where he cannot acknowledge the kind and good things you do, because to do so would break all his "reasons" (rationalizations, justifications) for being in the A. He *can't* acknowledge your thank yous and admirations. He has put himself into a place mentally and emotionally where that is impossible.
If he does get angry and mean, just keep on keeping on. Steady and constant. Anger would not mean you're doing something wrong. It would mean he's feeling guilty and his A-fantasy is threatened.
Really, do NOT react to him right now. Stay focused.
Man this is hard! I have no clue whats going on in his head.
It absolutely does not matter what's going on in his head. Focus on you. Quit worrying about him.
Don't make me come over there and whomp you on the head. :twobyfour:
Thanks so much for the input. At discovery the kids and I both had to kind of cut him off for month. He was insane. Angry, verbally bashing me in front of the kids, drinking all the time if he came for visits, saying retarded things to DD17 like ok you looked stoned in that baby picture or ok have fun don't get too drunk. So we stopped talking to him in the month of may. Kids resumed talking in June but were seriously mad at him. They stopped talking to him again in August because he threw a fit when he couldn't change a visit day so the kids were upset and he said tell them when they get over it they can call me. I said no way buddy, you call them they are your children. So he didn't call for a while. They have in the last 3 weeks resumed talking and visits with him. He seems more stable now and more like he used to be so I feel ok. I do monitor my sons phone calls for now just to be sure he's not saying inappropriate things.
As for myself. When this started, i did find another book called the Divorce Remedy by Michelle-Wiener Davis. A fw things I learned in it is to do a 180 and Get a Life. So I forced myself to sign up for salsa lessons. I absolutely love it and this month I will be taking 2 different workshops. I walk daily with a girlfriend in the mornings, in fact she's on route now. I go to church twice a week where I lead worship. I was determined from the get go to not allow this circumstance to not take me down that the kids depend on me and so I have been fighting to do so and to continue to live. I have done so alcohol and drug free. I do miss my H and do want to spend the rest of my life with him but that's not my choice so for now I'm momma and a proud one.
Did I mention ya'll that I need to be whomped on the head?
I am a straight forward shoot from the hip tell it like it is type person with no holding back. So this is stinking awesome! Everyone here is just like that. I can only receive from people like that. I don't like beat around the bush it's a waste of time.
YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!!!!
I am going to read your last post daily, I think I may print it out. I don get moved a lot at things around me. But I like it, steadfast, reliable and don't react.
So I forced myself to sign up for salsa lessons. I absolutely love it and this month I will be taking 2 different workshops.
Ooh! If you love Salsa, you should try Belly Dancing!! I started Ballroom dancing in February or so--(Latin as well as American, we do it ALL!)--and I decided to just check-out belly dancing on a whim.
Ohhhhhh.....it's GREAT!! And something you can do in the privacy of your own home and of course if you are married you can do routines for your husband.
It really keeps you in great shape!! Plus--you start to carry yourself differently. And posture? Oh, ROCKIN'!! Works better to make you aware of your posture all of the time than your Mom telling you to "Stand up straight!!"
LOL! My WH-Gray didn't know a thing about it until we had to go back to court in May. My Shiny Attorney brought it up when I was on the stand...then the judge did, too!
Never thought I'd have to stop myself from bursting out laughing while on the stand in a court of law...but that's exactly what DID happen, by gum!!
And I KNOW that gave HIM food for thought!!
There are some really good videos, too, but it's a lot of fun to be in a class with a bunch of tittering women!! LOL!! They DO get serious after a while, though.
Charlotte
Well actually I have been wanting to try belly dancing. I'm gonna do it! I'll start looking a for a class near me.
My posture could use it too! I love learning new things. I want to take a gourmet cooking class, to that would be lots of fun! I've always wanted to learn more about wine too. There are endless possibilities!
I wanna be your friend in real life.
Any woman that says "y'all" and "this is stinking awesome" and takes salsa lessons, well that's my kind of people.
I'm totally not brave enough for belly dancing lessons, though this belly sure could use them. Charlotte is an inspiration.
My laughter is certainly covered for this week. Funny thing some when I had him over here over the weekend, both toilets were not flushing correctly and one started leaking...LOL I swear I didn't do it! Now that I know I'm going dark on the 31st I'm going through house so I don't have to much to worry about trying to fix.
BTW I am reading your story Neak, I'm only on page 2 so far. Back in a bit....
Neak has a wonderful story, it will knock your socks off. She went head to head with the evil OW. You won't believe it.
Loving your story Neak, I'm reading away back and forth all day while I'm trying to get things done around the house....Man yo are the woman of steal!
Hey Neak ,
Just wondering, on a scale of 1 to 10 and 10 being the worst, How stubborn would you say your H was pre-A?
I'm reading your story. My H is very very stubborn. He told DD17 a few days after discovery that, "your mom knows I'm risky and I don't care I'll risk everything and I don't care if I lose".
I'm comparing, I know I shouldn't as all cases are different. Just a wonderin
Alright my homies(that means home gurlz or home boyz)
that so ya wanna hear the newest?? You GOTTA read because I am confused, not really, but kinda. Well, DD17 has had swollen tonsils since Monday. Took her to doctor get prescription. Didn't get better got worse, she went to ER last night. H say well why didn't you call me? I say well you have to work early and we didn't want to wake you. He says call me anytime. DD17 and I look at each other were like ok whatever.
So DD17 been just hanging out at home today resting. Guess she texted her dad this morning and asks him to stay over so we can drive to Disneyland together and so we don't have to drive home late and tired just her and I, unbeknown to me.
So I just got back from picking my son up from school and DD17 says mom come here. I say whats up everything ok? She says well dad just called me and he said(okay are you ready for this??) he's just going to get us a hotel room so we don't have to drive home and moms just letting me do all this stuff and it's all happening too fast. Umm can someone tell me what is happening too fast? LOL.
I just let him come over and work like a dog at the house, made a few dinners, said thanks for the help, offered a few invitations to come a few places with us and sent a few admiration's via email. I say well I'd rather use the money for something else and just drive home but thanks for offering the hotel.
I would guess maybe about a 7.
I'm super-stubborn, but fortunately for everyone around me I'm also very placid and easygoing so it doesn't show much. I give plenty on most stuff, but if you hit the stubborn, boy that's it! (In case you wondered, during his A he hit the stubborn. :MrEEk: )
So DD17 been just hanging out at home today resting. Guess she texted her dad this morning and asks him to stay over so we can drive to Disneyland together and so we don't have to drive home late and tired just her and I, unbeknown to me.
So I just got back from picking my son up from school and DD17 says mom come here. I say whats up everything ok? She says well dad just called me and he said(okay are you ready for this??) he's just going to get us a hotel room so we don't have to drive home and moms just letting me do all this stuff and it's all happening too fast. Umm can someone tell me what is happening too fast? LOL.
I just let him come over and work like a dog at the house, made a few dinners, said thanks for the help, offered a few invitations to come a few places with us and sent a few admiration's via email. I say well I'd rather use the money for something else and just drive home but thanks for offering the hotel.
What do you guys think about what my H said today, weird huh? what's happening to fast?
He thought he was done with you.
Now, thanks to Plan A he is conflicted, and feeling drawn back home even while the evil alien hormones race through his veins. Confusion!
And it all happened so fast. :RollieEyes:
I am pleased that your possesions are safe from being excuses
As far as the comment by WH, it sounds tentativley hopeful...you have been doing an awesome plan A...if OW is just cruising on, thinking she's got her man and being more relaxed...or the laugh of the other day actually meant sometinhg.....
Just shut it up in your heart as a possible tempory fog clearing.
Remember, NO expectations.
On another topic, I planted some sunflower seeds today and thought of you and your 'garden', especially when Flick came out just after and asked if they had sprouted yet
Awe now when they bloom you will think of lil old me! Whoo whoo!
I have no expectations for tomorrow except for maybe having a stinking rotten amazing time with my lil ones!
So I just sent H a text message saying where to meet the guy to pick up our tickets(got em off ebay and wayyyy cheap!). And he responds okay and asks if the kids are excited. I say we are all stupid excited and we can't wait. He says me to and go to bed(its almost midnight here) and I say you know me too well, last minute packing I'll go to bed in 10 minutes I promise. Then guess what he says?? Goodnight!(HOLY COW!!!) I say nighty night!
Anyways, I can't believe he said goodnight. So I'm off to bed.
So everyone say a prayer I sow some good emotional needs seeds on good ground tomorrow and I eventually get to reap reap reap!
I'll tell Mickey, Minnie and the gang that my Marriage Builders friends, mentors and support say "Hey Ya'll!"
Tune back in on Friday where our story begins again and with out commercial interuption...Hee Hee okay I'm tired.
Our thoughts are with you. It is an awesome day in SoCal. Hope you have a wonderful time. But remember, no expectations.
I've been following this thread, I'm really rooting for you! You are doing such a wonderful job!
Whew, long drive home and exhausted but I thought of you all as soon as I got here so I wanna update. It was a lovely day here in So. Cali. The weather was gorgeous, not to hot and not too cold and Disneyland wasn't too crowded.
So went with NO expectations. We all had a very nice day. HE shoveled out the cash for tickets, meals, snacks and candy. We made small talk over Politics and he asked how a few of his friends from church were doing. No major LB's I am hoping. Just played it relaxed and enjoyed the day.
I have to tell you guys. For the 1st time in 18 1/2 years he was different. Not that it was an interest in me. But he has always had anger and irritation issues. Every time we've gone somewhere like Disneyland, he's irritated, impatient or gets kinda pist with the crowds or if we can't decide where we wanna go next, gets wigged out that someone is staring at him or some stupid thing. It felt like the 1st time in 18 1/2 years that he actually cared and wanted to be with us and not put out or doing some time to please us. I just can't believe it.
I am kinda besides myself right now. The thing is I feel like, aside of this ridiculous A he is in right now, he was different, and I think it was real. I don't know that my H could have faked that for and entire day at Disneyland. To say the least I'm speechless. I know it sounds lame but you just don't know what it's been like. Now if he can kick the ho bag to the curb we'll be doing great! I think since one of the top needs is admiration, i was thinking about sending a thank you email tomorrow and also comment on the growth in this new area, what do you think?
Anyways I had planned on giving him a hug when we were going to leave but he had to hop in our car so we could drop him off at his car. When he got out of the car we all thanked him, kids hugged him and he reached over and grabbed my shoulder and squeezed it as I guess kinda an affection sorta??
So it went good, at least from my view, idk about his view.
We'll see him at the game on Saturday morning and over to the house on Sunday for sons actual b-day.
Oh yeah forgot to mention this, hope I remember it right. So we decided to let the kids hit the last ride and we'd wait for them. We got some drinks and chatted. We talked about our home. Since this mess we have got behind on payments as his pay went down due to a demotion a few months ago and his new expenses. He got his position back 2 weeks ago and things are getting a bit better. So this is what he says, " I don't want to lose the house and move you guys. I am trying, lets see if we can get some help. Let's say if none of this happened and we lost the house, I wouldn't make you move back to p-dale I would still rent a place for us out here." I say you mean for me and the kids? He says yeah I would do that too but if this never happened and we lost the house I would rent a place for all of us out here and not move back to p-dale. Interesting huh? If it never happened...I wish....That's the update for now, so gimme feedback if ya gotz any.....Night Ya'll
That sounds great. Well done to you.
i was thinking about sending a thank you email tomorrow and also comment on the growth in this new area, what do you think?
If it were me I'd play it cool and send an email talking about something else, maybe with a practical question or asking for his advice on something he knows a bit about (flatters his ego) and then add a PS saying something like 'you were a great dad on whateverday, the kids appreciated it.'
I was hoping you'd have made an update. IMO it could not possibly have gone any better.
Remember, no expectations - even though Disney was perfect, the slut ho may be riding his case because she's jealous and feeling insecure (if she knows where he was) and he may take his bad feelings out on you. Waywards run hot and cold and it is NOT about you.
I do think things are going swimmingly.
I think I'd mention his newer, better attitude. I wouldn't gush, just say how great it was to see him appearing so relaxed or something like that. Maybe comment on how some folks don't handle even happy stress - like Disney - well but he was such a pleasure to be with. I dunno, find your own words and say something, but keep it low key.
I'm wondering... maybe now that he's had a taste of what else is out there, you think he's realizing that what he left behind was the best of all? Yeah, I know, I know... NO EXPECTATIONS!! :twobyfour:
Sounds like a perfect day. Glad hubby was being a good companion. I think I would just let him know how much you and the kids enjoyed the family time.
As for your home, I hope you can get that worked out. Do you work outside of the home? If not, maybe you could get a job until the payments are caught up.
The consensus is to not go the route of mentioning the changes. I guess he could attribute it to his new life and and extra baggage chick so I think you guys are probably right.
Will thank him for a wonderful and leave it at that.
So I just sent this email to H:
"I just wanted to thank you again for an absolutely great day at Disneyland. It truly was one of our best trips there. We all had so much fun and it was a relaxing time for the kids and I. We really enjoyed your company and having you with us, it was nice family time too. We'll see you at the game if you can swing it and if not on Sunday. I think we should be home around 1:30."
So last night he says text me when you get home so I know you made it, and I say well it's going to be late, he says I don't care. So I text him and say were home and thanks. H texts back ok, goodnight. That's the 2nd goodnight I've gotten in 2 days. Ok NO expectations. He could have said he was away on business and was able to say goodnight so I'm not going to expect more, doggone it!
I wonder how he was able to spend the day with us? I wonder if he told her the truth, lied or half truth? Doesn't matter but It sure makes my brain itch. LOL
Hey you guys, H just send me a text page. Says, "I had a really good time at Disneyland."
I said me too. I enjoyed having you come. Hmmmm.
I EXPECT NOTHING, I EXPECT NOTHING, I EXPECT NOTHING....say it with me my hommies! Except maybe for him to run hot and cold, darn!
I am the thermostat and not the temperature! I am the lighthouse and not the ship at sea!
If/when you go to plan B, he's going to feel like a truck ran over him.
Serves him right.
Yes i sure hope it hits him like a truck. I so wish I was one of those people who's spouse has the light go one before the plan B.
So he just called me a few minutes ago and asked how DD17 is after her Dr. appointment for her tonsils. I say fine and we talked for and 1 hour and 15 minutes. Mind you, we haven't talked on the phone but 3 times is 5 1/2 months. We talked about all kinds of stuff. His job and how the company is doing. We started to talk about financial stuff. I tell him a few apologies for misunderstandings in finances and he says, I don't want you to apologize about that stuff its not your fault. He also says hey you know you can call me on my personal cell phone you know. I say oh well when you changed your number without telling me I figured you didn't want me to call it. He says well the kids call it and I say I know but I just didn't want to make it hard for you. He says your not.
Then he asks what I'm doing for Thanksgiving. I say well I have not gotten that far what are you going to do. He says I'm either spending it with you guys or alone. I say well why would you spend it alone instead of the one your with? He then says I go where I want when I want and I don't care what anyone says.(What the heck does that mean??) I say well I haven't gotten that far yet I don't know what we're doing. I say the ideal would be to spend it with you but this is not any easy situation for me. HE then says well why don't we go one Holiday at a time. I say that sounds good. I then say how about it I let you know that it's getting too much for me can I do that? He says yes you can tell me. (Did anyone hear my disclaimer for my October 31st Plan B letter??)
He then says, what are you guys doing tonight? I say nothing what about you? He says nothing gonna go to bed early so I can go to work tomorrow.
Funny he just texted me his personal cell #. I respond "Thanks! Wow I have the secret # to the bat phone, I'm kidding. Although you can model the bat costume if you want to." He says I don't have one. I say too bad you should go get one and he replies I will have to look into that. (Flirting is ok isn't it. I mean he is MY H, and we are still kinda married-oops oh sorry we are still FULLY married LOLOLOL)
Anyways I thought how odd he would spend an hour and fifteen minutes on the phone with me and then send me his personal cell #.
BUT I remember NO EXPECTATIONS and he's gonna run HOT and COLD.
Can I just say I miss my H. {{sigh}} One day at a time. Well just finished my 1st week you guys. 3 weeks left of Plan A....I'm working hard and praying hard.
I have been reading your thread and I am so happy for you. Its weird getting excited for someone you dont know because how well its going.
BTW keep saying that to yourself about no expectations. I truly believe thats where my plan A failed last year. If I wouldnt have had the expectations, I wouldnt have been so upset when I didnt get the return when I thought I should, and well it was down hill from there.
Good luck, seems like you are doing an awesome job.
Well thanks. It sure isn't easy but I keep reminding myself.
Where oh where has lil doggie gone? J/K Just giving you a shout out hello!
Hi ya,
I am around, just havent had anything to add to the great advice you've been getting, thanks for missing me tho' Im flattered
Also my dad is here from Australia. I feel kinda rude being on MB for long periods of time so I pop on and off.
Awe have fun with the family! Just wanted to say Hi!
Great convo - I still remember the first time AJ chatted with me on the phone, after less than 2 months of ignoring me as much as he could. I kept wanting to hang up cuz I was so jumpy talking to him that long, but resisted the urge, fortunately.
This is going fabulously!
Ok ya'll here's my Plan B rough draft letter ready for your critiquing. Please read over and let me know what could be changed. I tried to keep it short but it was hard. Does it need to be shorter?
Dear Hubby Pooh,
This is by far the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so very much and wish more than anything in the world for our marriage and family to be restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. We have been together since junior high and we have experienced so much together. When I think back it makes me laugh at all we've gone through together. So much laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and hurts me to know that.
I know that there is nothing so far gone that cannot be fixed if we both work at it. I know it can work a second time because we already did it once. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
Over the last 5 months I have been doing a lot of soul searching and learning on how a marriage and wife should be. I am not perfect yet but I've learned a lot and continue to do so. I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children. I have grown as a person and have made many changes over these many months. I am sure if we both work together that we can overcome our problems and we can finally have the marriage we both truly want and need.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you and to hear your voice and see you again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I've have tried to stay connected and be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, being seeing you these last 4 weeks it has become so excruciating for me.
I love you so much but that love I have for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
I am separating from you in order to protect myself from further pain until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family, free from your entanglements with another woman. I still love you so much and I am not rejecting you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband. It is unbearable knowing I have to share you with someone else. If I keep going like this, there will be nothing left in my heart for us. If I keep going like this it will kill my all my love for you so I want to protect that.
Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate directly with me. You may see and talk to the children as much as you like but no contact during pick up and drop off times please. I will try to work with you as much as I can for visitation. I will assume that you are just going to continue the finances as we have been. I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way, but please remember at ANY moment that I would much rather rebuild our marriage. Any communications about the kids and finances can be handled by Mutual friend. He will relay all information to me. Please do not call me, text me or email me until you are ready to reconcile.
I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady. I want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.
The door is open and the path back to your family is simple: separate and end all contact with the Toad for the rest of our lives, (I will help you write the letter to her and send it), and then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again. I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are with the Toad.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
Hey T2L,
Gee, you're up late...at least in my time zone!! I'm doing homework, what's your excuse?
LOL!
These two things in your PBL stood out to me:
Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate directly with me.
Please do not call me, text me or email me until you are ready to reconcile.
This is....hmmmm....how do I put it? This seems too strong...it's my understanding that ultimatum-type wording is a no-no for a PBL because it comes across as punishment.
Granted, PBL's are viewed that way from WS's anyway, even when you avoid this type of wording. But I wouldn't leave it in there.
I might be wrong but this is what was conveyed to me when I had to draft mine. In fact, a very nice vet here did a LOT of editing for me.
Yeah, and WS-Gray still viewed it as a punishment for him, LOL! I found out when we went back to court the second time and had to testify about it on cross.
Have a great night!
Charlotte
I dunno Charlotte. I had Marshmellow helping me and I also had something about don't contact until your ready to end the A.
To put it bluntly, he got a choice or NC with her or NC with me.
The PBL in SAA also mentions that Jon will avoid seeing or talking to Sue. Everything had to go thru the friends.
Lil
I have been doing a lot of soul searching and learning on how a marriage and wife should be
I thought it was a great letter but I wonder about this sentence. He may interpret this as meaning that you want him to be the 'husband he should be' and he may think he can't be that. In reality what you want is for both of you to be yourselves but to be the best selves and spouses that you can be. Personally I'd rethink the phrasing of that but I'm not sure to what.
Hi T2L,
I read your plan B letter. It is good, IF your H was NOT a WS.
Since he is, he may not be able to digest all your info.
I suggest you shorten the letter a lot. Hit on the points straight forward and in a condensed method. I know you want to cover all your points but a WS has a 'little brain'. They don't comprehend much and their attention span is limited. Sad but true.
Identify your personal and marital boundaries. Enforce them. Expect him to buck your decision.
Ws' are all about control. Remove yourself from his realm of control and you will be able to take your life back. Not completely but enough to give you the strength you need to move forward.
There are tools you can use to help keep you focused. Create your personal support group, put them on alert. When a BS is in plan B, the BS benefits greatly from their support group.
Since you have a family, know that communication on some level may be necessary. Determine who in your support group can be your intermediary if needed. In my case, my H refused to use an intermediary, so I resorted to e-mails on only 3 subjects: Mail, $$ and child visitation. For me e-mails helped me NOT hear his anger or babble as much. It also left a record I could use as proof if I needed.
I realized that I can not control the WS but one of MY personal boundaries was NOT to have the OP in my life and then NOT to have a WS in my life. That's a big boundary. Implementation of plan B helped in this regard.
I also used tools like reverse babble when the WS talked stupid, reverse babble helped me give him back his guilt. It takes some practice but eventually you learn how to handle stupid WS tactics without getting hurt.
Hope this helps. I don't post much on MB for a variety of safety reasons but your thread caught my attention.
Take care,
Orchid
Please do not call me, text me or email me until you are ready to reconcile.
Initial surrender at the end of Plan B should be handled through the intermediary. You don't have direct contact until you can see that he is serious.
I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are with the Toad.
Delete this as your last sentence. Evil amphibians are not to be his final thoughts in this. Blech!
Yes I was up kinda late, but I am in Southern California so it wasn't as late as it looked. I just wanted to start working on my letter and once I got started I didn't want to stop.
Although still a bit long but i shortened it by 1/3. Took all your suggestions. Let me know what you think.
Dear Hubby Pooh,
This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss our laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so.
If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you and to hear your voice and see you again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.
I ask that you please respect my decision to separate from you this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I long for you and want you in my life more than anything. I want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad and (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it) and then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.
I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
very good letter
love this ~~~>
"the Toad"
I dunno Charlotte. I had Marshmellow helping me and I also had something about don't contact until your ready to end the A.
To put it bluntly, he got a choice or NC with her or NC with me.
The PBL in SAA also mentions that Jon will avoid seeing or talking to Sue. Everything had to go thru the friends.
Lil
Hi Lil,
Yeah, and I had MelodyLane.
T2L covered the "no contact with me until the A is over," but in a less confrontational way in the last paragraph.
It was more subtle and much better that way.
Charlotte
T2L,
This one is really good even though it is still a little long. But all of the paragraphs are so good it would be hard pick and choose!
The only thing I would add would be something along this line:
"I am committed to our marriage. I believe we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have ever experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart and soul."
Charlotte
It's getting better.
IMHO, to be more effective.....let him know you AND your children miss your REAL husband and father.
RE: Do you really want a WS back? Really?
Also, your wants isn't at play here, it is the needs of you and your family that are paramount.
Project it as a letter being written in behalf of the wife and the family.
Brief mention of the care part. I would leave out how much you love him. He may think you love him as a WS and that w/b very confusing.
You are right to let him know this isn't about hurting him. It isn't about him at all. It is about you having to protect your love and your family from a WS, just as he would have protected his family from an intruder into your home. Let him know that the presence of a WS and OW are like thieves in your home.
For me I found it vital to show him in a split personality form. I let mine know that H was welcomed but WS was not. That I had to put up these boundaries because the WS in him was disrespectful of the family.
After I had let plan B go on and it had it's required effect, I asked the Ws to go get my H so I could tell him goodbye. It was a tearful event and even put him to tears. It was the beginning of the end of the A and still it took a while.
Effective planning and knowing your boundaries are key to your survival. Don't worry about hurting the feelings of a WS. They have none. Why? Because they also have no morals or love of family.
Work on getting your H back instead.
Hope this helps.
L.
You have some very good ppl advising you and anything I suggest, I defer to their advice if they think otherwise. I like your latest letter. I tend to agree that you should be as little confrontational as possible, because IMHO your H is really close to coming back to you. (So lil had ppl advising her to be more confrontational than Dancing did? That's funny.
) Anyway I have two comments:
1- I would change "wish" in the 1st paragraph to "hope".
2- I *might* consider saying something like, you are working on addressing the ways you fell short in the marriage, and you want to make those changes for yourself regardless of what he decides. But your letter is already long enough, so I'm not sure I'd add that.
You're doing a totally awesome Plan A. Don't forget to keep that up. My money is still on him coming back *before* PB starts, especially since he's already wanting to make Thanksgiving plans with you.
I bet that while you're doing such awesome Plan A stuff, OW is LBing him like crazy, making demands on his time, not liking him spending time with y'all, etc.
My money is still on him coming back *before* PB starts, especially since he's already wanting to make Thanksgiving plans with you.
I don't think so... I think PB is going to have to be implemented first.
The shortest PB I've seen in my time here was Zuj (previously Juz), whose WH lasted about 2 hours.
Now my money is on a longer Plan B in this case - 2 hours is pretty hard to improve on, but I will be very very surprised if it drags on. You never can tell for sure till it happens, but WH is as good a candidate as any for a short time till surrender.
The chances that he will end this before Plan B are negligible. It could happen, but is not likely.
It's getting better.
IMHO, to be more effective.....let him know you AND your children miss your REAL husband and father.
RE: Do you really want a WS back? Really?
Also, your wants isn't at play here, it is the needs of you and your family that are paramount.
Project it as a letter being written in behalf of the wife and the family.
Brief mention of the care part. I would leave out how much you love him. He may think you love him as a WS and that w/b very confusing.
You are right to let him know this isn't about hurting him. It isn't about him at all. It is about you having to protect your love and your family from a WS, just as he would have protected his family from an intruder into your home. Let him know that the presence of a WS and OW are like thieves in your home.
For me I found it vital to show him in a split personality form. I let mine know that H was welcomed but WS was not. That I had to put up these boundaries because the WS in him was disrespectful of the family.
After I had let plan B go on and it had it's required effect, I asked the Ws to go get my H so I could tell him goodbye. It was a tearful event and even put him to tears. It was the beginning of the end of the A and still it took a while.
Effective planning and knowing your boundaries are key to your survival. Don't worry about hurting the feelings of a WS. They have none. Why? Because they also have no morals or love of family.
Work on getting your H back instead.
Hope this helps.
L.
Can you explain a little more of what you're talking about? Forgive me, I'm a lil slow at times, but I'm hearing you I just need more detail in what I need to convey.
BTW did you reconcile?
Neak, you are probably right, you've seen a whole lot more here than I have. I admit I may be taking the long shot bet. But we can't all pick the same square in the pool, can we?
The important thing is, the odds are looking good that he *will* come back, IMHO.
Well, we could all pick the same square, but if we were all right we'd have to spread the pool awfully thin, lololol. And really, I hope you're right.
And we do both agree he will almost certainly come back. I'd bet a whole bag of mint Ghiradelli squares on it.
Gosh darn it I hope your all right!!!!
Well done with day 8. H came to sons football game sat with us. Took us to lunch for Mexican food and hung out for about 2 hours. Will be at the house tomorrow for son's actual bday. Small party with 3 mutual friends from church.
Talked a little on the phone in the evening abt bday presents. I miss him and that's the hardest part of this. HE kisses the kids and tells them he loves them. Wish it was me as well-I know-NO EXPECTATIONS.
Next Friday he is going to the pumpkin patch with us. HE wants to just jump in the car and drive and find one with out an agenda. I'm game! That's less time with OW.
I can do this. The more I see him the more I dread the Plan B. Don't worry though I've made up my mind, it's an absolute as I know he will eat cake forever and ever and ever.
Back tomorrow to update how it goes....Thanks for all your help guys!
T2L covered the "no contact with me until the A is over," but in a less confrontational way in the last paragraph.
It was more subtle and much better that way.
this is true
The shortest PB I've seen in my time here was Zuj (previously Juz), whose WH lasted about 2 hours.
Piffle. Your Plan B would've ended in 5 minutes or less if he could only have found you! :RollieEyes:
Poor planning on her part does not rob her of the record.
Well guys, I'm sneaking on. He's been here since 10:30 this morning its now 7:30 PM. He picked up son and took him for birthday breakfast and shopping trip. Then went by Lowe's for more stuff to fix around the house.
HE had brunch with the 3 church friends. Washed my car and fixed more stuff. He is now hanging out with son.
I'll update more when he leaves......
Ok he's gone. He spent the whole day here. How on earth is he doing that? How on earth is he explaining it to OW? How on earth is he explaining all this time? It's confusing. Anyways thanked him for washing my car and doing chores and for being here for my son.
So I ask him if he's going to make it out this way anytime this week and he says probably not as he is working away from the area(about 1 1/2 hours away). I say Okay we'll see you on Friday. Would you like to have dinner here before we go to the pumpkin patch, he says sure.
So we won't see him until next Friday. What do you think I should do this week being I won't see him. I have pretty much given a lot of admiration as much as I could, daily almost via email. Someone suggested laying back for a few days. He has seen a lot of us. What do you guys think?
Hey sent him a few responses to his text and added a few flirts. Is flirting ok?? I mean I can't exactly meet his highest need, so is flirting ok?
Hey sent him a few responses to his text and added a few flirts. Is flirting ok?? I mean I can't exactly meet his highest need, so is flirting ok?
I think so. In fact believer once told me to try to refer to a particular event.
From what I've seen on MB some WS's seem to respond to flirting via text better than IRL
T2L:Can you explain a little more of what you're talking about? Forgive me, I'm a lil slow at times, but I'm hearing you I just need more detail in what I need to convey.
BTW did you reconcile?
Orchid: Your plan B letter s/b written to the WS to show him your conditions of NC, to give him your boundaries and conditions to return.
You can mention in your letter how your miss your real H and remember the loving times together. That part should be brief.
Remember he w/b in the WS character when reading your letter.
Your H currently has a split personality. The turmoil he is suffering due to his A and selfish attitude is what he is trying hard to lay on you and the family. He wants you all to take his guilt and blame so he can pursue the A and all that goes along with it.
The questions for you now are:
1. Do you want to enable his A and selfish attitude?
2. Are you willing to settle for the crumbs of his attention?
3. Have you identified your personal and marital boundaries?
4. Are you ready to implement those boundaries?
5. Do you have a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience BEFORE you implement plan B?
6. Are you ready to handle his adverse reaction or lack of action to your plan B?
Settling for the 'hours or minutes' he may spend and the few chores he does for you isn't a good sign. It's bait.
In time you will reach a turning point where you will not settle for those types of attention crumbs. You will reach a stage will that type of action will actually anger you.
Why? Because that type of conduct (i.e. spending time with the family, doing chores around the house, etc.) should not be note worthy occasions. They should be the norm. That is his job, obligation and responsibility.
No one is patting you on the back for doing your part, are they? Then why should he get praised for what he ought to be doing?
I know this sounds harsh but when you go to plan B it should be because you have completed your plan A improvements, identified your personal and M boundaries and are now strong enough to move forward without the WS. It is your attempt to get back your H and NOT the WS.
So here is the final question:
Do you want your H back or the WS?
L.
I like your second draft. It's still kind of long, not sure what I'd cut though.
The only thing that bugs me about it (but you may like it and if you do then by all means leave it as it is):
I ask that you please respect my decision to separate from you this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances.
The word separate might carry legal connotations with it. He might think you're filing for a legal separation. I'm not sure it would be a totally bad thing if he did - might make his heart drop to his boots. But if it were me (and it's not), I'd say something more like:
I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances.
So are you saying that my mention of writing the no contact letter to the OW does not properly give him the conditions?
It does say then we can discuss what it will take to secure the family. So are you saying the conditions should be listed in the PBL? I have asked for help in what to list as conditions.
AT the beginning right after discovery he did lash out really bad and dump it all on me and try to make me feel guilty, but I heard that that was normal for them to say that stuff so I ignored it even though it did hurt.
I do think it's worth mentioning my "real" H because in the few weeks leading up to my discovery I would look in his eyes and say where is my H can you tell him to come home and he would say this is your H and maybe you just don't like who I am. But it wasn't he was horribly mean and insulting of in especially in front of others and he had never done that.
Answers to your Questions:
1. Do you want to enable his A and selfish attitude?
NO Absolutely not!
2. Are you willing to settle for the crumbs of his attention?
NO Absolutely not!
3. Have you identified your personal and marital boundaries?
IDK can you explain??
4. Are you ready to implement those boundaries?
I think so I just need to identify them
5. Do you have a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience BEFORE you implement plan B?
I feel my mind is as clear as it's going to be for the situation. I've been doing nothing for 5 months so starting the Plan A 10 days ago has helped. I'm learning patience but my determination is higher than my patience, does that count?
6. Are you ready to handle his adverse reaction or lack of action to your plan B?
Truthfully I'm not sure I'm ready to handle it. I wish he would just pull is head out of his a** now, but like I said my determination is higher. I'm wondering if he is going to be horrible again like he was after discovery.
I cut him off at the discovery and If I went through it once I guess I can do it again. But I definitely don't want to but I am going to.
Yeah I'm fully aware of the bait, it is difficult. I didn't miss him like I miss him now. And I know I will have anger so that's what give me determination to go to Plan B.
I agree it should be normal for him to do these things. He's even doing more than what I had asked, a bunch of little home projects. It does make me wonder why. Guilt I guess?
But I have been giving him praise as Admiration was one of his top emotional needs so I'm doing that for my Plan A.
I have only been in Plan A for 10 days so I don't think I have completed the improvements, and I am assuming the improvements are in the way I care for H by meeting his emotional needs correct?
Again I'm not sure what my personal and marriage boundaries are, as silly as that sounds. What would be examples of that?
Final answer: I want my H back and not WS
Here is PBL again with some of the changes ya'll have suggested.
I have not listed marriage boundaries and actual conditions on the PBL. I have no clue, I am not sure what they should be to even list them.
When and if he decides to come home what conditions do you all suggest? I need everyone's input on that.
Anyways read again, I can't shorten it any, I've looked over it several times. I'll ask him to read the whole thing......
Dear Hubby Pooh,
This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so.
If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.
I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I want you in my life more than anything. I long for you and want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it). Then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.
I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
Hi T2L,
I think you should change the "tense" here...to make it less confusing:
I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
To:
I wanted to be close to you, even under these extremely painful circumstances.And maybe add a sentence before the sentence that begins with: [...Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble ...] that reads: "I am requesting that you no longer contact me directly because it is too painful for me."
Just for clarification. It's kinda weak there.
Charlotte
Just added your suggestions thanks.
Boy this Plan A is easier and harder at the same time. Easier because I like meeting his emotional needs but harder because now I see him and talk to him and before I didn't. I guess Plan B will help me with that(outta sight outta mind).
He texted me last night after he left. Said I had a great time with the kids today....Uggg!
I was here too ya know. Although, I am happy for the kids, especially my son. Then I sent him an email saying thanks for all the stuff he did being sure to add the admiration's. HE says no problem, the drive home is hard but I'm glad to see the kids!! Is he trying to clue me in that he's just around for the kids and has no interest otherwise??
I know-NO EXPECTATIONS. I wish there were guarantees but I know there are none. I guess it can't get any worse, I've already lost my marriage with him living with her.
Sorry venting...feeling down.
I know I need to stop...
No expectations, no expectations, got that?
Thanks
, I know, I keep reminding myself. NO EXPECTATIONS. Keep going, no expectations, focus, keep going, focus and NO EXPECTATIONS.
Well nothing new. I wanted to kinda stay quiet today with no contact for a few days from H but had to talk with him as there are fires near us so had to update him.
Our neighbors came over and said they might get things together just in case they evacuate during the night so we told H. Of course he said he'll keep his phone on. Oh Thanks, that will help with you an hour away. Yes that's sarcasm your hearing, sorry.
So DD17 is wondering if I should extend Plan A a few extra weeks. My Pastor had said maybe I should go just a bit longer, but I did explain the cake eating thing and he said oh I see. I have contemplated it but in all honesty don't know what to do. If I cut off at Halloween it will be 28 days of Plan A(and that's a Plan A with him living with the OW). I could extend a week or 2 but then that gets real close to Thanksgiving.
He said last week he was going to spend Thanksgiving with us or alone, which I told him made no sense and why wouldn't he spend it with his significant other to which he respond because its with you guys or alone. Why isn't he spending it with OW?
Why is he putting that on my head. Its like if I don't let him spend Thanksgiving with us then I have to feel bad he's alone.
I don't know. Who knows by the end of the month I may not want to extend. I sure hate the fact the holidays are coming, and did I mention my 19 year marriage anniversary is Dec 9th.
Lovely!
So are you saying that my mention of writing the no contact letter to the OW does not properly give him the conditions?
Orchid: You said you are writing an NC to the OW, not the WS. The WS & OPs are confused enough as it is. You can't assume they will 'get it'.
It does say then we can discuss what it will take to secure the family. So are you saying the conditions should be listed in the PBL? I have asked for help in what to list as conditions.
Orchid: List your conditions....example:
1. Safe
2. Care
3. Loyal
4. Faithful
I'd stay away from words like 'love'. Those words have no real meaning in an A. Not even to the family.
AT the beginning right after discovery he did lash out really bad and dump it all on me and try to make me feel guilty, but I heard that that was normal for them to say that stuff so I ignored it even though it did hurt.
I do think it's worth mentioning my "real" H because in the few weeks leading up to my discovery I would look in his eyes and say where is my H can you tell him to come home and he would say this is your H and maybe you just don't like who I am. But it wasn't he was horribly mean and insulting of in especially in front of others and he had never done that.
Orchid: He may or may not get mean but why wait for him to get to that level? Be proactive and take steps to protect you, your family and move forward.
Answers to your Questions:
1. Do you want to enable his A and selfish attitude?
NO Absolutely not!
Orchid: Good. How do you plan to accomplish that task?
2. Are you willing to settle for the crumbs of his attention?
NO Absolutely not!
Orchid: Good. How to you plan to make that happen?
3. Have you identified your personal and marital boundaries?
IDK can you explain??
Orchid: This one takes time. Each person has different boundaries. I will share mine. Initially the list was long. After a lot of soul searching I realized there was just a few show stoppers:
A. No OW in my life
B. No WS in my life.
4. Are you ready to implement those boundaries?
I think so I just need to identify them
Orchid: Proper identification is key. If you can read the book on Boundaries. Check it out at Borders or a book store. Can't recall the author's name but that title is now in a series and I think there is even one on Boundaries in M. The one I read was just entitled Boundaries (many years ago).
5. Do you have a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience BEFORE you implement plan B?
I feel my mind is as clear as it's going to be for the situation. I've been doing nothing for 5 months so starting the Plan A 10 days ago has helped. I'm learning patience but my determination is higher than my patience, does that count?
Orchid: A clear mind means you can be decisive in your decisions. A calm heart means you can implement those decisions without waivering. Patience allows you to take control of your plan and move based on your choices and NOT that of the A, WS or OP.
6. Are you ready to handle his adverse reaction or lack of action to your plan B?
Truthfully I'm not sure I'm ready to handle it. I wish he would just pull is head out of his a** now, but like I said my determination is higher. I'm wondering if he is going to be horrible again like he was after discovery.
I cut him off at the discovery and If I went through it once I guess I can do it again. But I definitely don't want to but I am going to.
Orchid: Then you are not ready. Your mind and heart must be in sync. When it does sync up, the BS is empowered to move forward. You know you are better than the WS. This also could mean you are not ready for plan B. Remember plan B is to protect you and your family. The WS never likes plan B. Don't expect him to.
Yeah I'm fully aware of the bait, it is difficult. I didn't miss him like I miss him now. And I know I will have anger so that's what give me determination to go to Plan B.
I agree it should be normal for him to do these things. He's even doing more than what I had asked, a bunch of little home projects. It does make me wonder why. Guilt I guess?
Orchid: Guilt, lots of guilt on his part. Do NOT let him give you that guilt. If he does stuff, say thanks and move forward. Do NOT lavish attention on him. He is doing what he ought t/b doing. If he does something above and beyond, then show your appreciation. The WS likes to get attention. Save that for your real H, NOT the WS.
But I have been giving him praise as Admiration was one of his top emotional needs so I'm doing that for my Plan A.
I have only been in Plan A for 10 days so I don't think I have completed the improvements, and I am assuming the improvements are in the way I care for H by meeting his emotional needs correct?
Again I'm not sure what my personal and marriage boundaries are, as silly as that sounds. What would be examples of that?
Orchid: Meet the needs of your H NOT the WS.
[quote] Final answer: I want my H back and not WS
Orchid: Good. You deserve your H back, not the WS. No sane person deserves a WS in their life.
Take Care,
Orchid
I think you should proceed as already planned.
Sure, you might be able to squeeze another week or two out, but at what cost to yourself? At what cost to your Love Bank? You were so drained even to start with, it's amazing you've been able to do this well.
IMO, to extend beyond what you have planned leaves you wide open to rapid Love Bank drainage, increased risk of LB's, and a physical and emotional toll you can't afford if your Plan B ends up being shorter than average.
Thems is my .02
Hi Try,
I'm gonna speak my mind, I've sort of said this before but not quite as strongly as I'm about to. I may be wrong, and if I am I'm sure some of the experts will let you know. But unless an expert says otherwise, I think you've been far too focussed on the cake-eating thing from the very beginning.
Of course he's "cake-eating" as in he's still seeing the OW, because you are just now trying to change that! But we don't usually talk about "cake-eating" unless Plan A has been going on awhile - as in, he is continuing to *enjoy* the attentions of both the OW and the BW, with no signs of wavering. As in, he's happy with the BW doing Plan A, because he gets to enjoy her attention and he also gets to enjoy the OW. No signs of wavering.
IMHO your H IS wavering.
I've been tempted to mention the possibility of extending Plan A too. (And not just cus I wanna win the pool!)
Plan B is generally begun when the BW can no longer handle Plan A; when their love starts to die from all the giving with nothing in return, or when their emotions become too hard to handle, etc (like getting depressed).
IMHO ppl don't generally stop a Plan A that is *working*, as in, their love bank isn't so far in the red they are in danger of losing their love for the WS, and the WS seems to be wavering.
It isn't done as a punishment. (Not saying that's your intention, but you want to make sure it doesn't come across that way.) Think about what your PBL says: that you *must* go NC in order to preserve the love you have for him, that would otherwise start to die. If you aren't to that point yet, do you really want to say that?
I'm not sure he IS cake-eating. I'm not sure he's enjoying time with the OW.
Here's a thought, I just now thought of it and I'll throw it out there and see what you or others think. You've been doing the carrot of Plan A. How about some of the stick? Maybe that's what you need instead of PB. The stick of Plan A happens while you are in Plan A. It's stuff like, letting there be consequences to the affair... like exposure. Or letting the OW know WH went with y'all to Disneyland, and how much fun y'all had. (Leave hints; post family pics online; have some pics "accidentally" delivered to their shared apartment or emailed to an account she will see.)
Somewhere there's the "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" post. I really think you should stop worrying about cake-eating and Plan B for awhile, and try some of the stick of Plan A.
(I'm concerned that you may have dismissed good advice from your pastor who knows you in RL, all because of the phrase "cake-eating".)
Even if she still goes to PB on the 31st, that still gives her more than 2 weeks to work with. Look how far she's gotten in 10 days, and she's not even half-way there yet.
If she gets up to the 31st and just isn't ready, I'll back her all the way. But at the same time, my experience has been that the Love Bank drains with unexpected speed at the end, in most cases.
For me, I was left scrambling to implement it 2 days early, because I just couldn't do it even one more night. The letter was finished, (but not written out), and the framework was in place for 2 days from then, so I made it, but barely. My sister came over and helped me scramble around to have everything sparkly, and all his clothes clean so he could pack them better.
I would rather see someone end their great Plan A a little while before they need to, than push it as far down the wire as I did.
Also, if T2L had been newly engulfed by the A, I would be advising her to press on longer if possible. But with 5 months of pain, anger, and hurt, and the absence of a plan, she doesn't have as much to give as if she'd just found out. She needs to guard a measure of her own resources against recovery.
It is shocking how long even a wavering WS can waver, as long as their equilibrium is not upset. In nearly every case, they can last longer than the BS, which is why Plan B is nearly always necessary.
Yes, if in two weeks she's ready to go to PB, then I agree, by all means do so.
But if she's hesitating... if she's unsure whether she should go into PB... it seems most ppl are READY for PB when they do it.
In two weeks maybe she will be.
I don't think she should go into PB on a certain date just cus that's the date she set. It's good to be ready, cus you should definitely have a *plan*, and a last awesome parting experience.
What do you (Neak) think about adding some of the stick to Plan A? (I don't know if you saw my edit, which I put in as soon as I saw you'd posted while I was writing.)
T2L needs t/b emotionally ready for plan B. While she should implement it now (WS certainly has pushed her that way), T2L needs to be ready to handle the effects of plan B. She needs to be ready to handle the fallout of the WS, the anger, the blame and the frustration, the guilt that the WS may attempt to lay on her and her family. She needs t/b strong enough to follow through with her plan B outline and implement her boundaries so the WS will believe she means to move forward with her H and w/o the WS.
JMHO,
Orchid
Somewhere there's the "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" post. I really think you should stop worrying about cake-eating and Plan B for awhile, and try some of the stick of Plan A.
.... remember - this C & S post is my interpretation of Harley's plan and is not from the horse's mouth
I wrote C & S when I became frustrated with poster after poster saying
"I'm in plan A - I've been acting NICE" Plan A is not about "acting nice" .... plan A is a strategy .... so is Plan B.
Are there any legal loose ends that need your attention before Plan B?
Also, if T2L had been newly engulfed by the A, I would be advising her to press on longer if possible. But with 5 months of pain, anger, and hurt, and the absence of a plan, she doesn't have as much to give as if she'd just found out. She needs to guard a measure of her own resources against recovery.
Five months is a very long time for a woman to deal with this abuse. Dr Harley recommends 3-4 WEEKS of Plan A for a woman. And lets emphasize this is a woman who wrote this: "Oh God! Help, Help, Help and I crazy?!?!?!!?!?"
ahem.....
She is already worn down and continued contact is more likely to harm than help. She does need to be prepared, for sure, but, IMO, she needs to do this SOON.
T2L, can you bring me up to speed? Have you written your letter, designated an intermediary, separated your finances, set up a plan for visitation, prepared to get your locks changed? I will go read some more to see if I can find this out.
Why is he putting that on my head. Its like if I don't let him spend Thanksgiving with us then I have to feel bad he's alone.
I think your timing is perfect to go into Plan B. Spending all his holidays alone will be a huge wake up call. It will be in your best interest, and your childrens, to treat him to that consequence.
I have done a lot of the stick part of the Plan. I did that upon discovery. I made sure people at his job knew, my whole family, his whole,family and church friends.
I did not allow him to blame me for becoming adulterous or allow him to manipulate me over the kids. I made no apologies for telling everyone or telling him the truth either.
So I think I have done some what the Stick part of Plan A.
I was under the understanding that while in Plan A I am to meet his emotional needs. He has a high need for admiration, domestic and conversation.
I was told that possibly I should not complement him on things he should be doing as my H, but if I don't how can I correctly do Plan A?
My Plan B letter is 90% done. Emotionally I'm half ready for Plan B.I am nervous for the fallout because I went through it before(I didn't have the book when I cut him off-I had to he was angry crazy) and I am dreading the angry accusing crap all over again. I know I can do it but going through it twice definitely is not on my list of fun things to do.
I know I probably shouldn't set a date as when to do it and more so go by when I'm feeling the love bank drain. I know for sure I cannot go much over the Halloween date by anything more than a week or two at most as this is difficult, plus as silly as this sounds I don't want to initiate Plan B right at the door of Thanksgiving.
My Plan B letter is 90% done. Emotionally I'm half ready for Plan B.I am nervous for the fallout because I went through it before(I didn't have the book when I cut him off-I had to he was angry crazy) and I am dreading the angry accusing crap all over again.
This will not be a problem because if you are in Plan B you won't be talking to him so you cant hear his anger. Have a plan in place that prevents his getting through to you.
T2L, this letter is too long. He is an emotionally detached wayward and will not be interested in reading a long love letter. Sentimentalism will be a turn off. The point of this letter is convey your conditions of return and I had to really read it hard to even find that point. It needs to be CLEAR and CONSISE and the mushy part cut way back. The mushy parts can easily be condensed down to HALF to get the point across. And I would remove tactical details such as this: (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it).
And add something like this: "commit to a plan of recovery for our marriage."
Also: I would say something about visitation and asking him to set this up ahead of time and you will have the child MEET HIM IN THE DRIVE WAY.
Can you condense these paragraphs?
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
change to something clear and CONCISE and unmistakable:
Continued contact with you has become excruciating painful because of your affair and threatens to erode the remaining love I have for you. It is because of this that I must end all contact with you. When you end your affair with HO, I would willing to discuss reconciliation. But until that happens, I would appreciate it if you would respect my wishes for no contact and not contact me unless there is an emergency.
Dear Hubby Pooh,
This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so.
If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.
I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I want you in my life more than anything. I long for you and want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it). Then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.
I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
[/quote]
T2L, can you bring me up to speed? Have you written your letter, designated an intermediary, separated your finances, set up a plan for visitation, prepared to get your locks changed? I will go read some more to see if I can find this out.
Letter 90% done, you can read it a few posts back.
Intermediary chosen, mutual friends from church.
Locks were changed the day his butt left(mostly because my 17 year old suddenly became scared and started blocking doorways and all chain locks and said she didn't want daddy to come home.)
Finances, are difficult. He is paying for everything as I have been a stay at home mom and wife for 19 years. We married straight out of high school. But if necessary I can file LS to cover that, but as of now he deposits every Friday even when I did not talk to him for the 5 months.
My children are a bit older 17 and 10. So the 17 year old will visit as she would like or not and the 10 year old is somewhat the same. But he is not visiting during the week so I can kinda get that ball rolling so its not so difficult when Plan B is going.
I think your timing is perfect to go into Plan B. Spending all his holidays alone will be a huge wake up call. It will be in your best interest, and your childrens, to treat him to that consequence.
I SO agree! It is a perfect opportunity for you to protect yourself and give him a consequence all at the same time.
And may I suggest that you take the word 'guilt' and
kick it to the curb! He lost any right to make you feel ANY guilt the minute he acted inappropriately.
YOU are the victim here. NOT him. Anything he deals with now is of his own doing.
Would you let your child go to a birthday party after he set the trash can on fire? Of course not! And you wouldn't (shouldn't) feel guilty about not letting him go - it was HIS choice to set the trash can on fire, and none of your doing.
ETA: I meant to go to PB after 2 more weeks of dazzling him with what he's missing out on.
T2L, that is not guilt you are feeling, but sadness. Guilt is your conscience's signal that you are doing something WRONG. And you are not doing anything wrong. It is ok to feel SADNESS.
I also would like to see PB in effect well before Thanksgiving. Don't underestimate what the anticipation of lonely holidays will do for a cake-eatin' wayward who really really likes your cake.
I'd like him to get plenty of time to think it over before the holiday itself.
Melody, Yeah I guess you're right it is sadness I am feeling.
Neak, I do agree that he needs to think about it over the holidays. Maybe the taste of what life without me would be like will help him. I know he can't stand doing his laundry and is sick of eating out already so maybe the holidays will be more of that. Hopefully the inconvenience and loneliness of it all will help. Why isn't he spending it with her though? Is that a good sign?
It doesn't matter if he does or doesn't spend it with his saur.
If he doesn't, he'll be extra lonely, which is good.
If he does, he'll mope (even if only in his head), thinking of his REAL family, and all the good times over the years, which is also good.
Oh I tried to shorten it more. Here's my PBL as of now. Critique away.....
Dear Hubby Pooh,
This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, hugs and kisses of course tears and struggles too.
I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible.
If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I wanted to be close to you even under these extremely painful circumstances but love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you.
I am request that you no longer contact me directly as it is too painful. I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me as I will be closing my email account tonight. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far. I will be sure to have the kids ready for your visits by meeting you in the driveway.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again and commit to a plan of recovery for our marriage securing our families future.
I loved you when I married you, love you right now and want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
Still too long, T2L, remember the goal here is to convey a MESSAGE to a detached person, not to get your feelings out. About half that length would be sufficient to get the message across. He is not going to be inclined to read through a long letter to get to the point.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like again -especially our trip to Disneyland.
I would change this to:
These last few weeks have meant so much to me, having you around so often, experiencing what my real husband was like again -especially our trip to Disneyland.
The first part makes you seem changeable, and specifying 4 weeks, well who's counting? Lol!
Ok I am having such a hard time shortening this. Look again....
Dear Hubby Pooh,
I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, hugs and kisses of course tears and struggles too.
This painful situation is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you and did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. If we both work on our marriage we can fix it, it's already worked a 2nd time. We built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.
These last few weeks have meant so much to me, having you around so often, experiencing what my real husband was like again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I wanted to be close to you even under these extremely painful circumstances. The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by sharing you and I want to protect that love.
I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you.
I am request that you no longer contact me directly as it is too painful. I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me as I will be closing my email account tonight. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far. I will be sure to have the kids ready for your visits by meeting you in the driveway.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again and commit to a plan of recovery for our marriage securing our families future.
I loved you when I married you, love you right now and want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
If he does stuff, say thanks and move forward. Do NOT lavish attention on him. He is doing what he ought t/b doing. If he does something above and beyond, then show your appreciation. The WS likes to get attention. Save that for your real H, NOT the WS.
I disagree with this.
While her WH is at her house fixing things and being attentive to the family, I think appreciation is definitely in order, especially since admiration is a top EN of his.
I don't think it would be smart to admire the work and chores and repairs he does for OW - that would be supporting the WH behavior.
But to admire and praise appropriate H-type behavior is in line with Plan A, IMO. I think she should take advantage of every opportunity she has to fill WH's ENs. This is especially important because WH is living an hour away with OW and she doesn't get tons of opportunities to make those deposits or show that she's making changes in herself (e.g. expressing her appreciation of his efforts).
Ok I was wondering. I kinda felt like that, but understood the other point as well. I really don't have many opportunities to fill his love bank and meet those top 5 needs.
It is definitely harder since he lives an hour away and with OW so I have been trying really hard to make love bank deposits so at least when I go to Plan B then hopefully he'll have enough to look back upon and consider coming back as opposed to losing it all.
Dear Hubby Pooh,
I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. These last few weeks have meant so much to me, having you around so often, experiencing what my real husband was like again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I wanted to be close to you even under these extremely painful circumstances. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, hugs and kisses of course tears and struggles too.
This painful situation is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you and did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by sharing you and I want to protect that love. I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I request that you no longer contact me directly as it is too painful. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far. Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will be sure to have the kids ready for your visits by meeting you in the driveway.
I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again and commit to a plan of recovery for our marriage securing our families future.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
Also a typo - request should be requesting.
Oops. Just fixed it, thanks. Still too long? I don't think I can cut more.
T2L, turtlehead is exactly right. Dr H would tell you to execute the best Plan A you can before you go dark. You want his last memory of you to be a GOOD ONE before you go dark. Look for every opportunity to give him admiration, etc before you go dark.
Oops. Just fixed it, thanks. Still too long? I don't think I can cut more.
I posted a rearranged and somewhat cut down version.
The rearranging puts all the similar thoughts together and makes it seem shorter. Toss it if you don't like it.
I think it's still too long (even the one I posted).
I like it. Thanks. It flows better.
Shouldn't the kids be told what's about to happen so they'll be prepared and understand WHY mom is doing this?
On another note T2L, I was thinking about your kids, particularly your son, and how he's having such a hard time. The next time he breaks down at night, could he call his dad and ask him to pray for him? Isn't that what our heavenly Father wants us to do, come to Him when we're hurting? Your husband's role and duty as father IS to lead his family (even though he's doing a poor job of it now.) Since your husband was an associate pastor (right?) perhaps this will tweak that place in his heart that he's tried to so hard to close off.
This was the toughest part for my FWH. While he was away he said if felt like God was chasing after him. He was.
Just a thought.
My oldest child DD17 knows and likes the plan, but I have not told my son 10, because he may tell his father. I have made small comment to my son saying that this is very hard for me and that I can't do this forever because I am sharing your dad with the OW and that at some point I'm going to have to stop. So he kinda knows it won't last forever but I sure don't want him to tell his dad when Plan B goes into effect.
I don't think I can ask him to pray with my son. He has a self righteous mindset that has come in. He says I know that I am saved and I don't need to be re saved I know what Jesus has done for me. So I just keep praying for God to do a deep work and soften his heart.
I hope he feels God chasing him. I pray daily for the Lord to visit him.
This is question to all.
So once I go into Plan B, we both will be attending my son's football games. What on earth am I going to to about that, how do I handle that? I think it ends in December but that's still about 4+ weeks.
I'd get a friend to take your son and pick him up from the games, or let WH arrange to do so through the intermediaries.
It sucks, but it's only 4 weeks and for Plan B to be effective your WH needs *no* ENs being met by you. Also you need *no* interaction with him (including visual) if you are to preserve yourself from further pain.
So are you saying do not attend my son's games? My son is very close to me and would be very let down and nervous(he's been struggling with fear if I'm not around since this all happened)if I did not attend. Help! I understand the importance of Plan B and want to be sure once I go dark that I don't come out.
How about asking your son to suggest to his dad that you alternate the games you attend - one week him, one week you? That might also give your H food for thought if he realises that he'll not only lose you but part of his family life. Just an idea.
I like Tully's idea of alternating games, but I'd have the intermediary deliver the message rather than put your son in the position of messenger.
I wasn't considering your son's anxiety and of course he might well panic if you suddenly quit being part of his life where you've always been there for him.
Or is there a place you could watch the game where WH couldn't see you? From your car or something?
Yes I might be able to alternate and/or watch from a distance. I can run that by my son and see what he feels comfortable with. I just know somehow I need him to feel comfortable with it.
He said a few months into this all, "Mom thanks for not going crazy and leaving us." I said son I will never go crazy and never ever leave you someone would have to shoot me to keep me away from you and your sister.
He is in group therapy to deal with the anxiety and fear. He was always a little nervous but now its ridiculous. Nail biting and he has been sleeping in my bed since this happened. I told his Dr. and therapist and they said don't worry about it right now so I definitely will run it by him and see what makes him comfortable. I know if I explain it to him slowly he will probably consider one of those 2 choices.
I've only just seen that your son is only 9. I was thinking he was older. My eldest daughter is 10. Maybe if you told him that you love his dad and that you would like to resolve the problems between you but that it's very complex and difficult but for the moment you'd like him to trust you that what you are doing is for the best for everyone, his dad included. All that without going into detail and without promising success. That's what I did with my daughter and it seemed to reassure her.
Sorry if I'm intruding here, you seem to be doing a great job here all by yourself.
You're not intruding at all.
I love the input and perspectives from everyone. Its a huge help its hard to not second guess yourself.
Just catching up with your thread and I haven't read all the responses yet but I'll do my best to critique this.
Don't bother running on about the stuff you love and miss. He doesn't care. State your purpose of the letter and that's it.
I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so. I acknowledge my role in the problems in our marriage that contributed to your vulnerability for an affair
Keep it simple, direct and to the point.
[quote]If we both work on our marriage we can fix it.
It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time. Same thing - remove the fluff.
I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.
After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.
He'll have stopped reading before all this. If not, he'll just see more fluff.
The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.
Just cutting out what is more or less a reiteration of your first sentence.
I am willingwant to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.
Gives the impression that it can be his idea.
ur friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to facilitate all communications regarding help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.
Strike that last sentence as he could take it as a dare to drop whatever finances. On second thought, strike anything to do with finances - don't give him any ideas.
I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I want you in my life more than anything. I long for you and want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.
You're probably catching on by now.
The door to my heart and back to the family is open when as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it). Then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.
I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.
I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live
This is okay if you have signed cards like this in the past. Otherwise, shorten it down to "your loving wife" or something like that.
Remember, right now he thinks he loves her. He won't read 1/3 of the way down this lengthy letter and if he does, he'll consider it drivel.
I just wanted to say that I agree with Tabby's critique. Make the letter as short and sweet as possible. It'll have more impact.
Did you happen to read turtlehead's revision on my PBL on the previous page? I kinda like that version.
So guess what H did last night. Of course he lives with OW and for obvious reasons does not talk with me at all for anything. He buys DD17 a car
! He buys her a car when 3 months ago he accused me of not paying his credit cards off. Mind you our financial situation is difficult as is with split households.
Then last Sunday he spends 150$ on son for b-day on 3 items at the mall. When I spent 150$ over the summer to buy son his school clothes he threw a fit, and I bought double what he did.
It's like what? I'll go but all this stuff for the kids so it can ease my guilt? Help me feel better about my double life? So I'll look like the hero to the kids instead of the poop head that I'm acting like?
I am biting my stinking tongue to not LB! Lord help
me I feel like I am the only sane person in this house. Did I mention that he wants DD17 to make payments and she doesn't even have a job yet and the car he had her trade in was paid for?
Okay I've ranted
, I'm done! I just needed to vent, I feel better now. :crosseyedcrazy:
I just wanna scream that old commercial! Stop the Insanity.
Okay g'night!
Hi T2L,
After I posted I saw the other one. She's done something similar. Basically, cut out every thing that isn't specifically to the point of the letter. Your points are:
1. I want to recover the marriage.
2. The following conditions must be met in order to do so:
(a) The affair must end
(b) You must agree to no contact for life
(c) You must commit to working on recovery
(d) Any other condition you want to add.
3. Until such a time these conditions are met, there is to be no further contact.
You can personalize each point, but not to the extent that they take up several paragraphs a piece.
Oh, and your news about the car, this is just more evidence of his hero complex he clearly has. I'm still of the mind that Plan B sooner rather than later is your best bet. He is so cake eating right now it's unbelievable.
He buys her a car ... Did I mention that he wants DD17 to make payments and she doesn't even have a job yet and the car he had her trade in was paid for?
Last night on the radio, I think it was Focus on the Family, they were discussing responsible family finances. (I'm almost never in the car at that time, so usually I wouldn't have heard this - now I know why I did!) They were talking about parents who got their kids in financial trouble by "giving" them too much, like loaning them lots of money that the kids couldn't pay back (like to buy a house or start a business)... and they specifically mentioned a father who "bought" his daughter a car - except she was supposed to make the payments on it - and she was in tears because she couldn't afford the payments!!!
:RollieEyes:
Where you live, do you have any laws like buyer's remorse - where you have a certain amount of time to back out from major purchases - or that would require your approval for her to enter into such a contract? If she didn't sign the contract, does she have to make the payments?
I think you are well within your rights to back out of this "gift" if you want. This is not a good time, financially for your family or in general (!) to buy new cars unnecessarily! (I personally love our family's two older-but-paid-off cars.)
You can stand firm and maintain boudaries w/out LBing and w/out breaking Plan A. Plan A isn't about being a door mat.
And yes, you ARE the only sane adult around.
Don't EVEN worry about him "buying their love". Kids see right through that and it really pisses them off. Mine did, but I didn't know it. They were too polite to say what they were thinking - but boy I sure got an earful later!
Did I mention that he wants DD17 to make payments and she doesn't even have a job yet and the car he had her trade in was paid for?
Hang on, now - WHY did she agree to trade in her paid-for car? That was dumb on her part as well as his. I'd let her own this problem. Yeah, he's her Dad and yeah, she probably trusts him or felt pressured by him -- but she need to learn to be assertive and stand up for herself when she knows the person in a position of authority is wrong. That doesn't mean she has to be ugly to them, she can just take a firm, non-wavering "No, thank you" stance.
I think the buyers remorse idea is a great one under the circumstances. I don't see this as baling her out of the consequences of a bad decision, I see it as giving her access to tools she otherwise would not know about.
Well I did kinda give her an earful when she cam home, I mean she's just a few months short of 18.
She had mentioned this car idea her dad had about 2 weeks ago. I told her please try to find away to not do this. I told her I want nice things for her but in its right time.
She said she tried to say not now dad. She said mom you know how dad is I couldn't really get out of it. The car is not brand new but definitely a lot newer, 2006.
She did not sign the papers, he did. I did send him an email about adding debt to the household and my concerns about it that's all I can do at this point.
I mentioned to DD17 that this seems like a guilt offering to try and make his double life okay. She said mom it doesn't make it okay and he should have been pulling up in the driveway with me instead of going home to OW.
I'm glad to hear I'm sane. Sometimes there is so much going on and coming at you in so many directions you start to question your own sanity. There are days when I think, I can't believe this is my life. I never imagined in a million years, never did I see any of this coming.
Did I mention that he wants DD17 to make payments and she doesn't even have a job yet and the car he had her trade in was paid for?
Does this mean WH co-signed a loan for DD17?
Speak with a family law attorney. Be sure that things are arranged so that you are
not held responsible for this loan when DD17 cannot make the payments.
Who is responsible for the car insurance (certain to be higher on a newer car)?
No he did not co-sign her. He was in the process of signing the papers when he told her to come down and get it. So I am guessing it is in his name.
I froze my credit when this all started, I must be notified for any credit extended in my name so he can't use my name for any loans. He is responsible for the car insurance.
No he did not co-sign her. He was in the process of signing the papers when he told her to come down and get it. So I am guessing it is in his name.
Wouldn't hurt to ask your daughter if she signed anything. He could have signed his part and then had her sign her part after she showed up.
I'm hoping it's in his name and he's stuck with the bill. That would make OW squeal with delight, wouldn't it? Less money for her because of "his brat".
Boy, I sure hear you about questioning your own sanity. Things get impossibly crazy and then when you think you've really fallen into the rabbit hole, they just spiral even more out of the realm of reality. It leaves you wondering if you even know which way is up, what day it is, or what your own name is.
You're definitely sane (so far
)
Just asked DD17 she said she did not sign anything only her dad.
I think my DD17 thinks I am crazy :crosseyedcrazy: . She says she understands why I feel the way I do, that it is completely unfair and it doesn't make what dad did right but in the same breath she's like whats the big deal. I'll get a job and then it won't matter since I'll be paying for it. Yeah we'll see.
Okay, I am going to cast this retarded thing off and give it to God or It will ruin my whole day.
Perspective check: I am healthy, my kids are healthy, we are all safe, I'm alive, I have awesome friends, I have awesome forum friends, H is talking with kids and kids are enjoying him, h is calling more and watching kids games and being more involved, the kids and I have food, clothing and shelter, I am in Plan A, this too shall pass, and as I often say as quoted in the movie Anger Management(w/Jack Nicholson) GRUUZZ-FFAA-BBAAHHHHHHH... I think I'll go rent that tonight....
Hi Trying2live,
Regarding plan B with kids in sports...
A few years ago there was a poster, "Mortarman", I think his name was. Is he still around? Anyway, he was one of the resident experts on plan B. If I remember correctly, he went to the same sporting events as his wife, and even disciplined his kids if they were not listening to his wife at the event, while maintaining plan B.
If you do a search for posts by Mortarman over 2 years old, (there are probably more recent ones, but I haven't read here for a while), you'll hopefully be able to relate to some of the challenges he faced in plan B.
Good luck,
YS
Wonderful man, MM.
One of MB's greatest successes.
I'm still somewhat new to forums. How do I search through the threads? I'd like to search MM.
I am reading a through a few right now Lildoggie and Neak. I can read through his as well. But it sounds like MM was in Plan B and still saw spouse or was he in Plan A during that?
I know for sure I'm probably going to need to go completely dark in my Plan B as my hubby is stubborn, real stubborn.
How to search...
Scroll to the top of any page of the forum. There are several URL links in the top center - "Forum list, My Stuff, Calendar, Active topics, SEARCH, and FAQ".
Click Search.
On left side select forum. His story is probably under General Questions, but you could probably search all.
On right hand side, type Mortarman in "Display Name Search" field.
For Date Range specify "older Than" "2 Years" - clear the newer than field (2 years is just a guestimate on my part - all of his advice was very sound).
Good luck,
YS
FYI, folks, but contact during Plan B defeats the whole purpose and makes it impossible to detach from the affair. The point of Plan B is to remove you from the constant reminder of the affair.
Folks that have big holes in their Plan B like this always do much worse than those who observe strictly dark plan B's. The ones that give an inch ALWAYS are soon giving a mile, and are not in anything resembling Plan B.
Dr. Harley recommends complete and total darkness even if it means NOT going to sports games. A solid plan B is in your childs best interest.
Dr. Harley writes about this on the weekend board. I will go find the post.
I know for sure I'm probably going to need to go completely dark in my Plan B as my hubby is stubborn, real stubborn.
You are right to not play games with this, T2L. If you allow your H to get through, it will give him every opportunity to manipulate you and keep you beaten down and under control. The goal here is to protect your sanity and give you some peace of mind by removing you from the abuse. That ain't gonna happen if you go just a "little" dark.
Secondly, if you tell him NO CONTACT in your letter and then allow contact, well DUH, why should he take anything you say seriously?
He will know you don't mean it! And that is not the kind of message you want to be sending to a WS!
So, stick to your guns, T2L! Your instincts are dead right on this.
Mel how are you? Even if you don't remember me. To me you are unforgettable and all in a good with. Your brutal honest is at time harsh but always needed. Got to love it. Would you please check out usedandabused post and help him. The poor guy really needs it. Thank you.
Your Old friend Dig.
Question: if I decide to do a full Plan B, what do I do when we attend the same children's activities? Soccer games, band concerts, plays, etc. are all part of our lives. Do I ignore him completely? Is it okay to smile and wave? Do we sit together or what?
FYI, I have a mediator in mind, but I'm just not emotionally read to Plan B him yet. But I'm getting there.
ANSWER: Read my answer to "What Now!" by NZJ in the Questions about Infidelity section of the MBW Forum. It probably applies to your situation.
About 95% of affairs die a natural death within 2 years of discovery. And 70% of those 5% that survive to marriage end in divorce. Even the 30% of the 5% (1.5%) are not all happy marriages. So the odds of your husband finding happiness with his present lover is so unlikely that it's safe to say that his affair is the worst mistake of his life. But because you're married to him, it's the worst mistake of your life, too. And you didn't do anything to deserve it.
Your best plan of action right now is plan B. And you will have to make it air-tight to keep you sane. Otherwise, every casual contact, even at your children's events, is likely to take a terrible toll on your mental and physical health.
Some day, your husband may come out of the fog. And he may be ready to win you back to him again. But I would encourage you to avoid hoping for that outcome. In fact, try to avoid thinking of him at all. Start going down a new path that does not include him in any way. There's nothing more that you can do to encourage him to do the right thing. All you're left with now is to try to protect yourself from future suffering. And that means having absolutely nothing to do with your husband, possibly for the rest of your life.
Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.
Howdy, DIG! Of course I remember you! You advised me once that I was not assertive enough and should take assertiveness training! **snort**
I still chuckle about that!
Whew, that's deep! I keep having hope, is that so bad? I am honest with my self in knowing that there is no guarantees but I like to keep hope.
Yeah I know Plan B has to be airtight for me. {{Sigh}} Few more weeks left. Gurlz gotta do what a gurlz gotta do, but man oh man I'm hating the fact that ize gotsta!!!
Gots lots of blabbing for you guys.....
So my best girlfriend from high school sends me this funny kinda dirty text and so I send it to him as a flirt.
Ya'll seemed to think flirting is okay and you can probably guess his #1 need. He reads and responds...
H says "Nice where did you get that?"
I say, "From a friend"
H says, "Who? I thought you didn't like dirty jokes"
I say," you don't know em, I met em at a salsa club and you never sent me any dirty jokes anyways, I just thought you would think it was funny"
Then H says," NO stupid, I don't think a lot of those jokes are funny"
I say, " If I offended you I didn't mean to I just thought you would think it was funny"
H say, "Not offended, just not funny"
So then I changed the subject to the kids.
Okay I lied, my girlfriend sent it to me and not someone at the salsa club. I started salsa lessons after discovery to get my focus off everything and to keep living basically. Should I have just said it was my girlfriend? I he jealous?
But ya notice how at first he says "nice where did you get that" and then as he thought someone who he didn't know sent it to me it changed. I was probably wrong to lie huh. I just didn't feel like telling him it was my girlfriend.
Did I just screw it up? Did I LB? I mean I am an adult I can get jokes from anyone.
Then he was stale and rude the rest of the day. I finally say hey u ok?
Help damage recovery if needed or not??
Okay new subject....
DD17 calls him just before dinner. DD17 comes in and tells me the convo. She says Hi daddy whatcha doing> He says sitting in my car. She say where? He says at my house. DD17 says Oh, makes some small talk and then says, mom is making spaghetti, garlic bread and salad. H says spaghetti is good. DD17 says what are you eating dad? He says Ramen noodles! DD17 says ewe gross dad, and H says I put an egg in it.
OMG! Ramen? Is this woman cooking? He has HIGH domestic needs. 1st he's tired of eating Taco bell then hes tired of doing laundry. Saturday we ask him where he wants to go out to eat after sons game and he says idk you eat out so much the only thing different is home cooked food. Oh boy! One can only pray she is not high in the domestic department.
....OMG! Ramen? Is this woman cooking? He has HIGH domestic needs. 1st he's tired of eating Taco bell then hes tired of doing laundry. Saturday we ask him where he wants to go out to eat after sons game and he says idk you eat out so much the only thing different is home cooked food. Oh boy! One can only pray she is not high in the domestic department.
Notice how your DD17 was able to identify the WS' out of balance condition?
This is a good sign. Part of the WS' NOT living right is NOT eating right. Their physical and mental health take a dip downward into a spiral.
Make sure you and your family don't go there.
If the WS wants to sit in his car eating ramen let him.
You should refrain from texting and teasing him. Instead, live well as best as you can. Let him come find you not you go and tease him. The WS in him wants you to tease him so he can frustrate you with rejection, frustration and guilt. The BS in you wants his attention even if it means getting his rejection, frustration and guilt. Don't settle for less. Settle for better, more quality time and attention.
You are not ready for plan B. You go into plan B now and it will fail. Why? Because your mind and heart are not in sync yet.
JMHO,
L.
I have to second everything ML has said about Plan B, but I'd particularly like to emphasize this:
You are right to not play games with this, T2L. If you allow your H to get through, it will give him every opportunity to manipulate you and keep you beaten down and under control. The goal here is to protect your sanity and give you some peace of mind by removing you from the abuse. That ain't gonna happen if you go just a "little" dark.
Especially in your case, T2L. Plan B not only protects you from his abuse, but it also forces the WS to get all of their needs met by the OP. This in turn forces reality onto the A and helps to bring it out of fantasy land. Your WH is clearly getting a top EN met by you through his hero complex thing. You know him best, but from what you've written, it could even be his #1 EN. He almost seems to rely on it, suggesting that OW is not meeting this need (or perhaps not enough). What a shock it's going to be when that EN goes unmet, even for a short time.
Oh, and I wanted to say I agree with Orchid here with respect to refraining from teasing and flirting with him. OW is already meeting any ENs he has that flirting might address. But you have one major advantage to many BS's here - you have identified an EN that you can meet better than OW. That is your strength - go with it.
I know I am not fully ready for Plan B today. But I still have a few weeks left, and each day that goes by it gets a little easier to see myself in Plan B.
I know I can make my mind ready, ignore my heart and follow through. That's what I did before I found the SAA book. Just want to be sure I have everything set up before. Right now i am trying to get his visits with son regular so when I go to Plan B its already done. He hasn't had regular visit since we cut him off 2 times over the last 5 months(he was nuts and crazy angry so we had to), but I want to have it already set up since its hard on my son.
Is it ok to request from my H to visit 3 days a week with son? He gets irritated saying I don't know his schedule its hard(he moved and hour away with OW by choice) but my son is having a hard time now that dad is back around again. When he leaves it's hard for him, I have to re-direct a lot so he doesn't cry.
Regarding the texts, flirting, etc., I'm going to have to disagree with my much-loved friend Orchid.
If flirting is important to him, and a need he has been getting met by the OW, AND if it's a need he will allow you to meet without too much unpleasantness, then I think you should.
A very important part of Plan A is showing him that you are willing and able to meet his most important needs. Especially since you're not currently having sex, interactions of this type, laced with just a pinch of innuendo, let him know that you're going to be able to meet his needs well, not only sexual, but affection and admiration, too.
Regarding the dirty joke, I do think you crossed a line you shouldn't have crossed. The response you thouht of later would have been very good, that it was from a "friend", but without specifying gender. That would have accomplished the same thing, but with no deception on your part.
IMO, least said soonest mended. Sail on happily without mentioning it again. Ignore any remaining sulks over it. If he does ask you directly, tell him it was a female friend. (That's ok - he probably won't believe you anyway, lol.)
It was a mistake, but only a small one, and not something to stress over. Live, learn, and go on. If there's a next time, you've already figured out what to do.
Ok small mistake {{whew}} :MrEEk: .
Yes my H highest need is sexual, more so than the others. I think that this OW flirted with him and that's what started the ball rolling. I think she has a screwed up life somewhat, with her kids, and I think he was try to "help" her and then she flirted with him. This of course is my piece together of comments he's made and others I've kinda heard.
I'm not going to mention it again, and blow it off as It was nothing. I will say it was a female friend. I caught myself explaining myself to him as I would have before, but I don't want what we had before. Too much tippie toeing.
I agree with Neak, meet all the ENs you can, while you can.
I don't think the dirty joke was bad, I think lying about where you got it was bad. You could have just said "From an old friend, you don't know 'em" (unless he does).
Dishonesty is a LB, remember?
Don't kick yourself over this.
You're doing great.
I think when you go to Plan B you do need to figure out a way to take turns so your WH goes to some games and you go to some games. I've re-thought the "watching from the car" and I don't think even that is a good idea. Your WH shouldn't know you're in the vicinity, and one of the kids might let it slip. It's not fair to ask them to keep secrets for you and NOT tell their Dad, either.
Not sure how to best handle this if your son reacts with great anxiety. You can't say "My heart is too broken to see your Dad now" because then what if your son tries the same thing and says his heart is too broken to visit Dad? Your son is going to have to visit his Dad if y'all D and WH gets visitation (which he will, of course).
Can you maybe go to practices if WH is going to go to games?
It's good you're thinking through all this ahead of time.
Regarding flirting, dirty jokes and such.
Before the A I would not do either. It was my willingness to start, amoungst other things that helped Flick decide in MY favour. If SF is high on the EN list of the WH and if your not having SF, isnt this a way to show you can, particulary if it was an area you were lax in? If the OW only has this one last thing she can do and you are edging into it as well......
Just my thoughts.
Oh my gosh so I'm jumping on here really quick while the H is out with the kids. I gotta tell ya'll our convo....
So we had the plans for the pumpkin patch with the kids after he got off work today. Well he called in sick and wanted to pick up S10 from school.
He arrived here at the house an hour early so he made a list of more chores he wanted to do.
I get ready to leave and say I'll see you after a while. He says well how am I going to get in?
I say oh here take my garage door opener and go through the garage.
He says you know I still have the other one.
I say I know you do but I reprogrammed it and yours doesn't work anymore.
He then says with a grin on his face, well maybe I should reprogram it too.
I say with a grin on my face no way buddy not until your ready to come home full time so don't even think about it.
We both half laughed and changed the subject. No way Mr. H. you can't come and go as you please. So whadda ya guys think about that convo??
So anyways he texts me he has my son and they are going to Home Depot. I say have fun and was son excited. He say very excited.
So I decided to meet admiration needs, I text him this, " Awe i wish I could have seen his face. That was so sweet of you to come and do that for son. You could have taken the whole day to yourself since you called in sick and you didn't you thought of our son instead sniffle...."
yup working the admiration! Ok he's back gotta go..
GOOD JOB, girl!!!!!!!!!!1
In case you can't see it from where you are, this whole thing is going stunningly well.
Really, I hope so he's still here on couch watching a movie with son. Its 9:30 PM. I hope he falls asleep so OW can flip her lid!
I'm not sure if we'll see him tomorrow but for sure on Sunday....More to come....
Is it just me or is this starting to sound like Tst, and SMB, in that for the last month Tst just 'hung around' ALL THE TIME.......
Methinks all is not wonderful in paradise
Ok LIl help me on the abbreviations Imz lost!
I just had to gloat a bit about being right. I wrote this to Believer back in 12/05:
Believer, it is sad that you lost your love for your WH before he came to his senses, but it's his own stupid fault. You have been more patient than he would ever have the right to expect. Everyone sets their own timetable, and you gave him plenty of time to change his mind. You are wonderful, and he will be so sorry when he realizes that too late.
Notice the assurance in the word "when".
Well, I'm not going to go very far out on a limb here to say, before long your WH is going to be the one begging you to take him back, and WHEN he does, you will have the opportunity to choose whether you even want him.
Now I think your answer will be yes, but by that point the dynamic shifts and you are the one with all the power.
It's going to be a far cry from the helpless and desperate woman who started this thread. Already I don't even recognize her any more. You've come a long way.
OMG OMG OMG
you guys ok listen to this.....
So he just left. Its 10:30. I walk him to door and send son off to brush his teeth. My H reaches out and HUGS ME!!!! :crosseyedcrazy: HOLY COW!
We have had almost no contact and no physical contact for 5 1/2 months. He didn't want to let go. He held on to me. I say wow your hug feels really good and I try to pull away but he's holding me. So I finally he pulls away and I flirt with him and he says you are you soliciting me? I say well I'm sure you can understand that I'm by my self and you are not. He says how do you know that? I say I don't.(I'm wondering if he's with her?) I smile and say hey you know where I live. He says yes I do.
Then he says I'm going to be around more. I say great. He says, that's what my son wants right?(I think he was feeling my answer out) I say well no it's what we all want but it needs to be what you want. So we smile at each other and I close the door.
OMG OMG OMG. I still have NO expectations, but it sure felt good to have my H hold me just for a moment.
I don't know whats going on in affair town but I have been thinking for a few days its not all good.
Your a stunning woman, have a lovely spirit and you are doing a marvelous plan A.
Maybe its time to look a bit at some of the raising the bar type threads.
Should he come back before you go into plan B, do you know what you need to do?
BTW, what abbreviations are you after?
No I don't know what to do if he comes back before Plan B.
I need abbrv. for Tst, and SMB
Tst is a FWH here on MB and SMB is his wife.
As long as you don't get discouraged if he blows hot and cold, by all means revel in your victory. That was one hug not wasted on an evil usurper, and a great interaction besides!
If he wants to come back before Plan B, you simply pull out your list of boundaries and ask if he's ready for them. If he's not, then you have your answer. If he is, then stand back and watch him work. His actions will tell you if he's ready.
Ok so I expect him to blow hot and cold. I will keep reminding myself of this and if i don't ya'll slap me!
I do view it a s victory. I'm still shocked. Better solidify those boundaries and conditions today just in case I should be so lucky but not expecting it. Well let's see how today goes.....
So the seeds you planted in the garden are starting to sprout. Continue what you are doing, and don't have any expectations.
And wow Neak - you DID predict exactly what happened.
Ok guys back for the update. We had some converating, I asked a few questions don't know if I should have or not.
I usually don't talk about the relationship but it kinda went that way. Is questioning ok? Below is the conversation.
So he met the kids and I for lunch at a sandwich shop and we will see him again tomorrow.
The kiddies left in DD17 car and we talk for few about plans for tomorrow.
So we hug again and get ready to part and just before I get in the car H says you know there's nothing wrong with you physically that wasn't the reason.
I say I know.
He says I just have a lot to work through in myself. :twobyfour:
I say oh, so is this a you thing, not that I was perfect because I wasn't.
He says I have a lot of guilt on what I've done, the tears I've caused and the people I've hurt. Its a lot to deal with.
I then say well I don't hold anything against you.
He says how can you? And how can you do this? I know its hard for you.
I give this preemptive of Plan B statement:I agree and say yes it is hard, I am sharing you and its painful, but I will let you know when I can't do it anymore because I can't do this forever. He says ok.
I say, True it is hard for me but that's what love does, it doesn't hold guilt on you. I say maybe this needed to happen. I say sometimes the world seems like it can make you so much happier and it isn't until we're with out our family that we see its our family that makes us happy.
He says well I don't want to say that this was necessary but I see what your saying.
I then ask(maybe I shouldn't have but I needed to know)Can I ask you a question? He pauses a long time and I say are you still with OW?
He doesn't answer.
I say okay so that's my answer and I sweetly smile. He then says (here's the kicker guys) if you need to slow down let me know otherwise lets just do this for now.
Well there you have it folks we gots hot and we gots cold! I kinda kicked myself for asking but I had to know. I wonder if the old saying what you don't know won't hurt should have applied to this.
Can I just say that I can't stand that tramp, okay thanks I needed that.
Feedback suggestions anyone, candy, popcorn , peanuts....oh sorry wrong sport. LOL Ok gotta laugh so it can rub off the minor sting......
Well of to salsa class back in a few hours.....
Why does he not love you? I mean, he loves you so little he is fiddling with another woman.
How can you stand a man, you are married to, and had kids with, NOT loving you?
You cant stand the tramp, you mean,,,,your trampy husband??? **edit**
Hmmmmm. Mr. Cakeater himself................
Always assume that he is STILL with the OW. Don't ask. And don't do relationship talk.
By the way, be sure to read the goddess thread so you can brush up on all the stuff there.
My suggestion is to go to your dance class and have lots of fun. And be sure to go out with friends and stay busy. Keep Plan A'ing, but might be time not to be so available.
1. He does not love you
2. He does not respect you
3. He does not value you
4. He has not loved you for quite some time.
5. He does not care for you
6. He does not even treat you as well as a good friend
7. He is not honest with you
8. He is filthy
9. He is selfish wanting you and the other woman
10. He could care less about you
This man would not treat a DOG as badly as he is treating YOU. Do you see it yet?
YOU are treated worse than any DOG!
Stella, Are you just trying to harass this woman or do you think what you said is helpful to her? Or are you just having another bad day and picked this woman to take it out on?
Trying2Live, You are do an amazing plan A. Keep up the good work and don't let comments from haters get to you. Your H does love you, he is just a bit lost right now. Like the others have said, I think he will be home soon. Him feeling guilt for the pain and tears is a good thing.
I do appreciate everyone posting and helping me but I was kinda wondering, I felt a bit of unresolved pain there in that advice, which I can understand completely. I do get that he is selfish, most walk a ways are.
I am concentrating on not expecting anything and for him to run hot and cold.
Believer Yup there's the cake eater himself. I agree, we see him tomorrow for breakfast and he's gonna work on my brakes. Think I'll drop off for the rest of the week. Believer do you think if he texts goodnight or calls I should respond or answer?
I know he has an amount of care for me, but more care for himself.
The hug he gave me last night, IMHO was genuine. I have been with this man since the 8th grade. Yes it might have been cake eating some too, but I felt genuine care, and I don't feel I'm completely deceived, I am fully aware that what all of us here are doing comes with no guarantees.
TTLIG, Thanks for the encouragement I can use all I can get right now. I am just Plan A'ing my boo-tay(LOL) as best I can. I am surely dreading Plan B but understand the necessity of it for both of us. Just a few weeks left.
I think for me the best part of Plan A whether or not it works out for my family is it has allowed me to gain a love for him i didn't have 6 months ago. To be able to look into his eyes with pure love, maybe purer than before and hopefully whether there is reconciliation or not I can keep that, Its better than hate, although hate may have its place, but I'd rather be consumed by love than by hate.
Salsa class was fun and challenging and helped me burn off some of the day. More Plan A tomorrow.....
Stella, have you noticed yet that your personal turmoil frequently finds an outlet in bashing hurting BS's and vulnerable new FWS's? Most of what you say is true, but said in the most hurtful way possible, and in a case where no 2x4 is needed, at all. I sympathize with what you've been through/are going through, but that is no excuse to engage in destructive behavior.
T2L, this was great. Even your question about the OW was fine, because of how well you handled it. If you had blown up at him and LB'd, that would have been bad, but you didn't. You were classy and gracious, and left him put on the spot and feeling like a heel (for some peculiar reason).
I even liked the part about how you can't do this forever. Now he'll feel like he's got the sword of Damocles over his head. Oh wait, he does.
Wanting to be around lots, coming over extra, all this is super. You are doing awesomely, and I'm really excited for you.
B, I had a good chuckle when I saw that. Am I good or what? ROFL! I will admit to having a little secret hope even back then that you would reconcile. Even now, I'd jump up and down and cheer if it happened, but hey, I'm happy for you now, too. You've been such a calm, steadying influence for so many years, and any man is lucky to have you.
Are people supposed to BABY thier cheating cake eaters until well...until.....WHEN?
Why can't they just operate in the world of TRUTH???
Why lie to themselves and others about how the cheater really does love them?
StellaKat,
I hear the pain you have but let me explain. Having rarely spoken or seen my H(because I cut him off for about 5 months), Yes he is cake eating. I just implemented Plan A on October 3rd, I want him to eat cake. That's my Plan, so it's working.
If he goes by our last interactions over the last 5 months(before I found the book made the changes in myself and allowed him to see and experience these changes, then why on earth would he have a reason to want to come home or at least consider it?)
Regardless of whether you feel my H could possibly have an amount of love for me does not matter. Yes he had an affair, continues to do so and is selfish. Because I am the mother of his children there will always be an amount of love for me, maybe not respect or passionate love, but love in that he does not hope that I die or fall off the earth. This is real, this is what he expresses to my children.
Yes our marriage needed some help, but it wasn't horrible, we were actually each other's best friends and laughed a lot together. He was celebrated in his home and loved pretty well.
He has lost his way(Yes he may not find his way back). I choose to allow the love I have for him to cover, as the bible says, a multitude of sins and give a soft answer to turn away wrath. I refuse to allow bitterness (even if he stays with OW) to consume me and pass that venom to my children.
Instead i will fight against hate and bitterness to the very end so my children will respect me and be able to see really what happened instead of seeing that mom is a hateful yucky person and be able look at me in the wrong light. Bitterness is a venom that steals joy, peace and life and will consume your soul. No thanks I don't want to teach my kids that they are way to precious to me. Now I'm not saying I haven't had moments of struggle with hating him, but I choose to pull my self out of it as quick as i can, and believe me I know it ain't easy.
My hope is that not just me, but everyone on this forum, that they do not stay and conform to the present circumstance but through it, no matter the outcome, that they will transform and use this terrible circumstance as an opportunity for growth. No we have not asked for growth but why not use every moment we are alive to grow instead of living every day out of the moment we discovered the affair. Sorry I just can't God has plans for me too and it didn't only mean if my H was by my side.
I'm grateful for all my new friends who are a light to me helping me and encouraging me during my Plan A and soon my Plan B. Your words are gold to me, either way it goes, because I've found friends among people who understand my pain because they've went through it too. I am amazed by you becaue you still can see hope and you do not bash our fathers/mothers of our children. You speak clear truths, facts and wisdom with out the sting of hate. Now that's amazing! That's strength and its beautiful!
Everyone will give you different opinions, so I suggest you stick to the MB plan which is around 6 weeks of a SOLID Plan A, followed by Plan B.
You are doing an excellent job. Keep it up.
B,
That's the Plan! And actually, I really have been giving this to God and thinking about what day I want to give my PBL to H. If I give it to him on Oct. 31st that's only 28 days of Plan A. Since I only see him maybe 2-3 days a week I really was thinking of adding 2 weeks.
I ran it by my Pastor who seems to really like the Program and he mentioned if I could extend it just a bit so I was considering going to 6 weeks. You just confirmed what I feel I'm supposed to do. I feel pretty strong about the 6 week marker and know that I'm not going over that. It'll be just before Thanksgiving. I do not want to spend Thanksgiving with him, even as he stated he'll be alone. I just don't feel I can sit with the white elephant in the room during that day or Christmas.
Well he'll be here in a few hours for lunch and chores.
I read over the Goddess thread. Good stuff, but I have always done all that. I'm a girly girl so always have the make-up and new stuff, perfume, body spray, mystic tans, hair done every 2 months, mani and pedi's, I take walks, buy new music, garden, read, go in the jacuzzi etc etc. I think what I wanna do is paint my bed room and game room for the kids. and keep doing all the other stuff. I think I will go back to the gym. I'm in pretty good shape already as I have been a gym a holic since I was 16 but I stopped when this all happened, so I'll do that too.
You can't go wrong following the MB plan exactly. I suggest two more weeks. You seem to have a knack for Plan A. And also get your ducks in a row for Plan B.
Then you go for it, girl.
You'll know if you need to finish sooner, and if you don't we'll :twobyfour: you, never fear.
Bitterness is a venom that steals joy, peace and life and will consume your soul.
This is a great line, T2L. BEAUTIFUL!!
And SO true!!
I worked at this before I found MB. I didn't want to harbor any hate for either one of the adulterers...it is just NOT healthy, and my health was already on a downward decline before exposure; a.k.a. "Brave New World."
It really helps you to heal when you done have the bitterness and hate in your heart. It serves NO purpose. Other than to keep you stagnant. And who the heck wants that?
I wish that a lot of people here that are still mired in bitterness could break away from that. It is sad to see and I never know what to say to them even though I wish I could help them in some way.
Have a great day!
Charlotte
And P.S.) You're grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrEAT!!!
I wish that a lot of people here that are still mired in bitterness could break away from that. It is sad to see and I never know what to say to them even though I wish I could help them in some way.
Hear, hear
Hey, T2L
LMAO
Neak I never posted of divorce on this thread. In fact I rarely do post divorce them posts anymore. The couple times I have have been when people are clearly being abused or used. Like that one man's wife who has sex with Charlie and lies to him and has used him and cheated on him thier whole marriage.
Hey even then I am not sure i urged him to divorce.
Wait, I may have asked Cat why she was unable to divorce her husband who is a monster.
I'm glad to hear that your divorce advice has gotten less frequent.
Now maybe it's time to work on delivery. I'm not a big fan of censorship, or infringments on posting styles. I'm even a supporter of many 2x4's here. But truly, there are many times when you either deliver a bashing when none is needed, or just go about posting in an angry way.
Even when a 2x4 is needed, it will be much better received if it is given with a measure of caring, also. I'm not trying to judge whether you actually care or not, but if you do, it's not coming across.
I'm telling you this because I feel that you have something valuable that you'll be able to offer, once your anger has subsided sufficiently to distance yourself from the active-BS feelings. Your anger toward your parents, and possibly also some unresolved anger at your FWH affects most of what you say here.
Sometimes difficult things need to be said, but they need to spring from genuine love and caring toward the person being rebuked. Also, most BS's don't really begin to feel anger untl Plan B and/or recovery. Trying to whip up their resentment while they are focused on killing the affair is unproductive. Plenty of anger will come later, when it's time, and without any outside interference.
Please continue to read and learn about the plans. They really do work, and they are the very best way to make it through the A with a good shot at R. By sticking with the MB plans, a majority of BS's will succeed in saving their marriages, and in helping their WS recover their good character. It happens on here all the time, and it's a privilege to have a part in the process.
Well made it through the weekend.
Met as many Admiration needs as I could and domestic needs too. Sunday he was here from noon to 8:30 PM. Took us to lunch worked on the car. I think he's coming Wednesday to visit. I think he may come Friday if he keeps his date with his buddy from church. We'll see. Hopefully.
Sent an email today to H admiring what a great job he did on the brakes etc etc.
I was running out of things for him to do at the house since he's been doing most of it for the last 2 weeks so I was like hey maybe you can get my Christmas stuff down and ready since I'll probably put it all out after Thanksgiving. Seems like he's here mostly during the weekends, at least 2 out of the 3 days. I was bad again( i did it with a smile and flirt tho, does that count) did ask H if OW new he was here at the house with kids and me here, he said yes and I said Disneyland too? He said yes and I say, she's okay with it and he says not really. Hmmm, wondering if he was just lying or if it was the truth. He knows I have her phone number since we all have the same cell phone plan.
Anyways more to come as usual....
BTW, Neak sent you an email.
You're doing great.
Really, spectacularly.
Please stop asking him about OW. Don't pry.
Right now OW is probably hopping mad that he's spending time with you and the kids and having second thoughts. I'd bet good money she grills him, and he probably finds that controlling, irritating, and suffocating. PLEASE be a haven for him and don't grill him too.
You're doing too good to let your curiosity undo your hard work.
Yeah your right, and I do want to be a haven for him. I am not going to ask any more questions, promise. Besides, I do want her to be the one to drill him. Thanks
Yes, no more questions. Let HER turn into the witch. OW HATE their intended spending time with the wife and family.
Also, I don't think she is very competent on domestic support. That will start bothering him.
I think your doing wonderfully.
No more bringing up OW tho. When he's with you and the kids, your all you want him to be thinking of.
Be his wife as much as he will let you and be the best one you can be.
How are you going with getting all the Plan B stuff organised to go? Mostly ready?
I know darn it I'm so mad at myself. I'm not gonna mention her again. I will duct tape my own mouth!
I do want her to be the one to ask, question and unravel. I'm gonna so concentrate on being a sweet lil wifey pooh meeting all his Top 5 needs the best I can.
We even talked on the phone for 15 minutes tonight. Usually he calls the house phone to talk to the kids but he called my cell tonight and instead of asking for Gabriel he asks how the painting of the spare room is going. So i followed suit and kept chatting. I made sure again, meeting admiration and conversation needs at every possible chance, say hey I can't believe what a good job you did on the brakes on my truck. I think they are working better now than they did when we bought it I just can't believe it. Thanks for doing them. He asks how son is doing at night, I say well nights are hard, son10 is still sleeping in my bed and I have to redirect a lot and it seems to help, but not sure if he's going to ever really get used to you being gone. I then say but when you hugged him yesterday and spent all that time with him I watch my son's heart melt and I can see how much it means to him having you around and hugging and loving him.
So folks trying to find every opportunity to meet those needs. I'm pretty sure he is going to be over Wednesday to watch son at the house and hang out with him and tuck him in while I'm at church. Which is new since he has only been around on the weekends since the start of Plan A.
I did ask him if he wanted to come over on Friday for steaks and some wine just the 2 of us since S10 will be at cousins house for a sleep over and DD17 is going out. We'll see if he comes but I did ask. I'm hoping he will, but NO EXPECTATION, HE WILL RUN HOT AND COLD, I AM THE LIGHT HOUSE AND NOT THE SHIP AT SEA, I AM THE THERMOSTAT I SET THE TEMPERATURE! NO EXPECTATIONS AND NO LOOKING AT THE DARN GARDEN WHEN I JUST PLANTED THOSE DARN SEEDS....hey guys how am I doing? Yeah! But in all seriousness folks it is the very best advice ever and has helped me keep my Plan A sanity.
More to come.....
Just checking in after a long day. I see you're still doing really well, and at least you know you aren't sposed to be checking for sprouts yet.
oh, hey T2L..
those sunflowers I planted a while ago have just started pushing thru the soil, and most have thier first set of laterals out. Have so many and they are so close together I have going to have to remove some, or thin a bit at least.
just FYI
I'm pretty sure he is going to be over Wednesday to watch son at the house and hang out with him and tuck him in while I'm at church. Which is new since he has only been around on the weekends since the start of Plan A.
Okay I am totally NOT getting excited or anything but did I just hear you say he's spending at least half of his free time with the family? Plus all the driving time and gas expense... I bet OW is a really happy camper now.
Just keep on doing what you're doing and OW will destroy the A herself. See if I'm not right. I bet she's doing it now, and he's "hiding" at your place (the haven, where he's admired and appreciated, and the conversation is entertaining).
I predict he'll be wanting to come home, and the next thing we'll have to coach you on is making him stay away until he's ready to meet your requirements. Set that bar high, woman. You want a GREAT marriage, not a "this'll do" marriage.
Of course that's just pie-in-the-sky dreaming and I am NOT counting any chickens or sprouts, because none of them have hatched yet.
Got it! Set the Bar High! Sorry Mr. you gotta meet my conditions!
Yes he's coming, but does it matter that I kinda had to tell him that s10 really needs to see him more that the weekend and how it will really help him if he can see him 1 day during the week? I mean my son did really say that and he really has had a very hard time with this whole thing and really is in therapy and sleeping in my bed. So that's the reason he's coming as DD17 and will be at church.
I did however tell him that I would be making dinner and it will be there for them (meeting the domestic need). I'm hoping he accepts my invitation to dinner on Friday just him and I. On Sunday he did give me another hug and a peck kiss when he said goodbye and my son was sneaking around peaking and says mom he gave you 2 hugs and a kiss! But I am still aware that when I go to Plan B he may get mad or may not come home.
Again, I wish that he would get it together before Plan B, but I doubt it. My Plan B will start Nov. 14 or 15 which ever day I can see him in person and hand him the letter.
Yes he's coming, but does it matter that I kinda had to tell him that s10 really needs to see him more that the weekend and how it will really help him if he can see him 1 day during the week? I mean my son did really say that and he really has had a very hard time with this whole thing and really is in therapy and sleeping in my bed. So that's the reason he's coming as DD17 and will be at church.
I think that's a fantastic reason for him to be coming. You didn't make up stories or try to manipulate him into coming. You're not using the children as a tool to get him to come to you (heck, you'll be at church).
I think it is an important statement that your WH can see (and care) about the damage his actions are having on your DS10. Most waywards can't see and don't care. They are oblivous and callous. I'm not saying yours is a gem, he's a poopy-head like all waywards, but there are lots of promising signs.
You just keep on doing what you're doing.
And remember, when he gets angry or shuts down, it's NOT about you. It's probably OW getting all up in his grill, or his own guilt, or something else totally unrelated, like a toothache. You're a convenient target, but you're NOT the cause of any bad behaviors on his part. You, mis TTL, are doing swimmingly.
My Plan B will start Nov. 14 or 15 which ever day I can see him in person and hand him the letter.
Can you arrange for an awesome date night or family night where he stays late, and then hand him the PBL as you hug and peck goodnight?
Sounds like a Plan to me! Probably be Saturday the 15th as DS10 will have football still. Maybe I'll invite him to the house for dinner after that. Good idea. Will be more loving and personal than just handing it on the fly. I'll start working on that.
So through this whole thing we have had no LS agreement. I have been trusting him to provide as he said he would. We did get behind in our house payment and are in process of modification as we speak. , but it was due to his demotion caused by lack of sales. He just told me he got his position back and things are starting to get better.
So I'm thinking how I can meet an Admiration need, so I send him this email yesterday morning. It said basically thanks for the great job on my brakes and also I just wanted to thank you for providing financially for the kids and I and for keeping your word. I have tremendous respect for you that you have done this because when an OW gets in the picture i know it can be hard, but I just want you to know how I appreciate you for taking care of us.
SO GUESS WHAT GUYS?? Last night he says to me hey I had to borrow $12 bucks from our joint account because I put the whole check in. HOLY COW, I met that emotional need and he put the WHOLE check in!
So I say well thanks but are you able to care for your self and eat, and he says yeah I think so I may need to borrow a few buck during the week.
Anyways I can surely see the power of meeting an emotional need, It'll make someone do almost anything!
Anyways I can surely see the power of meeting an emotional need, It'll make someone do almost anything!
Try and have that last dinner be romantic, if that floats his boat... Since DS is important to him, can you cook his favorite food? (But I think you've been doing that already... not sure how you can improve on what you're already doing...)
I've heard that cinnamon does something to guys, like an aphrodisiac. Does he like pumpkin pie or apple pie?
Can you arrange for an awesome date night or family night where he stays late, and then hand him the PBL as you hug and peck goodnight?
I wanted to expand upons Jayne's excellent advice.
Sometime before the plan B letter, you should have a gentle discussion with WH that goes something like this:
WH, I've been daydreaming about our future. I've visualized us still married, happily reconciled and recovering as a family from this crisis. I was wondering, do you ever have thoughts like I do? Thoughts of turning our marriage around and not getting a divorce? The WH who is not a complete [censored] and has something resembling a conscious (like your WH) can feel UNworthy of his wife after adultery. WH might view himself as someone that a woman of your caliber would not want back after the mistakes he's made.
Just before plan B - plan one more seed - the possibility of a happy family and forgiveness.
Whatever his response to you is not the point. The point is NOT to get a particular response from him .... but to
plant another seed.
I've heard that cinnamon does something to guys, like an aphrodisiac. Does he like pumpkin pie or apple pie?
I've heard watermelon does the same thing. It's something in the rind, so you have to eat the melon closest to the rind.
[quote=jayne241]
I wanted to expand upons Jayne's excellent advice.
Sometime before the plan B letter, you should have a gentle discussion with WH that goes something like this:
WH, I've been daydreaming about our future. I've visualized us still married, happily reconciled and recovering as a family from this crisis. I was wondering, do you ever have thoughts like I do? Thoughts of turning our marriage around and not getting a divorce?
The WH who is not a complete [censored] and has something resembling a conscious (like your WH) can feel UNworthy of his wife after adultery. WH might view himself as someone that a woman of your caliber would not want back after the mistakes he's made.
Just before plan B - plan one more seed - the possibility of a happy family and forgiveness.
Whatever his response to you is not the point. The point is NOT to get a particular response from him .... but to plant another seed.
I do think he may have the unworthy thing going on in his head actually. (Transparent moment...hope your ready folks ) I flirted with him pretty heavy via text page last week, and his response was wow, I never thought that you would ever consider that with me ever again. I said really, well you are my H. I think it shocked him to know I was still thinking of him in that way or that I would ever be with him again after all of this, especially with his comment Saturday when he told me about the guilt he has over all the people he's hurt and tears he's caused.
It's the part of the carrot that many BS forget about ...
The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A
The carrot of Plan A
Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.
Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.
Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.
Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.
Stop lovebusting behaviors.
Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.
Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.
Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.
Offering forgiveness and understanding.
So NO EXPECTATIONS on his answer, ouch that's gonna be hard what if he says no? LOL
Then you just say "Wow, that's a disappointment. You want some dessert?" and go on. And to yourself you think "You have, but you're not willing to admit it, and now I've planted the seed and it's gonna FESTER IN YER BRAIN!!
Pep, that was great advice about how some waywards feel so guilty and unworthy that they dismiss the possibility of reconciliation out of hand. I'm glad you're still here with your good insights.
Got it! Sow seeds in to brain! LOL.
Well H can't make it on Wednesday but is going to come on Thursday so that's good. I invited him to dinner with just me at the house for some steak and a bottle of wine, he said it sounds like fun but I can't. Says he may see us for a little on Saturday during DS10 football game.
I am hoping he'll come to visit on Sunday but I haven't invited him yet, I guess I should get on that. I want him to spend as much time as he can away from OW while I'm in Plan A.
That's the news in my neighborhood.
Then you just say "Wow, that's a disappointment. You want some dessert?" and go on.
Add ....
"Well sweetheart" .... a flirty pause ....
"a girl can dream can't she?" It may not have registered in his foggy head that forgiveness is even possible ....
plant seed, water and fertilize seed, add some
"sunshine" ... and dessert
plan A at it's finest
no expectations
Hey guys, I am tightening up my Plan B ends. Could you all give me some tips and important information to pass on to our mutual friends who are my mediators. I explained the basics but I'm sure there are pitfalls and things they may need to know.
And still wanting everyone's input on whether I should call OW when I give him his PBL. I think the book had them do it if I remember correctly.
I would concentrate on my Plan A.
When it comes time to do Plan B, you need to have your finances in order so you don't have to talk about that, the visitation with your kids figured out, and anything else that you think he would need to contact you for.
Your mediators are to be like spam filters. They do not react, or pass along his reactions.
If he wrote, "I can't believe you're doing this! You're so horrible and manipulative, and I can't believe I ever married you! You won't even let me have full access to the kids anymore, and Friday I have to work an hour late so my mom has to pick them up from school for me, and I'm going to miss out on that hour. IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!!! ICEBERGS ARE MELTING AND YOU ARE TO BLAME!!!!!!! I WAS ALMOST READY TO WORK THINGS OUT WITH YOU BUT YOU WENT AND RUINED IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
And your intermediary tells you, "WH has to work an hour late on Friday, so his mom is picking up the kids."
Your intermediary tells him, "Thank you for your recent communication. I have let Trying know you'll be working late, and that your mother will pick up the children."
They are to sound completely neutral, and protect you from any and all rants, foggy outbursts, etc. No bias should be obvious in their response to him. Always calm and unresponsive to his anger.
Thanks I passed it on to them, they wanted to kinda have a better idea.
Starting to feel just a little pre Plan B nervousness. I guess it wouldn't be so hard with Thanksgiving, Christmas and 19 year anniversary coming. I know 1 day at a time. It's just that huge what if. Guess it doesn't matter really. Just a bit of nervousness, its getting closer.
B,
You're right I need all my focus on doing a great Plan A. I'm thinking of buying him a small gift to give him when he comes to visit. It's something he needs and he wants. What do you think guys? The kids won't be here for about an hour, they have sports and stuff, when he comes on Thursday so I thought of making him dinner(has high domestic need) and giving him the gift. Yea or nay?
Tonight I send him a text saying "G'night Mr. Smith
" and he responds "Goodnight Trying2live Smith" I respond yup that's my name.
Anyways really gonna do what I can to make no contact at all tomorrow and then see him on Thursday.
Beautiful, just beautiful!
I think the touch of 180 will be good, too. With such limited time left, just use a tiny sprinkle every now and again, just enough to keep him off balance. An unbalanced WS is ideal.
Well, they're all unbalanced, but the more the better.
I'm thinking of buying him a small gift to give him when he comes to visit. It's something he needs and he wants.
Have you read "The Five Love Languages" ?
That can be insightful too. Gift giving is one of the languages.
You are doing a fantastic job.....you are staying so strong and level-headed through all this....well done!
As you are a Christian,I thought I'd tell you about a wonderful site ....
www.rejoiceministries.org ...have a look,you'll see why.....
I'm thinking of buying him a small gift to give him when he comes to visit. It's something he needs and he wants. What do you think guys?
Yes! ESPECIALLY because it's something he needs and wants. It shows you're in tune to his needs, desires, and interests. Somewhere deep in the foggy wrinkles of his brain, another seed will be planted that says "TTL knows and understands me."
I second the recommendation of "The Five Love Languages" - it's an excellent book!
I love that Website, Thank you for sharing...I'm going to pass it on to friends.
Hi Trying2live,
You seem pretty tech savy and use text messaging a lot. I see this as the most likely way your husband will try to test/break/draw you out of your plan B. I would strongly suggest deleting them without reading. He'll try hard to break your plan B resolve, and he'll know which buttons to push with some eye catching subject line.
On days that you do get a SMS from him send him a generic email response citing the conditions of your plan B letter, and remind him that all communication is to go through xxx. After a few attempts with the same response, he'll know that he can't get through to you that way.
I would also make similar plans in advance for the other ways you foresee him trying to contact you. Everyone asks their spouse to respect their request not to contact them until the plan B conditions are met but none do. Also, your plan A has been so strong that plan B is going to rock his world. He is going to try HARD to break your plan B. Be strong. Stick to your guns (boundaries).
Good luck,
YS
YS, Ok thank you so much! I hope it ROCKS him!
I am getting more nervous as it gets closer as it can go anyway, but the support I get from this thread, I feel like either way I'm going to make. This thread is my life line next to God of course and when I check the thread I always feel encouraged and strengthened!
I'm going to stick to my guns :twobyfour: , and expect that he may try the cell phone thing. I will have a preset answer ready. When I cut him off in the beginning Pre-SAA he never contacted me text page or cell so I am hoping it just returns to that. The only way he used to torture me was via email and i think I may tell him that the email will be shut off that day so he will have to go the the mediator, which is his friend.
He'll be here tomorrow for dinner with me and then a visit with the kids when they get back from sports. I'm going to have gift for him that he's kinda wanted and a nice dinner since he's made several complaints about eating out.
Hey everyone, I think I forgot to mention this to you all. My son tells me a conversation him and his dad had on the way to the store. Remember we all have had 2 rounds of at least a month or more of cutting dad off because he was an angry crazy lost all common sense person. In addition my DD10 has had to start therapy due to all the anxiety issues caused by all this.
DD10 says "mom, dad asked me if the visits are helping me and I said yes they are dad." H says "they are helping me too son. I just don't know what I'm going to do."
So what ya'll think about that?
I may tell him that the email will be shut off that day so he will have to go the the mediator, which is his friend.
I don't know about you, but shutting off my email would be a huge inconvenience to me. Most email clients allow you to create rules for automatically deleting, or filing, or forwarding, or responding to messages that meet certain criteria. I suggest you set up a rule that either silently deletes his emails or auto-replies with a very short, to-the-point message, like "When you are ready to cease contact with OW and commit to working on our marriage, please let me know via <mediator>."
If he's really sneaky and devious, like moi, he'll also try to contact you from some new hotmail or yahoo mail account. Just ignore those.
H says "they are helping me too son. I just don't know what I'm going to do."
So what ya'll think about that?
Nothing. :twobyfour:
Who knows what it means?
I bet even WH doesn't.
If he wants to come home, that might make a convenient "reason".
If he wants to dive deeper into affair-land, he'll tell himself "I can have generous visitation and the kids will be fine."
Plan A, and focus on YOU.
Because, after all, it is all about you, dahling!
I feel like either way I'm going to make it.
IMHO that is the best thing about Plans A and B. Even when they aren't successful, they are.
You're gonna be ok either way, no matter what he does. You really are. And if he's smart he'll be right there with you.
Yes i like that about the Plans either way they work.
Well I tried to go for no contact texts or emails, but he texted me that he needed to pull some cashola out of the bank because he overdrew his account.
I just said oh that stinks thanks so much for filling me in. Was just thinking about you, come hungry tomorrow during the visit I'll make dinner.
Otherwise quiet day. Feeling good for what it is. Plan A'ing tomorrow during the visit. Will be getting him a gift in the morning. Won't see him Friday, tried to set up plans but he says he can't. Will see him on Saturday briefly for son's game. I think Sunday he will see us on Sunday for lunch after church and to hang out for the day. Then we'll see him on Thursday for pumpkin carving and Friday for trick or treating. I asked him if he wanted to take off Nov 1st so he can go to the game with us and hang out for the day and then Sunday he'll take DS10 to football weigh-ins. So lots of opportunities for Plan A'ing next week hopefully.
Alright it's late and I'm pooped.....
I swear, you're seeing more of your estranged WH than some couples see of each other. You're doing a killer Plan A and fortunately he's responding in a big way.
I suggest you set up a rule that either silently deletes his emails or auto-replies with a very short, to-the-point message, like "When you are ready to cease contact with OW and commit to working on our marriage, please let me know via <mediator>."
I would suggest sending no response at all.
Setting up a rule like that will alert the WS that the e-mail address is still working and someone is still monitoring it.
A good Plan B needs to be DARK. NO response.
I would love to know what the OW thinks of him spending so much time at home....
Well I tried to go for no contact texts or emails
You're not in Plan B yet, right? So why are you trying to go no contact now? As long as you're still in Plan A, contact is fine. In fact, the more contact you have with him now in Plan A, the more impact Plan B will have when there is suddenly NO CONTACT whatsoever, nada, dark, dark, dark. See?
I would suggest sending no response at all.
Even better.
You made a real good point about the auto-response letting him know the address is still working. Of course, if he sends to it and gets no non-delivery message, he'll know anyway. But totally silent is the best.
Make a rule that deletes his messages.
That way you don't even have to see them and agonize over them.
For when you go to Plan B, of course.
Not for now!
NO response for Plan B, got it. It thought about telling him my email will be shut off but not really shutting it off. Then he won't bother. Text pages I just wont respond.
I was not going to contact him just to switch it up a little, okay so the more contact the better, that's fine with me. The time he's here is enjoyable, oddly so.
{{singing}}Plan B, Plan B why do I have to implement thee, why can't thy dear Husband pull his head out and see....LOL....Oh sorry I was in a singing mood this morning.
I was trying to catch up when I got to the part where he hugged you and told you that he didn't know how YOU could get past this.
Please print my story out for him for the next time he uses that OBVIOUS LINE again.
People have forgive much worse and come out far better humans afterward.
All my love,
Kimmy
You've gotten my curiosity now I'm going to read it!
It's icky in some parts...
Just warnin' ya.
Well ya'll he'll be here in a few hours.
House Cleaned and smelling fresh...check
I'm looking cute and smell great...check
Yummy dinner planned....check
Going to by gift now....check
Being sure to add admiration sometime during visit....checkamundo!
NO response for Plan B, got it. ... Text pages I just
wont respond [emphasis added].
Trying2live, I know you get this and I don't mean to harp on it, but you have to take it one step further than merely not responding - you MUST NOT READ. Delete immediately. He will try every trick above and below the belt to get to you. He knows your buttons - you've known each other since grade 8 right? After the first message or two doesn't get a response, he'll
know you're sitting there reading them, stewing or crying to yourself, and his messages will be increasingly vile or heart wrenching. But you're going to be protected from that in your dark plan B cocoon. You are strong.
Good luck,
YS
for emphasis
you MUST NOT READ
Ok jumping on real quick, will post more later but wanted to put this out.
So when H leaves i always walk him to the door. The last several times we hug and he gives me a peck. Our hugs are longer than just a hug and go. We hold each other for just a few, he rubs my back for a minute. When we're holding or he leaves what do you guys think about saying I love you? I haven't said that since a few weeks after discovery because I read this book that says all the thoughts a walkaway would think when you say that and it really made a lot of sense esp since he was angry and crazy and no common sense-huge fog. But now things are not that way between us with this Plan A in effect. I almost said I love you as we were hugging but caught my self, so what do you guys think? I don't want to pressure him, but would love for him to know how much I love him before Plan B goes in to effect.
You can tell him that you love him in your Plan B letter. I wouldn't tell him right now.
Concentrate on a solid Plan A for now, and get all of your ducks in a row for Plan B. It needs to be very dark, so figure out all of the contingencies ahead of time and prepare for them.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record.
Fabulous!
Amazing!
You're doing so well!
Awesome!
Wow!
Well, you ARE doing good. No question of that. As to the ILY's in general the recommendation is don't say them. Keeping in mind it was a long time in the scheme of things before I found MB, I said ILY at first, and was terribly wounded when he wouldn't reply. Finally I got mad and stopped saying it for a while. Then I got mad again, and said to myself, "I do love him, and he's not strong enough to stop me." So I did drive-by ILY's. Hit him and gone before he had a chance to answer, or not, so no pressure.
The point of that, is you don't need to bother with ILY's at this point, but if you do, make them quick and nonpressuring, just in passing.
But really, you've got him so hooked at this point, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
When we're holding or he leaves what do you guys think about saying I love you?
try any of these:
You're so cute.
I lurve you.
Bye sexy man.
I married my honey.
Bye sweetie.
Hubba-hubba.
or ..... "Now don't go turning me on again like you did the last time!" .... then
and giggle ... turn and leave
When we're holding or he leaves what do you guys think about saying I love you?
try any of these:
You're so cute.
I lurve you.
Bye sexy man.
I married my honey.
Bye sweetie.
Hubba-hubba.
or ..... "Now don't go turning me on again like you did the last time!" .... then
and giggle ... turn and leave
Oh dear!
Where is my:
PROUD MEMBER OF THE PEPPERBAND FAN CLUB tee-shirt?
Lu-huve it!!!!!!!!!!
StellaKat,
I hear the pain you have but let me explain. Having rarely spoken or seen my H(because I cut him off for about 5 months), Yes he is cake eating. I just implemented Plan A on October 3rd, I want him to eat cake. That's my Plan, so it's working.
If he goes by our last interactions over the last 5 months(before I found the book made the changes in myself and allowed him to see and experience these changes, then why on earth would he have a reason to want to come home or at least consider it?)
Regardless of whether you feel my H could possibly have an amount of love for me does not matter. Yes he had an affair, continues to do so and is selfish. Because I am the mother of his children there will always be an amount of love for me, maybe not respect or passionate love, but love in that he does not hope that I die or fall off the earth. This is real, this is what he expresses to my children.
Yes our marriage needed some help, but it wasn't horrible, we were actually each other's best friends and laughed a lot together. He was celebrated in his home and loved pretty well.
He has lost his way(Yes he may not find his way back). I choose to allow the love I have for him to cover, as the bible says, a multitude of sins and give a soft answer to turn away wrath. I refuse to allow bitterness (even if he stays with OW) to consume me and pass that venom to my children.
Instead i will fight against hate and bitterness to the very end so my children will respect me and be able to see really what happened instead of seeing that mom is a hateful yucky person and be able look at me in the wrong light. Bitterness is a venom that steals joy, peace and life and will consume your soul. No thanks I don't want to teach my kids that they are way to precious to me. Now I'm not saying I haven't had moments of struggle with hating him, but I choose to pull my self out of it as quick as i can, and believe me I know it ain't easy.
My hope is that not just me, but everyone on this forum, that they do not stay and conform to the present circumstance but through it, no matter the outcome, that they will transform and use this terrible circumstance as an opportunity for growth. No we have not asked for growth but why not use every moment we are alive to grow instead of living every day out of the moment we discovered the affair. Sorry I just can't God has plans for me too and it didn't only mean if my H was by my side.
I'm grateful for all my new friends who are a light to me helping me and encouraging me during my Plan A and soon my Plan B. Your words are gold to me, either way it goes, because I've found friends among people who understand my pain because they've went through it too. I am amazed by you becaue you still can see hope and you do not bash our fathers/mothers of our children. You speak clear truths, facts and wisdom with out the sting of hate. Now that's amazing! That's strength and its beautiful!
I haven't been able to be on line all week and am just catching up...wow, that was potent! If I can follow your example, I'll do well! It leaves me something to aspire to...
Plan A yesterday went well. He came about 4:30 walked in and hugged the kids and then came and hugged me-which BTW DD17 noticed it too. He did some chores, again, LOL. I make sure I have a laundry list of em so I can spread it out over the Plan A LOL and No i have not committed violent acts against my own property just to have H around, though it really crossed my mind.
Anyways, he did more chores, kids had sports and were gone for a few hours. {{Transparency coming, hurry close your eyes}} So to say the least we were alone for 2 hours and one thing led to another. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong, just that it happened. I don't necessarily think I am cheating as I am fully married to the guy. Yes I satisfied and unmet physical need. Yes I am fully conscious that Plan B may not work and nothing may change. I am still in mode of NO EXPECTATIONS. I did flirt heavily and somewhat hinted so it wasn't all his fault.
Soooo, please be kind if you disagree, i respect opinions not judgments.
At one point of the evening I went to the garage to see what he was up to and I come out and notice he is on the phone, he looks at me with BIG eyes and holds up 1 finger like wait. The he kinda motions me off, so I stand there for 10 seconds staring at him and smiling before I leave. He then comes in and I laugh and say were you just motioning me off and I laugh and he kinda was like what??? So funny thing to me is now he is lying to her about me, because I am fully aware of her. Deception begins.
Kids came home, we had a lovely dinner together joking enjoying each other. He showered earlier in the day and left his toothbrush in the holder. When he was leaving, I gave it back to him he said its no big deal just leave it here I have another one. Then at night he played a few games of pool with the kids and got ready to leave.
We gave each other a kiss and a hug and I cheerfully said so when do you plan to come back? He says you mean you want a liar and a cheater back? I say I don't mean to live I mean to visit, and he says oh probably see you at son's game on Saturday and then come over on Sunday.
Well there you go guys, just being honest still would love your mentoring and help in my Plan A if you so choose to.
Feedback anyone??
First let me say.....
That could not have gone better, IMHO!!!!
Well, maybe I woulda changed one thing, but you still can...
We gave each other a kiss and a hug and I cheerfully said so when do you plan to come back? He says you mean you want a liar and a cheater back? I say I don't mean to live I mean to visit,
Sounds to me like he was putting feelers out to see if you *would* take him back. Remember, you want to provide a clear path back home! You don't have to wait for Plan B to let him know you would welcome him with open... um, arms
if he would agree to end his A and send a NC letter... and whatever else your conditions are.
So I woulda answered him something like, "I don't want my wayward H back, but boy howdy I'd sure love to have my honey back!"
Usual warnings about protection, etc. etc., DO NOT jeapordize your health, so be sure to use something.
That said, woo hoo! He is sure well out of the stage of withdrawal and far into the stage of conflict.
Awesome!
(There I go again, broken record.)
And I agree totally about your response for next time. Good one!
Hmmm, so he's in conflict? How so?
And even if I was more a pursuer and flirted more than him although I could not force him to do anything obviously. He did make a conscious choice.
I'm referring to Dr. Harley's states: Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal.
Basic Concept #8: The Three States of Mind in Marriage
The Giver and Taker create moods that I call states of mind. These states of mind have a tremendous influence on the way a husband and wife try to resolve conflicts. But in each of the three states of mind, negotiation is almost impossible. That's what makes negotiation, in general, so tough in marriage.
When we are in love and happy, we are usually in the State of Intimacy. That state of mind is controlled by the Giver, which encourages us to follow the Giver's rule: do whatever you can to make your spouse happy and avoid anything that makes your spouse unhappy, even if it makes you unhappy. That rule can lead to habits that may be good for our spouse, but can be disastrous for us because we are not negotiating with our own interests in mind.
Sadly, flawed agreements made in the state of Intimacy can lead to our own unhappiness, and that in turn wakes the slumbering Taker. As long as we are happy, our Taker has nothing to do, but when we start feeling unhappy, our Taker rises to our rescue and triggers the State of Conflict. With the Taker now in charge, we are encouraged to follow the rule: do whatever you can to make yourself happy, and avoid anything that makes yourself unhappy, even if it makes others unhappy. The Taker also encourages us to be demanding, disrespectful and angry in an effort to force our spouse to make us happy. Fighting is the Taker's favorite "negotiating" strategy.
When fighting doesn't work, and we are still unhappy, the Taker encourages us to take a new course of action that triggers the State of Withdrawal. Instead of trying to force our spouse to make us happy, our Taker wants us to give up on our spouse entirely. We don't want our spouse to do anything for us, and we certainly don't want to do anything for our spouse. In this state of mind we are emotionally divorced.
How can couples work their way back to the state of Intimacy once they find themselves trapped in the state of Withdrawal? And once they are back, how can they stay there? The answers to those questions are found in the next Basic Concept.
He is talking about healthy marriages, but much applies even for A's, till you get to the how-to-fix-it part.
Jayne, I'm not really sure that he put his feelers out or if he just didn't know what to say because he thought I was asking him home. Am I allowed to ask him home? I just want it to be his decision.
Neak, I am hoping he is in conflict, but if he compartmentalizes then maybe he isn't in conflict. I guess either way he'll be in conflict in 2 1/2 weeks-at least that's what i hope for.
{{sigh}} 2 1/2 weeks and everything changes. It stinks! Glad to have the person that resembles H back around, but can't share. I love Thanksgiving and Christmas, sure gonna be different if he doesn't decide he want to come back. Getting nervous can ya hear it? I know, either way I'll be fine, just gotta change that mental picture that I've had the last 20+ years that we were gonna grow old together.
Ok carry on Plan A. Focus, one day at a time. We see him to day for a little and tomorrow at the house for the afternoon.
Hopefully the OW's taker is coming out. She for sure isn't going to like all that time he is spending at home with you. LOL.
Like everyone says, be sure to keep STD's in mind.
Sounds like you are giving him the most attractive alternative.
Hopefully the OW's taker is coming out. She for sure isn't going to like all that time he is spending at home with you. LOL.
Like everyone says, be sure to keep STD's in mind.
Sounds like you are giving him the most attractive alternative.
Where can I find out about the Taker? I don't think that's in SAA. I've heard about that.
Who knows though if he's telling her where he is at.
Yes am keeping the protection aspect in mind.
Neak's post explained a little about the giver and taker. I think there is more here on this site, and also in the book "The One" or "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders".
First of all, good job on using protection.
Second of all, there are some here who think you shouldn't "reward" a WH with SF but in my mind Plan A is all about meeting ENs and if SF is high on his list, you want it to be YOU making those deposits, baby! Also some folks have a real hard time with SF, getting the OP out of their brain. You seem to be able to focus on the H you know is buried in there somewhere, and if you're able to do SF with him I say GO FOR IT.
I hadn't thought of it when I read your post, but Jayne's idea that he might be putting out feelers on how to come home is a very good insight. If (when) he does something like that again, it's a great chance to lightly lay out requirements for him coming home: NC with OW, marriage counseling (or whatever your requirements are - probably ought to think about that so you know what to say and don't stumble around w/the words).
You asked if you can ask him to come home? I wouldn't, and here's why: if YOU have to ask him, then he's not yet in the right frame of mind where he WANTS to come home and he's WILLING to do the work of cleaning up after his mistakes. When he's ready to roll up his sleeves and commit to the M, he'll be asking to come home. In fact, he may ask before he's really ready to commit, in which case you'll have to tell him "Not yet." If you have to ask him, he's not ready.
You ARE the poster child for these plans, you know.
You ARE the poster child for these plans, you know.
Someones going to get a swell head
Awe thanks! I'm glad to be a poster child, was worried I may have damaged my rep. LOL.
Yes I kinda flirted and perused H, I mean let me just say 6 months to you. The 1st time he said well your going to call OW. I said you know I've had her # for 6 months and how much have I called her. (2 times early in the get go).
Then he said well how are you going to be emotionally? I responded, great I'll kick you out when I'm done LOL(sounds mean but its part of my 180-showing independence and initiating sex). Then he says well then I would be a cheater again, to which I reply Well sorry I don't know about you but I'm married to you and your married to me so.....Then he was like, Ok.
I am not allowing my self to get emotionally tied up and am aware that it can go either way. I have NO EXPECTATION. and as sad as it may sound I am getting my physical needs met. Yes he has a high sexual need, its #1 on the list.
The great thing is I've always had the ability to see treasure inside individuals that most people would write off-in fact it used to drive my H nuts. I'm naturally a optimist and he's a pessimist.
This Plan A is by far way easier than the 1st 5 months of angry fits, blame, justification, verbal lashing out that he did to me. I can handle this better. Yes it's really nice to have him around and he feels like the person I knew, but always, NO EXPECTATIONS.
My Pastor has been praying over this for 6 months with me, and I have been letting him know about all you guys, I tell him your my mentors. He asked how it was going, I said how transparent would you like, he said very. SO I told him yeah M cheated on her, his eyes got big and I said don't worry it was with me. Told him that H was worried about being a cheater again but I explained how we were married and he said you are exactly right and there is no condemnation to you. So I feel ok. It may not be for everyone, and It's not for me to say. I just know for me, its going ok, but only because I have NO EXPECTATIONS and I tell my self it can go either way and I don't fool myself.
Anyways thanks for everyones continued support. Hes actually here at the house now. He took us to lunch after sons game and then decided to stop by for a while.
Well better go before I get caught on here....update later if needed....
Gurl!!! NO swell head, he ain't even home yet!!!! I can only consider that when my manz gets his booteh home!!! LMAO..
Okay, so he just left at 10:15 PM. Around 4 he said he would be leaving in an hour I said no problem. But he never left.
He looked really tired, so I said I can make you some coffee or you are welcome to sleep on the couch(in front of kids). He says well I have reports to do for work.
So 10:15 rolls around, he says I gotta go DS10 starts to look down and get sad, I say(in front of H) DS how ya doing, and I look at H as if he's getting sad. H knows that son is in therapy for the anxiety all this has caused. He hugs dad and i send him off to get ready for bed so he doesn't have to watch dad go.
H gives me a long hug, I walk him out and he says he'll be here at 1:30 tomorrow, and he gives me a lil peck and I tease him and say that's the biggest kiss I get so he gives me a big one (whoo hooo!) LOL
Then H texts me is DS ok? I tell him he was a little sad and i redirected his thoughts, he did ask why you did not stay and i told him you had reports but DS said that maybe you didn't hear me ask you to stay. I also say Thank you for taking time to teach DS10 how to shuffle cards, you were so patient it really blessed me to watch you and I can see how it warms my son's heart.
Texts back, I love those kids. I say I know you do and "WE" all love you. He responds, you are a great mother. I try, they are my babies. I say awe, that means a lot coming from you, thank you. I wish I was had been a better wife to you too.(is that ok to say??)
His response??? Goodnight-kinda weird huh?(any thoughts anyone?)
Well pooped, More Plan A'ing tomorrow.....
It all sounds good to me, in fact it sounds pretty much perfect.
Your doing good, he's having 2nd thoughts, whatever is going on with OW it doesnt ivolve him spending alot of time with her.
I am pretty sure he'll come back at some stage, but the way
their relationship looks...I KNOW they are not going to last
Then he says well then I would be a cheater again, to which I reply Well sorry I don't know about you but I'm married to you and your married to me so.....Then he was like, Ok.
This is so good!
WH wants out of his affair with OW.
There, I said it.
He does not see any way out.
Next opportunity say to WH
Are you looking for a way home, back to the family who loves you and needs you?
What if I knew someone who could help us to make this marriage happy and successful?
Keep on message - OW is toilet-bound - NEVER mention her - pretend she is a flea
Good job, just keep hanging in there. The better Plan A you do, the more he will miss home in Plan B. Actually I think your timing will be good. This time of year is EXCELLENT for Plan B, what with all of the holidays.
It will be harder for you, but also very hard on him.
Awesome feed back guys. To alls of yous
Ok so he didn't leave til really late last night, I don't think he intended to as he said he was leaving around 5. He doesn't leave until 10 with an hour drive home.
SOOOOO-he canceled on us today! He was supposed to come back over and hang out about 2pm. He says I know your gonna kill me but I m really tired and need a full day of rest. My DS10 is sad, they kids are talking to each other blaming it on OW. I think they may be right. I'm guessing
(of course only speculation) that OW may have gotten irate
and so he may have made demands for him to stay. I wish I was a fly on the wall. Who knows maybe he was just tired and needed the rest. He did seem tired and I'm sure all this lying is draining him. I told him last night he could stay on the couch, so now the kids are mad because they know he could have stayed. I tell them I don't know what to tell you guys. If he calls just let him know how you feel. I said nothing except ok I understand, DS10 is upset maybe you can call him in a little. I didn't see this coming after all that text talk(previous post) about loving the kids so much(which I'm sure he does love em just not as much as his own needs). Anyways made a decision to not let it ruin the day, I think I'm going to take a little nappy pooh and enjoy the lovely Southern California weather.
April 23rd he tells me-discovery-he leaves. He comes back 3 days later to visit, but decides to satay breaks it off with OW(I listen) he then destroys the phone. He says to me during the 2 weeks he was home before he finally left, that he felt so bad for OW because she didn't need this in her life, it was already hard enough and can we give her money.
So I say all this because I think that he may actually want out, but now feels responsible. But then again, I'm sure there is something of him that may still like her, I'm not sure. I actually had the thought of asking him if he needed a fall guy so he wouldn't need to feel bad or responsible for her, but then dismissed the thought cuz I thought I was crazy.
So scary to think that Plan B may not work in the way i would like it to. I know either way that Plan B works even when it doesn't but whew still a lot to think about for the kids and I to again endure over the Holidays.
Anyways we are all just a little bummed out he's not coming over, but kinda said oh well. :RollieEyes:
WH wants out of his affair with OW.
There, I said it.
He does not see any way out.
Next opportunity say to WH
Are you looking for a way home, back to the family who loves you and needs you?
What if I knew someone who could help us to make this marriage happy and successful?
Keep on message - OW is toilet-bound - NEVER mention her - pretend she is a flea
I had thought maybe he wanted out, but yet he still lives with OW, but spends time with us. He has finished everyone of those darn chores. No his visits are for visiting.
So your saying to point blank ask are you looking for a way home?
And if I do who is the someone who could help us make the marriage happy and successful(sorry I'm slow, is that SAA?)
Oh, I'm certain the OW had something to do with him not coming over. And he said he had work to do too. Plus, he has been spending tons of his free time with you. Let her be the warden, LOL.
Rest up and enjoy the rest of the day with the kids.
The OW is probably LB'ing her heart out. I wouldn't contact him. I read on the OW board, and one of the things they HATE the most is when the WS spends time with the family.
She might even think that he had SF with you. That would be MOST EXCELLENT.
She might even think that he had SF with you. That would be MOST EXCELLENT.
LOL that made me giggle.
Well one can only hope her lil ole pea brain can figure out that he had SF with me!
LOLOLOL
Hopefully he does a bad job at explaining or lying whooo hoooo!
Nope not gonna contact him today! I am actually looking forward to the nap all this darn Plan A'ing is exhausting!
Hey I was thinking about starting a new post but all you guys may know the answer. So my question is, do you guys of any recovery stories that started Plna B during the holidays?
Well, no recovery story, but I went into Plan B about September, and heard absolutely NOTHING from WH until 2 days before Christmas when he called me at work and announced that he was in the process of moving back home.
Only problem was that he still wanted to stay in contact with the OW, so I kept him out.
Well I had a great Sunday nap!
H just sent a text page, almost 6 PM. He asked if DS10 was any better(abt his canceling plans on us today).
Below is our convo via text. Mind you he said he would call in 20 minutes after he canceled, to talk with son-he never did.
H: Is DS10 any better?
T2L: not really, he was very disappointed and surprisingly so was DD17.
H: well I did spend all of Saturday(
UH hello? anyone there, isn't that what all full time at home fathers do??)and I'm behind on reports and was exhausted we can always do this another day, I know you guys don't understand.
T2L: I understand and know how hard you work and needed rest. I agree its hard for kids to understand. Don't be too upset with kids they want their dad and its very hard for them
H: Goodnight
T2L: I'm grateful for the time you spent with us yesterday we had such a good time with you, we enjoyed you. It's just very hard for our son hes only 10 and he wants his dad, No worries ok.
T2L: G'night babe, I'm glad you got rest and caugth up. Thanks for all you've done. Please don't be too upset with the kids they just want their dad and are doing the best they can, they're awesome kids.
UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG
So how was my response? I think he's really mad at us? I mean why? He said he'd come over, he didn't, kids got disappointed, he asked, I told him, he got mad! Are we wrong? Should the kids have just said no biggie?
Okay so he's irritated with me, I mean I tried hard not to commit LB's when the truth in fact is I could have committed atrocities in huge LB proportions forget breaking the Love Bank, I'm wanted to go for the National Treasure!!! So what now. DD17 is ticked off pretty bad, she thinks its OW. Kids had planned to go to Regan Library so they were disappointed.
So what now? I'm trying to hear him, he says we don't understand. We as a family always wanted to be near daddy-all of us. He got so busy with work this new job he's had for 2 years, that he never had or wanted to put much effort into spending time with us especially kids. I think he see's this more and has admitted he's been a bad father. But his complaint was we don't understand. So I say all this to not commit LB, but is it so wrong for us to want to spend time with him. It's like what works for him is great and anything else doesn't matter or he gets angry about it. One good thing, he didn't go crazy angry. I felt like he wanted to but thank God he didn't.
Now what? Do I contact 1st or wait for him to? He shuts down alot and I worry if I don't reach out at some point he may not. I would like my Plan A to go til Nov 15th.
He was supposed to come over on Thursday and carve pumpkins and then trick or treating on Friday. I would like to confirm so DS10 doesn't get his hopes up.
This one is easy.
He's feeling guilty for letting DS10 down, so he takes it out on you.
But you don't care because you are the thermostat and the lighthouse. You will keep doing Plan A whether he's a lovey-poo or a poopie-head.
Whew....
thanks....I'm the light house. I think I'd fall over with out my mentors! I mean really! You guys are a huge blessing and my light house! I surely could not do this with out you guys, I feel like I'm that Verizon commercial where the whole network is standing behind the guy LOL. I mean really!
Plan A awaying......
You did a great job not LBing! Let OW do all that! I bet he caught some real flack from her and that's why he stayed away, but he felt guilty esp. about DS. Like turtle said, he took it out on you. You NOT LBing prolly turned the screws even more. He *wanted* you to not understand. He wanted to be able to say "My wife just doesn't understand me." But you offered him understanding.
Next time he does come over, can you make sure to get some perfume or lipstick on his clothes somewhere? Do you ever wear any of that glitter make-up? Without being obvious of course!
I feel like I'm that Verizon commercial where the whole network is standing behind the guy LOL.
Can you hear me now?
If you have glitter on your hands, maybe you can massage some onto his back where he can't see it.
As usual, I get here in time to be redundant. Yes, OW is cracking down, it made him mad but he couldn't tell you that, so he pointed all the blame anywhere else he could think of besides where he knows it belongs. No biggie, and you handled it well.
I don't know much first-hand about holiday Plan B's, unless you count Cinco de Mayo, lol. The second time around, I was hoping to get things tied up before our anniversary, which happened by a hair.
LMAO!!! I can hear you now!!! Load and clear!
Ewe...{{Muahhhahaahahaha}}
I like the perfume glitter thang! YES!!!!
Almost went for the hicky last SF(I know seems so 8th grade LOL) But a girls gotta do what a girls gotta do. Hicky yeah? Neah?
Hmm, I should get some of those scented oils that kinda stay on the skin then be sure to some how hug it off on him. Hmm can you say lip liner!!!!! Man why didn't I think of this sooner.! Brilliant! Need to start leaving my calling card and it says sorry Ho HO HO -he's taken LOL! :twobyfour: Oh sorry did my inner dialog sneak out again LMAO :crosseyedcrazy: J/K
So I just sent an email acted like everything is just peachy because I AM THE LIGHTHOUSE AND THERMOSTAT AND I HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS!!!(now counting backwards from 5,4,3,2,1 you will awake feeling refreshed and like a lighthouse hee hee hee-J/K)
Email to H said: "hope you got some rest you seemed like you've been really tired lately, thanks so much for fixing the bathroom sink and the truck brakes. (Admiration!) We all missed you today, hope you can forgive the kids for being upset they just wanted their daddy. Reminder for plans for this week: Were gonna carve pumpkins on Thursday, trick or treat Friday, DS football game Saturday and Sunday weigh-ins for DS playoff season. Your welcome to stay on the couch Saturday if Sunday weigh-ins are too early. Let us know if your able to come out anytime sooner than Thursday, have a really great day tomorrow and feel free to call anytime if your bored. {{hugs n kisses}} G'night"
Howz them Plan A apples! Doesn't look like we'll see him until Thursday but hopefully most of the weekend. We'll see.
I'll let ya'll know what he says about the email, if he responds at all.
Good idea, I'm gonna be getting something on him! Glitter, lip liner, perfume, if there's a will there is a way, but I think he's doing his own laundry. He's mentioned it a few times so I'm not sure she'll see it. Maybe a nice lil fingernail scratch or something. Sorry all is fair in love and war am I correct?? LOLOLOL
I'd prolly say no to the hickey, it's a bit obvious, right? I mean, he'd notice you doing it, right?
I wouldn't do the fingernail scratch unless you've been known to do it before.
But one thing you could do, just on a hug, is have some perfume or a smudge of make-up on your fingers, and when you hug you can rub your fingers on the back of his collar. Where he won't see it if he looks in the mirror.
There was a BW here who found glitter on her WH's underwear. Not good for her, but something you might like OW to experience. I'll let you figure out how to get it there.
I love reading your thread BTW. Every time I see you've updated, I say a little prayer that I hope it's good news.
Just a warning, I gave Flick a hicky very high on his thigh when I knew he was going to see OW a couple of days later, she retaliated by giving him one on his shoulder that I could see.
Hurts both ways, do take care of yourself.
HAving said that, Jayne suggestd I put a pair of my knickers in his overnight bag once. I seem to also remember her suggesting that I ring OW's parents and ask if she had been tested for STD's recently now WH and I had resumed marital relations
Okay hickys and scratches got voted out! I will be sure some make up gets on him. Wouldn't it be great to have it on the front of him so she see's it right away!
I don't think she does his laundry but i'll go for clothing and skin, but you sure can't hide scent. And If I'm wearing it the whole time he's here during the visit, he won't even notice if i get it on him as I hug him when he leaves! Perfect!!
Was that me???
I forgot about the retaliation. Yep, don't do it if you think you might get bit back.
I think it hurt because he let her, he admitted he liked being marked by two women, I told him he had just had the equivalant of being p*ssed on, is all
But also it was unexpected, if T2L expected the possibility....
And yes it was you, should I find the post and link it?
I forgot to mention this to you guys, so funny I just remembered it this morning when i was sharing it with someone.
Thursday when he was here at the house, he sat on the couch and I was in the kitchen and I throw my hands in the air and gleefully shout i've made it 6 months! He looks at me puzzled and say for what, I respond today is exactly 6 months to the day that my life changed and I made it and then I smiled! It was a good confident moment. Ya think that was ok to say in front of him?
Ya think that was ok to say in front of him?
Totally.
It shows that even though you don't like it at all, you don't quit breathing when he's not around.
Kids had planned to go to Regan Library so they were disappointed.
I'm pretty sure we live in the same general area. I live 4 miles west of Universal Studios. If you need a back up intermediary, let me know.
Pep
Oh very cool! Yeah I live in the same city as the Regan Library. We are very close, I'm going to taking a salsa class in North Hollywood tomorrow off of Lankershim, small world!!!!
Well I have mutual friends that have offered, I thought it would be easier for H if it was someone that he knew. What do you think? I wonder how many people used friends or relatives that spouses new and how many used people spouses did not know.
I actually have no problems and may consider your offer. I just don't want to piss him off more but him having to go to someone he doesn't know, what do ya'll think?
BTW I was wondering if everyone would post some of the PB conditions they used. Just curious.
I found the post on my thread that lists mine.
Just for review, here was my original list of boundaries.
Quote:
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1. Complete NC, and if contact occurs he must tell me. He thinks this will be easy, but when he gets up I will point him to Dr. H's articles on here so he can be prepared for the reality of temptation when it happens.
2. Honesty - total and complete. I told WH that if there was anything he wasn't ready to talk about yet, to just say that and we would come back to it later, but he has wanted to talk about everything so far.
3. Open-book policy - it was pretty close already, with me having complete access to his bank account and all emails, but there were several privacy fences up; one around his cell phone (or so he thought), and one around his IM. He knows I will be watching those closely.
4. Accountability for time - he offered to take me with him everywhere, and failing that to check in with me often and let me know what he's doing. In addition, he no longer cares if I access him on the GPS.
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[And he had already taken care of #5, the marriage counseling.]
For the sake of comparison, here is the new, improved list of boundaries that were to govern recovery #2, if there was to be a recovery #2.
Quote:
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What It Will Take
· Another letter to Gargamel, explaining that you will not communicate with her again—ever. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life. Period.
· In this letter you will also let her know that she has until the end of July to find alternate employment. I agreed to let her work for us on a temporary basis, and that time has long since passed. [We shortened this time period to last only until the end of the payroll she was currently in.]
· Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. This not only includes not lying to me, but means not giving me a false perception of something, as you tried to do with the phone calls. No lies, no evasion, no covering, just the full and complete truth.
· Commit to weekly marriage counseling with me, whether by phone or in person. After all this trauma, we need every possible advantage in order to recover our marriage.
· Keep in close touch the way you have been. I am willing to do the same to reassure you.
· Resign from [the job where the A began]. Your phone calls began again just after you started to work there for the first time since breaking up with her.
· Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible. This includes, but is not limited to:
o Trade cell phones using the phones from you, [and several other employees], and do not give her the new number.
o Give me your current cell phone (instead of [the one I have now]).
o Block her number from your phone.
o Get caller-ID-blocking blocked so there are no blocked numbers on the phone bill.
o Block all of her email addresses from all of your email addresses.
o Delete her from every possible contact list you have.
o Get rid of anything she has given you, cards, memorabilia, anything at all. (The tools will be paid for, and belong to the company anyway.)
o If you have to schedule her for the short time she remains with our company, institute employee numbers instead of names. [By now the sound of her name is so unpleasant for both of us that we refer to her as A Certain Person so we don't have to name her directly.]
o She will not hold any position in the company except [the one she now holds], and that only through July 31 at the latest. [He had previously been trying to get me to give her more assignments, such as scheduling all the employees. I will try to remember to say more about that later.]
o I will continue to deal with all money issues relating to repaying her loans to you. I will let you know once the money is all paid off, but other than that don’t bring it up. You can believe that I will pay it off as fast as humanly possible.
o Do not mention her in the context of the present. She has no more part in our lives. That means you don’t ask how she is doing, if I have mailed her check, or anything current. It is as if she is now dead, and has no place among the living. (The only time her name will ever come up is in dealing with something affair-related.)
o Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. If you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.
If this agreement is broken, at that point the only way I would even think of continuing to be married to you is if we move out of state, far from this area. (Carson City is not nearly far enough, Westby might be.) And, to be very blunt, depending on the level of dishonesty, especially in the face of all these precautions, I might very well decide to end things at that point.
You need to have some glimmer of how badly this recent episode has hurt me, in spite of how calm I have been in talking to you about it. After I compiled the list of phone calls showing just how many times you had called her, and had her call you right back, and exactly how long you talked each time, I walked quietly into the bathroom. For a little while I thought I might just throw up, but instead broke into hysterical, wordless sobbing. I have no idea how long I cried, but it was a long while.
I will not let this continue. There will be no accidents or second chances. There will be no excuses, and no reasons for any type of contact, at any time, ever. No matter how much trouble it might be to put these things into place, it is little enough to prevent the kind of agony I have suffered, and am still suffering now. I will not risk being hurt like this again. I love you enough that I am willing to try one more time, and I hope and pray you will decide to take that chance.
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Whatever else you might think about it, there is no arguing that the second list is far more comprehensive than the first. I also made it very clear that if thought of further precautions, they would be added to the list at that time.
Please take this very much to heart: you can never have too many precautions.
Well, maybe you could, but you'd have to try really hard. Don't neglect this little stuff. The Bible says it is the little foxes that spoil the grapes. Because of how repentant AJ had been at the beginning, I underestimated the hold the A still had on him, and just didn't think all that was necessary.
It is far better to do it right from the start.
I actually have no problems and may consider your offer.
You can get my email by contacting dufresne.mb@gmail.com
I was still trying to figure out who JustUss is, then they went and added all the other mods, too. Sigh.
Re intermediaries, I got stuck and ended using MIL. I don't recommend it, it put an aweful strain on our relationship which is still there where as previously we were closer than my own mother and I.
Recovery condition....
Steps to Recovery
1. Write a no contact letter that I see and I post stating something like you love me and your family and the affair was a huge mistake. You intend to work on the marriage and want no contact with her for any reason for ever.
2. An apology.
3. Full disclosure as required. This should not be for long, only till I have understood everything.
4. Read Dr. Harley's basic concepts, more than once if necessary
5. Abide by the MB principles.
6. Give me all passwords to your accounts and accept for a small while I will need to feel I can check up on you for reassurance. This will not be for long.
7. Change the incoming text tone on your cell. This one is a bit silly but I have come to hate that particular tone to the point I sometimes fantasised blowing away the cell with the shotgun
8. Apologise to the girls, and make plans to spend time with the as they state in their request lists.
9. Change your status to married on your facebook and bebo pages.
10. Remove her as a friend, disown her pictures, and discard any and all gifts and pictures you have of her.
When he came back for the 2nd recovery these were backed up by some EP's he and I wrote and he posted on MB. Oh yeah the second recovery had one additional requirement.... start a thread on MB and post to it at least twice a week. Now he only has to once a week, but still seems to wiggle his way out
Still at least for those early days it did help alot and even when he does post and read now I notice slight improvements.
Get some of that Patchouli oil stuff - that stuff clings for weeks! We had an engineer at work who wore it and you could smell it a week after she was in the conference room.
Here's today's update.
Well I took all your advice acted like his lil attitude over the kids being upset yesterday didn't even happen.
Sent him that email thanking him for being my personal handy man and what a great job he did and I could have never done that myself, then verified all the plans for the week and said call me if your bored.
So he emailed me back and said I'll call you with all the answers. He called at 1 PM. At 1st he said that he was frustrated over everyone being upset, so I say no one was that bad kids just wanted daddy, you know how kids are, I took advantage of the time to take a nap, did you get some rest? Then he verifies plans ready for this, He will be with us Thursday evening for pumpkins carving, Friday for trick or treating, Saturday for son's games(mentioned he could stay the night), and back Sunday morning to take DS10 to football weigh in in the morning, lunch after church and hanging out for the day! Can you say Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday LMAO! I hope OW gets pissed! I had also asked him to take a Saturday off so he got the 8th off and were going to do a day trip with the kids!!!
So gots lots of stuff planned the next 4 day, even a few {{quick close your ears}} naughty things which I told him about (BTW this is a 180 for me).
Thanks for all your conditions guys its really really helpful! Be back in a bit gotta go get DS10 from practice....
Wow. Good job.
Remember, no expectations. But it sure seems promising to me.
First of all, you handled his frustration over everyone being disappointed in him with MUCH more finesse than I could have managed, and I have a long fuse and tons of self control. I bet your inner dialogue was screaming "Of COURSE we're disappointed, you've abandoned us and you're IN AN AFFAIR!!" but you were cool as a cucumber. I am in awe.
Then he verifies plans ready for this, He will be with us Thursday evening for pumpkins carving, Friday for trick or treating, Saturday for son's games(mentioned he could stay the night), and back Sunday morning...
HE suggested that?
You might want to start figuring out what the requirements are for him moving home, in case he wants to "stay over" more and more and then just move on back. No expectations, just getting your ducks in a row, like you have done with the Plan B letter. Contingency plans, nothing more.
So gots lots of stuff planned the next 4 day, even a few {{quick close your ears}} naughty things which I told him about (BTW this is a 180 for me).
First of all, congrats for breaking out of your comfort zone and familiar behavior. If he responds positively to this 180 behavior of yours, then you need to keep it permanently.
Sounds like things couldn't be going any better.
Get some of that Patchouli oil stuff - that stuff clings for weeks! We had an engineer at work who wore it and you could smell it a week after she was in the conference room.
One of my biologists here at work wears it.
I LOVE the way it smells.
Reminds me of my favorite aunt.
A lot of the organic markets carry it.
Then he verifies plans ready for this, He will be with us Thursday evening for pumpkins carving, Friday for trick or treating, Saturday for son's games(mentioned he could stay the night), and back Sunday morning...
HE suggested that?
No actually I suggested it since he said part of the reason for canceling on Sunday was because he was exhausted and didn't want to drive(hour away). So I offered. I have offered 2 times so far, but he has not taken the offer(I'm sure because he'll get h3ll fire from OW). We chatted on phone a bit yesterday evening, we talk about how beautiful the weather was today and says he's on the patio-I of course wanna say Oh the patio of your and OW's place but I held my tongue and just agreed and changed subject
Yes I am working on my conditions now.
Oh good I'm glad you mentioned that I was wondering where I can get the oils at. So health food stores?
Hey guys I'm working on my conditions. I have a few questions and need your feedback.
Ok when I started noticing him gone more he said he didn't want to brave the traffic during rush hour, so he would stop at a restaurant and go to the bar. Personally until I feel trust is restored I want him to come straight home-No Bars. When he told me, he said he had to drink more to kill the guilt and more he drank the less he felt for me and the more he felt for OW. His drinking went from 2 or 3 a day to probably 6 a day during that time.
I want solid conditions for our protections should he come home, but I don't want them so hard he'll give up. What do you all say about that?
Yes, not so hard that he'll give up, they must be do-able for a reasonable person. But a WS isn't always a reasonable person.
One thing you could ask is if he *is* going to be late getting home or not come straight home, that he is to call you right away. You should know where he is at all times. I think some ppl have their WS's call them when they leave work, so they'll know how long it should take them to get home.
No bars is a very reasonable request. Going to bars is not necessary to sustain life or mental health.
Ok guys this is what i have so far for my conditions. Let me know if you think its overboard or if there is something I can add to it.......
CONDITIONS TO COME HOMELetter to Toad, explaining that you will not communicate with her EVER again. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life stating something like you love me and your family and the affair was a huge mistake and that your wife didn't deserve this and you intend to work on the marriage and want no contact with her for any reason for ever. Period. When you are finished with this letter it should be given to me so I may insure its mailing.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go.(1 month in he said we can still be married I will just stay somewhere else 3 days a week, I obviously said NO and he proceeded to tell me that its because I'm black and white)
Full and complete disclosure. Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. I want to be able to ask as much as needed and then move on. No lies or hiding any part of truth, no covering, just the full and complete truth.
Read Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book. Join the MB forum so you have support while going through recovery and stay on forum for at least 6-8 months, posting at least 4 times weekly.
Cut off all ties to any new friends or family you made by this Affair. No phone calls or emails to and from them.
No discussion of the Toad. No crying over her in front of me or speaking about her in my presence unless I have asked.(when he came home the 1st time I let him cry over her funky butt in front of me I even comforted him EWEEEEEE!
)
Change Cell phone number and close down all emails and use the family email account and tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. Iif contact is made and if you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.
Since she previously worked at employer and everyone there knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
Close secret email accounts that you started when communicating with her. Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible.
Close down personal bank account and use family bank account.(I found him hiding money before discovery and that's when I knew all wasn't well
). All deposits will be made into joint bank account.
Get rid of anything she has given you, cards, memorabilia, anything at all.
Accountability for time until trust is restored. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
Understand the pain and misery that this affair has put on the family and by breaking or refusal of conditions it would be at the cost of the marriage.
Oh good I'm glad you mentioned that I was wondering where I can get the oils at. So health food stores?
I know Whole Foods has it...and Sun Harvest.
Join the MB forum so you have support while going through recovery and stay on forum for at least 6-8 months, posting at least 4 times weekly.
If this happens - your WH should ask for TST's support (male MB member with exceptional FWH insight who can call "bullchit" when necessary - and still let a guy be a guy)
No discussion of the Toad. No crying over her in front of me...I don't think this is realistic. He *will* miss her. He may cry over hurting her, and over hurting you at the same time. It's a DJ on your part to think you know what he's crying about, unless he explicitly tells you. I think it's better to encourage complete honesty in the marriage. If he needs to mourn the A, then he needs to feel safe doing so. Doesn't mean you have to comfort him (and reward it), just that he can do it w/o getting punished for his transparency.
Accountability for time until trust is restored. Accountability for time for life. And that goes for both of you. It's just what married people do.
You might also put in there that you're allowed to put a key logger on the computer, that you can put a GPS on the car(s), and that he will swap personal cellphones with you at your request at any time.
Understand the pain and misery that this affair has put on the family and by breaking or refusal of conditions it would be at the cost of the marriage.If you make an ultimatum like this, you better be 100% prepared to back it up. i.e. if he cries about the Toad in front of you, are you willing to kick him out, put the house for sale, and file for D so fast his head will spin?
It's a great start! I think you're setting the bar at a very reasonable level. High enough to have a M worth having, and not so high that it's unrealistic (well, except that crying bit
)
I was wondering if it's safe for her to invite him to MB right away? Does she need a safe place to discuss strategies like snooping, without him finding out?
No discussion of the Toad. No crying over her in front of me...
I don't think this is realistic. He *will* miss her. He may cry over hurting her, and over hurting you at the same time.
Ok I will adjust this, I thought I had read in the SAA book that he recommended having him do that privately, but maybe it was another book, I'll look.
Accountability for time until trust is restored.
Accountability for time for life. And that goes for both of you. It's just what married people do.
Gonna fix that too!
You might also put in there that you're allowed to put a key logger on the computer, that you can put a GPS on the car(s), and that he will swap personal cellphones with you at your request at any time.
Ok his computer he uses most is the company laptop, can I do this as well? This is how I believe he was able to hide it, he rarely ever uses the home PC. You don't think the Car GPS is too much although I'm all for it, just don't want to send him over the edge.
Understand the pain and misery that this affair has put on the family and by breaking or refusal of conditions it would be at the cost of the marriage.
Good point, not sure what I feel or want if he refuses or doesn't abide by them. Don't know if I'll want it or not til i get there.
I like pretty much everything in your letter, except your first paragraph. He has to write her the conditions of no contact-- HE has to gove (or not give) his reasons.
If you make it too "bossy" (first say this...say this..say that..) it will sound like it is coming from YOU and OW have a sixth sense for that
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND
- Wouldn't you rather HEAR from him his reasons for coming home?
I like your general terms, good luck to you.
No discussion of the Toad. No crying over her in front of me...
I don't think this is realistic. He *will* miss her. He may cry over hurting her, and over hurting you at the same time.
Ok I will adjust this, I thought I had read in the SAA book that he recommended having him do that privately, but maybe it was another book, I'll look.
I disagree.
I think a WH can bloody well excuse himself to the privacy of the bathroom to cry over TOAD.
This is my vote:
"If you are going to grieve the loss of TOAD, excuse yourself from the room first."
I disagree.
I think a WH can bloody well excuse himself to the privacy of the bathroom to cry over TOAD.
This is my vote:
"If you are going to grieve the loss of TOAD, excuse yourself from the room first."
hear hear. I put up with his moping during the false recovery, was not interested this time. No sadness is ever shown in front of me, no sympathy is given
I mean I am in full understanding that he will mourn her and may miss her. I've been through it once already and understand the withdrawal symptoms of it too, but I would rather he mourn in private or when he is away for 10 hours at work.
I do understand he may need a neutral space where he can be him self, but I truthfully don't want to see it. There have been months and months where I did not cry in front of my children for their benefit and security. I felt it was not fair they see mom constantly like that so I mourned at mid-night and I cried in the shower.
I think maybe it can be approached in a way that is beneficial to both of us. I just don't want to necessarily look at him constantly moping and crying over her. Is that wrong?
I just don't want to necessarily look at him constantly moping and crying over her. Is that wrong?
Of course it's not wrong!
Sometimes they don't do the expected grieving. My H did not.
It depends how long the A has been going on. The closer to 2 years the more the A has lost it's fizzle anyway (especially if they live
together ... it makes the whole thing a lot less romantic)
Dear God 2 years!!!! I have just made it to my 1st goal of 6 months I am hoping to make it to 12 months, but 2 years Dear God!!! So your H did not grieve. Lucky you! When my H came home for the 2 weeks after discovery he stinking cried all the time, he moped, he sighed as soon as his eyes opened, he asked me to pray for her, he asked me if we could give her money, I mean man how much self respect must one take. It was really hard and I felt like crap.
Yeah I think that them living together can definitely have it's advantage. Waking up to each other, taking out the trash, her not doing laundry or cooking. I talked to him today after he got home from work and he was eating Top Ramen again...ick
He texted me a few days ago saying your a good mother. I'm wondering if he can see she is not. The 1st 5 months he kept chewing me out asked me what kind of mother doesn't force their kids to visit him bashed me all kinds of ca ca. But the fact that he said that was interesting to me. OW has been divorced, was engaged when she did this, she has 3 kids ages 18, 14, 9. The 14 year old girl was getting in trouble with the police so much she had to ship her off, so I am assuming H lives w/OW and her 9 year old son. I mean what kinda of woman moves in a strange man with a child who does not know him?!?!?! Sick!!!! Anyways I think he notices her parenting.
You misunderstand me.
His affair was almost 2 years old when I discovered it.
Most affairs last around 2 years, then die out.
Gotcha!
Well we got H coming over tomorrow for pumpkin carving and dinner. Gonna have everything ready (domestic needs) nice dinner and a clean house!
Should go well, I'm sure he'll be looking forward to dinner since he ramen yesterday LMAO!!!!
Pumpkin carving... hmmm...
I've been told that the smell of pumpkin pie baking (with the pumpkin pie spice, including cinnamon) is one of the best aphrodisiacs for men. Seriously. Better than perfume.
Now, I wonder how that info might come in handy............
MuahMauhhahahahahhah Yes! I'm buying pumpkin pie today!!!!!!!! And I'm so not kidding! Plus gonna try to hit up the health food store for that oil B recommended. I hope it smells good, hes kinda picky he might find out my evil plan to swipe some of that on his shirt!!!!
I disagree.
I think a WH can bloody well excuse himself to the privacy of the bathroom to cry over TOAD.
Yup, yup, for sure.
I don't know how I got it into my head that he was expected not to grieve. He can do that snivelly stuff on his own dime.
Regarding the pie - see if you can make one (canned pumpkin pie filling and a frozen crust makes it EASY). The smell will waft everywhere.
Yes, you can get a can of pumpkin pie filling, and a frozen pie crust. Even I can do that. Just don't forget to take the piece of paper out of the frozen pie crust before pouring in the filling, like I did once.
(Never bake before coffee!)
Have it be just finished baking, or maybe still baking, when he shows up.
ETA: Don't use the oil at the same time as the pie. Wait until after the pie smell has died down, or save the oil for another night, is my advice.
The P oil can be found all over - health food places, smoke shops, etc. It costs about 7 dollars here in California, but the good thing is that it will last around 10 years. Just put some on your fingers, and shake hands with hubby, and it is guaranteed to follow him for the next 2 days.
I've heard about the pumpkin pie and spice thing and men. Try that. I like the pie mix where you add eggs and evaporated milk - it tastes much better to me. Or you COULD use the real pumpkin - you just boil the insides.
Be careful with the patchouli oil, it is
very strong, a little goes a loooong way. Start with very little, better safe than overwhelming!
Love in Christ,
Miss M
You could also serve watermelon early on in the day.
Watermelon is a natural aphrodisiac.
How Does it Work?
Watermelon contains an ingredient called citrulline. Citrulline reacts with enzymes to trigger the body's release of a chemical called arginine. The result of increased arginine levels is relaxed blood vessels, scientists at Texas A&M say the effect is similar to Viagra.
While citrulline is found in all parts of the watermelon, the rind is 60 percent richer in the ingredient. And even higher doses are found in yellow-fleshed watermelons.
Before you decide to nix the melon at the company picnic this summer, realize that watermelon doesn't work exactly like Viagra. It isn't organ specific like the prescription drug is. But watermelon is a tasty and refreshing way to invigorate circulation without any drug side effects.
And wear red. I just saw yesterday where men are attracted to red.
And be sure to always open the door with your NON-dominant hand. It aligns your spine and puts your body and mind in harmony with your heart.
Okay, so I made that up. It just went so well with the patchouli oil and all the other aphrodisiac advice. I had nothing to offer, so I pulled it out of my... well, I made it up.
OMG OMG OMG!!!
I flipping love you guys your are hilarious!
So if I paint myself red, eat water melon and serve him watermelon with my left hand, brush my teeth with patchouli oil and throw salt over my left shoulder my odds seem really good!
LMAO LMAO LMAO! Heck who needs Plan A or B with all this stuff.
Okay I can't breath its just way too funny-and yet I'm still going to do it......LOLOLOLOLOLOL
LMAO!!!!! NOT so early in the morning. I spewed my coffee all over my clean work clothes!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, we MB folks have a lot more than MB plans up our sleeves.....
Don't forget to paint your fingernails red.
Slut red.
Does it for the Wookie every time.
Men!
I have a recipe for pickled watermelon rind somewhere. Wonder if the pickling would kill the ooh-la-la enzymes?
Seems to be the only way to eat the rind, huh? Otherwise, BLECH!
((((passing the Tide pen to Believer)))
(giggle)
You forgot the scented candles. If you fit a candelabra with shoulder straps, you can take them with you wherever you go.
Oh great.
Now I have a visual of TTL running down the road, naked, painted red, candles (and hair!) aflame, reeking of patchouli oil smoke, leaving broken pumpkin pies scattered in her wake.
It's quite exciting, but does it fill an EN?
We better stop or we're gonna have to put a Depends warning on the thread.
It's getting "wet yer pants" funny.
Oh...and in case of burns, I've got the grandmother of all aloe plants....
(giggle)
Oh great.
Now I have a visual of TTL running down the road, naked, painted red, candles (and hair!) aflame, reeking of patchouli oil smoke, leaving broken pumpkin pies scattered in her wake.
It's quite exciting, but does it fill an EN?
You forgot the watermelon. After THAT image, he's gonna NEED an aphrodisiac. Don't leave anything out! :RollieEyes:
Don't forget to paint your fingernails red.
Slut red.
Does it for the Wookie every time.
Men!
who cares about fingernails - it doesn't work at all without the lipstick included
I don't I've laughed that hard in a while, I guess it's Halloween so I guess it won't hurt if I do, right?? LOL
Okay, so I talk to H for an hour this morning on the phone. WE had some financial stuff to go over with the mortgage as were in a re-structuring thing with attorneys.
So I just happen to notice this morning that his new address is on my credit report, so i call him and say hey we need to finish filling out the forms so they can get started but I noticed your address is on my credit report. I say the attorneys want to know everything, is that apartment in your name, he says yes! I wanted to go off and LB his a$$ all over the place, I started to feel myself be over come with rage! I sweetly say, ok wow, I thought you moved in with her and the apartment is in her name. He says I know you don't like to talk about this stuff, and I say no i don't, he says but my credit was better but all our names are on the lease, she had her credit ran too. WTF WTF WTF!!! Ok sorry ranting on the floor!
I did however freeze my credit the day he left so no credit can be extended in my name and I did tell him that too.
I then explain to him that anything he does financially right now effects me because we are fully married and he says I know, I'll see if I can go to the leasing office tomorrow and see if I can remove my name. I say yes I would like that as soon as possible. I say we need accurate information when filling out everything, how are we going to deal with 2 bank accounts. I say I have no idea of what you make, I just know you put money in.
So i get a little bit of a better picture, he says I pay a portion for my rent and my food and that's it. Guess that's why he always eats ramen and does all his own laundry. Sounds like they live completely divided.
So I guess she is paying for her half and her son. He says we will just tell them I rent out a place for a few days a week when I work in San Diego, which he does a day or 2 a week. Ya know funny thing is a week ago when I was telling how hard it is for DS10 he says well can't you tell him that I just stay down here for work? I say no I can't hes old enough to know and most fathers are home every night.
I was good, I remained calm, did not commit any love busters, and we quickly moved through that and into another conversation.
{{Breath}} He will be here later for pumpkin carving.
Over all I'm feeling closer to having my head and heart in sync for Plan B. I am refusing to allow my self to feel bad over him spending the holidays alone as he has no problem having me share him during the holidays.
I personally think a lot of the reason he is staying is he feels responsible for her. Now I'm going to revise my conditions being sure to add removal of name from lease if he doesn't do that in the next few days.
Awe forget it guys I'm just gonna go dip in a pool of red fire retardant paint just to be sure I've covered all the bases being sure to smile with eyes wide open while I'm submerged so I get my teeth and the whites of my eyes!
Surely I'll be really attractive then,
I'll answer the door with my left hand with and in my right hand pumpkin pie and watermelon. Mounted on my head will be the candelabra of scented Patchouli oil candles did forget anything?
You're amazingly in control. I don't know if I woulda been able to not LB. Good that he's gonna get his name off the lease.
I am refusing to allow my self to feel bad over him spending the holidays alone
Don't feel bad for him. It's his choice, right? You'd be happy to have him join you for the holidays, right? As your HUSBAND. Right? He can come home whenever he wants, as long as he commits to being your H again. So if he is alone, it's his choice.
I personally think a lot of the reason he is staying is he feels responsible for her.
Could be. Too bad he doesn't feel so responsible for his wife and kids. But it seems he's getting there!
Now I'm going to revise my conditions being sure to add removal of name from lease if he doesn't do that in the next few days.
Great idea!
Red body paint, candelabra hat, hit him in the face with a watermelon rind and a pumpkin pie as he walks through the door... what else?
Oh yes don't forget the bucket of patchouli oil perched precariously over the door so it dumps on him as he walks through.
TRICK OR TREAT!!!
Wwwwweeeeelllllll.....
It IS Halloween.
Be sure it's done seductively and with L.O.V.E. This IS Plan A, after all!
Don't forget the Monkey Fart!
There is a new fragrance out there-you guessed it- called "monkey fart" (go ahead, you disbelieving haters --check!) It is going to make you and your house smell great! While you are at it you can also get a bottle of that "butt naked" scent too!
If you burn them together..you have.. all together now..
"BUTT NAKED MONKEY FART!"
Any time you start wanting to kill him slowly and painfully, or at least to love bust, think of the image you just described, and you'll be able to smile and go on.
Okay, so I talk to H for an hour this morning on the phone. WE had some financial stuff to go over with the mortgage as were in a re-structuring thing with attorneys.
Are you sure you want to get locked into anything with WH right now? Does this restructuring make his life easier? Does it make your life easier? Not to be nosy, but sometimes the worst thing you can do while he's a WH is to help him finance anything.
This is a good point, but at this point, its either lose the house, which we bought at high time at the end of 2006 and put in my name only, so If anyone burns its going to be me. It helps me probably more than him and my kids have begged him not to move them from this home. His job has taken a bit of a dip due to the housing market since it's related to it.
We moved to this new city when we bought this home which was a difficult adjustment for them, but now they love it here.
Ok I'm sneaking on cuz he's out working on his Laptop. So he came over house was wreaking of pumpkin pie and cinnamon apple candles, I make him some lunch and him and son carve 1 of his 2 pumpkins.
K get ready{{quick cover the kids ears}}
so son goes into the game room to start up his video game so him and dad can play. H and I are in the family room, I walk by him and he grabs me(sorry I can't tell you where or how or what was said cuz it's just too graphic-YES!!!!!)
and we kiss really fast cuz son is calling him!
So I think there is something to the pumpkins...LMAO.....Hurry everyone go make pumpkin pie NOW!
Just think I have even painted myself red, got the candelabra out, or even don't the water melon!
K back later....
Good job. Hang in there and remember you only have to be this welcoming SIREN for another 2 weeks.
My name on the lease would have made ME blow a gasket!!!! You are doing EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!
or even don't the water melon!
erm, RIGHT.
I agree, I would have gone nuclear on his azz if he'd put MY name on Toad's lease.
He is gonna feel gut-punched when you go dark.
Has he made any "I wanna come home" noises?
My ex had his name on his kid's mom's lease (so the kids would have a place to live). It cost us $4500. by the time she was done, and she only paid rent for the first month. YIKES!!!
Ok how many of you want what really happened, and how many just want the tidbits. I have no problem giving you all the juicy details as long as no one freaks out on me. I really don't mind telling ya'll cuz you ALL CRACK ME THE H3LL UP! I mean really who needs TV or books when I can listen to you all.
So let me know, wouldn't mind the feedback, had a few icky's that I think I maneuvered around ok but I am a lil bit down
about it so let me know how transparent you all want me to be and if the general majority say go for it then I will and if the general majority say no thanks then I won't share it all.
So??????
I WANT JUICY!!!!!
Hurry so I can go to sleep!!!
Might as well spill it, chickie, or you're liable to get :twobyfour: .
Ok Im posting it for you now Jayne241, whoever reads from this point forward if its too much for you stop reading now and back up....Read at your own risk.
He arrived about 4PM, hung out with us visited, then at one point my son went to put on a video game and I walked passed him and he grabbed me and was groping me, really if it wasn't for my son we would have had sex right there, but then son called him so he went with him for a bit to play video games.
So he just left its about 9:45. We got to have dinner alone(and pre-dinner lap dance including SF-Whoo whoo, which he said thanks he loved it and I did a great job-thank God I was really nervous!) This was a 180 for me as I never initiated in the past.
Ok so ya wanna hear the bummer, so he had a hickie on his front shoulder(which I notice during the start of the lap dance), I wanted to come unglued, but I didn't, I just continued the routine. I actually played it off real well, i think, I just looked at it during SF and I said with a smile, hmmm, not liking your hickie and continued on SF. He says oh I just banged my self at work, and kinda had a STUPID look on his face, which I played along with. I said Hmmm, doesn't look like it to me and I laughed.
We get done and go to the bathroom and get cleaned up and dressed(ok I might have LB here-you tell me) and as were getting dressed I smile and look at him and laugh and I say that is a hickie and he plays stupid and looks away and say no I hit myself at work, I a joke around and say, no way buddy OW worried and she's marking her territory and he says no my kids are here.(huh?) Then we go and have dinner together and enjoy nice conversation.
Kids get back and the evening goes by we carve the pumpkins have dessert and then he gets ready to leave and we kinda chat with each other at the door and i say, when can we do this again(SF) And he laughs and says are you enjoying having me around to visit and I say what is this a trick question(were kinda smiling and its very light hearted) I say well, kinda I mean what can I do, and he says not much I guess.(Jack a$$) LOL Sorry its that darn inner dialog again.
He says well your happy with getting SF(basically) Well he has had this kinda erection issue(not at full attention if you know what I mean just the 3 times we've gotten together during the last 4 weeks) not as well as he used to(Pre-sex with OW, that's when I really wondered and I did not know yet about the A).
So I'm kinda beating around the bush because I wanna know what the h3ll is the deal. Maybe he just is not attracted to me anymore and just isn't into me, is it nerves or what I mean what is it? I'm really kinda fishing right now and he says what are you wondering my intentions? I say well that wasn't what I wanted to ask but your welcome to volunteer that if you'd like , and I drop it and so does he.
So I finally ask, I say ok, if it wasn't for the fact that I know I'm kinda cute I would have serious self esteem problems right now and he say well what do you mean(the tone is still playful and I'm smiling) I say well your not getting hard the way you used to and it takes a while, whats the deal? He says T2L, you are beautiful and if you weren't I wouldn't do it. He says you have nothing to worry about(yeah right!)
So what do ya'll think about the night????
She smeared pumpkin flavored lipstick on his collar, and accidentally dropped the patchouli bottle (open slightly) onto the fly of his trousers and shorts. She then inadvertently responded to his complaint of an itching back by overzealously scratching it, leaving him with a number of long, raking abrasions along the length of his skin. That must be the time when her shiny red nail came off and completely disappeared so that no one will be able to find it until he returns "home", where his l'il darlin' will find it snagged inside his not-every-minute-obviously
underwear. His personal, private tresses are strangely singed--apparently too close of an encounter with the shoulder candelabra--and the fire appears to have been extinguished with watermelon juice, and a certain amount of partially-masticated pulp.
Your story was probably more entertaining for YOU, but this one would have been WAY entertaining for him once he flopped at the flop's house! :MrEEk:
tl
ooo la la....
I was hoping you'd say you decided to ignore our hickey advice, and mark him yourself! As long as she'd already given him one, it couldn't hurt for you to do the same... unless he'd see through that and it would be an LB...
The comment about "No my kids are here" doesn't make a lot of sense bt if it means anything I think he meant it to say his real place is there, with you and his kids, so he's not really "her" territory. JMHO.
I truly admire your self control. You rock!
Over all I'd say it was great! Too bad about the bummer. Mark him yourself somehow... I wonder if she knows and did it on purpose.
Hmmm..... so next time she tries to give him a hickey, if he tries to stop her, she's gonna KNOW why.
Mom, her version was good, but I like yours better.
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMGOMGOOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG
You are hilarious, you are a great writer!
Wow he just sent a goodnight text, I say yes it was a goodnight, thanks for making the sacrifice of coming out to do pumpkins with us after working a long day, we enjoyed your company, glad your home safe.(Covered admiration for the day).
Whew, Okay regroup and refocus, tomorrow he is back for dinner and trick or treating, but he did say he'd call if he gets done early. Oh Yeah! Butttttt.....NO EXPECTATIONS!
Well, it's HER fault he frizzled his pubic hair. After all that advice on how to be sexy and seductive--and she did her BEST--when he was unable to resist her and cooed, "Come on, Baby, light my fire"...well, she and her shoulder candelabra did just that!:MrEEk:
"You light up my life, my passionate wife; you've set me ablaze in this strange, mystic maze...I feel
smokin' hot, even
burning in spots 'cuz You. Light. Up. My. Liiiiiiiiiiiiiiife."
Medic!!!
[u]He arrived about 4PM, hung out with us visited, then at one point my son went to put on a video game and I walked passed him and [b]he grabbed me and was groping me, really if it wasn't for my son we would have had sex right there, but then son called him so he went with him for a bit to play video games.
HE initiated, this is good.
So he just left its about 9:45. We got to have dinner alone(and pre-dinner lap dance including SF-Whoo whoo, which he said thanks he loved it and I did a great job-thank God I was really nervous!) This was a 180 for me as I never initiated in the past.
YOU initiated, this is good. Of course he loved it, what man wouldn't?
Ok so ya wanna hear the bummer, so he had a hickie on his front shoulder(which I notice during the start of the lap dance), I wanted to come unglued, but I didn't, I just continued the routine. I actually played it off real well, i think, I just looked at it during SF and I said with a smile, hmmm, not liking your hickie and continued on SF. He says oh I just banged my self at work, and kinda had a STUPID look on his face, which I played along with. I said Hmmm, doesn't look like it to me and I laughed.
We get done and go to the bathroom and get cleaned up and dressed(ok I might have LB here-you tell me) and as were getting dressed I smile and look at him and laugh and I say that is a hickie and he plays stupid and looks away and say no I hit myself at work, I a joke around and say, no way buddy OW worried and she's marking her territory and he says no my kids are here.(huh?) Then we go and have dinner together and enjoy nice conversation.
FACT: He is stil having sex with OW. You KNOW this. Why torture yourself with asking him anything about THEIR goings on. I know it hurts like heck but for now, if you're willing to continue to have sex with him, you're gonna have to let that go.
Kids get back and the evening goes by we carve the pumpkins have dessert and then he gets ready to leave and we kinda chat with each other at the door and i say, when can we do this again(SF) And he laughs and says are you enjoying having me around to visit and I say what is this a trick question(were kinda smiling and its very light hearted) I say well, kinda I mean what can I do, and he says not much I guess.(Jack a$$) LOL Sorry its that darn inner dialog again.
He says well your happy with getting SF(basically)
Plan B is going to shake him to the core because right now he's is cakeeating BIG TIME. He's getting his EN met by you and OW.
Well he has had this kinda erection issue(not at full attention if you know what I mean just the 3 times we've gotten together during the last 4 weeks) not as well as he used to(Pre-sex with OW, that's when I really wondered and I did not know yet about the A).
So I'm kinda beating around the bush because I wanna know what the h3ll is the deal. Maybe he just is not attracted to me anymore and just isn't into me, is it nerves or what I mean what is it? I'm really kinda fishing right now and he says what are you wondering my intentions? I say well that wasn't what I wanted to ask but your welcome to volunteer that if you'd like , and I drop it and so does he.
So I finally ask, I say ok, if it wasn't for the fact that I know I'm kinda cute I would have serious self esteem problems right now and he say well what do you mean(the tone is still playful and I'm smiling) I say well your not getting hard the way you used to and it takes a while, whats the deal? He says T2L, you are beautiful and if you weren't I wouldn't do it. He says you have nothing to worry about(yeah right!)
I suspect the ED may have something to do with his guilt, but that's just a huge guess. It could be medical, physical, emotional, I don't know, but it's obviously a problem. Sometimes medications interfere, but regardless, I'm not so sure you should be asking him about this at this point. He may start to question his "performance". I don't know, anybody else?
So what do ya'll think about the night????
I think you are amazing. I just hope you sent him back to HER with some lingering scents and ALL USED UP.
Ok so ya wanna hear the bummer, so he had a hickie on his front shoulder(which I notice during the start of the lap dance), I wanted to come unglued, but I didn't, I just continued the routine.
This is not a bummer at all! While I'm sure it was anything but fun to see that, you *know* he's living with OW and that they're having sex, so it's not new depressing knowledge. I don't mean to downplay how bad you must have felt. I'm sure it was horrible seeing that hickey - I'd have been physically ill, myself. I don't know where you find your strength and composure, I really don't.
But... OW is so desperate she's resorted to marking her territory. That was NOT a mark of passion. Marks of passion would have been way early in the A, probably when he first moved in with her and they didn't have to keep the A secret any more. THIS hickey is a mark of desperation. If a mental image of the hickey ever pops up in your minds eye, remind yourself that it's an indication that she's marking her territory. Every time you "see" that in your memory, just know that OW has basically peed on your WH.
Now that's some pretty funny stuff.
And pretty sad for the skanky OW tramp ho.
He says oh I just banged my self at work, and kinda had a STUPID look on his face, which I played along with. I said Hmmm, doesn't look like it to me and I laughed.
Good job on not taking his lies and doing so w/o any love busters.
So I'm kinda beating around the bush because I wanna know what the h3ll is the deal. Maybe he just is not attracted to me anymore and just isn't into me, is it nerves or what I mean what is it? I'm really kinda fishing right now and he says what are you wondering my intentions? I say well that wasn't what I wanted to ask but your welcome to volunteer that if you'd like , and I drop it and so does he.
IMO this is the ONLY mistake in a very difficult and otherwise superbly successful evening. NO RELATIONSHIP TALK. Not yet. Still, you kept it light and were able to drop it so you did well.
Regarding the erection issues my bet is it's guilt, and stress. The boy is trying to work, spend time with OW, drive back and forth, spend time with you and the kids, and he's not eating well. I bet he's a wreck inside.
You done GOOD! You're serving up delicious cake and he can't get enough. Plan B is going to leave him reeling.
You know what else? OW is obviously being a pain right now. When you go dark, she'll quit trying to "win" him, which means she'll fill even LESS of his ENs. And when your WH mopes and misses you, she'll continue to LB and gripe about you and the kids. Your complete darkness is going to show their love nest for the abomination it is.
You are doing SOOO well.
Ok how many of you want what really happened, and how many just want the tidbits. I have no problem giving you all the juicy details as long as no one freaks out on me. I really don't mind telling ya'll cuz you ALL CRACK ME THE H3LL UP! I mean really who needs TV or books when I can listen to you all.
So let me know, wouldn't mind the feedback, had a few icky's that I think I maneuvered around ok but I am a lil bit down
about it so let me know how transparent you all want me to be and if the general majority say go for it then I will and if the general majority say no thanks then I won't share it all.
So??????
Haven't read all the responses, but you could call SF by a "code"...BobPure used to call "it" "ahem"-ing.
Funniest.
Sh**
Ever.
IMO.
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMGOMGOOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG
You are hilarious, you are a great writer!
She gets it from her DAUGHTER!
She gets it from her DAUGHTER!
That stuff about genetics and inheritance is an AMAZING thing, isn't it? That's not ALL I got from her, either. Wanna see my gray hair? :RollieEyes:
That's not gray hair.
It's your SPARKLES!
(that's what I tell my kids...they are giving me sparkles)
Well, then, try not to be blinded by the glare! :RollieEyes:
So jumping on again real quick, H came over about 12 as he got done early from work, so he'll be here all day until after trick or treating....whoo whoo! NO EXPECTATIONS!
But gonna try to go for the glitter make up on the back of the shirt! Yeahhhh
Keep doing what you are doing, as you seem to have a knack for it. Keep hubby lapping it up so when you suddenly cut him off, it will be a real shock.
Next time if you see a hickey, just say "Well, I've not seen one on those since high school (or junior high), ya know a little bit of toothpaste might just fade that for ya". Make him blush. GF
sparkles
I'm too young to be getting this many sparkles.
He is sure craving the safety and familiarity of home. You have turned it into a haven for him, known because he escapes to you every chance he gets.
I want to know why no-one has asked the question...
how does T2L know how to lap dance????
Is THAT what a lap dance is? :MrEEk:
Shock is what I want!!! I want massive shock for the Plan B. Think I have my PBL narrowed in and my conditions finished up, mediator notified so all ready to go. Told my parents today I wasn't sure If I would be out for Thanksgiving. They know about the plan and If H doesn't come home I want to be in my home if I need to cry because it will be the 1st Thanksgiving without my H since I was 14 years old. I don't want everyone to feel bad for Thanksgiving but said I will be there for Christmas no problem. Man, my 19 year anniversary is a month away too, this sucks! Sure didn't plan to spend it this way. Oh well no use dwelling on it.
So first the juicy, he cheated on OW again! LOL. Can you say 4 times? And guess what, this is the best best best part! No erectile problems! Thank God!!!! I was sure I made really positive admiration's on it too, since that last talk we had yesterday!! LMAO
I just haven't been able to plan out the sparkly eye shadow, but I will believe you me! Going to health food store tomorrow to gets me somes patchouli oil! I told DD17 about it and she laughed so the both of us are gonna wear it so he'll kinda smell it probably on Sunday and then when i swipe a bit of it he won't notice it since he had smelled it all day. I hope when he gets in his car he won't notice it.
So he spent about 11 hours here. He did get about 2 text pages 1 during the day and one about a half hour ago when just him and I were having coffee at the table and talking. I didn't blink an eye, kept on talking. He did more house hold stuff and I asked him if he minded getting out my Christmas stuff(LOL who knows how long he'll be in plan B and now I don't have to get a ladder and grab that stuff out of the rafters of the garage. Momma didn't raise no dummy. I'm gettin it all done before Plan B! We we had dinner together and took DS10 trick or treating.
So tomorrow we may see him for my DS10 football game if he gets done with work in time and I think he said he wants to take us to lunch, but he won't be over for the evening, I'm sure OW is going crazy with all the time he's spending with us. Kinda glad wanna really hang out and relax for the evening not having to worry about Plan A'ing so hard.
After that, we have him for most of Sunday. More to come tomorrow. I'm exhausted. I'm going to bed!
Anyways hope everyone had a safe and Happy Halloween.....
Well unfortunately that is NOT a lap dance LOLOL
But for your entertainment and wondering and inquiring minds here are some definitions
:
LAP DANCE:
1. This is a type of dance where the patron is seated and the stripper dances in close proximity to him, sometimes literally right in his lap. ...
2. A lap dance is a specific type of sex dance offered in some strip clubs
3. A very erotic form of entertainment typically at a gentleman's club, where the naked or nearly-nude individual is dancing essentially on the customer's lap; To perform a lap dance
4. an activity in which a usually semi nude performer sits and gyrates on the lap of a customer
5. an erotic dance by a stripteaser performed mostly in the lap of a customer.
SOOO, do ya'll feel much more informed now? And I can tell ya how I learned to! Don't worry bought a great e-course for almost nothing and it was very professional-at least for what it was LOL. It was great! Whoever wants to know let me know and I'll give you the link!!
Don't worry bought a great e-course for almost nothing and it was very professional-at least for what it was LOL. It was great! Whoever wants to know let me know and I'll give you the link!!
Go on then
Ok ya'll go to :
www.lapdanceunleashed.comThere you have it my lildoggie you bad girl!!! LOL
Well, Flick says I'm very good
Ok everyone,
So just found out more stuff this morning. Yesterday just before dark DS10 friend gets dropped off at the house by his mom. I tell my H she is coming that I am not embarrassed by him being there but if he was uncomfortable he did not have to stay sitting with me on the porch. He decides to stay, he waves and then goes into the garage.
So we take the the 2 boys trick or treating then over to the other boys house. I walked in and I turn around and H had walked in. We visit for a few and then H and I walk home. A few hours later the father drops both of our kids off to do a sleep over at our house. I take the kids in and my H and the boys father stay outside for 5 minutes and chat.
So the wife tells me today that my H had said this is my home I need to be here.
I still have NO EXPECTATIONS by this comment as I do not know what is going on in his head, maybe he thinks he can come home and have her on the side, but either way it's a hopeful comment. What ya'll think?
I think you need to post the lap dance link on the goddess thread, just for reference.
Also, don't have any expectations because of what he said to the neighbor. Remember, NO EXPECTATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And I DO think you should go to Thanksgiving with your family. You can get through without sniveling. Staying dark in Plan B is HARD. Get all the support you can.
Jumping on quickly, H is here again, didn't think he would be here.
H met us at DS10 Football game, took us to dinner afterwords. When we got ready to leave we all went to our cars. DD17 and DS10 kept asking H to come over or stay the night since he'd be back in the morning. He seemed like he was confused, didn't want to let kids down and was making excuses that he needed to get home to finish his reports but DD17 says well do them at our house we have plugs for your computer too. Finally I felt almost bad for him so I say ok kids give dad hugs we need to go. H says well I can come over for a little while, I say are you sure I know your tired. He says well either way I'll be tired, so he came over again.
Back later if there is anything to update.
You think the kids should have pressed him like that? I had nothing to do with it. They get in the car and look at each other and laugh and say we got a plan. Were gonna try to get him to stay mom. Oh boy. I say hey you guys look don't be upset if he doesn't, he has a girlfriend and I do not want you both upset if he has to go.
Finally I felt almost bad for him so I say ok kids give dad hugs we need to go.
Plan A = do not protect the WS from the consequences of their sin
Oh good point I had not thought of it that way. I guess I just didn't want him to think I put the kids up to it. I try to kinda not get their hopes up because I don't want them to be let down.
Good point, don't protect them from reaping the consequences of their actions
You are doing such a fab job that all we have left to do is nitpick, lol!
I mean, he's moved out and you're able to Plan A virtually as well as if he were living at home, cuz except for what little sleep he gets, he basically IS living at home. (He's living at home, and just existing with her.
)
Whether you see an immediate effect or not, Plan B is going to be like an H-bomb to him. Also, congratulations on the um non-problem.
You are doing such a fab job that all we have left to do is nitpick, lol!
:pumkin:
OMG you guys, so kids begged him to stay, he is now sleeping with my DS10 who is on cloud 9. I did however give a nice big hint about sneaking into my room tonight! LOL
Wonder what stupid lie he told OW LOLOLOLOOLOLOLLLLL
The night AFTER I a-hem seducedhimbygettinghimdrunk I went up to him and said "I'm not going to make a big deal about it but you know where my bed is, good night".
He was there about 10 mins later.
Try it
He's dooooooooooommmmmmmed.
It the totally right way.
(le sigh)
You need to change your thread name.
YOU.
are.
not.
the.
crazy.
one.
(giggle)
Whew, OK he's gone. LOL. I never thought I'd say that about my H.
So I'ze gots lots of stuff for you guys. Some stuff good some stuff irritating but WHATEVA!
So re-cap the kids begged him to stay, he came over for a bit then decided to stay. He was so exhausted(which he seems to be all the time)I think the double life and hour drive is hard on him-not that I care since he chose to move in with the
skank!
Anyways, about 6 AM I wake up and go get him to come into my room for a bit of morning SF! Sorry I know it seems like geez, but remember this is a 180 for and I've hardly had any contact with him for over 5 months except at the start of the Plan A on Oct 3rd. So he joins me in my bed.
We actually 1st hold each other and then end holding each other and he says wow is the hugging okay and I say are you joking? He says well our 1st SF you said thanks and kicked me out(LOL) I respond well its just that I am protecting myself and trying not to let myself get emotionally hurt, but I love nothing more than hugging you.
We continue to talk about all kinds of stuff like family, church stuff and even bits of the A which I didn't really bring up. I tell him how Pastor had called me during August and said he was proud of the way I had handled my self and the way I am raising the kids and that he has tremendous respect for me. H respond, I have tremendous respect for you too, you have done well.
We get up get dressed have some coffee and muffins and talk some more. Here's where it gets kinda screwy. so we talk about mutual friends in similar situations and how they went to Match.com and I say that I refuse to do that especially right now and that I don't need a person next to me to feel okay with myself and that it's a form of self medication by dating so quickly. I would never date until I was to a place where I am okay being single(should we be talking about that??)
Then we talk about how women bring strange men around their children and I say I will never bring anyone around my children if i was dating not for several years, (ok I think this is LB) I say in your situation I have no respect for her because she brought you a complete stranger to move in with her 9 year old. We kinda change the subject and then he says well I was listening to a radio program that says you should not divorce because it will cause financial destruction and that even if you don't like each other you should try to avoid it, so I say well good thing I was never in this for the money(hint-I could care less about making this financially easy for you). He says at 1st when this all started it was really about the money but not it is not. (It sounds like all this convo is unpleasant but really it was very calm and understanding).
So I say well I can't do this forever the sharing, its really hard I will do the best I can and when it's too hard I will let you know(PB hints) I say if that does happen I just hope you continue to call and visit the kids. He says well if its too hard now I can not come(he was kinda half snotty, seemed almost like a threat but I'm not sure).
Get this, so he says well I just don't want to hurt anyone anymore(the OW) and I say well the kids and I are hurting. He says I know. I say when its all said and done you are not responsible for her but your wife and kids. He says I know I just don't want to hurt anyone else, but I'm sure you can do something if you wanted to(I have OW cell #). I say do you need a fall guy? He says no I don't no one can tell me what to do(Uggg, arrogant!!!!) Oh yeah he also says well there is more going on and I don't want to go into it. I know I know, I STILL HAVE NO EXPECTATIONS, I promise. I'm just venting.
READY...(tell me if I'm crazy)
well that's why time needs to happen, and I'm at a place in my life where I'm not on anyone's time line(WTF??). I say I understand but I won't be able to do this forever and I am finally in a place in my life where I am starting to care for myself and set boundaries instead of not ever being truthful I am learning to care for myself.
So we chat for a bit and I say ok gotta get ready for church. I go to church and we meet with a mutual friend for lunch then we come home. He hangs out for a while. kids went out to play. I asked for a back rub and he gave me one. I fell asleep on him on the couch for about 20 minutes and was woken up by him making passes at me sleeping. So we run of to my room for more SF. He showers and then watches some TV with the kids and I and then says okay i gotta go "home"
So he leaves and gives me kinda a half hug as I am sure he has to go home the biatch!!!! All in all we had a nice 4 days. Nothing majorly bad, no irritations all conversations though odd still remained very very neutral.
Alright my mentors give me some feed back on all of it if you can.
P.S. I could swear in the book, when the PBL letter was given in the worst case couple that a note was given the the OM saying he was fighting for his marriage. I'll try to go find it. I say this because when I give the PBL to him I really want to notify her of EVERYTHING. I really do. I mean someone posted that infidelity and adultery needs to be treated as a beast that must be slayed so what do you think. I really decided this today after our conversations and how he doesn't want to hurt her, fine I'll do it. LOL
Well again I think you did a stellar job.
(ok I think this is LB) I say in your situation I have no respect for her because she brought you a complete stranger to move in with her 9 year old.
I don't see that as a LB at all. It wasn't an angry outburst, or independent behavior, or a DJ. You simply stated your own code of ethics and that you had no respect for her.
So I say well I can't do this forever the sharing, its really hard I will do the best I can and when it's too hard I will let you know(PB hints) I say if that does happen I just hope you continue to call and visit the kids. He says well if its too hard now I can not come(he was kinda half snotty, seemed almost like a threat but I'm not sure).
I think this was great. I am guessing he got snotty because he's a cake eater in the worst way and cake eaters don't like having their cake threatened. He likes to tell himself he has it all under control and when he begins to realize that you are your own person, that threatens his cake bakery and he doesn't like it AT ALL. None of this is on a conscious level, he just probably feels very threatened at some level and attacks as a result.
I say do you need a fall guy? He says no I don't no one can tell me what to do(Uggg, arrogant!!!!)
Do NOT be the fall guy. If he decides to come home, HE has to own that decision and HE has to deal with the fallout. If you call OW and try to break them up then he will run to her to support her against you, and if he ever does come home then later on he can say "Well I never would have if you hadn't called her, you tricked me, you forced me, you blah blah blah."
Let him own EVERYTHING with regards to coming home. Make him do the work and set the bar high.
READY...(tell me if I'm crazy)
well that's why time needs to happen, and I'm at a place in my life where I'm not on anyone's time line(WTF??). I say I understand but I won't be able to do this forever and I am finally in a place in my life where I am starting to care for myself and set boundaries instead of not ever being truthful I am learning to care for myself.
I *think* he's saying that your "threats" of not being able to do this forever are not going to work, that nobody tells HIM what to do. You say you may not be able to hold out forever and he says he's not on anybody's time line. Again, he's lashing out because at some level he feels like his bakery is being threatened.
He's acting a lot like a two year old. You can't tell me what to do! You're not the boss of me! I'll show YOU!!!
I think that, since he brought up the A stuff, you did well to respond honestly and calmly. He may not like what he heard, but he knows deep down somewhere that if he comes home you guys will be able to discuss things calmly and rationally, and you wont' be throwing cast iron skillets at his noggin.
I wouldn't bring up any relationship stuff with him!! If he brings it up, respond (and you did great). But he's clearly feeling some pressure and if *you* initiate relationship discussions he may feel controlled and manipulated and he may flee.
P.S. I could swear in the book, when the PBL letter was given in the worst case couple that a note was given the the OM saying he was fighting for his marriage. I'll try to go find it. I say this because when I give the PBL to him I really want to notify her of EVERYTHING. I really do. I mean someone posted that infidelity and adultery needs to be treated as a beast that must be slayed so what do you think. I really decided this today after our conversations and how he doesn't want to hurt her, fine I'll do it. LOL
My gut reaction is that you don't even give the OW *any* attention or interest. If she's in the dark, she'll wonder exactly what was going on. Her mind may make up worse than what has happened (i.e. y'all talking about her behind her back and laughing).
When you go dark he's going to become a real pain in the butt to be around, and he won't have anyone to take that out on except OW. She'll get angry and LB big time. We already know she's not meeting his domestic support ENs. The *only* thing she does is make him feel needed (else he wouldn't worry about hurting her, and that she needs him). That won't last long when she starts LBing left and right.
Let them hurt each other. Let them get good and hateful. Let him come home realizing what a great person you are, that you can take the high road, and that he left wondrous you for that slimeball TOAD.
They need to self destruct without your intervention. Don't become the enemy that they can face together (us against the world, puke, puke). Let them focus all of their nastiness on one another.
It may take a little time, but it will happen after you go dark. She just doesn't have what it takes, at all, and he's already indecisive about what he's doing.
I've been reading your thread daily, but rarely post because you are getting such great advice and doing such a great job and sometimes what I say is not the MB way. But I just feel compelled to post to you because I have heard the same words from my H and I have been exactly where you are right now.
We get up get dressed have some coffee and muffins and talk some more. Here's where it gets kinda screwy. so we talk about mutual friends in similar situations and how they went to Match.com and I say that I refuse to do that especially right now and that I don't need a person next to me to feel okay with myself and that it's a form of self medication by dating so quickly. I would never date until I was to a place where I am okay being single(should we be talking about that??)
Personally I would avoid this topic. When my H thought that I would take my time before dating he felt like he could do things in his own time. But as soon as he realized I had decided to no longer wait around he was begging me to come back. I am not saying you should threaten him with another guy (I know that is not MB), just don't reasure him that you will not begin dating.
So I say well I can't do this forever the sharing, its really hard I will do the best I can and when it's too hard I will let you know(PB hints) I say if that does happen I just hope you continue to call and visit the kids. He says well if its too hard now I can not come(he was kinda half snotty, seemed almost like a threat but I'm not sure).
I think this is good, but be careful about dropping too many PB hints or he might think you had this all planned out and it was just a trick to get him back.
Get this, so he says well I just don't want to hurt anyone anymore(the OW) and I say well the kids and I are hurting. He says I know. I say when its all said and done you are not responsible for her but your wife and kids. He says I know I just don't want to hurt anyone else, but I'm sure you can do something if you wanted to(I have OW cell #).
This was exactlly the crap my H said. I think waywards feel guilty for hurting the OW because they know their W is strong and will survive, but the OW is weak and makes them feel needed. I know I wanted to scream everytime my H mentioned "people" would get hurt. It wasn't until about 6 months into recovery that he said he was sorry for hurting "me". So be prepared that he may feel guilty for hurting her for a long time.
I say do you need a fall guy? He says no I don't no one can tell me what to do(Uggg, arrogant!!!!)
You should not be the one to be the fall guy and hurt OW. All that will do is put your WH into protective mode for OW and he has already told you he does not want you to do that.
Hey! T2L:
BTW- Your WH knows nothing about MB?, right?
What do you think would happen if he could read this post from "point A" to here?
I was wondering- Does anyone know how a WS reacts if they find out there is an "army of influence" out there??
Has there been any backlash of people who's WS has found the site and felt "played" by the community?
(Oh boo-frickety-hoo, I know- but can a past post be a LB?)
T2L- if anyone derserves a prize for following MB principles it is you. Before you "get 'er done" with him- and bring him to MB for help reconstructing your marriage (crossed fingers) I'd have this thread removed (or change yer name and hope he does not read past posts)
--just saying
oh-
- oh
Oh yeah he also says well there is more going on and I don't want to go into it.
Is OW possibly pregnant?????
ASK HIM next opportunity.
And don't hint or beat around the bush
"Is OW pregnant?"You need to know ASAP if this is even a possibility.
As far as I know he knows nothing about MB or the book. I have hidden everything in kids closets, under mattresses etc LOL I do not want him to know.
I wasn't sure whether or not to have H post as part of conditions as some have mentioned whether it was a good idea or not.
Well I have asked him about 3 different times and He says the same thing each time, that she is "fixed" tubes tied I guess, but I am going to ask 1 more time.
I wish I could point blank ask what "other stuff going on" is but I doubt he would answer.
You could always make a MB weekend (and follow up work!) a condition of his return home.
Man, I hope she didn't lie to him and tell him her tubes were tied.
When I read what Pep wrote my stomach flipped.
NEWS FLASH
OWs lie
Yeah I instantly felt sick too. HE just texted back, no she is not pregnant.
OW has 3 children(18, 14, 9) already and her last one is older so maybe she did have em tied. God only knows.
Ok I want to run this by you all too. Ok so I am supposed to go into Plan B on the 15th but I was thinking of going 1 extra week(21st) this is why.
My son's team has just made it to play off's which end Dec 2nd. If I add that extra week, I will only have to miss 1 game because of Plan B. More for my son than H. Son has been in therapy due to the massive anxiety and only the last week has started to try to sleep in his bed as few times a week as some of his therapy goals. He has been sleeping with me since this started 6 months ago and he's 10! If I go to Plan B on 21st then I only have to explain to son about 1 game.
Do you all foresee this extra week as a big deal? I know for sure I'm not going longer as I am NOT spending Thanksgiving with him and the big white elephant in the room. Plus he said he was either spending Thanksgiving with us or alone, so I really want plan B in effect for thanksgiving.
Well he says so far he says she is not pregnant. That's the 4th time I've asked in 6 months. DD17 has asked him in the past too. Same answers I get.
OW probably could lie, but I would think by now hopefully she'd be even fatter(sorry abt that, she's twice my size already to start with, that's the confusing part) and he would have to notice the size change in her I'm guessing if she was.
I know of an OW that told the mm she had been fixed.
She's pg right now.
I hate her fricken guts...and no, she's not VD.
Hey! T2L:
BTW- Your WH knows nothing about MB?, right?
What do you think would happen if he could read this post from "point A" to here?
I was wondering- Does anyone know how a WS reacts if they find out there is an "army of influence" out there??
Has there been any backlash of people who's WS has found the site and felt "played" by the community?
(Oh boo-frickety-hoo, I know- but can a past post be a LB?)
T2L- if anyone derserves a prize for following MB principles it is you. Before you "get 'er done" with him- and bring him to MB for help reconstructing your marriage (crossed fingers) I'd have this thread removed (or change yer name and hope he does not read past posts)
--just saying
It is HIGHLY recommended that BS's NOT tell their WS's of the MB forum until they've committed to recovery, for example by establishing NC. For the record (since this isn't always obvious) one of the main reasons is because BS's get advice here on strategies including snooping. A BS should NOT tip their hand!
By the time a WS should be here, they should be ok with the fact that their spouse loved them enough to do whatever it took to fight for their marriage, and that their spouse is working on changing him/herself.
It is tempting for a new BS to try to get their WS here asap. That is NOT recommended, not until the WS is on board with R.
oh-
- oh
Oh yeah he also says well there is more going on and I don't want to go into it.
Is OW possibly pregnant?????
That was my thought too. I hope he's correct, that she isn't. I wonder what he was talking about then.
... we talk about mutual friends in similar situations and how they went to Match.com and I say that I refuse to do that especially right now and that I don't need a person next to me to feel okay with myself and that it's a form of self medication by dating so quickly. I would never date until I was to a place where I am okay being single(should we be talking about that??)
This woulda been a great time to say, "I refuse to do that especially while I AM STILL MARRIED." You could also say even if you were divorced, you are working on some things for yourself, becoming the person you want to be which includes becoming a better wife when the time comes, and you would want to remain single until you'd sorted those things out.
... then he says well I was listening to a radio program that says you should not divorce because it will cause financial destruction and that even if you don't like each other you should try to avoid it, so I say well good thing I was never in this for the money(hint-I could care less about making this financially easy for you).
I dunno, this may have been a good time to say that you wouldn't want to continue in a loveless marriage with someone who isn't committed to the marriage. You want a marriage that meets each other's needs, that you are learning from the mistakes you made before, and you intend for any marriage you are in to be a good one.
So I say well I can't do this forever the sharing, its really hard I will do the best I can and when it's too hard I will let you know(PB hints) I say if that does happen I just hope you continue to call and visit the kids. He says well if its too hard now I can not come(he was kinda half snotty, seemed almost like a threat but I'm not sure).
I say do you need a fall guy? He says no I don't no one can tell me what to do(Uggg, arrogant!!!!) Oh yeah he also says well there is more going on and I don't want to go into it. ... well that's why time needs to happen, and I'm at a place in my life where I'm not on anyone's time line(WTF??).
I took this as him saying the OW can't tell him what to do so he doesn't need you as an excuse to get out, he'll get out if he wants to. It sounds like that isn't entirely true though, there's that "more going on" that we don't know about yet. Sounds to me like she's got *something* to keep him tied to her even if he wants to break free.
You are doing awesome. I love reading your posts. I was grinning the other day reading your update, and H walked in so I had to tell him all about it.
I could speculate all day about what more is going on to keep you H tied to the OW. OW say and do crazy things in their desperation to keep your WH.
In my situation OW made threats of suicide and supposedly had a history of attempting suicide. She also tried to use her kids to guilt my H into staying with her.
So there is just no telling what more is going on. But if it is just OW playing manipulative games eventually your H will see through her games.
But if it is just OW playing manipulative games eventually your H will see through her games.
Exactly. And that's the difference between manipulative games vs. the MB plans: MB isn't about *manipulation*. Sure it's strategies, designed to have an outcome, but at every point ppl are supposed to assume responsibility only for their own actions and not focus on changing the other person.
Which is why it's ok for a repentant WS to know about the MB forum. This isn't to manipulate. This is just the BS being true to herself and fighting for her M and protecting herself and her kids.
OTOH the OW is prolly getting pretty desperate right about now, and willing to do anything she can to manipulate...
H is here again, jumping on quickly. He is scheduled to be far from out polling place so he is dropping of his ballot to me. I said since your here would you like to join us for dinner, he accepted but said he can't stay late.
Update ya'll later.....
Oooooh..... you serving watermelon rinds, right? You should serve wine, lots of wine! So he can't drive home!
OW must be steaming. Did you ever smear make-up on his collar, or patchouli oil? Or watermelon rinds? LOL
"Oooooh..... you serving watermelon rinds, right? You should serve wine, lots of wine! So he can't drive home!"
My, my, my, Jaynie - you are a very bad girl.................
He just left. Didn't serve watermelon rinds, was such a last minute thing LOL, guess I should keep it on hand.
Was a quick visit, he was here only about 4 hours, funny guess that's not so short is it? LOL
Not much a big Plan A night, I did listen attentively as conversation is big for him and he said the meal was really really good, he has high domestic need too.
Yesterday evening sent him another one of the admiration emails thanking him for everything and saying how much we appreciate all he's been sacrificing for us and loving us that way.
I was talking with my friend just kinda of updating him as he still prays for H. He was telling me about a situation where they had extended family and they were struggling with alcoholism and how it seems very similar(Plan A/B). He said that the family member they had needed to make the choice of rehab. It made me wonder is what part of Plan B accomplishes it forcing the WS to make a choice?
I told friend that H did not want to hurt anyone anymore and my friend says well a hard choice has to be made and he does not want to make a choice. Well said. A choice has to be made.
Well I'm leaning on not notifying the OW when I go to plan b. One of you guys had made a good point about it. I want him to choose of his own accord to come home and not resent me because I broke it up.
So I'm not sure the rest of the week when I am seeing H again, I know Saturday he took the day off when i mentioned him taking it off it a few weeks ago.
What can I do to Plan A if I don't see him till Saturday. Maybe some funny email jokes or something...any other ideas?
Ok I want to run this by you all too. Ok so I am supposed to go into Plan B on the 15th but I was thinking of going 1 extra week(21st) this is why.
I'll weigh in, although I may be in the minority. Some of the other folks are more experienced than I am, so if they disagree, go with them.
IMHO if you are doing fine, i.e. not going nuts and not losing your love, then if you want to Plan A another week I think you should. The point of Plan B is to protect yourself, your sanity, and to protect your love. If you're doing ok then more time in Plan A is just that many more love bank deposits, that much more time for him to get hooked on your awesome DS and Admiration.
is what part of Plan B accomplishes it forcing the WS to make a choice?
No. It ~usually~ brings them to the place where choosing to be separated from you hurts worse than tossing over the OP.
Another week? Play it by ear. I think you'll know at the time if you should or shouldn't, and I do like the idea of making it easier on your son. (As long as it isn't at the expense of your nearly perfect Plan A.)
Your PB hints have been perfect touches up to now, but I would recommend not giving any more. Let him relax back again, thinking and hoping that his supply of cake is going to stretch forever after all. That will maximize the impact when the ovens shut off and the last bit of batter gets scraped in the trash.
It's up to you about notifying the OW. I heartily approve of it myself, but the A is doomed anyway. I do think sending them a copy of the PBL can hasten the demise of the A, but wouldn't consider it mandatory, either.
Yeah your right no more PB hints, he could very well think I planned it.
I feel fine for what I am going through. I don't feel emotionally bad, which puzzles me, guess that comes more in Plan B. So I think the 1 extra week will be fine, but If I feel like I am going to lose it for some reason I will implement the Plan B ASAP.
So I am going to Plan B on the 22nd after son's game sometime that day. I will only have to miss 1 playoff game and I can send son with DD17 and I think he will be ok. With all the anxiety he's endured because of the A, I think for him it's the best outcome. He starts to get very worried if I am not around but know I can explain to him missing just 1 game.
Well I can clearly say he is in full cake eating mode, especially with his last retarded comment of time is just going to have to take place and I'm not on anyones time line and I don't want to hurt anyone again blah blah blah-Hilarious!
For as much as he has reached out to me(groping, flirting etc) It makes me wonder if he does it to her too?
Oh Man I have to tell you guys the funniest thing(I don't think I posted it yet, I can't remember since I update so much LOL)
So H is saying goodbye to DD17 and I at the door last night and I ask how long will it take you to get home? He gets ready to answer and DD17 blurts out that's not home and comes unglued and starts laughing out loud. It catches me off guard and I think its hilarious so I start laughing and H hears it and he start kinda giggling. So I try to compose myself and say I mean how long will it take you to get to your r-e-s-i-d-e-n-c-e. It was a darn funny moment.
DD17 always says whats the stupid grin on his face every time he leaves, is it guilt because he knows what he is doing? I say probably.
Ya know on the condition of having him post to MB, I think it would back fire if he saw my posts. How can I get him help, maybe my condition should be phone counseling with Harley's or whoever they have at MB? I'm not super confident in most marriage counselor concerning A, except for the Harleys. Can I have that as a condition?
As of now H say's he may see us on Thursday. Think I'll send him some flirty pics today and maybe some admiration and jokes since can't see him.
WEll I'm off to vote...whoo whoo... I really love casting my vote, it's a great privilege! God Bless the USA!!
:
Ya know on the condition of having him post to MB, I think it would back fire if he saw my posts. How can I get him help, maybe my condition should be phone counseling with Harley's or whoever they have at MB? I'm not super confident in most marriage counselor concerning A, except for the Harleys. Can I have that as a condition?
Absolutely. Or you can set the condition that he attend a MB weekend with you and do all the followup work.
Think I'll send him some flirty pics today and maybe some admiration and jokes since can't see him.
Here's a text message/joke you can send him:
"Just heard we're being invaded by aliens and they're taking away all the beautiful people. I'm gonna miss ya!"
It'll keep him guessing-- is this a compliment or an insult?!?
Ha aha haa LOL I love it I'm gonna send him that joke...
Score a 7-pointer for your DD! That was awesome, and by laughing instead of strangling him, you both got away with a solid hit.
I agree, we are so blessed to be able to vote. As women, especially, since not all that long ago, mild-mannered church ladies were going to jail so that I could walk freely into a bright and happy polling place and get a donut to eat while voting. I've come to appreciate it more as I've gotten older, and not just the donuts, either.
Wow guys, guessed who just called me to shoot the breeze about the election stuff. Yup H! I am still kinda shocked. He usually calls for reasons. It was nice to talk politics again, as we both vote for the same and have the same belief systems in politics.
Wow guys, guessed who just called me to shoot the breeze about the election stuff. Yup H! I am still kinda shocked. He usually calls for reasons. It was nice to talk politics again, as we both vote for the same and have the same belief systems in politics.
He misses the snot out of you.
(passes T2L the communal kleenix)
- Kimmy, The Keeper of the Communal Hanky
Here is a wonderful poem by Emily Dickenson - you can send this as a text
Wild nights - wild nights !
Were I with thee
Wild nights should be our luxury
Futile - the winds - To a heart in port -
Done with the compass -
Done with the chart !
Rowing in Eden -
Ah, the sea !
Might I but moor - tonight - in thee !
I just keep shaking my head. This poor man isn't gonna know what hit him.
I just keep shaking my head. This poor man isn't gonna know what hit him.
and OW is probably not allowed anywhere near WH's cell phone
Yes, when it regularly vibrates during the evening, and he gets this shifty look on his face.
and he gets this shifty look on his face
I know that look!! It's related to the "deer in the headlights" look. :RollieEyes:
Ya know, because I have no expectations(but a lil bit of hope) I don't see what you guys see. I guess since all that talk about, "time just needs to happen and I'm not anyone's time line and I don't want to hurt anyone anymore"{{gag}} I hope he misses me. We also talked many times in the evening watching the election coverage so that was nice. I can't see that he misses he really. Weird sometimes he comes in and hugs kids and hugs me and sometimes when he hugs me he half hugs me like he's not sure what to do or ya know how you hugs someone you don't really wanna hug and then ya kinda pull back and pat type thing? I mean when no one is looking he's groping at me so I guess that's good. He's coming over tomorrow so that's when we'll see him next.
I know that he several time he told DD17 that he was in his car and working on his laptop which I thought was weird that he wasn't in the apartment doing his reports. Wonder why he doesn't go in? I think he talks to the kids outside the apartment from what i can gather. My DD17 said that said something to the effect of I'll be right back as he answered the phone.
I try to send him texts in the evening too, but I am not sure if she works in the day or at night. It seems weird that he can stay as late as he does when he is here. I was thinking maybe she has a night job and he gets home just before her. Who knows. I know he spent the night last Saturday to Sunday and it was a last minute thing because the kids begged him so I wonder what lie he tells her. Maybe she's one of those chicks who doesn't care and that's why he likes her??? I'm sure he told her some dumb excuse that he stayed at his mom's house. I know he's never tell her he's staying at our house.
I really hope OW starts LB'ing in huge proportions.
Anyways, got all my letters and conditions done. I am focusing on doing the best I can to be as happy as possible for Thanksgiving, 19 year anniversary and Christmas/New years. I don't anticipate him being home that soon as He is stubborn. Think I'll have a party.
2 weeks and 3 days left til Plan B. I was thinking I am going to hand it to him in person when he leaves us that night. I am going to look him in the face(is this ok?) and tell him I love him and to read the letter. I don't tell him that anymore since this all started. I think I'm going to put it in a blank card that way he thinks he's getting a card and not a letter.
Such a hard time to implement Plan B but I truly can't spend the holidays with he white elephant in the room, it would draw to much out of my love bank I think. I hate being the one doing this to him during this time of year, but I tell my self that he has no problem doing it to me, so it really helps push me to go forward.
I have all you If I fall apart during Holidays so I'll make it....This will be the 1st Holiday season we are apart since we were 14 years old.....{{sigh}}....I'm going to be ok.
Disneyland is wonderful during the holidays - You & kids - no WH
Big Bear is a great place during the holidays - You and the kids - no what's his name
I don't see what you guys see. I guess since all that talk about, "time just needs to happen and I'm not anyone's time line and I don't want to hurt anyone anymore"{{gag}} I hope he misses me.
That timeline gibberish was talk.
Talk is cheap.
NEVER listen to what they say.
His phoning you to chat about the elections was action.
Actions reveal where they are truly at.
Yes, I ended that last sentence with a preposition.
So sue me.
****Pouf****
Turtle is now Sue.
(blowing off the tip of my fairy wand)
****Pouf****
Turtle is now Sue.
(blowing off the tip of my fairy wand)
****Pouf****
Turtle is now Sue.
(blowing off the tip of my fairy wand)
:MrEEk:
****Pouf****
Turtle is now Sue.
(blowing off the tip of my fairy wand)
:MrEEk:
Oops! I'm sorry?
Did it sting a bit?
(shaking wand that has glittery bits flying everywhere and is smoking slightly)
Dang thing hasn't worked right since my 4 year old put it in the microwave.
Guess who just popped by you guys? The kids ran to the door and screamed mom daddy is here. I guess he had a lil free time between his appointments and came by. He's in the kitchen with the kids.
I say hey you what brought you here. He says well i had a lil free time, so I say well come in can I get you anything.......wow kinda shocking.
back later...
Who wants to lay money of Mr. T2L getting lunchtime "ahemming" in?
Who also wants to lay money on Mr. T2L is thinking that the grass is WAY greener at T2L's casa?
Yeppers.
Gotta love a well executed plan.
Ok so he just left and he shoulda left a half hour ago. He spent at least 45 with me just talking on the bed. He did reach and grab my rear and did hint that he wanted to get some "afternoon delight" LOL but unfortunately I can't-monthly feminine down time-darn!!! But when he did try to grab my rear, I say Oh so ya miss me don't ya and I smile and he says nope I'm just being a guy and doing what guys do. I laugh out loud and I say nope you miss me!
But we layed on my bed and talked and enjoy each others company, hugged, and part of the time I sat on his chest. That's the update for today. He'll be back tomorrow.....
And he shoulda figured out that i'ze gots the greenest grass there is and now he just has weeds and crabgrass LOLOLOLOLOLOL
I forget what they're called, but Cinderella was talking a while back about some catchum gadgets that go...up there...and you can have SF without any mess.
Try and get your hands on one by tomorrow when he drops by again, and tell him you've got another little experiment you want to try out on him.
And oh yeah, he loves your grass.
Soooo... I'm a lurker and am rooting for you x's a million!!!
Just lay a towel down and go for the "ahem"! Extra lubrication, I say! (be safe though!)
<--- back to lurking, but ((((Trying))))
*giggle* @ H (not WH) lovin' da grass!!
Fertilize it baby!
The item is a moon cup, and it was me asking about it
I am going to order one, but I don't know if I'll be giving an update on the effectiveness
I concur with the towel and lube, and just go slowwwww and gentle.
:o) I'm happy to see that I'm not alone!
Seriously. We've had kids, we've "been there, done that" why do we not have to have SF during "that time"??? Our Dh's have already seen all that there is to see, 'specially if we've given
vaginal birth... Yes, I'm NOT discreet! It is what it is! They usually get it!!
Trying, go to working on your man! Girlfriend, he is yours for the picking.... Yes I'm optimistic. Revert back to the ones who have the experience, wisdom, etc... they've not led you wrong, my friend.
<--- hoping for info for hersself... Whilst high-5ing the supah strong-chicks who reside here...
I'm so blessed to be in your company...
Hi T2L,
I've only read the last 10 pages but it sounds so positive for you.
My WH just moved back home over the weekend and I missed a lot of the signals that the MB's tuned in to. He was not having a PA or living with the OW, but she is still in the picture as his friend and colleague.
We have a long way to go!
Good luck - I'll keep checking in on your progress.
K
Advice for recovery please - my WH moved back home
I'm back! I'm loving the feedback!
Hey if your lurking that's totally fine, I'm mean it is a forum. LOL When I read other threads and posts It's like I'm looking into their life like a TV show its hilarious, I mean sometimes the stories are so freaking crazy that I feel the need to run and get popcorn! Sad thing is this crap we are all going through is real LMAO!
So let me get this right, catchum device-check, lube-check, go slow-check anything else OGM LOLOLOL
I guess were gonna hold the watermelon and patchouli oil eh? That reminds me I need to get that darn oil cuz I'm totally gonna plant some of it on him somehow being sure not forget that lovely little brush off of make up! It so hard to plan it cuz he gets in the shower EVERY TIME after SF and his clothes are on the counter in bathroom in front of him. Maybe I can brush my teeth and get the make up on his clothes but Im worried he'll see it while he puts his clothes on.
Ya know as much as he's been going for me I wonder is he doing the same to her or has he dropped off with her and still wondering what the other things going on are. Speaking of have you guys heard of that spy phone thing that can hijack any phone number and you can hear all the calls and get all the texts? Man I would love that! But probably obsess over it LOL, don't worry I'm not getting it too expensive LOL a friend who is going through the same thing found it. Look here:
http://www.sigmaspy.com/index-1.html Pretty interesting though.
Well guys I'm pooped gotta get up and scrub everything and get ready for him to come over tomorrow-I think domestic is #3 for him.
I guess were gonna hold the watermelon and patchouli oil eh?
Holy cow woman, I don't think he needs any more watermelon!!! :MrEEk:
he gets in the shower EVERY TIME after SF and his clothes are on the counter in bathroom in front of him. Maybe I can brush my teeth and get the make up on his clothes but Im worried he'll see it while he puts his clothes on.
Sounds like he's being extra cautious to wash away any "evidence". Can you rub his collar when you guys are hugging goodbye or something?
Well guys I'm pooped gotta get up and scrub everything and get ready for him to come over tomorrow-I think domestic is #3 for him.
And you are a Domestic GODDESS.
Sounds like he's being extra cautious to wash away any "evidence".
Oh, gee, now THAT isn't transparent. OW won't *ever* notice when your WH gets to her place and he smells all freshly showered. Gee, she won't suspect a THING.
I think that's a riot.
Ya know as much as he's been going for me I wonder is he doing the same to her or has he dropped off with her and still wondering what the other things going on are.
Woman, he's eating top ramen, doing his own laundry, and sitting in the CAR to do laptop work.
The only reasons I can think of that he's not already home are:
1. He can be a slob around OW; he doesn't have to impress her and she takes crumbs
2. He's not sure how to get home
3. He feels unworthy of you
4. He has another OW (but I truly don't think he has time for that)
5. He's too damn stubborn to admit he was wrong
6. He knows you won't settle for halfway, and he's too lazy to do the marriage work he knows you'll require
The "catchums" are called "Instead" and they ROCK all the time...it's like not even having AF visit (except when you change them and when AF brings her gatecrashers "Bloaty" and "Bit*hy"). I've only ever found them at CVS Pharmacy...and they have them on the online store.
And Bottle, I'm LMAO at your "green grass" comment.
Perhaps our T2 has a wee bit o'fae in her?
T2, Erin go braugh?
Oh, gee, now THAT isn't transparent. OW won't *ever* notice when your WH gets to her place and he smells all freshly showered. Gee, she won't suspect a THING.
I think that's a riot.
Woman, he's eating top ramen, doing his own laundry, and sitting in the CAR to do laptop work.
The only reasons I can think of that he's not already home are:
1. He can be a slob around OW; he doesn't have to impress her and she takes crumbs
2. He's not sure how to get home
3. He feels unworthy of you
4. He has another OW (but I truly don't think he has time for that)
5. He's too damn stubborn to admit he was wrong
6. He knows you won't settle for halfway, and he's too lazy to do the marriage work he knows you'll require
Well I never thought of her not noticing that he is freshly showered. But sometimes its hours before he leaves. I hope she see's it all, but she's probably blinding her own self in the river of denial! LOL
I like the reasons, yeah maybe. I still wonder what "other stuff" is going on that he mentioned on Sunday. I mean I still think he's with her by the hickie last week, I mean drives ya crazy with wondering.
It's so much nicer and he seems so happy when he's here I just can't figure out what's the prob except for his lame I dont wanna hurt anyone anymore...
I do think he could be lazy and not want to to the work. I think he has this mindset of I can do what I want right now. He's made several comments like the time he said I could call him on his personal cell and I said well I didn't want to cause problems and he says your not going to cause problems I can do what I want, and also his Im not on anyone's time line crap. It's like he reverted in age "i'm gonna do what I want" thing. But yeah all the excuses really could be him, sure hope he can make it past all those.
I can do what I want, and also his Im not on anyone's time line
Put this in your mental pocket. You can reverse babble this back to him later when he tries to break plan B darkness.
I can do what I want, and also his Im not on anyone's time line
Put this in your mental pocket. You can reverse babble this back to him later when he tries to break plan B darkness.
Ohh!
Good catch, Pep.
Write that one down, T2!
Pep,
I thought in Plan B she wouldn't acknowledge any of his contact attempts (if any make it through her barrier of intermediary, blocked email addresses, and blocked phone numbers).
I'm interested in what you're thinking. Can you spell it out? Like give an example?
--
T2L - oh for sure your WH-Hickey-Boy is still with OW, but who knows what's going on in that brain of his? Can't make heads nor tails of his words, only his actions, right?
Dagnabbit. I forgot. We don't care because it's wayward and nonsensical. We are the lighthouse and the thermostat. We are not the ship nor the thermometer.
Okay, I'm better now.
You?
Ok ya'll went to get those catchum called "Instead" from CVS.
Got an apple pie in the oven all the cinnamon and coffee candles lit up, house is clean and ready to do!!
Back for updates later.....
Apple pie and catchum, he doesn't stand a chance!
And when you go to PB, he will be facing a bleak future of Top Ramen every day FOR THE REST OF HIS MISERABLE LIFE!!!! In fact, maybe you should give him your PBL taped to a case of Ramen.
Just kidding! Don't do it!
Shoot, Top Ramen and a year supply of laundry detergent since he hates doing his laundry so much LOLOLOLOL poor lil Cinderfella!!!
LMAO!
Shoot, Top Ramen and a year supply of laundry detergent since he hates doing his laundry so much LOLOLOLOL poor lil Cinderfella!!!
LMAO!
And don't forget a set of jumper cables since he has to sit in his car outside so much to "work".
Ya know what else you guys, this is kinda gross but I wanna know if it's par for the course.
Did your Walkaways neglect taking care of themselves? Like he doesn't shave regularly or to trim his goatee and wait until like a the very end of the day to shower and occasionally waiting til the next morning.
Usually he was very tidy person and now his company car is totally thrashed, full of trash and sunflower seeds and yucky. He has never ever been like that.
What's the deal with that? Is that normal or did any of you experience this?
OMG you guys guess who trimmed his goatee! ITs a miracle! I guess since the kids and I called him grizzly adams he might have gotten the clue. I made sure to notice it right away.
Ok gotta go serve din din, wild rice, stuffed chicken breast with Italian salad and home made balsamic dressing followed by apple pie and vanilla bean ice cream Yeeee Haw!
You're discussing patchouli oil, watermelons, and catch-ums--all at the same time! Don't get 'em mixed up, for crying out loud!:MrEEk: Although, I wonder (idly, you understand!) if patchouli oil would, um,
burn if a little of it were, say, accidentally spilled in the catch-um before it was used. If the smell lingers as long as they say, that might a bit difficult to have a benign explanation for...especially there.
I'm going to go clean house. More my speed.
Oh, I must be so old fashioned. I could have NEVER actually done it during that time of the month, except in the shower. In the shower is easy, because everything goes down the drain, no fuss, no muss.
Usually he was very tidy person and now his company car is totally thrashed, full of trash and sunflower seeds and yucky. He has never ever been like that.
Is it possible he's living out of his car?!?
Did your Walkaways neglect taking care of themselves? Like he doesn't shave regularly or to trim his goatee and wait until like a the very end of the day to shower and occasionally waiting til the next morning.
Mild depression?
Self loathing (or at least disappointment with self) being expressed externally?
Okay, OW might be able to ignore the showers, but it's gonna seem a wee bit suspicious when he goes "home" (puke, puke) freshly shaven. I bet she LBs all over the place.
Is he drinking a lot? That tends to put a halt to showers and hygiene.
Got an apple pie in the oven all the cinnamon and coffee candles lit up, house is clean and ready to do!!
Ok gotta go serve din din, wild rice, stuffed chicken breast with Italian salad and home made balsamic dressing followed by apple pie and vanilla bean ice cream Yeeee Haw!
Okay, I'm putting it out there right now, in print, on the internet: if T2L's WH doesn't come back to her, *I* want to move in with her!!! T2L: I'm not gay but I'll learn to fix stuff. Everyone else: I called it first. I got dibs.
Awwwww, I wanna!!!!!! I wish I had thought of it first.
If turtle changes her mind, pick me! Pick me!!! I can change car oil and install tile!
Well, I don't need to learn to fix stuff, I already can. And I'll mow the lawn too.
I'll uh... uh... build an addition to the house!
No wait, it'd be easier just to cook the meal myself.
Ok guys he's sleeping on couch....., so we had amazing dinner the kids leave to sports til 7:45. I start to clean up dinner and I had thought he was in garage but I turned around and he was on the couch. Now i leave this great Neo soul station on the TV when I'm at home since Im not much of a TV show person, i love music.
So I say why don't you take a lil nap will it bother you If I clean up dinner? He says no but turn off the kitchen light. I look puzzled like how can I clean up and he motions me to snuggle on the couch and listen to music. He falls asleep and I doze off but just had to run to bathroom to change the handy dandy catchum LOL. I can't believe he wanted to snuggle. He really didn't do much of that married although I always got big hugs when he came home from work.
B,
Yes his drinking picked up alot when he committed the A he said he had to to kill the guilt and the more he did the less he felt for me. His drinking has seemed to slow down maybe 2-3 beers if he's here.
And guess what I noticed as soon as he pulled up today?? HE SHAVED AND CLEANED UP HIS GOATEEE OMG!!! And guess what he decided to do before dinner??? HE CLEANED OUT THIS STINKY CAR!!! OMG and 1/2!!!
Well better go back out in case he wakes up, back in a little....
LMAO LMAO LMAO!
ok ya'll can come I'll clear my closet out!!!
You can come to the lovely Ventura county Ca. and we can do a girl day. I'll call it T2L's Mentor Day! Yesssss!
Did I tell you I can make a mean homemade crepe with hazelnut creme and bananas?
And guess what just for coming you get free watermelon, catchums and patchouli oil as parting gifts! What do you think?
What do ya say???
Girl, you are gonna become the "Plan A " Queen, and I am talkin' the "gold standard" Keep on keepin' on. That apple pie has got to be smokin' out the Top Ramen in his book! You do know that eventually we all become " the other woman". Use that to your advantage. As the "official" OW, she is scared crapless to "check" up on him, therefore, when she does, she won't let him know.. The ball's in her court. As soon as she confronts him on ANYTHING, he will be outraged. And then he will find justification to return home.
The biggest fear the OW has is to become the "BS", OW makes any statement that doesn't go along with the fantasy, and WH gets up on his hind legs declaring that he can get that treatment at home, thus he can do what he wants, when he wants.
Make no mistake, she is checking up and trying to keep him in check. She has probably already been making a few inferences.
Don't take any crap, BUT, AVOID LB's, thus working against this Ho. Keep it up, you are making "home" the preferred place to be!! GF
You can come to the lovely Ventura county Ca. and we can do a girl day. I'll call it T2L's Mentor Day! Yesssss!
Did I tell you I can make a mean homemade crepe with hazelnut creme and bananas?
And guess what just for coming you get free watermelon, catchums and patchouli oil as parting gifts! What do you think?
I am SO there.
Ok, so either (a) he cleans up and shaves (as if going out on a date!!!) at the OW's house, and then leaves and is gone all night or at least real late; or (b) he leaves and goes to a gym or something and cleans up and shaves, and is gone all night or at least late, and comes "home" looking like he cleaned up for a date and slept there (coming home all clean shaven except for the shadow, and in rumpled clothes). What must she be thinking???
Do you think he's not still living there??? Or do you think she's pulling some big needy act to keep him "around", could that be his "thing that takes time"?
My money is still on him coming home before PB. If he lasts more than 3 days in PB I'll eat my hat. He's gonna be Jonesing for some watermelon and pumpkin pie!
Weird, really weird, and I don't just mean catchum patchouli oil.
AJ got super-finicky, even more metrosexual than he already was, lol.
Drinking? Maybe. Living out of his car? Not too likely, I don't think, not full-time, but maybe using it as an escape most of his waking hours? Why? Is she THAT bad already? Is her kid horrible? Is the kid acting out a whole bunch extra because his mom's got this strange guy living with them all of a sudden?
Ok, the last one's a no-brainer, but the other ones could sure use some explanation. Which we probably won't get till R. Bummer.
Cheers to T2L, queen of the new All Girl Flop House.
If he lasts more than 3 days in PB I'll eat my hat.
I think this is pretty close to the winning slot in the office PB pool.
K he's gone. He left about 8:30. Forgot to tell you guys that when he pulled up today, I walked out to greet him and he was still sitting in his car so I kinda lean against the drivers door and he grabbed my rear like with his whole hand and I laugh and I say you realize your grabbing my rear and we are standing in broad daylight in the front yard right, and he says yup.
He woke up from his nap and I gave him apple pie with vanilla ice cream and some coffee.
No SF as he fell asleep and i felt so bad for him since he was so tired so I decided to let him rest which I think he appreciated. He said you could have woken me up and I said yeah but you were so tired I felt bad so i guess you'll owe me on Saturday so make sure your up to it!!!
The kids and i teased him only a few days ago about his facial hair I think it was Monday night or possibly Wednesday afternoon, and we joked about it. I was so shocked that he trimmed it and cleaned the car. Sooo weird! I mean I am assuming he shaved at the apartment so I dont think she'd think anything of it. I just keep wondering if OW has a night job and maybe he gets right before she gets there. He told me that originally it was him, OW and her 18 year old son living there. But I think the 18 year old may be gone but the 9 year old is there full time. I wish the nasty 14 year old would come back home. OW shipped her off about 6 months ago as she was in trouble with police so much she didn't know what to do.
We confirm our plans for a day trip after son's football game and I say are we going to get to see you Sunday he says no I'm going to sit and do nothing all day. He says well I'll see you guys all day Saturday. Then I respond well why don't you spend the night Saturday again. He say No I can't. I say well you can do nothing here all day too and I can see that he's not really able to give me an answer so I smile and say ok then....Awe I tried LOL
My DD17 said when she was in dads car the other day that he has a suitcase in the back. I really don't think much of it since I was the one who boxed up his crap into 4 large boxes and threw them out into the drive way after he left LOL. I mean its not a huge suit case. I think he uses it as a laundry basket. I know that I have all the furniture so who knows where or what his clothes are being stored in. I think he never opened the boxes and has only used the clothing he took when he left. 15 days left. I personally don't think he'll come back before PB. He has a very sweet side, but mostly he is stubborn. Either way I am mentally ready to handle business on the 22nd.
Can I ask you guys, were you sad on PB day? I am focusing already on having as much joy through the Holidays as possible. It helps to kinda see yourself that way. But I'm guessing once I hand him the letter and he leaves I'll naturally be sad right?
You have asked a couple of questions I would like to answer, but I can only give you my POV, it might not be the same for you.
Regarding the personal hygiene of a WH, while the A was in full swing, Flick was obsessivly clean, perfume, nice clothes, the lot. Once he came home tho (the false recovery) he totally deteriorated. Only showered 3 times in a week, didnt change, certainly no perfume. When he came back this time, hygiene standards have resumed to normal.
Regarding Plan B. I felt good for the first 3-4 days. I felt strong. Then I went down hill so that I turned into a moping mess. I was only just starting to pull out of that and improve when he came home. So if your PB lasts longer than 16 days (and I'll be surprised if it does) then maybe it will be different for you.
NO EXPECTAIONS!
You don't know how you will react to plan B-- Don't even try to guess how he will react. It may take moments or months- or a millenium before he decides on what he wants to do. >sp?
I think you are on a good track. Keep working on your own happiness- it will do your children well to see you being strong.
Yup NO EXPECTATIONS! Just a few pre-PB jitters, holidays and all.
Won't see H today unless he pops over unplanned but I doubt it, he says he's not in the area. But tomorrow we have him most of the day. I think we're gonna go to Santa Barbara for the day, not sure yet.
Think I'll start getting a list of things to stay busy, I think I'll start 1st by painting my bedroom and doing some re-decorating.......
So i just get done talking to H. We are trying to nail down what we wanna do for tomorrow and we talk about other stuff too.
We talk about vacations and cruises. We as a family have been on 2(7 day eastern and western Caribbean) and I say I really wanna hit the southern Caribbean next.
I say with some of the tax money I'd like to take the kids on a trip especially since summer was a nightmare for us(he was nuts for the 1st 5 months).
He says well I wanna go on vacation too I haven't had one in a long while.
I say well you probably can't really go with us we'd be gone for a week, how are you going to explain that? That won't be very good for you.
Guess what he says again?? (wagers anyone??
LOL) He says well it'll be fine, i can do what I want.
I say well won't that be a problem and he says no I can do what I want and I don't care.
It almost sounds as if OW has tried to stop him. Maybe not be he sure is adamant about I do what I want blah blah blah. I bet he thinks he can do that with me too.
The part that is slightly irritating is that this is tax time were talking about March-ish right? He could have said oh things might change by then but NOOOOO this bozo thinks were gonna be like "this" til then.
What a HOOOT!
Sorry Charlie, I have a big present for you its called
PB LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
You certainly are reeling him in. I think I WOULD talk about vacation. Get a couple of pamphlets of cruises. It would be fun to dream about them with him.
And I would reinforce he can do whatever he wants. Sounds almost like a midlife crisis.
Of COURSE he thinks things are still going to be like this in March, thilly!
He is going to have 2 women vying over his body, marking him, and making pies for him FOREVER!!!
(evil laughter)
Yeah I think he is a little MLC too. So re-enforce he can do what he wants, he that's pretty smart actually then he doesn't feel threatened right??
I wasn't sure if I should be talking about vacation. Really I did it as a pre-hint thing as I have no clue how long or if I will ever come out of Plan B so I thought I could kinda set it upa little. I just sent him the actual itinerary of the one I have been eye balling.
I was talking over dinner the other night about what I should stuff the turkey with and my DD17 panicked and changed the subject. She said mom don't talk about Thanksgiving if you know that dad probably isn't going to be here and he'll probably be alone. So I thought maybe I was wrong and shouldn't talk about that stuff.
Do you guys think it'll be weird to H that were swimming along honky dory and then wham I give him the PBL? Do you think that he'll think I planned this evil plot? Like what happened we were getting along type thing and I trapped him. Either way its a done deal but just crossed my mind, what do you guys think?
I am going to give it to him on the evening of the 22nd whenever he goes home. I wanted to give him a big hug and tell him I love him and that I have a card for him. I am going to put the letter inside a blank card so it doesn't look so letter-ish if that makes sense. I think he'll read it if he thinks its a nice card for him.
So what do you think bout all dat stuff LOL?
By the way did my admiration for the day. Sent him a text thanking him for the snuggling yesterday. I say thanks for the invitation to snuggle yesterday, in 24 years you've never done that just wanted you to know how sweet it was and I enjoyed it....He responds well there's a 1st time for everything and I'm glad you enjoyed it.....funny guy!
Do you guys think it'll be weird to H that were swimming along honky dory and then wham I give him the PBL? Do you think that he'll think I planned this evil plot? Like what happened we were getting along type thing and I trapped him.
You're not "trapping" him. He can do whatever he wants, right???
You are only stating what *you* intend to do, what *you* can tolerate. That's all. That's the ultra sheer beauty of the plans.
He can do what
ever he wants. But *you* have to do what *you* have to do. You've warned him enough that you can't do this forever. Your PBL probably says something like you'd love to work things out, but that you can't tolerate sharing him any more, so the you have to do this and he can do whatever he wants.
He wants his freedom? You're giving it to him. That's all.
I really think the OW is LBing him all *over*. He really sounds like a WH talking about his BW to his OW when he says to you that she can't tell him what to do. Interesting.
Well, I think it is good to talk about hopes and dreams. And the Harley's always suggest saying to the WH "What if you could fall in love with the mother of your children again? Would you prefer that?"
In any marriage, we forget about our hopes and dreams, and get bogged down in the everyday drudgery. It is good to look toward the future.
As far as getting his hopes up, he can end the affair anytime he wants to. We always suggest at least 6 weeks of Plan A so that the WS doesn't think it is just a ploy to get them back.
Since hubby is on his I can do whatever I want kick, I would agree with him. In fact, I would add that to your Plan B letter. Hope you are getting it ready. It does need to be short and sweet. But you can tell him that you love him and thought you would grow old together, blah, blah, blah, but you are not his jailer, and he is free to do his own thing, but it is just to hard for you to have him to home to the OW, and so to protect your love for him, blah, blah, blah..........
I think it is fine to discuss Thanksgiving dinner. Remember, he could be with you and his family on Thanksgiving. If he choses not to lose the OW, his loss - he can enjoy Top Ramen with her.
I do have my letter ready but I will add that jailer thing in there since it seems like an issue to him.
Me man hear he roar "I want more ramen!" LMAO!!!!!
Tomorrow is exactly 2 weeks to PB. I'm gonna try and see if he'll go on a dinner date with just me before the PB. I don't know if he'll do it but I think I'll ask. I know he'll come for visits with the kids but not sure if he will if its just me.
And the Harley's always suggest saying to the WH "What if you could fall in love with the mother of your children again? Would you prefer that?"
So would I ask him that in the PBL or casually in conversation when we are together?
At a point when he puts out feelers again, you would slip it into the conversation.
Sneaking on again...Its 9:20PM and he fell asleep on the couch...I hope he stays but not holding my breath. So H was on his way over and he sends me a text that says its a freaking gorgeous day.
I responds well good morning! Yes it is a gorgeous day, that's what I love about you. You can enjoy the beautiful day just like me, I'm off to the shower to get ready to bad your not here to take one with me.
H met us at DS10 football game. Afterwords all of us went to lunch, then since the weather today was absolutely perfect we went to the Ronald Regan Library since it's just a few minutes away and spent an hour there.
We came home and H went out behind the house with DS10 to throw the football together. A bit later DD17 and DS10 went to see a movie and OF COURSE he cheated on the OW again
I did however say so ya wanna go to my bedroom??
He didn't resist or anything he went straight to my room and undressed.
(Ok this time we had one of those{{ahem}} issues with ED. The last couple times before were fine. The first 2 times he cheated on OW he was kinda limp but the last few times he was fine so I thought we were done with this. I mean this was never never never a problem before all this and I asked him like 3 weeks ago remember, and he said your a beautiful woman you have nothing to worry about I wouldn't have sex with you if your weren't-unless he was lying to me. But I dropped it after that.
It's like I wonder am I totally not attractive to this guy any more that he can't get it up? Like maybe he's more into OW? I am trying not to let this effect my self esteem-I mean I worked with what I had tonight LOL so that's great, but why why why isn't he {{sorry TMI}} getting hard??? In 24 years this has never been a problem. Can stress do that? Or maybe the living a double life?? Or maybe he just doesn't find me attractive in that way anymore. Could he just do this as a pity screw?? I mean feeling sorry for me and that's the only reason? I mean I take really good care of myself, exercise and eat right, hair and makeup, dress well....Ok sorry just wondering....If any of ya'll got experience or thoughts on this feel free to let me know. As of now unless he stays the night we won't see him tomorrow...I think hes up be back later.....
Guilt, double life, trying to satisfy two women, at least one of them voracious, more stress, and lots of Top Ramen, can put a little limp in any noodle.
THE PROBLEM IS NOT YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't worry until a while into reovery if the problem persists. Keep on with the good fight, and make the best of what he gives you, just like you did tonight.
Did I mention it's not you?
Ok jumping on quick cuz gotta go to church and I'm late. Wanna know why I'm late this morning?
Well H stayed the night after all. Son & I asked him to stay last night because it was already 12:30 AM. He woke from his nap and hung out with us. He said no at first as he had stuff to do, I said why don't you just leave in the morning. He didn't really answer so I didnt wanna love bust so I smiled and said ok I'll make you coffee. And then H says well I'm gonna tuck DS10 in and then I head off to my room and he comes in 10 minutes later and says hes just gonna stay!!!
SO he hangs with son for 10 minutes then comes in and asks if he can watch TV in here while I finish preparing for church stuff in the morning. I say sure. Then I get ready for bed and he says Is it ok if I sleep in here(IDK guys is it??) So I say sure cuz I really was caught off guard.
So he grabs me we snuggle and fall off to sleep. At 7AM guess who is right behind me?? I feel a lil nudge and say hmmmm what's that? He says a morning surprise, I say oh really and thus he cheats on OW again! Anyways he just took son to breakfast and I said goodbye as I won't see him when I get back.
Was it ok for him to sleep in my bed? Did I handle that ok? Ok I'm off back after church.
Muah to all yous guys who I really in all honesty can't imagine living with out! Your help is invaluable!
And yes I still have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Of course it is okay for him to sleep in the same bed with his wife.
One has to wonder what is up with him spending so much time with you. He must be lying like H to the OW. Or maybe he is trying to get her angry so she will dump HIM. Who knows?
If she happens to contact you, I wouldn't talk to her. She will only turn things you say around.
By all means let him sleep with you!
This is going to be some backstory when you get it - it's hard to imagine what must be going on at the other end for this to be happening, so don't bother to try and figure it out. I mean, him being with you that much with no discernible repercussions is Twilight Zone kind of weird.
Wait till he's home, and he'll tell you all about it himself.
falling asleep and waking up next to each other is one of the more intimate acts - much more intimate than *ahem-ing* and then *buh-bye* (leaving)
Oh good, I was worried. I asked him to stay earlier in the evening and he said he had some stuff to take care of.
So I expected he was going to leave and but then he feel asleep and woke up about 9:30PM. At this point really thought he was going to leave so I kept waiting well 12:30 rolls around and he's still here but he says can you make me some coffee, which is kinda what I do when he heads out so he can stay awake for the drive. So I say are you sure you wanna leave this late you look pretty tired. HE says again, I have some stuff to take care of, so I respond well why don't you just stay and leave in the morning. He can see that my DS10 is listening and sad by him having to leave. Then H says I'm going to tuck DS10 in so I make his coffee set it by the door and go to my room to get ready for bed and stuff. HE comes in 10 minutes later and says I'm gonna stay. I respond are you sure, I know I asked you a few times and I don't want you to feel pressured into having to stay he says no I want to so I drop it. I sure do wonder too what on earth he is saying to her, I am assuming lies. His mother lives an hour away too just in another direction so I'm thinking he is saying he is visiting his mom. Who knows can some one turn me into a fly so I can sit on the wall and listen to them?? LOL
I left for church this morning and DS10 and him went to breakfast as DD17 didn't want to get up to go. H and DS10 come back and I guess he did a few chores and then says to DD17 ok I have to go I have some stuff to take care of(again)
. Kinda weird why doesn't he just say I have a lot to do?
I am now 13 days left until PB. I am ready, wishing I didn't have to but know that it must be done and that this is not a life that I would want long term. It is hard tho having a part of your old H back in your life, not totally him, but a part of him and having to go dark. I am hoping the holidays and our 19 year anniversary knock him on his head hard, one can always hope right? Overall I feel I gave it my all and put in as much as I could in meeting his needs during my Plan A and either way feel like no matter what happens I did my best and made some positive 180's for myself.
I did send him a text(admiration) in the late morning thanking him for a great day yesterday and for the snuggling and morning surprise and wishing him a great day. He says you too, see ya.
As of now we will see him either tomorrow or Tuesday. Kinda glad he's not here today I need some darn rest! LOLOL
I did mention the dinner date with him, he seemed like he was considering it so I'm gonna confirm it today hopefully.
I'm going to take a nap all this Plan A'ing has me exhausted!
Back in a while.....Thanks you guys for the feedback!
Ahhh nice nap....kinda weird though. I feel sad and I can't figure out why. I oddly feel like I want to cry
but not letting myself since the kids are around.
I mean the weekend went well, he stayed the night last night was here in the morn(you can read my last few posts) so why am I feeling like this? WE had a really nice time Saturday. It bothers me. I haven't felt sad like this in a while, at least not since I implemented Plan A which was better than the 5 prior months of just surviving I was doing before I found SAA.
I took a nap and woke up feeling sad, don't get it.
Maybe it was because I let him sleep in my bed, maybe it triggered something subconscious?
Trying to stay busy and organize and clean to fight it off, but boy may need to just go take a bath and let it out. Don't feel angry just wanna cry. Ok I vented....thanks guys....I'll get it together...
you are in a sad stressful situation - gee, I wonder why you are feeling sad ???????????????
I sure do wonder too what on earth he is saying to her, I am assuming lies
In this case turnabout IS fair play.
She did not think about you and your family.
You will not concern yourself for her and hers right now. I know it's hard for a GOOD person to do this.
But you cannot help her feel better. This is her bitter pill.
She is beneath you.
She's dirty, cracked up lineolium - you don't notice it till some sticks to your shoe and you must scrape it off.
Hope you're feeling better today. You're going to come out of this all right.
Plan A can be very stressful. It is difficult to keep up a good one with no LB's. Hopefully you will do some self care today and enjoy a little break.
Thank guys feeling better. He even called to chat for a bit last night after I posted. Just light conversation.
Have neglected a little self care since I have been focusing so hard on my Plan A. Think I'll go take a salsa class tomorrow, always have a lot of fun. Yesterday was 1 month til my 19 year anniversary, maybe that's why I got down. Anyways feeling better today, gonna go do more organizing, it oddly seems to help me-sick i know! LOL
12 days left in Plan A, almost there. You can bet I'll be on that day.
Thanks for being there for me ya'll love ya like a sis!
Anyways feeling better today, gonna go do more organizing, it oddly seems to help me-sick i know! LOL
Not at all - it allows you to put order and control into at least one aspect of your life. I'm right there with you. I put order where I can. To me order is not rigid or confining but peaceful, predictable, reliable, and serene. To a point, of course.
I know you want to Plan A until your DS's next-to-last game but PLEASE don't Plan A too long. When your love starts going, it goes fast. You want to Plan B right as you begin to feel your love slipping. Don't "be strong" and don't play the martyr. Be ready to protect yourself when the time comes.
I know you want to Plan A until your DS's next-to-last game but PLEASE don't Plan A too long. When your love starts going, it goes fast. You want to Plan B right as you begin to feel your love slipping. Don't "be strong" and don't play the martyr. Be ready to protect yourself when the time comes.
Yes.
I've been the one saying it's ok if you stay in Plan A for longer than you originally planned, as long as you are still feeling good about it. OTOH I absolutely agree that you should NOT stay in Plan A past the time you start to lose your love or your sanity. At least no longer than it takes to have that last good interaction. Who knows, maybe the next time he comes over you'll want to have the PBL handy just in case you decide you can't take it anymore... then make sure to not LB just that one last time, and as he leaves, hand him the PBL.
Somewhere on another thread is a quote regarding why and when to go to PB.
You've done an absolutely PERFECT Plan A. Any one of your visits will be ok as the last Plan A interaction if you need to go to Plan B.
I will watch myself for it. I don't feel like I'm losing love, at least in massive amounts. I feel very focused and ready. I think I didn't do much self care and I think that's why I felt that way.
But I will watch myself though and keep aware as I don't want my love bank to break either.
Self care is vital. Keep it up.
I'm a neak freak, and spent lots of time organizing my home. It really helped me feel in control of something.
I think you will be fine until you go to Plan B, because your hubby is really coming around.
LOL, a neak freak and a neat freak. It makes me feel good to have everything just perfect.
And for all of you ladies with husbands and kids, remember, I don't have any around. So it is much easier these days.
Yeah I feel ok for what I am going through. I mean the Plan A has helped me so much as weird as it sounds. I was just surviving before.
Last night I organize bottom half of closet. Today kids and I organized the garage and tidied the back yard. Gonna work on top half of closet and probably getting rid of the rest of the clothes I no longer fit in and never will return to either LOL. That way when I go to Plan B my room is organized and I can start painting it. I'm looking forward to that painting project.
I only have 12 days left I think that's pretty manageable.
Tried to get H to visit today instead of tomorrow since I have the salsa class I want to go to but he may not be able to so I've decided I'm going to go even if he visits tomorrow. I told him I'd rather have him today so I wouldn't miss his visit tomorrow but I need to go to something fun so I'm going even if he comes. I'll just sweetly excuse myself.
We'll see he said he'd let us know if he's out here today.
I'm off gots more cleaning to do!
WH's don't seem to like it when the BS's go off to have fun by themselves. They seem worried we might cheat... :RollieEyes:
Lol at believer!
Should I still go to my salsa lesson tomorrow if he comes and visits kids or should I stay and visit?
Should I still go to my salsa lesson tomorrow if he comes and visits kids or should I stay and visit?
Are you any good? You could always ask him to practice with you or come to watch.
I vote for SALSA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Funny thing is he doesn't have a whole lot of rhythm. WE took a beginners class about 3 years ago and I never got any good since he wasn't good. Salsa is a male lead dance so if the lead isn't any good or strong at it you can't do very well. If was a lot of fun though.
I started Salsa a month after discovery day to try and have fun and continue living.
But yeah I learned so fast that when the teachers helper wasn't there He used me to demonstrate a few times.
I did invite him to come along about a few weeks ago or to come watch me but he said I'm too big and salsa is for fags. He's not fat he's pretty muscular naturally. I said well you should come see cuz it's not for fags and I laugh.
So I should still go? I mean I only have 12 days left and if I should put it off I can for an extra week, and it wouldn't be a big deal. I will still have dinner prepared either way.
Salsa. It's good for him to see that you have a life. That you are an interesting fun person. In fact, that is even part of some folks's Plan A.
Salsa. Why does that make me hungry???
Salsa it is then! Yipee! I am really looking forward to it!
No visit with him today so tomorrow he will be here.
Still organizing, feels good. Been doing it all day. Gonn take a quick break and do some grocery shopping and then come back an do a little more.
BTW it's ok to dress up for your salsa... wear your sexiest dress, make-up, perfume... let him wonder...
I vote for salsa, too.
Spending time with him is important during Plan A, but so is letting him know once in a while that you have your own thing going on, too. You're not just sitting by the phone 24/7 when he's gone, waiting for him to call.
I also agree with looking and smelling smokin hot. Leave him wishing he'd taken your invite to watch.
Hey guys this is a silly kinda weird question by does anyone know how Dr. Harley came up with the Plans A/B? I mean there are so many other specialist out there.
I ready Divorce Remedy by Michelle-Weiner Davis and Love must be tough by Dr. James Dobson, but funny this was the one I really feel God led me to. I implemented a few things from each of the other books, but really feel this one specializes so well infidelity.
Just wondering how he came up with the Plans, I know weird question maybe there is no answer.
My Pastor knows what I am doing and I told him of my Plan B date and how I was kinda dreading it and my Pastor says,"T2L, I believe this is a tested and tried out plan not just something thrown out there. Unless God directs you otherwise follow the plan, H needs to make a choice and by him saying he doesn't want to hurt anyone anymore he is avoiding having to make a choice. Sorry but a choice has to be made."
My Pastor is right on too!
Anyways anyone know how he came up with it? Was it a trial and error thing or was it from having to deal with the drug addicts?
Definitely Salsa! Let him know you have a life. Then when you go to Plan B not only will he be missing you and all your watermelon rinds, he'll be worrying about what hot studs are in your class.
I *think* I read in one of Dr. Harley's books that when he realized what a dearth of effective marriage counselors there were, he began interviewing successfully married couples in an attempt to find out what makes good marriages good. That's how he came up with the Love Bank and the idea of ENs and LBs. I'm not sure about Plans A and B though.
Then when you go to Plan B not only will he be missing you and all your watermelon rinds, he'll be worrying about what hot studs are in your class.
Gotta love those watermelon rinds!
BTW way back when, when my now-ex WH was leaving me, I read the Tough Love book. I ended up divorced. Which actually turned out to be a good thing, so I guess the book worked for me. Not sure I'd recommend it though if you want to save your M. I'd stick with the MB Plan A and Plan B.
Here is what he says on this site:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
When I was 19, a married acquaintance in college told me his marriage was in trouble and asked for my advice. The advice I gave did not help. His marriage ended in divorce. Why couldn't I help? What was it about my friend's marriage that made divorce seem so inevitable?
It was 1960, and I was about to witness something that few expected - the beginning of what may turn out to be the end of the traditional nuclear family in America. The evidence for such a disaster accumulated over the next 20 years. The divorce rate would climb from about 15% to over 50%, and the percentage of single adults would go from 6.5% to 20%. While the rate of divorce finally stabilized at about 50% in 1980, the percentage of single adults would continue to climb right up to the present (currently about 30% and climbing), because fewer and fewer would be willing to commit themselves to one partner for life.
At the time, I had no way of knowing that my friend's marital failure was part of a trend that was about to overwhelm nuclear families. I thought that his failure was, at least in part, due to my inexperience. I blamed myself. I felt that I should have left it to an "expert."
But over the next few years, couples continued to ask for my advice regarding marriage, especially after I earned a Ph.D. degree in Psychology. After all, psychologists were supposed to know something about marriage. So I decided to learn enough to help these people. I didn't think it would be much of a challenge. After all, if our scientists knew enough to send people to the moon, surely they would know how to save marriages.
I read books on marital therapy, was supervised by "experts" in the field, and worked in a clinic that specialized in marital therapy, claiming to be the best in Minnesota. But I was still unable to save marriages. Almost everyone who came to me for help ended up like my college friend - divorced.
In my effort to overcome failure, I made a crucial discovery: I wasn't the only one failing to help couples. Almost everyone else working with me in the clinic was failing as well! My supervisor was failing, the director of the clinic was failing, and so were the other marriage counselors that worked with me. And then I made the most astonishing discovery of all: Most of the marital experts in America were also failing. It was very difficult to find anyone willing to admit their failure, but when I had access to actual cases, I couldn't find any therapist who could prove their own success or train others to be successful in saving marriages.
In fact, I learned that marital therapy had the lowest success rate of any form of therapy - in one study, I read that less than 25% of those surveyed felt that marriage counseling had helped. A higher percentage felt that counseling had done more harm than good.
What a challenge! Marriages were breaking up at an unprecedented rate, and no one knew how to stop it! So I made it my own personal ambition to find the answer, and I looked for that answer not in books and scholarly articles, but rather among those who came to me for answers - couples about to divorce. I stopped counseling and started listening to spouses explain why they were ready to throw in the towel. What did they have when they decided to marry that they lost somewhere along the way? I asked each couple what they thought it would it take to be happily married again.
I knew that I had not yet learned how to save marriages. So I would explain that inability to the couples I counseled, and because of it, didn't charge them for my time. I taught psychology to earn a living, and worked with couples in my free time.
By 1975, I had finally discovered why I and so many other marital therapists were having trouble saving marriages -- we did not understand what made a marriage work. We were all so preoccupied with what caused them to fail, that we overlooked what helped them succeed. Many marriage counselors, myself included, thought that a lack of communication was causing these marriages to fail. So my goal had been to teach these couples how to communicate, to stop fighting, and to resolve conflicts.
But when I asked couples why they had married in the first place, it wasn't because of great communication. It was because they were in love. And over the years, they had somehow lost their love for each other. In fact, some had even come to hate each other.
When I asked couples what it would take for them to be happily married again, most couldn't imagine that ever happening. But I persisted, and as the couples reflected on it, they came to the realization that they would need to be in love again.
The poor communication that was apparent in many of these failed marriages had contributed to their loss of love, but it was also a symptom of their lost love. Couples who fall out of love tend to fight instead of resolve their conflicts the right way -- with care and respect. So if I wanted to save marriage, I would have to go beyond improving communication -- I would have to learn how to restore love.
With this insight I began to attack emotional issues rather than rational issues. My primary goal in marital therapy changed from resolving conflicts to restoring love. If I knew how to restore love, I reasoned, then conflicts might not be as much of an issue.
My background as a psychologist taught me that learned associations trigger most of our emotional reactions. Whenever something is presented repeatedly with a physically induced emotion, it tends to trigger that emotion all by itself. For example, if you flash the color blue along with an electric shock, and the color red with a soothing back rub, eventually the color blue will tend to upset you and the color red will tend to relax you.
Applying the same principle to the feeling of love, I theorized that love might be nothing more than a learned association. If someone were to be present often enough when I was feeling particularly good, the person's presence in general might be enough to trigger that good feeling - something we have come to know as the feeling of love.
I could not have been more correct in my analysis. By encouraging each spouse to try to do whatever it took to make each other happy, and avoid doing what made each other unhappy, that feeling of love would be restored. The first couple I counseled with this new approach fell in love and their marriage was saved.
From that point on, every time I saw a couple, I simply asked them what the other could do that would make them the happiest, and whatever it was, that was their first assignment. Of course, not every couple really knew what would make them happy, and not every spouse was willing to try it. But as I perfected my method, I began to understand what it was that husbands and wives needed from each other to trigger the feeling of love. And I would help them identify what each of them needed. I also became more effective in motivating them to meet whatever need was identified, even when they didn't feel like doing it at first. Before long, I was helping almost every couple fall in love again and avoid divorce. My method proved to be so successful, that I quit teaching psychology, and started counseling full-time.
As you can imagine, there were more couples wanting help from me than I could possibly counsel. Ten years after I began using this method, I finally wrote my first book describing it, His Needs, Her Needs. Over three million copies have been sold so far, and it has been translated into twenty-two languages. Surveys have found it to be one of the best self-help book ever written.
To help you fully understand this unique and groundbreaking method I developed to save marriages, I will describe it to you in a series of basic concepts. By the time you finish reading these concepts, you will be in a position to re-create love in your marriage. And if you do, you will have turned a potential disaster into a personal triumph!
The first, and most important concept that I created helped couples understand the rise and fall of romantic love. I call it the Love Bank.
And the best part of the program is that with all of the counseling they do, they have made some changes over the years. They used to advise 6 months of Plan A for women, but have shortened it by seeing the damage it can do to some BS's.
And what I really like is that if a person cannot afford the counseling, the program is all here, and it is FREE. I checked out many sites where they tell you a little, and then you have to pay.
By the way, I always suggest that if there is anyway possible, that folks scrape together the money for even one counseling session. I didn't, and instead it cost me over $100,000.
So I should still go? I mean I only have 12 days left and if I should put it off I can for an extra week, and it wouldn't be a big deal. I will still have dinner prepared either way.
I think you should go to Salsa class. He needs to see that you have your own interests too.
I forget what your final Plan B letter ended up being, but make sure you emphasize that you want to preserve the love you have for him and that is why you have to go into Plan B.
I also wonder if you should start making hints about him having to make a decision between you and OW at some point.
If he is alluding to still sitting on the fence in May of next year, then you might say "You think we will still be like that then?" and then just listen to what he says, but don't reply.
Danger! Danger! Danger! Will Rodgers!!!
Do not, I mean Do not this close to plan B- start talking about forcing him to choose in the future! Let OW do the LB's. You want your plan B to SMACK HIM IN THE FACE -- SCHOCK AND AWE!
I'm afraid if you start alluding to future problems, he will see the plan B as just a set up. Keep being your sweet apple pie self- and let the plan B letter do the talkin'for you. He will drive himself NUTZ trying to think back and find out "What went wrong with my cake eatin' lifestyle?".
Give the turd no mental ammo.
I'm just sayin', IMHO--
Give the turd no mental ammo.
Yeah I could see how he would think it was a set up. I mean aside of the affair he's not a dumb guy.
Yeah I don't think I can have him choose anything since he was so "I can do what I want and time needs to happen" crap!
Do you think like a few days prior I should pull back a bit or seem preoccupied? I mean if we're doing great, which we are(except for OW and his living arrangement LMAO) is going to be like what the heck?
Am I supposed to be peachy great and then drop the PBL? Will that seem weird or premeditated? Advise please. It seems weird to me to come out of no where.. but I'm still gonna do it. I just hope he doesn't get it. Would it seem better if I was kinda out of sorts just a bit and then it come?
And when I hand it to him and pointers? I was going to thank him for a great day and hand it to him and tell him how much I love him. Is that ok?
I am worried that I had him do so many chores that he may wonder if I used him although it was his request to please let him do the brakes on truck. He could think you used me to do all that stuff so you could drop me.
Ok Mentors shoot.....
Personally - I'd ask him a question a few days before plan B starts.
Something like:
Have you been considering stopping your adultery with (OW name)?
if he hems-haws his answer - your question IS his "heads up".
Would it seem better if I was kinda out of sorts just a bit and then it come?
And if he noticed (big if), you could get a far-away look in your eye and say, "Oh, I was just thinking about how I'd like to spend the rest of my life." Then with a gentle shake of your head and a Mona Lisa smile say, nevermind, hey would you like a drink or something?"
JK of course. Since I never did a Plan B myself, I defer to the vets.
No. Don't be out of sorts.
PB isn't about you getting mad and getting payback. It's about how you choose to live the rest of your life, and who you let be close to you.
Personally - I'd ask him a question a few days before plan B starts.
Something like:
Have you been considering stopping your adultery with (OW name)?
if he hems-haws his answer - your question IS his "heads up".
I agree... but what happens when he answers either way. Does she take it further or just change the subject.
I don't think asking him will work.
Remember when he stayed the night 2 weeks ago and we had breakfast together and he said he didn't want to hurt anyone any more and that time needs to happen(what ever the h3ll that means I have no clue-time to have 2 women I guess while he decides which one he wants??LOL)
And he's made 2 mentions that he can do what he wants and no one can tell him, and he means the both of us, the OW and me.
So is the general consensus to be strong Plan A and drop the letter just like that? Man that freaks me out. It just seems like it would be easier to get the letter if I was sad or something, but I'm gonna give it to him after a great Plan A day?
I'm gonna do it but want to be sure I do it right and that he doesn't think I planned this. I did however since implementing Plan A tell him 2 times that I didn't know how long I could go on doing this and that I would let him know when I couldn't do it anymore. Last time I said it 2 weeks ago the morning we had breakfast he said well I can not come over if that will help you, so you see I don't think asking will work.
If you think it will help, you can add in a phrase like, "I've done my best not to show you how much this has been hurting, but..."
So it's clear that you've been in pain all along, and just chosen not to let him know.
If you think it will help, you can add in a phrase like, "I've done my best not to show you how much this has been hurting, but..."
So it's clear that you've been in pain all along, and just chosen not to let him know.
Yeah true, I like that, think that will work. I am hurting and I am sucking it up every time I see him maybe I can slip that lil line into PBL too.
Well he's gonna be here in an hour or so. Yup, house clean and candles lit. Tonight we will be serving, Rigatoni with bacon and sausage made with a fresh olive oil and deiced tomato sauce with sprinkles of fresh basil and a fresh salad with home made balsamic dressing and for dessert we have fresh baked peach pie!
So is the general consensus to be strong Plan A and drop the letter just like that? Man that freaks me out. It just seems like it would be easier to get the letter if I was sad or something, but I'm gonna give it to him after a great Plan A day?
I'm NOT an expert, but if it were me, I would show something, some sadness or melancholy or something. To be cheerful and upbeat and then hand him that PBL seems misleading, less than honest, to me. I would *feel* dishonest in the acting cheerful, knowing what was coming.
If you are worried about him thinking you've just been using him to get some chores done, I might add a sentence like "I really appreciate your coming around these past few weeks, but this just hurts too much. I've tried to deal with it as long as possible, but like I said, I can't go on sharing you forever." or something.
Then maybe as you say goodbye and hand him the PBL, I'd look into his eyes sadly and say something like, "I DO love you, I hope you know that."
Yodelayheewhoooooo!Ok he's gone.
I didn't end up going to salsa but am trying to plan it sometime this week. Everyone that was going ended up flaking and DD17 couldn't watch DS10 after H left so no biggie there are classes all week.
H came at about 5PM he stayed til 9:15. He actually said to me he had planned to stay the night but he just remembered that he is scheduled to be in San Diego tomorrow and his apartment with the Sea Hag is an hour closer. Anyways was quite surprised that he said that he was going to stay as no one invited him this time.
We had dinner and he chatted a lot about his job. Conversation was #3 I think and so I've been really been concentrating on him and listening when he speak. I wonder with all the chatting he does with me about work and what happens with him during the day how much can he be doing with her?
We had alone time for about and hour as kids were gone with sports etc. So yes SF took place!
Still had the minor ED prob but was manageable(sorry for the TMI guys just venting and being transparent hope that's ok) but this time I think it was worse in this way.
At one point I was like ok dear God I don't think he's going to be able to ejaculate.
Now I'm really trying hard to not notice this is taking F-O-R-E-V-E-R :crosseyedcrazy: and I don't mean that in a hurry up kinda way. I mean I'm down for taking your time but whew I was ready to surrender! Man can a double life jack a guy up that bad? We in 24 years have never ever had these issues-never!
LMAO Ok I need to laugh my booteh off for a minute cuz i could have never looked back a year ago and seen my life like this knowing I would be talking on this forum to mass people about patchouli oil, pumpkin pie, watermelon, red fire proof paint, candelabras, candles, ED problems, ejaculation issues and having SF with my H as the OW you could have NEVER made me believe it LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
Anyways he says he may be back for a visit on Thursday he has to check his schedule, it kinda changes daily.
But yeah I can't imagine that I'm gonna be too perky handing the PBL to him. What if I cry, should I try my best to not cry? I'm not sure I can, I am hoping I can even keep it together during the visit. Feeling the weight of whats gotta be done.
I think I won't have him do anymore chores for the next week and a half, in fact the kids and did the garage yesterday which is probably good since he would have done that.
He just texted me that he got home and said goodnight and thanks for dinner.
Well friends one more Plan A day done and a week and a half left.
There is nothing in MB that says you can't have an opinion.
You might say something like: "It has been great.. but not "the way I want to live the rest of my life" kinda stuff."
Also, you may add, in your letter or tell him in person, that his attitude of "I live on my own time sched...poo" REMIND him- (or have your pastor remind him,) that he has a
young son. Ask him if he would want HIS BOY treating two women like he has been treating his wife (and, I guess OW
?)
Does he want better, expect better, for
his boy?
What does he want his daughter to get from a marriage? THIS STUFF?
Well, YOU DO wnat better for YOU and the kids-- and you want the example you lay down for your KIDS to be better than this...........
To be cheerful and upbeat and then hand him that PBL seems misleading, less than honest, to me. I would *feel* dishonest in the acting cheerful, knowing what was coming.
I agree!
I really don't think it will be a problem. You can mention something ahead of time, like you wish things could have been different...............
Deep in his foggy little mind, he has GOT to know that he can't have a wife and an affair partner for very long.
Oh, and although I LOVE the way you write about everything, you might want to edit every few days, just in case he ends his affair and wants to read your posts. That happens quite a bit.
Yeah I guess I should go edit that. Very good point.
Went over the PBL and added the I'm not your jailer thing and also mentioning the stuff Jayne said too.
Gonna double check my conditions today as well.
If there is anything I need to pass on to my mediators, tips and things, let me know as they are gearing up for next week.
Also I thought I read somewhere there is a good article that walkaway H should be handed if he comes home. I think it kinda lets him know what he's going to be going through or something like that. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? If so can I have the link?
I remember the post, but forget what it is called. Hopefully someone has it.
Plan B is very difficult, and he is likely to try to contact you for every little thing.
Mine came over to my home and knocked on the door for 2 hours, begging me to talk to him. Then I heard NOTHING for 4 months.
OMG your kidding.
Well when I cut him off for the 1st 5 months he never came over unless a visit was scheduled. I sure hope he does that again but I don't know.
So you didn't answer the door? Why did he knock for 2 hours? Did he want to come home?
Ok so when and IF H gets to the place when he wants to come home he needs to tell the mediator or can he just come home? How does that work?
Yeah I want that article to hand him if he comes home so he knows what he's in for.
Don't hand him any articles....don't try to educate him.
Let him wander around in the darkness. You are the lighthouse.
No, I didn't answer the door, and it was hard. He was still deep in the affair and didn't get the no contact idea. He finally gave up, and I didn't hear a word from him until 2 days before Christmas, when he called me at work and announced he was in the process of moving back home, still with the affair going on.
He constantly claimed he had no contact, but it never lasted longer than 12 hours.
You can worry about when to let him home later, but basically he needs to agree to no contact, writing a no contact letter, which you approve and send, and agreeing to be an open book and accounting for all of his time.
How did you know he was still deep in the affair? How did you find that out?
So when and If he comes home then I will sit down with him and show him the list?
Here are my final conditions. Do they seem to much? I basically tried to address as much as possible so he can't come back and say well you didn't say that.
My conditions for recovery:
Letter to Toad, explaining that you will not communicate with her EVER again. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life stating something like you love me and your family and you intend to work on the marriage and want no contact with her for any reason for ever. Period. When you are finished with this letter it should be given to me so I may be sure its mailed.
Full and complete disclosure. Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. I want to be able to ask as much as needed and then move on. No lies or hiding any part of truth, no covering, just the full and complete truth.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
Read Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book. Be open to phone counseling with the Harley's and plan to attend a Marriage Builder Weekend by the Harley's.
Cut off all ties to any new friends or family you made by this Affair. No phone calls or emails to and from them. Remove all those #'s from your cell phones.
No discussion of the Toad.
Change Cell phone number and close down all emails and use the family email account and tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. if contact is made and if you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.
Since she previously worked at your employer and everyone there knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
Close secret email accounts that you started when communicating with her and give me access to your lap top and trade phones at anytime. Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible.
Close down personal bank account and use family bank account. All deposits will be made into joint bank account. I will pick up all checks and no finances in any form will be given to the toad.
Get rid of anything she has given you, cards, memorabilia, clothing, anything at all.
Accountability for time forever. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
Well, that is a long list. I would settle for no contact, all of your questions answered, being an open book, and no nights away from home.
You don't want him to feel like he has this HUGE list to do and will be forever paying for his affair.
However, only you know what you need to consider taking him back.
I am worried no contact will no stick as when he came home for 2 weeks after discovery(before I found SAA) he said that he did check the email that she set up for him but he couldn't get in because she changed the password. And then sometime during that 2 weeks he drove down to where she was and apologized and started the affair again and lied to me for another month til I had him followed and pictures taken. Thats why I addressed shutting down all email accounts, changing the phone number and also talking with employer since she was a co-worker up until a month before I found out. she handled some of his scheduling.
He had also said during the 2 weeks he was home that he felt responsible for her and wanted to give her money and i said no way, so that's why I addressed the bank account thing.
I can try to scale down but some of I have already went through and don't want to deal with again.
The 1st discovery was tolerable, but finding out about the 2nd time and lying again was worse.
Yes, finding out about a second betrayal is a real drag.
In January, after my ex tried to move home, he came over on Sunday morning and wanted to get back together. He told me that he and OW were done. And I knew from her husband that OW had spent all day Saturday in bed crying.
So we went to church together, and my ex stood up in front of our congregation and confessed his affair and asked for prayers for our marriage. I was so happy.
Then we went out for breakfast, and discussed how to recover. Later that night, he was going to a men's group meeting at church for accountability.
I went to Walmart to get some things, and decided to drive by the home he was renting to get the address to be sure the OW got the NC letter. I was SHOCKED to see his truck and her car parked there.
I knocked on the door, and his roommate let me in when I asked to speak to my husband. The roommate pointed out his room upstairs and I went up and knocked on the door. It was around 5:30PM and was dark, and the room lights were off, and I heard the sounds of them having sex.
That was my last try at recovery.
I read your thread daily and you are doing an amazing plan A!
Your goal is to get WH to end the A and commit to recovering the marriage, but the list of conditions is really long and I think might scare him away. That list might make him think it would be too much work to come home.
I'm not saying that anything on your list shouldn't be part of recovery, I just don't think it should be presented to him all at once as soon as he wants to come home. I mean you could tell him about MB a few days after he comes homes and then suggest some phone counseling and then suggest a MB weekend.
You could also require NC but then verbally discuss the EP's needed to ensure NC.
Remember you have been reading and learning about MB for a while now, but your WH has not. It may take him some time to get on board with all that it takes to recover your marriage.
Went over the PBL and added the I'm not your jailer thing and also mentioning the stuff Jayne said too.
Be very careful of the Plan B letter getting too long. It needs to be a short and concise as possible, else he won't read it.
If there is anything I need to pass on to my mediators, tips and things, let me know as they are gearing up for next week.
That they are to ONLY tell you things of an unemotional nature. i.e. "WH wants to pick the kids up at 4 instead of 6 on Friday". Nothing about "WH wants to do this because he won't be able to see them next weekend because he has to blah blah blah...".
And certainly not "WH sounds sincere to me" or "WH looks awful" or anything like that.
The info should be pared down to the very barest essential information that you absolutely HAVE to know. Everything else is filtered out.
My conditions for recovery:
Letter to Toad, explaining that you will not communicate with her EVER again. No loopholes. No contact for the rest of your life stating something like you love me and your family and you intend to work on the marriage and want no contact with her for any reason for ever. Period. When you are finished with this letter it should be given to me so I may be sure its mailed.
Full and complete disclosure. Become completely honest. Our marriage will not survive further deception. I want to be able to ask as much as needed and then move on. No lies or hiding any part of truth, no covering, just the full and complete truth.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
Read Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book. Be open to phone counseling with the Harley's and plan to attend a Marriage Builder Weekend by the Harley's.
Cut off all ties to any new friends or family you made by this Affair. No phone calls or emails to and from them. Remove all those #'s from your cell phones.
No discussion of the Toad.
Change Cell phone number and close down all emails and use the family email account and tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind. if contact is made and if you are honest about this, we will simply find a way to prevent it from happening again through more precautions.
Since she previously worked at your employer and everyone there knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
Close secret email accounts that you started when communicating with her and give me access to your lap top and trade phones at anytime. Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible.
Close down personal bank account and use family bank account. All deposits will be made into joint bank account. I will pick up all checks and no finances in any form will be given to the toad.
Get rid of anything she has given you, cards, memorabilia, clothing, anything at all.
Accountability for time forever. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
So what will happen if he breaks one of these. Are you going to kick him out? I think this is waaayy too much detail for a newly returned WH. I understand what you listed and why and totally agree, but to lay all this on him at first (in this much detail) might be a mistake.
B,
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OM GOMGOMGOMGOMGOGMOMGOG
Ok I feel better now. Man oh Man. I am so sorry. You are amazing. all you've gone through but you still help others. IT is a ministry ya know. At least it is in my book.
Yeah it hurt the 2nd time worse so thats why i have so many conditions. Do you think I could maybe say here are my conditions and the reason they are so extensive is because of the 2nd time he lied. Maybe that could explain where he might understand?
The reason I mentioned the counseling thing in conditions is he has always said counseling is dumb we know more that them and don't pull dr. phil crap on me.
I think If I don't at least be open to some counseling he will never agree to it once he is home.
Ok I'll try to simplify. This brings a good point what if WH breaks something what do I do?
When he started the A he hid money that I found in his wallet and stopped letting me get checks under the guise of I'll be in the area. That's why added the bank account stuff.
He works in the entire southern california area randomly 6 days a week so they can even schedule him in the area where he lives with OW now, so that's why I added having employer not schedule him there. HE could end up inspecting right next door to her and since she is an ex employee she can call and email his work phone and email anytime she knows the numbers and addresses. Changing them is the only way I know would work.
So do you think I can make definite conditions and them add under that be open to these additonal conditions because of the 2nd time you lied and went back to her (before I found SAA)?
If hubby was a good husband before, chances are excellent that he will be again.
On the other hand, you will hold all of the cards when he wants to reconcile. Better to set the bar high.
But don't get ahead of yourself. If things work out like we want, he will most likely WANT to do what is necessary.
Perhaps have it happen in levels.
Level one would be talking to you directly about recovery. This could be achieved by:
1. Agreeing to NC, as a concept he is willing to follow.
2. Phone counselling with SH, one alone and one jointly with you.
Level two would be proceeding forward with recovery efforts. This could be achieved by:
1. Continuing counselling with SH.
2. Executing the NC letter, and letting you send it.
3. Willingly adopting your specific list of extreme precautions.
By breaking it up like this, you don't have to throw your whole list at him at once, but you don't throw out your boundaries, either. Detailed extreme precautions, IME, are VITAL to recovery, especially when there has been a false R. The bar needs to be set so much higher.
I would also recommend leaving in a "whatever else I need" clause, so if you think of something later you can add it.
Depending on how the OW reacts to the breakup, it may even be beneficial to move far away.
Can you summarize several of the items just by saying "complete transparency and access to all email accounts, passwords, cell phones, etc."? Details can be worked out after the initial stuff.
Also, I agree with keeping the PBL short, in spite of my suggestion to add a couple sentences. If you can add them and reword something to still keep it short, that's good.
Perhaps have it happen in levels.
Level one would be talking to you directly about recovery. This could be achieved by:
1. Agreeing to NC, as a concept he is willing to follow.
2. Phone counselling with SH, one alone and one jointly with you.
Level two would be proceeding forward with recovery efforts. This could be achieved by:
1. Continuing counselling with SH.
2. Executing the NC letter, and letting you send it.
3. Willingly adopting your specific list of extreme precautions.
By breaking it up like this, you don't have to throw your whole list at him at once, but you don't throw out your boundaries, either. Detailed extreme precautions, IME, are VITAL to recovery, especially when there has been a false R. The bar needs to be set so much higher.
I would also recommend leaving in a "whatever else I need" clause, so if you think of something later you can add it.
Depending on how the OW reacts to the breakup, it may even be beneficial to move far away.
This is a great suggestion.
Ok I am going with the general consensus as I know you guys know whats best. I am revising it in a bit.
My PBL is just short of a page. I can actually post it in a bit.
Neak,
So do you mean have a couple conditions for him to actually come home (move back in etc) and then a 2nd set to recover marriage?
I would see him moving back home at any point in stage 2 that you can see by his plethora of actions, that he is totally serious.
He's already had one false R, so he no longer has the luxury of blundering around.
Also, after he talks to Steve, Steve will be able to give you a good recommendation as to whether WH is ready to start moving back.
The first couple of steps are just to show that he's serious enough that you could talk to him about continuing to THINK about recovery.
What? So are you saying show him the first set of conditions and see what he says?
I am lost sorry. So what if he wants to come home.
I was under the assumption that if he agreed to the no contact then he should move home as he is living with her LOL.
Alright ya'll I'm slow at times, so I am just a bit confused as how this goes. I thought he would agree and then come home. But not so?
Help?
Funny just got off the phone with H as he called me to talk about his day. I asked when he planned on visiting next and he says well I really want to come every other day if I can. Interesting.
What happened to your "no expectations"?
I wouldn't worry about all the conditions until it actually happens.
And be prepared that he may read your posts here once he finds out about MB.
And, of course he would like to come every other day!!!!!! He's turning into the Cakeating King.
By now he's eating cake for a wedding of 10 thousand made especially by T2L full time bakery
LOLOLOL.
Yeah NO EXPECTATIONS! Ok so deal with it as it happens. That translates into: MENTORS YOU ARE NOW ON CALL EVERYDAY AFTER NOV 22ND FOR T2L! J/K
But I'm totally serious!
So I'm guessing once he decides I can know what to do a little better.
He was at one time a wonderful H so yeah I hope he returns to that too.
I think how fast it goes should totally depend on him. If he's as serious as you need him to be, you might consider letting him home very quickly, after a few days.
Maybe even home but not your bedroom - make that a few steps farther down the road.
SH will be an invaluable help in navigating you through this, too.
I would tell him the general boundaries, i.e. NC for life, radical honesty, transparency, accountability, etc., and let him know I have specific ways I would need these implemented in order to heal. If he says "whatever it takes", I would consider taking him up on that, even if you haven't showed him every detail and gotten his agreement.
If he wants to see what he's agreeing to first, he may not be desperate enough anyway.
I also don't think it would be an LB to tell him that you need more from him due to the false R. He went back on his word once, and you'll need to see that he means it before you open yourself up to being hurt again. If he's repentant, he'll understand that. If he's not, he'll think you're being controlling.
Mortarman wrote this about Plan B - (the entire post is on my notable post thread)
Plan B is a door. It is a door out of the mess...and away from the adultery and pain. It is a door into a new life. One that the BS controls. Now, going thru that Plan B door may mean that your marriage is over. Or, as in my case, it may mean that your wife will meet you on the other side of that door. But that door forever changes the dynamic of your life.
If he wants to see what he's agreeing to first, he may not be desperate enough anyway.
That was great insight, Neak.
When he's REALLY ready to come home, he'll be willing to do anything and everything. He'll be committed totally and for the long haul.
So I'm going to re-vamp and go for maybe a few conditions to start with and play it by ear from there. I'll have the other conditions as things to do with recovery. Yeah I agree he should have an amount of jumping through the hoops if he wants to come home. We'll see what happens, I am mentally prepared for at least 6 months of Plan B. Sounds weird but I made mini goals for myself so I can attain them. I'll be at 7 months on November 23rd, funny 1 day into Plan B. I made my 1st goal of 6 months already so next goal is April 23rd. That will 1 year from the day my life changed.
We didn't see him yesterday but talked on the phone, and he just called a bit ago and we chatted. As for now he will coming over tomorrow afternoon. Not sure the plans for the weekend.
I think tomorrow we will be going to the local mall for tree lighting ceremony.
That's update for today......Thanks again as always for all your guys feedback and help. Sure could not have made it this far without ya'll!
If hubby was a good husband before, chances are excellent that he will be again.
Truer words are rarely spoken.
If hubby was a good husband before, chances are excellent that he will be again.
Truer words are rarely spoken.
Sure hope so.
As of now he'll be here in the afternoon. We had a few phone conversations last night so that was good. Went to salsa class,that was fun. Otherwise pretty quiet the last few days.
1 week and 1 day left till Plan B. All that's left....
Finish up with a good Plan A, and no expectations.
Also, it might be helpful to set some goals for you to accomplish in Plan B. It will help you keep your mind off of him. I went out with friends, started a new business, cleaned the house sparkling, organized, detailed the car, started a garden, exercised, and did volunteer work.
Will do finish strong Plan A. Plan B goals so far it more organizing, then painting my bedroom, painting 2 bath rooms, continue and add more salsa classes, plan a Christmas party with all my church friends, plan a New Years Party, and learn to play key board. Good start I think.
Here is my PBL with the chnages made around some of the comments H has made about "I can do what I want and I'm not on anyone's time line" and also added the reminder that I told him about now being able to do the sharing stuff forever, I know it's a bit long I tried many many times to shorten........
Dear Cake eater,
This is so hard. I love you so much. I want our marriage and family restored. Having you around the last few months and experiencing my real husband has been wonderful, I have really appreciated it. Especially Disneyland, being with you on weekends, having sex again and be able to give you my 1st lap dance.
I've tried to hide it as long as possible, but like I mentioned to you I can't go on like this forever. I wanted and tried to be close to you even under this painful circumstance of sharing you. I know that this situation is just a symptom of the problems that were in our marriage. I am so sorry for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped make the affair possible.
I love you and wanted to grow old with you, but I am not your jailer, your free to do your own thing, its just too hard for me to have you home and then you leave to Toad's. The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by sharing you and I want to protect what love I have for you. The last few months I chose to hide my pain from you to be close to you but it hurts so much I can't do it anymore. I am willing to create a new life for us but can't until you end your relationship with Toad once and for all.
Until then I can no longer see and talk to you. I sadly ask that you no longer contact me directly as I can no longer take the pain it's too unbearable. My email will be shut off today. I will assume that the finances will be the same as you have so amazingly and lovingly provided for the kids and I so far. Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for visiting the kids. If you need to talk to me they will pass on the information to me. I will be sure to have the kids ready for your visits by meeting you in the driveway.
I ask that you please understand my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you more than anything, I just can't see you under these circumstances anymore, it's killing me Cake eater.
The door back to my heart and the family is OPEN as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Toad with no contact with her ever again and start a plan to recover our marriage so our family will never have to be apart again. If we both work at our marriage, it can work a 2nd time. I am really going to miss my real husband being around especially this time of the year.
Your Wife,
T2L
It's WUNNERFUL!!
The only thing I'd change is
I love you and wanted to grow old with you,
I'd make that
I love you and want to grow old with you,
Awesome letter! A little long but covers everything we've all discussed.
One change besides what Turtle suggested:
Change: "your free to do your own thing" to "You're free..."
I really love it too! A couple of suggestions. First, don't forget to change the nicknames, lololol, and do not insert Sea Hag instead of Toad.
Also agree with Turtle's suggestion. No hint of wavering, only complete faith that your M WILL be restored.
A couple tiny suggested alterations are below in brackets.
Until then I can no longer see and talk to you. I sadly ask that you no longer contact me directly as I can no longer take the pain it's too unbearable. My email will be shut off today. I will assume that the finances will be the same as you have so amazingly and lovingly provided for the kids and I so far. Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for visiting the kids. If you need to talk to me they will pass on the information to me. [If you need to pass on important information about the kids, they will relay it to me.] I will be sure to have the kids ready for your visits by meeting you in the driveway.
I ask that you please understand [respect] my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you more than anything, I just can't see you under these circumstances anymore, it's killing me Cake eater.
The door back to my heart and the family is OPEN as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Toad with no contact with her ever again, and start a plan to recover our marriage so our family will never have to be apart again. If we both work at our marriage, it can work a 2nd time. [it can be even better than before] I am really going to miss my real [true] husband being around especially this time of the year. [especially during the holidays that have always meant so much to us as a family]
Great job - a little long, but I'm not sure what I'd cut, so unless you get a better suggestion, keep it pretty much as is.
Like it Neak gonna take those and add em in.
A little long, but good.
Did you really call her TOAD?
Ok Guys went over conditions shortened it a bit. Lemme know what you think. These are really staples to me since I already had 1 false recovery before I found SAA........
My conditions for recovery:
Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible.
1ST Condition
No contact with Toad forever, period. No loopholes. Write a letter to Toad explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and your intentions of marriage recovery and give it to me when you are done so I may ensure it's mailing. (To ensure No contact: Change Cell phone number, close down all secret emails and use the family email account, access to your lap top and trade phones at anytime, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties. Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind.)
2ND Condition
Read Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book to recover or marriage. Schedule Phone Counseling session with Harley's immediately.
3RD Condition
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
4TH Condition
Since she previously worked at your employer and everyone there knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
5TH Condition
Close down personal bank account and use family bank account. All deposits will be made into joint bank account. I will pick up all checks and no finances in any form will be given to the toad.
6TH Condition
Accountability for time forever. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
To him NO, called her a wh0re....LOLOLOLOLOL
But whats the difference Toad, Sea Hag, Biatch, Fat A$$, Scum bag, home wrecker it's all the same isn't it? LMOA
I'm torn between SeaHag and Toad.
I could see how that could happen How bout Toad the Sea Hag? Or Sea Hag Toad? Or Hag of the Sea Toads? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Ok I'll stop.
Sounds like a great title for a children's book!
Either that, or a name for a band!
but seriously, don't call her insulting names to WH, it motivates him to defend her and that's the last thing you want - for you to become the bad guy and he feels like defending her to you.
Great letter, love all the changes.
LOL, I don't call her those names. I did 2 times but that was in the summer before I had SAA. Once I found SAA I stopped all talks about her and the relationship, per the wonderful advice of my mentors and of course no LB's!
So did you guys see the revision of my Conditions? I shortened it. Is it better?
I like the way you have it organized. It has all the same stuff, but seems like less.
Shoag?
I could see how that could happen How bout Toad the Sea Hag? Or Sea Hag Toad? Or Hag of the Sea Toads? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Ok I'll stop.
How 'bout: Hagitha?
Charlotte
I called the OW the ditchpig. It even made my ex laugh.
What's dat mean??? Sorry LOL
Combo of SeaHagToad
LOLOLOL That's good! Told ya I'm a bit slow! Hee Hee.
So H has been here since 12:30 as his work day ended a bit early. He has been at the house doing chores again. I said hey you don't have to do this stuff. I don't want you to feel like you have to every time your here. He says well I like doing stuff around the house(yeah right he used to not want to do more than required, this is new behavior). He then says well when I'm not here I think of all the stuff I need to do.....I feel bad almost guilty. Now I want him to stop the chores since Plan B is now 1 week tomorrow.
So I am around the house doing stuff and hanging out with the kids and he is doing stuff out side. I came out for something as he walked in. Ok this is funny to me.
First I have to explain so ya'll wont get freaked out. Ok my husband and I have worked out and lifted weights extensively for since we were 16. So we read fitness magazines and keep up a bit on that kind of stuff. Well body builders usually shave their body hair off, I know it sounds funny but to us its normal and looks good. Well the 1st thing we notice when H starts hanging out is his arm hair is so long now. DD17 says ewe dad your arm hair is so long. I know thats how long he's been doing it even our DD17 noticed. Well today I come out and he shaved it all off and his chest hair too. I was shocked because that's something I like and I assumed maybe the long hair is either his laziness or OW likes it.
And then last week I said to him so when ya gonna trim up that goatee ya got going its pretty long, he says yeah it is isnt it. I say yeah are you applying for a santa job? Well he shaved it 4 days later and I said oh wow you look really nice. he then says I didnt realize how long it was till I saw it fall in the sink, I said Yeah I know and laughed.
Well he's gonna be back from getting supplies be back later.....
You always crack me up. I don't find shaving odd, and I know lots of people do it.
I wonder if the Toad shaves her mustache.
I know I guess I am weird but we run into people all the time that are like you shave your arm hair off? They think it's weird for a guy to shave his arm and leg hair off. I think its normal.
So he just left. He said I would stay the night but I'd probably be no good I'm pretty tired and my throat hurts, I say well its up to you, he says my 1st appointment it closer to my house. We'll see him tomorrow for DS10 game then I think he's coming for the day after that.
He thanked me for dinner, just soes ya know we had pesto angel hair pasta with spinach salad an sourdough bread and a nice bottle of Cabernet followed by apple cobbler and vanilla ice cream.
The kids were kinda hanging after dinner out while H and I talked over a glass of wine. We had a lot of conversation, not sure if they were ok or not, but i tried to do a lot of agreeing to some of the things we discussed or at least entertained the idea that he may have been right, so as to not commit any disrespectful judgments.
We talked a lot about things that happened, i didn't pry I dont even know how we ended up there. He knew that I was upset at his mother for telling him if he wanted Toad the Sea Hag that she would accept that. He told his mother that I need an apology. He agreed that I showed his mother such great love and other family members didn't show her that kindness and that it hurt me. He agrees that she probably didn't handle it right. He also agreed that his other brother should not have said what did I do wrong when I told him what had happened.
Then we talked a lot about church stuff as he was an associate Pastor there. My H by nature is a Jonah. He was to have this church passed down to us in the next year. I think it terrified him, I know it did. I think in his mind he thought he needed to be prefect and superhuman but he didn't. He said tonight well now everyone knows that I'm human. He was soooo loved by so many and I think he thought he had to be perfect. Then we talked about paying off some debt at tax time and a lot of stuff. I was proud of myself in learning to be a better listener, that was one of his complaints, and I found out after reading SAA that I had been guilty of disrespectful judgments, I feel terrible for it. I had not realized i was even doing it.
I'm really grateful for the book, either way now I know how to be an even better wife to someone.
We talked for a while and watched the kids play twister and laughed.
When he left he hugged me for so long and so tightly(with his hand wrapped around me, I tried like 2-3 times to pull away and he would not let me go so I just waited for him to be done hugging.
Tomorrow 1 week left. Hard after a night like tonight, had a really good time enjoying his company and conversation, but I remind my self that living the life as the OW even though I am his wife is worse.
I guess its my fear he may get mad and hate me again. He hated me so badly during the 1st 5 months and said so many things. He does acknowledge that most of it was wrong, he even said tonight I know what I did was wrong.
I joke with him, I said look no SF tonight, no using and abusing you. We both laugh, I say i felt bad your throat was sore...but there's always tomorrow. He automatically plans to stay over on days now without us asking now.
Good night, gonna remember this one.
And oh yeah, Believer, she doesn't shave her mustache she shaves her warts LOLOLOLOLOLOL
You can read the sections here on Openness and Honesty, and on Selfish Demands. There's a way that you can share how you feel without trying to make him do a certain thing. Things are going so good for you right now that I agree, in this dynamic you don't want him to think you were being dishonest all this time, that your being so "nice" was just an act.
One thing that BS's in Plan A often say to the WS is that they are making these changes for themselves, whether or not the WS chooses to come back to the M. Has anything like that come up in conversation naturally?
Jayne,
No that has not come up in conversation. I think I'm going to need to drop a hint. I think it may be a good idea as yes I want the shock and missing me part of it, but at this point I think he's truly gonna think this was all premeditated.
I think the next time he plans to come out but is not able to, which might actually be today because we have a ton of wildfires here in the Los Angeles area and he just called me and said that some of the freeways are closed and he doesn't know if he can make it.
Funny thing is he is already out in this general area at his job site(about 30mins away) and I mentioned going around another route and he was a little apprehensive saying that everyone else will take that road.
So if he doesn't come today I think it might be a good day to do it. I just need to know how and what to say without LB'ing.
I mean if he was already living here this wouldn't be an issue he'd come home either way.
What would be a good way to drop a hint without LB'ing to kinda let him know that this is hard for me that way next Saturday won't be a super or deceptive shock?
I want to say it without pressuring him since he's on that i do what I want own time line kick.
I would stop worrying about it. You are following a plan. He would be CRAZY to think that he can keep the TOAD and still have his adoring wife.
Your Plan B letter explains it very well.
Oops I didn't realize it was BA.
I worry a bit about him thinking this was all an act, but if you've been honest about the fact that you can't live like this forever, that's good. If it does happen to come up naturally, then let him know you are making these changes for yourself, because that's who you want to be.
I wouldn't change plans right now, you're doing great. You don't wanna drop major hints this close to PB, and you don't wanna be the one LBing him and making demands. Just try and be honest about things if they come up naturally - but you don't wanna bring up relationship talk yourself. It's a fine line. When in doubt, keep doing what you're doing, cus you're doing great.
Trying,
Stay the course. One of the major reasons of Plan A, besides helping you to improve yourself, is to show WH what he will be missing when you go to Plan B (but not to tell him first!). Otherwise, it WILL seem like a setup or an ultimatium. Ex: "Honey, see how wonderful things can be, but if you don't quit what you're doing, I'm going to cut you out of my life." THAT seems like an ultimatium.
What you're doing is showing him how things will be again. When you suddenly go to Plan B it is because you HONESTLY can't go on like this. You're not saying NEVER, you're saying WHEN.
P.S. FYI: Muse1234 (or whatever it was) is a poster named BA who is a single young guy that poses as different people periodically here on MB and tries to give advice (usually off the mark). We'll warn you if he shows up again. I suspected it was him this morning when I read his first post but wasn't sure. We have GREAT mods who keep track of him.
Trying,
Here's something MelodyLane posted about intermediaries from the good Dr. Harley that I thought you should read (I hope you don't mind ML). You might want to pass it on to your Plan B intermediary.
Regarding intermediaries:
1. Intermediaries act as "SPAM filters" (his words), allowing only communication that fits the boundaries set forth in Plan B to be passed on to protect the BS.
They do not share any other info he sends, regardless of how benign the content. He said they can tell me he sent something.
2. They remain neutral...just a messenger sending info on, no reactions.
3. If he sends something inappropriate, they thank him for his communication, but let him know it will not be shared and refer him back to the PBL.
4. He said if he tries to contact me any other way, they will indicate I have not opened/listened to whatever it is, and refer him back to them for all communication.
Obviously, the key here is to be very consistent and not allow WS to push the boundary.
PM,
NO don't mind anyone on here except the weirdos! I had no clue that muse guy was not legit! Thank God some one is watching and thanks so much for input!
Well he ended up coming. Got off early been here since noon. Worked around the house a bit then on his company vehicle. I wish he'd stop with the chores. At 1st it was great but now that I need to move to PB i want him to stop LOL!
Jayne,
It won't come up naturally in conversation since he has said a few times he knows he was wrong and he truthfully the 2 times we kinda stumbled on conversations about the A, he can't bear to talk about it. He says I don't want to talk about it. I don't think in a hiding way I just think it freaks him out to think about it all.
Yes I have made really great changes that I proud of myself for. He has not said anything about them so I don't really think its going to come up naturally.
I'm just going to keep going. 1 week today guys! Aside of sharing my bonehead hubby, Plan A has been challenging but fun because I love pushing my self and I love personal growth. Weird huh. Who on earth would call being the OW to your H fun? LOL
I had gone to the store a bit ago and he hung out here with the kids. When I got home I had said I spent a bit more than usual but I had picked up 2 turkeys for Thanksgiving. :gobblegobble: Then he says are we just gonna be here, and I think i flinched a bit and said more than likely and walked away like i was half listening. CRAP! I feel bad, and I know I shouldn't but I do just a bit. He thinks he's gonna be here, uggg.
Ok so when he moved out on May 8th he took the other garage door clicker that opens the door. I had someone immediately reprogram mine. So he brings it out and walks up to me in the garage and says here's the other garage opener can I reprogram it? (ready for this, I'm so lame sometimes) I stare at him with a half smile and a blank stare for at least 12-20 seconds as I'm running though my head of what the heck to say. Finally he smiles and says I can give it to DD17 and I say oh year sure.
But we had this convo at the beginning of Plan A if you remember he said I should reprogram my clicker and I say Oh no, and he says maybe I will and we laugh and I say nope you better not and I laugh again and say you can reprogram it when you want to come home full time.
Ok So general consensus is to just keep Plan A'ing, he prob won't ask anything about changes and drop the PBL bomb next Saturday with no hints or changes in my attitude or demeanor. Every time we are together we have a great time and everything goes well and SF most of the time....it's gonna be weird handing him that bloody letter.
Ok ya'll. I gave him the PBL tonight. I am so sad. I am balling as I type. Its like starting all over again. Hurts worse I think, this time I have no shock to stop the pain.
Here's how it happened.
The last few weeks he had said he would stay the night, and we hadn't even asked him.
Well H visited today, had a nice visit like we always so for the most part. Were outside At about 5 he says he needs to get going and I say well why don't you stay. HE says I can't I have plans I say where ya going? He says to a wedding, and I say by your self? at this point DD17 walks up and hugs me and listens. H responds yeah Im going by my self, who would I take? DD17 spouts out your wife! And I say hey don't say that. Then he says its some friends, i say really. I don't know why but that little conversation was like a punch in the stomach. Why it wasn't a bad conversation.
So I at this point start walking into the house and he follows me and I say kinda sweetly this is tiring. He says what and I say nothing its nothing. H responds mentally? And I say yes mentally. It's really tiring having to share you and he says your not sharing me and I say well you don't live with your wife(this is a very light conversation and we both are kinda smiling at this point) you live with another woman and then I say well let's not talk about this and I change the subject. I didn't want to give him the letter in a way because of this little conversation. I didnt want him to feel it was punishment. But for the next hour I agonize within my self, my stomach hurts and I don't feel right. I want to cry. I finally thought OMG I have to give this to him tonight. I don't really want to but felt like I have to. I dont know why I felt like falling apart. Why now I only had a week left.
So he gets ready to leave about 7 and he pulls me up to walk him out to the door. He says goodbye to DS10 and then I walk out with him. I say I have this card for you, but don't read it til after the wedding go and have fun. Promise don't read it til later and have fun. He says I don't want to go but I have to. I say really its not big deal go and have fun and I put it in his hands. He hugs me and looks at me and say do you want me to go away? At this point tears are starting to fall I try to stop them and I can't and I try and smile and I say just read this later and know that I love you. And he drove away and I came in the house and ran to my bathroom to cry. I have called my mediators and they are ready.
Man, I am so sad you guys. I can't stop crying. Thank you all so much for being there with me the last weeks. You have helped me have the best chance for recovery and either way I hope some day I can repay someone. Tonight I just need to cry. Gotta get together gotta go lead worship at church in the morning. Notified my Pastor and he says he is praying and standing with me.
K guys back tomorrow.......
Hey, Girl, try to keep your chin up. You have done a stellar Plan A, one he is not likely to forget very soon. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't come negotiating to get back home really soon. I was just thinking today how strong you have been, and I was wondering how long you would keep it up. Plan B may have come a little earlier than planned, but your delivery was excellent. You let him know when you gave him the letter, it was because you loved him. I think you have pushed him off the fence. Sleep well, you have done the right thing. Prayers are with you tonight. GF
Trying,
I rarely get on MB on the weekends, especially at night. I'm so glad I did tonight because I read your post. You did great with the Plan B letter. Remember we told you that you would KNOW when it was time. You did the right thing. It's hard but it's for the best.
Now, time to be even stronger. Plan B is tough but you will find some relief from the pressure of Plan A. You've got a bunch of people behind you-- us. Think of the commerical about the Verizon network crowd following the guy around wherever he goes. That's us.
Try and get some rest. Tomorrow is a new day. Stay busy, it'll help keep your mind semi-off things.
Keep posting. That's what we're here for.
for you.
Hey T2L;
I have never posted to you. I have been following you since your first posting. I was crying when when you wrote about the PBL. Just wanted to let you know that just like me....there are probably dozens of people that are not posting to you but that are reading your thread. More than likely these dozens of people are praying for you now more than ever. I found this on a web site and wanted to share it with you. This is a letter from your Lord to you;
"I am your Shield of Protection. Many times you wonder where I am in the midst of the battle that rages around you. You feel abandoned on the battlefield. Don’t be afraid and don’t lose faith. I am here, and I am always victorious. I will protect you, but you must trust Me. Sometimes I will lead you to shelter for safety and restoration. Other times I will ask you to join Me on the front lines in the heat of the battle. I can kill any giant that threatens your life, but, as David the shepherd boy did, you need to march forward, pick up the stones, and face your enemy. I love to prove My strength when the odds against Me are the greatest and hope is the smallest. I am truly your Shelter and your Deliverer, and I will protect you no matter where you are."
Love, your King and your Protector
I hope this helps a little.
((((((T2L))))))
Angie.
BE ASSURED that one week's difference is not going to make or break your Plan A. You did totally awesome, right to the finish. It's in God's hands now, and you can trust Him.
Once you make it into the end zone, it doesn't matter if you're 2 inches across the line and flat on your face in the grass, or if you run all the way through. You still get your 7 points, right? Well, you scored your touchdown tonight.
Have comfort knowing that you've done all you can do. I can't think of any way for that last exchange to have gone better.
2 Timothy 4
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
T2L,
If you felt in your gut the time was right for the Plan B letter then I'm sure it absolutely was. Your instincts have served you amazingly well ever since you learned and understood the plans.
Go ahead and cry, and grieve, and hurt. You have to get it out of your system somehow. I bet some of the tears are anger, too, that he's such a bonehead and putting all of you through this mess.
Remember that you're grieving for the H you hope he can be, and the H you want him to be - NOT the H he is right now. You are absolutely doing the right thing.
When you get done with the initial tears, go back to your list of things you wanted to do while in Plan B. Paint your bedroom and start doing other things on your list. Go to Salsa class even if you feel depressed - especially if you feel depressed. Activity is a very good antidote for depression.
Post here whenever you need an ear. We're only cyber, but we'll do what we can.
<<<<T2L>>>>
T2L
Hun, I am so proud of you, you took to the plans so well and you have done the most amazing plan A I have ever seen. You, and only you, can decide when you NEED to go plan B, you have obviously reached that point. I remember how hard it is to do it (I did it twice). Be assured you are in my prayers.
I only have 2 scriptures for you "...T2L can do all things thru Christ who strengthens her.....all things work together for T2L who loves the Lord..."
You are a wonderful person, a good mum, an amazing wife, and while I have complete faith cake eater will come home sooner rather than later, know that no matter what you are worthy of being loved and cherished by your H, whther it is CE or another.
And please please please tell me you remembered to edit out the Toad part.
LOL to Neak!
You did perfect!!! You knew exactly the right time to go to Plan B. You did that every bit as perfect as your Plan A has been. Because of the way it came about, IMHO it was completely reasonable and natural, not a setup or anything at *all*. You didn't stay in Plan A a minute longer than you wanted, or a minute less either. It was perfect.
You rock!!!
Concur w/Jayne.
All that prep work and planning really paid off. You were ready for Plan B at the drop of a hat and when the time was right, it was right.
I don't see how this could be seen as contrived or premeditated at all. You have just been planning for the inevitable.
How are you holding up?
How are the kids?
I don't believe I have posted to you before either, but it looks as though you did a stellar job.
Please, please don't break the Plan B. I did two or three half-assed Plan B's and I'm now about D'd. If I had stayed dark after I did the first one I may have had a chance, but I kept taking his calls and letting him back in with basically no conditions except a "promise" to write a NC letter, a "promise" to be honest, a "promise" to do MB stuff, and well, you get my drift. I kept forgetting that waywards are.....LIARS.
Finally after the umteenth Dday and lie, I blew. Wrote an email and left a vm doing some LB's. I didn't call him names or anything like that, but basically said I wanted the LSA and that he should communicate only through his atty. He looked at it as a threat, turned the tables on me and became very hostile - he basically Plan B'd me from that point on. Oh, I worked with Jennifer and wrote a couple of emails apologizing and pleading to a new way forward, but he finally had the excuse he needed to go be with OP.
So, stick to the terms of the PBL, stay dark, and do not even consider taking him back until he meets ALL conditions. If you do it right, you can recover.
Good luck....
Morning ya'll. Tried to sleep but didn't go so well. Got some rest. Still pretty sad, but I'm gonna go to church in a bit. Have huge support there, it always refreshes me.
Thanks so much to everyone for all you love and support. IT helps it really does.
Yes I removed the Toad from the PBL, although she is one! LOL Ya know it made it so much harder when I handed it to him. He knew, he said do I need to go away? I wanted to die right there. He already looked sad.
Chai,
I am planning to keep my Plan B just as strong as Plan A. That's kinda one good thing about me I try to be consistent. HE's not going to see me. I am now a ghost LOL.
K guys 1 thing. Last night about a couple hours after he left I was balling on my bed and I got a text, thought it was DD17 but it was H. HE sent me this "
" My phone has no way to block his texts but trust me guys I'm not responding. If I can look at a hickie while SF is taking place and not flinch the text thing is nothing. I just looked at the text and said to myself leave her. I mean he left me after 23 years, it can't be that hard after only knowing her 1 year. Not my problem.
Guess he read PBL. I did not respond and will not. He thinks my email is shut off cuz I put that in the PBL so I know he won't try to reach me that way. I already told DS10. I said son, remember how I told you I couldn't do this forever since I am sharing your dad and it hurts. DS10 says yes. I said i can't talk to him til he makes a decision to leave Toad. To my surprise he says "good!"
Both the kids are fine. DD17 says mom were gonna be fine and hes gonna lose out if he doesn't get it together. I told DS10 that he'll still see his dad so he seems fine. I mentioned to him I cannot see dad at all so I may miss a game.
So guys, after reading Chai's post,
IF he comes home can I say I'm sorry but you cannot come home until the letter is written and put into my hands and you agree to the conditions?
Ok 1 day down. My darn eyes are swollen, lovely
Let's hope I can keep it together this morning.....I'll check back in later this after noon.
P.S. I LOOOOOVVVVEEEE YOU GUYS! You all simply Mah-velous!
You may need to shut down your texting temporarily. His text to you was a combination of reassurance-seeking and disrespect. Perfectly normal so don't worry, but just know it for what it is.
If you get another one I would definitely recommend shutting down. Even get a new # if you have to. It doesn't bother you too much yet because you have too many other wounds, but very soon even that tiny bit of C attempt will be like being stabbed in a half-healed wound. (As I used to say to myself, "When I'm holding my intestines in my hands, I don't really notice the mosquito bite." Catchy, huh?
)
Keep on praising God - you did your job so well.
Get rid of your texting. No contact, stay dark. Every time you have any kind of contact with him, even reading a text, you are helping the OW.
And I think your timing was perfect. Being that you were upset, you did just fine.
Now get busy with self-care and things you like to do. You are not allowed to focus on him.
Ok It's gonna be hard for me to get rid of texting. Told him in PBL that my email is shut off, its not really but I shut it off after discovery and started a new one so I think he thinks its shut off.
I have tons of stuff church wise, musicians, worship team, also my DD17 that communicates with me via text as everyone is so busy.
When we had the 1st 5 months of of no contact H never texted me and I never texted him. We just stopped talking. I don't think he is going to text anymore truthfully, but I have set in my mind to not respond if he does. Financially I cannot afford to get another phone at least not yet.
I plan to stay fully dark. When he texted I did not respond as I knew it would be crucial to the Plan and so he would believe that I was serious about what I had said in the letter. I know if I had answered he would think I'm a liar and it would jeopardize the purpose of Plan B. I'd rather die than for him to think I'm not serious about not contacting me. No way Jose! I'm staying dark. Plus everyone that didn't stay dark(what I've been told and what I've read)have huge regrets for flip flopping and not staying dark. Not gonna be me, I'll take their advice-I am now a ghost.
Ok so no thinking on him...OMG....Gimme a day or so. Still hurting. I know I'll be feeling much more cheerful in a day or so.
Need to go take a little nap since I don't think I slept at all last night....Tired....mentally and physically.
Can you ID the texts before you read them? Because even hearing from him is not good.
When he really wants to get your attention, he'll start zapping the bank account. I don't recall, did you get that part taken care of? I sure hope so!!
Hang in there, T!! It gets a lot easier to handle in two or three weeks, assuming he doesn't fold by then.
Charlotte
Thinking of you T2L. You are my Plan A calendar girl and I really wish you all the very best in this next phase. You have proved how amazing you are and your strength is inspirational.
Take care of yourself!
Footprints
Also Known As "I Had a Dream"
One night I dreamed a dream.
I was walking along the beach with my Lord. Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life. For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand, one belonging to me and one to my Lord.
When the last scene of my life shot before me I looked back at the footprints in the sand. There was only one set of footprints. I realized that this was at the lowest and saddest times of my life. This always bothered me and I questioned the Lord about my dilemma.
"Lord, You told me when I decided to follow You, You would walk and talk with me all the way. But I'm aware that during the most troublesome times of my life there is only one set of footprints. I just don't understand why, when I need You most, You leave me."
He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you, never, ever, during your trials and testings. When you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I carried you."
I just researched my phone and i think it does have a text notification thing so I'm gonna see if I can program it.
So far today went to church took a nice nap and am feeling better. No crying today. I think it helped since I had cut him off before for 5 months before I found this. Sounds kinda weird but I have been here before and I know what its like to not have contact with him.
Just a bit harder as he was not the nut I was used to then, but the no contact feels familiar.
Think I'll paint my toes tonight and maybe organize some more.
I am posting my revised conditions again for you guys to go over. I cut them back since the consensus was it was too much. Calling all mentors let me know what ya think......
My conditions for recovery:
Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible.
1ST Condition
No contact with Toad forever, period. No loopholes. Write a letter to Toad explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and your intentions of marriage recovery and give it to me when you are done so I may ensure it's mailing.
To ensure No contact:
Change Cell phone number, close down all secret emails and use the family email account, access to your lap top and trade phones at anytime, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties. Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind.
2ND Condition
Read Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book to recover or marriage. Schedule Phone Counseling session with Harley's immediately.
3RD Condition
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
4TH Condition
Since she previously worked at your employer and everyone there knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
5TH Condition
Close down personal bank account and use family bank account. All deposits will be made into joint bank account. I will pick up all checks and no finances in any form will be given to the toad.
6TH Condition
Accountability for time forever. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
Nitpicker! I think painted toes sound, um, interesting...like something the Dervish would do, and probably already has.:RollieEyes:
Neak,
LOLOLOLOLOL Ok Toe Nails, I decided just for you to stop at the cuticle just for you! Man your good,it's frightening!
Well made it through yesterday with no crying a full complete day 1 of Plan B.
Feeling ok this morning, so far, LOL.
Today going to keep self busy. Going to wash my truck, vacuum the pool, clean the garage, possibly go to the gym and read. I think I might even go lay out and get tan as it's hot here in Southern California right now.
And going to try my best to not think about H........
I think I might even go lay out and get tan as it's hot here in Southern California right now.
You're more likely to look like a Dalmation if there's any ash blowing around in the air and settling on you. Or you might end up like some of those people in Pompei. :MrEEk:
Good job. Stay busy. That is what helped me the most. Then when I started obsessing about WH, I made myself think about what kind of curtains to hang in the bedroom. It worked.
I did a whole bunch of organizing, painting, and changing things in my home. It felt GREAT.
possibly go to the gym and read
Most people go to the gym to work out, but whatever floats your boat.
Oh yeah forgot about da fires! Well its about 30 minutes from me and the wind is blowing most of the smoke the opposite direction so I don't have too much smoke, thank God. The fires last month we had a lot of smoke but not this time. Who knows maybe its a self tanner day.
LOL, Hillarious! I mean go to the gym and when I come home read! Not sure I can handle a dumbbell in one hand and a book in the other. Prob drop it on my head!
Man, I'm thinking I need to go back ta gramma schoo cuz my writen is sucky today. I think all that Plan B delivery burned up lots of my brain cellz!
I've got no words, just hugs.
(((((((((T2)))))))))))
Just so you know, I totally sucked at PB.
Like, hoovered big time.
I am in awe of you.
Ah. And I tried to read on the treadmill once.
Pert near killed myself.
Kids thought it was AWE-SOME!
("do it again, ma!")
Turkeys!
What do ya mean hoovered?
Awe thanks for the support.
As in sucked................
Mas suckage, vacuum of space sucked...sucked the chrome off a bumper sucked...
That's hoovered.
Ohhhhhhhh! Sorry ya sucked! Want some suckers, lollipops or a straw or something? I think if you had used a vacuum you might have sucked a lot better. LOLOLOLOL
Well your recovered so I guess it didn't matter in the end, eh?
No worries I'm one of those determined, muscle through things kinda weirdos so I think my Plan B will go as scheduled.
Hmmmm. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Are you going to your parents? I predict that day will be dangerous to Plan B, unless they now have Turkey Top Ramen.
Well for Thanksgiving the kids and I thought about catching a movie and just relaxing, decorating the Christmas tree and doing some baking. Kids expressed wanting to stay home and relax and I really wanted to be home too. Not even sure If my mom is still doing thanksgiving because her work schedule is so packed.
Why will it be dangerous. I'm not letting his cheating butt in or around. Plus it's no use I'm a ghost now LOL
Maybe I will tell the kids we were going somewhere that I haven't decided and tell em that morning that were hanging out at home that way if he asks kids he won't think we'll be here.
Oh, don't worry about it, just prepare for it.
As I told you, my ex tried to move back home 2 days before Christmas. Holidays are always ripe for waywards coming home. And especially if they are having Turkey Top Ramen for the feast.
T2L-
My thoughts are with you.
QUESTION: What do they say about false recoveries around the holidays? I mean everyone gets sentimental and homesick, (a lot of people get pets - puppies and kittens-- that soon become unwanted pets- btw)
..err, sorry, I wander...
But is there any stats about emotional return homes (too early for real recovery) at the holidays? I'm afraid that T2L's GREAT plan of action may be thrown off course if WH comes home, only to discover
he has not thought everything out first--
I mean, I can see this happening, I have heard of "holiday reconciliations" -- what is the shiz?
and I do not want her family to go through this scenario--
she and her kids have been through ENOUGH--
any vets out there with advice?
Very good point Barbiecat.
Is it a LB should H come home during a holiday or our 19 year anniversary(Dec 9th) to ask him if he's really sure or if he's just feeling blues about the holidays? :happythanksgiving:
I mean there must be a way. I am in no mood
for a false recovery though I know it comes with the territory.
I would really want him to know about the withdrawals he may experience and I would want him to be aware of false recoveries too.
Yes MB Vets do tell.......
Is it a LB should H come home during a holiday or our 19 year anniversary(Dec 9th) to ask him if he's really sure or if he's just feeling blues about the holidays?
I don't know about everyone else or what the vets will say but based on my own personal experience, the holidays didn't mean anything special when it came to my DH's feelings. We suffered through Thanksgiving AND Christmas with him still actively pursuing his affair. It made no difference even though we had been married 25 years and had four children. It was the first year that we didn't go to his mother's for Thanksgiving or Christmas.
Of course I had been doing everything WRONG and was no where near a Plan A at that point. My DH had no desire to be around me. I was an extreme mess... either hysterically crying or insanely raging. You, on the other hand have done a stellar Plan A and your husband has most definitely noticed.
FWIW, I can see your husband pining for his family during the holidays but I don't think it would be a false pining, but more of a pronounced awareness of what he's missing.
I bet you that Top Ramen totally has a Holiday line or maybe I should write them suggesting one just for my dear departed just Plan B'd Cheating Spouse!!! LMAO
:happythanksgiving: I mean I can see it now, Turkey ramen, :gobblegobble: Yams ramen, stuffing ramen, mashed potatoe ramen, cranberry ramen, pumpkin pie ramen, :pumkin: apple cider ramen, green bean casserole ramen, and for our cake eating Walk away cheater's cake batter ramen and we can even add a Christmas line that would add a honey basted ham flavor and sugar and ginger bread cookie ramen too, I mean whadda ya think guys, I'm feeling stinking rotten hungry now!!!!!!
I mean tell me you can see it too, and boy oh boy can ya just smell it, shoot, forget me cooking me and the kids are thinking of joining him in his car to share all these scrumptious flavor of ramen and we can even serve it on his lap top. There might even be room if we take out his suitcase and put it on top of the car.
I don't know about you but I feel the need to eat or is that puke?? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOOOOOOOOL!
Man I do love this thread. The possibilities of betrayed spouse madness can't get any better.
I understand the worry about a FR because of the holidays, but there will always be and EXCUSE for a FR...because it is just that, an excuse.
The best way to make certain that there is NO FR is to make certain every i is dotted and every t is crossed BEFORE he moves a toe across your threshold.
After that, if there is a FR it is his choice...not because you caved and let him in because he got "a" and "c" done, but promised he'd do "b" and "d" "in a little while."
Capice?
You warm me to the cockles of my teeny, tiny heart, T2. You are a kind and generous soul.
I was censored!
It was just another word for the crinkles of the blood pumping organ located about the center of the chest...
Rhymes with "bockles..."
If you do decide to paint your toes, either dip them in the can or get spray paint. It's much faster, and I know how busy you are.
Holidays? I think they contribute to the feeling of loneliness and bleak future without the family, if that's the direction they're leaning anyway. IMO, and I could be totally wrong on this, I am not aware of any link between holidays and false recoveries. I think either they're repentant or they're not, no matter what time of year.
How cute! Our kitty is pouncing around with a balloon. I predict this isn't going to end well...
Loved the Ramen line. Cranberry Ramen, yum.
YES, send a suggestion into the Top Ramen people. I know that they will at least send you a case of Top Ramen. My sons love it. But as far as I know, there is only Oriental Ramen, Chicken Ramen, Spicy Chicken Ramen, Beef Ramen and Shrimp Ramen.
Might be a vegetarian Ramen, I forget.
What does it say about me that I know (or at least am pretty sure) that there's a Pork Ramen?
In Canada it's called Ichiban.
Hey you guys quick and probably obvious to most question.
So H can obviously call the house and talk with DS10 right? I mean we don't live with the mediators so I would think it's ok as DS10 needs to talk with dad.
Ans what if H tries to make plans with DS10 to visit while on the nightly phone call? Should i instruct DS10 if dad wants to make plans he should take the information and call him back?
ALL requests go through the mediator.
He should not be making requests through a 10 year, who has a 10 year old's hopes and wants and needs.
In Canada it's called Ichiban.
Of COURSE it's pork ramen, and it can be made from (or BY) any pig with an Itchy Bun. I bet you thought they just MADE up these names...
OK.
What, pray tell, is Ramen????
Noodles in a thin broth.
The noodles are very long, thin and curly and make complete tacky mess on the table if the kids forget to clean it up.
Yes, noodles in a broth. It comes in a styrofoam cup and you add water. Last I checked it cost 25 cents each. But you can make it gourmet by adding an egg and chives.
I know what it is now!
I googled it, and we ahve a similar product here called '2 minute noodles'. They use to be really nice until they decided to go all healthy, now no-one here (at home) will eat them.
The kids always forget to clean it up. Also, the Oriental flavor is the vegetarian one. (Don't ask me how I know. Also, I have no idea how this actually tastes, but my um um FRIEND said that Ramen is really delicious if you put in a bunch of vegetables, a dash of soy sauce, a little sprinkle of garlic powder, and some soy abalone.)
Agree visitation needs to go through the mediator. As long as you have caller ID so the kids can answer it directly, it shouldn't be a problem to have him call. If he does try to abuse the system, just get your DS a cheap cell phone for communication with his dad. Tracfone has a good prepaid deal, and isn't very expensive.
Ramen = Each package has like 500% of your daily recommended sodium (I'm exaggerating, but not by much).
Trying2live, you are an inspirational lady. Stay strong with your plan.
Best wishes to you,
YS
YS,
Awe
Thanks for the support. Yup Strong Plan B.
And ya know what you're right! Those ramen noodles are soooo stinking bad for you. Lots of sodium and lots of calories.
Stay far away from ramen even if they do offer Holiday flavors!!!!
LMAO
T2L,
I have been lurking on this board for over a year. Knew there was trouble in my marriage, didn't know how bad till I found out about WH's EA this past January. Some day I will post about it, but I digress. I just came on here today to lurk (haven't in a long time) and there was something about your topic title that caught my eye. I spent the entire day reading through every single post in this thread.
I wanted to tell you how inspirational you are. Your courage and conviction. Your patience and determination. I could go on, but everyone here has conveyed the same feelings and thoughts about how you are handling this. You are the Queen of Plan A.
I also wanted to tell you that your post about the day you enacted Plan B really hit home. I felt your hurt, the pain and anguish. I cried when I pictured what you had just gone through, and I don't even know you.
That is the kind of impact you are having on all of us. Which brings me to the last reason I wanted to reply to this thread. Your story, the way you have handled it, the way your WH has reacted to Plan A, the way DD17 has handled this with such a wink in her eye and the difficulties that your DS10 has had with all of this.......Well, (please don't laugh) All I could think of was, "This would make one heck of a 'Lifetime' movie!" (I'm serious)
No matter how your PB works out, you will still come out of this a winner. I'm thinking seriously that you should give this a little thought. Your story is compelling, heartbreaking, spirit renewing and "power to the woman" all rolled up into a great 'chick flick.'
You and your story reminds me of a quote....
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." -- Walt Emerson
You are a shining example of what lies within us.
Good Luck, T2L. And thank you for sharing your journey.
BeamMeUp,
Thank so much. my mind was wandering just a bit and feeling just a bit of sorrow, as I am vacuuming the pool, organizing my closet, and cleaning the garage(can you tell I'm trying to stay focused and keep my thoughts captive?) and I jump on to read your encouragement. I am weeping cuz I just needed that, I started to feel a bit down for a few.
Thank you so much for posting and reading. I hope that my story goes as I would like. BUT NO EXPECTATIONS you here that believer?? LOL J/K but that was the best advice ever and saved me much pain and allowed me to do the strong Plan A because I had no expectations. And also my life saver was the I'm the thermostat and not the temperature and I am the light house and not the ship at sea. That gave me the right mindset while walking through Plan A to not be moved and to just do the Plan.
Love the movie idea, now I have such a passion for saving marriages. It burns so deep in my heart. I would love to save any family this nightmare. Even walk aways as they really have no clue to the h3ll they are about to enter. Even during the first several months my H confessed to just wanting to crash his car into the freeway embankment. At that time I said I understand but how would I explain to my kids you didn't love them enough to stay?
Yes we face horrible pain by this but as hard as it is to say I can admit that I know my H has experienced pain through this as well and I don't think, although he told me just after discovery that he said he knew what he had and he knew what he was losing and he did it anyways, that he truly knew the darkness and h3ll that he was getting ready to go through.
I know now that he is in that dark place again because he must now choose or lose. I will continue to pray for him and keep going until the grace God gave me to stand is no longer there. But either way can admit that I will always love him.
Thank you for posting. I love reading new posts.
Funny, I know a guys who does independent films, he was joking with me saying OMG I need to do a movie on you this is crazy. Maybe I'll copy and paste your post. Lurk any old time and say hello and feel free to join all my silly friends while we talk of watermelon, candles, patchouli, pumpkins and ramen.
Much Love.
T2L
Y'all are all forgetting the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of Ramen noodles.
I've only seen them in little squares wrpped in cellophane, and THEY COME TEN FOR A DOLLAR!!!!! I.e., each one costs 10 cents!!!!!!!
How good can something be for you if it costs 10 cents???
And therein lies the reason it is a staple food for grad students.
Think how much money you could save, if one meal cost you 10 cents?????
Hey guys,
Ok I am a little concerned. DD17 just came in to talk to me, says that most of the day she could not reach her dad then she said she just got a hold of him and he sounded bad, like he's depressed.
She said mom I had to force him to say I love you to me. She said he sounds like he just doesn't care anymore. She says he hardly talked to me.
What am I supposed to say to her about that? Now I am worried a bit, I mean DD17 can call anytime she wants but what if H talks like that to DS10 who has already had so much emotional damage from this whole thing and does not need more rejection from his dad. What if he hears that same tone in his dads voice that DD17 heard.
I mean I would hope that if he hates me once again he wouldn't put that on my kids. Is this normal?
now I have such a passion for saving marriages. It burns so deep in my heart. I would love to save any family this nightmare. Even walk aways as they really have no clue to the h3ll they are about to enter.
What you said here is so true!!
Even though I am the FWW, God convicted me so strong of the devastation and the pain that I caused that I decided to do something about this passion.
I enrolled in the University and currently pursuing a Bachelors degree. Hopefully after that I can do my masters. I need it in order to become a professional licensed counselor.
that he truly knew the darkness and h3ll that he was getting ready to go through.
Well, he kind of had an idea MAYBE. You don't know until you're actually going through it. He will BEGIN to understand the devastation, destruction that he brought upon his family until he TRULY repents.This only happens after complete and total NC, withdrawal, etc....But then he is going to begin having feelings of remorse and guilt, and let me tell you, those are very difficult to deal with. Especially if he is/was Christian. The thought of what he did to you, his children, to him but especially when he realizes that with this he hurt GOD as well.....
But this are issues that he is going to deal with....now you focus on PB...I am no expert in any of those plans....I think you are doing grrrrreat!!!
Keep up the good work girl!!!
You are an inspiration to a lot of girls out there!!
For reals, I am going to send my sister in law to read your thread, my brother cheated on her..
.....It gets me sooo mad that there's only so much that one can do to help them!! It got me sooo mad that he did this to her!!!
....
Hugs
A.
OMG Ok I need the VETS NOW!
Here is our 1st Plan B crisis or at least it is in my book. My mediators have quit. Here is why and the conversations leading to it. My mediators are mutual friends to H and I. Let me know if you guys think if did something wrong. Gave the mediators info about DS10 game and other info to pass to H. Here is conversation email below.
1ST email to H:
Hi T2L Hubby,
T2L wanted to let you know that DS10 game is Saturday the 22nd at 11 am. In this city at Grace Bretheren High. If you plan on attending please let me know as T2L will not attend so you can watch the game. If you can not attend T2L will so at least one of you is there. Also the house phone is now repaired and on so you can reach the kids.
Please call me if you have any questions.
Thanks
Mediator friend
RESPONSE from my H to the mediator:
Mediator, mediator, mediator!!! NO, NO NO!!! That doesn’t work. Do not get anymore involved in this. I know you are a friend to T2L and are supporting her though this but DO NOT call or email me things like this ever again even if she asks you too! This is how friends become friends no more. She wants to do this her way and use you to get in the middle. I would suggest you tell her you chose not to get involved. I really don’t understand why she would even ask you to do this in the first place. She knows I would react like this a lash out and I will lash out at anyone standing between me and my kids regardless of what I’m doing in my personal life. If I go to MY HOME to see MY KIDS I better not see anyone other than them!!! Its no ones business other than me and my family. No else is paying the bills and supporting them. I do!
RESPONSE BACK TO H FROM MEDIATOR:
T2L Hubby,
If it was me or a stranger , I will obviously respect your wishes. But no need to get crazy!! I was not coming between you and your kids. I thought if you had to communicate through a mediator you would rather a friend and not a stranger. To my knowledge this was outlined in a letter she has given you. If you had a problem with it, all ya Had to do was call me and say so. Either a) you did not read the letter or b) you just waited for me to contact you so you can respond like this... I obviously put myself in quite a position in doing this and would not have done so if I did not care about the situation.. Like I said I will respect your wishes.
Your friend,
Mediator
MEDIATORS FINAL RESPONSE TO ME:
T2L,
Obviously he did not read your letter. I take this as H and I are no longer friends. Which is fine I guess but I will no longer be mediating obviously. nor will he recognize any mediator for that matter.
I tried T2L,
Sorry
OMG so what NOW???? H is not going to respect the mediator no matter who it is. WTF!!!!! Help what now? What do I do if he shows up here at the house? I informed my mediators of everything but they don't feel he'll listen to anyone. Help!
OMG Ok I need the VETS NOW!
Here is our 1st Plan B crisis or at least it is in my book. My mediators have quit. Here is why and the conversations leading to it. My mediators are mutual friends to H and I. Let me know if you guys think if did something wrong. Gave the mediators info about DS10 game and other info to pass to H. Here is conversation email below.
1ST email to H:
Hi T2L Hubby,
T2L wanted to let you know that DS10 game is Saturday the 22nd at 11 am. In this city at Grace Bretheren High. If you plan on attending please let me know as T2L will not attend so you can watch the game. If you can not attend T2L will so at least one of you is there. Also the house phone is now repaired and on so you can reach the kids.
Please call me if you have any questions.
Thanks
Mediator friend
RESPONSE from my H to the mediator:
Mediator, mediator, mediator!!! NO, NO NO!!! That doesn’t work. Do not get anymore involved in this. I know you are a friend to T2L and are supporting her though this but DO NOT call or email me things like this ever again even if she asks you too! This is how friends become friends no more. She wants to do this her way and use you to get in the middle. I would suggest you tell her you chose not to get involved. I really don’t understand why she would even ask you to do this in the first place. She knows I would react like this a lash out and I will lash out at anyone standing between me and my kids regardless of what I’m doing in my personal life. If I go to MY HOME to see MY KIDS I better not see anyone other than them!!! Its no ones business other than me and my family. No else is paying the bills and supporting them. I do!
RESPONSE BACK TO H FROM MEDIATOR:
T2L Hubby,
If it was me or a stranger , I will obviously respect your wishes. But no need to get crazy!! I was not coming between you and your kids. I thought if you had to communicate through a mediator you would rather a friend and not a stranger. To my knowledge this was outlined in a letter she has given you. If you had a problem with it, all ya Had to do was call me and say so. Either a) you did not read the letter or b) you just waited for me to contact you so you can respond like this... I obviously put myself in quite a position in doing this and would not have done so if I did not care about the situation.. Like I said I will respect your wishes.
Your friend,
Mediator
MEDIATORS FINAL RESPONSE TO ME:
T2L,
Obviously he did not read your letter. I take this as H and I are no longer friends. Which is fine I guess but I will no longer be mediating obviously. nor will he recognize any mediator for that matter.
I tried T2L,
Sorry
OMG so what NOW???? H is not going to respect the mediator no matter who it is. WTF!!!!! Help what now? What do I do if he shows up here at the house? I informed my mediators of everything but they don't feel he'll listen to anyone. Help!
Don't panic. Someone here can be your mediator. One of the vets was nice enough to be mine because I didn't have anyone else. All they need is your email address and his.
You'll be fine. And a vet won't send you all the drama, that's supposed to be filtered out. I suppose it couldn't be avoided by your mediator but once you get a new one you won't have to worry about that anymore.
Don't let him yank your chain, Sugah!
Charlotte
I'll be your med. if you want. I know Neak could help me if I had trouble wording something w/out kicking his buttocks...(hehe)
I totally understand the job...but only if you are okay with it.
We could set up a special email account for it.
His refusal is a ploy to take away any control you have.
Welcome to Plan B.
His reaction is expected. Stay dark. Don't let him unsettle you.
But he was saying all that crap about "She wants to do this her way and use you to get in the middle. I would suggest you tell her you chose not to get involved."
I mean I really think he'll tell any mediator to "F" off and show up at the house and "do what he wants". I think he's depressed by what I wrote on the previous post and his pride is hurt and he's angry. How on earth am I going to get him to talk to a mediator?
Do you think what the friend said was worded wrong. IT just notified him of where and when of DS10's football game and let him know the home phone worked.
Ok I am a little concerned. DD17 just came in to talk to me, says that most of the day she could not reach her dad then she said she just got a hold of him and he sounded bad, like he's depressed.
This is the hard part. In Plan B, you should not be communicating with WH NOR should anyone be communicating ABOUT him to you, unless it's your intermediary to relay information about visitations, etc. I know that's hard to do when your daughter is reaching out to you about her dad, but it's necessary that you not HEAR anything about WH for now. Can you explain that to her? Is there anyone else she can confide in?
As for WH's little tirade against your intermediary, totally predictable.
Stay dark. Get a new intermediary ASAP. DeLean (sp?) would be a great one!
How on earth am I going to get him to talk to a mediator?
By giving him no choice.
Every time he tries to talk to you or come to your house, have the med. contact him and say "you didn't do this correctly...if you plan on doing x, y, and z, you need to let me know so I can pass it along to T2."
Period.
"Just the facts...nothing but the facts...no drama allowed."
And the med should re-send your Plan B letter to him with the bits he didn't do correctly highlighted so he can be reminded HOW to do it right.
I would like a mediator located in the Pacific Time Zone so it's easier to make plans with kids etc. or if any news needs to be immediately passed. Anyone want to do this who's in the Pacific Time Zone and be ready to be cussed out and ripped apart by and angry betraying H?
Wow sounds so inviting....sign me up! LOL Gotta find some humor in this especially after that fiasco last night....{{sigh}}
I truly did not see this coming. I thought with his
text he sent 2 hours after that he was sad and that would kinda be it. I mean after re-connecting and spending all that time from Oct 3rd to Nov15th that he would not do that. It's like he's going back to the fog again.
Is there anyone here who's H got pissed off like this but in the end was reconciled and came back just wondering.
Yeah but I know him and as surely as I live he's gonna tell you 1 time as surely as sparks fly upward, to take a hike and not answer your calls.
Isn't is funny how someone can be so nice and turn into a gargoyle in an instant?
I mean he's says No one can stand in the way of him and the kids and no one better be there when he visits, what the heck is he talking about that was never said!
Is there anyone here who's H got pissed off like this but in the end was reconciled and came back just wondering.
Baby, the Wookie spent nigh unto 2+ years pissed off at me for SOMETHING. I dunno what.
Wish I'd have done a good PB (and J - everything is better with jelly). Would've made making up a LOT easier on ME!
I know we have some Cali experts. I'm sure one of them will WAKE UP ALREADY and check your thread.
Is there anyone here who's H got pissed off like this but in the end was reconciled and came back just wondering.
My H got pissed when I told him I wanted him back. He yelled at me about how much he didn't care for me. I didn't know about MB and the plans (not that I would have been strong enough to do Plan B) but my H would call me 15-20 times a day, one time yelling at me, and the next sad and missing me.
Just from my own experience, I think your WH's reaction is totally to be expected.
I'm sorry you are going through this, you are a strong lady and an inspiration.
I mean he's says No one can stand in the way of him and the kids and no one better be there when he visits, what the heck is he talking about that was never said!
It sounds like maybe he is confused about what the role of the intermediary. It sounds to me like he might be thinking you mean to use a mediator to have supervised visitation with the kids.
This is why everyone says to keep the PBL simple and short. I think your letter was great and very clear, but it appears that your H's fogged head has confused what you wrote.
It sounds to me like he might be thinking you mean to use a mediator to have supervised visitation with the kids.
This is a VERY good point!
Could you ask your mediator to make one effort at clarifying this? If not, then I think that should be the first thing the next mediator does (in addition to passing him the PBL again, with certain items highlighted).
Based on his reaction, have you considered filing for a legal separation? If you do so, then you could use an official legal mediator I think. He'd probably pay attention if he received a legal document via certified mail that essentially states the most basic requirements of your PBL, sent by a neutral legal authority.
I think an MB vet is a great choice for a mediator. (Not me, I'm not vet enough and I'm not in the Pacific Time Zone.)
This is a good point, maybe he does think someone is going to be mediating his visit. My letter never said that.
At this point I do not think my friend who is his friend can handle it by his reactions.
{{{sigh}}} This is a bit harder than I thought. I mean I didn't think the staying dark and no contact thing would be too hard, but boy I didn't think he would get angry again ya know after the partial re-connection he had with me.
I have to say this has knock a little wind out of my sails. Not in the fact that I can't do it, I am just a little upset.
T2L, this is typical. Really, it is. My WxH was LIVID that I expected him to go through an intermediary.
According to him, it was his RIGHT to contact me any time he chose. He was wrong. He had certain rights in regards to his children but I was not one of them.
The first few days are the toughest. Stick to it. He's being a naughty child, stamping his feet because it isn't going his way. You took his cake, he's angry.
Just like a naughty child, he will eventually realize that no one cares if he is holding his breath for attention.
Work on another intermediary and batten down the hatches. He will rage and he will storm. Eventually, he will realize it will do him no good.
It DOES get better, T2L. I did not do a tight Plan B and I paid for it emotionally and physically - and quite possibly with the loss of my M.
Hang in there.....
He had certain rights in regards to his children but I was not one of them.
Yes. You are only enforcing *your* boundaries, you aren't encroaching on *his* rights.
Maybe you can make sure your kids understand you aren't saying their visits must be supervised? I dunno, you don't want to start using them as intermediaries, that's for sure.
Bumping for California ppl. Maybe you could post a new thread with a subject specifically asking for California/Pacific coast ppl to reply? You could even post an email address for them to send email to, in case they don't want to go public with their location. You could even create a new email account for them to reply to, so you don't have to post your main email account. You can start a gmail account for free and use whatever username you wish. (
www.gmail.com)
That's pretty good....He does have rights to the kids but NOT to me.
{{{Calling Pepperband}}}
She offered to mediate for me many pages back in the thread. Looks like i may need to take you up on that offer.
I am a little nervous
that he may show up at anytime not sure what to do. Would I just send the kids out the door?
If Pep is willing, I HIGHLY recommend her. She ain't no scaredy cat.
I would not recommend sending the kids with him on a visit that has not been properly set up through a mediator. Otherwise, how would you know where they were going and when they'd be back?
Did you already have a visitation schedule set up for any part of the 5 months, once he was fit to visit again?
If not, no worries - your new IM can take care of that right away.
Deep breath. This is going to be fine.
Just for info, here is the introductory letter I sent with my co-IM.
WS, Your wife has chosen not to have contact with you directly any longer, as your continued extra-marital involvement with OW is very painful for her.
The only exception will be if there is a life-threatening emergency or injury involving a hospital visit. In this case, please notify her immediately. As the health and safety of the children is always uppermost in your wife's mind, she will not be preventing contact with her if there is an issue affecting the welfare of the children.
In this event, she has requested that you relay information through the following channels. When sending information, please e-mail both of us so we can ensure she will get it in a timely manner: (insert IM contact info)
We will only be relaying information that is consistent with the letter your wife gave you on (such and such a date), stating that she will limit her contact with you to matters affecting the welfare of the children and emergencies only.
When your affair ends, and you are prepared to end all contact with OW for good, please let us know so we can inform your wife, and we will contact you with her response.
Sincerely,
The Intermediaries
Yes Pepperband offered a while back so just need to see if it's still in her heart to do. That's awesome to hear that's she's not scurd....LOL sorry I make fun of some of the dumb songs my DD17 hears on the radio...but yeah who ever does this is gonna need a huge back bone and be able to roll stuff of their back.
Maybe I'll put out a post calling for Pep. Haven't seen her post in a while.
My H was completely nuts the 1st five months, were talking angry man
I really don't get why I mean he's the one that did all this. Of course the kids and I were so upset and hurt that we did cut him off on 2 occasions for a month at a time so I guess that made him mad. He just couldn't understand why the kids were mad at him and why I didn't force them to see him.
I really don't get why I mean he's the one that did all this. Of course the kids and I were so upset and hurt that we did cut him off on 2 occasions for a month at a time so I guess that made him mad. He just couldn't understand why the kids were mad at him and why I didn't force them to see him
Yup, that's waywards for ya. Total petulant children.
Lucky for you, Plan B removes you from the drama. He can be angry all he wants - YOU don't have to deal with it.
HOOOORAY for you! T2L!
I don't think his reaction was unexpected at all. Cake eaters have HUGE sugar withdrawls.
Your Mediator may not have known what to expect- I think his reaction could have been much, much worse--
you are doing things quite well.
Take Pep up if she's willing-she takes n0-sheeeet.
WH will learn soon enough what the rules of engagement are. How can he expect you to go on forever like you were?
HEY VETS! Would be O.K. to have D17 tell him that there is no "boundries" for him to see the kids? and he can call them whenever he wants? -( but I really think he knows this, he's just trying to blow smoke at T2L and anyone who "stands in his way") I know there is to be no kid involvement, but D17 is 17, and she knows what is going on....
T2L -- he does not have control over YOUR TIME ANYMORE (you are the thermostat)
I'd keep D17 out of it. She's got her own issues to deal with because of her dad's poopie attitude, and I don't think she needs more responsibility or more to cope with.
T2L, you remember how WH kept saying "I do what I want" (read in a two-year-old "you're not the boss of me!" voice)?
He's been dining on cake - nay, gorging himself on cake. Heck, he's been frolicking naked in fountains of frosting!!
And now his cake is GONE ('cause you know OW isn't serving up very good cake AT ALL), and he's going to kick and scream and pout.
And as it turns out, he can't do what he wants, not if it involves other people and they don't give their permission, or if they choose not to participate. He's wanting to take his ball and stomp off home, only he's got no home to stomp off to!! He burned that bridge himself.
Sucks to be him.
Don't let him rattle you. Just sit back and enjoy the show. Except when you get a good IM you'll be insulated from the show. Dagnabbit, I had popcorn ready...
I'd keep D17 out of it. She's got her own issues to deal with because of her dad's poopie attitude, and I don't think she needs more responsibility or more to cope with.
T2L, you remember how WH kept saying "I do what I want" (read in a two-year-old "you're not the boss of me!" voice)?
He's been dining on cake - nay, gorging himself on cake. Heck, he's been frolicking naked in fountains of frosting!!
And now his cake is GONE ('cause you know OW isn't serving up very good cake AT ALL), and he's going to kick and scream and pout.
And as it turns out, he can't do what he wants, not if it involves other people and they don't give their permission, or if they choose not to participate. He's wanting to take his ball and stomp off home, only he's got no home to stomp off to!! He burned that bridge himself.
Sucks to be him.
Don't let him rattle you. Just sit back and enjoy the show. Except when you get a good IM you'll be insulated from the show. Dagnabbit, I had popcorn ready...
Ah.
I loves me some Turtle today.
I loves me some Turtle today.
<tj>
Turtlehead squeals with delight
</tj>
I'm squealing too, but I'm not sure its with the sound of delight! LOLOLOLOLOLOL
Loving the imagery of frolicking in frosting, that had me dying! I literally could see H doing that. Shoot I think he was close to OD'ing on frosting I would say.
Just talked to the last IM who H was snotty to and he said ya know what I think he thinks i was going to monitor his visit and not mediate. He says I'm going to call and clarify what the letter said, but I think it still maybe best to get someone that doesn't know him so it won't ruin the friendship.
Well I guess its good to know that he's acting par for the course. In all honesty its a scary feeling because you feel like ok did I just push him further but then I have to slap myself and think oh wait he lives with her LOL. Plus being the OW to the OW when I am his wife is ridiculous. I mean sorry bud at some point you don't get SF with 2 girls. But have to say still feels crappy.
I didn't think he would get angry again ya know after the partial re-connection he had with me.
anger is good -
indifference is not good
You need to be insulated from his emotional reactions right now - do not take his emotional temperature - he's not your business right now .... let him stew
Pep's here!!!
Now I can stop worrying about you.
:gobblegobble:
(Not that the others are chopped liver... just that I assume she's agreeing to be your IM... I hope...)
Of course he is angry......... He's beginning to figure out that he is going to have Top Ramen for Thanksgiving, and it won't even be Turkey flavored.
Hang in there, and don't let him get you down. I'm very hopeful that he will realize where he belongs.
Of course he is angry......... He's beginning to figure out that he is going to have Top Ramen for Thanksgiving, and it won't even be Turkey flavored.
believer you crack me up!
Thanks, I needed that!
Realizing where he belongs before all these darn holidays would be nice!!!! Well if you remain hopeful then so can I.
Neak,
I forwarded info from Pep to you, looks like a tag team IM baby!
I truly think its not so much the turkey flavor that's getting him down as it is the pumpkin pie flavored ramen that's really doing him in.
I don't know how busy Pep is, but Kimmy offered and she is one of the best. Don't think she lives in the Pacific time zone, but she is always around and would do JUST GREAT.
I would put my hat in the ring, but I have little patience for waywards. I might send him something like THIS - (from Craigslist)
To all married men looking to cheat,
It's getting to the point where I can't even read those stupid personal ads anymore, not even for fun.
They're loaded with married people, bitching about their spouses, and looking for something "better".
I've got a few things to tell you:
1. "She" is not the reason your marriage sucks. YOU are. If you spent half as much time paying attention to her as you do trolling CL for sluts, your marriage would be a whole hell of a lot better.
2. Yeah, yeah, we've all heard it a thousand times. You're in a sexless marriage. First of all, that's probably a lie, because most cheaters are liars too. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, pal- if your wife isn't interested in sex, it's because you're not offering sex that's interesting. Married guys get awfully boring after a while. They do the same boring thing the same boring way every [censored] time and they expect you to scream like a porn star. Seriously, you come home from work, totally ignore her while she chases the kids around for 4 hours, makes dinner, does the laundry, blah blah blah, and then you expect her to roll over with her legs open for another session of same-old same-old? When are you idiots going to learn that the best foreplay in the world for a woman is watching you take care of the kids, vacuum the floor, pick up the dog poo in the backyard. Or how about just listening when she talks? You know, it's not that [censored] hard to stop thinking about yourself for five minutes and hear what she has to say. Think about it- way back when, when you were getting your brains [censored] out on a regular basis- what were YOU doing differently than you're doing now? Planning dates, telling her she looked nice, acting like you're happy to be with her? A thousand dollars says if you do that stuff again you'll get the same result.
3. Your kids are NOT the reason you're staying married. If you were THAT miserable, you'd leave whether you had kids or not. If you're not getting a divorce it's because YOU DON'T WANT TO. For whatever reason. At least be honest and don't try to feed people that tired [censored] line about staying married for the kids. Contrary to what you think, it doesn't make you look like a poor suffering but honorable victim. You obviously don't care enough about your kids to treat their mother with enough respect not to cheat on her, and you don't care about them enough to spend time with THEM instead of some cheap whore, so cut it out with that crap. There is absolutely nothing honorable about putting your [censored] ahead of your kids. If you really really cared about them, you would put ALL your time and effort and money into saving the one thing that means most to them in the whole world- your marriage and their family. Otherwise you're full of [censored].
4. We all know how bored you are. Poor you, someone should really come along to entertain you. What are you, [censored] 12 years old? If you're bored with your marriage, it's because YOU'RE BORING, and have you ever stopped to think that if you're bored, she probably is too. But instead of throwing a temper tantrum like a 2 year old, she's at home cleaning out the lint trap on the dryer and washing kool-aid off the kitchen floor. Yeah, she's having a [censored] riot washing your underwear and cleaning up cat puke. Marriage is hard work. Hell, life is hard work. Grow the [censored] up and take some responsibility for yourself. You have a brain, USE it. Put some thought into your marriage and some effort into your life and stop blaming her and being a baby because life isn't fun.
5. You're looking for someone "younger". Sure you are. [censored]. You think you look the same as you did when you got married? I'd bet not. Even if you do, you haven't spent the last 10 years having babies (the ones YOU wanted) and sacrificing your body for them. The next time you have to have someone stitch your [censored] together because your just pushed a watermelon out of your butt, then you can sqwauk. If you ever spend 9 months with your belly stretched to obscene proportions, and manage to look exactly the same as you used to 6 weeks later, then you can [censored] about how she's not attractive anymore. Until then, shut the [censored] up. You have no concept of what she has sacrificed to give you the children you claim to love. You really think she wants varicose veins and stretch marks and saggy boobs? Get real. What she wants is a man who understands and values WHY she has varicose veins and stretch marks and saggy boobs. She wants a man who loves her because she was willing to make those sacrifices with her own body because she loves HIM. Instead, you criticize and go running off with the first perky 25 year old who gives you the time of day. [censored].
6. And finally, if you're cheating on your wife, there's something wrong with YOU. If you're not happy with your marriage, exactly how do you think [censored] some slut is going to fix that? Exactly how is that going to make anyone happy? Have you ever actually heard of adultery working out really well for everyone involved? Are you actually stupid enough to think that you're going to be the exception to that rule? If so, you are delusional and you need professional help. Affairs are disasters- not some of the time, not most of the time, ALL OF THE TIME. You guilt will drive you crazy. Someone WILL find out. You will NOT be able to keep up the lies and the deception. And it will all lead up to a disaster of epic proportions, which leads me to Lucky #7.
7. Here's what you can expect in the wake of your little [censored]-fest:
Divorce- this is where you lose everything- your wife, your house, half your income and possessions, possibly your job if you're stupid enough to be [censored] around with a co-worker, your kids- EVERYTHING. You will LOSE IT ALL.
Exposure- this is where everyone finds out what a scumbag you are. And they WILL find out. Your boss, your co-workers, your friends, your family, HER family, your neighbors, the parents of your kids' friends, everyone at your church. They WILL find out. Why? Because your now ex-wife will tell them. She will probably tell everyone she knows, and everyone you know, and she will feel good doing it. Consider yourself lucky if she doesn't rent a billboard. Otherwise, all bets are off. Be prepared.
Your Kids- this is where you totally lose the respect of your kids, and you deserve to lose it. They will realize in pretty short order that you didn't care enough about them to keep your [censored] pants on. They will see their mother cry and they will hate you for it. They will end up shuttling back and forth between their home and your apartment, and they will hate you for it. Every time they have to tell someone that their parents are divorced, they will hate you for it. And God forbid you decide to "introduce" them to your shiny new soulmate/[censored], they will REALLY hate you for that. If your kids are really young, you have a little time before all this [censored] hits the fan, but be warned, it's coming. They will forever see you as the moron who broke up their family. They will know that you can't be trusted, that you are weak and immoral and selfish. And they'll figure it out all by themselves, even if you never talk to them about it. Because your kids are smarter than you are at this point.
So, go ahead and whine your pathetic [censored] about how you're a victim and your wife is a horrible shrew. Do your best to convince yourself that you didn't have any choice and your wife "drove you to it." Start with the rationalizations and justifications now, you're going to need a lot of them. Remember that the best defense is a good offense and start a mental list of all the ways your wife is deficient. Make sure to re-write the history of your marriage so that you can say that you were miserable from the first day. Be sure to tell your wife that you love her, you're just not "in love" with her anymore. Deal with your guilt by lashing out at everyone around you. Above all, take no responsibility for any problems YOU may have that caused you to be such a spineless [censored] in the first place.
Congratulations, you've just joined the Adulterers Club. See you in hell.
Too bad I'm skipping Plan B and heading straight to Plan D. That would be my Plan B letter.
OMGosh -- that was absolutely hilarious, so right on and so needed right now!!!
I have to even use an emoticon!
Thanks! I needed to read that tonight!!!
BF439
So I guess I won't be getting the job of mediator...........
Ok guys had some very weak moments earlier. So the first IM called H to verify that he was just going to pass info back and forth and NOT to monitor which is what we all thought he might have thought by his email.
They ended on fine terms but H refuses to use ANY mediator and so I'm not sure how this is going to work.
So the 1st IM then tells me that H thinks that this is all a huge game and that I should have sat down and talked with him instead of handing him a letter. He then says that I am controlling and that the lines of communication were open and now there is nothing back to square one. The 1st IM says he thinks that H is looking for some kinda of apology or admittance from me(which was included in PBL as a blanket apology).
So this caused me to waiver and I almost considered calling and apologizing, but I called my Pastor 1st. My pastor said that they have a similar situation with an alcoholic in the family and that you can't listen to what he is saying right now. He said you have gone to the mentors and they know what they are talking about. He said stay the course and do not be double minded and that if I break now the 7 weeks of the perfect plan A will all have been for nothing.
Whew....It calmed me a little. I have to tell you though this is by far harder than Plan A, I mean can you believe its easier for me to SF with my H while he lives with the OW and Im looking at the hickey on him? Yeah I think I'm weird, well I guess you are who you hang around LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL..J/K You guys are THAT weird.
I do feel week and am very nervous about the IM working when he refuses to. He says that he's not going to talk to strangers or friends about his personal finances. What then.
My poor DS!0 is crying right now and says he hates his dad, says Im sick of waiting we just waited 2 months and now we have to wait more. DS10 took dads call just a few minutes ago and H says I want to come see you tomorrow. I told DS10 to tell dad you need to ask me. He says is that some kind of rule? DS10 says no its not that and H says Hmmmm and say ok goodnight. My son is so upset. He says he hates telling dad anything even I have to ask mom. HE has been through so much. Nail biting, anxiety, fear, sleeping with me for 6 months, and I just feel so bad for him because he was enjoying having dad back home. I tried to console him and he is angry he had to tell dad i gotta ask mom, he is angry and says i don't want to visit him at the park mom its stupid he should be living here.... I say your right and I'm sorry your hurting and If I could take the pain away i would and I am hurting too......{{{{Breathe}}}}}
Dear God give me strength. I know I can do it I'm just dreading what he could do in return....divorce, finances etc. I hate this part did I mention that. Man I am ever glad I am doing this now so he can feel more during the holidays. My pastor also said he needs to be alone and to experience life with out you so he can't blame you like he always has. I don't claim to be perfect I did have a few control issues birthed out of my fear that he would some day cheat. I should have given him more freedom even though I was afraid he would cheat. He said in one of his 1st emails to me after discovery that "i always knew that this would happen i just didnt know when". What the heck? I truly believe in some ways I felt that and it caused me to fear and control, not horribly but any amount is not good.
Officially, 3 days in Plan B and IT SUCKS AND I HATE IT!
Ok I can use 3 mediators. Pep, Neak and Kimme. Just be ready he has a temper, and your really really going to have to completely indifferent and emotionless or he'll get worse.
I'm scared again......
Ok I can use 3 mediators. Pep, Neak and Kimme. Just be ready he has a temper, and your really really going to have to completely indifferent and emotionless or he'll get worse.
I'm scared again......
It's OK - You are OK - you are safe - you are healthy - and most importantly, you are not alone.
Plan B is by far way harder at first, but then truly does get easier. It just takes patience, willingness to be strong, stay the course, come on here for support, believe that you are doing what's best for you and your M and ultimately allowing G-d to work his miracle and will in your life.
I wish there was another way. I TRULY DO... But trust the vets who are helping you. They know what they are talking about.
I wish there was another way to but know I don't think there is one.
Can someone again tell me the strategy of Plan B.
Dealan-de, how do I get your email address? Were gonna use all 3 of yous!
Pep, Neak and Dealan-de!
B, I feel bad - I had no idea you wanted to be an IM. You're so calm - I think you'd be a natural.
All you SoCalers, I hope the fires are dying down. I didn't have a chance to watch the news, but they've just got to be getting better. Yesterday, some of the containment was pretty low, like 18%.
T2L:
fer you...
He said you have gone to the mentors and they know what they are talking about. He said stay the course and do not be double minded and that if I break now the 7 weeks of the perfect plan A will all have been for nothing.
I LOVE your pastor. It's amazing how he's so on board with MB!
Can someone again tell me the strategy of Plan B.
Plan B first is to remove yourself from the chaos and get some inner healing. It's relief from the stress of Plan A and having to be on your toes all the time, although it brings its own kind of stress with a WH like yours.
Second, it is to force OW to meet ALL of his EN. During Plan A you were meeting some and she was meeting some. Now she will have to step up to the plate and meet them all. It won't happen because OW by nature are not up to the job. They will start LB each other all over the place. WH will realize what life will be like should you guys divorce. There will be no more T2L there for him. The cakeeating is over. He'll see the devastation caused by him. This is the way we HOPE it will go.
Finally, Plan B is for you. You have taken back control of your life, how ever it goes.
Don't be afraid... we're here. We've got your back.
Just be ready he has a temper, and your really really going to have to completely indifferent and emotionless or he'll get worse.
Honey, I survived a Wookie's wrath...AND Pep and Mel and Starfish and Believer and GC and Bob and everyone here telling me our sitch wasn't "speshul..."
Neak and Pep both have my email and can forward it to you.
I'll be moving starting Friday and don't know when I'll be on, but if you need any moral support or a shoulder or an ear, I'll keep my celly handy and you can have my #.
Believer, you made me almost cry...yer so good. I wanna be you when I grow up.
And your letter! OI! "...scream like a porn star..."
I nearly wet myself.
He said you have gone to the mentors and they know what they are talking about. He said stay the course and do not be double minded and that if I break now the 7 weeks of the perfect plan A will all have been for nothing.
I LOVE your pastor. It's amazing how he's so on board with MB!
Can someone again tell me the strategy of Plan B.
Plan B first is to remove yourself from the chaos and get some inner healing. It's relief from the stress of Plan A and having to be on your toes all the time, although it brings its own kind of stress with a WH like yours.
Second, it is to force OW to meet ALL of his EN. During Plan A you were meeting some and she was meeting some. Now she will have to step up to the plate and meet them all. It won't happen because OW by nature are not up to the job. They will start LB each other all over the place. WH will realize what life will be like should you guys divorce. There will be no more T2L there for him. The cakeeating is over. He'll see the devastation caused by him. This is the way we HOPE it will go.
Finally, Plan B is for you. You have taken back control of your life, how ever it goes.
Don't be afraid... we're here. We've got your back.
I'd like to add something to PM's post about Plan B.
It's all the things Princess said plus the added bonus of sheilding the love you have left from him before he bleeds your lovebank so dry that you can no longer be with him.
Plan B is about protecting YOU from his nuttiness.
T2L, take some deep breaths. Your Plan B is so hard on you because your mediator is not doing a good job. Maybe they don't understand their job, maybe they are too close to the two of you to be able to do the job. But the mediator is NOT working and that's why you're having such a tough time. Things will get a lot better with Pep and everyone else but Believer mediating for you. (Sorry, B, I just had to get a dig in)
...H refuses to use ANY mediator and so I'm not sure how this is going to work.
See? You shouldn't even KNOW about that. H is refusing because it's part of his temper tantrum. It's not his call, hon. YOU choose who you interact with and under what conditions. If you'd continued in Plan A your WH would just continue to cake eat. He had no motivation to change. And it's obvious that you went to Plan B at exactly the right moment for you.
You really shouldn't hear ANYTHING from the mediator except "WH wants to pick the kids up at 3 tomorrow and return them at 5 p.m. on Sunday" That's it! Wouldn't that have been so much easier? It WILL be eaiser - your new mediators know what they're doing.
So the 1st IM then tells me that H thinks that this is all a huge game and that I should have sat down and talked with him instead of handing him a letter. He then says that I am controlling and that the lines of communication were open and now there is nothing back to square one. The 1st IM says he thinks that H is looking for some kinda of apology or admittance from me(which was included in PBL as a blanket apology).
You should NEVER have heard ANY of this. Who cares what WH thinks? He is O-U-T until he ditches the OW, commits to NC forever, and agrees to make the marriage his top priority. You don't want that old WH. He's a selfish, manipulative, lying piece of dung. You want DH back, but wiser in the ways of being a real and true DH for you.
So this caused me to waiver and I almost considered calling and apologizing, but I called my Pastor 1st.
GOOD for you!!!! If you had called WH he'd have learned that you have NO boundaries, and that a little temper tantrum can make you change your mind in no time flat. He'd be encouraged to disrespect your Plan B. He'd become even WORSE than he has been. So you did great. And pretty soon you won't have to know about his fits because you'll be insulated from them.
Your pastor TOTALLY ROCKS, by the way. Just sayin'.
I have to tell you though this is by far harder than Plan A
Only because your mediator has not insulated you from his insanity. It will get better. Stay strong. You did a stellar Plan A - the best I've ever seen. Your Plan B must be just as perfect. A poorly executed Plan B damages everything, sometimes irreversibly. A poorly executed Plan B teaches the wayward that THEY are in control and that they can, indeed, act however they like without any consideration of others.
I do feel week and am very nervous about the IM working when he refuses to. He says that he's not going to talk to strangers or friends about his personal finances. What then.
Then he doesn't. His choice. But he DOESN'T talk directly to you. YOUR choice. YOU are in control. He can pitch fits until the cows come home but until he's ready to grow a pair and act like a decent human being, you won't know about it.
Dear God give me strength. I know I can do it I'm just dreading what he could do in return....divorce, finances etc.
I'd be majorly surprised if he did any of those things, especially after your Plan A. I really do think this is just a temper tantrum. And, really, T2L, if he IS the kind of guy that could be so hateful and vengeful to his own family, just because you decided you could no longer participate in his unbelievable selfishness and cruel treatment of you and his children... well, is that really the kind of person you want to be married to? Is this what you want for the rest of your life?
The purpose of Plan B is to isolate yourself from his selfishness, cruelty, disrespect, anger, manipulation, lies, deceit, and sense of entitlement. It is to bring peace and serenity into your life. It is to allow you to remember what healthy boundaries are, and integrate them into your life. It is to give you an opportunity to regain your self esteem and dignity. It grants you time and space to focus on yourself and what you value, and what your goals are.
It usually has the happy side effect of making the wayward feel the ramifications of their actions. They get to FEEL what life is like without you in it.
I am SO PROUD of you for remaining strong during such a stressful time.
Okay.
Day two of the Turtlepalooza!
All hail the Turtle!
One more thing...
Did your mediator read HERE what Plan B entails?
I don't think he's real clear on the rules.
I do feel week and am very nervous about the IM working when he refuses to. He says that he's not going to talk to strangers or friends about his personal finances. What then.
Tell yourself that
he is the one who introduced a stranger to the marriage (OW). Nobody asked you if it was okay. His choices are causing him to be in this situation.
Ok thanks guys. Feeling better. I guess your mind just really messes with you during Plan B.
You doubt yourself, you wonder if you just ruined any chance you had but then, at least for me, I know that Plan A is not a way of life.
My H knows that I doubt myself a lot. I have determination but I do doubt, where he would be totally wrong and not doubt. I used to apologize even if I didn't do anything because I hated the distance.
He used to say why are you apologizing you didn't do anything and I would respond because I just don't want to fight. Although as I said I was not perfect and needed some fine tuning, I did cater to him like crazy, I think It might not have been healthy for me. I had spotless house ever day, packed his lunch every night, dinner on the table right when he came home, did all his shopping even for clothing because he hates shopping, did the bills, scheduled everything with his family so they would be connected, all parenting and discipline of kids, washed, folded and put away all laundry and laid work clothes out for the morning, you name it I did it.
He was a good guy for many years, only prob his angry flare ups over kinda meaning less things, but not a daily thing, and he was kinda moody like just irritated, never super mean but he just was like not content. So anyways, I am used to catering, I loved to care for him that way as that was my share and contribution to the family as I am a stay at home mom and full time wife.
Ya know one month after discovery H came by the house to see DS10 they visit then we talk and he says if you want me back so bad why aren't you beating down my door begging me back. He's always known how much I love him but I think he has always looked at me as weak although I am not. I told him now way buddy, I did that after discovery and you came back for 2 weeks and guess what you did to me the whole time. You told me for 2 weeks straight that you shouldn't have come back, your here for the wrong reasons, you don't want to do the right thing, you don't love me like that anymore, you shouldn't have married me out of high school, you should have sowed your oats etc etc and now you want the mother of your children to gravel on her hands and knees and beg you back. I said NO WAY its not happening. Then he says so what your just gonna forget about me and I stare at him with a blank stare for like 10 seconds and say oh you want a response? The he says so I suppose your not going to wait around forever are you and I laugh and say well I am only 38. But that all happened just after discovery, so I say all that because I guess its probably really important for him also to see a new T2L that doesn't doubt herself and is confident enough to ride this out.
Ya know I just don't get how he read the letter and thinks I'm playing games...oh and he said I am making ULTIMATUMS...byt he letter. I mean it said I love you several times and says I want the marriage etc I mean you guys read it. I thought that he was out of the fog some during Plan A but maybe isn't huh?
STaying busy today, gonna start a keyboard program to learn how to play piano and I have church tonight......
Day 4 here we come,
Thank You God for my mentors here, bless them massively today cuz I could not even do this without them. AMEN!
Ok anyone for a serving of yam or cranberry ramen? :happythanksgiving:
I used to apologize even if I didn't do anything because I hated the distance.
Kiss those days 'buh-bye'.
Save your apology for times when you have done something wrong. It will mean more to both you and the listener.
emotional distance = anxiety on your part
You are about to grow stronger and more compassionate in ways you never expected.
Keep busy.
You've got mail .
as a reminder .... your first post of this thread ....This is a new post from my first post. I feel like I am going crazy!
So H had the A. Left the home since May 8th. You can view my other post to see all the details. But in a jist he's angry, drinking, crazy and blames it all on me.
angry
drinking
crazy
blaming
the difference of Plan B is ~~~> you will be protected from someone who is sucking the life force from you ....
he's not angry BECAUSE of your Plan B .... as you can see from your OWN words
K got it. Thanks guys. He wants to see kids today and I want him to see DS10.
I'm nervous, he's totally not gonna want your email. Yikes, Glad I'm not you! LOL
Yikes, Glad I'm not you! LOL
Be glad you're not WH !
God is with us. Never forget that.
PS: read my post right before your last one.
I'll also expound on what Pep said and tell you to STOP saying you're sorry because the only thing that a wayward hears is that you are sorry.
That opens the door in his noggin to agree..."yep, you ARE sorry..." As in, you are a sorry person...as in you are LESS than a person.
You are NOT any less a person than anyone else. You saying you're sorry all the time gave him permission in his pea brain to JUSTIFY his behavior.
NO!
MORE!
Okay?
I was sorry once too.
Now I APOLOGIZE (with that word instead of the "ess" word) when I'm wrong...and ONLY when I am wrong (which isn't often
)
I'd rather be me than wayward any ol'day. I don't think I'd survive the guilt!
This is true, he was doing all that stuff before Plan B {{{{click, the sound of a light bulb clicking on}}}} yeah your right he did do that right from the get go.
I guess I just feel guilty for shoving a mediator at him, I know I know I shouldn't, but there's a little there.
Ya know I just don't get how he read the letter and thinks I'm playing games...oh and he said I am making ULTIMATUMS...byt he letter.
Ultimatums and boundaries used to really confuse me, and then some wise sage on here (wish I could remember who it was, to give credit where credit is due) set it all straight for me.
Boundaries are about protecting yourself.
Ultimatums are about controlling the other person.
"If you continue to live with Sea Hag Toad, I will cease communicating with you directly, in an attempt to protect myself from the pain." <- Boundary
"If you continue to live with Sea Hag Toad, I will cease communicating with you directly, in an attempt to make you sorry and come back to me." <- Ultimatum
They are identical except for the motivation.
And with both, you better not say it if you don't intend to follow through 100%.
He's *hearing* your words as an ultimatum right now, because he was in total control (he thought) and now he's totally not in control (he thinks). So he hears your words as you trying to control him. Thus, he hears an ultimatum.
The truth of the matter is that you set a boundary, and you did so clearly and lovingly. You explained your reason for Plan B explicitly - to protect yourself from the hardship of sharing him with OW. Nothing could be clearer than that. WH is just not ready to hear your message. He's too self centered now and interprets everything very much like a self centered toddler. To him, everything is what "they" are "doing to" him, and none of it is about his role in all this and how he is now reaping the consequences of his atrocious behavior.
WH has some painful growing and awakening to do, and you can't do it for him. He has to do it on his own.
You know what's funny? He thinks he's lost control and he's rebelling against that notion, when in reality he holds the keys to reconciliation - dump OW, commit to NC for life, and make the marriage his top priority, bar none. You stated THAT clearly and explicitly in your letter. There's nothing wrong with your Plan B letter. The problem is with him, in that he's not yet open to hearing the message. He'll come around in his own time, and be a better man for it.
Ok anyone for a serving of yam or cranberry ramen? :happythanksgiving:
She's ba-ack!!!
You aren't shoving a mediator at him. You aren't forcing him to do ANYTHING... except to respect your boundaries. He can ignore the IM if he wants. His choice. There will be consequences, but it's still his choice.
It's your choice who you talk to. That's all. You can no longer deal with talking to him when you are sharing him. That's all. Other than talking to you, he can do whatever the bloody ____ he wants. His actions will have consequences, but that's not your fault, and his choices are not your fault.
I guess I just feel guilty for shoving a mediator at him, I know I know I shouldn't, but there's a little there.
save your appropriate guilt for wrong doing
what you are feeling is ANXIETY - change your wording for more accurate 'diagnosis'
you've got mailPep
True True I do have freaking ANXIETY!!!!
Maybe they can make a Cabernet, Pinon Nior or Margarita flavored ramen to help all us Mediator freaked betrayed spouse!
I haven't got mail yet....
I haven't got mail yet....
how about now?
OK got it! OMG OMG OMG OMGOMGO MOGMOGMOGMGOMOGMGOM
Ok {{{breathe}}}! Where is my Margarita Top Ramen! I need it now!
Thanks guys, well said. He's still gonna be pissed. But I won't know because you got myz back!
Well I hope he doesn't just show up to try and prove he's the man and he's still in control.
Can you guys set up the visit with DS10 and him today? I know they both want to see each other if possible.
Got it....Well said.
prayer circle God of Mercy
watch over this husband and this wife and their 2 children
protect them from evil
grant them serenity
bring them your peace
Can you guys set up the visit with DS10 and him today? I know they both want to see each other if possible.
Got it....Well said.
email the daughters with this and any future requests - thankyouverymuch
God of Mercy
watch over this husband and this wife and their 2 children
protect them from evil
grant them serenity
bring them your peace
Yessum and now you got mail! La la la lala lala lala.
I know i like sangin!
OK got it! OMG OMG OMG OMGOMGO MOGMOGMOGMGOMOGMGOM
Ok {{{breathe}}}! Where is my Margarita Top Ramen! I need it now!
Thanks guys, well said. He's still gonna be pissed. But I won't know because you got myz back!
Well I hope he doesn't just show up to try and prove he's the man and he's still in control.
Okay.
Dying to know here!
Love,
Nosey Nell
Just the freak out of the IM's contacting him and giving him the ground rules....I tend to freak out if you haven't noticed. LOL
Okay.
Dying to know here!
Love,
Nosey Nell
What the frick-frack? :RollieEyes:
Ok - you have mail in a few seconds
>sheesh< :RollieEyes:
Pep
I've been showering.
Kimmy has mail from me, too.
Alrighty.
Control thy freakouts. That's an order.
We have no control over the waynerds. We only control how we react to them.
We are Spock, only cuter, right now.
Let him do the freaking.
I've been showering.
Kimmy has mail from me, too.
Is THAT what smells so good?
Yes. Chocolate scented Axe for him, Pantene for me. Ahhhhhhh.
OK - got a movie crew on their way over to the house to scout - gotta go get showered and DRESSED myself - signing off for now - other spockettes ~~~> now taking over
Pep - out
Round of emails for da girls - on the house!
We have no control over the waynerds.
Love it!!
We are Spock, only cuter, right now.
Priceless!!
Am I not turt-ley enough to be a member of the turtle club?
Turtle,
Turtle!
(TJ - BTW: I have a red-eared slider here at work, and two musks @ home. The slider is Fred (Ginger passed), and the musks are Desi and Lucy)
God of Mercy
watch over this husband and this wife and their 2 children
protect them from evil
grant them serenity
bring them your peace
I'm back, had to do some errands. For all those following along or lurking, just know that I already feel 100X better having the strong mediators, although I am fighting the urge(LOL) to freak out knowing how H reacts.
I guess I'm going off of previous history and that's why I'm freaking out. I think his occasional outburst have always held me captive. Even his moodiness I think kept me captive to a degree since I just wanted him to be happy and although we had many many happy and funny moments there was always this underlying thing where he almost couldn't be happy, ya know what I mean?
Anyways if your here and you've been posting for a while, here is my recommendation. Do not use family or friends for mediators.
I can now totally see the difference having Pep, Neak, and Kimmy, doing this. Man its efficient and even though I am still wanting to freak I would have to say it has taken some of the edge off, not a lot yet, but I definitely feel comforted knowing experienced people are in place. I obviously know that not everyone he can do this and i am blessed for this that's for sure but {{whew}} don't use friends or family if at all possible.
Hey guys should get a crew of different MB vets all over and have a thread for those who want to be IM's that way when people are getting ready for Plan B they can check out or get referred to the thread. Obviously they need to be experienced and probably know SAA inside and out. IDK just and idea.....
You are in good hands with da GIRLS.
Now -- stop thinking and wondering about WH.
No more about him! Darkness needs to happen in your head too!
(I know easier said than done, but you gotta try...)
What are you doing for YOU today???
I know man you are so right!!!! It's hard after almost 7 months being consumed with thoughts of it all....Marriage, OW, kids, finances, whats he doing all of it! Its like you have mentally do a shift. I am trying to shift.
I am now cleaning up, and gonna go to church later for mid week.
Cleaning is therapeutic when it needs to be. LOL
Cleaning is therapeutic when it needs to be. LOL
Then you're welcome at my house anytime.
I don't think it hurts to be prepared in case he tries to break PB in person.
When there is visitation, have the kids ready and send them out the door before he can get out of the car. If you have any problems, find a friend that can make the exchange for you.
When there is not visitation, don't open the door.
Should he "bump" into you out and about, above all be polite. If it's not possible to dodge him entirely, go ahead and acknowledge him briefly and distantly, and move on.
(BTW, this is based on what SH told my friend when there were going to be several unavoidable meetings with the WS during PB. No flirting or anything like that, because you don't want to meet needs, just treat him as you would a stranger you had just met. That way you don't undo the good effects of your Plan A, and you also don't undo the effects of your PB, either, maybe just a small hit that's better the the alternative of being rude.)
And you can always call a friend really quick for moral support if you need it.
I don't tell you this to worry you, and hopefully you'll never need to think about it again. But I would hate to see him show up, and you feel upset and panicked because you don't know what to do.
So just relax: no matter what comes along, you have a plan.
Thank you, thank you, thank you , thank you guys!
That's good information cuz i really didn't know what to do. I am going to have DS10 ready at 3PM-that's should he decide to show. He may be way to mad to even come we'll see.
I have a plan....or least I'm finna trying to follow one! Not really much for me to do now you guys are all doing it. {{{whew}}}....
As expected, he did not come to visit DS10. DS10 was a little disappointed as dad mentioned he wanted to visit yesterday when he was in the general area. I told DS10 don't worry, he loves you and is probably still a little upset with me about not wanting to talk to him right now. That's the hard part of all of this. The stinking damage it does to the kids.
DS10 tells me last night that Dad doesn't love me because he would be here and he wouldn't have left us. I have reassured him from the start of this that no of this is his fault. I told him this has nothing to do with you daddy loves you a lot. This is a mom and dad problem not a dad and DS10 problem.
I guess after a week or two of this I am hoping H will go along with Plan B or come home, of course I am ready for the long haul.
Gotta go get ready to lead worship tonight, glad I have something to do for me and DS10. DD17 is babysitting for the evening, but I don't worry about her so much. She wants me to dump dad, and divorce him so our lives aren't rotating around him. Guess that's where Plan B will help us all.
Back later......
It's going to settle down one way or another before too long.
Communication may wind up being lopsided, but that's fine. His choice.
So glad you got that over with for today; one less thing to think about. Stay the course - ya doin good!
It's going to settle down one way or another before too long.
Communication may wind up being lopsided, but that's fine. His choice.
So glad you got that over with for today; one less thing to think about. Stay the course - ya doin good!
What communication?
Child-related messages to and from you and him, via the mediators. Nothing you have to worry about, and if you send a msg and don't get a response, not your problemo.
End of day 4! No contact still secure. H has not tried to break my no contact so that's good.
Trying to stay busy. Might take a salsa class tonight if I can get DD17 to pick up DS10 from football practice and watch him for a few.
Have moments of too much thinking about H, but quickly try to switch my thoughts and stay busy.
I can't believe Thanksgiving is in a week! Don't feel horrible that H might not be there, at least right now. Think the kids and I are gonna do some fun stuff. Think I might sit down with them and plan out what we all want to do that day.
Off to bed....I'm pooped!
OT - does your son like mazes?
One of my biggers does and he is around your son's age.
I found these online - boy are they a mind twister:
aMAZEing art I'm working on the statue of Zeus and am about halfway done.
Leo and I sit and do them together.
It's one of the few things he WILL sit still for (seein how he is another Dervish).
Cleaning is therapeutic when it needs to be. LOL
For anyone wanting some heavy duty, hard core therapy, please call, email or PM me immediately!!! Several slots available but book early - this pre-Christmas special won't last forever!!!!
Just checking in...quiet so far today. Feeling okay.
Today is the 1st day of home school with DS10. He has begged me for years to home school but I just never felt right about it since social skills are very important to me. But I felt finally like it would be an okay time. Socially he is great. With all that he has been through because of the A and his dad leaving and moving in with OW, I think he just needs this right now. The curriculum is Christian based so that's really great!
DS10 seems to have a little bit of set backs again with H being suddenly gone. DS10 seemed much more confident and settled having H around the 4 days a week during Plan A. He had slept in his bed for almost 3 weeks and now the last several days have been back in my bed again. Going to try to at least get him to sleep in his bed several nights a week to keep the progress of him conquering his anxiety brought on by all this.
But today we're all doing okay. We're planning what we want to do on Thanksgiving. So far we're gonna have a baking party the night before Thanksgiving and make a bunch of goodies. So far we've decided on buckeye balls, peanut butter cookies and rice crispy treats. On Thanksgiving day we've decided to decorate the tree, inside the house and outside the house, take the doggies behind the house for a walk(my back yard is against a park), possibly go to the movies, play board games, and rent classic Christmas movies we've never seen and watch them while we pile lots of blankets and pillows up on the floor to make a snugly spot for us.
I want to have the best time on Thanksgiving with the kids they deserve it. If I am upset I will save it for my shower time. At night before I go to sleep I try and see myself having fun and enjoying the day, guess what it helps and I start to actually feel excited about it. I know life is big and I want to fight to not have my joy hinge on whether or not H is here...plus who wants to share Thanksgiving with someone who lives in Fogaria, eats fog cake and turkey ramen, dresses in linens of fog....No thanks I think I can have more fun with out it....Anyways off to help DS10 with school. I hear his teacher rocks! LOL
Thanks guys!
I hear his teacher rocks!
I know I'm a fan!
I hear his teacher rocks!
I know I'm a fan!
Me too!
I hear his teacher rocks!
I know I'm a fan!
Me too!
Me three!
The day was very quiet, at least on H's end LOL.
1st day of home school with DS10 went good.
I picked up DS10 from football practice at 7:30, fed him and we decided to get in the jacuzzi since they worked the boys so hard for this playoff game Saturday.
I brought the phone with us because H usually calls DS10 about 8:30 ish and I didn't want him to miss his only contact with dad.
As scheduled he called and I handed the phone straight to DS10. H asks what he was doing and DS10 says me and mommy are in the jacuzzi relaxing and they talk for about 5 minutes then I can tell that H asked DS10 if I there with him he says yes. The H tells DS10 to tell me hello
So DS10 says dad says hello. I look at my son and I don't say a word and i nod. They talk for a few more minutes and then hang up.
I then say DS10 this is not your fault but if daddy says tell mom hello again just say ok I'll tell her. I guess that was a boundary tester. But now I'm like hey I'ze gotz nuttin ta say ta ya till yur funky covered in frosting cake eating butt leaves the skanky wart ridden Sea Hag Toad.
Pep, Neak or Kimmy check the email.
Anyways relaxed from the jacuzzi, think I'll have a lil wine and watch Walle with my son. Feeling determined at least for the moment.
Good for you. Shame on Wh for using a kid to test boundries! Ugh. I guess that's the least of the list of things that WH has done.
About the home schoolin'. Where do you get your curriculum from?
Does your state have any standardised testing? In Michigan, we have the MEAP for the 6th, 8th and 11th graders.
--just wondering.
Why does he want HS so badly?
Well, it sounds like you have your stuff together. GFY goodforyou.
here is a hammer because this icon is cute. :twobyfour:
Suggestion: Since WH is currently low enough to use a 10yo to try and break your boundaries, simply don't be present for phone calls. Hand the phone to DS and go somewhere else, even if you're somewhere lovely like the jacuzzi...sigh...
Yeah maybe next time I'll wait til after the call to get in jacuzzi. But from now on I'll be sure I'm not in the area when they are talking.
Barbiecat, DS10 has experienced a lot of anxiety about the A and his dad living with the other woman. We have had to get him into therapy and he slept in my bed for 5 months. We had a pretty good family before, pretty close. So the A was a shock to everyone, completely out of character for H. He lost his mind. So anyways, it hit DS10 very hard as we had no clues. So he wanted to home school. He is adjusted better than after discovery and while we were in Plan A he slept in his be almost 3 weeks. We had a few days of set backs after Plan B started but last night he was in his bed so probably was another adjustment thing again.
Anyways off to work on school stuff with son....
Just wondering how many of you guys who went into Plan B, had H stop visiting the kids or at least slowed down in visits.
Doesn't look like H is going to visit today, I could be wrong but it's getting later.
Tomorrow will be 1 week he hasn't seen son. He has called several times so I guess I shouldn't complain but It pisses me off.
My son has been through enough and soon he'll get tired and notice his dad isn't visiting.
I feel like DS10 maybe got his hopes up during Plan A, I couldn't say anything other than DS10 I can't do this forever, sharing daddy hurts me. But I think in his little mind he thought maybe daddy was thinking about coming home and now that freakin jerk hasn't visited him in 6 days. Uggggg.
I feel pissed and a little down this afternoon. {{{{Sigh}}}}
T2L
FWIW Flick sent a postcard to the girls during PB, which he later admitted doing just to annoy me. He never called or made arrangments to see them.
Yes DS10 probably did get his hopes up, its hard not to when Plan A goes so well. The hurt your son is feeling is a consequence WH will have to work on himself. Waywards care not for anyone but themselves. When the fog clears, the reality of their actions is crushing.
Hang in there, it doesn get better, a little bit every day.
(((T2L)))
Hugs to both you and D10. It's probably 6pm where you are right now. I hope WH did the right things and came to see D10.
My PB was very short lived, 2 weeks to be exact. My WH went out of his way to call the boys daily, take them out to dinner with FIL and go to movies, bowling etc. I wish all waywards would be more like mine when it comes to the kids.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks guys, try to stay busy but even then its still pretty hard.
I know it's supposed to be hard on WS but how come it feels worse on us?!?!?!
DS10 has a playoff game tomorrow. H told DS10 on their goodnight phone call that he was going to try to be there, so I'm really kinda upset that I cannot go see him play.
I mean I'm the one who signed him up, spent the 2 hours many times a week lugging him to practice, going to all the games before H started going and I have to miss the game and it could be the last if they lose.....Ok I vented.
Tomorrow is 1 week. When again am I supposed to start feeling better???
As sick and mean as it sounds I really hope he suffers on Thanksgiving. :gobblegobble: I really really do.
I mean IDK but by him trying to say hello to me yesterday, it triggered anger in me.
I feel like ya know what a-hole I have nothing more to say to you. There is nothing more that needs to be said and I don't want to hear your stupid idiotic hellos like that's supposed to make things better....duh what planet are you from??? I feel completely irritable and slightly angry.
And I feel complete pissed off that, that this freaking man is flaking on our son when he knows exactly what it has done to him and all the struggles he is going through. Its like he makes this stupid call at night for 5 minutes to ease his retarded conscience and like what does he think he's a hero?
(GAG is that vomit I taste in my mouth?) He was here 4 times a week in Plan A, I mean God forbid he try and visit him even though I don't want to see him. UGGGGGGGGG
Ok I am hoping that this anger and irritation is normal after 6 days.
Sorry I'm barfing all over the place, I know I sound yucky, I don't even like feeling like this. I just needed to spew.....
Hang in there T2L.
You are so brave and strong and you are standing up for what you deserve.
You are making a stand for what you deserve so fight on.
I am wallowing in a miserable plan A effort and contemplating plan B with a disfunctional WH to say the least.
Stay strong and just focus on your happiness. Take another salsa class, jump in the jacuzzi and get into the things you love!
We're all here with you.
Even if it often takes a little longer typically for the anger to set in, you've been through more than most people to arrive at where you are now.
Anger is fine and good, but just keep focused on other things, and keep DS focused on other things, as well. In fact, I would tell DS you'll have ice cream (or whatever!) for him no matter whether he wins or loses.
One day at a time.....
DS10 has a playoff game tomorrow. H told DS10 on their goodnight phone call that he was going to try to be there, so I'm really kinda upset that I cannot go see him play.
I'm thinking there's a strong possibility that WH won't show at the game. He hasn't visited all week and now he's going to "try" to be there?
If, in fact, WH doesn't show your son is going to be quite disappointed and you're going to be angry. Try to be honest and objective with your son, letting him know that you understand his feelings and that it makes you angry too, but don't rant or vent around DS10 (not that I think you would).
If DS10 asks why WH didn't show, tell him you don't know, that's a question WH will have to answer.
The reason I mention these things is when I was separated from my XH, my STBX would fail to show and fail to follow through on commitments. This was nothing new, but while we were married I used to try to explain to the kids "Well he's working" or "He is just too tired now because of XYZ". I had to learn to quit protecting him.
Maybe WH will show - that would be GREAT. Maybe he hasn't been to the house to visit because he's too sad, or too angry, or too stubborn, or he thinks he's "making you suffer". Maybe he's waiting on the game as a good chance to visit. I hope so.
But you need to be prepared that he might not, just in case.
ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!
So here I am sitting at home trying to keep in touch with DD17 on her cell, about whats going on at the game.
So DD17 calls him because DS10 had so much anxiety about going today and me missing it he almost refused to go and cried. I told him DD17 would be there but its not momma.
I said after the game we'll go get candy he said ok but was very upset.
So and hour into the game DD17 calls H to see if he's going and he of course if not because he's not playing my stupid [censored] games. What freaking games, I a m just refusing to talk to him!!! B@st@rd!!!! Ok sorry, I'll get it together. Myabe I'm PMS'ing I can't figure out what my problem is. I guess momma bear is pissed at Papa bear for messing with my BABIES!!!!
@#$%^*^&*%#$!#$@@@$$%%^$#%$%@#$^#&$^*
Yes I am aware I probably shouldn't have heard that but I could care less because at least now I can run off to see the 2nd half and see the big smile on DS10 lovely face.
Right now I HATE H! Its a good thing he doesn't hear from me because right now I wanna open up a can of whoop a$s and LB his a$s on fire!
Ok I'm off to see the game....
Glad you are going to the game. I suggest you go from now on. Let hubby stay on the back burner. If he shows up, don't engage with him. But I think your son needs you to be there.
And the fact that your husband is "not going to play your game" is a good sign. If he was too far gone, he would welcome the no contact.
They won! They broke a record today for the league. They are the only team within this league to make it to the playoffs this season and the only team ever to make it this far! I was so happy to be able to be there.
As soon as I got there I made sure to locate son on the side line. He saw me and smiled and waved. Ahhhhh, I don't about ya'll but how these lame WS's abandon their own kids is beyond me, the second I see my kids faces, I melt. Nothing could ever keep me away.
Yeah think I'll go to the next game as it may be away. I may just go sit on the opposing side possibly.
I truly don't want to see him or him to see me, sorry but he doesn't deserve it! I don't even want to meet his #5 need of physical attractiveness. LOL but I'm serious. OW is out of shape triple D boobies with a belly that sticks out as far as her ta tas. Ick!
Yeah I guess its a good sign, he's pissed. Good! Join the club jerk.
Well on the way home from the game DD17 updated dad on score and the record they broke he said he wants to come see them at 3:30, un-freaking believable. It wasn't ran by my mediators as H and DD17 were talking and he said he wanted to come see her. I told DS10 to go to as he seems to be a little more settled when he sees his dad and less of rejection, anger or anxiety issues to deal with.
So DD17 sure dad come visit me. H then says well how do i do that. He says call the house when you are here and we will come out.
So as of now they are going to the park adjoining the back of my house. All doors will be locked and I refuse to see him, so no worries I am not breaking the no contact.
I feel better that I got to see the game, but still gotta go get him the candy I used to bribe him to get to the game....LOL. It was worth it.
Well be back later to let you know if he tries to come to the door, or boundary break.....
Hang tight and stay dark. It is good that you will be gone when hubby comes. I'm sure he will try to test you.
The main thing is not to let him engage you. Don't argue or talk to him. Often waywards will start trying to talk about something urgent with the kids, but then move onto relationship talk. Don't fall for that. If you get stuck, just refer him to your Plan B letter, like a broken record.
I know it's supposed to be hard on WS but how come it feels worse on us?!?!?!
BECAUSE you have a functioning conscience and think of others ... not just yourself :gobblegobble:
T2L,
Congrats on DD10's game. I am sure you are a very proud mama, and he is a very happy son to see his mom at the game.
Sitting on the opposing side sounds like a good future plan. That way you can be there for DD10 and not worry about WH. Grab a cool baseball cap and sunglasses and go incognito!
Hope he didn't try to break NC when the kids came home tonight.
Beam
Ok he left no boundary testing. Played behind the house at the park with kids and dogs for about 2 hours. Kids said they had a good time.
Kids said H had said I wish we could be together for Thanksgiving. DD17 says I do to. Then he tells DD17 well this strategy your mom is using to try and get me home is not working it's only making it worse. Then he tells her well even if I do come home a lot has to change in your mom. OMG OMG OMG! How does a freaking person who cheated on his wife, betrayed her, broke the marriage covenant and moved in the the nasty skank sit here and point the finger at me and say I need to change. I mean yeah I needed fine tuning but I really think I did way to much for this bloody dude! I mean his mood controlled the entire house. I always tippie toed around and even made sure the kids tippie toed so dad wouldn't be irritated. He was never physically abusive ever but his mood controlled the atmosphere of the house and I tried always to make him happy but couildn't. Then he tells DD17 that ya know your mom is just positive and happy go lucky and I'm just not that way. WTF!!!! I'm sorry I guess I should change and be a negative idiot!
I know I should have stopped DD17 from telling me and am fully aware that I am not supposed to hear any of it to protect myself but let's be serious anyone would want to know a little bit.
Anyways kinda made me nervous that he used the word strategy. God I sure hope he hasn't snooped around and found SAA. He knows I love reading and am an information nut. That would be bad wouldn't it if he found the book.
So thats the update for tonight.....Don't think much is going to happen tomorrow he's not visiting the kids should be a quiet day.......Officially 1 week completed of Plan B and I'm still alive, ticked, but alive...LOL
Well, he wouldn't be making comments like that if it wasn't working, right? You're doing great! And I would have wanted to know what he did the first time anyway. You can ask the kids not to tell you from now on; they'll want to help you.
Flick knew and understood plan B before I went into it, in fact I had given him a copy of the letter just before, and he took my copy of SAA to England when he went.
DOn't worry about the comment about you needing to change, he has already seen your willingness to make the changes you need to, he's just putting a dig in, hoping you'll get to hear about it. Its hard but try not to talk about him with the kids. Yes I do know that is alot harder than it sounds
Your doing great, and honestly, when I was in PB, I preferred the angry days to the sad ones...
T2L, hang in there! You inspire me as I look towards my own Plan B.
I totally get how confused you are that he could go without the kids for any length of time! I had no kids one night this week (just at home -- not gone for business) and I about lost it!
I think our kids know when we feel that strongly for them, even tho WS's get to show up and have the fun -- and then go.
Keep it up -- you are an inspiration! I'll bet your daughter is so proud of you, too -- she sounds amazingly strong!
My 12 year old is totally struggling with spending anytime with WH and is very angry with him. Do you or your daughter have any advice for a very pissed, very bright 12 year-old (betrayed daughter?)
Take care!
BestFriend439
I'm sure your intermediary team will box his ears for using a 17 yr old child to deliver a poison contemptible message and that at the rate he's going he's going to be enjoying turkey raman for thanksgiving, deservedly so.
In the mean time, sharpen up. You need to gently tell your daughter you're sorry she was used by her father this way. That she doesn't have to deliver any more messages for him - he has to use the intermediary for that kind of trash!
BF439,
Awe that's very sweet of you, but I don't feel like an inspiration I feel like my mentors and those who help me here are inspirations truly!My DD17 is quite strong, and truly I could not force anything on her. They kinda go through the natural time of things. I tried to get her to counseling and that made things worse as she felt she was not crazy so I let her work things out in her time. The 1st month we all cut him off as he was nuts!
Then we talked to him about the 3-4 month and cut off again and the 4-5month and then began Plan A Oct 3 which was beginning of Plan A. In fact ya'll tomorrow is 7 months since my life changed and I found out. I never even saw my self making it this far. But here I am. Not sure I am playing with a full deck, LOL, but none the less I am relatively ok and I have my babies and the whole world could pass away and all I need is them.
At the start of this and even sometimes now, DS10 says thank you mom for not going crazy and leaving us. I say nothing can ever tear me away from you DS10 they would have to kill me and thats not gonna happen so don't worry I will be here for you. And I think that its really really important to remind them a few times that this is not their fault because children have a tendency to blame themselves and that's even if you remind them, so I would mention it every so often. You'll know if DD12 seems like she needs more help(counseling) your her mom and no one knows better than you. But ya know what time is the best thing for the kids-maybe not for us but ya know the saying time heals all things? Well its especially true for kids, on top of the fact that kids are 10 times more forgiving than adults and I think at some point she'll get there. I would tell my son that dad loves you and he would question yeah right mom how could he when he left me. I would say son this is not your fault and dad didn't leave you he left me, this is a mom and dad problem not a DS10 and dad problem. Then I would explain to DS10 how DS10 does things like disobey mom but he would still love me and how its possible to do things that are bad and hurtful to mom but he still loved me and then related that to dad. I think it helped. Time, is the best advice for DD12.
DD17 is strong so full of wisdom,but since she has always been a lil bit of a rebel I taught her the proverbs in the bible which actually impart wisdom to them, BUT I taught her the proverbs but In terms where she didn't feel like I was teaching her the bible. Like I would say what you do comes back to you, then when she was about 16 I explained what I meant was sewing and reaping. But truly the stuff that comes out of her mouth at 17 cracks me up, out of the mouth of babes God uses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise...hilarious.
So your going to Plan B sometime soon sounds like. Well I think the thing that drove it home for me and might help you is remember that Plan A should not be looked at as a lifestyle. These WS's think were gonna do this forever. Well sorry but I am not going to live like this. Its for a purpose and time. Plan A strong so when you go to B you actually can take comfort when, days like this for me ya wanna go crazy, you can remind yourself you did everything possible to make a go at this and it comforts you while in Plan B if there is any comfort, but I know that time is going to help me too. Hope something i just rambled about was of some help. Thanks for popping in......
Kayla
Well I was kinda hoping they would run out of turkey ramen so he would have to eat chili or shrimp ramen for Thanksgiving..LOLOLOLOL....yeah I did tell DD17 hey I'm really sorry that you have been put in the middle of this you are still a kid just a bit and you shouldn't be hearing this stuff. I don't want you to have the stress.
I'm not sure if the IM's will say anything to him, kinda hope not cuz I really want him to eventually use them and it may push him away. He looks at it as in his words as his wife acting like his mother and its very unattractive, so if a correction is sent about his conversations with DD17 it will only back fire, IMHO. I think the best bet is to act as if I didn't even hear it cuz I'm in Plan B. He'll get even madder if he gets no response cuz he always expects a response from me or an apology and he's getting nothing not even from DD17 comments. No response ha haha ah ah ahaha ha ha ha....No response how ya like them apples! I keep the IM's communications simple, visitation with DS10. I figure maybe this lil part of IM'ing he may take then I can move to other things but for now I just want him to get contact about DS10.
But DD17 and H have always been really close in fact and would always talk about everything under the sun every night at bedtime, sometimes even poke fun at me. But great thing now is DD17 see's why H would poke fun at me.
I just told her to try not to listen to him when he says these things.
I don't know if he'll ever use the IM's but I keep sending the visitation availability for DS10 with no expectation of an answer cuz i know what he said to my friend who was the 1st IM so I can only imagine what the gurls heard...LOLOL. Yikes glad I'm not you guys.
Right now I am going to expect him to be angry and be glad since apparently this is good and better than indifference.
And as my Lil darling doggie says anger is better than the sad days. I hate the sad days. I'd rather have the anger it keeps me more determined to give strong Plan B.
I have not seen or talked to him in 7 whole days, not a text, not a phone cal and not email. Whooo Hooo...I guess....LOL
You are doing fine. Just keep remembering not to have contact so you protect your heart. Let the kids know that you don't want to hear anything about hubby. Hard, but necessary.
Once he realizes that you are going to stick to your plan, it should get easier.
And remember your garden - you have planted and water the seeds, now trust that it will grow.
Your DD is a big Achilles heel in this thing. We're going to have to do some brainstorming on that. I'll get back to you when I think of something.
Glad you got to go to the game, and your kids got a visit, lame and disrespectful as it was to you.
And no, we won't box his ears, tempting though it might be.
And no, we won't box his ears, tempting though it might be.
We are not boxing any ears - we are unemotional and strictly business
Pep
Mere filters, not cranial clobberers.
Mere filters, not cranial clobberers.
the emotional
current flows one way only - and it is NOT flowing from your ever-ready most serene mediators
Ok ya'll, so update for all ya readers.
Apparently H is being resistant(an absolute rage filled idiot)
oh sorry i forgot to turn off my translator..LOLOL.
My IM's have told me nothing but I do know my H as I have been with him since I was 14 so truly I know him better than he knows himself. So he's doesn't want email so I am trying to come up with a visitation schedule for DS10 that is set in stone so that it may be postal mailed to him by the IM's.
Man it's really hard to not doubt
yourself and feel like your making things worse by the mediators. {{{{Sigh}}}} I mean I guess how much worse can it get right he lives with OW. LOL. But none the less I feel like I am probably pissing him off to no end and sealing my doom or chance of reconciling by pushing the IM's.
I know him he's a very private person about his business, so I know he probably feels I am violating his privacy by having people contact him about the kids. I mean I really need to pass more information (finances etc) but there is no way I feel I can do it. Is there anyone out there or knows someone who was in Plan B and their spouse was a angry jerk but they still reconciled?
Ok just got back from church and I'm gonna go take a quick nap since the kids ran to the park with the dogs....I need to rest my brain....Gonna work on the schedule guys after the nap....
Hi T2L
Having people whom your WH has never met does protect his privacy in a way. They aren't in his circle of friends, they aren't from his workplace, and they aren't family. He, OTOH, has violated the sanctity of your M and the very foundation of your family by having his A and moving in with the OW.
This is a boundary that you have put in place to protect the love you have for him from evaporating completely. You have "given" him what he wanted-the OW to meet all his needs. He is finding out just how much this choice will cost him if he continues in his A.
He is simply acting like a petulant teenager who has been told that he doesn't get privileges if he doesn't own up to his responsibilities and is basically throwing a hissy fit.
Hopefully he will become a grown-up again soon and figure it out.
Hang in there-for the sake of your family and the love you still have for him.
Johnstwin is exactly right. HE WANTS MORE CAKE AND HE WANTS IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
You have given him his freedom, won't be meddling in his life and he can do his own thing. Let him reap the consequences of his choices.
I think that is in the bible somewhere.............
I think that is in the bible somewhere.............
:happythanksgiving:
I would also like to point out that you first tried mediators that you both know and could trust.
He opted out of that, and you had to pick someone stronger because of his bullying. He didn't know the new IM's...oh well, he created that problem entirely. It's not on you at all. He didn't appreciate how good he had it before, and now he's stuck with da Pepster.
Day 8 done, I made it. I feel okay. Feeling a bit stronger today. Actually starting to feel like even if he did come home that if he doesn't agree to my conditions that its now my choice, and my choice is buh-bye LOLOLOL.
I've already lost the marriage to the affair so why in the heck should I settle at this point. Either he wants it or doesn't. Each day just a teeny tiny bit of fear leaves and its good because for 20 years I had nightmares that he would cheat on me, he knew about them and for 20 years I tried everything in my power to be a good wife(yes I needed fine tuning and SAA has helped me) but I'm done with that. Yes I miss him and really really want my marriage back. We had many many good times. This man, I do not know, parts of him I have experienced from time to time but that's not the person I knew. HE used to have integrity, whit and humor, he made me and the kids feel safe, he was a good man for the most part-except for his moodiness(really i think depression not sure) that kicked in a few days a week.
My 19 year anniversary is in 16 days, so instead of crying I sent an email to about 10 girls inviting them to go have sushi and celebrate it with me. I am not hanging out here that night to cry! I'm gonna go have fun! Think I will have someone drive so I can have and extra glass of wine!
Anyways on to week 2 ya'll.....{{{hugs to everyone}}}
Have a Tako for me, stay out of the Saki...
I am watching (reading) you go through new emotions.
Welcome them. Learn from them.
The book that saved my life is called "The Dance of Anger". It has been around about 20++ years, and it shows you how your anger, tho normal and an natural indication to you that something is wrong--anger can also be a strong poison (if not acknowledged and handled right)
I think it may help you too.
And it would be a great book for D17. Very positive.
Just dropping in to say I'm alive! I am doing fine. Had to come up with the visitation for DS10 so the IM's could postal mail it to him.
Otherwise I feel fine and determined. Everyone here is so awesome, helps keep me focused and calm.
I really feel like now if he ever does get it and come back then I truly have the choice that the power is no longer with him, which it has been for very long but I never saw it that was as he called me controlling.
I am getting more comfortable with the fact that H is probably really mad, although no one has told me, I know him. I guess right now maybe he needs to be angry, maybe it'll knock some sense in his head. I am really glad he is going to be alone during the holidays too, nice time to think(suffer)LOL so he can see what life is gonna be like if he don't get his crap together.
Anyways I'm doing well for today. Gearing up for Thanksgiving..... :happythanksgiving:
What are you having for Thanksgiving dinner?
Well I'm not having Turkey Ramen that's for sure.
Gonna make turkey and stuffing, fresh cranberries, green bean casserole but with fresh green beans not canned, garlic mashed potatoes, rolls, gravy, pumpkin and apple pie, then on Wednesday we are baking rice crispy treats, buckeye balls and peanut butter cookies. I guess that probably sounds like a lot for just us but who cares leftovers are the bomb!
How bout yous?
Me - turkey, mashed potatoes, stuffing, gravy, green bean casserole, candied sweet potatoes, cranberries, rolls, deviled eggs, fruit salad, green salad, and GOAT.
The goat is for my roommates and neighbors - they are hispanic and love it. I HATE it, especially the smell...............
YIKES!!!! Goat! Lamb, yes goat no!
So I'm gonna try and go see lildoggie in March when she comes to the states-at least that's my goal!
Ya hear that my lildoggie! Whooo hoooo! i can't wait!
So who's gonna be thur!!!!
I might be there in March. My mom lives in Seattle and is very ill. Even mom has heard of the firefighters climbing the stairs of the building for charity.
Yeah then if all goes well it'll be great to thank you in person!
Seattle here we come, lildoggie here we come!!!!
Sorry to hear about your mom.
Bring your umbrellas!
Queenie and johnstwin will be there to greet you and show you the sights. Seattle is our "hometown" so-to-speak.
Hope to see lots of MB' folk in March in Seattle, the rainy city...oops! I think the official slogan is The Emerald City.
(Because it's so green from all the rain)
Well I'm not having Turkey Ramen that's for sure.
Gonna make turkey and stuffing, fresh cranberries, green bean casserole but with fresh green beans not canned, garlic mashed potatoes, rolls, gravy, pumpkin and apple pie, then on Wednesday we are baking rice crispy treats, buckeye balls and peanut butter cookies. I guess that probably sounds like a lot for just us but who cares leftovers are the bomb!
How bout yous?
You eat all that????
and GOAT.
The goat is for my roommates and neighbors - they are hispanic and love it. I HATE it, especially the smell...............
Goat is ok. If it moves, eat it
I have an irish friend that eats horse every time she goes back for a holiday
Yeah then if all goes well it'll be great to thank you in person!
Seattle here we come, lildoggie here we come!!!!
Hey B, sorry to hear about your mum.
Flick is wavering about us coming, economic down turn and all that. Maybe I'll just come by myself
I cant wait to get to meet everyone, I have been so envious of the way ya'll can just go and meet up.
Wish Ayane could come too.
Ok we need Jayne and Dealean too!
I got a personal invite!!! Y'all like me! Y'all really like me!!!
I'd love to come. It depends on the school schedule, but I can try.
(and yes, that menu sounds just about right... plus my over-achieving self usually adds some non-traditional (at least for my family) stuff like butternut squash soup and something new from epicurious.com.)
ETA: I didn't mean that to sound one-up-like. I should add that at least 2 of those dishes prolly end up with mistakes or don't get finished until the next day.
Silly woman, corse we like you, you is da bomb
Well really why don't we turn it into lildoggies MB reunion!
Anyone one else game???
I hear Seattle is lovely in March or is it the coffee in Seattle is lovely in March??? LOL
Neak?
Pep?
Seattle really is lovely, even tho it rains quite a lot.
I lived there for 18 years and never got tired of the views there. So many lovely mountains, and the Puget Sound has a unique beauty that I will always miss.
I get to look at the Blue Mountains now. Quite lovely in their own way.
You will all have a lovely time there. Just take a LOT of extra time to get where you need to be. The traffic is terrible. THAT I do not miss. LOL.
Don't forget your umbrella!!
Love in Christ,
Miss M
H just called and talked to DD17 while I was in shower. DD17 banged on the door and says dad wants to come visit.
As of this point he refuses to talk to IM's via email so my awesome threesome Pep, Neak and Delean are postal mailing him visitation and financial stuff. He is getting the information but will not respond. He wants nothing ot do with the mediators, but none the less I am still sending information though them.
So I said fine he can come visit you all again at the park behind the house. Told them all to shut the garage as he is not welcome here and that DS10 must be back by 4:30.
I would say the only thing bad about his refusal of responding to IM's is that he can call like that. I don't really want to deny the visit as the kids were free and DS10 needs to see his dad......whatever....water off a ducks back.
No worries he ain't gonna see me I'll lock the doors behind the kids and not answer my phone.
Update in a little if there is any...
Stay dark, you are doing fine. Thanksgiving Day Top Ramen is only two days away. He may get very desperate.
Well he visited at the park and then decided he wanted to take DS10 to practice, which is fun for DS10 and good for me. NO break or boundary testing, stayed dark. Personally don't even think Thanksgiving is even going to phase him. Truthfully he needs to be broken, humbled and repentant, and only God can do that. I can't nor can anyone else. At this point I don't even know how much of the affair is the reason anymore, I truly think it's his pride and its all at me and against me and cannot understand it. Whateva!
Apparently he stayed with son during practice and is going to bring him home....Glad for DS10...just hard when you know for the last 7 months you have been both parents to you kids and they want to swoop in and visit and act like some great hero.
DD17 said she had good visit with her dad, said dad said he can't believe how fast the year has went and DD17 says yeah I know and you've been gone for most of it. Wanna hear his lame a$s response, oh I haven't been gone I've been on vacation. Disgusting pig! How do you look in your daughters face and say that? Like what you've been vacationing from being a father?
I told DD17 if he asks about me which he does every time he calls them or sees them that her response should be IDK. If he asks what I'm doing, how I'm doing or where I'm at to say IDK.
She said he asked(again) whats mom doing, she says IDK, then he asks if I am listening to worship music(mocking) she says IDK, he asks If I am getting ready for thanksgiving and she responds IDK so I think he finally got his answer.
Trying to stay busy, have hard moments but my resolve ist getting stronger as I will no longer accept what I have lived under and things will have to change. After talking to Delean I think I'm going to make him complete my conditions before he comes home. there are only 6 and they are doable. I do not want him home and moved in and then I can't get him to them. Sorry, not happening. Well gonna go to target to get Christmas ornaments so I am not home when he gets here so his lil brain can fry wondering......
It is SO hard for your DD being caught in this, but hurray for her for these first difficult attempts to protect you and your darkness.
No matter how much she may want to, she can't fix this. She has to surrender the control to you and trust you to do what's best. This is a start toward getting some control of the information hemorrhage (both directions) through the children.
Stay strong, sis. All is well.
Just popping in. Not much going on here. Pretty quiet today, at least for now.
Gonna head to church tonight with DS10 and then gonna come home and bake goodies with the kids.
Staying as busy as I can. Hope ya'll have a relaxing evening.
Muah
:happythanksgiving:
Then you are doing a great Plan B. When you are doing a good, dark Plan B, there is nothing to report. It takes some getting used to, but you are doing fine.
That was the biggest problem I had with Plan B. After months of all kinds of action, nothing happened.
Yeah feels weird that's for sure. So quiet, not sure that I like it. Feels like nothing is moving forward but i guess it beats WS bull sh1t!
Emotionally I guess I'm okay, have moments of sadness but try to push my way though them. Trying to stay focused for the kids.
If I'm feeling sad in the morning I'll just allow myself to cry in the shower where the kids can't see because I want the kids to have as good as can be Thanksgiving.
I was wondering how you were doing. Hope you have a peaceful, Ramen-free Thanksgiving.
T2L,
Here is hoping that you have a blessed and VERY HAPPY Thanksgiving! :happythanksgiving:
Savor your :gobblegobble: and enjoy every minute of it.
Turkey Ramen for him? Uhhh, ummmmm..........GOOD!
Beam
How-day! Kids and I just winding up our Thanksgiving baking. We had a nice time. I came home from church and the kids had decorated half the tree and house. It looked great. Then we all finished up decorating the Christmas tree. We always set up the tree on Thanksgiving.
H did not call the kids all day. Think he's having a pity party. He just sent DD17 some random texts. DD17 was particularly feisty and sends him a bragging texts of all the goodies we were making and his answer was, have fun. He never said goodnight and didn't even make his nightly call to DS10-pathetic! He's going to take out his anger of me on his son...ARGGGGGG! I hope he burns his lip on his Turkey ramen!
Anyways we had a fun evening and now were gonna taste test all our sweets and its midnight.
Hope ya all have a great Thanksgiving....letcha know how it goes. Hopefully it will be uneventful. :gobblegobble:
:happythanksgiving:
Be sure to thank God for all the work He is doing that you know NOTHING about.
LOLOLOL! Thanks, made me giggle. Am up and around and cooking already. Went to sleep thinking too much, but surprisingly I thought I would be really upset this morning as soon as I opened my eyes but I wasn't.
If the rest of the day goes this way, then were doing good!
Thank you Lord for all you are to me, and all you've given to me. I thank you for all the amazing people here you have sent to me to help and encourage me, thank you for my kids and church and church family, thank you for my health, thank you for the food, clothing and shelter you have provided me with, thank you for this great nation that though its in hard times I am blessed for being here, and thank you for doing a work in my H that I maybe cannot see(see Neakie pooh), let it be a deep work Lord and let it be quick(
) and give me grace to make it. AMENNNNNN!
Muah!
:gobblegobble: :happythanksgiving: :pumkin:
Well its almost 9PM Pacific time. I am pretty sad, as H never called or texted the kids today. Thought he would make the 8:30PM call but have heard nothing yet. Even last night we thought maybe H would call the kids or text good night. All he did was send a text to DD17 saying throw me some turkey. He never said good night to the kids.
How can a person do that? If he is angry at me for no contact why take it out on the kids. I mentioned to DS10 that his dad might call about 8:30 and he said he didn't care he didn't want to talk to him. DD17 says I am starting to not care about him because I realize he doesn't care about us. {{{Sigh}}}
I am hoping that this is a sign of anger and NOT anger that is turning to indifference.
Well its almost 9PM Pacific time. I am pretty sad, as H never called or texted the kids today.
I think he's playing "chicken" with you, to see who break's first.
Don't play the game.
BTW - I've been following your thread from the start. You've been doing GREAT. Your H's an idiot if he doesn't come back to the M.
I think he's playing "chicken" with you, to see who break's first.
Don't play the game.
BTW - I've been following your thread from the start. You've been doing GREAT. Your H's an idiot if he doesn't come back to the M.
MIM,
Awe thanks, I guess we can say we've concluded he is an idiot already LOL. Thanks for following my thread pop in anytime if have anything you think may help. It sure helps to hear that coming from a man, oddly enough.
I am not going to play his game and break the darkness. Still so hard.
Does anyone one if a spouse starts off as angry can they then turn indifferent?
Well DD17 finally got a text page from her dad saying "hope you had a good day", oh did I mention it was at 11PM?!?!?!?!? She didn't respond. Not even a hello or how was your day or I love you or tell DS10 anything....UGGGGG! I mean it was Thanksgiving for crying out loud, don't ignore your own kids.
Was talking with lildoggie and she was explaining some stuff about your love bank draining during Plan B, boy feels like mine is draining much more rapidly than it was in Plan A, any tips anyone?
Tomorrow is exactly 2 weeks in Plan B. Amazing how 1 person can be so selfish and ruin their own lives and drag an entire family with them and then turn it on the betrayed spouse and accuse them of being selfish and controlling. Go figure?!?!?
Was talking with lildoggie and she was explaining some stuff about your love bank draining during Plan B, boy feels like mine is draining much more rapidly than it was in Plan A, any tips anyone?
Stop giving waynerd a free pass to get inside your head.
Everytime thoughts about waynerd slip into your consciousness - do 10 jumping jacks while singing a song from a Disney movie (pick one).
You need to *freeze* his account!!! Plan B means you fill your life with activities, interests, things for you, do the things you always wanted to do, become the person you want to become...
What's your plan for today? Taking any salsa lessons???
Stop giving waynerd a free pass to get inside your head.
Everytime thoughts about waynerd slip into your consciousness - do 10 jumping jacks while singing a song from a Disney movie (pick one).
Ok I'll sing under the sea while doing girly push-ups, maybe the 2 for 1 will help. LOL
Ohhh,
so waynerd isn't way-hole, or waysterd? Glad you clarified...Ok sorry its that inner monologue sneaking into my conscious...ok I'm lying I'm fully thinking he is an a-hole and a b@$[censored]!
But hey on the bright side the push ups will help lift the tatas!
You need to *freeze* his account!!! Plan B means you fill your life with activities, interests, things for you, do the things you always wanted to do, become the person you want to become...
What's your plan for today? Taking any salsa lessons???
Oh freeze his account, I see that's why I was trying to burn it LMAO!
I know I Gotta focus more on me I feel my self starting to hate him.
I know I need to fill more on things I want to do, I just get swayed when he does crap to the kids. When he does then I get focused on him again and remember everything and start to drain the bank super hard and super fast.
Now I get to do it again for Christmas. Its hard there's only so much you can tell your kids when you can't figure out your self why he's ignoring them. The only thing I could think if was tell DS10 that daddy is not mad at you I'm sure he loves you he is just mad at mom so that's probably why he isn't calling.
I wonder truly if I am even going to make it. I wonder if I am even going to like him in a few months. Its a scary thought, I may actually hate the dude when the Holidays are over.
Yes, yes, PUSHUPS!!!!!!! You will learn to STOP thinking about him. He does what he does because he is a WH and that is what they do. It is better not to think about it.
Get busier. I got to the point whenever I thought of WH, I made my brain start thinking about what color to paint the kitchen.
I know it is much harder when he neglects his children. Hang in there. You can do this.
Neglecting the kids is the worst. I used to do the same with making sure the kids knew how much he loved them. With my 10 yr old DS though, I have also been making a point to let him realize that his dad is selfish. I dont come out and say it but I do let him know that it is not acceptable behavior for a father/husband. BTW you are doing awesome.
On Thanksgiving I told the kids that I would like nothing more than to have daddy here with us, but he is not here by his choice. I told them he chose this by not cutting off contact with OW and choosing the family. They have both known about her right from the beginning as he told all 3 of us. So I don't cover for him not being there.
Well it's about 9PM Pacific and H has not called DS10 for his 8:30. Now it seems he's not talking much to DD17 much either. This will be 3 days no contact with DS10. I know he took tomorrow(Saturday) off during plan A as he thought we would all still be talking. It hurts me that he is doing this to DS10 as he suffers enough already, and has been sleeping with me almost full time again. We had made so much progress during Plan A, almost 3 weeks in his own bed. I guess we'll get there again.
I am guessing he may try and show up to DS10's football game. Of course it got moved a 3rd time to a new location in which he has not been notified since he must have given my IM"s a bunch of crap and now the IM's are postal mailing information and I cannot get him the new location to the game that quickly. Oh well, his choice. Should be quite hilarious if he goes to the wrong place. I'm sure he'll blow another gasket. Thought about having DD17 tell him but why. HE could have this information given to him but he refuses so its his a**.
The game is 30 minutes away so since I don't know what he will do and we have established he won't call me in enough time like last time. So I am going to watch the game from the opposing side and if he wants to take the kids to eat after the game I will go home. I have explained to DS10 that I will take him to ice cream or something when he gets home that I won't be going to lunch. No worries going to stay dark. I don't even want to risk sitting on our side. Sure hope they have 2 sides, some high schools don't.
Cried a good 20 minutes in the shower today. Kinda mad at myself for breaking down. I hate breaking down. AT this point I go back and forth between anger and sadness.
Just tired. Wish this would all just go away. Hard thing is I've done enough reading that even if I decided right now that I'm done and want a divorce it doesn't end there. I know it won't be any shorter than waiting because I'll have to deal with this jerk for the rest of my life because of the kids, but believe me the thought crosses my mind.
I am fully aware that I am whining too! Tomorrow will be better.
Looking forward to DS10's game. After this game they are 2 games away from super bowl. If they lose tomorrow then the season is over. I'll let you all know how it goes....
G'night ya'll....
You'll be ok, whatever happens. You're strong and confident and an amazing mom.
Focus on you and the kids and find happiness every day.
Don't worry about the breakdowns, they happen. Focus on how to pick yourself back up.
Take care!
Of course you are going to cry and at times whine! You are going through one of the most difficult situations anyone ever goes through and I think most people don't even know how hard it is!
You are doing great with your plan and taking care of your kids. Hang in there and keep posting so we know how you are!
BF439
I cannot get him the new location to the game that quickly. Oh well, his choice.
We are having a IM huddle to discuss.
No worries for you! You are correct,
HIS CHOICE. :crosseyedcrazy:
Right. It is his choice. I wouldn't even worry about it. Go and enjoy the game. Good luck to your son's team.
Please respond to latest email question.
Thx
pep
Well DS10's team lost. Season is over. They played very well, the boys were so sad. I was so happy to be there and I got to relax since H was not there. I really enjoyed the game.
Big thanks to my Trio IM's today for hammering out some financial stuff. I so appreciate all your doing. Its hard enough to pass the information, especially financial but knowing you guys have it SO covered sure helps.
I guess H is going to visit the kids tomorrow at 4PM. He strangely sent a text to DD17 saying, "Can I visit tomorrow?" HUH? Did he just say Can I?????
I guess that's good since he hasn't seen or talked to them in almost 4 days.
I mean I think as sad as it is to say, its more for his guilt than really to be there for the kids. He'll visit so he doesn't feel like crap for a few weeks and circle back again.
Gosh sometimes I feel kinda bad because it seems like I am a downer and I'm really not. I hate the way this whole situation has made me think and feel. Feel like I lost a part of me that is hopeful and sees potential. Ya know my H's has always commented about my happy go lucky nature, it annoys him. He can't stand that I have the ability to take lemons and make lemonade. He even told DD17 one time, you mom is just so positive and happy go lucky and that's just not me!
He likes to call it naive. I like that part of me. I miss it.
The visit will give me time to relax alone which isn't too much since DS10 is home schooled now. Nothing like a nice Sunday afternoon nap.
Exactly 2 weeks of Plan B today, and yes I hate it, though strangely I think I am supposed to like this.LOL
J/K I do have some days where its not as bad, I think maybe I am PMS'ing or something maybe that's why I've been a lil emotional the last 2 days.
Hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving....back tomorrow for any updates.
Oh, sorry they lost, but glad you were there.
Plan B gets some getting used to. It was very difficult for me at first, and I DIDN'T feel great. But as I made a great life for myself, I got more perspective. Plus, the ups and downs on the rollercoaster leveled off and that was a huge relief.
You are doing very well. Don't give up.
You're doing great. Just do your best to protect your LB against intrusions.
Nuttin new to update. H didn't end up coming to visit since there was too much traffic and he left kinda late and it would have been dark when he got here so he called to tell DD17 that he had to turn back.
He did offer DD17 that he could hang out at the house and DD17 said uh yeah no that's not going to happen LOL. So I guess it's rescheduled for Tuesday or Wednesday depending on his schedule. Kids don't even seem like they really want to visit. They seem like its kinda a chore for them. I do have a schedule for H to visit but I am a little flexible since his schedule is never the same and all over los angeles and orange counties. Should I be more rigid about that? I mean at this point were lucky if he comes 1 time in an entire week so i don't really push it.
Anyways went out for a while this after noon and wandered some book stores. I love book stores. I don't know why I love wandering and looking at different books. It's really relaxing. Picked up a few books for kids under the tree.
Little hard when your out Christmas shopping and you see couples and families. Isn't it funny how all of a sudden you are acutely aware that your single but not in a good way? LOL Hit me a lot too when I was at DS10's games. Both DD17 and I noticed how many families were together watching the games all the time. Sometimes it makes me feel like a loser. I know probably a retarded mindset to have but I guess, at least I am hoping, that all these thoughts are normal.
But overall I feel okay, no crying today, this is good. 19 year anniversary is in 10 days. So far about 6-8 girls are going out for sushi with me on that day. I am looking forward to it. Its a bunch of fun girls so I know even if I feel a lil down they'll cheer me right up just being with em.
DD17 just baked an apple pie so I'm gonna go eat big piece! Don't you remember we never count calories on the weekends! LOL...
DD17 just baked an apple pie so I'm gonna go eat big piece! Don't you remember we never count calories on the weekends! LOL...
Eat a piece for me please
Just catching up on ya
Both DD17 and I noticed how many families were together watching the games all the time.
Well, T, they might look like happy families but who knows what's really going on with them? And that could be an "Uncle Bob" over there who went to the game with his sister because her husband is a WS or otherwise persona non grata.
But you know this already. Just wanted to drop in and say it, though. I've had those thoughts you have as well. It doesn't bother me anymore, though.
Charlotte
Hey, T2L, hope you are doing well in PB-world! It sure is quiet here!
BF439
Howdy! Yes it's very quiet here! i can say again that I HATE PLAN B, shoot, I HATE PLAN A,B, OW and did I mention H?!?!?
Okay I'll stop.
Nothing new to report, quiet for the most part. He called and talked to the kids last night and I believe he's calling the kids tonight.
So my computer is on the fritz and I'm at a friends house using the computer. I may have to post in a day or two. But believe me I will let ya'll know. i am hoping to get it fixed by the end of the week.
IM's: I can use my email via my cell phone, so I'll contact you that way for important info if needed.
I'm off to bake sugar cookies with the kids.....
YIKES!!!! Goat! Lamb, yes goat no!
So I'm gonna try and go see lildoggie in March when she comes to the states-at least that's my goal!
Ya hear that my lildoggie! Whooo hoooo! i can't wait!
So who's gonna be thur!!!!
I take it T2L doesn't like cabrito?
ROTFLMB(ootay)O!
I'm not sure if the IM's will say anything to him, kinda hope not cuz I really want him to eventually use them and it may push him away.
We are Switzerland.
We let Neak hold the chocolate (in her tummy).
Ello peeps! Popped into a friends house again to use a computer, man how did we live before PC's and cell phones?!?!? I am hoping to have my computer situation remedied by the weekend.
Nuttin new. H talked to kids last night, I guess he is going to try to visit tomorrow if his schedule will allow it. DD17 has been kinda frustrated with him lately. H could tell, he said whats wrong and she said nothing(i was eves dropping or monitoring the conversation LOL but I do monitor DS10's conversations as i don't trust the nutt) and DD17 said nothing. he knew it was because financially things are tight and he said don't worry it'll get better.
Plan B is hard to get used to, feels like everything is going backwards or nothing is happening at all, at least in reference to having my H come home. I know it's meant for me too but {{{sigh}}} I guess I'll feel better after a few more weeks at least thats what I've been told....
I'm up to day 2 and WH is still going through the defiant you can't tell me what to do stage. I remember your WH going through the same so that gives me hope that things will settle down.
My IM has been getting confronted by WH and WH's brother and me too. WH is leaving me alone but getting his family to call me.
Why do they have to make things so hard. You would actually think they would be happy to get the space that they craved so much before.
Anyway, keep your chin up. It sounds like you are staying really strong. You need to keep focussed on you! What are you doing for yourself today?
Stay strong. It will get better. One way or the other. You're doing the right thing. For you and your kids. And your H.
Ya know its funny because it's like I know that I am doing the right thing for me and the kids but it never dawns on me that this is the right thing for him too.
I used to tell him all the time, your a great man(i guess even then i sensed he had admiration needs). I would say this to him for years and more and more he became a great man. i hate to see what he has turned into. I mean if I wasn't going through this I wouldn't believe it myself. Even though he has moodiness and slight anger issues he was a man of great integrity. I mean our Pastor would have never appointed him and I associate Pastors if he wasn't. He was so faithful to church, always did more than most men and this was for 15 years.
I just can't believe what he turned into. Its shocking. And how mean he got.
IDK if he's gonna make it or not. I know either way I will. But it is such a shame, he really was a good man the last few years. Each year longer he walked with God, he was like a fine wine he got better.
This church that we are now in, is our sister church. We actually moved to this city as soon as he got this great job(the one he met OW at). We moved here to be near our church. This church was going to be handed to my H and i in about a year or two. H was in bible school and was going to have his bachelors in theology this month, but of course that didn't happen. Life is funny isn't it. The kids and I have continued to go to church 2 times a weeks through this all, and have been supported by everyone there. My DD17 has started singing with me again on the worship team. Its great!
Day 17 of plan B almost over...gonna watch Narnia 2 with kiddies tonight.
{{{hugs to all}}}
T2L,
Can I ask?
Did you and dwh have "the good stuff"?
I feel that you did. That your dwh got lost, but you know the "real" him is under there.
I'd say if you EVER had "the good stuff" that there is mucho, mucho, grande ginormous chance.
I KNEW the Wookie was better than he was behaving.
I knew it because we DID have the "good stuff" before he lost his footing for so long.
If you need me, I am here.
- Kimmy
T2L,
Can I ask?
Did you and dwh have "the good stuff"?
I feel that you did. That your dwh got lost, but you know the "real" him is under there.
I'd say if you EVER had "the good stuff" that there is mucho, mucho, grande ginormous chance.
I KNEW the Wookie was better than he was behaving.
I knew it because we DID have the "good stuff" before he lost his footing for so long.
If you need me, I am here.
- Kimmy
The good stuff. Hmmm......
WE had "the good stuff."
Didn't do a dang bit o' good, though.
Every case is different, however.
For instance, at least T got to play the SF card. MY WH started making excuses to get out of it BEFORE the two of them even had sex!
I even "jokingly" told him when we were lying in bed one time, "What's the matter, you don't want to cheat on your girlfriend?"
He laughed really funny (weird funny).
Turns out that was exactly it.
That was before MB.
Now? I still thank God that I found MB, or MB found me. I am a LOT better off. No matter what happens, T will be, too.
Charlotte
I take my chocolate-holding responsibilities very seriously.
erp
Ok ya'll computer problems resolved...off to church back later....
T2L,
Can I ask?
Did you and dwh have "the good stuff"?
I feel that you did. That your dwh got lost, but you know the "real" him is under there.
I'd say if you EVER had "the good stuff" that there is mucho, mucho, grande ginormous chance.
I KNEW the Wookie was better than he was behaving.
I knew it because we DID have the "good stuff" before he lost his footing for so long.
If you need me, I am here.
- Kimmy
I thought we had the good stuff, but now I wonder if we did. I always thought our love was special, ya know having been together since 8th grade and all. Guess we all think "our" love is special huh? We used to laugh so hard the next day we would call each other and start laughing all over again.
Funny thing about exactly 1 year before I sat on his chest and said are you happy? He responded of course I am happy I wouldn't be here, why? And I said well just want to be sure I'm doing all I can(Pre-SAA didn't even know about the principles of the book). But of course he rewrote the marital history and told mutual friends he hadn't been happy for many years.
I don't know what to think anymore. Did we have the good stuff or not. I mean may have thought it was the good stuff but since he's a major pessimist he may saw it differently. I don't even know if it's only that he was a pessimist, but that I think internally he had more going on than I thought. He had a nightmare childhood, as did I, but I think it did more on him than he thought but he doesn't believe in counseling or therapy so truly he never worked through his childhood issues and never really learned to love himself, where I did. As the saying goes you can only love others to the degree that you have self love and acceptance.
Now being in Plan B for 18 days I wonder if I could even forgive him and be able to go into recovery. I struggle with hating him immensely and still clinging to tiny bits of hope and love that I have left. IDK guess you don't have to be in Plan B to have that tho LOL.
Otherwise dark Plan B day, all is going as planned.
Back later to catch up, computer issues resolved...
Guess we all think "our" love is special huh?
I think I may have worded it wrong.
Let me put it this way, do you KNOW that your husband is BETTER (inside better) than he is behaving right now?
Do you know that because there was a time when he was the person you know he CAN be - or have there always been some "ifs" in your mind?
I'm wondering this - I've been here for a long while. I've seen people recover their marriages and people grow into these wonderful humans that just happen to NOT be married anymore.
I know Neak knew her fwh was better, and I feel that Pep "knew" Mr. Pep was better than he was behaving...do you "know" this about Mr. T2L?
I'm trying to get a grasp of the kind of person the Mr. is.
It really sounds like he WAS a good person - and maybe is mourning his fall from what he held dear. I know for the Wookie even ADMITTING that was one of the roadblocks in our recovery. From what you've told me, the Mr. sounds like he is cut from similar weft and weave.
Praying now for your Mr. to find the real him again.
All my love,
Kimmy
T2L, glad you are back, full-throttle. I check your posts every day and they really help me!
I think sometimes we hope so much that cutting ourselves off from WH in Plan B will kick things into gear and they will come back. I think one poster said that they were in Plan B for only 16 days -- I thought "great, the nightmare will be over soon!" But, it might not.
We had the good stuff, too. My WH was a good man, and I'd like to think that he's still there deep inside, just as you do, but I am starting to get that our work during Plan B is not just fighting the urge to contact them, but to do "our work -- and not in relation to spouse." I don't know about you T2L, but I've been with WH so long, I'm not sure where to start unless its in relation to him.
So on the one hand our actions are to save our marriage, but on the other hand we have to let go of our well-known role as wife to do so. It has me feeling a little lost, but also thinking a lot about who I am regardless of who is in my life.
I really envy those of you with a clear-cut faith, because you always have in your mind (perhaps) the role God has for you. For those of us who struggle with that part of ourselves too it seems to be harder...
BF439
BF439,
Yeah I think it was Lildoggies H that came back after 16 days. I knew my H would not deep down inside. He is very stubborn, and after going thru Thanksgiving I see that the holidays mean nothing being away from the family. I have set a mini goal of trying to keep going in 6 month increments as its more attainable. April 23rd was D-day. I hope to God I can make it to that date. I truly struggle between hating his with a burning passion(which i haven't dealt with til now) and sorrow. Honestly after Thanksgiving I have cried at least 4 days. Mostly in the shower and when the kids can't see, don't think its fair for them to see it.
My 19 year anniversary is coming up on Tuesday, I am dreading it, but have planned lil girl night out and so far about 8 girls are going with me. Gonna try to have a good time, but no it'll probably be impossible to not think about it a little.
Yeah I have been with H since we were 14 years old, so I understand. It's hard to see a different future that the one you saw in your head of growing old with H.
How are you doing emotionally? Is Plan B hard for you?
It sounds like our WH's actions towards some permanent life away from us makes it much harder to picture R. Yours staying with OW and mine in his new bachelor pad. Knowing my WH, I imagine that the longer he goes, the more he can add weight to his argument that it wasn't the affair, especially if OW doesn't want him anymore. The sick thing is, I think he would try to find anyone else ASAP for the "experience" and then to say, "see, I'm dating, I don't love BS."
Anyway, for the most part Plan B is good. There is something to look forward to everyday with my kids and I don't have to deal with him, except when he picks them up. Last night was hard for some reason; he had the two youngest for an overnight, and I just cried and cried in bed. My anxiety started to creep up and I thought "he's going to take my kids!" But I talked myself down enough to sleep.
I relate to how you feel about him (and her?) I just hate them both some days so much its all I can do to not go to her job and blast her or scream at him for all he's done. But I know that won't get me anywhere. I try to picture who do I want to be in this process and I think, "the classy woman, who, though betrayed, came out of this the stonger one that her kids love and respect."
My WH looks stronger because he doesn't show feelings and I struggle with that, but I can't beleive that someone who cheats and lies and leaves is strong at all. That's been his twist to this that he's strong now because he knows what he wants and is going for it and know we will all be better in the long run. I hate that "logic" line! -- that's what he feeds his family to justify what he's done.
We'll, I'd better get some work done...Thanks for posting back. It helps so much to know that others are going through what I am and are being strong, too. Inspiring!
BF439
My H moved into his bachelor pad in April. TO me I feel the longer it goes the less hope I have. He fought me every step in the beginning when I told him to leave. When I set up separate times for us to spend with our son. Now I kinda feel like he is getting used to it. I think he likes being a part time dad.
And he is also very stubborn so I just cant see him admitting that he was wrong. He LOves to say that it has nothing to do w OW and that he doesnt even see her anymore, its just that he doesnt want to be with me. then the cell phone bill comes 2000 minutes with OW (yes 2000) 200 text messages.
Okay keep telling everyone it has nothing to do with her. I know he doesnt get to see her too much. but he keeps saying he wasnt seeing her at all. and I keep finding out he is.
HE used to be a very good person. No one could beleive he left us. But maybe they just slowly turn into this other person and it takes them that much longer to turn back. and by then have we (BS) just givin up.
Yes, I feel like he is liking the part-time dad thing, too. I'm starting to think that its not just what issues there were in the marriage or the affair, but that he wants to be single. I'm seeing this trend with particular WH's and they are all close to 40 -- mid-life crisis driving this?
My WH will I think not choose to come home because what he has gotten in a single life is so less stressful.
No house to clean (only small apartment), can work as much as he wants, see the kids only twice a week; don't have to do thier laundry or plan b-day or holiday parties (his mom will do that for him), and he can have sex with whomever he wants. I think once he made that leap, the importance of being married and caring for me doesn't matter. That's the thing that hurts so much is that he made the decision to change his life to being a single-part-time dad and that's what he got. I don't feel like a part-time mom at all -- in fact, I always have one of them since DD12 won't go with him because he's a cheater!
So, I feel like I am still a wife (in Plan B, but still married, so I don't date) and still have the burden of my job and the house and all of that with 50% less help.
I'm feeling totally screwed over and taken advantage of and the thought that "he has to live with his choices and someday the fog will lift" is absolutely no comfort. So I get to take the high road and just have all the crap we had in our life before, just alone. Feeling like a victim all over again and I am tired of feeling that way!!
I guess it hurts that people assume he valued being a dad and in a family, but I don't think he did. How could you so easily walk away and assume that two homes will be better than one?
Do the ends justify the means? How do I craft my life to be what I want it to be with such a selfish person in the picture. So much last night I thought, I just want to file for D, take full-custody so I don't have to deal with this BS of him choosing when he's going to be a dad.
Any thoughts out there? I feel like I am on a total negative sprial and have no hope for R.
BF439
ST8126 and BF439,
I was wondering did your H's affair down? Is the OW a loser? I mean I guess its obvious, but my H affaired down.
The OW is somewhat over weight, a bar fly partier and she has been married before and was engaged at the time of the affair(which I exposed to the fiance).
H told DD17 several months ago that it wasn't about looks and when DD17 asked him so like what are you going to live the rest of your life like this he responds {{{pause}}} uh, no.
I don't believe this OW can hold a candle to me in any way shape or form, and i mean it in this humblest way possible. I guess that makes it even harder. I mean if she was a super model or freaking super successful or rich Gawd it would help ya know LOL. But she's none of them, and it makes it that much harder.
I truly think my H's self esteem issues were much deeper than I had thought. I knew he had them and saw them but never talked about it because he was a man and I just didn't think it would be right. But I think he has the hero complex and was trying to help this girl then the EA started which led to the PA. I'm not sure what is harder to take the EA or the PA. Just know that H probably said things about me to another woman just kills me. I think a good part of this A is him trying to feel good about himself and in general. It's like we had many many happy moments but there was always that underlying thing of unhappiness. I am the opposite. Positive and happy, for the most part, I get frustrated just like everyone else too.
I don't what to think anymore. I know that just before the sun comes out it's the darkest hour. I feel like I'm in my darkest hour, sure hope the sun comes out....
BF439,
I can totally understand your anger as I feel the same. I read this book before I found SAA and it helped me and continues to help me to try and hold on for a bit longer. Its called Divorce Remedy by Michelle-Wiener Davis. She explains how its worth at least fighting for the marriage for several reasons.
I mean if you must go the divorce route at least you can knowing you gave it all your effort and as much time as you could to give it a fighting chance and if you have to walk you can do so knowing you did everything you could. Imagine having to look back and think the dreaded "what if...". By you implementing SAA and giving it time you are giving your marriage the best shot. That's one good reason to not divorce quite yet.
I also read online somewhere that many women were polled on this website for betrayed spouse the top 10 to consider. One of the things they recommend is do not make any life decisions for at least a year. I think this is even recommended for those going through a death. I think most people are to vulnerable to make decisions on a life level before then. We could make decisions not based on wisdom but based on hurt and anger and that's not always the best choice.
The book also explains that most people think "just get a divorce and it'll be over". But she says a divorce is not always the short cut, it may actually take longer, and the truth is it will never be over since you share children. You will have to deal with spouse for the rest of your life.
I have been with my H since i was 14 that's 24 years. I have 24 years vested and its worth at least trying with all my might to give it a little time. My grace is diminishing daily and I know at some point I will no longer be able to do it. I hope he comes to his senses before that. April 23rd is D-day. 2nd goal make it to that day. That will be 1 year. I don't know if I can do it but I am going to try.
But i do understand what your feeling. They have no responsibilities and I do wonder too if my H has gotten the taste of the single life. But I acted like an idiot 1 time to his face at one of the games we both 1st attended. Guess what I could not stand how it made me feel because I'm just not that way. I always take the high road. I believe even if someone hurts you deal with your pain and keep it in your own backyard instead of re inflicting it on the person. So I couldn't stand my behavior and called him 5 minutes later and apologized. Take the high road you will be glad in the end no matter the outcome. Plus I found the more ammunition you give a person the more they refute in their mind your ammunition. But when you don't give them ammunition they have nothing to think on but their actions. I'd rather H think on his behavior than argue me in his head all day LOL.
BTW someone sent me this a few months back. Take a look at it. They have a very interesting story...http://www.rejoiceministries.org/
I dont know if my husband affaired down in looks. everyone tells me NOW that they had seen him with someone such and such a place a year or so ago. THey didnt share it w me till after the affair was exposed. but anyway they say shes overweigt and stuff. but i truly think they are just saying that to make me feel better.
I dont know if i could handle seeing her and dont look forward to that day. i am the type of person who would obsess over comparing myself. but insidewise i know for a fact i would never and i say never have knowingly carried on for two years with someone who was married and with a kid. Especially after the wife called me crying sayin she was desperately trying to hold her family together and please stay away (before MB i was a mess)
I was in the same marriage and had alot of oppurtinities to cheat I did not go that route. My DS was so important to me I would not even give it a second thought.
And my husbands mother cooks and does his laundry too. I mean i also feel he has left me with everything. but i just have to keep thinking i am doing this for my DS he needs me. I could walk away too but I guess we just have more integrity than WS. He left his wife and little boy crying and begging him to stay . I wouldnt be able to live w myself if i did that.
I feel like he has the life now why would he want to come back.
BTW trying2live thanks for the book and website i am going to look into them.
I feel like he has the life now why would he want to come back.
In Plan B, you have no idea what your WH is going through when he lays his head on his pillow at night. When my DH was gone, I also thought he was just living it up all the time, no responsibilities, no pain, just fun in the sun. In truth, it was the opposite. He tells me now that while he was gone, he was tormented all the time by what he was doing. He "tried" to live it up and have a good time but it was always colored by that little thought in the back of his mind, "What the heck are you doing?!?"
My DH tried to bury those thoughts in alcohol, it just made it worse.
So even though they may "appear" to be having the time of the life, the reality could be completely different.
But you're in Plan B so you don't know, nor should you care.
BF439,
But I acted like an idiot 1 time to his face at one of the games we both 1st attended. Guess what I could not stand how it made me feel because I'm just not that way. I always take the high road. I believe even if someone hurts you deal with your pain and keep it in your own backyard instead of re inflicting it on the person. So I couldn't stand my behavior and called him 5 minutes later and apologized. Take the high road you will be glad in the end no matter the outcome. Plus I found the more ammunition you give a person the more they refute in their mind your ammunition. But when you don't give them ammunition they have nothing to think on but their actions. I'd rather H think on his behavior than argue me in his head all day LOL.
BTW someone sent me this a few months back. Take a look at it. They have a very interesting story...http://www.rejoiceministries.org/
IN the beginning before MB. Oh how I wish i had found MB sooner.
I so many times acted like and idiot. There was such strong feelings it seemed as if I couldnt control myself. I have never felt such pain in my life. And I didnt know where to put it so I acted like a crazy person in the beginning.I felt so out of control of my emotions
But now I feel that without letting them out I am just stuffn my feeling w food. which is NOT helping the situation at all.But the pain is so much less now with time and MB. I did feel so alone and like a failure. but got some good info here on how to deal with it.
But you're in Plan B so you don't know, nor should you care.
You are so right. I do have a hard time with the not caring part. but i am working on it.
what he has gotten in a single life is so less stressful. No house to clean (only small apartment), can work as much as he wants, see the kids only twice a week; don't have to do thier laundry or plan b-day or holiday parties (his mom will do that for him), and he can have sex with whomever he wants. I think once he made that leap, the importance of being married and caring for me doesn't matter.
With the caveat that the men who come here to MB are probably more evolved and self-aware than the typical man out there, I firmly believe this is at least possible, if not probable, of most men. They go from being taken care of by mommy to being taken care of by wifey, and really don't want to get any deeper than that. Why do you think one of men's top ENs is
recreational activity together? It's because they want to keep playing, like they did when they were kids. Being adult and taking care of kids and issues is no fun. Why do you think college boys' places reek of stale beer and pizza while college girls' places are at least non-toxic? Because we're raised with the responsibility gene. Also why most men's ENs are all about us women making things fun and happy and exciting for them, and patting them on the back, while most women's ENs are all about accomplishing things and feeling safe and secure.
Day 19 done and nice and dark. It's not really hard staying dark as he lives an hour away with the Sea Hag Toad. Funny thing, I have been in Plan B for 19 days right? Well he's seen his kids 3 times in 19 days. He's called about 11 of those days for the kids which I guess is not bad. During plan A he was here at the house about 3-4 times a week spending 6-8 hours here sometimes more.
Well last week he deposited money in the bank but not much so I had to send a message to the IM's letting him know that it wouldn't cover some of the needs( i knew it would be as he has to pay his half of the rent for the Toad's den). So I guess he talked to DD17 yesterday and complained to him about it being sparse-no eating out for the kiddies LOL. So he deposited more money in, not that he's doing me any favors. DD17 said he felt bad, whatever! But luckily he has provided for us through this entire mess and I haven't had to file LSA.
He called and said where is your mom and she knows to tell him IDK per my instructions. So she says IDK he says well can you tell her i put more money in, and DD17 knows not to pass any messages to me while on the phone with him so she says I'll let her know. Well I guess tonight he texted DD17 that he's not gonna listen to any IM's and that its probably a fake email I set up. DD17 says how dad when our computer was broken? H then responds well I'm still not talking to an IM and I don't know what the bills are for the month.
I then say DD17 you text him and tell him that it is too stressful for you to discuss the household needs and ask him to look at the emails from the IM's and to at least read them because you do not want to be in the middle of the bills. DD17 told him dad the IM's sent you an email with all the needs for the month so at least read it even if you don't want to respond. All the attorney fees and stuff is in there too(we are working with Attorneys to save our home). He then responds what attorney fees....LOL...hope is scared him LOL.
Anyways IM's I think he may at least read them now.
So here's another thing, what do you guys think about this. So H hasn't made any effort to visit the kids. DD17 tells me today I told dad how come he visited 3-4 times a week when he was talking to you and now he doesn't. Guess he gave her some lame excuse which she didn't like LOL.
What he wants to do is take the kids Sunday morning. Okay, well the our family has gone to church for 15 years every Sunday morning, except of course if were on vacation or something. DS10 has been in church since he was 21 days old and DD17 since she was 3. H knows how important it is to me to give my kids a spiritual heritage and raise them in a Godly environment. He kinda at times dislike me about this. So of all the days he wants to visit any guess on days and times? Yup Sunday morning.
So I said to the kids you are free to visit after 1 PM for the most of the day. Is that being unfair to H? I know I probably shouldn't care, I'm just weird. IDK. For the most part the kids like going to church, occasionally they complain like most kids, but even DD17 started singing on the worship team with me again. And DS10 loves the Pastor and the Pastor always makes time when DS10 comes into his office.
No tears today, that's a good thing, still fighting the anger and hate thing. I knew that I would have times of sadness but I really wasn't prepared to hate the dude. I guess its all part of the range of emotions, hopefully that will even out.
DD17 said mom I was talking to dad and he said he's gonna add extra money for the Christmas presents so it should be a good Christmas. DD17 says mom I told him, "uh yeah IDK about that". She thought it was funny.
So the kids and I discussed what they wanted to buy there dad for Christmas and they said nothing that Sea Hag Toad can benefit, so no clothing, cologne, restaurant gift cards etc etc So we thought of things creatively. Some of his favorite things. Slippers, travel coffee mug, sunflower seeds, chap stick, Chocolate and a family picture DVD set to music. Then DS10 says the funniest thing ever. He says mom we can get dad a T-shirt that we have printed but we turn it inside out so he can't see it. Then he can put it on and he can see the front that says "I hate Sea Hag Toad". Oh man I laughed hysterically and said DS10 you are so funny!
Well your all updated...
Well,
I believe the correct name is "Toad Hall".
But I also think "Toad Dorm" and "Toad Fort" are good monikers because it clearly shows the emotional level of the occupants.
I really feel sorry for your DD. She is telling you what is going on in her life- and reacting with her dad is a huge part of it now. (I teach high school- and ALL teenage girls, like, spend sooooo much time talking about this,, and like, that) but this IS still keeping YOU looped into WH nuttiness.
I don't know if that is good for you.
I don't know how to put a stop this, tho.
She wants to support you, but she is now the "mediator". Hmmmmmm. Not her job. And it would be IMPOSSIBLE for a child to edit out information that to her ALL seems important.
P.S.
Have Pastor call, email or write your WH a note saying he really looks forward to seeing the kids at church EVERY Sunday morning. This does not have to be a condemnation, just a friendly reminder of good priority making.
You do not have to be part of it, either.
I would not allow him to have them before 1pm. If he wants more hours with them, he can come on Saturday, too. Don't let him set that precedence.
I agree that listening to D17 may be hard, but if it were me, I would do any sacrificing I had to, to let my daughter feel free to talk to me, for her mental well-being. I'm blessed to have a D18 who wants to be around me, but it could easily have gone the other way and she could have shut down. And that would damage her more than me.
I then say DD17 you text him and tell him that it is too stressful for you to discuss the household needs and ask him to look at the emails from the IM's and to at least read them because you do not want to be in the middle of the bills. DD17 told him dad the IM's sent you an email with all the needs for the month so at least read it even if you don't want to respond. All the attorney fees and stuff is in there too(we are working with Attorneys to save our home). He then responds what attorney fees....LOL...hope is scared him LOL.
Anyways IM's I think he may at least read them now.
I hate that he's put her in the middle. You may need to ask her to say, "check your email" anytime he has ANY questions.
Example:
WH: What do you all need?
DD: You to check your email.
WH: What lawyer's fees?
DD: Dunno. It's in your email.
Etc.
She should have only two lines to ever repeat to him regarding this grown up stuff...IDK and "email, email, email."
He doesn't like it, he mans up and does what he needs to do to fix himself.
No more T2L fixes AT ALL.
Yes! "Check your email" is perfect. That gets her out of the discussion.
Thanks guys, feel better now especially about the church thing. I felt like I was being selfish and using the kids by not allowing him to have the kids during church time on Sunday. He can have them after church, plus it'll give him that precious precious time he used to complain about where he wanted to sleep and not go to church.
DD17 is very very close to me. Even more now than she used to be. She used to be closer with her dad before all this mess. She even told him that a few months back. I think by having her tell him that its too stressful for her and to read the email this may have hopefully done the trick. DD17 knew about the money issues because you know how teenagers are, they always ask for money LOL. Well had to tell her sorry its tight this week dad didn't deposit very much, so she vented to her dad. I think her really wanted her to be in the middle, but I am thinking and hoping now by having her say that it may have worked. That was my goal at least.
I will tell her this morning as a follow up, if dad asks you anything its IDK or not sure check your email.
Tomorrow is 3 weeks in Plan B. Wow time flies when your miserable-ooops did I say that out loud,darn it was that inner monologue sneaking out again LOL) I mean time flies when your having f-uu-nnnnn. Ok good I got it out, was stuck there for a minute wasn't sure it was gonna come out.
Did you read the Dr. Harley advice that Mel posted to BestFriend? It was about continuing your life as if WH was NEVER going to come back.
Plan B is very difficult at first, but gets easier as you get more activities.
Have you thought about getting a part-time job to help out with the house payments? It just seems so unreal that WH is helping to support another household while the family home is in danger.
Funny you say that I just read that. That part stuck out to me as well. It's hard to choke down. You go through Plan A hoping that your marriage will reconcile then Plan B you have to switch to live your life as if he won't return. All sucks.
H has said many times, and very adamantly that he does not support her, that he pays for a portion of the rent as he needed somewhere to live. He says he takes care of us and she takes care of herself. During Plan A we talked about the house and thats when we hired the attorneys. H does not want to lose the house, at least that's what he has said numerous times and when he was here he loved doing the projects I threw at him.
When he came home for the 2 weeks right after D-day(before I knew about SAA) he had told me that he and the Sea Hag had talked about the finances. I said how on earth are you going to support both of us he said I'm not. I told Sea Hag that I was going to support you guys and that it was going to be tight and she was ok with that because she loves me {{{gag}}}
I have thought about a part time job, I'm conflicted a bit about it. DS10 is home schooled, a lot of it due to the anxiety put on him from this whole mess. So he is with me full time, day and night. ON occasions if DD17 is home for the evening she would watch her brother and I would catch a salsa class. At some point once our church gets a bit larger I will be put on staff as I am head worship leader, but we need to grow a bit more before that can happen. i do little side things for people to pick up extra cash, credit repair etc.
I told Sea Hag that I was going to support you guys and that it was going to be tight and she was ok with that because she loves me {{{gag}}}
Hon, they'll say ANYTHING to get the guy.
If they aren't above bedding a MM, then they aren't above lying to them (and themselves).
Think creatively, like the goddess you are. It would be a shame to lose your home.
I have a full-time job in contracts for a hospital. But after my WH moved out and gave me no money, I had to get busy. First I took in roommates. And then I took care of a co-workers rented home while she went overseas.
From that, I started my own property management business. I now have 10 homes, and finally make good money at it, and it doesn't take very much time.
Figure out what your talents are and develop them.
Figure out what your talents are and develop them.
Exactly!! Think about doing something that has to do with cooking. From what I have read from all your posts, I think you are very good at it!!
Think about this!!
Angie.
OH for the LOVE OF GOD! Well IM's H finally picked up his certified letter from the post office and he also got the 2nd letter you mailed to him. I can't even remember what they said, I think visitation and financial stuff. Y'all know he was pissed(of course), I know i know I'm not supposed to know any of it. Here's how it went.(That Bloody bast@rd!!!!) No worries still was dark Plan B day.
So the kids and I did some errands together today. Took them to lunch and then in the evening we went to get some ice cream together. As we arrive to get ice cream I guess H had called DD17 and left a message, so before we went in she listened to her voice mail and says Oh no! Dad got the mail you guys sent to him and he's mad.
I said DD17 text him and say sorry dad I'm not going to pass that on to mom I just don't want to be in the middle of the money and visitation issues. So this time she rudely says dad, I don't want to be in the middle of this its too stressful so read your emails, this is between you and mom!
He gets mad and texts back and says I will never come back and she is making this worse. She is playing games and I would rather be single than have her control me. All your mom needs to do is communicate with me. DD17 then says well mom did communicate with you for a few months and you still didn't come home. He then tells DD17 well if you don't want to be in the middle of it then don't ask me for money. DD17 sometimes asks dad for money if she needs extra, normal teenage stuff. So I told DD17 to just stop talking to him.
OH GOD!!!! I swear, It makes me doubt what i am doing. I mean am I making it worse? I thought for just a second ok If I communicate with him maybe he will come back but then threw it out of my head. But I struggled. Am I stinking crazy! I feel like Im sealing my doom for any chance because "I'm making it worse and not communicating"...ARGGGGG
We all were just upset. Like we had a nice day and he ruined it in a 5 minute conversation. I'm thinking he won't talk about the stuff with DD17 about it anymore this time she was quite rude when she told him she didn't want to be in the middle of it. It pissed him off bad. She doesn't hold back on him, she says things to straight and cut throat to him that I could have never said my entire marriage. But its all truth.
I told DD17 I do not want you in the middle at all, you tell him you don't want to be in the middle and keep telling him to view his emails. I think she is getting tired of him as well. She is pissed off a bit at him too.
Tomorrow is 3 weeks...hurray I guess.
Figure out what your talents are and develop them.
Exactly!! Think about doing something that has to do with cooking. From what I have read from all your posts, I think you are very good at it!!
Think about this!!
Angie.
Especially with watermelon
Well sux to be him with all those CONSEQUENSES
Well gee, I shagged around on my wife and she got upset...how dare she!
I am messing with my kids security and well being and they are not being nice to me..how dare they!
People are trying to protect my wife and seperate her from my wayward, f*cked up mindset...how dare they!
This is exactly why PB is sooooo good for the BS. Total removal from the MADNESS!!!!
You stay your path.
Hmmmm - I wonder if your DD17 could Plan B him too? She is, truly, almost of age.
Do you have an attorney and a psychologist?
She could write her own Plan B letter and flat out tell him to stop using her to try to get to you, and until he complies, she wants nothing to do with him, no texts, phone calls, visitation, nuttin!
Well DD17 has Plan B'd him twice after Discovery. She loves her dad and is torn really. Pre-A, she was a daddy's girl but she has recently told her dad that she is closer to me and knows me and respects me.
She is torn. She tells me mom this all sucks our family is broken, its embarrassing and he did all of this we didn't. Part of her really wants to write him off and another part loves her "old" daddy that even after she turned 17 tucked her in at night and stayed in her room for 20 minutes laughing together.
IDK that I could ask her to do that, but If she decided to like before I support her. Then DS10 has had so much anxiety that he doesn't really want to spend much time with dad unless DD17 goes to the visit too. He has mixed feelings, he too loves his daddy but another part of him is very anxious and unsure about his dad. I try to keep most info from DS10 but some stuff he can figure out. He knows his dad isn't the dad he knew. He too cut his dad off at discovery as he was so upset.
I think also DD17 feels like she has to keep in contact with her dad because of the car he bought her last month...which i disagreed to DD17 about accepting but was in Plan A so didn't say much about it as I didn't want to LB.
Then another thing that I think DD17 keeps in contact with her dad is about 3 weeks ago she had a dream that her dad committed suicide and I think the dream scared her. So we told the Pastor and have prayed safety over him.
But I do understand, how a Plan B might be good but so many other things that it would have to be dangerous for me to initiate that.
NO attorney or Psychologist why?
A psychologist delivering a message that your son and daughter's mental health is at risk with him putting them in the middle, and that he chose Ho - you get to choose to protect yourself from him and his selfishness, and that's just the way it is... might settle him down into cooperating with Plan B a bit more. If his King Baby attitude becomes apparent to more people that he might not want to know what a King Baby he is...
Forgot to add about the attorney...
To put teeth into the fact that your children are being traumatized to the point of health problems by his selfishness (see psychologist report), so the attorney is considering an emergency hearing to adjust his visitation, possibly to zero, until he cooperates with Plan B - and stop involving the children in the middle of his refusal to work with the intermediaries you've provided so that he DOESN'T lose contact with his children.
He gets mad and texts back and says I will never come back and she is making this worse. She is playing games and I would rather be single than have her control me. All your mom needs to do is communicate with me.
Which is fog for : I miss my cake and am going to hold my breath until I turn blue and die!
He then tells DD17 well if you don't want to be in the middle of it then don't ask me for money.
FS for: I'm going to punish YOU, my child and flesh and blood, because it's the only thing I can think of to do, what with the lack of O2 to my brain and all.
Think about this rationally instead of with your feelings - your feelings are too much driving your brain. That's understandable.
He's pissed at a CHILD b/c he's not getting his cake fix?
WTF kind of LOGIC is that?
Baby, he really expected you to be his SIDE PIECE until HE decided whether he wanted to be single or not. He was making YOU - the LEGITIMATE WIFE - into the OW, and he was LOVING it.
But you decided you didn't like the cat turds in THAT particular sandbox, so you took YOUR TOYS and quit playing.
Well dude, sorry about your bad luck.
(not really)
And now he misses your toys. The OWs toys are old and crusty and she doesn't make PB and J's like you do...and it's pissing him off, because he KNOWS his sandbox is full of turds...he's just being lazy and not cleaning it up.
He thinks if he screams AT HIS CHILDREN it will raise the mama bear instincts in you and you'll clean his sandbox again and maybe bring your lovely toys.
I'm beginning to think it's time for the kids to pull back.
Honestly, what is he going to say to people? "I'm mad because she OFFERS me time with the kids via EMAIL?" or "I'm mad because she cant stand to talk to me while I'm sleeping in another woman's bed yet she still gets ALL pertinent info to me...albeit thru a 3rd impartial party?"
You meanie.
All my love,
Kimmy
oh.
And I loves me some K&A today.
K&A ROCKS!
I sure hope your right about the toys thing. Its hard when your the BS you think that the WS's are happy living the times of their lives since they can't stand us anymore. I know I'm not supposed to think about it, but I'm human and I do.
Ok Very good perspective, its very easy to get so emotionally involved and take this crap personal but hearing that makes it very funny and puts it back into perspective.
I have no attorney and no psychologist. I was hoping I didn't have to get one.
DS10 had some therapy sessions during football but needed to stop as he was getting stressed out with school, therapy and then rushing back to football. And the HMO we belong to will not do anything for court and DD17 threw a fit when I asked her to go to the therapist as she said it was for crazy people and she's not crazy. So being that she'll be 18 in 2 months I just let it be as asking caused her more stress.
I can talk to the kids and ask them about pulling back. Do you think he would accuse me of using the kids against him? I mean I think my kids would probably tell him off if he pushes it too far. DD17 is getting close, the water H is treading on is thin with her. If he keeps it up she will rip him a new A-hole. she it ruthless to him. She did it at discovery, it was so bad I had to ask her to stop LOL. She would rip him daily call OW a wh0re, and tons of other things. LOL it was bad.
In fact H called a few times the last few weeks and DS10 didn't want to talk. And actually I was outside one time and he didn't want to talk and made DD17 tell his dad a lie that he was not at the house. I said I would prefer they didn't lie and just tell dad he doesn't feel like talking. But DS10 says I can't tell my dad that mom, I just can't. I don't talk to him like that and he will be mad at me. So DS10 would rather lie than tell dad he doesn't want to talk.
He is supposed to come visit with the kids tomorrow after church. If it stays dark and quiet today maybe I should I see how that is first?
IDK if he'll even keep the visit tomorrow, he didn't call DS10 last night. I guess it can go either way. He hasn't seen them in a few weeks and DD17 called him on it. She said ya know now that you don't see mom you don't even visit us.
Yup today is 3 weeks plan B and he's only seen them 2 times. He does call somewhat regularly though.
Okay new day, stay busy, no thinking about Mr. I love cake.
If money is an issue, get some help from the school psychologist so that you have a professional opinion. And sometimes there's free legal help or minimal cost help available for issues such as this.
Where there's a will to protect your children, there's a way.
Sometime take your daughter out for an ice cream cone or something and just chat about how things are for her. Ask her what she'd do if she had complete choice over her life and what's going on. Then drill down into finding out what she really wants to do to step out from between you and your husband. Children have some great ideas sometimes.
I agree with everything KA says. Plus, I would add, I would highly suggest to your kids that they take at least one week off from dealing with their dad - not to benefit you, but to help them get some breathing space, as things are getting too emotional. Just ask them to delete his emails, so that he will start using the IM. In fact, you could tell them that by doing so, they will be helping him to decide to come back home.
I would also add that I can already see severe problems in your S10 with this. Trust me. I saw my brother go through this and he's been through repeated suicide attempts in his life just because his dad abandoned him in about the same way your H has. My brother took it ALL on his own shoulders. He, too, was afraid to upset his father, would never tell him anything bad, never tell him he wasn't happy, went along with whatever father wanted just to keep father from being upset with him; in other words, gave up his own needs to satisfy his dad. As stupid as that sounds, THAT IS WHAT THEY DO - THEY BLAME THEMSELVES. You'll see it again and again and again in textbook cases.
Are you in the US? Go to
www.unitedway.org and find your local chapter. They will help you get therapy for him, money for you, legal and financial help or at least advice, whatever you need. Please do this ASAP.
And take your kids out of the equation!
Tell your IM what's going on and ask her to help protect your children!
Oh, and what your H is doing? Pure bullcrapola! One hundred percent entitlement and selishness and greed and not one iota of concern for YOU. Why on earth would ANY of this be YOUR fault! He is being an A-1 #1 Class A jerk. Anyone who would do what he's doing to you, let alone to his own kids, needs to spend some serious time in therapy. PLEASE do not be putting any of the blame on yourself.
He doesn't deserve you, and if he wakes up and finally becomes a decent human being, he'd better thank his lucky stars you let him come home.
Well y'all finished up Week 3. Today is exactly 3 weeks of lovely Plan B.
Nothing new to update, very quiet day after yesterdays chaos. I think H is mad at DD17 for setting a boundary and letting H know she doesn't want to be in the middle of it all. He made no contact with her all day.
He did however call and leave a message on answering machine for DS10 at 8PM but the kids had gone to the park so they were not home and ya know I wasn't gonna answer.
I did ask DS10 if he wanted to call him back but DS10 gets wierd
by the whole talking to dad thing. Sometimes he wants to and other days he does not.
H had planned that visit tomorrow after church with the kids but after that crap yesterday I am not sure he will end up visiting them. I would be surprised if he did. DD17 doesn't really even want to visit as of now and DS10 doesn't want to visit unless DD17 is with him. DS10 says, mom its really dumb that we have to visit our own dad when he should be here. I laugh and say son you are so wise for a boy your age. Guess we'll see if he comes won't we. Update y'all tomorrow.
Off to bed....
:MerryChristmas: Okay just wanted to use the cute lil Icon.....okay now off to bed....
Just so you know, the local phone number for ALL united way is 311.
When I told the Wookie not to let the door hit him in his hinder,they were the ONLY ones to even lift a finger to help the children and me.
Just so you know, the local phone number for ALL united way is 311.
When I told the Wookie not to let the door hit him in his hinder,they were the ONLY ones to even lift a finger to help the children and me.
Dealean, I never knew that! Thank you! And I'm glad to hear an actual story from someone who used them. You see people donate to them in the corporate world year after year, and I always wonder who's getting the benefit. Nice to know you did.
Sorry for the T/J!
Ah man ok here's the deal. H aka IDIOT did come visit the kids and is behind the house at the park(my backyard is attached and goes into the park).
I am selling these 2 motorcycles and someone is coming to look at them right now.
The kids dragged him to jamba juice to keep him away. What do I do if he comes back CRAP CRAP CRAP! I don't want to see him!
On another funny note. DD17 days yeah Dad asked me if I lost my Picture of me and Brian Welch(singer from band Korn who converted to Christianity and attended our church for a while).
DD17 says my mom has it, and H says(LOLOLOL) yeah I saw it on her myspace, she finally changed her picture. WHAT!?!?!
He's looking at my myspace? He doesn't even have one himself. I have a music page as I have a few songs I have cut for a demo. Looking at my myspace, hilarious.
Jerk I can't stand him! Ok gotta get bikes ready...so help, what if he comes while Im selling the bikes what do I do????? Hurry
If he comes, ignore him as best you can and if you HAVE to, tell him he's not welcome there and you're not interested in a conversation with him under any circumstances than those which have already been outlined for him in writing. If he makes a scene (unlikely with strangers there looking at the bikes, but with a wayward you never know), call the cops.
Ok so far so good! I called the people on there way here and said my H and I are not talking right now and he is in the front yard with the kids so please come in the house and I will take you to the garage. So did it that way and they did take the bikes.
Thank God IDIOT is still here and did not bother coming up even while they loaded the bikes in the driveway. Sounds wierd but my driveway is up hill so the side walk is away from the front door and garage so I never even saw him. I just closed the door and came in. He is still here.
So funny when he had asked DD17 about her picture with Brian Welch and she said that I had it and he was looking at my myspace, he also said ya know she took off all the information about me....Well duh!
Back later....
Thanks for the update, I was wondering how you were doing. It went great and even better, you sold the bikes. Woot!
Trying2Live,
Tread carefully with the psychologist. My WW tried to schedule an appointment for DS6 the other day, did not tell me about it, and got a very nicely worded letter from my attorney about the illegality of such a move.
Basically, getting the kids a psych eval without the other spouse knowing is a very popular tactic for custody battles and in my area the courts are fed up with it. I would suggest the following to protect yourself:
- schedule the evaluation but have the IM let WH know when and where the appointment is and that you will arrange to have the counselor talk to him to get his opinion as well.
B
Hey you guys another question, so Tuesday is my 19 year anniversary. What if he sends me flowers or something can I return to sender it or reject the flowers. I mean it may not happen but I would like to be prepared.
He also asked DD17 for the family website, which I have already given him plus the password. Sure thing buddy I'll give it to you so you can torture yourself looking at all of us. And any new things we've done since you left-even Plan A trips like Disneyland aren't gonna have you in em.....LOLOLOLOL. He hates that. He hates his pictures are down in the house and hates that I took all his pics and info down off the myspace...Okay I don't get it. Guess I was supposed to stare at pics of him and let everyone think all is well...uh yeah...NO!
Well, you could do what I did. I took the flowers to the OW's house and gave them to HER. Then she threw them out in the street and WH went by and retrieved them the next day and brought them back to me. They were a little limp and worse for the wear, so I threw them out in the street.
Of course, we are divorced now.......................
Just throw them away and NEVER mention them. You are dark, remember?
Could they be taken to a retirement home or something? Me hating to see flowers die for nothing. LOL
Hi JayneyPooh! I've missed you! Just wanted to say hi!
Toughen up - you are in Plan B, therefore, he is not a speck of dust on your mind right now.
This is not a Plan B state of mind you've had today. Forward the flowers to your IMs - they will enjoy the fragrance and you will enjoy the lack of distraction he has caused you today.
I thought maybe taking the flowers to the backyard and throwing them on the ground and jumping up and down on them- might be lots of fun -then when I am done I can light the card on fire and roast some marshmallows, smores anyone?
I truly don't think he will do either but I'm a rather safe than be sorry kinda person.
Well guess he's back tomorrow for another visit with the kids.
Made it thought it all not break in my darkness....
I'm off to work on my family website, its gonna take me at least 6 months or more scanning and uploading 24 years of pics. Its fun to see the kids old pictures, time sure flies, kids grow so fast.
Good morning y'all.
Had a crappy late night. Kids were sitting watching TV on couch last night and DD17 got a text she tells DS10 dad says he had a great time with us, I love you and have a good night.
Over hearing them talk was hard, I managed to hold it in til they both were asleep and cried my guts out quietly for 2 hours in the spare bedroom. I talk with God when I cry, He's always the best listener LOL.
Though I am trying to stay busy, I am truly emotionally exhausted, bewildered, and truly very sad at all of this. It is mind bending to think that my H has brought the kids and I to this place, but mostly for me, as the kids will carry on their relationship with their dad. Its gut wrenching.
I am dreading tomorrow, 19 year anniversary. The girls and I are planning to go out. I am still dreading it. I feel like I just want to lay and bed and cry but I can't because the kids and I don't want to be an example of giving up but in my heart I have almost given up.
Yeah I know they say with time it gets better, I think tolerable might be a more appropriate word. Don't know that I can ever look at this as better.
Okay, I'm off the house is destroyed because I as so darn domestic that i force myself to do nothing on sundays but relax, which makes for a dirty house on Monday.
Have a great day, everyone....
T2L, I am so sorry that you had a crummy night. No one deserves the pain you feel, but I am glad that you are healthy enough to cry all that pain out. In the long run you will be better off for grieving for real what is currently gone in your life.
BF439
T2L
Crying can help a lot get it out. it has been 8 Mos of my Plan B and I cry very rarely now. Down from crying everyday. So it does get better with time. HANG IN THERE>
Though I am trying to stay busy, I am truly emotionally exhausted, bewildered, and truly very sad at all of this. It is mind bending to think that my H has brought the kids and I to this place, but mostly for me, as the kids will carry on their relationship with their dad. Its gut wrenching.
Oh sweetie, that is just plain sucky. Come here and vent and yell and stuff. My offer to you regarding 'bad' emails still stands if you need it
T2L
He also asked DD17 for the family website, which I have already given him plus the password. Sure thing buddy I'll give it to you so you can torture yourself looking at all of us. And any new things we've done since you left-even Plan A trips like Disneyland aren't gonna have you in em.....LOLOLOLOL. He hates that. He hates his pictures are down in the house and hates that I took all his pics and info down off the myspace...Okay I don't get it. Guess I was supposed to stare at pics of him and let everyone think all is well...uh yeah...NO!
How interesting. He doesnt 'want' you, he is kicking and screaming about NC with you (which was his choice BTW... NC with you of NC with her) and yet he wants you to 'communicate' and is looking at you pics online
Hey you guys another question, so Tuesday is my 19 year anniversary. What if he sends me flowers or something can I return to sender it or reject the flowers.
Hmm, this sounds like an expectation and you know that that's premeditated resenment.
So blitherly stealing an idea from another poster....
Just updating...H visited the kids today and took them for a burger.
DD17 said yeah mom I had to stop him. He told me if I was emotional tomorrow to leave so you have space because its your 19 year anniversary and he got ready to say tell her...and I said NO and then he said to well I guess I can't say Happy anniversary so, sad anniversary I guess.
FREAKING PIG!!!!! HOW DARE YOU EVEN TRY AND WISH ME ANYTHING YOU RAT BAS$T@RD!!!!!!! and Yes I am yelling....
Can't I just skip over tomorrow?? I'm so tired of crying.......Just gotta make it through Anniversary and Christmas and hopefully it'll be a little relief.
Thats all......
Anniversaries suck. My 10 yr was just a month ago, and it was an awful day. I hope you manage to have a busy day so that you dont have to think about him to much. And good for your daughter for stopping him.
When you say he visited the kids, is he doing this through the IM? If not, STOP IT! EVERYTHING needs to go through IM.
Well Happy Anniversary to me. I am going to get my hair done today and then dinner with a few girls. I'm purposely not driving so I can have a few glasses of wine.
No H refuses to use the IM's. H was sent a schedule of days that the kids are free. He refuses to speak with them and so the IM's have told me that I will probably not get communication back from him. But regardless I am still sending information through the IM channel and disregard the fact that he has given them crap and we have had to go postal for communication as opposed to email.
In addition my 17 year old, 18 in 2 months, is old enough to visit with her dad when ever she wants. So when he is free he calls DD17 and asks her if she wants to visit and DS10 will go along.
Other than visitation there is not much to send through the mediators. He deposits money every week since the start of this in April so we have no reason to communicate. He calls the house when he arrives and the kids are sent out or he meets them in the park. Other than that not sure what else can be done.
That's cool. I just wanted to make sure you weren't going through any extra contact issues.
Heck NO! I am not talking to dat fooh!
My Plan B is pretty dark. Even when he talks to the kids on the phone I am out of the room or silent, I won't even let him hear my voice. I hate Plan B, have doubted myself, wish I could stop, but I am not coming out of PB. This is where it ends either way, one way or the other.
When I know he is meeting the kids in the park or out front to get them, I go to my room and wait til they are gone. If they come home early and I am wandering around the house, DD17 will come in and say he's at the end of the driveway mom go and hide yourself. DD17 does not want him to see me either so she helps me. Like Sunday I didn't know if he had parked his car in front of the house when we came home from church so i parked at the corner store and had DD17 go first before I came home. She called me and said he's not here come home now. I have been successful in keeping it airtight, no email, no texting, no hearing my voice when he talks to kids, no phone calls and completely out of sight.
Like Sunday sold 2 motorcycles through the paper. Called the people on the way and asked them to pull up into the driveway and I will have them come through the house and into the garage to look at the bikes because my H is here visiting his kids and I do not want to see him. They said no problem. They came into the garage started the bikes checked them out and then when they wanted them I opened the garage and they loaded their truck. So even then I took precautions to try and avoid visual sighting and contact as best as I could. Plus DD17 said well when you opened the garage dad said lets go for a walk to your mom doesn't see me....Oh thanks jerk...that's a mighty big favor there. Whatever!
Anyways the ship is airtight y'all, I hate it but I guess it doesn't matter.
Well no tears this morning. Maybe I cried enough yesterday to cover it. LOL Looking forward to getting my hair done, those grays are coming out LOL....
Have a great day everyone.....
He's being a right-royal horse's hinder.
You, dear, are wonderful.
He's being a right-royal horse's hinder.
You, dear, are wonderful.
Well I was actually thinking more like what comes out of a right-royal horse's hinder...eh... whatcha think...I'm right aren't I? That's a better and truer description of what he's being. LMAO!
Yeah, but I'm not allowed to say that on this board.
Sensitive eyes and feelers and all that...
You could try "solid excrement."
Nothing to say, really... you are doing SO WELL, and you're getting great advice and support... there's just not much to add.
I do want to say have a very happy day today. When you catch yourself feeling blue over what might have been, focus on the fact that you have your kids and a GREAT relationship with them, you are an amazingly strong woman, and you have HUGE integrity. Those things make you rich.
Awe Turtle
Thanks. I think I cried so much yesterday I am done. Weird, thought I would be more upset as soon as I woke up, but went and got hair done, so I always feel better when I do that. So no anniversary tears...Whoo Hooo
I am rich because of my munchkins. They are feisty but amazing.
I am for today going to try and put H out of my head. Hopefully today he will feel worse than me and I'm sure he is because he really doesn't have many friends because he has tendencies to be a loner and i am not that way. I love people and entertaining he likes to be by himself-which is good sometimes but not all the time.
Anyways I will be eating sushi with friends and I picked a really cool place so the atmosphere should be lots of fun and he will be alone just like he wants! LOL
Ok I'm off I think I'll go by myself a new pair of boots....
Okay, I'm mean and sick but I just got this visual of T2L off eating Sushi with her friends (and you KNOW they're great people, because T2L likes them!), feeling great for her support network and her new 'do...
And WH is groveling at Sea Toad Hag's feet asking if she'll fix him some anniversary Ramen!!!
She'll probably kick him out and make him sleep in the car!!!
And WH is groveling at Sea Toad Hag's feet asking if she'll fix him some anniversary Ramen!!!
They make Sushi flavoured Ramen???
T2L,
you have the bestest, most awesome day. Over eat and over indulge and just plain spoil yourself. You deserve it.
Ok I'm back and I had the funnest time ever!
All the girls were from church and they were fun girls. They all know what I am going through and its great cuz I don't have to be anything but myself and there not too stuff either so we had lots of laughs!
So we planned to go to the rumba room(a Salsa dancing place) down in Hollywood on Sunday and then in a week or so we want to go to a restaurant that has this mechanical bull you can ride.
We thought it would be great fun to bring along a camera and take a picture of me on the mechanical bull and salsa dancing so we can post it on my myspace music page since good old hubby the Sea Hag Toad lover had told DD17 that he was looking at it and was glad I finally changed my picture-whatever!
LOL Well we got more pictures for you buddy. Is that bad to post em? I mean I don't want to LB but I should be able to go do things and have fun. I mean i would rather salsa dance and bull ride with him any day but its not my fault hes more into Sea Hags right now LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
No worries I would never do anything in bad character. I keep myself pretty safe, that's why I like salsa dancing. Some people think its kinda dirty but it really isn't. Most gentlemen that ask you to dance are very respectful. Salsa is a part of the ballroom dancing so its very much an art-lots of spins, turns and things. Good clean fun. Anyways I know that he would wonder why I am not crying at home for him and would wonder where in the heck am I and with whom. Too bad not your business anymore. Plus all the girls that go with me are usually from church and even the Pastors daughter goes with us.
Anyways very glad that I planned this on my 19th anniversary, I know I had way way more fun than he did. I really had a great time.
So I guess he called while I was out and is coming to visit the kids again tomorrow. So I have decided that I want my PB even tighter even though I have had no sight or contact at all. I have now asked the kids to let him know that they are bored of the park behind the house and now to have him meet you guys and another park at the other end of the city. I dont want him parking his car in front of my house and visiting behind the house at the park then coming back and visiting more with the kids in the front yard. This should stop that.
H also sent DD17 today a text about my bank account balance. DD17 forwarded it to me and i never responded. I told DD17 tonight that if he does that again your answer to anything is IDK. So she know now to say IDK to everything humanly possible. I had told the kids that if he asks about me or what I am doing the answer is IDK but I didn't think he would text her about my bank account(its joint still). Altogether now IDK IDK IDK IDK jerk pig butt face ooops there I go again with that darn inner monologue. Heee heee hee Darn and I was doing so well.
Okay going to bed its late, I hope his ramen was cold hard and flavorless, man I sound mean don't I.
Night y'all
I hope his ramen was cold hard and flavorless,
take a picture of me on the mechanical bull and salsa dancing so we can post it on my myspace music page since good old hubby the Sea Hag Toad lover had told DD17 that he was looking at it
Yeah, show him you have a LIFE outside of his drama and that you are having an interesting and fun life without him!
Anyways very glad that I planned this on my 19th anniversary, I know I had way way more fun than he did. I really had a great time.
Hey T,
I'm glad you had a good time on your anniversary. I had a GREAT time on mine this year!! It was sensory overload, I tell ya!!
Say, you need to grab those goils and get to a belly dancing class, pronto!!
I GAR-ON-TEE you will LOVE it!!
Charlotte
Yes Yes YES put Salsa pics and Bull riding pics on your MySpace!!
If recreational activity is one of his ENs, he'll be looking at all the fun stuff you do and then he'll look at STH and, well, I think she'll come up lacking.
And because you're in Plan B, which is NOTHING about WH, you should put the pics up just to celebrate life and share your good times with your MySpace friends and family.
I dont want him parking his car in front of my house and visiting behind the house at the park then coming back and visiting more with the kids in the front yard. This should stop that.
-
fek-
t !
You KNOW my opinion about the "other business" ... YOU are starting to inspire a ton of other posters!
Keep up the good work
muah
I adore her, Pep.
She is a gem, fer shure!
I adore her, Pep.
She is a gem, fer shure!
Nothing new to report...quiet day here in Plan B land. No tears today.
Still hate Plan B, but not as angry today as I have been the last week. But still wanna strangle H. LOL
Far as I know he is visiting the kiddos tomorrow and I have told both the kids that they are to tell dad they want to go to a new park because I am sick of his funky butt in my back yard at the park and sick of his car parked in front of my house and sick of him hanging out front with the kids. I mean he has not seen or spoken to me anyway but....Time to be darker! Buh-Bye go to another park. Not gonna let you get your fix by being around my house.
Anyways off to church...if anything to update I'll pop back on Otherwise see y'all tomorrow....
Your are doing good.
Keep it up
Ok, so tell me if I am being over sensitive. H is scheduled to visit with the kids at a park away from the house as I wanted my Plan B tighter.
So this morning I guess he had a scheduled appointment in my city so he called to DD17 and said Im out front I just want to say hello so DS10 and DD17 ran outside to say hello. He did call and NOT come to the door but I just didn't like the fact that he just popped in. I mean it was only 10 minutes and he had to go back to work but it irritated me.
I had the cable guys here switching my phone line over and he asked DD17 what they were doing, she said Im not sure. I told her from now on if that happens you say you have no clue you don't know why they are here.
Anyways I knew he was visiting today, he didn't try to come to the door, but I didn't like the early pop in. Am i being finicky?
I really feel like he comes to the house because he needs to get a fix. Like he needs the feeling of home without the commitment am I correct? I don't want that. I don't want him to get a need filled of feeling like home with out the commitment. That's why I told the kids no more at the park behind the house.
And then I also informed both the kids that if dad calls you and says I can see you tomorrow your answer should not just be yes as he has lost that right, I am here raising you so your answer needs to be IDK I need to go ask mom and will let you know.
TIGHTEN UP THOSE HATCHES!!!!!! I'm gonna find every way I can make this tighter, I mean as far as visual and audio its good but I think it'll get even better when he cant be near home. It was a thought anyways and better for me so I dont need to see his dumb car in front of the house.
Okay gotta go back later.....
I think you need a formal custody plan.
Tuesdays from 4-7pm. Every other Thursday from 4-7pm. Every other weekend beginning at 4pm Friday until 6pm Sunday.
No stopping by.
No unscheduled visits unless requested through IM and agreed upon by you.
No changes to said schedule unless requested through IM and agreed upon by you.
What about, just for the next couple weeks, you hold on to your kids' cell phones? They can use them whenever you want them to, but you can screen the calls just for now, pass on their legitimate calls, but only let them talk to dad at certain arranged hours? That way he can't get away with 'just stopping by' because there's no way to tell them he's here.
I have no formal custody paperwork other than having the IM's give him a schedule. The IM's have informed me that because he is completely against using them, that I will be giving information to him but probably not getting any responses.
At this time I am not sure I want to legally go that route yet. Here's my reason. I have DS10 and DD17 full time. They know about Sea Hag and hate her guts and DD17 would probably beat her to death if she saw her. Both of my kids do not want anything to do with her and have let my H know their hatred of her.
If I legally file then he may have to take the kids to the apartment for weekends and I would rather die than send my kids there. DS10 has incurred so much emotionally over this and has begged me to not let him go there.
Many months back(Pre SAA) I asked H not to bring the kids around her and he said he would never do that. I said I would hope you would not conflict our son that way. So as of now he has no intentions of bringing kids near her ever...and if you knew my kids you would know why. DD17 and DS10 have called her every name in the book, slandered and made fun of her so bad that hubby dear knows he cannot go there. HE knows deep down inside my kids would refuse visitation with him.-, they have done it before. I personally don't think he wants the kids around her, is that weird?
So I have set a schedule sent to him. DD17 has a cell phone but I purposely have not replaced DS10 broken phone. I just now called DD17 and said I am going to be giving you a schedule of the visitation that you dad has and when he calls you say let me look at the schedule mom has given you and see if we can. That may cut it off. Since he refuses to go to the IM's he calls DD17 to see if they are free but if he must refer to the schedule it should work and divert attention off her to me for the boundary.
Think I will confirm the post football visitation schedule with the IM's.
Hi T2L - you are so strong and a real inspiration to me!
I am back in a deep dark Plan B and from what my WH told me, you will be driving your WH nuts. My WH asked if he could just hear my voice on the phone when he is speaking to the kids and did ask to see the kids at the house. I think he hoped for sleep overs and expected I would go for the night!
Plan B does have a huge affect on the waywards. My WH was not in a PA or living with the OW so I don't know what stage your WH is up to, but your Plan A was so great and I am sure he was with you so much more than the OW and LOVING his time with you at home. Him seeing the house and parking in the drive would be a huge fix for him. It probably feels like he has "been home".
Good move to change the visits to another park!
Stay dark and strong
"So I have set a schedule sent to him. DD17 has a cell phone but I purposely have not replaced DS10 broken phone. I just now called DD17 and said I am going to be giving you a schedule of the visitation that you dad has and when he calls you say let me look at the schedule mom has given you and see if we can. That may cut it off. Since he refuses to go to the IM's he calls DD17 to see if they are free but if he must refer to the schedule it should work and divert attention off her to me for the boundary.'
I think that sounds great -- just what I was going to suggest.
As long as you have a schedule that you've sent to him, you can reference it and set limits on his "boundary creep."
I think its just vitally important for you to remind yourself that you have offered visitation and if he chooses to come randomly, he just may not get to see them. But that is not your fault!!!
I set up that I would be flexible on the schedule with a week's notice. That way, I am flexible, but not setting myself up to be taken advantage of.
Keep up your efforts -- you are doing a great job taking care of your kids and yourself!
BF439
Ok Y'all here's the scoop. And I'm fully aware I shouldn't know this and I'll tell ya how I know it. First let me give you some details just in case i have not previously.
We know Dday was April 23rd, came home 3 days later(pre SAA) false recovery and has been gone from the home since May 8th. He moved in with OW August 1st. But I know he moves OW from her house to her sisters an hour away and is the city they now live in.
All of this is Pre SAA as I did not read the book until end of September. Well during the month of July I allowed H to come to the house to visit the kids 3 times a week. Well he looked God awful and dirty and not healthy and miserable. I guess he said to DD17 that he was homeless living in his car. So I called him and asked him are you homeless-which is stupid BTW because he could stay at his mom in the city where OW had just left. We all know why he didn't he would have rather lived in his car than be away from the Sea Hag. Anyways he said no he was joking. It was quite apparent he was living in his car just to be near her until they got the apartment in August. He even told a mutual friend that basically he had had no where to live for a period so I know he lived in his car.
Ok i say all that because of this. H came to visit, they went to another park away from the house-Yippee no H's car parked in front of my house and no lingering! Anyways I welcome the kids home and say did you guys have a good visit.
DD17 says yes I mentioned to dad about vacation. Well I had talked to the kids and told them I was going to see if I can take half of the tax return so I could take them on a cruise. We have been on 3 so far and DD17 will turn 18 and graduate early in March. So H says yeah well I want to go and DD17 says uh not until your single to which he replies(any guesses??LOL its very obvious hes said it a million times in Plan A) Yup I am single and I can do what I want. DD17 says no that wont be good, he says it'll be fine if your mother leaves me alone. I simply tell DD17 well I am leaving him alone so I am not sure what that means.
Okay here's the other part so the kids tell me they were saying goodbye to him and DD17 says so you going home dad? He says I don't have a home, I am a loner, and I like it(yeah sure you do, that's why you complained about being alone on Thanksgiving). I basically go to work, do my reports in the car and sleep on the concrete. And again says everything was fine we were talking and DD17 says no dad it wasn't do you think just because mom was happy when she let you over that she wasn't upset, hurt or crying? He says I know she was.
Anyways, I know I am supposed to be concentrating on me. I have no tears since Monday night, and am feeling okay. But I wonder if he is not living with her or is he playing games. The only bad thing about my H is he has told me way too much on accident and its hilarious. Oh well either way I could care less and do not in any way feel bad for him if he again is living in his car because its a choice, he could stay at his moms or man up and do what is necessary but this lady here IS NOT CAVING! Plan B is my very best friend, that at times I hate, but doggone it I will have my self respect whether this recovers or not.
Just wanted to update y'all.......
It's the games that hurt the most T2L. I know you are so strong but I get that you would rather not know anything. I have a terrible habit of reading what I am sent by WH and probably asking too many questions of my IM instead of shutting her down.
Plan B is for RnR and creating a lovely empty safe space in our minds for our true selves to venture out and enjoy the sunshine without fear and without hurt.
Don't worry about your WH. He will be taking care of himself and is trying to feed enough information through to you to make sure you are thinking of him and hopefully feeling guilty for kicking him to the kerb! Rarely do they let things slip. Being sneaky and manipulative is part of the essential makings of a wayward.
I am thinking of you and checking on you often.
Take care!
Excellent job ignoring the info he tried to pass through DD. She can see that you love her too much to place her in a role that is damaging to her.
And I hope he IS living in his car. So there.
Neakie Pooh! I've missed you! You must be a busy gurl!
Yeah who knows if he's in his car or not but in the past he has made a lot of comments that he doesn't realize he says. Whatever, its probably fog babble to make me feel guilty, which I don't.
Not much new. H visited with the kids today. Met them at a restaurant. I know that I should be happy for my kids but its so irritating! I mean my kids go visit this fake and act like he isn't cheating on their mom and isn't living with the Sea Hag. UGGG, it makes me sick!
I swear at one moment I think okay I can do this and then truthfully the next I feel screw you and I wanna slap papers on the dude, but not for the right reasons. Not because its healthy for me. I at this point would do it to piss him off and stick it to him. During Plan A he said he had listened to a radio station that said you should not get divorced because its financial destruction and you should do what ever it takes,live apart or what ever. I responded well its a good thing I'm not in this for the money. Ya know this fool would rather live like this to avoid financial destruction.
Whatever at 1 year of D-day I am truly going to asses how I am feeling-if I even make it that far. I have read many times you should never make life decisions for at least a year after the trauma. Dear God Help me I HATE HIM!
Sorry I'm vomiting again, went shopping today, saw all the families together Christmas shopping. Made me sad. {{{{sigh}}}
Anyways, he just dropped off kids. Dark Plan B day. Good for me, Yippee, and yes I am being sarcastic.
T2L,
I hear your anger.
It's ok, your allowed to feel like that.
And I see you still ahve your sense of humour
He is a creep. I hate to think you are going to do a year of plan B??? After D day!?
Oh man. I could not do it.
Well, the Harley's recommend Plan B for 2 years. I truly don't think I have that in me. But as much as I have read for any type of crisis-death, affair, etc-says to never make life decisions before one years as you are in too much of a vulnerable state. I sincerely recognize that I am vulnerable right now.
I cannot make a decision based on my present emotions, as they are all over the place, LOL. I do not want to make a decision to get back at my H as that is the wrong motivation as well. I must only make this decision if, 1. I feel God says that's enough the grace is up, or 2. I am emotionally healed and ready to live a life without my H but for pure reasons.
He truly is a creep right now a'int gonna argue that with you! LMAO But aside of his moodiness and bouts of inability to be happy, our family had LOTS of fun. He was a good man especially the last 5 years or so. The 4 of us would laugh hysterically and love was there. Because he rewrote the marriage history and told a mutual friend he wasn't happy for years I asked DD17 did daddy seem happy to you? DD17 says mom, you guys loved each other and our family had so much fun that I felt guilty sometimes because my life and family was perfect...out of the mouth of babes.
I am clinging to the remaining love I have for H. He is stubborn and IF and thats a big IF he comes out of this I know that God is truly going to have to break his will, and guess what I know he's gonna use me and Plan B to do it. Will I make it to that point? IDK. But its the thought of love that I tried and can look back with clear conscience. Yes he is pissing me off to no end with his stubbornness but I have seen on this board time and time again stubbornness broken in these walk aways. My H did lose his way, actually let me take it further, I don't think he ever knew his way but he sure is going to find it one way or another and with me or with out me thats a good thing.
Most people who met my H loved him, especially the men at church. Grown men cried when I told them. If you met my H, you just loved him and wanted to be near him as he was relaxed and had a great ability to listen to you. I know the bible says the enemy comes to steal kill and destroy, I believe thats what happened here. My H, with 15 years of church under his belt and an associate Pastor, fell and was tricked into a stupid lie. Yes he is accountable. But I am hoping I can make it to see my Prodigal H come home.
Okay gotta go to church, back later.....
Don't give up on your prodigal. I'm glad to hear you have a cord of hope you're holding onto, and well you should. If your WH stays gone, it will be in defiance of the best effort heaven has to offer.
He is a creep. I hate to think you are going to do a year of plan B??? After D day!?
Oh man. I could not do it.
He is CURRENTLY functioning as a creep, as all waynerds are.
He has a history of non-creep behavior, which offers hope that underneath the creepiness, a real man is still possible.
If her WH was never a real man (he was) then her level of hope for reconciliation ought to be much lower.
I am certain I would not enjoy a year of Plan B myself, but we never know what we are capable of until our feet are held to the fire and until we are in that position ourselves.
Because there is a history here of a previously good marriage, and there are two adorable children, I think the effort to save the marriage should be encouraged, not discouraged.
Pep
Not much to update, very quiet day here in PB town!
H never called today. Kinda weird has he called all last week and then visited for 3 days. I was guessing he possibly got irritated at information I sent through the IM's about tax time next year. If he is mad, kinda stupid he would not call his kids over it. Whatever, not like he hasn't done this before.
Anyways did a whole lot of nothing today, went to church, took nap, and ate like a fool. Sundays are the day I give myself to eat anything I want and then back to clean eating for most of the week.
No crying, trying to keep the anger down and thoughts under control. Christmas party scheduled next Sunday, thought about cancelling it as Its hard to feel super festive but I am going ahead and having it. I think about 15-20 people will be there. Kids and I are gonna bake goodies again on Saturday.
Well Im off to bed.....
Good job on going ahead and having the party. You may not feel like it *now*, but when the party is ongoing you'll be glad to have the friendship, distraction, and good company.
Then the next day when it's time to clean up, you can forget I ever said "Oh, sure, go ahead and HAVE the party, yes you really should!". Or, you can mutter under your breath as you pick up trash and do dishes and vacuum... you can mutter things about what a vile person Turtlehead is and how her ideas SUCK big time
LOL, Turtlehead
Hey T2L,
hows it going chickie???
Christmas party scheduled next Sunday, thought about cancelling it as Its hard to feel super festive but I am going ahead and having it. I think about 15-20 people will be there.
Does everybody know about your DH's shenanigans?
Guest: "Such a nice party, Trying2live. By the way, where is your husband?"
Trying2live: "Most likely with his mistress. We are hoping he will come to his senses and cut contact with her and be home with his wife and children by Christmas, but I don't have high hopes."
Trying2live: "Most likely with his mistress. We are hoping he will come to his senses and cut contact with her and be home with his wife and children by Christmas, but I don't have high hopes."
I have no problem with this.
I was guessing he possibly got irritated at information I sent through the IM's about tax time next year.
I'm not saying a word ......
[quote=Trying2live]
Trying2live: "Most likely with his mistress. We are hoping he will come to his senses and cut contact with her and be home with his wife and children by Christmas, but I don't have high hopes."
Most guests coming do know, mostly close friends from church and most of them loved him. So I can relax and not worry.
We had a work breakfast / water sports Christmas event this morning. The whole way there I was cursing it and feeling very sorry for myself about having to go when I feel so washed out and sad about my personal situation.
BUT, I had a great time. I laughed, got soaked in the canoe and enjoyed the company of everyone there.
Enjoy your party! It will be a dark cloud above you until the first guests arrive and then you will relax and have a lovely time. You derserve it!!
Hey there hi there hoe there.
Nothing new, as usual. VETS do H's become indifferent in Plan B or are they more indifferent before it starts. Just wondering, its so quiet.
I still struggle with not obsessing, and try redirecting my thoughts a lot. Thats a daily thing.
Anyways tightened up the visitation with the H and kids as he would go through the kids so I am sure he prob is once again pissed unless he is getting more indifferent by the day. IDK.
Anyways outlined the days and times and the IM's sent it to him, so now when he asks the kids can I visit they are going to tell him IDK dad check the schedule.
Anyways off to trophy ceremony and end of season party for DS10. Looking forward to it as football helped all of us. Funny i used to hate it now i love it. (I think i hated it because i am a former cheerleader who dated a football player who ended up being a complete creep in high school...LOL)
:MerryChristmas: :MerryChristmas: :wavingsanta:
Still hating Plan B tho! Man when's that gonna stop LOL
Hey T2L,
Sorry for a brief threadjack (I've been following and you're doing great BTW) but there is a new poster, Ban52, who has a situation very much like yours. I've directed her here, but she could use some moral support from you.
Tabby1,
Okay I will go look. Thanks for the compliment. Funny when you look at yourself you think your doing terribly but others see you as doing well. Weird. No thread jack, were all family now, the family of the betrayed LOLOLOLOLOL Darn I wanted in the other family, the one that is not betrayed. What luck! J/K.
Okay gonna look now....
GOOD!!!!!
Remember I didn't hear a word from my WH when I went into Plan B - from September to 2 days before Christmas when he called me at work and announced he was in the process of moving back in.
Trust that things are going on that you cannot see or know about. Hang in there.
I know I Know quiet is good, I still hate it. LOL I would rather hear the pitter patter of my Stubborn Walkaway Spouses little feet home and agreeing to conditions! Now that i could go for.
Whatever. Isn't Whatever such a lovey word. It saves you from a lot doesn't it. Think I'll start a thread on the various good ways one can use the word whatever-I'm bored can you tell? LOL
Hello there my lil B!!!
Okay everyone is lil...Lil Neak, Lil Pep, Lil Delean, now Lil B and then Lildoggie already has Lil so I can move to Lil turtlehead and Lil jayne and Lil Cat and Lil Tabby and Lil Kayla and Lil hmmmmm..... I know I am forgetting someone let me think....I'll find you.
Okay back to you Lil B!
Yes I will trust that even tho I can't see it something is happening. I mean the possibilities are endless, I may not see that the ramen is burning or maybe the Sea Hag is getting fatter, or that he now has a lifetime supply of Ramen I mean really, we can go on like this for days!
Ya know what I think, I think they truly must come up with an icon of ramen noodles cuz we know all WS's are prolly eating it up! LOLOLOL Okay I think the cold and rain are getting to my brain...ewe did you hear that it rimes!!! Well it rarely rains here in Southern Cali and its not too cold either.
This cold weather is making me wanna bake cookies only bad side is I wanna eat em too......I am leaving now because I think if I dont I may get even more retarded :wavingsanta:
Umm, lilTully? Lil BF? All those other lil plan-b-ers!! Sounds like its a little loopy out there in Cali! What you need is some good old fashioned grey Ohio weather! It's a sedative!
Anyway, I wanted to respond to your comment about how quiet it is in B. It is and its hard to keep thinking that something. anything is still going on in a Wayward mind other than "movin' on!"
But I have to think that if I am still thinking non-stop about all of this; he's got to be thinking about everything some, too. That just make sense. And where we have some comfort that we have tried to make the best choices for the family; WS know on some level that they have only made the "best" choices for themselves. That crude will have to start bubbling up soon...
Hang in there -- I'm thinking about you and all the other lil plan b-ers around the world!!
BF439
Trying 2 Live! found you. just put up my topic -- long winded of course. Keep in touch. Are you in church tonight? Lets talk dialog!
Hope you are holding your own and doing well. I had a rough day just feeling down but I have been able to turn it around. take care.
Okay everyone is lil...Lil Neak, Lil Pep, Lil Delean, now Lil B and then Lildoggie already has Lil so I can move to Lil turtlehead and Lil jayne and Lil Cat and Lil Tabby and Lil Kayla and Lil hmmmmm..... I know I am forgetting someone let me think....I'll find you.
I am THE Lil, there can be only one
HOPE!!!! I am so glad you registered! Hey everyone say Hi to Hope I have been talking with her for about 5 months now on the Divorce Remedy forum and I told her to come here and post. Will you guys all go to her thread?
She is a gem! Vets can ya do that for me?
Yes church tonight. Have some more boundary stuff I'm am trying to figure out what to do. It never ends. Will post once I get my crap together.
Hi Hope!!! I've been dropping in on your thread. Welcome.
T2L, I just wanted to tell you how proud I am of you. I see you posting on other folks' threads and your voice is one of clarity and wisdom in the midst of fresh pain. Truly inspiring. Thank you.
Hey T2L, you go girl. Oscar awards are coming out and your nominated for supporting role. whoa whoa. will keep you posted. lol
Hope
Awe man that was so fun! Man I am laughing still. Whew what a rush!!!!
I have never done anything like that before it was scary and fun!!!!! And the Oscar goes to T2L for best actress in work Place exposure roll.
Anyone need any work place exposure??? I'll call for ya and act like someone really important!
Ok so let me know what came of that!!!
Ooops, did I miss something?
Yes you did, B, and so did I.
I have NO CLUE what just happened, even after a glance over at Hope's thread.
T2L, SPILL IT YOUNG LADY!!!!!
Well my friend Hope who I met at the forum from Divorce Remedy book cooked up this great plan. Hope is pretty torn about exposure since her H is dating secretary. I told her until she decides what can we do to make the affair less fun. What kind of exposure can you do.
So Hope in all her cleverness thought of this idea. Its brilliant. So at her work there is this program where you can anonymously report things at the company with out the repercussions of revealing who you are. So she emailed me all the info and I called the OW and acted like i was the one investigating and taking preliminary info before the investigation takes place. I was pretty darn good If I say so myself. LOL
It was fun! I asked her several times if she understood the companies supervisory chain of command and regulations about inappropriate relationships between employees. Boy was that fun! The OW was shaking in her boots!
Haha...nice. I bet she was peeing in her pants!
Edit: I hope that Hope decided to expose to her WH's workplace.
I am trying to push the envelope as much as I could without actually going all the way to turn them in to expose and fire them. After the new year and seeing my family I need to make some serious decisions that will ultimately affect my family in an adverse way at least for short term.
I do know how serious this is but for today I appreciated Ow in the "hot seat".
I understand Hope, its not an easy decision, as with anything in life of great importance. I think the best part about it is should you get the courage to do whats necessary, YOU get to make the decision and NOT H. YOU get to take control of your life and not wait around for H or OW to drop bombs on you.
I really would love to see you get to go home as I know you are a family girl! The support there may be what you need plus I know your H would be miserable with you and DD gone. I think it would definitely make the fantasy start to suck big time.
Well my friend Hope who I met at the forum from Divorce Remedy book cooked up this great plan. Hope is pretty torn about exposure since her H is dating secretary. I told her until she decides what can we do to make the affair less fun. What kind of exposure can you do.
So Hope in all her cleverness thought of this idea. Its brilliant. So at her work there is this program where you can anonymously report things at the company with out the repercussions of revealing who you are. So she emailed me all the info and I called the OW and acted like i was the one investigating and taking preliminary info before the investigation takes place. I was pretty darn good If I say so myself. LOL
It was fun! I asked her several times if she understood the companies supervisory chain of command and regulations about inappropriate relationships between employees. Boy was that fun! The OW was shaking in her boots!
I wish I coulda seen that!!!!
I have to say I wish you could have seen T2L too. T2L can start a new career. She was firm, concise, and it was probably the first time that the OW was probably anything close to accountable since this started.
So DD17 and DS10 did go see H today for the visit, he ended up coming.
So I say how was the visit guys? They say good. Are you ready for this?......DD17 says daddy said he should wrap his self in a box and put his self on the front door Christmas Day and DD17 says yeah you should.
And I reply and Yeah I'll unwrap it and hand him a letter of conditions before he can even come in. LMAO
So to say the least I am going to print a copy of my Extraordinary Protection Measures for our Marriage(Conditions) to hand him should he show up at the door Christmas morning.
I will not be moved as far as I am concerned I will treat it as any other day and he will absolutely not get in unless he agrees and It is not just for my protection but my children's. He is not going to do that to them. I will also explain withdrawal symptoms to him and NOT paint a pretty picture about how much work is in recovery. This is not a game to me. I will not take him back at this point for anything less because i have already lost my H to adultery so there's no reason to lower my standard at this point. If he shows up and agrees I am going to make him call her in front of me and tell her its over and make him write me the letter too. Of course this is all hearsay but just know you guys I am ready and I'm gonna protect my kids and myself from false recovery as best I can.
I really doubt he will show up Christmas day, but if he does I will be prepared since I really feel he is not broken yet as DD17 told me what they were arguing about this morning via text. She was defending me and he was blaming me.
Anyways nutting new, getting ready for Christmas party.
Nothing else new...
Hi Hope!!! I've been dropping in on your thread. Welcome.
T2L, I just wanted to tell you how proud I am of you. I see you posting on other folks' threads and your voice is one of clarity and wisdom in the midst of fresh pain. Truly inspiring. Thank you.
Awe Lil Turtle your prouda me?!?! I gots Turtle Kuddos!
Yes fresh pain very true and daily fresh pain. Well I wasn't really posting because truly I didn't feel equipped enough or anywhere near all you guys who have posted to me, but Lildoggie said that I knew enough of the principals to go ahead so I figured I would try and help someone else because I know that I could not have made it this far without you guys and I remember every time you guys posted to me I was strengthened and I felt hope for the moment. So If I can help someone who is hanging on a string the way I was then I would try.
I'm still gonna come find you turtle when I am cleaning up after da partay.....Muah
Hi T2L, that was significant that h wants to show up at house in a box. You can always set it on fire. LOL. But at least he is thinking and all I can picture is you running outside with reams of conditions saying "sign here sign her".
I will have limited access to my computer when I go back to visit (My Mom has only 13 channels on her tv) so I have to grab a PC when I can. Will miss these boards!
Awe hope no computer access, bummer! Well keep in touch and enjoy your family, also let me know if you want me to call you on the way to the airport to act like I'm showing you some properties to rent back home cuz I'll totally put on my actors hat again...LOL
T2L
One thing to consider:
Until this man demonstrates a willingness to RESPECT you enough to honor your request to work through your intermediaries, YOU MUST NOT back down and let him in.
He will thumb his nose at extraordinary precautions as lip service he pays.
Read Sexymamabear's thread from 18 months ago and how TST came around to taking extraordinary precautions.
That's the only way you ought to take him back.
Polygraph.
Postnup - legally binding.
Etc.!
You deserve absolutely NOTHING LESS than what SMB got out of TST!!!!!
That goes for the rest of you Plan B-ers and Plan B-er WannaB's!
T2L
One thing to consider:
Until this man demonstrates a willingness to RESPECT you enough to honor your request to work through your intermediaries, YOU MUST NOT back down and let him in.
Well as of now I think he's reading the information emailed to him from the IM's, not sure cuz they don't tell me nuttin but he does not respond to them. When he tries to ask DD17 about money issues or visits she has been saying IDK dad read the email and he responds okay, but that's all i know cuz my IM's keep me very shielded. But nothing I've sent through them really requires a response. Just basic I need this much money and kids are free these days.
Truly I do not believe he will show up Christmas day, I think it was just some stupid stuff coming out of his mouth to the kids, really I do.
But if he does can I hand him the conditions page at the front door and wait to see what he says? And if he agrees can I make him call her and end it right that moment at the front door? I do know the cell phone # to the Sea Hag and can dial myself. Can he verbally say it to her via the phone and write a letter and give it to me. IDK.
I will go find SMB's thread and see what you are talking about. I have read some of it but not all the way through.
I do know I deserve the best, and I know its a new game now because pre-A I backed down to much as this was my worst fear imaginable so as I see it I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. NO more tippy toeing and NO more looking at T2L as a weak idiot. I'm not gonna do it. If he ever comes back he's gonna respect me.
A few weeks ago when I sold the motorcycles and he was here with the kids in the front yard he told DD17 lets back up because your mom is opening the garage and I don't want her to have to see me. As little as this sounds, that's the tiniest little spark of respecting me. I know that sounds dumb but he could have tried to get in my face and come around to where I could see him.
I'd be wary of him coming *on Christmas Day* or *on New Year's Eve* because I'd be suspicious of the timing. What I'm trying to say is, I'd be skeptical and think that his motivation might not be true remorse and a desire to do the hard work to build a real marriage, but rather sentimentality and nostalgia brought on by the holidays. Likewise for Valentine's etc.
I think if I were in your shoes and he showed up in a box on the doorstep I'd thank him for his gesture and send him off to write a NC letter (but NOT mail it - you want to review it first!!) and let you know (through the IMs) when it's done and he's ready to meet you at a coffee shop or something to review it.
I'd keep him at a bit of a distance at first, just to make sure he's serious and not feeling sorry for himself or thinking you'll be an easy target during the holidays.
But this is just a hunch I've got - wait and see what others say.
Totally agree. Do NOT let him get a good vibe off of showing at your doorstep. Don't let him get the grins from the kids, a smile from you, nuttin'.
He doesn't deserve it if he hasn't already prepared everything you asked for.
Best possible way to feel the effects of what he's done - be sent away on Christmas day when he's only a few steps from the door.
I am trying to push the envelope as much as I could without actually going all the way to turn them in to expose and fire them. After the new year and seeing my family I need to make some serious decisions that will ultimately affect my family in an adverse way at least for short term.
I do know how serious this is but for today I appreciated Ow in the "hot seat".
Hope.
Please.
Stop.
Tricks like this will only cause them to batten down their hatches and go further underground.
You cannot save them from effects of their adultry.
You MUST out them for real. Games will not suffice.
Big dope--he's still thinking "inside the box"! :RollieEyes: Didn't you say he was an assistant pastor? If I remember correctly and he was, then I'm going to say in plain English what I could only hint at (or avoid entirely) if he had not previously been a believing man. He must be spiritually broken before he can be safely taken back, with a repentance "not to be repented of." He needs to be sorry for his sin, not just sorry he got caught. He needs to want to know how to do anything and everything he can possibly find in order to make things right with you, not how little he can get away with to get by, get in your house, get back in your bed. Cooperating with the intermediaries would be a good sign that something fundamental was changing in his head.
SMB's thread is a long one. You probably won't have time to read it in one sitting. But it would be very educational for you nevertheless. Making a mistake on this is going to hurt just as bad, and probably worse, than the first time around so be careful. Be wise.
tl
Big dope--he's still thinking "inside the box"! :RollieEyes: Didn't you say he was an assistant pastor? If I remember correctly and he was, then I'm going to say in plain English what I could only hint at (or avoid entirely) if he had not previously been a believing man. He must be spiritually broken before he can be safely taken back, with a repentance "not to be repented of." He needs to be sorry for his sin, not just sorry he got caught. He needs to want to know how to do anything and everything he can possibly find in order to make things right with you, not how little he can get away with to get by, get in your house, get back in your bed. Cooperating with the intermediaries would be a good sign that something fundamental was changing in his head.
SMB's thread is a long one. You probably won't have time to read it in one sitting. But it would be very educational for you nevertheless. Making a mistake on this is going to hurt just as bad, and probably worse, than the first time around so be careful. Be wise.
tl
I love you TL. You are one of my most favoritest people.
Okay crapola you guys. I do agree with everyone's input and have even prayed Lord do not let this man come home until he is humbled and repentant.
DD17 said that when they walked around the mall yesterday he was weird and very very calm. she said he apologized for being nasty to her earlier in the day and she said well dad the truth is the truth and he didn't even say anything. She said he was so calm and quiet mom he was like, gay or something-IDK this is the explanation of a 17 year old.
But here is the crapola, i reviewed my Plan B letter and I didn't refer him back to the IM's. My letter just says the door to my heart and the family is open once you commit to NC and a plan of recovery.
It does not however say to go to them. I know he thinks while the A is going on were gonna to go thru the IM's and when he's ready to go NC he can come to me.
Now here's the problem, If I repeat what he told DD17 about wrapping his self in a box on Christmas and puttng his self on teh door step, DD17 will surely probably be very mad at me for passing this to the IM's and also H will be mad that DD17 shared that information with me.
Hmmmm.....going to need to address this but need to do it without including DD17's conversation with her dad...hmmmm....
I love you TL. You are one of my most favoritest people.
Who me??? No no silly bears, you guys are my favoritest peoples! I'm so glad your back Lil Dealany!!! Yes I gave everyone Lil in front, I now crown you Lil Dealany!!!
Hope urythang went well recently with yous. Like my slang....
Okay crapola you guys. I do agree with everyone's input and have even prayed Lord do not let this man come home until he is humbled and repentant.
DD17 said that when they walked around the mall yesterday he was weird and very very calm. she said he apologized for being nasty to her earlier in the day and she said well dad the truth is the truth and he didn't even say anything. She said he was so calm and quiet mom he was like, gay or something-IDK this is the explanation of a 17 year old.
But here is the crapola, i reviewed my Plan B letter and I didn't refer him back to the IM's. My letter just says the door to my heart and the family is open once you commit to NC and a plan of recovery.
It does not however say to go to them. I know he thinks while the A is going on were gonna to go thru the IM's and when he's ready to go NC he can come to me.
Now here's the problem, If I repeat what he told DD17 about wrapping his self in a box on Christmas and puttng his self on teh door step, DD17 will surely probably be very mad at me for passing this to the IM's and also H will be mad that DD17 shared that information with me.
Hmmmm.....going to need to address this but need to do it without including DD17's conversation with her dad...hmmmm....
Don't worry about having to write him another letter to include the IMs.
If he does show up in a box, just hand him a copy of the letter with the things he needs to do highlighted and ask if they are done yet.
If he answers "no" then say, "You've got a little work to do, then" refer him to the highlighted bits and then quietly shut the door.
Then you dust off your hands like Mary Poppins does and say, "spit, spot," and go about your day.
I don't care if your Plan B letter didn't specify intermediaries. He knows that's what you want and has fought against it and defied your expressed desire at every step. He insults you by blowing off what you've asked for as surely as he has directly and explicitly insulted them. If his heart were in a place
right now where he would be safe for you to let back into your home, he'd be trying to work with the intermediaries to get things fixed up. The fact that he does not suggests to me that this is still
all about him, even if he doesn't know it himself.
If he really does the present thing, he's counting on the Grand Gesture, the Big Surprise, to so blow you away that you fail to notice that he hasn't really done anything you've asked him to. He wants to be taken back on HIS terms, not yours. Beware. Be VERY ware...
P.S. Kimmy, I love you too. Thanks for saying so. This has been a very "down" week for me, and it was nice to have a wee bit of an upward goose!
Don't worry about having to write him another letter to include the IMs.
If he does show up in a box, just hand him a copy of the letter with the things he needs to do highlighted and ask if they are done yet.
If he answers "no" then say, "You've got a little work to do, then" refer him to the highlighted bits and then quietly shut the door.
Then you dust off your hands like Mary Poppins does and say, "spit, spot," and go about your day.
Okay. But he won't have any thing done as he has no clue about conditions cuz my letter just states go NC and agree to plan of recovery.
I did mention to DD17 that daddy can't just walk in that I will hand him a letter of conditions at the door. I am worried that if he does end up in a box at my door on Christmas that if I send him off, my kids will be for obvious reasons, very hurt.
I did explain to DD17 that I would be handing him the letter to protect us from him doing this again, but of course if your babies wake up Christmas morning and see there dad has come home they will be elated!
DD17 had dream about 5 days ago and told our Pastor cuz she felt God gave her the dream, then I send him away.
Don't get me wrong guys I ain't no dummy and would NEVER take him in or allow him to my bed with out the conditions, in fact I have seen on this board how these WS agree to NC come home and then do not implement everything else, so I'm not gonna go that route, I want him to complete the 6 conditions AND THEN he can come home and move into the spare room until he is through withdrawals.
Anyways I hate this, I don't want this to happen on Christmas for the protection of my kids. I don't want to have my kids end up balling when I send him away and he can't really complete anything that day because everything is freaking closed....ARGGG!
I dont think he will anyways but it's just the thought of if it does happen!
Don't worry about having to write him another letter to include the IMs.
If he does show up in a box, just hand him a copy of the letter with the things he needs to do highlighted and ask if they are done yet.
If he answers "no" then say, "You've got a little work to do, then" refer him to the highlighted bits and then quietly shut the door.
Then you dust off your hands like Mary Poppins does and say, "spit, spot," and go about your day.
Okay. But he won't have any thing done as he has no clue about conditions cuz my letter just states go NC and agree to plan of recovery.
I did mention to DD17 that daddy can't just walk in that I will hand him a letter of conditions at the door. I am worried that if he does end up in a box at my door on Christmas that if I send him off, my kids will be for obvious reasons, very hurt.
I did explain to DD17 that I would be handing him the letter to protect us from him doing this again, but of course if your babies wake up Christmas morning and see there dad has come home they will be elated!
DD17 had dream about 5 days ago and told our Pastor cuz she felt God gave her the dream, then I send him away.
Don't get me wrong guys I ain't no dummy and would NEVER take him in or allow him to my bed with out the conditions, in fact I have seen on this board how these WS agree to NC come home and then do not implement everything else, so I'm not gonna go that route, I want him to complete the 6 conditions AND THEN he can come home and move into the spare room until he is through withdrawals.
Anyways I hate this, I don't want this to happen on Christmas for the protection of my kids. I don't want to have my kids end up balling when I send him away and he can't really complete anything that day because everything is freaking closed....ARGGG!
I dont think he will anyways but it's just the thought of if it does happen!
Well then, I think we need to figure out exactly how you expect him to be if he's allowed to come home, and have it written down for when he shows up in his boxers...um...I mean in his box.
Tell in the letter lay it all out - if he says he'll do it have him sign something saying he'll do it.
Keep the paper.
I had the Wookie sign something along the lines of he'd do such and such for us. My lawyer said that while it was not admissable in court, it did show that he made promises he didn't intend to complete (if he hadn't stayed with me and we ended up D'ing).
Well then, I think we need to figure out exactly how you expect him to be if he's allowed to come home, and have it written down for when he shows up in his boxers...um...I mean in his box.
Tell in the letter lay it all out - if he says he'll do it have him sign something saying he'll do it.
Keep the paper.
I had the Wookie sign something along the lines of he'd do such and such for us. My lawyer said that while it was not admissable in court, it did show that he made promises he didn't intend to complete (if he hadn't stayed with me and we ended up D'ing).
I truly agree with what is being said here by everyone. And know its being said in the best interest of the kids and I. I don't want a false recovery, not just for me but my kids.
I think what I would like to do is hand him the letter and ask if we could talk for a few minutes. Then watch him read the letter and IF he agree-which that is a whole other ball game-but have him sign(I was thinking in blood and I can volunteer to poke-hee hee) it like you did with wookie and then elaborate further at that point. Explaining that for the protection of our kids and myself due to is false recovery this Christmas morning delivery cannot be about him or nostalgia because our kids do not deserve more abandonment and lies. Possibly further explain to him that recovery will not be easy possibly harder and if he thinks he can't do the work, don't do this to me and to the kids if he's not 100% committed. And that to show his commitment maybe he can apologize to my IM's who were only trying to help us.
IDK, man I don't want him to come on Christmas! Is that crazy most people would be praying that their WS's would. No thanks. I'd rather he come before that then he would be able to complete the things quickly on the list. IDK. Kimmy what do you think???
I know this sounds dumb but none of it gets my hopes up at all. I really have (
oh yeah can ya feel it coming....)NO EXPECTATIONS even in this lame Christmas box bull crap. I mean for the love of God man don't wait till Christmas you are not the best present to man kind, your a freaking WS. I mean I don't know what I want more Christmas morning my WS wrapped in a box on my door or a buring bag of dog doo...Hmmm...technically that may be the same thing...LMAO!
I mean I don't know what I want more Christmas morning my WS wrapped in a box on my door
You could always call the Salvation Army to pick up a surprise gift you've left for them on your front porch.
You could always call the Salvation Army to pick up a surprise gift you've left for them on your front porch.
Why yes I could I hadn't even thought of that! I'm not sure if the junk in the trunk is so bad they may refuse the pick up! I mean this box could have a lingering odor of Sea Hag coming from it!
Okay sorry, I am humoring myself.
T2L, that burning bag of poop is started to look more appealing.
Holidays do funny things to people, heartstrings, nostalgia, family -- That might get some of these WS looking towards home but its true it is a tricky time. Christmas is only one day and then the fog will engulf them again.
I do agree with you about how the kids would feel turning him away. I know my daughter would be mad totally.
You have done all the right things. Hang tight. And you could always answer the door in a sexy Mrs. Clause suit for effect before you close the door.
Well then, I think we need to figure out exactly how you expect him to be if he's allowed to come home, and have it written down for when he shows up in his boxers...um...I mean in his box.
I just wanted to quote that because it's so DARN FUNNY!
T2L, here's an idea.
Maybe have a document written out of requirements he must complete before coming home, and then requirements he must complete after moving in.
For example, before moving home he must
Write NC letter that you approve and mail.
Delete all secret email accounts.
Agree to key logger, GPS, whatever.
Find a MC or IC or whatever.
After moving home you expect
Continued transparency
Attend MB weekend
this, that, and the other.
You can meet him at the door, tell him you're glad he's ready to end his A and work on the marriage. Show him the document and tell him to let your IMs know when each of the "must have before moving home" items is complete. Once those are complete and he has communicated that *through the intermediaries* you'll talk to him directly.
After y'all have talked directly, gone to MC, had some dates, etc. then you can let him move in when you're darn good and ready.
He has to EARN his way back into your conversations, your life, your home, and your bed.
Dats pretty good Lil Turtle LOL.
Okay well he lives with OW so shouldn't he go to his moms or something while he completes these conditions.
What about Christmas day? Again, I really don't think he's gonna do it, but should he, he is going to be handed the conditions. I do like what Kimmy said about having him sign the conditions. I mean what if he agrees to it all even after i show him the conditions and paint a very difficult recovery picture and making him contact my IM's. I'm gonna post them at the bottom so's y'all can sees em.
And see if you have any other input from a coming home on Christmas perspective. I sat the kids down a few minutes ago and addressed the comment that daddy made to them about coming home in a box on Christmas day. And actually he knows we previously had done Christmas with our kids on Christmas eve-to which he commented to DD17 last week maybe I will come to the window that night. I just told DD17 then it gets moved to mommies bedroom LOL
I told them that I have to protect all 3 of us from daddy, coming home for the wrong reasons and that I don't want daddy leaving again because he was feeling sorry for himself.
I explained to them that i will be handing their dad a list that he must agree to, and all of it. I told them I will be explaining to him that he cannot be coming home because he is feeling sorry for his self and that this cannot be about him but about the family. I also explained that I will be telling him that this cannot be a Christmas nostalgia thing that there is a lot of hard work to be done and if he cannot handle it that he should wait because the kids and I cannot handle another abandonment or betrayal. I told them that I may have to send him away if he does not agree, they seemed sad but said they understand.
Here are my conditions:
Extraordinary precautions for our Marriage: Every possible precaution must be taken to erase her from our lives and make contact with her so difficult that you would have to make great efforts and great deception to even make it possible. All these precautions must me be met because you lied and went back to her a 2nd time and devastated me and the kids two times.
1ST ConditionNo contact with Sea Hag forever, period. No loopholes. Write a letter to Sea Hag explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and your intentions of marriage recovery and give it to me when you are done so I may ensure it's mailing.
To ensure No contact:Change Cell phone number, close down all secret emails and use the family email account, access to your lap top and trade phones at anytime, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties. Tell me immediately if there is ever contact of any kind.
2ND ConditionRead Surviving An Affair by Willard Harley and abide by the principals in the book to recover or marriage. Schedule Phone Counseling session with Harley's immediately.
3RD ConditionOnce precautions are fulfilled, Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
4TH ConditionSince she previously worked at your employer and everyone there ALREADY knows, I would like the both of us to go into employer and explain our plans for recovery ask them to never again schedule you in Orange county and give you a new email address and cell phone #. Have the office or manager intercept all calls for your old email and cell phone.
5TH ConditionClose down personal bank account and use family bank account. All deposits will be made into joint bank account. I will pick up all checks and no finances in any form will be given to the toad. We can do the bills together.
6TH ConditionAccountability for time forever. This means phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc. Do whatever necessary to establish trust.
Remember NO EXPECTATIONS. Instead enjoy the holiday with your kids.
I only mentioned the holidays because it took me completely by shock. I hadn't heard ANYTHING from WH for over 3 months. Then 2 days before Christmas, he called me at work and announced he was in the process of moving back home.
I was SO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But luckily I posted on MB before leaving work, and Mel said "Does he have NC with the OW?"
Oops. That didn't even enter my mind. After my fine Plan B letter, I was certain he agreed to NC. So I drove home and asked him. He had most of his things back in the house. When I mentioned NC with the OW, he told me that he was going to move home first, and THEN have NC.
If he shows up at your door (which is what he thinks he is supposed to do when he is ready to work on recovery) and agrees to your conditions, then I would let him come in. I really don't see the point in continuing plan B at that point. Plan B is supposed to get your H to end the A, it should not be a form of punishment.
I would also make it clear to the kids ahead of time that dad is not moving back home until he meets mom conditions.
I agree he needs to move out of the seahags place. My H moved out of OW and into a hotel for a couple of weeks and then into an apartment for a couple of months before he moved back in with me.
Plan B is supposed to get your H to end the A
Plan B is to give her peace and to protect her and the children from the chaos. If his ending the affair is a result of Plan B, fine... but that doesn't mean he's committed to recovery. Ask those who have had the affair end, the WS comes home, only to have their WS move on to another OP or to come home and do nothing towards recovery.
Lil B,
I have absolutely NO EXPECTATIONS, and really don't want him to come home that day. I just am aware now the way his fogged in head may be going since he said to our kids that he should wrap his self in a box and put his self on front door Christmas morning. I will get NO contact, that's it and that's then end. He's gonna cut that Hag off and agree to it ALL! If he can do that Christmas morning then Yee haw. Not sure how since everything is closed but if you want something bad enough I think if your creative it can be done. I won't let him have my Christmas or my kids with out conditions and agreeing to it. I dont care if he has to call her from the driveway while I listen, write her the letter in his car and hand it to me, he can give me his personal cell phone til the following day when he can call sprint and change the number and he can leave a holiday message on his work phone and give it to me until we can go to his employer together explaining recovery, he can give me his bloody work laptop till we go to his boss, he can delete all the secret email accounts from his laptop in the driveway, he can hand over his bank card and check book to his new account to me and the day after Christmas it can be closed. I mean if there is a will there is a way and all that can be done Christmas morning in my driveway. I mean he should be used to it hes been eating ramen there for months. LOL And I think I will have him email my IM"s and apologize for his asinine behavior-this will be a big one and will really show his level of commitment and repentance. Hey and if he agrees and does all this on Christmas morning(this would be an act of God) then how will he get all his belongings if he didn't bring them with him. Can I go with him to get his stuff or would that be a trust building thing? But again I really really think he was blabbing when he said it to the kids and I truly do not think he will do it.
Lil PM,
I agree there is no way in Hades he is coming in this house with our commitment and I will know his level of it once I give him the conditions and have a very loving and non LB'ing talk with him fully inquiring on his level of commitment and going into extreme detail of what recovery is and how hard it will be. I am going to really drive home this can't be I feel sorry for myself crap or all about me.
Can I go with him to get his stuff or would that be a trust building thing?
ARE YOU NUTZ???????? No way! :twobyfour:
Call a courier to pick it up or go with. YOU make the arrangements. Leave it all there and go buy new.
IF this happens, and that's a big IF... the biggest deal-breaker is ANY contact with OW. Right?
IF this happens, and that's a big IF... the biggest deal-breaker is ANY contact with OW. Right?
Yes mam its a deal breaker in my book, so courier or burn the crap works for me. And with the withdrawals contact on any form can start us all over again and I a'int gonna do.
But yes its a really big if. I think he was just spouting off to the kids, only hours earlier he was arguing with DD17 on how everything was my fault to only apologize to her 2 hours later. Whatever!
No ones holding any breath here and its really quite funny cuz I would be surprised if he didn't get back in his car once the conditions are handed to him. And that's whether Christmas or 2 months from now. LOL
only hours earlier he was arguing with DD17 on how everything was my fault to only apologize to her 2 hours later.
The wishy washy thing is VERY common, just so you know.
He's on the fence.
He better get off soon, tho...it'll start comin' outta his mouth before long.
And I think I will have him email my IM"s and apologize for his asinine behavior
So ya like that eh Pep??? Maybe I can talk him into slave labor for you IM's too along with that apology, or chinese water torture or walking on coals, plucking of the fingernails one by one IDK the possibilities are endless maybe something we can all watch together over some hot buttered popcorn LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
So ya like that eh Pep??? Maybe I can talk him into slave labor for you IM's too along with that apology, or chinese water torture or walking on coals, plucking of the fingernails one by one IDK the possibilities are endless maybe something we can all watch together over some hot buttered popcorn LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
I'll settle for him making you unbelievably happy for the rest of your days together.
T2L,
given that we are talking about Christmas day...
How about you ask him if the A is over, if he says yes, ask for the NC letter. Then make the call to Sea Hag and have him sign the rest of the conditions.
Then he canhand over his cell, laptop, whatever for you to lock away for the day or whatever, and then have a nice Christmas day, while making it totally clear to him that you will expect the passwords/bank account/etc etc that needs to be done ASAP to be done either later that night or the next day.
JMHO
and then hand him a christmas stocking filled with coal and poop
Call me a sucker or a hopeless romantic, but I would like to see a plan in place, where if he did show up on your doorstep Christmas day, that you could have him agree to it all if he was willing, to do everything possible to do on a holiday where EVERYTHING IS CLOSED :RollieEyes: where if he did it he could spend the day with his family, and go home to his mom in the evening.
This would need to be suitably hard, though as much as I love footrubs and groveling obeisance, would not necessarily mean making nice nice with the IM's.
Seriously, it may be a while before he's ready for that, but if he'll talk to Steve he may be able to start toward R even so.
So, at the very least, I am thinking......
1. Agree to all your boundaries. Signed, definitely. In blood - I'll leave that up to your discretion.
2. Break up with the Sea Hag on the spot, via email or text messaging which you get to send. Shoot, maybe even both! There is no such thing as overkill when getting rid of a tumor of that size.
3. Having a family member or friend go and pick up all his stuff from the apartment, WITHOUT HIM!!!
4. Give you his phone until he can get the number changed.
5. Delete any and all email accounts, myspace pages, etc. etc., or if it's not possible to do that immediately, provide you with all passwords and preferably let you change them so he only has access through you.
6. I will probably think of more, but if he is willing to take this much action right there on the spot, you can probably take the risk of letting him spend one day with the family, making it SO SO SO clear that if he does not follow through at any point, you will immediately cut all contact with him again.
:MerryChristmas:
There's a rule in dog training, that you want to always set them up to succeed, not to fail. And you always want to leave a way out, you don't want to back them into a corner. So along those lines, you don't want to put so many conditions that it's impossible *for a reasonable, repentant wayward* to achieve. I agree with everyone saying to ask for whatever could reasonably be done considering the time and date; and him going home to his mom's at the end of the day seems great.
Nothing new to report, still Dark Plan B day, no contact or sight of me officially 5 weeks today. I am proud of myself however that I have not broken my Plan B darkness in any way. I have been very careful, sending kids home 1st to be sure he was no where near home to pick them up. When he picks up the kids I stay away from all visible areas so he cannot even catch a glimpse from the window, I do not answer any phones and I am silent when the kids talk. No texts, no emails, nuttin but dark! I know its supposed to be for me but truly what drives me more is punishing him by it. LOL I know wrong mindset.
Still hate it by the way. I know were not supposed to think about them, but man truthfully it's hard not to obsess and turn to a rage-a-holic in your mind! I mean I gotta stay on myself.
So anyways Christmas Party at my house after church tomorrow. About 35 people, should be nice and distracting, at least that's the hope. Well friends and fellow Plan B'ers were almost through the Christmas season, whew. I am certainly ready for the new year. Feel like this has been the worst year of my life. I know that one day, I may look back and maybe be proud of myself but for now Buh-bye 2008.
G'night y'all.....
This would need to be suitably hard, though as much as I love footrubs and groveling obeisance, would not necessarily mean making nice nice with the IM's.
You, my darling daughter, are being an angle. (That would be
obtuse and not
acute, in case you're curious!:RollieEyes:) Who cares if you intermediaries get foot rubs and groveling obeisance (well, it's Christmas-I guess you can DREAM), anyway? It doesn't even really matter to any of you personally that you were insulted. There was no genuine harm, no foul done to any of YOU.
But to his wife? There was gross disrespect to her wishes, defiance of her request to implement a system that would ease her pain and give rest to her heart, total disregard for cooperating in something that would help her survive a disaster of his own creation. Getting his own way was all that mattered to him. There wasn't even a distant second place open for his wife.
So, from my point of view, 60 years in the making and admittedly jaundiced, allowing him to come home without his making a
specific renunciation of, and seeking forgiveness for, those ways in which he displayed contempt for his wife (of which his treatment of the intermediaries is only one) is a set-up for another disaster. Think of tst. When he finally recommitted, he did it TO THE BONE. There wasn't any hold back, no self-serving justification, no hanging onto any part of his wandering. And even then, recovery has been difficult for them at times. I don't think it would even be POSSIBLE with an allegedly-
former wayward, who still was trying to say, "I didn't do anything wrong," about any part of the rebellion.
So there, my angel angle. That's why I disagree with you.
tl
I do understand! I do see what you are saying, and agree that he needs to be repentant and humble.
VETS, I have read so many books that I can't remember but I thought it was SAA that had an example that the WS did not apologize, tho I do expect one. Gotta go to church I'll look again later.
"
Humble" is the key here. The resistance to the intermediaries has its root in pride, an unwillingness to humble himself in front of "others", especially of YOUR choosing. That's why an unwillingness to acknowledge, and seek forgiveness for, his treatment of your selected emissaries, would indicated to me that the pride is still there--that sense of entitlement to having things HIS way, that helped lead to the affair in the first place--still alive and well. It may be in camo. It may be hiding behind a tree, or in a bouquet of red roses, or under the lid of a Christmas box with a ribbon on top...but
it's still there, and you'll see it again sooner or later. You and your kids don't need THAT!
tl
I do understand! I do see what you are saying, and agree that he needs to be repentant and humble.
VETS, I have read so many books that I can't remember but I thought it was SAA that had an example that the WS did not apologize, tho I do expect one. Gotta go to church I'll look again later.
I do not need or want any apology from WH.
I am but a a tool for this marriage -
My ego is 100% untouched by anything he does - I'm with Neakie on this.
If WH returns to THE MARRIAGE but hates the tools
that helped bring about his pain in plan B - I'm fine with that. Really, fine. It will be temporary.
WH needs to be repentant and humble and showing respect for the damage he's done to his FAMILY.
Then I disagree with both of you. I never suggested, nor do I believe, that humbling himself regarding the intermediaries has anything to do with any of you, your needs, or your feelings. He would be humbling himself to HER, in a place where he had previously exalted pride and self. I'm not telling her what to do, but I am unalterably of the opinion that what he does regarding this matters to HIM, and therefore, to them.
tl
Then I disagree with both of you. I never suggested, nor do I believe, that humbling himself regarding the intermediaries has anything to do with any of you, your needs, or your feelings. He would be humbling himself to HER, in a place where he had previously exalted pride and self. I'm not telling her what to do, but I am unalterably of the opinion that what he does regarding this matters to HIM, and therefore, to them.
tl
My sister RN,
I actually agree with you more than I disagree -I just don't think this is the hill to die on - and if they do get to recovery I just might drive over to see them in person, and in person, I am pert near irresistible
in person, I am pert near irresistible
I can attest to that! Me and Drew Carey.
in person, I am pert near irresistible
I have no doubt!
I am also fully convinced of your sense of your own personhood, and could never be persuaded that it depended on whether or not a stranger apologized to you. Maybe not anybody else either. I'll think on't.
tl
I just don't think this is the hill to die on
I wouldn't die on that hill, either, if it were only about words to be said. But I think I would die on the hill of "Do you or do you not care about what matters to
me?" If I were choosing a hill to die on, of course. I guess it sticks with me right now because basically that's what I'm doing in my own life. Different greenery, different flowers, different goat trails...but the same hill.
tl
"
Humble" is the key here. The resistance to the intermediaries has its root in pride, an unwillingness to humble himself in front of "others", especially of YOUR choosing. That's why an unwillingness to acknowledge, and seek forgiveness for, his treatment of your selected emissaries, would indicated to me that the pride is still there--that sense of entitlement to having things HIS way, that helped lead to the affair in the first place--still alive and well. It may be in camo. It may be hiding behind a tree, or in a bouquet of red roses, or under the lid of a Christmas box with a ribbon on top...but
it's still there, and you'll see it again sooner or later. You and your kids don't need THAT!
tl
I absolutely agree, and have said to some friends I don't even think the relationship with the OW is very fulfilling and that its the pride that is going to be a deal signer for us. Its sad because its the affair that would be easier if this does not recover and not a pride issue.
I pray continually that God humbles him, that's the only way and It'll take humility to agree to conditions.
Christmas party is over, last guests just left, Thanks lil turtle for making me have the party, I really did enjoy myself. I love entertaining and used to do it all the time before this all happened but stopped for the most part. So I enjoyed myself and now that I am ready to start cleaning I think I will hunt you down, just kidding, you get a free pass go card since I had fun. Yippee!
Well I see that my thread was busy today. Well I have several thoughts and the posts today. I appreciate all the perspectives too. I think that ultimately my H will have to be humbled to even accept the conditions. There is NO WAY he could even do it with out true repentance and humility, the pride would not allow the agreement. So I think that I won't make him apologize to the IM's, at least at first.
Several thoughts on that. I think the IM's go into this knowing that the WS's are absolutely going to be against this. I think they are not surprised a bit and do not take it personal. I think the IM's are more focused on the goal than sometimes us BS's are. They understand that they are fighting for your marriage with you and this allows them to not take it personal. I know had they met Mr. T2L that he would have loved them and they would have loved him. He is not the man I knew, as with all WS's. I think that if he does agree, there actually may be a time where he will apologize to them and HE may actually need it for his OWN recovery more than I or the IM's if that makes sense.
My H, pre-A hated hurting people if he could help it, but then he had the other side where he would get irritated and have lil bouts of anger. But then he could never really be happy. It was strange to me as I am the happy cat of the family. He even told DD17 your mom is just so positive and happy go lucky and IM JUST NOT THAT WAY. Its like he didn't know how to shake his unhappiness and I think eventually he blamed me and the marriage for it and maybe even his kids a little. I don't even think he understands this about himself yet, but think he may one day. But I would love nothing more than my IM's to, by chance of a miracle, get to meet and or see or speak with my H. I welcome that!
All I know is that I am changing a little each day and becoming freer and less motivated by fear of him leaving or retaliating in anger. It is NOT easy and I have anxiety a bit when I have to set boundaries by providing info to the IM's but like I teach the kids you become brave when you do it afraid, so that's what I do. Am I totally free in the fear dept? Not yet but hey baby steps are still steps. He won't be able to come back and just walk in trust me on this guys, T2L is not the T2L that walked on eggshells before. I have already had my biggest fear happen so its not like I can lose anything. I have much to gain by understanding that I am worthy of respect and agreement to conditions and I will accept NOTHING less. It may be tricky should he pull the Christmas stunt-But again I really really really think he was spouting off and that's great because I am prepared so no biggie.
So half way through the party, DD17 is texting her dad and she says we are having a Christmas Party. Well apparently he did NOT like this at all-he was mad he was not invited-uh am I missing something LOLOLOL.
He told DD17 he was not invited and DD17 says well of course not mom is not talking to you. And he says well that's not my brilliant idea its hers. And DD17 says of course its moms idea but mom would love for you to be here but you need to go NO contact. Then this i guess pisses him off and he says NO one is gonna control me and I can talk to who I want to and your mom is brainwashing you all. DD17 says mom doesn't need to brainwash me for me to need to know that 3 people in a relationship is wrong. He says to her your mom lives and breathes by me(I guess he thinks this because I am a full time stay at home mom he takes care of??) he gets mad and says just be my daughter and never talked to her again.
I know I know I am not supposed to know this stuff my curiosity got the best of me and I asked her what he said.
Anyways Dark Plan B...No contact.
Whatcha all think about all that? I think he's pissed cuz I am still living my life and all his friend were here.
Oh boy, well DD17 said dad is coming over tomorrow to use his tools. I said great well let me know which ones he wants and I will leave them out for him.
This will not be good for him, I think he is still mad about party and he is using tools as a reason to come.
He told DD17 your mom is trying to control me, and I will never live under control!
I feel like it sometimes but I just don't want to share so If that means I am controlling then okay I guess.
T2L, I have been following your thread off and on. I just have to tell you that your daughter is AWESOME! My daughter (13 at the time of her dad's affair) is a strong one, too. I was so proud of her resolve to stand firm during tst's affair.
You done good with that one! She knows what she needs to know.
He told DD17 your mom is trying to control me, and I will never live under control!
What a joke. He doesn't even see that he IS living "under control" of his own pride, selfishiness and stubbornness. He is BOUND and CHAINED by them. If he ever breaks free, he'll figure out that is no way to live.
WH needs to be repentant and humble and showing respect for the damage he's done to his FAMILY.
That's my feeling, too.
I don't let what an ACTIVE waynerd says offend or hurt me.
They speak with forked tongues, anyway...even their insults are off base and imbalanced.
Nope.
I just want him to utilize the crowbar we FedExed him to pull his head out of his bahooba.
If that doesn't work, I know of a skilled proctologist.
He told DD17 your mom is trying to control me, and I will never live under control!
This is OWs words he is parroting back at you. IRL, pre-a, he probably would have never even THOUGHT this.
Typical waynerd/op speak.
SSDD.
All I know is that I am changing a little each day and becoming freer and less motivated by fear of him leaving or retaliating in anger.
I have an assignment for you: Type this, print it out on your computer in big, fun letters (I like Comic Sans), and tape it on your bathroom mirror so you can see it every morning and every night.
I think I'll do it, too.
btw, if I were you, I'd find a way to put ALL his tools outside somewhere so he doesn't have an excuse to 'break into' the house or garage or whatever to get to 'his' possessions. He seems to be the kind of person who might use this as an excuse to break through that barrier you've put up.
T2L, I have been following your thread off and on. I just have to tell you that your daughter is AWESOME! My daughter (13 at the time of her dad's affair) is a strong one, too. I was so proud of her resolve to stand firm during tst's affair.
You done good with that one! She knows what she needs to know.
SMB,
Awe thanks. She is a strong one. She can say anything to her dad, things I have never or could never and she does not care. She says I have lost respect for him. I think she visits him out of pity, its kinda sad. She is not mean to him when they visit, this is just how it is in her head. I am very proud of her. She's gonna graduate a few months early too.
He told her that I am trying to be close to you but your mom is brain washing you. Last night when we went to bed(D17 and text each other from each others rooms LOL) I say you know DD17 you are welcome to be close to your dad. She texts back no thanks, I might be nuts to, and I sent her a silly response, well myabe just coconuts and she laughs. I think when he said you mom lives and breathes by me she realized even further that he is totally of his rocker. She read the text and her eyes got big and she was like OMG and she said he's nuts and texted him dad you sound crazy.
Ya know I wonder after responses like yesterday if there is any chance. I hate this and what he's done to the family.
Is this man gonna get it? Can I make it to that point.
SMB, feel free to post to me any time, everyone refers to you here very highly. I have started to read your thread and just in the beginning pages of it but others have referred me to your story to help me.
I just keep hoping and keep going.
Cat,
Yeah I know I really need to put it up for days when I don't feel so strong. I am a visual person to so it really would help me LOL.
I am going to gather some of the tools in a bit and leave then out front. I just remembered that he is working in my city today so I am just getting things together and I'm gonna get out of here.
This is OWs words he is parroting back at you. IRL, pre-a, he probably would have never even THOUGHT this.
Typical waynerd/op speak.
SSDD.
Really, you think so. I don't know why it never dawns on me that SHE is saying things to him. I mean they must right? I know call me naive.
But then he couldn't really tell her how mad he was about not being invited to the party tho. I think he was really mad about not coming which I really don't get. I really don't get that. I mean like what, your just gonna show up like you dont live with the Sea hag?!?!?! Why would you want to go? He tells DD17 well you all have fun at my expense and DD17 says what are you talking about dad its a potluck!
PM,
No he truly does not see it. He with all his heart thinks that I am controlling him. He has said it so much I sometimes I scratch my head and wonder if I am. The pride is full blown, I mean it must have been there pre-A some level right? Sometimes I cannot believe how far he has fallen.
Yesterday at the end of church DD17 and I were up on the Altar. DD17 has decided to sing with her momma again, I love it! I would love to train her and have her fill in leading for me but believe it or not in that kind of setting she gets a little self conscious so hopefully she won't quit after a month again. Anyways were standing up there and she whispers to me, mommy remember last Christmas before Sunday church service? She says remember daddy took an offering to bless the Pastor and his family and kinda spoke to the church about blessing him because of all he does? I said yeah I remember, funny how things change in a year ha DD17. We both just looked at each other and frowned.
PM,
I know your H was kinda similar so if you or he has any words of wisdom for a worship leader and fallen associate Pastor, really feel free to elaborate anytime.
Hey I wanted to ask you all to. Its seems to me that you all are pretty much church goin folks. Did all your H's return to church? I would hope that one day he would return back to church but I can't imagine how hard that would be and if he could do it. Is this important in your book guys?
My ex never did return to our church. Sad. And that is one of the reasons why I doubt his sincerity when he says he is so sorry.
We were leaders of the "Young Married" fellowship group. My ex was a leader at the mens' retreats, and in all the sports things, and I led a recovery group. We had been members for 18 years.
When I exposed his affair, the pastor let him know that he was no longer welcome at church until he came in and talked to the pastors. He never did.
Okay.
I'll say it.
cha-cha-cha-CHICKEN!
BWAK!
I had a cha-cha-cha-CHICKEN, too.
It took over a year for the Wookie to truly grow his huevos back and face my parents.
So DD17 and I go out to shop so we are not home if he comes for tools. He calls DD17 and says hes in the area can she visit and where is DS10.
She tells him that she is shopping with me and that DS10 is with a friend. Do you know he made no mention of those tools he said he needed to come by and use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course not he prob never needed them in the 1st place he was just pissed he didn't get to come to the Christmas party.
Anyways its really retarded. The only time he wants to visit the kids is if hes in the area, if he's not then he doesn't. Really annoying!
Anyways, dark Plan B day, no contact. Yes, I still hate it! So annoying how stubborn a person can be. I mean is he happy?? I do wonder but then think how on earth can he be??
Okay need to shut up......Anyways I emailed a pic to faith for the MB photo album so you alls can have a picture and connection. I looked you all up and now I know my IM's and urbody who helps me!!!!! Off to to grocery shop.
tst returning to church was one of the actions I required before he could come home because it would demonstrate his willingness to humble himself. My list also included fully disclosing all his lies to both our parents, a few other family members and close friends. His willingness to do that would demonstrate his repentance of his sin and his desire to give back the respect I had lost in other's eyes becaused of his lies.
I also felt us returning to church as a family was critical to our recovery. The affair was a spiritual attack on our family and the sooner those church relationships were re-established, the safer we were.
tst was very willing to do all those things immediately, and I was not willing to accept anything less that everything I said I needed.
But tst is not your ordinary FWS. He was completely broken by God. I consider what he experienced similar to what Paul experienced when the scales fell from his eyes.
All I can suggest is decide what you NEED. What actions could he take to demonstrate the CHANGE OF HEART you need. Start with the character and it will lead you to what you need to require of him for admission back into your life.
A verse that helped me understand how my Christian husband could become something so unrecognizable:
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
James 1:13-15
My husband's sin was full-grown and our marriage was dead because of it.
This verse helped me understand the path my husband needed to take to return home and be restored as a husband, father, and leader:
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Cor. 7:10
Godly sorrow was the #1 character on my list. I used this verse to understand the difference between worldly sorrow (sorry I hurt you) and Godly sorrow (grieving over the sin and its destruction).
I knew that my husband needed more than restoration with me, he needed it with his children, his fellow believers, and most importantly, his God.
tst returning to church was one of the actions I required before he could come home because it would demonstrate his willingness to humble himself. My list also included fully disclosing all his lies to both our parents, a few other family members and close friends. His willingness to do that would demonstrate his repentance of his sin and his desire to give back the respect I had lost in other's eyes becaused of his lies.
I also felt us returning to church as a family was critical to our recovery. The affair was a spiritual attack on our family and the sooner those church relationships were re-established, the safer we were.
tst was very willing to do all those things immediately, and I was not willing to accept anything less that everything I said I needed.
But tst is not your ordinary FWS. He was completely broken by God. I consider what he experienced similar to what Paul experienced when the scales fell from his eyes.
All I can suggest is decide what you NEED. What actions could he take to demonstrate the CHANGE OF HEART you need. Start with the character and it will lead you to what you need to require of him for admission back into your life.
Whoa! Okay so did he laugh you out the door or become angry when you showed him conditions? Man truly your story must be a miracle of God, I am just freaked out. Well Im sure you read that my H was an associate Pastor, and I know that what happened was absolutely a spiritual attack. In fact in prayer 1 month before Dday as I was praying I heard that an attack was coming against the family to steal the call of God. We were being raised to have this church handed over to us in the next year or 2, my H had just started bible college too.
It is exhausting but you give me hope. I think If I put that as a condition he would flip the heck out! Was TST really stubborn, I mean really really stubborn? Did he have any anger issues?
I am standing but man its hard, its really hard, but from what I hear recovery is worse. How long was your plan B?
there actually may be a time where he will apologize to them and HE may actually need it for his OWN recovery more than I or the IM's if that makes sense
I agree with this. I just think he won't be ready for a ways down the pike. But I totally get what Mom meant about it being about his attitude.
Give your DD a big hug - she takes all his gaslighting and blows it up in his face! And don't worry about it yourself. Until his rectocraniotomy occurs, nothing he says will be recognizable as distant cousins of logic or sense.
5 weeks woohoo!
Give your DD a big hug - she takes all his gaslighting and blows it up in his face! And don't worry about it yourself. Until his rectocraniotomy occurs, nothing he says will be recognizable as distant cousins of logic or sense.
5 weeks woohoo!
I have let DD17 read the messages from you and SMB and I think it's great cuz it comes from outsiders and not from me.
Yeah I know, its like I know I am not supposed to expect logic or sense and yet I do. I guess we all do since we all operate that way so its hard to train the brain to say hey expect absolute nonsense from this human being.
Its like you actually have to make yourself expect nothing normal from them.
I'll get it sooner or later. Anyways after his retarded behavior yesterday I am feeling like I won't need to worry about that Christmas morning package he said. LOL The part that really burns my buns is that 2 days ago DS10 says mom do you think dad will really wrap his self in a box and come home. If you could feel the anger in my blood, whew! I mean come on don't make stupid comments like that in front of children, it gives them false hope. So I had to say DS10 I really don't think that he will and I am really upset that he would say something like that.
Woohoo are you crazy! I hate this bloody Plan B. LOL
Ok this is really bad but I had to mention whats been running through my mind.
I really wanna call the Sea Hag and tell her that during my Plan A that he cheated on her at least 4 times a week and blow there relationship up!
But then I don't want his funky butt coming home for that reason.
Ok I said it.
Ok this is really bad but I had to mention whats been running through my mind.
I really wanna call the Sea Hag and tell her that during my Plan A that he cheated on her at least 4 times a week and blow there relationship up!
But then I don't want his funky butt coming home for that reason.
Ok I said it.
You know you aren't going to do that!! She wouldn't believe you anyway, but you already know that!!!
Charlotte
:MerryChristmas:
You know you aren't going to do that!! She wouldn't believe you anyway, but you already know that!!!
Charlotte
:MerryChristmas:
I know I know I just want her fat nasty Sea Hagly self to suffer like I am!!!!!
But then I don't want him back because of that I want him back because he chose it....Uggggggg. Yes that is whining you hear.
You know you aren't going to do that!! She wouldn't believe you anyway, but you already know that!!!
Charlotte
:MerryChristmas:
I know I know I just want her fat nasty Sea Hagly self to suffer like I am!!!!!
But then I don't want him back because of that I want him back because he chose it....Uggggggg. Yes that is whining you hear.
Okay, we'd better break out the cheese then!
Yeah I know, its like I know I am not supposed to expect logic or sense and yet I do.
That's your Vulcan side taking over.
And like Spock, you must shake your head a little and say, "illogical" to yourself every time you even TRY to apply logic to a waynerd.
And yes, I'm a geek.
I already know.
That's why the Wookie is perfect for me.
Whoa! Okay so did he laugh you out the door or become angry when you showed him conditions?
He said, "I told you I'll do whatever it takes and I meant it."
His transformation was undeniable.
Man truly your story must be a miracle of God, I am just freaked out.
Yes, it was.
Well Im sure you read that my H was an associate Pastor, and I know that what happened was absolutely a spiritual attack. In fact in prayer 1 month before Dday as I was praying I heard that an attack was coming against the family to steal the call of God. We were being raised to have this church handed over to us in the next year or 2, my H had just started bible college too.
I had a similar prayer incident. In a women's Bible study with close friends just weeks before OW/old GF walked into his business, I had asked for prayer for our family. I said something about feeling like worldiness was seeping back into our home and needed tst to take a lead. So a dear friend prayed that God would do "
whatever it would take to turn tst's heart back toward home." I now believe that prayer was from the Holy Spirit, who knew where tst was headed.
It is exhausting but you give me hope.
If you believe it is spiritual warfare, do not give up hope on your marriage. I became very hopeless, even while my dearest friend was telling me God had told her to be hopeful for us. I told her I had no hope left...he was not coming back.
I believed God COULD do anything, but I also knew that sometimes He chose to not perform those miracles we deserately pray for for His own reasons.
tst missed our littlest's birthday. The man I knew could not have lived with himself. That was when I lost all hope. It was a pivotal moment for me. Shortly after, I allowed myself to have an affair. It was just weeks before tst returned. The timeline is beyond freaky to me.
I think of me back then, like Peter walking on the water, walking in faith, keeping my eyes on God. Then for one brief moment I looked down, and realized I should be drowning. And so I did.
I think If I put that as a condition he would flip the heck out!
Only you can decide what you are willing to accept. I had been through so much. We had a marriage that those closest to us envied. He was a great husband. A close friend of mine kept telling me, smb, you KNOW he loved you. We ALL saw it. It was REAL. Don't let satan cause you to doubt.
Was TST really stubborn, I mean really really stubborn? Did he have any anger issues?
His personality would definitely include stubbornness. He is a strong willed man who can make just about anything happen when he puts his mind to it. He was also admittedly prideful.
Anger issues? He never once spoke disrepectfully or hurtfully to me throughout our entire relationship...until the affair. Yet he did have anger. Anger he carried from being raised by an alcoholic father and abusive mother. He never allowed himself to target his anger at me...until the affair...then everything was because of me.
I am standing but man its hard, its really hard, but from what I hear recovery is worse. How long was your plan B?
Although I longed for the protection that would come in Plan B, I never made it there. I had planned for it and was waiting for two issues to be dealt with. I was probably a week or two away from Plan B when tst came home. Emotionally, I was WAY overdue.
I had no Plan A left in me, so I read Dr. Dobson's Love Must Be Tough, and followed that as best I could. I had blocked tst's access to me as much as I could until I could do an official Plan B with letter and all.
Our story inspires even me, not because of anything I or tst did, but because of the greatness of God in it all. There is so much more I could tell you about our recovery that is evidence of God restoring my husband's heart and soul. But that would take up way too much space on your thread.
You have some great people on your thread, just as I did on mine. You are a strong woman working a great plan. Keep doing what you're doing.
T2L, my access is sporadic (to put it mildly) while visiting family and travelling and playing hostess during the holidays, so I'm just catching up on the last several days of your thread. You said something a few pages back about your WH being unhappy, and you thought he blamed you and the family for his anger. I think that you are 100% accurate.
Furthermore, I think that his willingness to blame others for his unhappiness, combined with his pride and stubbornness, make him a hard core wayward right now. He is entrenched in his sense of entitlement and blamelessness. "Nobody tells ME what to do" "T2L is trying to control me" and so forth just illustrate how self centered and prideful he is.
IF he has it in himself to learn humility, your M will be much better than before. You'll have the old H back except he'll have learned to accept responsibility for his life and the consequences and repercussions (both good and bad) of his decisions and actions. He'll be a more whole person.
OTOH if he continues in his pride and selfishness, that is a cancer you do not want in your family as it will destroy all that you love.
I know you hate Plan B. Given your WH's current state of mind, Plan B is definitely the place for you to be. Kudos on being so totally dark.
Kudos also to your DD17 who is shouldering more burden than a person of her age should have to - and doing it with grace, strength, and conviction. I think her responses of "I don't know Dad, check the email" is perfect. When she answers for you, or asks you questions for him, he gets a little bit of a "fix". It is a positive thing all the way around that she has taken herself out of that loop.
And as an aside, Neak and thndr are officially two of my favorite posters. They have an agile vocabulary and a wicked sharp humor. I find them insightful and quite entertaining to read. They should consider co-authoring a book. I'm serious.
God had told her to be hopeful for us.
When the world around me had turned to chaos and EVERYONE was telling me to GET OUT and GET DONE...God told me to "be still, quiet, and wait."
I listened to God.
But BOY! Was it hard.
God had told her to be hopeful for us.
When the world around me had turned to chaos and EVERYONE was telling me to GET OUT and GET DONE...God told me to "be still, quiet, and wait."
I listened to God.
But BOY! Was it hard.
I told my friend I couldn't hear God anymore.
DUH! Who did I think was speaking through her!
Turtle, she always helps me with my books. She's great! (So is Neaksis.) They both add so much.
Turtle, she always helps me with my books.
And then the
stupid editors take out some of her (and MY) best ideas and lines!
At least here, the only ones who can truly edit me are the mods, and I try to avoid putting myself in that position since I can't actually pee on my posts to mark and protect my territory
properly.
Neak and tl--complete and unabridged!:RollieEyes:
T2L, my access is sporadic (to put it mildly) while visiting family and travelling and playing hostess during the holidays, so I'm just catching up on the last several days of your thread. You said something a few pages back about your WH being unhappy, and you thought he blamed you and the family for his anger. I think that you are 100% accurate.
Furthermore, I think that his willingness to blame others for his unhappiness, combined with his pride and stubbornness, make him a hard core wayward right now. He is entrenched in his sense of entitlement and blamelessness. "Nobody tells ME what to do" "T2L is trying to control me" and so forth just illustrate how self centered and prideful he is.
Hello Lil turtle, it sounds as if you are having WAY to much fun this Christmas season!
Yes WH was unhappy, he never actually said it but, how do I explain it, I felt it. Now that I look back at ALL of our pictures, family trips etc I can see it on his face plain as day. Its really heart breaking. He came from a bad childhood, his mom was a cheater too, had many men, men who wanted nothing to do with the boys and then the last man, the one she stayed with the longest, was a raging diabetic alcoholic who chased them around and was belligerent all the time. Yet when he was sober he was the only man that did like the kids and paid attention to him.
Just after Dday WH was talking with his oldest brother, who he cussed out and said he never wanted to talk to again a few weeks later, said Mr. T2L you have been angry since you were a child.
No when I say angry, he didn't run around us everyday screaming or mad at us, he just had these moments off and on where he would get set off and then throw something. He never hit us or anything like that.
I with all my heart don't think my WH even knows he is unhappy or has he even known. I used to try and bring it to his attention(Pre-A) and he would say don't Dr. Phil me. He had blinders on to what was in his own heart.
We, like SMB, had a good marriage aside of that. People that saw us interact thought you guys are so cute. We would hug and laugh in public and I thought we were all happy.
I would definitely say he's got entitlement bad, really bad and I know he is full of pride now to really bad. That really scares me more than all of it because he could throw away everything because of pride.
I always thought he was humble but now in hindsight he had lots of pride and I think it came to the rescue of insecurity and low self esteem. But if you saw him you would NEVER know it.
Yes he blames me and still continues to do so, it is mind boggling, I mean I wasn't perfect, but I always give everything I have to all that I do. I catered to this man hand and foot and did everything to try and make his life happy. Now i see clearly why I did this, I did it because inside I think I knew he was not happy and If I could just do absolutely everything and be as perfect(one of his complaints-i was perfect) then surely he will be happy.
My Pastor said I think he has blamed you all his life for everything. You were the strength of the family. He's about to find out its not your fault and who really had the strength.
IF he has it in himself to learn humility, your M will be much better than before. You'll have the old H back except he'll have learned to accept responsibility for his life and the consequences and repercussions (both good and bad) of his decisions and actions. He'll be a more whole person.
OTOH if he continues in his pride and selfishness, that is a cancer you do not want in your family as it will destroy all that you love.
I am hoping God humbles him, that is my daily prayer, I cannot do it except by using Plan B as tool for God to use. He is behaving like a monster but he was at one time a fairly decent guy who provided for us, kept us protected, took his family to church for 15 years, served as an usher for 10 years and drummer at church for about 10 years, served under a national minister for 5 years as head of security, he had whit and humor that had the kids and I daily dying of laughter, he hugged us lots and kissed us too. He just had this underlying thing. Does that make sense?
I know you hate Plan B. Given your WH's current state of mind, Plan B is definitely the place for you to be. Kudos on being so totally dark.
I know Plan B is good, I just miss him very much, but that man is gone and a new man will have to come out of this. That's the only chance. I just hope he doesn't harden his heart so much that even God can't reach him. His protection right now is his pride, but he doesn't realize its hurting him. And truly I think he is soooo angry that I am not caving. He knows I HATE conflict and will almost do anything to avoid it. I apologized many times during the marriage when I shouldn't have(in my quest to make him happy). I think he is out of his mind mad that I have not caved. But yet he knows that I stand strong when its a righteous thing and I will not cave. He knows this and I think it makes him crazy that I am not going to change my mind.
Kudos also to your DD17 who is shouldering more burden than a person of her age should have to - and doing it with grace, strength, and conviction. I think her responses of "I don't know Dad, check the email" is perfect. When she answers for you, or asks you questions for him, he gets a little bit of a "fix". It is a positive thing all the way around that she has taken herself out of that loop.
DD17 is very strong girl, she got it both from mom and dad. Its sad before this she was closer to her dad as mom was the one who did the right things. But the neat thing is she told WS several weeks back in defense of mom, that dad you know I was closer to you before all this right? But now I am closer to mom because you do not live here. Well I can tell you that now I know my mom even better and this is not control dad this is not a game that she is trying to play against you. I know my mom and its not a game. He told her that my stupid game is making things worse and making him never want to come back....did anyone elses WS say that?
And as an aside, Neak and thndr are officially two of my favorite posters. They have an agile vocabulary and a wicked sharp humor. I find them insightful and quite entertaining to read. They should consider co-authoring a book. I'm serious.
I know its freaky how big a vocab they have! I keep my darn dictionary on the desk just in case. Truly you guys are brilliant writers and perspectives are very valued here too!
Guess I should shut up now since I think my explanations is pretty long......
Yeah I know, its like I know I am not supposed to expect logic or sense and yet I do.
That's your Vulcan side taking over.
And like Spock, you must shake your head a little and say, "illogical" to yourself every time you even TRY to apply logic to a waynerd.
And yes, I'm a geek.
I already know.
That's why the Wookie is perfect for me.
That's right! Yay, Vulcans!
You are going to have to pick another Vulcan, though. Perhaps Sarek.
Because:
"I am Spock."
Charlotte
People that saw us interact thought you guys are so cute. We would hug and laugh in public and I thought we were all happy.
I would definitely say he's got entitlement bad, really bad and I know he is full of pride now to really bad. That really scares me more than all of it because he could throw away everything because of pride.
Yep. Your WH reminds me a lot of mine in this way. And the sense of entitlement...the ARROGANCE...is very apparent, seems even stronger now.
People change all of the time and some change for the worse and never look back. It took a while for me to accept that but it's true.
Charlotte
Yeah I know, its like I know I am not supposed to expect logic or sense and yet I do.
That's your Vulcan side taking over.
And like Spock, you must shake your head a little and say, "illogical" to yourself every time you even TRY to apply logic to a waynerd.
And yes, I'm a geek.
I already know.
That's why the Wookie is perfect for me.
That's right! Yay, Vulcans!
You are going to have to pick another Vulcan, though. Perhaps Sarek.
Because:
"I am Spock."
Charlotte
Okay. I am T'Pol.
Vulcan logic AND smokin' hot bod!
He told her that my stupid game is making things worse and making him never want to come back....did anyone elses WS say that?
Mine
Well my friends, another successful Plan B day, dark as can be.
Today is actually exactly 8 months of D-day. I can't believe that its been 8 months. (Really longer as the man I knew died 2 months before i hit d-day so really its been 10 months.) I guess I thought at the start of all this that it would be over by now, not sure why I thought that but I did. It still baffles me that it is not over really.
Trying to keep control of the thoughts. DS10 went to friends house to play and sleep over which is really nice as I need just a bit of time to be just me since he home schools now. So I did some chores and DD17 and I baked. We made peanut butter cookies, snowballs, buckeye balls and sugar cookies. I have been good so far trying not to eat to many.
So he talked to DD17 tonight as DS10 was away. She said he had said so I guess we'll schedule a separate visit for us then(DUH!!)and she says yeah. Then he says, so maybe I will act like someone else and dress up like Santa and come over on Christmas. DD17 says yeah except your not someone else and she laughs. I just can't believe he has gone thru all these holidays and anniversary with No humbling in sight. Now my prayers are humble him Lord. I wonder can God reach him before I lose grace.
I have been reading SMB's thread, its very enlightening especially if you're thinking on being lax in the conditions part. I felt so bad for her false recovery especially since she was so done and then God renewed her heart to keep going. I am not going to be lax its all 6 conditions and that's it. I have nothing to lose since he already lives with her.
Anyways tomorrow night the kids and i will make dinner and they will do mom presents. Normally H is here but I think we will be fine. I will miss him, but I will enjoy watching there faces and mentioning that its Jesus's Birthday!
I have conditions ready and printed if he should pull the wrapped box or santa gig, but all aside I really do not think so too much pride right now to do it so I am not really worried just prepared.
Its sad how one person can cling to pride out of their insecurity and use it as a protection measure but the pride is really not protecting them but only hurting them. Sad.
So anyways I'm off, Happy 8 months d-day anniversary to me. I am being a smart a$s. Theres nothing Happy about it! Hee Hee.
Happy 8 months d-day anniversary to me.
Anti-versary I think.
You are doing so well, I am proud of you.
And just cos its Christams Eve for me..
:MerryChristmas:
Today is actually exactly 8 months of D-day. I can't believe that its been 8 months. (Really longer as the man I knew died 2 months before i hit d-day so really its been 10 months.) I guess I thought at the start of all this that it would be over by now, not sure why I thought that but I did. It still baffles me that it is not over really.
Most men tire of the affair around 18 months. They might not end the affair at 18 months (stubbornness) but that's approximately when it starts to get old.
Did your WH started his emotional or his physical affair about 10 months ago?
Edit to add: timelines are important
Just checking in to say hi. If anybuddy needs me for something, just call. (I do mean with an actual phone.
)
DS11 was attacked by a dog yesterday morning, so I was gone all day and won't have much time to sit at the computer, either. The doofus was trying to break up a fight between our dog and a neighbor dog, and it didn't work so well. He's better today, but may need to have a followup at the clinic. If not, then on Friday.
So I will be available, just not surfing the net.
:MerryChristmas:
Pep,
I am not exactly sure as she worked in the office of his employer. I think the emotional thing was stirring about last year at this time(December) then they had an all hands meeting I think In January where he told a co-worker "our eyes connected and we had a connection" LOL dude this is not a movie
Anyways, I think about 1 year so for into the EA and it went Physical in the last week of February.
But this is my fear, he said pre SAA that he felt bad for her she didn't need more problems and I kinda felt during Plan A that he was half out the door but didn't want to hurt her, I feel he's going to bear responsibility for her and not for us. He said in Plan A he didn't want to hurt anyone anymore and I said well the kids and I are hurting and he said I know but time has to take its place....jerk.
By the way I did a bad thing, i know I am going to get 2X4'd I just had to know!
So I looked at the cell phone bill that was available a few days ago online. I compared it to the one I printed out during Plan A, they have doubled there calls. In Plan A he didn't really talk to her all that much.
One day he called her 6 times in 2 minutes!
I know I shouldn't have looked cuz it only made me sad. I hate it! They are just being this happy family-funny tho the 2 times I said to him IDK and something about your NEW family he got pissed and blew up they are not my family you guys are. Yeah okay buddy it sure doesn't look that way.
Do you ever just ask God why did this happen to me!!!!
Anyways Happy Christmas Eve y'all! :MerryChristmas:
I found a good recipe, and hope your IM can send it to hubby -
A one dish meal with all the food groups. Easy to make and very inexpensive.
Ingredients
1-1/2 lb Ground turkey
2 c Water
2 packages Top Ramen (any flavor) w/ seasoning package
2 c Frozen Mixed Vegetables
1/4 tsp Ginger
2 tbl Green onion, chopped
Preparation
Brown meat in large 10" skillet; remove from pan and set aside. Add water and both packages ramen noodles, 1 seasoning packet from noodles, frozen vegetables, and ginger to skillet; bring to a boil. Reduce heat, cover, and simmer 3 minutes. Stir in second seasoning packet, browned meat, and green onions; cook 3 minutes more. Serve immediately.
Sad thing is it kinda sounds yummy!
Now B, you aren't trying to be nice my lil WS and send yummy recipes are you??? Don't you know we only send yucky recipes?
But this one is so versatile!!
One could have it everyday, and just change the turkey to tofu, chicken, pork, fish, beef. Imagine the variety!!
This could be true but it still seems way too generous besides I don't think that's what Sea Hags eat. Actually not sure what Sea Hags eat. I was thinking she could eat my dust!!!!
:MerryChristmas:
One day he called her 6 times in 2 minutes!
Musta been a fight.
SOMEBODY kept hanging up and he had to keep calling her back!
Even if it wasn't a fight, consider how realistic calling someone 6 times in 2 minutes is. I mean, seriously, that cannot be maintained. And once it is done - she will expect it and when he can't keep it up (no pun intended), she will be hurt and/or angry.
Fox
WH74,
Yeah I was thinking it was kinda weird myself, so uncharacteristic of my H. He never called me that much, said I called him a lot-yeah ok maybe 1 time a day to say hello. Anyways it seem awfully paranoid or frantic to me. One can only hope....
So I am feeling just a bit down, wasn't sure if I could totally escape it. Trying to reel it in for the kids. Tonight, Christmas Eve I will do presents with DD17 and DS10 for the 1st time with out H. I am going to do all in my power to enjoy the time. For me it helps if I give myself a time to cry, its like it gives me strength for the moment and then I cry later. So I have given myself permission to cry after the kids go to bed.
Its the first time since I was 14 years old that I will not be spending it with my H.
Its so hard to wrap my mind around the selfishness and then think he probably bought OW a really swell gift.{{{{Sigh}}}} I just can't understand. I know there were things that I could have done better, but overall I am a great wife and mom. I am in pretty good shape, I exercise and take care of myself, I always had make-up and perfume on every time he came home, when he came home the house was clean and dinner was ready, I am pretty attractive a catch for even him, I am intelligent, I love God, believe in doing whats right and just. WHY WHY WHY! I have seen a pic of this OW. She is fat, Un-godly, obviously not wise, obviously has no character, she is not in shape, by all his eating of top ramen and complaining about doing his own laundry she is not domestic and in beauty she can't hold a candle to me and I say that really with humility. We had a good family, he was the broken one. So what screw your life to be happy and end up miserable? For her? ICK ICK ICK!
I am trying to keep it in perspective as at least until anything is legal is filed I have my kids for all Holidays and for me its un-negotiable until we have to get attorneys involved. I want the kids to celebrate every holiday just the way they always do.
I am venting so I can release a little bit of frustration to be able to get through the evening.....I will make y'all proud I will smile so the kids will have a wonderful time....I can do this.
Lord Jesus humble my H as only you can, you humbled Apostle Paul, a hugely arrogant man, then surely there has to be hope that you can humble Mr.T2L.
And give me grace to keep going...
Don't give up. You have to believe that it is harder for your hubby than it is for you. Have a good evening with your kids.
Exaltation Through Humility
by Steve Arterburn
Men, Jesus Christ is first and foremost the object of our faith. He’s also our primary example of what the life of faith looks like.
For instance, consider Christ’s humility—particularly the way He relinquished His will to the Father. Philippians chapter two says our attitude should be the same as His. Though He was truly God, He didn’t demand or cling to His rights as God. Instead, He made Himself as nothing. In His incarnation and life on earth, He took the humble position of a suffering servant. He lived in perfect obedience, yet died a criminal’s death on a cross.
And because of this humility, the Father raised Christ from death to sit at His right hand—a position of absolute honor, glory, and power.
But whatever you do, don’t miss the progression: Jesus’ humiliation preceded and precipitated His exaltation. Humility was a key element in Jesus’ life as He accomplished the Father’s will for fallen humanity.
If we’re to surrender to God and His will for us, we need to be humble as well. Jesus didn’t pray solely for His own will. He humbly prayed for His Father’s will to be done. We, too, ought to pray, “Father, I want your will, not mine.” Men, this is the mark of humility and the beginning of real spiritual renewal.
Trying2live
this neaks H i found this and thought of you'r H.
we will pray for you and your family.
i have somemore stuff to say to you
but i have to go and rescue my father in law right.
just remeber the lord loves you very much
Trying2live
this neaks H i found this and thought of you'r H.
we will pray for you and your family.
i have some more stuff to say to you
but i have to go and rescue my father in law right.
just remember the lord loves you very much
Hello AJ,
Thanks for thinking of us and thank you for your prayers. Yes by all means I would love to hear anything from the AJ and Neak's family. Good luck rescuing your father in law, I'm sure he's glad he's in good hands!
:MerryChristmas:
Don't give up. You have to believe that it is harder for your hubby than it is for you. Have a good evening with your kids.
Okie Dokie Lil B, no giving up for T2L.
Oh brother! So ya wanna hear? READ IT ALL If you can.
Well the kids and I opened gifts tonight and had a nice time. I cleaned up dinner and told the kids I was going to take a bath. So I turned on some worship music and popped into the tub and cried like a baby quietly for 1/2 hour and pulled myself out of the tub put on some jammies and washed my face and came out to check on the kids.
DD17 was on the phone arguing with H. I sat and listened a bit and when she hung up I said how did that all happen? I told them to expect their dad's call because i would be in the bath tub.
Then he said whenever I got mad your mom controlled me and wouldn't let me get mad to by myself.
Well she said that H texted her if they had opened the presents yet and she said yeah. He told her it would have been nice if you all could have gotten over yourself and let me come and DD17 says look you need to leave your girlfriend how hard is that to understand its real simple dad. DD17 says don't you get it you have a girlfriend and when you get rid of her then my mom will talk to you. Then he says well I am very bitter at your mom, she told our pastor, my family, our friends I mean I know she was embarrassed and it was embarrassing to myself as well to but I have bitterness towards her for this, and you guys are my concentration right now not your mom. Then he said I was never good enough you guys never accepted me and DD17 said what you sound nuts your nuts dad we were always so happy when you came home. Then he said your mom is annoying all my friends hate her and think she is annoying and I never got to go to the bars and bowling. DD17 said bars? But your married?
He then told her that his brother(who has been in full support of me) said he was sick of me and is sick of hearing about it. He then said to DD17 that It would be so much easier if she communicated with me and DD17 said just talk to the IM's and he said NO. Then he says well what she is going to go like this for 10 years and DD17 says heck no she's not going to wait 10 years. DD17 then said well then dad divorce my mom then, he responds well that is financial destruction and you guys will lose the house and DD17 says well my mom is willing to do that if she needs to.
DD17 then says I hate the Sea Hag and don't ever bring me around her or I will beat her down and go ballistic on her and he says I don't expect you to like her. He told DD17 that you mom not talking to me is making me hate her even more.
Then he says I hate Christians, every situation they go to the heart.
Then H says your mom controls me this is a game and I have my rights, its my house I should be able to visit you and live there I pay the bills and DD17 says nope mom did some research and I think if you have been gone for at least 5 months your not allowed to just come in.
SOOOO.... I heard only about 2-3 minutes of that live but the rest of it DD17 told me when I asked her what the heck happened. During that 2-3 minutes I almost grab the phone and cussed him out and went psycho but I held myself.
{{{{{{{{{{{SIGH}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
As I cried in my bath tub i cried and prayed for God to deliver my family i cried out to God and then this.
First of all he wants to go bowling??? He says bowling is gay and when the kids asked him to go bowling he says no. He says all his friends hate me but yet during Plan A he says he is a loner and has no friends.
Yes he did not have much free time and that was an area I needed to work on, I had a fear that if he did go to bars with friends he would cheat. I am embarrassed that I did not encourage and only discourage the hang out thing. I wonder if this caused my marriage to fail. But again what does a married man need to go to a bar for??
I always accepted him so I don't know what he was talking about, I did however try to get him to be more optimistic and it may have come as a DJ, but he was such a downer but I guess I could have entertained the idea that his negativity was justified.
Yes he would get mad and my intention was not to control but to calm down and diffuse the situation and maybe I should have just exited the garage or area and let him stew. I can see how he thought this was control, I never meant it to be, I just wanted to try and bring a positive spin to it, I am embarrassed of that too. So now you all know the areas of my dirt.
So another question any Lawyers in California? Do you know if a H leaves the home for 7 months can he just walk in because he pays the bills? Don't worry locks changed the day I booted him out May 8th!
I am trying guys and I fighting to stand in the gap for this man, I am praying in gut wrenching pain.
So, post away....
I'm not sure about the answer to your legal question.
I am embarrassed that I did not encourage and only discourage the hang out thing.
The hangout thing is vastly overrated. Your best time should be spent with each other, and lots of it, too. Quantity and quality both.
Maybe once in a great while, one of you might want to go do something NOT BARS with a trusted same-sex friend, but this should be the exception and not the rule.
Do not be embarrassed for wanting what you are right to have: the very best recreational companionship your H had to offer, and to give him the same in return.
You're really beating yourself up over what happened in your marriage. Any BS needs to find out what went wrong and where they can improve, but you're stressing over little things he has probably made up or at least exaggerated.
The feeling while in an A is a poison, but it's like a drug. When Satan gives it to you, it numbs your way of thinking. Pretty soon you hate pretty much everybody; God, your spouse, and of course the OP is going to support you in all this. They don't really know how you were beforehand.
Since he was an Associate Pastor at one time, Satan's attack is going to be even harder, and so will the attacks on you.
I have some fuzzy memories of trying to make up reasons/excuses to be angry with Neak during that time. It was easier than taking my own responsibility for what was happening.
With his background, your WH knows that he is supposed to be the head of the household, and that if there were problems, he should have been active in talking about them and helping to fix them. From reading your posts, it sounds like you were making a really big effort to be a good wife, and he was not doing much for you as the minister of the house.
Hearing him say that he hates Christians, you obviously know that's not him talking, but Satan's drug that he's under. By choice yes, but it affects everything he says and does. It's my personal opinion that until he really gets down on his knees and gives his heart to the Lord, he's still going to keep sipping on Satan's little drug.
As I was reading your last post, Proverbs 18:7 came to mind. "A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul."
Nothing good can come from the mouth, or mind, or words of a person that's corrupt.
DD17 is a very amazing young lady, and loves you dearly to stand up to her father respectfully but firmly. That shows that she has Christ in her heart, because she wants to do what's right and good.
But my sister in Christ, keep this in mind, with me being a FWH. By me giving my heart fully to the Lord, Christ has changed my way of thinking toward my wife and my family, and my spiritual life. So it can be done, if your WH will do what he needs to do.
I'm going to stop babbling, lol because it's getting late. Please don't give up. Just keep praying and bringing your troubles to the cross, laying them down for Christ.
Good night, and I'll post some more later. Merry Christmas.
Since when has your WH been truthful lately? He said all those awful things to his daughter (disgusting!) HOPING that she would repeat them to get back at you. He is ANGRY that he is missing out on his cake. He's acting like a 2-yr. old. You know, if you guys actually recover, he won't remember acting like this.
I've told my DH some of the things he said while he was a wayward and he is appalled. He doesn't remember all of it.
Your WH is railing against the boundaries you have set.
Ticks me off that he tries to put your daughter in the middle though.
Just remember, God is in control. Don't try and figure out the whys, you'll just make yourself crazy. I know it hurts, especially at this time of year. God sees your tears.
I think it's actually interesting that he was spouting such things that are *obviously* not true, as if he was trying to convince himself... and that he said he hates Christians... at the same exact time that you (and others?) were praying.
I pray that God soften his heart, and call him back into the fold. In this celebration of Christ's birth, Who came to redeem and save us from our sins, may your husband be humbled and see his sin.
I have no such memory problems for AJ's attempts to blame me for stuff.
For any newer people who haven't dredged up the old threads, here is my favorite wayward quote from during the affair.
"Now I [expletive deleted] hate everyone in the world, and it's all because of YOU!!!"
Hard to believe that came out of the same person we all know and love now? Well, God is a God of miracles!
And I totally agree with him - your DD is incredible and deserves a standing ovation. I have a secret suspicion she's related to Pep and Melody both.
:MrEEk:
Good Morning All!
Merry Christmas to you and Happy Birthday Jesus! Blessing to you guys!
Thanks to everyone who posted and took the time to read yesterdays nightmare.
Well I woke up this morning, DS10 in my bed still, have tried to get him out but it is a nightmare. So we just woke up he rolled over to me and i grabbed him and said Merry Christmas son! He said Merry Christmas mom. DD17 is up but ran in the shower before I could tell her.
AJ, thank you so much for you post. I know these things but it is great to hear from you, if that makes sense. It gives me hope as hearing you I would never ever have thought you were once a walk away, truly what a transformation. I can only hope the same for Mr. T2L. Were you very very very stubborn?
Neak, thanks as always, you story is a blessing and your posts are a treasure to me! Shoot i treasure ALL of your posts...Lil B, Lil Turtle, Lildoggie, Lil Neak, Lil thunder, Lil Jayne, Lil SMB, Lil PM, Lil queenie, now Big AJ, Lil Kimmy, Lil Pep....I know I am forgetting more, forgive me its early here in Cali.
PM, I do agree, he shouldn't bad mouth me to DD17, I a m not sure how that got started. I think dD17 was really mad that he should have been here last night so she was snotty to him telling him she should have been here and he went into it about being all my fault. Again all my fault!
Jayne, Yes I was praying and crying out to the Lord! I said Lord I just don't deserve this what have I done to deserve this, Lord deliver my family and then bam!
Well, gonna get ready to go to visit family this morning, Hope you all have wonderful Christmas! I'll post tonight.
:MerryChristmas: :happynewyear:
Lil Thndr
(Big Thndr sounds better, but it also sounds alot like Neakie-poo getting coal in her stocking next year.)
Lil Thndr
(Big Thndr sounds better, but it also sounds alot like Neakie-poo getting coal in her stocking next year.)
Big Thndr sounds a lot like Neakie-poo hoping that coal (I wrote "cola" the first time) is the ONLY bad thing she gets in her stocking next year!!! Or even sooner...
tl
:MrEEk: :MrEEk: :MrEEk: :MrEEk: :MrEEk:
Merry Christmas T2L!
Your WH sounds just like they all do. Like PM's FWH, my FWH doesn't remember some of the worst he said. Wish I couldn't.
Keep the faith.
T/J - Neak - how is your son doing?
T2L, would you consider sitting down with your daughter and practicing some interactions with her father? She is being raked over the coals with him because of the Plan B, and while I admire her fighting for you, it is doing decades of destruction to her. You just have no idea the self-hatred and guilt and doubt she's piling up inside for choosing sides, for helping you, for letting you in on what he says, for being his 'voice', just on and on.
I don't want you to stop Plan B, but I wish you could find a way to help her see that it isn't her job to defend you OR herself, and that there is no guilt in hanging up on her father.
Help her act out some possible conversations she might have with him, so she'll be ready the next time he tries to manipulate her. Kids really need this acting out thing, cos they don't have our experience to know what's ok and what's not ok. She'll love you for protecting her that way.
T2L, I think Catperson brings up an important issue.
I think it is good that your daughter has been strong enough to stand up for right and wrong. And your WH needs to see that he is destroying more than just a marriage.
When my daughter was challenging her dad during his affair, I tried very hard to let THEIR relationship be THEIRS. I did not protect him from the consequences of losing respect and admiration from his daughter. He tried hard to pull me into THEIR relationship and get me to cooperate with him manipulating our children into believing his fog crap. He would get royally pi$$ed when I refused to cooperate.
My daughter refused to visit or even talk with FWS for a time (and they had been VERY close throughout her life). I told her I would not push her into seeing or talking with him. But I also told her that no matter what, he was important in her life and that she needed him. I told her that in time, she was going to NEED to have a relationship with him because it was important FOR HER. She balked at that. And that was OK. She had anger and hurt probably as deep as I did. She needed time. But I wanted her to know that at some point, I did expect her to re-establish a relationship on her terms. I wanted her to not feel guilt (like she was betraying me) when the time came that she wanted to let her guard down again with him. She needed to know that there relationship was between them and would not affect my relationship with her.
Your daughter needs protected from the DRAMA that WS is drawing her into. And you need protected from it. He is using her to get to you...and it is working. But it WILL take its toll on your daughter.
There is enough damage in THEIR relationship all on its own to deliver consequences for him to see that he is destroying more than he thinks he is.
I suggest you just simply tell your daughter that it is your job to protect her and that you want her to tell WS that she is not willing to discuss you anymore.
Well back from the family visit, went pretty good up to a point then H was again being a [censored]. He did not contact the kids until 1PM and via text to DD17's cell phone asking how it was going and if they liked there gifts. DD17 said yes we our things. He then told her well tell everyone I said Hello. DD17 looked at me like what???? And she said dad I don't think that would be a good idea everyone is already sad that you are not here with family. He responded once again this proves what I am talking about that your mom should not have told everyone. He is a jerk.
But overall the kids had a great time seeing cousins and I am glad I did not stay home.
I just read everyone's recommendations and I will talk with DD17 tonight and discuss what you have mentioned and maybe the roll play too.
DD17 told him yesterday, dad do you think I am stupid I do have a brain I do have my own thoughts.
DS10 has been a bit upset with his dad the last 2 days over the situation, and he heard DD17 talking to dad so he is now mad as well. They are supposed to visit tomorrow. I have no idea if the kids want to go we'll see.
Thanks for the help guys, I'll take of it tonight when we get settled in.
Opinions please, I want to sell my 15 year anniversary band and I want to flush my wedding ring in the toilets. Is that mean? I just feel like the wedding covenant is broken they have no meaning anyone and I feel like if he does come back which I can barely see at this point I would want a new rings and renewed vows. I think I will list them on Ebay. I may use the money to start an investment account in my name. I have nothing at this point. Is that wrong?
Off to the bathtub to relax...promise no crying tonight... :MerryChristmas:
If those rings keep reminding you of your sad situation,
I mean, you are to be thinking (good) thoughts of you and your personal recovery-- not dwelling on things you can not change now-- if these rings are a trigger... I think it would be healthy to... put them away in a safe place.
and do your best to forget about them for the current. It does not mean you have given up- it just means that -- you need to focus on other things.
Your daughter sounds like an amazing young lady.
I am impressed with your holiday party, your positive spirit with your kids and God. I was very angry (still found out I kind of still am) at God for what happened to me. I am impressed that you don't blame.
Congratulations on a great plan B thru the holidays. It had to really su*K and you still did well.
Remember, you shouldn't make any drastic decisions right now that you might regret later... I would hold off on selling the rings. You can always sell them later; you can't always get them back should you change your mind. You could put them away in a safe place, out of sight... or you could think of it as saving them for later, for your DD, maybe in a different setting or as a necklace or something. I would just hate to see you regret selling them.
If those rings keep reminding you of your sad situation,
I mean, you are to be thinking (good) thoughts of you and your personal recovery-- not dwelling on things you can not change now-- if these rings are a trigger... I think it would be healthy to... put them away in a safe place.
and do your best to forget about them for the current. It does not mean you have given up- it just means that -- you need to focus on other things.
Your daughter sounds like an amazing young lady.
I am impressed with your holiday party, your positive spirit with your kids and God. I was very angry (still found out I kind of still am) at God for what happened to me. I am impressed that you don't blame.
Congratulations on a great plan B thru the holidays. It had to really su*K and you still did well.
Lil Barbicat,(Sorry I give everyone Lil)
Well I actually never take out or see the rings, but I just thought about it and was like they are a meaningless symbol of what used to be a marriage covenant so why keep it? Sell it and "IF" we recover he can buy new ones. I don't ever think about the rings ever really but how can I put them on again. If our marriage has to start over and become new then I feel I want a new symbol of our love.
I try to think about "me" during this lovely plan B but mostly it seems like I am using all my energies to stand in the gap and intercede for my H and marriage. Almost seems hard to focus on me. I don't know if that's just me or if its a true burden from God that he has place on me or what, but that just feels like the way I am being led.
I am so sorry you have had or still have angry feelings towards God. I do not get mad at him as I know he had nothing to do with the attack against my family. The bible says that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy and that's where this comes from. I believe God in his goodness tried to stop my H tried to correct him and guide him but that the influence of the enemy overwhelmed my H. My H did not as the bible says, resist the devil and he will flee from you. So with this circumstance I choose to direct the anger towards the correct person responsible, the devil.
I remind myself that though the whole world can pass away God will still remain and nothing can take that from me. God is life, Mr. T2L is not life. I sure do love my H, it sure is hard, as pain makes you want to hate in return, but what would the purpose of becoming bitter do for me? It will only poison me so I fight to not allow that bitterness to take root and it a'int easy, at times I just wanna be angry and bitter and I feel it and its at that very moment I run, not walk, to my bedroom close the door and kneel before God and give him that pain and seek his face and allow him to pour love on me so that I am able to stand and that he will hear my prayers and that my prayers will not be hindered because of my unforgiveness.
I can't see recovery right now, I truly can't but I can see a God who took the Apostle Paul, a murderer of Christians, and turned him around miraculously to become a voice of God and write 3/4 of the new testament. I can see a God who got the attention of Jonah(that's my H to a "T") and he fulfilled his call. I can see a God who nothing is impossible and is sovereign and I remind myself that my H is a child of God too. I see a God who never gives up on us or none of us would have access to heaven. I see a God who made a way when there seemed to be no way and redeemed all mankind, so I guess If I can keep my eyes on God he can take of recovery, whatever that may mean-either marriage or recovering myself. I know he will not leave me nor forsake me so he won't leave or forsake my H. Even if grace one day leaves me God will pursue my H all the days of his life to bring him back to Christ.
God loves you Barbie and this was not his plan for your life, but God is a God of congruent planning! He always has 2 plans running at the same time and He is never caught off guard. He will absolutely get you to the place he wants you to. Yes it hurts for all of us, and he can take each of our pains. Christ bore our pain so we would not have to, He was mocked so we wouldn't have to be, He was abandoned so we wouldn't have to be so all we have to do is lay it down.
I need to shut up cuz I am babbling. Anyways made it through Christmas.
I am looking forward to 2009, I want to leave 2008 behind.
T/J - Neak - how is your son doing?
T/J response from tl, since Neak is busy in the kitchen. Are you wanting to know the status of the actual wounds, or the ostentatious invalidism of the victim? :RollieEyes: Oops! Am I giving myself away?
His hand is very swollen and looks deformed, but the wounds are not inflamed at all. The knee is closing well, too, which is good because it was fairly wide and they didn't suture it shut because of the risk of infection so I was worried that it would heal slowly and leave a big scar. He looks good enough, woundwise, that I took off his ace bandages, etc. and told him to leave all his punctures and rips exposed to air until bedtime. That kid would argue with a post, and he was reluctant to part with his bandages, both for security's AND drama's sakes, but do I
really need to say who won in the end?
We went to sing in the nursing home today and he walked around with his large bandaged hand displayed prominently up in the air, and a stiff-legged, hobbling gait "because I can't bend my knee." Then he came home and bragged to someone else that he could sit down on the floor and play a game "because I can cross my legs now." So I told him that he couldn't claim both being able AND unable to bend his knee, so I expected him to start walking like a regular human being now and not Frankenstein's monster. Are there soft, cuddly grandmas in the world? Not here, at any rate.
Long answer.
Short answer: He's doing fine, if you ask me. If you ask him, he is severely disabled but
hopes someday, in the
far distant future, to be restored to health and vigor once more.
tl
I've taken to calling him "Handi-moto", aka "The Hunchhand".
I think it's much funnier than he does.
I would want a new rings and renewed vows.
Yup. The second Christmas after my DH was home, he surprised me in front of the whole family with new wedding rings. He started by giving me one small package, I opened that up and it was directions via a poem on where to look for my "gift". This went on about four times in different places in the living room until I finally got to my real "gift". By this point, I was dancing with excitement. I opened it and it was a beautiful set of rings. Everyone in the room had tears in their eyes because they knew our history.
We haven't renewed our vows yet though because the one time it was supposed to happen, he was going to "surprise" me at church on a Sunday morning in front of the whole church. Thank goodness I got wind of it and put a stop to it. Who knows what I would have worn that morning or if I would have even washed my hair! LOL. I want our renewal vows to be a big shindig because our first wedding was so small. Maybe we'll do it on our 35th.
So as for your rings, if they don't mean the same to you anymore, I wouldn't get rid of them (they still mean SOMETHING!), but I would just put them away. I still have mine and I'll probably end up making another piece of jewelry out of them.
Yup, after all, that's what you did with your marriage - took the same material and made something new and better.
Opinions please, I want to sell my 15 year anniversary band and I want to flush my wedding ring in the toilets. Is that mean? I just feel like the wedding covenant is broken they have no meaning anyone and I feel like if he does come back which I can barely see at this point I would want a new rings and renewed vows. I think I will list them on Ebay. I may use the money to start an investment account in my name. I have nothing at this point. Is that wrong?
It is not "mean" to flush your rings down the toilet, but, don't do that.
I kept my wedding ring in my car's ash tray. I thought this was a perfect place to symbolically place what I considered "burnt waste".
The covenant is broken. You are correct.
I did not know if I would want renewed vows or a new ring ... but in the end, during recovery, I did not want either. I have my reasons, and my reasons are suitable for me and quite possibly not applicable to others.
So, just put the rings somewhere and forget about them for now.
I bet you that your WH has not flushed his ring down the toilet. He has it stored somewhere.
QUESTION for every betrayed wife:
Did your husband get rid of his wedding ring when he was wayward, or did he just take it off and put it aside?My WH wore his ring - it was a week later I DEMANDED he remove his ring because he wore it while he ****ed her , and it was offensive for me to look at it on his hand.
He removed it for a few days - then slipped it back on and said "I am married to you." (pissed me off at the time, but actually impresses me today)
Today is our D day anniversary by-the-way. I feel GREAT!
Agree with everyone on the rings. Put them away. You really have no idea what you will feel like in recovery. The day I took mine off and put them away, I could never imagine wearing them again.
I planned to sell mine, as well as a 7-diamond journey necklace he gave me 3 months before his affair. He told me each diamond was for each of us and our children. I was also going to burn my wedding dress.
When tst returned home, he offered to buy a new wedding set for me. I told him no. I wanted the set he chose for me 20 years ago. It's our history. I'm trying to reclaim our 24 year history toegher, and keeping my rings was part of that.
We each have our own way of claiming our lives and marriages again. There is no right or wrong way. Be patient. The time will come to make those decisions.
I still want to burn the dress, but I proudly wear my rings and necklace. I can't explain why I still want to destroy one but not the other. Maybe I just love diamonds. (heehee)
My point being, if you recover, you may feel differently about many things.
Be still and wait on the Lord.
T2L, my FWH, tst, told me this morning that he had an out-of-the-blue thought about your situation and felt pressed to pass it on to you (maybe God, maybe just FWS's wisdom at this point). I told him I would post it to you today.
He said your WS is using your DD as an IM by texting her info about visits with son. He needs that door closed in his face. He must be REQUIRED to use the IMs.
Then I was thinking that everytime he texts her during your family time, he is busting through your plan B. He is able to invade your home without ever entering it. You see her face, you hear her words, and you are still experiencing the drama.
It's a tough line as a mama. As tst said this morning to me...You need to know what fog babble he is feeding them so that you can counter it with Scripture and truth. They need your guidance and teaching, especially now in this deep spiritual battle for all your souls. BUT on the other side of that line is that you need protected from that babble. So, if DD can learn to shut off the babble by refusing to engage him in it, it will benefit all of you.
I remember thinking that in the state of mind FWS was in during the affair, the less interaction the children had with him, the better, because he was twisting truth and Scripture and allowing satan to speak to their hearts.
It IS so much bigger than just an affair. I know you get that.
QUESTION for every betrayed wife:
Did your husband get rid of his wedding ring when he was wayward, or did he just take it off and put it aside?
Funny thing would you like to know, he lost our 1st set of wedding rings in a karate sparring class probably about12 years ago, he was really upset went back tried to find them called for a week to see if they showed up, but they were lost.
Then about 5 years ago I got him a new one, if I am correct he lost that one too, I wasn't bothered that much as I thought that our covenant is more than a ring.
Ok I will put them away, just looking at them sitting here on my desk is making me sick! I can't stand them now! Its true I may feel differently later but because of what he has done they are meaningless, absolutely meaningless.
He removed it for a few days - then slipped it back on and said "I am married to you." (pissed me off at the time, but actually impresses me today)
Today is our D day anniversary by-the-way. I feel GREAT!
Awe....
Congrats on not feeling anything bad on D-day anniversary! That is worth.....
T2L, my FWH, tst, told me this morning that he had an out-of-the-blue thought about your situation and felt pressed to pass it on to you (maybe God, maybe just FWS's wisdom at this point). I told him I would post it to you today.
He said your WS is using your DD as an IM by texting her info about visits with son. He needs that door closed in his face. He must be REQUIRED to use the IMs.
Ok so just so you guys know, I am loving having figured out to quote each little section....YES! Sorry I just figured out recently!
Darn right it can be God, and He always uses those really relaxed moments out of the blue because were not trying so hard to hear His voice and it's usually Him.
I would say yes he's probably right as far as using DD17 as an IM. BUTTTTTT, let me ask you this, sorry I am only only page 34 of your thread, but did TST use the IM's? My H is a stubborn butthe@d and refuses vehemently to use them. My IM's, Pep, Neak, and Delean, have said you may not hear much from him but thats okay so I keep sending what ever information I need to and they continue passing it on.
So how on earth am I going to get him to use them? He knows the days and times he is allowed to visit and that's when he comes. So did TST use the IM's? Mine will not.
Then I was thinking that every time he texts her during your family time, he is busting through your plan B. He is able to invade your home without ever entering it. You see her face, you hear her words, and you are still experiencing the drama.
Yes this is true, it does feel that way. I have to admit at times I do want to know, but then at times I don't.
It's a tough line as a mama. As tst said this morning to me...You need to know what fog babble he is feeding them so that you can counter it with Scripture and truth. They need your guidance and teaching, especially now in this deep spiritual battle for all your souls.
Yes knowing what he is allowing the enemy to spout out of his mouth is helpful and I have combated it with truth and scripture during my prayer time, so yes I agree here too. And also telling DD17 well this is the truth or whatever the situation calls for.
BUT on the other side of that line is that you need protected from that babble. So, if DD can learn to shut off the babble by refusing to engage him in it, it will benefit all of you.
I will talk with her again, I think what happened the other day was her fault, she got peaved at her dad saying he wanted to be with us to open gifts and so she went off on him and he kept justifying and blaming me. I was crying in the bath tub so that's what she told me and her boyfriend confirmed it too. But she did not have patience I guess and didn't want to hear it.
I remember thinking that in the state of mind FWS was in during the affair, the less interaction the children had with him, the better, because he was twisting truth and Scripture and allowing satan to speak to their hearts.
I am not sure how I could do that, I would love less interaction. Thank God Ws does not say really anything to DS10 that I know of, I think he knows of everything it has caused DS10 so mostly DD17 and him argue.
I keep the kids at church every week and are surround by really only church folks as I moved to this new city 2 years ago for H and I to be closer to church. Pastor has given total access to my children to him at anytime and the kids feel really comfortable doing so.
It IS so much bigger than just an affair. I know you get that.
{{{{{SIGH}}}}}
Yes I know, I just can't see recovery, its so very hard to see it the longer it goes on. Tomorrow is 6 weeks in Plan B. I did not cry yesterday, but I have to say i was pretty mad. I sat there at thought ya know I have stood by your side and raised your kids full time, I was there through food banks, repossession, eviction, bankruptcy EVERYTHING! And for my faithfulness I get nothing and OW gets Christmas presents from him, I can't tell you how that hurt! And then today he gets to swoop in and act "like" a father and it makes me really annoyed.
I really wish I could inflict pain and ruin their relationship and make him feel what I am feeling.
I know the bible says we don't wrestle with flesh and blood but with principalities and powers, but UGHHHHHHHH, I can only do one day at a time, I barely can see more that one day at a time.
Really, anytime you and TST think of anything send it down, stories sound really similar, actually PM and AJ and Neak and Pep and Mr. Pep and Lildoggie and Flick. Really anytime, i feel like I am now in the heat of the battle big time. Anyone who wants to contact me offline feel free, I can get you my email addy.
Okay plan for today, go spend gift cards at the mall in another city since he is taking kids to our mall.
Good morning beautiful Lady!!!!
Its a fabulous, sun shinning day in the 'Naki and our plan is once DD12 has tidied the cave she calls her room, to take the boat out and have a family picinic! Yay!
Anyway, just dived on to get my MB fix for the day
and saw your question re: wedding rings. Flick took his off about 2 years ago as it had bent out of shape and was interferring with his work. As i don't wear mine regulary (allergy to gold) I wasnt overly worried. About 2 weeks before D-day he took his into teh jewllers to be upsized and repaired. As I had put on some weight
I put mine in too.
He has never been able to answer why he was doing that while in his A.
Anyway, I gave it to him in Plan A and he had it sitting on his dresser at Freds.
He put it back on when he came home in the FR but it was on, off on, off because he 'wasnt used to it".
This time he put it on before he came home and hasnt taken it off yet.
I wore my rings from the time I decided to go into plan A, and guess what... My pressie from him this year was an eternity ring!
Wasnt given to me as romantically as PM's H did, but I like the ring anyway
Have a great day!!!
The kids just left to have their Christmas visit with their dad. Well to say the least it was trigger for me.
I have been crying for a half an hour now and crying now! I was planning to hit the mall and I can't stop crying. I am going to try to pull it together and go out and shop. I'm trying. The rat wanted to park his car in my front yard and DD17 said no we'll meet you at the shopping center, thank God. I mean what Flaunt your stinkin car in front of my house all day so I can see it!!!!
I feel like I live in a bloody black hole and I know God but yet I have no answers. I love Him and would never walk away from Him or blame him but I hurt and I wonder things ya know. And guess what even if one day I decided I can't go on anymore I still don't want to divorce him as I do not DS10 to go to their apt. or near her. So its best to stay in this holding pattern for years if I had to so that DS10 could get older. I will protect him at all costs from having to go to that ungodly woman's house and be in her presence.
Truly the weight of this is really overwhelming! I mean tomorrow is 6 weeks dark plan B for the most part. I know and understand the victory that God gave me through Christ, I know these things, but I swear the pain I have overrides what I know is the truth. I feel like I walk in sorrow and not victory. I told the Lord to day I am sick of those at church who try and tell me all the great tips....you are such an attractive person you can go on if you had to,...well no duh.....then they try and help you and they have ABSOLUTELY no clue the pain I have they cannot even comprehend and they want to help.
Then get this, I have another lady at church, for the most part she is nice and does love God, who likes to give me tips who I know is an OW. She destroyed a marriage years back and now they are married and have 2 children and are happy as all get out BUT she doesn't know I know that she is and OW and it bugs the crap out of me when she tries to say you have a call in God aside of Mr. T2L...Hello shut up! You can say that to me because you walked away with some one else's man.
I am sick of crying, I am sick of all of this!!!! I am beyond understanding why my H hates me on top of this all! I truly don't know how you all made it!
I am utterly disheartened really, I am holding on....Great swollen eyes again.....Sorry I need to barf on you all, I hate being a whiner really I do.
Have you talked with your daughter about Plan B for her?
A good strategy for her would be that any time he starts talking about you, she quietly hang up the phone.
He might call her back angry and she can calmly say - Dad - if you want to talk about Mom and the situation there, you have three people she's set up for you to do that. I'M YOUR CHILD - not your therapist. So I'm NOT going to listen to it any more. Any time you bring it up, I'm hanging up. Got it?
If he jumps her case about being disrespectful, quietly hang up.
If he doesn't get the message that way that he HAS to respect HER boundaries too, then she can write him a sweet Plan B letter, then any communication he wants to get to her, HAS TO GO THROUGH THE IM's - snort! True justice for the proud man!
I am so sorry you are feeling down, but don't give up right before the miracle.
I was thinking that maybe it would help your daughter to post a thread here. That is, if she wants to. I know we have heard from several other women's daughters here and it seemed to help them, as an anonymous place to express their feelings.
My youngest just got dumped by his fiance, and he reads here and it comforts him. So far he doesn't feel like posting.
Your husband is using your daughter as a substitute punching bag, since he can't get to you. He doesn't care that, in trying this, he is hurting her far worse. I LIKE Kayla Andy's idea of Plan B for her, too, and referring him to the IMs if he doesn't behave. His buns are already frosted just over the IMs. If
she did that, he'd be able to open his own pastry shop!
tl
KaylaAndy, you are BRILLIANT!
T2L, I think you should seriously consider having your daughter do this. It will bring a bit of sanity and peace back for her and for you.
I'm sorry you are having a rough day. You will get through these dark days to the other side.
{{{{{{{{T2L}}}}}}}}
You will get through these dark days to the other side.
And that's a promise!!!
(((T2L)))
{{{{{T2L}}}}}
Hiiii mama!!!
LOoooove you!!!
{{{{{T2L}}}}}
Hiiii mama!!!
LOoooove you!!!
Hi my foofey!
T2L, I fear you are yethterday'th duckieth!
Made it through yesterday, was able to finally stop crying and get out of the house. I went to the mall and try to find some things to use for my gift card but didn't get all that much as I wasn't in the shopping mood, but I did force myself out instead of crying all day.
When I returned from the mall DDD17 and DS10 said they had a good visit w/their dad and that H has just called to say he was leaving our city and wanted to say goodbye. DD17 says what do you mean,we left you over 2 hours ago, he said yeah I know, it was a nice day I went to Lemon Park(about a mile from our house) and walked around for a couple of hours. DD17 says oh, okay well see you later dad.
Weird, he stayed at a park and walked around for 2 hours by himself. Why doesn't he go home, I'm sure there are many parks there too.
Anyways, let me all ask you this, so H's mother and 1 brother have come to the support of my H and 2 of the other brothers and families have come to support me. Well I basically Plan B'd the mother and 1 brother. MIL told my H at dday that if he chose Sea Hag he would support him-of course you cheated your whole life- so I told her in PBL that I don't want to talk to her as she could not protect my marriage or my children and do NOT contact me unless you apologize-she is a very stubborn woman so I doubt it will happen. The BIL that isn't supporting told me ON DDAY when i called him crying that what should I have done differently and wasn't very loving, so I sent him a PBL email too. I said you know what when someone reaches out to you for support you certainly don't say that to them so unless you apologize I refuse to talk with you. The family is basically divided and broken bad over this. Split right down the middle.
Anyways the BIL that I have asked for NO contact to has crossed my boundaries twice. The 1st time he added my name to some spam prayer list-i Feel this is manipulation. I quickly emailed and said do not add my name to any list, you are illegally spamming me. Then yesterday I get a call from on e of the BIL's that are supporting me and they say that the other BIL is making a family newsletter and to give me one. WEll the other BIL says NO i am not because they know I have asked for no contract.
The scary part is H is talking to both of them, his mom and 1 brother, I hate this as they are dark counsel and only hurting matters worse.
anyways I was so angry that they are pushing this issue again that I woke up in the middle of the night last night and wrote them a letter. It wasn't exactly all that great, no cussing or meanness just very stern. I told repeated in my email to them that i had asked them for no contact and they need to respect my boundaries. I also said why on earth would you put someone in the middle like that and what stinking planet are you guys living on, the family is broken up! I also gave them a front page story for the newsletter, told them hey why don't you print how MIL broke my computer 7 years ago while watching my kids when H and I were 3000 miles away in Dallas by watching pornography and that my H couldn't stand his mother for doing that while watching the kids and how H said he would never take any advice from her as her life is a complete failure.
I then told them, I don't care what you were told, I may have made some minor changes but I was a darn good wife. I worked overtime trying to make your brother happy but nothing worked because he hasn't been happy since he was a child and I am the one that is being blamed for it. I said God will show the truth and will vindicate me.
Anyways do you think I shouldn't have told BIL that much about H? I know they talk to H a lot. I wonder if he will read the email to him? I mean I said nothing mean in it, even said I still loved him and was holding on best I could to keep my love I just don't want to share anymore. IDK I guess I am worried that they will tell him and he'll hate me even more. I am sorry it is the truth. I spun my wheels doing everything because in hind sight I thought if I did everything surely he'll be happy one day....Nope.
Blah Blah blah, K I'm done....BTW my DD17 is registered at Trying2LiveDD if you want to drop in to her thead...
T2L, I fear you are yethterday'th duckieth!
Holy cow is that good or is that bad??? LOL Translate I'm a lil slow.
Sorry had to hang up yesterday, a mother of the child that my son was playing with came to drop off the sleep over bag. Thanks so much for checking on me.
Sorry I sounded like such a whinny sap yesterday. Dear God no more crying for a few weeks...LOL
T2L - too much drama and trauma for a true Plan B Goddess.
May I recommend a stop by my cafe some time today or the Goddess thread and consider that the WH is not a part of your thoughts or actions today?
I would also add that today is an excellent day to start thinking forward. Thinking about YOU. Who YOU are going to be this coming year, and prepare for it. YOU are someone who is complete and loveable and worth a million all on her own - regardless of whether she is with a man or not.
Time for you to start thinking like that. That is what Plan B is for - to realize just how valuable YOU are - all by yourself.
Take a trip down memory lane, and try to remember what you used to love. As a kid, a teenager, a young adult. What are the things you wanted to do, but gave up because of situations or other people? Did you want to learn how to paint watercolors (that's mine)? Did you want to learn how to play piano? Become a gardener? Learn all about WWII? Whatever it is, sit back and decide how you can go about making some of those earlier wishes come true. Make a plan. Take a few days. And make yourself a commitment to start getting on some of those things starting January 1st.
Ok? Promise me!
T2L - too much drama and trauma for a true Plan B Goddess.
May I recommend a stop by my cafe some time today or the Goddess thread and consider that the WH is not a part of your thoughts or actions today?
I agree, well today the kids and I are going to the celebrate Christmas with the 2 BIL's that support me, so I will be in a very loved and supportive atmosphere{{{{{sigh}}}}}. I am looking forward to it, and the cousins are pretty excited to see each other.
I don't have to worry about anything. MIL is not invited so it'll be just dandy!
On top of all this madness and Christmas, Christmas parties I am really looking forward to the calm of the New Year. Going to get some things anchored down tighter in the Plan B with DD17. Kids and I have planned to go to Disneyland for New Years Even instead of staying home, I am really excited about that as i have never seen the park decorated for Christmas.
Now that DD17 is posting I think I can have her divert daddy more to the IM's. Could you guys maybe drop by DD17's thread and give her responses to give her dad. Here are some of the things he says she may need examples for. What are you guys doing on such and such day can I come see you?(He's been sent a schedule). Tell mom I put the money in the bank. How much money does your mom need.
I thought about this, I am going to ask DD17 to tell him if we are with family, and d=H texts her to respond: Hi daddy, I can't talk right now I will get back to you as soon as we leave. Then he can't ruin our time at my family or In Laws either. he knows we are going to his brothers I imagine he may try again.
I would also add that today is an excellent day to start thinking forward. Thinking about YOU. Who YOU are going to be this coming year, and prepare for it. YOU are someone who is complete and loveable and worth a million all on her own - regardless of whether she is with a man or not.
Time for you to start thinking like that. That is what Plan B is for - to realize just how valuable YOU are - all by yourself.
Take a trip down memory lane, and try to remember what you used to love. As a kid, a teenager, a young adult. What are the things you wanted to do, but gave up because of situations or other people? Did you want to learn how to paint watercolors (that's mine)? Did you want to learn how to play piano? Become a gardener? Learn all about WWII? Whatever it is, sit back and decide how you can go about making some of those earlier wishes come true. Make a plan. Take a few days. And make yourself a commitment to start getting on some of those things starting January 1st.
Ok? Promise me!
I agree and I have been thinking about that the last day or so. There is so much going on just with whats going on and not even including the Christmas madness.
funny you say that, I actually wanted to sit down and write out that very thing. I wanted to start my keyboard lessons and set up the keyboard in my room I just haven't devoted the time to it but I realllllly want to learn. I still want to paint my room so I think I will start choosing colors for that. DD17 and I went to walmart yesterday and found 2 huge collage pictures so we are going to start filling those and adding those to the home. Question, I don't have any pictures of H around, took them all down. The kids have some in their rooms. It was too hard for me to look at all the pictures of us during the summer. So do I have to put pictures of H in my collage?
Anyways I want to start writing more music and hopefully I will be able to record in May as my producer is going to relocate to California. I was flying out to Dallas to record previously.
You have my word I will start thinking about those things. I got a bit sidetracked with not having H around at Christmas and the sorrow of it all that I couldn't really think but the New Year is coming and everything should calm down alot!
If these family members continue to contact you, well, what do you think you have IM's for???
Forward us any email, or if it's verbal, send the info to us yourself, and include an email address.
We will just very nicely let them know that all contact will be handled via IM, if there is important information regarding the children.
That oughta put a stop to most of your troubles in that department.
If these family members continue to contact you, well, what do you think you have IM's for???
Forward us any email, or if it's verbal, send the info to us yourself, and include an email address.
We will just very nicely let them know that all contact will be handled via IM, if there is important information regarding the children.
That oughta put a stop to most of your troubles in that department.
Hey thats a great idea!!! Hadn't thought of that one.
Hey, it's me Jayne241, I'm logged on differently cus my computer broke and I'm on a new computer that doesn't know my old password. Again.
Yes, I agree, you are still having way too much drama and exposure to WH. I've been trying to figure out a nice way to say it, or hoping someone else would say it first. But I think you are still "enmeshed" or "involved" or something, with WH. He IS still getting a "fix" from knowing that DD17 tells you what he says - it's a way to reach out and "touch" you, to reach out and affect you. And you are still yearning for getting a fix from him - listening when DD talks to or msgs him, asking her what he said, etc. I know it's so tempting, and all PBers stumble at the start, but it's time you stood up and ran true.
You need to be strong. Yes divert any msgs from unsupportive in-laws to the IMs. But also, IMHO don't encourage your DD to tell you anything about what WH says. I know that's tough, you want your DD to be able to tell you anything... but just for a little while, can this topic be off-limits? If there's something she thinks you should know, can she call the IMs and find out?
You should be out and about, having fun, doing things you always wanted to do but didn't have the time or courage, becoming the person you always wanted to be but were too busy trying to hold down the homefront before.
You were dancing, right? Salsa? How's that coming?
*hugs*
Hello T2L. It sounds like you are in a better place today. Consider days like yesterday "cleansing" days.
You asked me earlier if tst used the IMs. I did not go into Plan B. I was overdue for it and was getting ducks in a row when tst defogged.
But I am absolutely SURE he would have refused to use IMs until he had no other option. I had Plan B'd him as much as possible without officially doing so because I couldn't Plan A any longer. That alone just about drove him insane....except he was already insane. :crosseyedcrazy:
Also during our false recovery, he read part of SAA. He stopped after Plan B and informed me that he did not agree with Dr. Harley "using the children as pawns" and that it was immature to not talk together about your own children. UGH!:twobyfour:
You are going to need to make it impossible for him to pass information along to you. Instruct DD that you expect her to not discuss you with WH any longer. I will head over to her thread and talk with her a bit on this.
HOWEVER, I think as the only sane parent and spiritual leader, it is your reponsibility to help her sort through fog babble. So it is important to talk with her about what Mr. Wacked Out is saying.
But YOU are going to have to guard yourself from becoming consumed with it.
I'm not sure I can explain this very well. I'm going to think about it a bit more and I'll be back.
It sounds like, from DD's thread, that T2L actually asks DD what WH said.
This is very wrong and should've stopped after the first few times (human frailty).
Please remember this: going back and forth between PA and PB, or doing a half-@ssed PB, is worse than not doing a PB at all. You lose credibility. And respect. And your love for him.
You are NOT trying to control him by saying you will only communicate via the IMs. HE is CONTROLLING YOU by using your DD as the conduit. He is relishing the way he can still affect you.
YOU have every right to say what YOU WILL and WILL NOT do. That is not controlling HIM, that is self-control and protecting your own boundaries.
He can do whatever he flippin wants. Except his rights end where yours begin. And what you will NOT do, in a good PB, is you will neither give NOR RECEIVE any information from him except what comes through the IMs.
He isn't using the IMs because you are allowing another option.
If he had NO other option, then he wold either use the IMs or he would be in the dark. That's all. His choice. Not you controlling him, entirely his choice.
OK, I’m going to give this a try.
I think the perfect scenario would be that you never hear a word about what WS says or does and that DD and DS never hear their daddy justify his sinful behavior or twist Scripture to use for evil.
But this is obviously not a perfect situation, is it?
You are the spiritual leader for your family right now. WH’s affair is the fleshly reflection of the spiritual battle for his soul. I suspect you also know that when satan has his way with the leader of the family, he has an “in” to every member of that family.
When tst was wayward, he was a tool for satan to speak into our children’s hearts. He twisted Scripture to try to confuse them into accepting lies from the enemy. I knew that satan wanted not just my husband, but me and my children as well.
I felt it critical to be “in the know” about the lies they were being fed so that I could direct them to Scripture and help them understand truth.
Your DD is almost an adult, yes; but she is involved in the biggest spiritual battle ever for her soul.
So, what to do???
First of all, I think DD being on MB could be very helpful against this battle. There are many strong believers on your thread that can walk by her side.
Secondly, DD needs to refuse to engage daddy when he wants to babble. By doing this, she will close satan’s opportunity to speak to her heart. I think KaylaAndy’s suggestion is as good as it can get on how to handle that.
Next, DD also needs to refuse to pass any info on to you. She doesn’t want to be in the middle, but WH is forcing her to be. If she can formulate a plan for herself, she can remove herself from the middle by enforcing her boundaries.
And lastly, you must be discerning in asking about conversations between Dd and her father. You really don’t need to know everything he says. The more you look for opportunities to talk with BOTH your children about sin and how we become ensnared and eventually brought down to death and destruction, the less you will need to know every single word he says. Adultery in a family that has had years of love and respect, offers so many BIG Scriptural lessons that our children can really grasp because they are living it.
I hope I am making some sense here.
I know it is important for you to stay dark, completely dark as far as WS is concerned. But communication between mother and children, in my opinion, must be kept open during such a hard time in their lives.
Yes,I do at times ask what he has said but I do not communicate with him in anyway. He does ask DD17 and DS10 when he can visit and tell your mom I put money in the bank but its one sided, he passes by her I don't. I never tell him anything through DD17 I have told DD17 that i will not meet any needs by doing so, so believe me guys its completely one sided. I do not communicate with him.
DD17 has been told to say IDK dad check your email, IDK IDK IDK.
Yes when they argue she tells me things and I question her or things he says to her. And for example, on Christmas when I am at my families he says to DD17 to tell everyone hello, she looks at me with deer in the headlights puzzled look, I tell her you tell him that you cant do that its not a good idea. I feel there are specific times to know what he is saying to her.
H frequently tells DD17 tell mom this or that. Now like the other day he told DD17 he wanted to be there when they opened there presents and it set her off and she laid into him and then he went into blaming me, but that whole thing started by DD17. I did hear the last half of the argument as I was in the bathtub when it started.
I feel my Plan B, in the respect, that I have not seen or spoken to him, no phone calls, I am silent or out of the room when he calls, no text pages and no emails, has been dark. The only part of plan B has not been is that I hear what he says to DD17 and I have not concentrated on things I like.
I do hear information when him and DD17 argue. At times I clarify the things he says to her as they are half truths to make her doubt her mother. I have really encouraged her to point him to the IM's BUTTT I think because she is well aware of the financial issues-me a 20 year stay at home mom straight out of high school-she is worried that we will have to move.
Also remember that lovely guilt offering car he bought her in October, well she says once she finds full time work she wants a job she will probably go plan B on him. As bad as that sounds she is afraid that he will take her car from her and I have to keep in mind that she is 17. I did tell her that that is why I didn't want her to take the car but too late now.
But i promise you all I have been dark in Plan B, heard more than necessary, but NO breaches. I won't let us down.
T2L, you are doing GREAT!
We just want to help you protect yourself if there are any doors left open.
If we can help your daughter shut the door WH keeps barging through, it will be even better for you, and MUCH better for her.
"You are the spiritual leader for your family right now. WH’s affair is the fleshly reflection of the spiritual battle for his soul. I suspect you also know that when satan has his way with the leader of the family, he has an “in” to every member of that family."
Wow, I remember this from scripture, and it certainly was true in my case. I ended up having a ONS, something I never would have considered my whole life. My faith in God was also severely tested.
Awe thanks guys, I am trying with all my heart to stay dark as possible, for myself, the kids but for every other reading who may come here and for all my mentors.
I think its great DD17 is posting and I know that the home front will be even more unified and stronger to be able to stand.
I know the bible says when the enemy comes in like a flood that God will raise the standard, well my friends Plan A and B is the standard and weapon God can use I am sure of it. Its hard, and not for the weak of heart, you truly have to become a warrior for your family and children and for the Kingdom of God.
Thank you guys all so much for your love and support to me and the kiddies, I am eternally grateful!
Were off to celebrate Christmas with BIL's, H knows we are going, have told DD17 to not respond to any texts to H while we are they and if she feels she must to say dad i can't talk right now I will call you when we leave. Should be a calm day.
I don't want to discourage you, and yes you are doing great, but it's things like this that I wanted to point out:
Yes,I do at times ask what he has said but I do not communicate with him in anyway. ... so believe me guys its completely one sided. I do not communicate with him.
One-sided conversations are still not completely dark. I've held back in saying soemthing cus I didn't wanna sound harsh and I was trying to figure out why others weren't mentioning this. I get that you want to counteract any lies/garbage he tells her. I think she's strong enough and she gets it; I also think at least for now maybe it would be healthy for her to have someone else to confide in if she needs to.
Wouldn't it be better to have one topic off-limits with your daughter (which she doesn't really want to be put in the middle anyway) for just a little while, and to recover the marriage; than to talk to her about everything but have a broken home?
I really think you haven't gone very dark at all. You are constantly preoccupied with him: what is he texting the kids; where is he parking; where did he go after visiting the kids; how much time is he spending in your town vs. OW's town; etc. Your DD seems to have a healthier attitude, IMHO: out-of-sight, out-of-mind; so she is not consumed with this except when she is put in the midst of the drama through passing on text messages, even if it is just one way.
Another thought: if you cut off the route of him getting msgs to you through your DD, maybe he'll stop telling the things that you feel you need to monitor. Do you trust the IMs to monitor the msgs?
I don't know how common it is but I haven't heard of another case where the WH refuses, absolutely refuses, to talk to the IMs. Maybe it's because they are folks he doesn't know, or maybe it's because he still gets what he wants through texting your DD.
Maybe it's healthy to monitor what he sends her so you can counter it; but then again, maybe it's healthy to remove her from being put in the middle.
I really think you haven't gone very dark at all. You are constantly preoccupied with him: what is he texting the kids; where is he parking; where did he go after visiting the kids; how much time is he spending in your town vs. OW's town
I've been telling her this off list
T2L, told ya so hee hee
I do know how hard it is, how easy it is to obsess over them. I think (for me at the time, at least) it may be a way to try and keep some sort of connection, but the reality is this kind of knowlege drains the love bank in double quick time.
BTW hello there T2LDD
Ooooh lildoggie, us geniuses think alike!
I'm glad you were thinking the same thing, I've thought it for awhile but hesitated to say anything. I finally couldn't just sit idly by anymore.
T2L,
I don’t know if I have posted to you before or not. If not, I’m sorry. I tend to be selfish and get scared to exercise out of my comfort zone because I don’t want to give anyone bad advice. The reality is, the cool part of this place is others will jump in and correct any misinformation or advice that I may offer.
I haven’t read your thread and there is a lot to it. I don’t honestly know if I will be able to, but what I do know is that you are in Plan B and are struggling with your HEAD and HEART.
I KNOW this….TOO WELL…
I was and when I can go there am still TOO PREOCCUPIED with WH. It was explained to me that Plan B was to follow Plan A after Plan A was losing its effectiveness and Plan B was the only option I had to not lose the love I had left and to PROTECT MYSELF. It was told to me, that when I went into Plan B my heart and mind needed to be in sync. Honestly, I don’t think it was, but for my sitch there was NO OTHER way to go, but Plan B
Protect myself… what the heck did that mean. I didn’t understand it because I didn’t understand boundaries and I wasn’t able to even begin to look at what a very unhealthy situation my M really was. Whether it had always been that way, or had become that way I can’t answer and that’s my biggest struggle. And to this day I still struggle… It’s so much easier to see other people’s forest than my OWN…
I saw the board brought in Rin, my assessment is because some sort of abuse or way unhealthiness in your relationship is present. Rin is the best, because she has done the internal work to learn about her, how she operated in her M, etc. And I have HAD to learn this stuff too. I’m not saying you are abused, Im just putting out what’s possible….
If you are fighting the ramifications of that, I do every day. If you fight yourself from hearing news about WH, I do that too. I am SO MUCH better, but I still look for little tidbits etc.
Right now, regardless of anything, you are hurting, you are damaged and you have suffered a trauma at the hands of someone who simply isn’t treating you right. And as human beings I have come to learn in the words of Rin, THAT’S UNACCEPTABLE. But this is what you are used to, and you need it in some ways to feel normal. You need that chaos to feel connected to the WH..
I BEG you to find the strength to tighten the noose on you for needing to know. G-d is taking care of WH, he is HURTING more for WH than you ever could. Are you familiar with Psalm 23? The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures . He leads me besides still waters…. He renews my soul. He guides me in right paths as befits His name.
I don’t doubt how much you love your H, but this man, WH isn’t your H. He is dangerous to you. You have learned harmful ways of living that G-d has seen enough of and needs you to lie down so he can restore your soul and become his servant in health.
Each time we allow any tidbit of news into our heads it enters into our heart and we hurt and the process of healing starts all over again. STOP IT… I beg you to understand and hear how dangerous that is.
I certainly have far to move to stop all that, but I am a little further along than you and truly feel that pain when you hear the info.
Like the NC with the OW is needed, NC with WH is needed to heal, as well as prepare you for what G-d’s path for you is. Sorry for the ramble…. I hope I made some sense. My heart just understands your heart… so well…
Mine too, Queenie. NC and staying dark is so difficult at first. Afterall, these men were our lovers and confidants for so long. I had a heck of a time going completely dark. I longed for information about him.
But I did start feeling much better when I heard NOTHING.
I've been telling her this off list
T2L, told ya so hee hee
Me too.
I really think you haven't gone very dark at all. You are constantly preoccupied with him: what is he texting the kids; where is he parking; where did he go after visiting the kids; how much time is he spending in your town vs. OW's town; etc. Your DD seems to have a healthier attitude, IMHO: out-of-sight, out-of-mind; so she is not consumed with this except when she is put in the midst of the drama through passing on text messages, even if it is just one way.
Lil Jayne,
I am glad that you felt you were able to say what you felt I needed to hear. I respect that.
I can see what you are saying. Yes in my Plan B, I may not be dark in respect to myself and not allowing him into my head. I do think about all that stuff and even when I hear nothing.
For me it was not just not my husband and best friend but I have been with my H since I was 14, he was my 8th grade boyfriend. So it's a very hard adjustment and transition. I did okay at first but since the onset of Thanksgiving it has been hard and he has been worse. He has doubled his crap since the Thanksgiving, but I think it may be him getting Nostalgic and it will probably subside now that everything is over.
So yes I need to be dark on my side, the same way I have been dark on H's side. I am trying to get it stronger. DD17 and I have talked, she has read the posts and we feel that we can tighten it up more. She and I agreed that most of it I can skip hearing but we are going to leave a window open for things she feels need to be said. But overall I am going to take the advise and go darker on my side. I have concentrated all my efforts on staying dark to prevent H from getting any need but I have neglected going dark for my protection. Some of it happens even when DD17 doesn't talk to me. Really some of it is just my brain and being pissed off royally and not being able to comprehend this crap. Sometimes I just spin and spin and spin and it's not even when I hear information. I'm not really sure what to do with that either. Its like I don't even need to hear information to be frustrated and feel like I am being barraged under a huge spiritual cloud and I feel like I am swirling out of control mentally. Don't get me wrong I am not crazy I just think and think and think even when I try to distract myself. IDK guess time it'll lessen?
Okay like today, H texted DD17 at the family get together at his brothers. I said either don't respond or if you feel you need to say dad I will get back to you in a bit. So she did, then towards afternoon he texts her pictures of him at the pier and then in the evening he says so what are you to busy for pops. I said DD17 that is manipulation, please do not respond until we leave so she didn't. I think If I was there she may have chatted he is still dad and as strong as she seems sometimes she feels bad for him. We made it without him being able to come through DD17 and when she got home she texted him I'm home and he called.
But here's another example, normally he NEVER says anything to DS10 thankfully because I think he knows the anxiety hes caused, so usually I leave the room when they talk.
BUTTTTTTT, Tonight I wish I had not. Tonight he said to DS10 that you know I still love you even if they probably told you I don't love you I still want to take care of you and I would have gone if they invited me. Ok now you see, I WANT DS10 to tell me these things. For 1 so I can journal it and 2 so i can correct it. So I had to say DS10 your uncles and aunts know that daddy still loves you and has anyone ever said daddy doesn't love you? DS10 says no. I say have I ever said dad doesn't love you? DS10 says no. I say daddy loves you. We just chose to not invite your dad until he leaves Sea Hag. DS10 says I think dad just wants me to not like them, and I said probably. Okay in these instances I need to know and now I will be in the room monitoring from now on since he did that, or at least until I am sure he will not do that again. I think he is getting squeezed really bad by all this holiday stuff and now its even bleeding into him saying stuff to DS10.
Another thought: if you cut off the route of him getting msgs to you through your DD, maybe he'll stop telling the things that you feel you need to monitor. Do you trust the IMs to monitor the msgs?
I think with some answers you have provided for DD17, if she uses them, he may very well get bored with it or see that she is not going to go there. I am going to confirm with her the possible answers and highly encourage her to use them. I think its going to be hard for her, but if i can get her to say it just once then every time after that will be easier.
I don't know how common it is but I haven't heard of another case where the WH refuses, absolutely refuses, to talk to the IMs. Maybe it's because they are folks he doesn't know, or maybe it's because he still gets what he wants through texting your DD.
Maybe it's healthy to monitor what he sends her so you can counter it; but then again, maybe it's healthy to remove her from being put in the middle.
Yes like I mentioned he vehemently refuses to use them! I don't think that he will change that stance even if DD17 cuts out access, but I guess anything is possible. The reason H doesn't use the IM's isn't because he doesn't know them as my 1st IM's he did know very well, in fact are church friends that he likes and he chewed them out and they quit and that's how I got Pep, Neak and Delean.
{{{{{Sigh}}}}} Boy, I think I'll go take a bath....Thanks guys and appreciate all the input. I know you say it cuz ya love me....
From your DD's thread:
I'll copy this over to your mom, too, but if he keeps on like this with your brother, your mom will need to limit his phone contact with his dad to times when someone else can be there to monitor the calls, on speakerphone. That way you and your mom can both stay out of the loop.
I mean this 100%. This is totally unacceptable, and cannot keep on. Sorry that you have one more little drama to deal with just when you're trying to get your post-holiday equilibrium back, but you're a tuffy and can do it.
Do you have a friend who could come over several times a week and monitor phone calls? It would need to be someone who was strong enough to step in and give a warning at the first offense, and end the call if this happens again after that.
Unfortunately this is something you did need to know, and be sure to document it. However, if this becomes the new norm, you will very quickly hate WH. It's crucial to nip it off immediately.
Once you no longer have to keep hearing this garbage, I really think you'll enjoy PB a lot more, even though you are having to adjust to the loss of your lifelong friend.
Go salsa through the house, shouting (or at least thinking real loud), "I'M WONDERFUL!!!!!"
I think he upped the ante by going through DS10, because it felt like the line to you through DD17 was closing.
I think that means it was working, to close that line.
I think the line through DS10 needs to be closed. I'm not sure how, since you want to be able to counter anything WH tells DS.
JMHO.
You did such an awesome Plan A. He's missing you, that's clear. And he's getting desperate for any connection with you. Even discussing things like "I'll park here so your mom won't have to see me" is a connection; it's his actions affecting you, and he knows it.
I'd just like to see your Plan B be as stellar as your Plan A was. You're right, I just tell you these things cus I care and I want you to succeed. This is JMHO of the best thing to do. You have to decide for yourself.
u 2
My sis and I have both gained quite a bit of experience protecting our kids from wacko family members, much of it the hard way and by making mistakes.
Different types of wackos yes, but the same methods work.
Oops, I'm pretty sure 'wackos' is a DJ.
T2L, you were asking about second best.
As far as feeling second best? You may struggle with that for a while. I know I did. But eventually I realized that I am such a wonderful and superior specimen of wifehood, he would have been the most complete and drooling idiot if he didn't eventually see that for himself.
A WS might be selfishly motivated right at first, but once they begin de-fogging, they will recognize with horror what they stand to lose.
I think he upped the ante by going through DS10, because it felt like the line to you through DD17 was closing.
I think that means it was working, to close that line.
I think the line through DS10 needs to be closed. I'm not sure how, since you want to be able to counter anything WH tells DS.
JMHO.
You did such an awesome Plan A. He's missing you, that's clear. And he's getting desperate for any connection with you. Even discussing things like "I'll park here so your mom won't have to see me" is a connection; it's his actions affecting you, and he knows it.
I'd just like to see your Plan B be as stellar as your Plan A was. You're right, I just tell you these things cus I care and I want you to succeed. This is JMHO of the best thing to do. You have to decide for yourself.
Awe Jayneypooh, I love you! Really I know you are for me and the kids and I trust ya! I think really that God wants this for me as well because when I say I am swirling I can't convey to you how bad it has been and hearing then makes it worse. So I'm gonna go with this as God is not a God of confusion but of peace, love and a sound mind and let me tell you I have not a sound mind since Thanksgiving just because its so hard and then he barfs and makes it worse. So thank you to all who have been obedient to share what God put on your hearts. I always tell DD17 when God gives you something to tell someone you are not responsible for anything but to give the instruction, they are responsible for being obedient. I can't keep crying out to God to deliver me and he sends me the game plan through y'all and I ignore it.
Like this....There's a guy who's standing on top of his house because there is a flood and he is crying out to God, Lord save me! A man comes by and tries to throw him a life vest, and he replies NO I am waiting for God to rescue me. He again cries out and say Lord rescue me from this flood! And a bit later a man comes by in his boat and says hop in, and he replies NO I am waiting for God to save me! So he cries out a 3rd time and says Lord save me from this flood and again a bit later a helicopter comes by and tries to throw him a rope and he say NO I am waiting for God to rescue me. So the waters rise and the man drowns and goes to Heaven and is greeted by the Lord. He says Lord I cried out to you 3 times and you did not rescue me why? The Lords says, I sent you a life vest, a boat and a raft what more did you want?
LOL, I love that little joke, but I will implement a tighter PB as I really feel this is the will of God for me as I am losing my peace and focus.
I know these things are right and I'm gonna get on them, I feel like my life is swirling and it truly needs to stop. The loss and readjustment is one thing but the comments make it harder. I think were going to be able to tighten it up.
DD17 re-read the response IDK dad talk to the IM's I'm not in the middle of your plans anymore so I think we're gonna go for it and I think it will have success. I just feel like I gotta get past 1 more day, New Years Eve, always another favorite with our family and then I feel like I am going to buckle down and focus with all my might on that list....painting my room, starting my keyboard lessons and going back to the gym etc etc etc.
I don't really have anyone who can come over during phone calls, I will have to do some looking, everyone here is so busy with family lives and we have only lived here 2 years so we are still getting to know people. I am hoping bonehead just couldn't stand it and burst and hopefully it will not happen again. I think he was so mad I was with his brothers so he dragged Gabe into it. He has not done that during the whole thing and hopefully now it will be done.
I am taking kids to Disneyland hopefully on New Years Eve, its my day with kids, does DD17 have to respond at all to any of his texts even happy new years wishes? I really don't want to hear or see it, I mean thats my day. I want to be able to ask her since its my day no answering dad this day unless its an emergency, is that fair?
Thanks y'alll, pooped it midnight and gotta get up at 5:30AM to have some prayer time before I lead worship tomorrow, last worship sevice of 2008. GOOOOOOD BYE 2008! :happynewyear:
does DD17 have to respond at all to any of his texts even happy new years wishes
Nope, especially if she leaves her cell phone at home when it's "your" time.
Remember, my dear, you are still very early in Plan B. I think you are doing very well. Hubby is still extremely connected to the family, and that is good. It makes it a bit harder though, and many others have had similar problems, especially when they have teen girls.
And while you are struggling away, hubby is getting a great taste of reality with the SH. Wonderful!
Oops, I'm pretty sure 'wackos' is a DJ.
Is it REALLY a DJ when it's the
TRUTH? :RollieEyes:
As far as the phone goes--and I know how radical this will sound--
turn it off! Although leaving it home (as previously suggested) would be even more of a preventive, should withdrawal prove overwhelming. If a phone MUST be had (and I recognize that it DOES provide a certain safety net in the unlikely event of a true emergency), borrow a friend's for the day. That way you'll have a phone, but he won't have a number to call. Best of both worlds...
tl
Just got back from church, Pastor asked to meet with me afterward. He said that he wants me to step down as Head Worship Leader. He said he does not want me to quit, and he wants me singing every time and that he says that he doesn't want me responsible for everything right now. He said he had been keeping an eye on me for the last month and that I have been up and down a bit and he feels that it would be good for me for a season.
I am to say the least heart broken as it is a joy to lead. I feel like a complete failure, but know that my Pastor would never do anything to harm me or the children and has asked me to call him for anything. I trust him and said Ok. I think that when God places people in your life to Shepard you and that you submit to the leader. I know the Pastor loves me and the kids and is still praying for H he says until he feels that God has removed grace to.
I thought i was hurting already but I am sad once again. I feel completely empty. A close friend came with me to church today and so she is one of the first people to know. She said are you in shock? I said yes a little why she said I can tell, you have no feelings. The general congregation will be told that I am taking some time to focus on my family. I have told DS10 that I am stepping back from leading but told DD17 the truth and that if somehow it makes its way back to her dad that all he needs to know is that mom needed to step back right now because of things. This is the 1st time in 10 years that I have not lead worship.
Why is it sometimes that some people in life always seem like loss is a part of it. I now question so much in my life. I question myself. I am tired of pain and loss. This has been a lifetime of it. My childhood was horrendous, every boyfriend I had in high school cheated on me, my H cheated on me, there's tons more really. Maybe one day I should give you the whole story. Loss and pain, loss and pain, loss and pain. Can someone please tell me why? Am I some sick person who needs humbling? So exhausted with pain. I just wanna crawl in a hole. I have a tendency to just hide and disappear when things get hard, I wanna give up. I have my kids, the only light I can see and what keeps me going. At this point I don't even want to believe in myself. I am sure God has a reason for this but I am tired of being discarded, and I am sure I should not view it that way.
I am off to the bath tub to cry as I am here alone with DS10 and don't want him to be alarmed. I am sorry I sound like such a whiner so much you guys.
EDIT: Sorry that Lil DD17 of mine uses my computer and forgets to log off. So this is T2L.
T2L, having been raised in church all my life, the daughter of a pastor, and now a minister's wife, I can tell you that what he did was not a reflection on you personally. Sometimes in our lives our circumstances around us cause us to need to be carried for awhile. I personally believe he is looking out for you.
I know what goes into being a worship leader, the prayer, the practices, the planning, the leadership of the team. I believe that even though you love this position, this is a time for you to get even closer to God. When you come back as worship leader, and you will, you will come back from a position of strength like you've never known. You will have a testimony that will shine through in your music. You will have a deeper level of worship and an ability to reach hurting people.
There is a reason you have experienced so much pain in your life. You may not see it yet, but you will. I believe that your music will become even more annointed and more precious than ever. Don't give up! That's what the enemy wants.
You are a treasure and there's a heavenly battle being fought over your life right now. I already know the ending. You do too.
Prayers going up for you from Texas.
So sorry to hear this. I hope your pastor knows what he is doing. I keep going back to Satan getting a foothold in the family.
Prayers going up for you right now.
I have been with my H since I was 14, he was my 8th grade boyfriend. So it's a very hard adjustment and transition.
Hon, this is ALL the more reason why you need some space right now. You are not WH's wife. You are T2L. Alone. Separate. With your own thoughts and opinions and beliefs and value. Think about how valuable this time is for you - to get to be just about YOU. You NEED this! It will make you stronger for you, for your kids, and for your H. Take this time, relish it - it will be over all too soon - and learn from it. Listen to the silence and learn all about yourself. You need it.
And this:
Yes like I mentioned he vehemently refuses to use them! I don't think that he will change that stance even if DD17 cuts out access, but
is utter BS. He is fighting you. He is trying to be more stubborn than you. He knows you cave all the time and he always wins, so he just ASSUMES you're going to cave as usual and let him have his way. THAT is why he is not using the IMs. He is just waiting for you to cave.
Prove him wrong!
I agree with PM. And also must tell you that within all this feeling of LOSS comes a real awakening of you to what will be YOUR DAILY BREAD.
Look at a typical day of yours. You have up things and down things go on every day. We all do. My life looks like a graph of todays severely fluctuating stock market with its severe ups and downs!
What I have been doing is:
Asking God to give me every day, my daily bread.
Asking God to SHOW me every day, this DAILY BREAD he gives me.
Often God gives us daily bread but we do not see it all. HE gives us immense amounts of daily bread but we do not view it we look at the bad things in life and see our life as all bad! Is there something wrong with our eyes!? Maybe!
I will list my bad things for today and also my Daily Bread for today and show you what I mean.
Bad things today:
My eyes are watering/itching today again and this two month problem is still there even though I went to eye dr twice.
1. I feel tired.
2. I looked at my stocks and they are down again.
3. It is dark and cold out.
4. I want to just sleep and avoid things.
5. My husband is laid off
GOOD DAILY BREAD TODAY:
1. I got the office cleaned out
2. My clerk called and she can come help me tomorrow get ready for tax time.
3. Husband made a large cherry pie for us.
4. My French toast came out better than a restaurant.
5. The breakfast sausages were good.
6. The cats are happy and healthy
7. I dont ache today.
8. Our snow is almost melted
9. I have my lists ready for working tomorrow
10. My husband is laid off, he can help me!
11. My H is getting unemployment!
12. God loves me and I know this.
13. My car runs though it has been a week under ice and snow.
14. I found some great snow boots on Amazon.com
15. We have plenty of good foods to eat.
16. Leftover turkey will make good sandwiches today.
17. I and my H are happy and healthy.
18. We have heat and shelter.
19, we have more food than we can eat in 4 months!
20. Gas prices went down.
Anyhow you see how the daily bread is given all day, every day, each hour of the day. But it is hard to see since the seemingly negative things often dominate our minds and seem to overshadow the good daily bread.
Also, some of the negative things, I feel, about half of them, turn out to be NOT NEGATIVE in the long run. So we can ask God to help us change our viewpoint on the seemingly negative things in our lives.
I am praying and hoping that God reveals your DAILY BREAD to you every day. You can ask this also and HE will show it to you. You will not believe the blessings that drop down on you and I day by day that we ignore like it is nothing.
{{{{{{{T2L}}}}}}}
I'm so sorry you are hurting.
During tst's affair, a dear friend told me:
"I don't know why this is happening to you. I don't understand it. But I do know that God is the same today as He was yesterday and He cares about you."
((T2L))
I know it feels like you are being discarded with the worship team thing, but sometimes God knows when we need to be restored. Think about Elijah who did such a huge thing on Mount Carmel, then ran to the mountains. He had to just sit and an angel came to make him food.
Sometimes a Pastor has to protect the people in his care, even if it doesn't feel like it. Considering the huge spiritual attack your family is already under, maybe your Pastor realizes that you don't need added attack as a ministry leader right now (because that puts you between the enemy's cross-hairs as well). Consider it God's way of putting a hedge around you.
We can't possibly know what God's reasons are, because we aren't Him. David felt like this and wrote about it many times. And God put the Psalms in the Bible for us to know that it's okay to feel wounded and hurt; to feel like God is delaying and not hearing our prayers.
"I remember my affliction and my wandering...I remember them and my soul is downcast within me. Yet this I call to mind and therefore I have hope. Because of the Lord's great love we are not consumed, for His compassions never fail. They are new every morning. Great is your faithfulness. I say to myself 'The Lord is my portion. Therefore I will wait for Him.'" Lam. 3: 19-24
My childhood was horrendous, every boyfriend I had in high school cheated on me, my H cheated on me, there's tons more really. Maybe one day I should give you the whole story. Loss and pain, loss and pain, loss and pain. Can someone please tell me why? Am I some sick person who needs humbling?
No! IMHO this says you probably have too LOW a self esteem! And so that is where you are attacked... because that is where you are weak.
So exhausted with pain. I just wanna crawl in a hole.
All the more reason to take a break from any unnecessary responsibities. I bet your pastor was looking out for you and your family. Hon, I can't even *imagine* standing up in front of people in any kind of a leadership position, especially one where I am expected to be joyful, during such a difficult time!
You are exhausted. You need a rest. You deserve a rest. Like someone else said, it's time for you to be carried instead of you carrying others.
Let others minister to you. To refuse is to deny them that blessing.
I am sure God has a reason for this but I am tired of being discarded, and I am sure I should not view it that way.
I don't think your pastor was discarding you. I think he is trying to minister to you and to lighten your load, so you can focus on what is most important right now.
I love Beth Moore and did her "Daniel" Bible Study last year. In it she says there are three types of deliverance God can provide when we face a fiery furnace (a trial or tribulation or testing or refining of our faith):
1. He can deliver us FROM the fiery furnace: He can take away the problem.
2. He can deliver us THROUGH the fiery furnace: He doesn't remove the problem, but He gives us strength and we grow as we survive.
3. He can deliver us HOME. In other words, some fiery furnaces we simply don't survive. But then again, being delivered home is a good ending too.
It looks like #2 is what's in God's plan, for the refining of your faith. And who knows who you will be able to minister to as a result of having gone through this.
I know that doesn't take away your pain. It's just something to remember, when you can, to possibly lessen the pain. Please don't feel discouraged or like I'm preaching to you saying you should be cheerful or whatever. There are prolly more eloquent ppl who could express this better. Just take it and think on it when/if it helps.
Also, the thing about "feathers." Somewhere, I think in a Beth Moore study and also in a Women's Devotional Bible, there was a thing about feathers, based on Psalm 91:4. There was a story about a mother hen who gathered all her chicks under her wings just as a hawk struck. Her feathers went everywhere but the hawk didn't get any chicks, and flew away. Then all the chicks came out, and the mother was ok too because she was so full of fluffy feathers that the hawk didn't strike anything vital.
That story was followed by another story of a woman who was stopped at a traffic light and a car-jacker jumped into the car with a gun. She remembered the story and wanted to claim God's promise of protection, but all she could remember was "feathers" and she just started screaming "feathers" over and over again. The car-jacker was so bewildered that he jumped out and ran away!
So, dearest T2L, God has you safely under His warm, soft, fluffy feathers right now. Rest there. You don't need to peak out; you just rest there awhile. He's got you covered.
[size:17pt]*hugs*[/size]
I don't think your pastor was discarding you. I think he is trying to minister to you and to lighten your load, so you can focus on what is most important right now.
I love Beth Moore and did her "Daniel" Bible Study last year. In it she says there are three types of deliverance God can provide when we face a fiery furnace (a trial or tribulation or testing or refining of our faith):
1. He can deliver us FROM the fiery furnace: He can take away the problem.
2. He can deliver us THROUGH the fiery furnace: He doesn't remove the problem, but He gives us strength and we grow as we survive.
3. He can deliver us HOME. In other words, some fiery furnaces we simply don't survive. But then again, being delivered home is a good ending too.
It looks like #2 is what's in God's plan, for the refining of your faith. And who knows who you will be able to minister to as a result of having gone through this.
I know that doesn't take away your pain. It's just something to remember, when you can, to possibly lessen the pain. Please don't feel discouraged or like I'm preaching to you saying you should be cheerful or whatever. There are prolly more eloquent ppl who could express this better. Just take it and think on it when/if it helps.
Also, the thing about "feathers." Somewhere, I think in a Beth Moore study and also in a Women's Devotional Bible, there was a thing about feathers, based on Psalm 91:4. There was a story about a mother hen who gathered all her chicks under her wings just as a hawk struck. Her feathers went everywhere but the hawk didn't get any chicks, and flew away. Then all the chicks came out, and the mother was ok too because she was so full of fluffy feathers that the hawk didn't strike anything vital.
That story was followed by another story of a woman who was stopped at a traffic light and a car-jacker jumped into the car with a gun. She remembered the story and wanted to claim God's promise of protection, but all she could remember was "feathers" and she just started screaming "feathers" over and over again. The car-jacker was so bewildered that he jumped out and ran away!
So, dearest T2L, God has you safely under His warm, soft, fluffy feathers right now. Rest there. You don't need to peak out; you just rest there awhile. He's got you covered.
[size:17pt]*hugs*[/size]
Oh Jayne, I am in tears and you weren't even posting to me. That was a beautiful encouragement.
{{{{{{Jayne}}}}}}
{{{{{T2L}}}}}}}}}
Dearest,
I am so sorry I've not been around.
With all that's gone on in my family coupled with moving AND Christmas, I maxed out on overload and my bod shut me down for 3 days (migraine during Christmas - YIPPEE).
I have been thinking of you.
So, dearest T2L, God has you safely under His warm, soft, fluffy feathers right now. Rest there. You don't need to peak out; you just rest there awhile. He's got you covered.
How funny. I always think of Him "holding me" in His hand.
When I need carrying, I actually picture His ginormous, warm, caring hand enveloping me entirely and keeping me safe.
You need to do this for your husband, too, T2L.
You spend a LOT of time worrying about him...and it's time to trust God with the wayward. He is far more capable of dealing with a waynerd than ANY of us are...and your sanity needs a break from the worry.
I want you to practice giving it over to Him. Every time you begin to think on the waynerd, STOP yourself and visualize handing the waynerd to God.
It'll take a lot of practice, but you'll get there if you practice it. And if you do it enough, you'll feel that knot in your stomach loosen and feel yourself getting to a better spot mentally than you've been in a long while.
Practice every day, okay?
T2L? You there? Are you okay? I hope you've been reading these last few posts and finding some encouragement.
Goodmorning, all.
Thanks for the post. Yes I have read them, and the Text too Lil doggie.
I'm not in a good place right now. I've never been this bad. I took my wedding rings last night and threw them over the fence in my back yard out into the fields and i could care less. I honestly don't even want to see them again. I am sorry I didn't respond to the post, I just really have nothing good to say at this point so it's probably best to refrain.
I mean all this started because of H, and the 1 thing I really enjoy and loved doing is leading worship, has been removed and thats because of him as well. If I wasn't struggling to bad over this crap here it wouldn't of happened and that's why I threw my rings. I understand that my Pastor totally loves me and kids and that he has to do what is necessary for the betterment of the entire church and not just 1 and he did say that he doesn't want me thinking about everything right now, but sometimes that was the thing that helped me to not think as much. But whatever, I certainly don't want to be a hindrance to the Spirit of God during a worship service so I will step aside quietly and respectfully.
I notified via email the new leader and gave him all the phone numbers and asked him if he needed any thing and I would get it to him, but I also said I will not be there Sunday. I am not sure when I can go back, I am really hurt now and humiliated and feel like I'm done and empty. Really surprised I am posting as I feel like I don't want to talk to a single sole. In my 15 years walking with God and this church, I have scrubbed many toilets and vacuumed, worked the tape ministry for several years, worked in children's church and youth ministry, worked in the office and answered phones, sang on the team and lead teams and did what ever was needed and all because of my H everything has changed and really, the T2L that always sees good and sees God and believes best and does the right thing and not the wrong and always perseveres doesn't want to anymore.
I have always had a fight in my and think it's gone. I don't want to go back to church. I feel angry that If I don't go, H wins and if I don't go everything I have told my kids about not quitting will go down the drain and yet part of me doesn't even care anymore. I even thought I can get someone to come pick them up for church as completely lame as that sounds. I know for sure I will not attend Sunday, I just can't.
I told DS10 that mommy is going to let Mr. Friend lead and step back so I can take more time with you guys and not have so much to do, but I told DD17 that Pastor asked me to step down and he had been watching me and that he doesn't want that pressure on me right now. She seemed frustrated, so if you all can encourage her too on her thread. I told her Pastor loves with all his heart and that he would never do this unless it was necessary.
H is still asking questions to DD17, mild ones but questions. So feel free to keep talking to her and kinda keeping her accountable to using the IDK answer for EVERYTHING. She answers some things, like last night I told the kids that if H calls after 9 you cannot talk, I am tired of the late calling.
So he called few minutes after 9 and asked where DS10 was and she said to him and mom went to bed, which was kinda true as we were in my bed watching a movie and he kept on her asking why so early and asking her if he was in public or private school when he knows darn well the answer and I said respond everything as IDK dad. She made if 50% but would like to see any and all and every question pertaining to DS10 and myself to a IDK dad. So if you can ask her how she's doing with that and encourage her please even questions regarding bedtime and school should be IDK because its not her responsibility to inform him, and to only speak with him. And maybe to encourage he in the Lord and about church to as I am empty and sometimes it's better when she hears those things from anyone other than momma.
I will try to come on later, i will try. Thanks for the encouragement and I understand and would have even said those things to others, I just have no feelings right now, maybe shock, maybe my pride. Maybe a few days the shock will wear off IDK.
Do you know i have cried so much the since Thanksgiving that I actually lost an entire spot of eyelashes! Only happens when I cry too much. Do you know it takes over 3 months for them to grow back!
T2L,
Urgent prayers going up for you.
Please take good care of yourself. Try to exercise, as that might help some.
You have done an excellent Plan A and Plan B, and hopefully this is just a little setback.
And please go find your rings.................
{{{{{T2L}}}}}
What you are feeling is normal. You are again suffering direct consequences from the affair. It sucks, it hurts, it's unfair and it's not right.
You are allowed to have a day or two to pull yourself up off the floor from this last blow.
But...and this is a big but...
Do not forget who the enemy is.
Allowing this situation to cut you off from the body of Christ, makes who happy?
I'm sure that you are correct that your pastor is doing what he thinks is best for his flock, which includes you. I am sure he has prayed about this siutation.
But how you respond to it can allow satan a big toe into your heart.
You NEED your fellow believers around you right now. It is critical for your spiritual safety.
I realize being there on this first Sunday with the new worship leader will be painful. And if you feel it is too much to bear, maybe you and the kids can take a weekend road trip.
But do not let this separate you from the believers who love you. That will please no one but satan.
Is there a close friend that you could attend with that first Sunday you go back? Just having someone to walk in with, carrying your burden for you, sitting with you, knowing your sorrow, speaking to you through her eyes, and praying you through that service.
If you let this stop you from attending church, I am going to be very worried about you.
Don't you remember...
I told you, when satan takes out the head of the household, he gets a foothold in every family member's life.
He's looking at you right now, and plotting his destruction.
Fight back!
I told you, when satan takes out the head of the household, he gets a foothold in every family member's life.
He's looking at you right now, and plotting his destruction.
Fight back!
This is the ABSOLUTE truth.
(((((((((((((T2L))))))))))))))))
It's time to see your physician and ask about depression.
{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}} T2L, you have been like a rock to others during this time -- especially me. I just was catching up a little bit on your sitch. I am sorry to hear about you about the church ministry. I know with the holidays, plan b and now this I know it must have hit you hard.
I agree about possibly going to a doctor and talking about depression. Need to take care of yourself. Especially if your fog does not lift in the next few days.
I know you are angry, upset, confused and feeling lost. My heart goes out to you.
I met a woman on the beach some months back right when husband left me. We started walking and I told her about my troubles. She held my hands and prayed with me. She said to me believe it or not you are right where God wants you to be now. It is not for us to decide but see which direction he wants us to go. I never saw her again and sometimes I swear she must have been an angel to give me comfort. I hope that someone touches you the same way. Please reach out, let me know if you want to talk. Take care and God bless.
It's time to see your physician and ask about depression.
I cannot do that. In my younger years, early 20's, I used drugs. I stopped the very day I was converted to Christianity, and have never touched them since.
I have an addictive personality, I know this about me. It terrifies me at the thought of relying on pharmaceuticals, I know this sounds crazy. I'm a health nut. I don't eat bread, I don't drink milk, I don't eat anything in a box if I can help it, unless of course if its on Sunday and I give myself permission to eat anything and everything on that day. I haven't been exercising though since this all started and I know that, that can raise my endorphins and help me.
Plus my sister took anti-depressants while she lived in Alaska for 2 years(military) and she said she had to stop after a day because she could feel sad BUT she couldn't feel happy either, she couldn't feel at all. No worries there, I can't really feel anything. I want to be clear minded even if in pain as absolutely lame that sounds.
I promise I will go out today, the sun is shining and I think we may get close to 69 here. I'll take advantage of the sunlight and fresh air. I'll take DS10 and the dog.
I will try and force myself to go to church, I can't this week but I will try after the next. The Pastor still wants me on the platform singing full time, but that If I need a day off where I don't want to that its fine. I think he knew I would just want to give up and leave and this was his way of stopping that.
EDIT: Darnnit did it again, DD17 didn't log out...this Is Momma T2L LOL
EDIT: Darnnit did it again, DD17 didn't log out...this Is Momma T2L LOL
OKay
Exercise will work much quicker than anti-D's. It IS lovely out today - get out and exercise!!!!!!!!!!!
T2L, I had the same conversation on my thread during tst's affair. I said very similar things as you are right now, so I fully understand where you are coming from and support you in using methods other than meds to take care of your emotional and physical health.
We try to stay away from refined sugars and flours. I mill our wheat, kamut, oats and other grains to make our flour for baking. We had a time where we consumed no dairy or gluten.
You know you need to exercise to help your body combat depression by releasing endorphins, as you mentioned above. If you will start focusing on YOURSELF, you will come through this. You are going to have to put caring for yourself at the top of the list. Your children will suffer, as well as you, if you do not.
You know what you need to know to deal with this in the healthiest possible manner, don't you?
You know you need to:
take vitamins
exercise daily (I did a lot of tai chi and pilates during the A)
eat healthy
maintain a healthy sleep routine as best you can
establish a strong network of support here and IRL
worship, pray, and read Scripture
Other things that might help:
EFA's (MelodyLane has posted that these helped her)
St. John's Wort (herbal medicine)
Ignatia homeopathic remedy (I had this on hand from my homeopathic DO and found it very helpful for grieving)
Your emotional reaction yesterday was a perfectly sane response to your situation.
Now you have to pick yourself up off the floor and nurse yourself back to health.
I think I saw somewhere on here that you used to homeschool. I have been homeschooling for about 15 years. Did you enroll your son in school due to the affair, or was he already enrolled?
What's your regular daily routine?
Finally, something I think I can be helpful about.
Anti anxiety and anti depression medications are way improved over the past few years.
They do not have the same side effects:
Most are not addictive.
Depending on the person, they can be weight neutral or weight reducing.
As you get older, they are very helpful with hormonal changes, changes that stress, panic and anxiety make worse.
Most you are only on short term 6 mos to 2 years.
Make sure you are diagnosed by a dedicated professional- you want the right type (if you go) and some general MD's dont understand the wonderful, new alternitives for people.
I was an a$$, and did not want to "go on psycho pills". Did not want weight, not feeling "normal" or not being able to feel "happy"....-- What a crock of Sh*t I sold myself on!"
For me nothing could be more far from the truth. I am on a very low dose, and I double up the week "aunt flo'" visits--
I can now sleep, feel happy- not feel triggers as much as before- tho if I don't eat well I get an upset stomach. to be truthful.
But the side effects are WAY BETTER than the anxiety and panic.
Do not discount modern medication based on what you thought you know-- It has grown by leaps and bounds. It takes a dedicated doctor and patient-
Lots of my students have been on medications, too. Sometimes I have to report on behaviors I observe. I find that modern meds are making life improvements all the time.
I have to agree. I'm on Paxil and Wellbutrin and the only side effect I've ever had is ringing in the ears. Any my doctor's best friend initiated a study that proved that Wellbutrin can be used to help people lose weight. No numbness, no zombie, no nothing, except more of a willingness to get off the couch and accomplish something.
T2L, I had the same conversation on my thread during tst's affair. I said very similar things as you are right now, so I fully understand where you are coming from and support you in using methods other than meds to take care of your emotional and physical health.
We try to stay away from refined sugars and flours. I mill our wheat, kamut, oats and other grains to make our flour for baking. We had a time where we consumed no dairy or gluten.
You know you need to exercise to help your body combat depression by releasing endorphins, as you mentioned above. If you will start focusing on YOURSELF, you will come through this. You are going to have to put caring for yourself at the top of the list. Your children will suffer, as well as you, if you do not.
You know what you need to know to deal with this in the healthiest possible manner, don't you?
You know you need to:
take vitamins
exercise daily (I did a lot of tai chi and pilates during the A)
eat healthy
maintain a healthy sleep routine as best you can
establish a strong network of support here and IRL
worship, pray, and read Scripture
Other things that might help:
EFA's (MelodyLane has posted that these helped her)
St. John's Wort (herbal medicine)
Ignatia homeopathic remedy (I had this on hand from my homeopathic DO and found it very helpful for grieving)
Your emotional reaction yesterday was a perfectly sane response to your situation.
Now you have to pick yourself up off the floor and nurse yourself back to health.
I think I saw somewhere on here that you used to homeschool. I have been homeschooling for about 15 years. Did you enroll your son in school due to the affair, or was he already enrolled?
What's your regular daily routine?
Yes I do know what to do, exactly what to do, darnit!
Yes I take multi, calcium, EFA's and green pills. I have tried 5-HTP and some other things too. I feel a little better talking with you guys instead of shutting down. And even answered a call from a friend from church who is close to me-that's big in my world cuz if I get to shut down mode, which is rare, I won't talk at all.
Yes I am a new home schooler. DS10 begged me for years and i avoided it mostly for social skills but since the onset of this he begged again, and asked his dad during Plan A because of the cost of the books, and H said yes. We are only 1 month into it. We are using Alpha and Omega Curriculum. I am searching for a play group right now. Have an email out that I am waiting for a response to as DS10 wants to play. DD17 enrolled in Feb at charter school that is like home school. She completes 2 packets weekly and goes in for testing twice a week. She is doing so well that she will be finished with High school early hopefully, as long as she doesn't fail any tests, be done in March.
I will pick myself up, even though I don't want to I already know I will. It pisses me off that I just want to do the wrong thing and I almost can't go against my own self and DNA!
My Pastor many years ago had prayed for me. He didn't know us that well as we had only been at the church for 2 years at that time and he said God put Holiness in you to where you are always drawn to the right things, you can't even stop your self and at times you get ridiculed because of it but don't despise it because its from God. I couldn't even believe it because he was so right. I literally can't stop myself and at this moment I want to!
I am up and around not laying in bed like I wanted to yesterday. Cleaned up the kitchen, kids are out front washing cars-whoo hooo I really didn't want to wash my truck but DS10 is doing it and its giving him something to do.
Just ate a plate of fresh spinach i cooked in some broth. I know probably sounds yucky but was sooo yummy and I figured I could use the detox it provides to rid off all the poisons I released in my body from all the stress....yes I am weird.
I am not going to church this Sunday for sure. I am going to allow myself it off and go from there.
Oh yeah forgot to mention last night in my pissed offness i shut down my MySpace that the Poophead Mr. T2L was looking at and changed the answer machine to the computer generated voice so he cant hear me and just in case he remembered the family website, changed the password too so he can't get in.
Feel better about that, and I know that throwing your wedding rings into a park field in the dead of night was probably wrong, but actually feel better about that too. I actually feel really good about that oddly enough.
Exercise is critical.
You know that right?
You can do all the other things and not exercise, and your energy level will not increase and your mood will not improve.
OMG you guys. How on earth did I get so lucky. I am crying-no worries its good this time.
DD17 poked her head in and says momma my boyfriend is paying me back today and I want to go get some paint so we can start painting your bed room. Sometimes she can be your typical 17 year old just in the way that they get selfish but what a sweet thing.
How on earth did I get such an amazing 17 year old???
{{{{{ T2L }}}}}
JMHO but I think taking one week off to rest will be good for you. Yes that first time back will be difficult, so doing something like planning a family trip would be wonderful, and then finding a dear friend to go with you the next weekend is a great idea. Any longer than that and it will just get harder and harder to go back.
On anti-depressants: First I want to add my voice to the folks saying they have improved vastly over the years. Second, I want to add my voice to the encouragement to try other things mentioned, if you are really opposed to ADs. Yes, exercise has been shown to be as effective in some cases as ADs. And this is a great list:
take vitamins
exercise daily (I did a lot of tai chi and pilates during the A)
eat healthy
maintain a healthy sleep routine as best you can
establish a strong network of support here and IRL
worship, pray, and read Scripture
Other things that might help:
EFA's (MelodyLane has posted that these helped her)
St. John's Wort (herbal medicine)
Ignatia homeopathic remedy (I had this on hand from my homeopathic DO and found it very helpful for grieving)
and as you already mentioned 5HTP should be added. I think maybe Valerian root too.
But I would like you to at least consider ADs. I am on Wellbutrin and there's no way at all that my emotions are muted or dulled! LOL All it did was help me climb enough out of the deep dark pit of depression that I could start taking action in my life. It did not make the highs less high; and it didn't make the every-day lows less low. It only softened the chronic low that was chemical-induced due to being depressed too long. I still tear up at movies. I still get angry at H. I still get sad about sad events. I still rejoice, feel exuberant, enjoy sunsets and the smell of autumn in the wind, etc. In the depths of the deepest pit, I did NOT feel the entire spectrum of emotions. It sounds like you aren't feeling an entire spectrum of emotions either.
If you were diabetic, I hope you'd be willing to take insulin, even if you want to put only healthy things into your body. Insulin wouldn't be a drug, it would be medicine.
Caffeine is a drug. If you drink or eat anything with caffeine, then you are already "using" drugs, the question is, is it a bad drug or a dangerous drug?
Medicine when used properly is even more justifiable than caffeine.
Don't forget the story of the guy standing on the roof in the flood now!
I carry Rescue Remedy with me at all times.
Also take a complete B, and calcium WITH magnesium - make sure you get 100% daily of both (fartknocker vitamin guys sometimes don't pack a whole 100% in a single pill so READ the labels).
The magnesium helps the absorption of the calcium (plus it keeps you from getting bound up - and not in any kind of fun way
).
I utilized these meds along with St. John's Wort when I didn't have any insurance and they helped a lot. Surprisingly, they also had the added effect of keeping my blood pressure lower - I have high bp.
Do you have a treadmill? I'll jump on mine and you can jump on yours and we could work out "together" and be each other's shoulders.
We also just got that ab zapper do-hickey and it WORKS. Holy schmo! It works out muscles in my tumbular area that I didn't even know I had! (betcha you guys didn't know you have a tumbular area either SO THERE!
) But it's not like the ads for it...you can't just turn it on and not know you're working out. It's more like you turn it on and lie really still and watch the clock and when a warm down is over you think, "HOLEEE BAT-DOOKEY! HERE WE GO AGAIN!" and "HOLEE SCHMOLEY! IS THE 30 MINUTES DONE YET????" I've also been known to lose it on the kids yelping, "Don't TOUCH ME RIGHT NOW...THIS FARTIN' MACHINE IS KILLING YOUR MOMMA!!!"
But it's working.
Anywho. Call me if you need a voice or a shoulder or just someone to pat your back and say "wooza." We all need woozas and times like this, you need them double.
All my love,
Kimmy
How on earth did I get such an amazing 17 year old???
She takes after her momma.
(saying this as respectfully as possible)
I'm sorry, but......
Come on folks. Enough with trying to convince T2L that she needs AD's. How about supporting her decisions to stay the course naturally without the aid of drugs that can and do have adverse side effects for some. She also has expressed that she has an addictive personality, another good reason to avoid AD's in her case.
As a recovering alcoholic & addict myself, I think it is perfectly acceptable for her to have the boundary of no AD's. This is also a boundary of mine. Hence, learning healthy alternatives becomes important.... as T2L has done so well.
Everyone on this thread has been so remarkable in the advice they have given. But please remember we need to respect each others personal health choice boundaries. T2L has made some wonderful and amazing progress and needs to stay focused on the discussion of her M and not get side tracked into an AD pro & con discussion.
Just my respectful .02
Painting sounds good. Also, do you have any walls that you need to knock down? That would be helpful. Also tossing stuff out and organizing.
If you are used to running, I think that is the best exercise. I'm an old lady and I run 5 miles EVERY day. It doesn't take long, and feels GREAT.
I do support her decision to not use ADs if that's what she really wants. As I said, according to at least some studies, exercise is as effective as ADs. So I added my voice to the reminder to exercise, take vitamins, etc.
I just wanted to gently urge her to *consider* ADs with the knowledge that they aren't like they used to be and that they don't have to dull the emotions, which is one of the things she mentioned as a concern.
After considering (or even without considering; she doesn't have to do anything I suggest) then I fully support her taking more natural steps to climb out of depression. Not all people can do it naturally at all times.
I hope you didn't feel pressured by me or anyone else, T2L. In no way do I mean to pressure you, only to support you.
*hugs*
ETA: What a wonderful daughter you have!!! What a great idea, in so many ways!
I carry Rescue Remedy with me at all times.
I had no Rescue Remedy on hand on D-Day.
Painting sounds good. Also, do you have any walls that you need to knock down? That would be helpful. Also tossing stuff out and organizing.
I ripped up our carpeting. I love hard wood and that was what was underneath. Thanfully, it was in good shape.
If you are used to running, I think that is the best exercise. I'm an old lady and I run 5 miles EVERY day. It doesn't take long, and feels GREAT.
Wow, B! Five miles every day. That is impressive. Good for you!
I had no Rescue Remedy on hand on D-Day.
What's that? What's Rescue Remedy?
Oh no offense taken to any one. I've thought about it and I am going to try to keep to the natural course and IF for any reason I wig out then I'll consider it. For now, guess I'll be off to the vitamin store. That's oddly enough a Disneyland type place for someone like me. I love the Health food store even if I don't buy anything, its such an adventure...Hey is that laughing I hear?
Yes, run to the vitamin store. Don't forget vitamin B.
I am a health nut and have used anti-D's, and I don't even take aspirin. But exercise works much quicker.
My problem was that when I was depressed after D-day, I just couldn't make myself exercise.
What's that? What's Rescue Remedy?
You can order this online or check with health food stores.
LINK for online store that carries rescue remedy Hope that helps
Oh yeah forgot to mention last night in my pissed offness i shut down my MySpace that the Poophead Mr. T2L was looking at and changed the answer machine to the computer generated voice so he cant hear me and just in case he remembered the family website, changed the password too so he can't get in.
Feel better about that, and I know that throwing your wedding rings into a park field in the dead of night was probably wrong, but actually feel better about that too. I actually feel really good about that oddly enough.
Because you took action
action is a pretty good anti depressant
Well guess what folks we have(you see how I say we and included you all...LOL) our 1st break in PB boundaries by Mr. Poophead himself!
That rat just sent me a text! That bloody stinkin RAT! It took 6 weeks and 2 days for him to do it but, he did it. NO worries I did NOT respond and I AM NOT going to! Sorry bud but you messed with the wrong girl and your gonna figure out what you need to do and that's it it it it it!
I would not have read it as it was out of the blue and totally unexpected because he hasn't tried contacting me directly.
So IM's I am going to be sending you a email, but give me about an hour, gotta compose it.
Ok here's why. Had 2 overdraft charges by accident due to Christmas shopping. Its not something I do normally, but still. That's what drew his but out??? (2)$35 charges!
ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
I'll be emailing you shortly too, now that a zillion defrags has my computer functioning nearly normally again.
Send us the info, we'll do a little IM huddle and decide how to handle it.
GREAT job not responding.
OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Ok I have not renewed DS10 cell phone as I do not want his dad going straight to him.
Guess what he just sent DD17 on her cell phone? A picture of DS10 new cell phone MY GOD WHAT IS NEXT?!?!?!?
Do I have to give this phone to my son?????
Man, he's just *desperate* for some sort of contact!
Re. DS10's cell phone: You are the parent in your house. You make the rules of your house as you see fit and in consideration of what's best for the family. If he turns into Mr. Sugardaddy himself and you think it isn't good for the kids to have a ton of materialistic and expensive gifts, you have the right - you have the responsibility! - to not allow harmful or inappropriate things into your house.
Perhaps you could FedEx the phone to your IMs with an explanation. Hmmm, if he doesn't talk to the IMs how will he ever find out what happened to his cell phone, and how will he ever get it back?
(I bet the IMs know that there's a charity that takes unwanted cell phones and distributes them to women's shelters.
Of course that's only if he never claims it!)
I'm sure he IMs are handling this texting to you business. This is a great opportunity to force the issue of the IMs. If you refuse to communicate directly to him, and if DD17 can keep saying just "IDK", then what's left???
BIG HUGE KUDOS BTW on eliminating the online contact he had, via MySpace etc!
All these closing avenues, it sure seems like he's getting more and more desperate... SUCH is the power of DARK!!!!! GO DARK!!!!!
All these closing avenues, it sure seems like he's getting more and more desperate... SUCH is the power of DARK!!!!! GO DARK!!!!!
I love that
It really does seem like he is upping the ante here.
T2L
That's awesome!!!! I'm going to the Health food store tomorrow. Already called them and they have it in. Yeah!
{{{{Luke}}}} I am your {{{{{Father}}}}}} Ok I had to!
“The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural.”
-Senator Palpatine
Is it still considered dark if I paint myself in glow in the dark paint while I'm going dark?
Yoda quotes just for T2L!!!!
"Already know you that which you need..."
"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view."
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."
"You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive." A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. "
"Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things."
"Always in motion is the future."
"Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you."
Yup, I am that nerdy
This is something I have been wanting to post to you for several days, but wasnt sure about one bit. Thanks for giving me the go ahead
The purple bits are particulary for you.
Desiderata
Go placidly amidst the noise and haste
and remember what peace there may be in silence
As far as possible without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others;
even the dull and ignorant, for they too have their story
Avoid loud and agressive persons for they are vexatious to the spiritIf you compare yourself with others you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your career, however humble, for it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time
Exercise caution in your business life for everywhere there is trickery
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism
Be yourselfEspecially do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love, for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortuneBut do not distress yourself with dark imaginings;
many fears are born of fatigue and lonelinessBeyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars.
You have a right to be hereAnd whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Be at peace with God, whatever you conceive him to be
And whatever your labours and aspirations, keep peace in your soul
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams it is still a beautiful world
Be cheerful
Strive to be happy. Max Erhmann 1927
Okay so Lildoggie told me how to add pics to your posts so I'm gonna try it.
Here's a couple pics of the T2L family, of course with out Mr. T2L. Hope it works.
T2L, DD17 and DS10 in May 08 T2L, DD17, and DS10 June 08
Yoda quotes just for T2L!!!!
"Already know you that which you need..."
"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view."
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."
"You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive." A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. "
"Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things."
"Always in motion is the future."
"Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you."
Yup, I am that nerdy
Man that darn Yoda has it goin on! I am just wondering if I shoulda married Yoda instead??
LMAO
“The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural.”
-Senator Palpatine
Ok, so my lil brain was trying to recall what state Palpatine was from, and why lil in Kiwiland was familiar with him, and why he was quoting Star Wars in an election year!
(I got it now, no worries!)
OMG Y'all are gorgeous! In picture 1, I was trying to figure out which one was the mom and which was the DD... I thought I knew but wasn't sure... I'm not kidding, I guessed wrong!
And who's the gorgeous honey in the second pic, and where'd ya get her? him????
“The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities, some considered to be unnatural.”
-Senator Palpatine
Ok, so my lil brain was trying to recall what state Palpatine was from, and why lil in Kiwiland was familiar with him, and why he was quoting Star Wars in an election year!
(I got it now, no worries!)
Actually, he's from Texas. That's WH-Gray's attorney. The name I gave him, anyway!!
Of course, I'm talking about the Palpitine from ROTJ. I haven't seen the last three that Lucas made. I have NO idea if Palpitine is in those.
What can I say? I'm a purist. Maybe I'll watch them someday before I die. We'll see.
Charlotte
P.S.) Oh yeah, and as far as Plan B goes, here's another Yoda for ya': "Do or do not. There IS no TRY."
Yoda quotes just for T2L!!!!
"Already know you that which you need..."
"Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view."
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will..."
"You will know (the good from the bad) when you are calm, at peace. Passive." A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. "
"Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things."
"Always in motion is the future."
"Powerful you have become, the dark side I sense in you."
Yup, I am that nerdy
Man that darn Yoda has it goin on! I am just wondering if I shoulda married Yoda instead??
LMAO
Silly T2L, Yoda is way too old for you!!! And besides, would you really want to live in a swamp?
T2L, you have a beautiful family! I already knew you were a beautiful person inside, now I see that you're also beautiful on the outside. Your WH's an idiot for leaving a family like yours.
What can I say? I'm a purist. Maybe I'll watch them someday before I die. We'll see.
Charlotte
P.S.) Oh yeah, and as far as Plan B goes, here's another Yoda for ya': "Do or do not. There IS no TRY."
Charlotte, you're not missing anything. I will never watch them again, and I'm sorry I ever saw them in the first place.
And that is my number one favorite Yoda quote. Works for everyone.
Beautiful pictures! What a fool your hubby is!
Beautiful pictures! What a fool your hubby is!
I said the same thing.
The aliens must've messed up his optic nerves when they stole his mind....
Cos' our T2L is SMOKIN'!
I just caught up on your thread and I have to say you are amazing!! Other than a few slips you have been doing so GREAT. Your IM's and everyone else have been giving you awesome advice and I can see where they have really encouraged & inspired you during this journey.
Your family is beautiful. I see dd17 as really fantastic and your son is just adorable.
Keep up the work on yourself and stay busy. That is what pulled me thru along with a strong support and you definately have that. I pray daily for you and your family and when this is all over you will be a much stronger person.
OMG Y'all are gorgeous! In picture 1, I was trying to figure out which one was the mom and which was the DD... I thought I knew but wasn't sure... I'm not kidding, I guessed wrong!
And who's the gorgeous honey in the second pic, and where'd ya get her? him????
That is our German Shepard puppy named Shiloh. She was the alpha of that pack and she is a pill. she is half trained, but she needs to go to obedience school.
Awe thanks for the nice comments everyone, I wish H would see me the way y'all do. It would make more sense if the Sea Hag looked like a supermodel but she doesn't and I already know she has no character so it's all the more puzzling.
I am sure you all are prob wondering why those kids look nothing like me, I get it ALLLLL the time, have ever since they were born. In fact people stop us because they look nothing like. They look like their dad because I am also half Irish, so it 3/4'd them to the irish side. But promise I would never forget the pain of the labor room!
LOL!
I always say, "Their MINE - I've got the stretch marks to prove it!"
LOL!
I always say, "Their MINE - I've got the stretch marks to prove it!"
Yeah dang it I got those bloody stretch marks too and I got em bad. I guess if you don't make it over the 5ft mark God gives you double stretch marks? IDK sounded good in theory.
Funny i used to say to H look DS10 has brown eye lashes and then I would say look DD17 has my cheeks and he would always laugh at me and say NOPE, I can't see it.
I can safely say they act like me then LOL
What can I say? I'm a purist. Maybe I'll watch them someday before I die. We'll see.
Charlotte
P.S.) Oh yeah, and as far as Plan B goes, here's another Yoda for ya': "Do or do not. There IS no TRY."
Charlotte, you're not missing anything. I will never watch them again, and I'm sorry I ever saw them in the first place.
And that is my number one favorite Yoda quote. Works for everyone.
LOL, cat!!
Nevermind then!!! I won't even watch them on accident! (I don't have any desire to watch them at all, actually.)
Yeah, that Yoda quote does work for a lot of things!
Charlotte
Nevermind then!!! I won't even watch them on accident! (I don't have any desire to watch them at all, actually.)
The last one I saw was the one with Lil Anakin.
IMNSHO one of the most brilliant writings of that year --->
The Saga Begins "My my, this here Anakin guy,
Maybe Vader some day later, now he's just a small fry.
He left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye,
Saying, 'Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi,
Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi.' "
I always felt a little guilty for not watching the other movies, I guess I won't be in too big of a hurry...
Hi T2L
This is a bit off-topic but I thought of something when I read this:
That is our German Shepard puppy named Shiloh. She was the alpha of that pack and she is a pill. she is half trained, but she needs to go to obedience school.
Do you get Animal Planet? If so, watch "It's me or the dog". The trainer, Victoria, works with some of the WORST behaved dogs around. At first the show was in England, and my favorite moment was when a former fashion model and Great Dane lover was dragged down the street by her third Dane, a very rambuctuous puppy of 8 months or so (and well over 125 pounds!). He became a loving and well-behaved dog under her direction-mostly training the owners.
Now she is in the states and it's really informative. My dog, a 7-year-old Jack Russell, was also the alpha of the litter. I had her trained mostly (except for barking at the door no matter who is was) and Victoria's techniques are working on her.
IMNSHO one of the most brilliant writings of that year --->
The Saga Begins "My my, this here Anakin guy,
Maybe Vader some day later, now he's just a small fry.
He left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye,
Saying, 'Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi,
Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi.' "
LOL, Flick has a copy of that, but then again he has most of Weird Al's stuff.
Hello,
I think I have never posted to you, but I've been following your sitch for a long time....
OMG Y'all are gorgeous! In picture 1, I was trying to figure out which one was the mom and which was the DD...
I know!!! I wasn't sure which was the momma and which was DD....you have a beautiful family.
It's nice now to know the face of the person that made me cry whenever she gave the PBL to her WH!!
You come across like a very nice, godly and friendly person!!
Angie.
T2L, you are absolutely beautiful! But I knew that long before I saw your picture. Your beauty has been shining throughout this thread.
And you all are cracking me up with the Star Wars. Being a mother of 4 boys (and 1 girl but she doesn't count when it comes to Star Wars), I have seen every Star Wars movie MANY times....TOO many times.
We also have the entire set of Star Wars Jedi Apprentice books that my boys absolutely LOVE.
Yoda, is quoted around here a lot.
:happynewyear:
HAPPY NEW YEARS(TOMORROW)
THIS YEAR WE HAD ALOT OF HURT!!
THINGS WILL CHANGE THIS YEAR...
AND I JUST WANNA GIVE A THANKS TO ALL OF YOU GUYS ON HERE THAT HAVE HELPED MY MOM... I THINK WITHOUT YOU GUYS SHE WOULDNT BE DOING AS WELL AS SHE IS...
YOU GUYS HAVE HELPED HER SOOOO MUCH..
HAPPY NEW YEARS (TOMORROW) TO YOU ALL TOO...
DD17
Just checking in. Nothing new to report. H has asked a few questions to DD17 but she has answered him with the IDK. They were minor questions but I told ALL questions even minor ones concerning me and her brother are to be answered with IDK so she's doing well with it.
I am guessing that if H visits kids tomorrow that he will try to slip DS10 the cell phone that he bought him "so he can reach him anytime and talk to him all day".
Ya know funny thing is I have not prevented him from calling so I really dont know why he needed to do that. But I will search thoroughly through DS10's clothing when he comes home.
I know this sounds really dumb, but do I need to give H a reason or even tell him that DS10 cannot have the cell phone? I wanted to say he left it in his pocket again and it got washed but then DS10 would have to back the lie and I don't want him to do that. I guess I am being a wimp and trying to avoid the fact that he will more than likely be pissed off that I won't let him use the cell phone.
I sent the Pastor and email, as he is out of town for the week, letting him know that I need to take a hiatus for a few weeks to sort through some things and that I didn't want to do it with out his blessing and covering of the church and that I would return mid January. Haven't heard back yet because he is on a mini vacation with his family.
Anyways I think I am going to totally go through my room and closets and start trashing and organizing again. I want to do that before I paint.
Have a great day everyone.
Perfect time to practice being the head of the household by telling WH you will not allow your son to have a cell phone you did not agree to. WH being mad is the only way he will learn. You can do it!
Hey T2L?
I tried to explain to your dau about forgiving someone who is still actively hurting her...dunno if I did it right.
I hope you don't mind...but I told her it's okay NOT to forgive someone who is STILL hurting you, but if she felt the need to do it for herself, it's okay....
It's just that I don't think it's healthy to let someone you've forgiven KNOW that they are forgiven even tho they are still harming you.
That's kinda like giving the hurter permission to keep hurting (in their eyes). KWIM?
Ug.
Still don't know if I'm 'splainin' it right.
Hey T2L?
I tried to explain to your dau about forgiving someone who is still actively hurting her...dunno if I did it right.
I hope you don't mind...but I told her it's okay NOT to forgive someone who is STILL hurting you, but if she felt the need to do it for herself, it's okay....
It's just that I don't think it's healthy to let someone you've forgiven KNOW that they are forgiven even tho they are still harming you.
That's kinda like giving the hurter permission to keep hurting (in their eyes). KWIM?
Ug.
Still don't know if I'm 'splainin' it right.
Nah makes perfect sense to me. I feel the same way. Her dad has says I know what I did was wrong and that only acknowledgment of a wrong action that doesn't not mean he is repentant or have Godly sorrow over what he's done and I don't think that he does.
So you are right on. Its good for her to hear things besides just from momma.
Plus I trust you all. If I didn't I would not have allowed her to post. So its good.
No worries you splaind poy-fec-ly!
Isn't in it weird that half,probably more, of the world just doesn't think right and they consider us the weirdos? Its so wierd to me.
I have this really close friend who is going through a divorce. She's a really great person, Her H is a [censored]. Cheated 4 times and lots of other stuff, adn she stayed and then he slapped her with papers. Anyways I always try to encourage her to fight for more custody for the kids as 1 of them has learning issues and the H will not take proper care of them. We live in California and she says that there's nothing you can do and the journals you are keeping wont help you and that the courts feel 50/50 is better and you will look like a bitter fool trying to fight. I told her that If I have to go that route, I am hoping not, that I would fight tooth and nail for my kids and that I don't care who I look stupid in front of I am willing to for my kids. Then she says I sound crazy and that it will never work. I really hate the court systems, I really hate that California is a no fault state. She says you won't even be able to keep DS10 away from OW-ARGGGGGG! Anyways IDK, I guess I am crazy.
Some thoughts on cell phone, custody, etc...
First off, a question for you. Have you consulted a lawyer at all for separation or divorce counsel?
I did when tst left. In fact, tst's cousin found one of the best lawyer's in town for me (hehehe). This cousin was our best man for our wedding, and he and his wife have been VERY close to us throughout our family raisin' lives. This cousin confronted tst many times during the affair, and called him on all his babble, AND told me and tst that his alliances were with me and the children.
Anyway, back on track...
I met with this lawyer and explained the situation. I informed him that I had every intention of busting up this affair and saving my marriage; but if that did not happen, I wanted full custody. He advised me then, that I should not file anything and wait it out unless tst became a real @ss and stopped supporting us fanancially.
This lawyer told me to call him with any problems I encountered. I did call him a few times over situations with the kids. Did I have to force DD to go on visitation? Did I have to force DD to talk with WH on phone if she didn't want to? Was I required to allow tst to call any hour he desired and talk with the kids? tst was calling after his martial arts classes, which was way past bedtime and expecting to speak with the kids. It was interfering with our daily routine and causing me much grief during the bedtime hours.
Here's what he told me (we are not in CA, though).
1. DD does not have to visit dad if she doesn't want to. I needed to be careful that I do not DISCOURAGE her from visiting or talking with dad, but I can SUPPORT her in HER decision to not speak to or see him.
2. I can set times that he may call when the children are with me, so that he doesn't interfere with our daily schedule. He said that just like if the kids were enrolled in school, they would not be allowed to talk on the phone with dad; he should not be able to call and interfere with our daily school routine. And that I could set a time for him to call BEFORE bed time and if he called after, tell him the children were in bed for the night. That is was I did. I told him to call between 7-8, as the younger children's bedtimes had been 8 p.m. FOREVER...and he had been the one to strictly enforce it.
tst was so furious. But I stood my ground.
I guess my whole point in this is exactly what my lawyer expressed to me.
Set your boundaries clearly because you are in charge of their daily routines, and he has no right to expect he can disrupt the routines. BUT be careful that you do not look like you are ENCOURAGING your children to cut WH off or prevent them from having him in their lives.
I'm concerned that if you ditch DS's cell, you may hurt yourself. Another idea could be to have certain times that DS can have it. Inform the IM's of the times DS will have it, and they can pass it on to Mr. Idiot.
I don't know. It's tough. tst called anytime of day he felt like it, regardless of our schedule. He even told the kids to call him whenever they felt like it. That caused a lot of grief for me when I told them no, it's an hour past your bedtime; or no, you are in the middle of your schoolwork.
I would love to see some more people brainstorm on the cell phone situation before you act.
Anyone???
You could always remove the sim card and declare, "this darn phone just won't work!". He takes it back, gets another one, repeat same process.
No seriously, I would just return the cell phone with a note, "Thank you for your thoughtfulness :RollieEyes: but a cell phone is too much responsibility for a 10-yr old. You are more than welcome to call him on the home phone at 0:00 or 0:15 or 0:30 each day. If you have any questions please contact the IMs."
That leaves no room for argument. You're not asking, you're telling. If he doesn't like it, he can contact the IMs.
Yes I have consulted with 3 early after Dday. Out here in California they really push the mediation thing. Wham bam thank you mam. Agree, agree, agree and your done, but luckily I read a post from someone here, it may have been yours, where they said the Harley's discourage to go the mediator route. So I would rather fight it out with attorneys. But yes the answer to your question is Yes I have. Few of them said you'll probably lose your house and have to get a job etc etc. I really don't want to remove DS10 from home school as he is very set on it, probably more than I am. I do love our dream home but I am not clinging to it. I have not had to file anything yet as he has put money in the entire time.
My main and
most important reason to NOT file is I cannot protect DS10 from having to go to visits with OW. California does not care about OW/OM or adultery or who's fault. I cannot prevent her from being around, and you could you imagine If I have to send him for weekends to this ungodly woman's home, who saw him and the whole family and still did this. My H told me after dday that she told the office girls she wished he wasn't married, BIATCH! And her dumb a$s had accepted and engagement only a few months earlier, for her 2nd marriage!
So If I have to I will stay this way until he is old enough to make his own stance and I don't care how long it is.
I don't discourage DS10 to cut any contact with his father, in fact many times he does not want to talk and I say are you sure? But DD17 tells dad that he's gone or sleeping. She hasn't done that in a few weeks but Maybe y'all can encourage on her thread that if her brother doesn't want to talk to dad to just tell him the truth instead of making an excuse.
I mean with the cell phone thing, my worries is I cannot monitor the calls even if I specify times as I cannot stay by DS10's side for 5-6 hours a day. I was not monitoring but now I have to after his dumb remarks he made to DS10 on Saturday when we came home from the Christmas engagement with HIS brothers. He said I know they are telling you I dont love you but I do and I want to be involved in your life and I didn't get to come because my brothers didn't invite me. I said DS10 why do you think he said that? DS10 says cuz he doesn't want me to like my uncles, and I said probably. So now I have to watch more closely.
I mean I can possibly give it to him from 6-8PM, but H wants to text him to so I can't monitor what is being texted if I can't hear DS10 talking. Its easier to kinda be aware when i hear DS10 talking I can know who he is talking to.
Monday night he called and said what are you doing on Tuesday son I was thinking of coming to visit and DS10 said well its mom's day and H replies well what do you mean mom's days you live with her? So this made my son feel bad that he had to say that to his father. although I know I am not controlling it makes me feel this way. Feel like every time I turn around there is something new to put up boundaries for. I did inform my IM's about re-sending the visitation schedule and that it caused DS10 stress the other night having him ask questions and that here is the schedule again.
IM's did that email get sent? Just wondering, BCC's are good so I know what was addressed and I want to print them for my file.
But yes I am open to ideas about the cell. DS10 very badly wants it, all kids his age have one so its hard.
Hi T2L
:happynewyear:
Its 2009 here and good riddence to 2008.
That said.. a couple of things.
A cell phone put in the microwave on high for one minute, emits very pretty sparks, and does not work so well after. The damage is not apparent form the outside.
Secondly, NZ is a no fault country. To stop Flick having OW around the girls, when I signed the seperation agreement, I also filed for a mental health asesment on OW. I know from info given to me that she is actually bonofide crazy, so I said on the form that as she didi not have custody of her own 4 children, that I would concerned about her being around my 2.
It never ended up being processed but my lawyer thought I had a good chance stopping it.
NZ BTW is very, very, "lets all shake hands and move on in peace and harmony and love for the childrens sake"
Stick to your guns, and see if you have something similar there.
take the cell phone battery away - hand the battery back to son when it is calling time - and take the battery away when calling time is over
son can keep the phone (sans battery)
T2L
You do not respond to your husband sending a cell phone. That is for your I/M's to do.
In fact,
Overnight the cell to Pep - let her answer when he rings it - and she can tell him directly - bwaaahhhaaahaaahaahaa!! :evil:
A cell phone put in the microwave on high for one minute, emits very pretty sparks, and does not work so well after. The damage is not apparent form the outside.
I actually had a friend who did this. They were drunk at a pool party, jumped in the pool with the cell phone, decided to put it in the microwave to "dry it out".
They microwave was toast after that.
/TJ
Overnight the cell to Pep - let her answer when he rings it - and she can tell him directly - bwaaahhhaaahaaahaahaa!! :evil:
Great idea!!
You could always remove the sim card and declare, "this darn phone just won't work!". He takes it back, gets another one, repeat same process.
Or "accidentally" drop the cell phone in the toilet. If it still works, repeat the "accident" until it doesn't. Then return it
.
A man has a right to give his son a gift at christmas. He can give his son a cel phone- and he can have reasonable expectations to be able to contact his son on it.
Any tampering/refusal by you to interfere with this set up may not be percieved well- no matter what your intentions were.
Sorry, but I think you have no option but to allow your son to communicate with his dad- without your oversight. It is the same communication they would have on a face to face visit- you don't oversee that--
and your son likes the visits with his dad.
Here is my .02: As long as dad is not verbally abusive, name calling or saying or doing things that are easily provable to be damaging to his son (not hurtful to you) -- the phone should be your sons.
You as mom and caregiver can set limitations upon this.
Turned off at bedtime, not turned on school hours...
But another thought-
You should NOT listen or read the text msgs. You are in plan B.
Only if your son complains to you about abusive comments FIRST, you have no reason to touch that phone.
Stay on the dark side, and give your WH some credit that he will be a good father to his S. This act, I think, may be harder for you to do than you going into plan B- (the trusting that you will not evesdrop onto childrens conversations with their dad)
That fact (they will have conversations without you) will be a reality forever. If you stay married or not.
What a pain in the %$# ! I feel sorry for your situation. But I think you need to pick your battles- this does not sound like a good battle to choose.
Hope this oposing view helps,
Any tampering/refusal by you to interfere with this set up may not be percieved well- no matter what your intentions were.
I disagree. Perceived well by whom? The Courts? I don't think so because he's already started in on the son. T2L would just be protecting her son from further verbal abuse.
Sorry, but I think you have no option but to allow your son to communicate with his dad- without your oversight. It is the same communication they would have on a face to face visit- you don't oversee that--
and your son likes the visits with his dad.
Her house, her rules. Of course she can oversee his communications during face-to-face visits, because it's not within her power. This cell phone is. She can AT LEAST monitor that.
Here is my .02: As long as dad is not verbally abusive, name calling or saying or doing things that are easily provable to be damaging to his son (not hurtful to you) -- the phone should be your sons.
But he
IS being verbally abusive. Talking bad about his mother IS hurtful to her son, not just T2L. It has been the source of emotional problems for him. IF WH were a GOOD dad and T2L could trust him not to continue to cause his son emotional trauma, it would be different, but he CAN'T be trusted. Any Judge would agree with that.
You as mom and caregiver can set limitations upon this.
Turned off at bedtime, not turned on school hours...
Yes but even better she can decide whether it is harmful emotionally to son for WH to have a direct line to him to say whatever he pleases. It's obvious WH is NOT looking out for son's emotional well-being or this would not even be an issue.
But another thought-
You should NOT listen or read the text msgs. You are in plan B.
Exactly, even more reason for the phone to be returned.
Only if your son complains to you about abusive comments FIRST, you have no reason to touch that phone.
He ALREADY has, thus the controversy about the cell phone.
Stay on the dark side, and give your WH some credit that he will be a good father to his S. This act, I think, may be harder for you to do than you going into plan B- (the trusting that you will not evesdrop onto childrens conversations with their dad)
Trust a WH? A WH that has already caused his son GREAT emotional distress? Seriously?
That fact (they will have conversations without you) will be a reality forever. If you stay married or not.
That may be, but perhaps she can protect son until he's a little older and learns how to process the emotional abuse.
What a pain in the %$# ! I feel sorry for your situation. But I think you need to pick your battles- this does not sound like a good battle to choose.
He is a pain in the %$# with a proven track record. This is an IMPORTANT battle-- the emotional well-being of her son.
A man has a right to give his son a gift at christmas. He can give his son a cel phone- and he can have reasonable expectations to be able to contact his son on it.
He already gave the kids there Christmas present and he told DD17 he wanted to give the phone to him so he could talk to him whenever he wants. That can't really happen as my son is home schooled until about 1PM and needs to go to bed by 8:30. A 10 year old in home school will drop everything to answer a cell phone.
Here is my .02: As long as dad is not verbally abusive, name calling or saying or doing things that are easily provable to be damaging to his son (not hurtful to you) -- the phone should be your sons.
Not sure if you read the thread often but on the 27th my H talked with DS10 after the family get together the kids and I went to with HIS brothers and he was mad about it. I normally do not monitor calls but NOW i darn will.
H says to DS10 ya know son i know they all told you i hate you but i don't and i want to be involved in your life and they didn't invite me and i wanted to go. DS10 didn't know what to do apparently he kept saying uh-ha. I asked him why do you think dad said that and he says because he wants me to not like my uncles.
Then last night DS10 did not want to talk to his dad for New Years Eve. When he saw DD17 talking to her he turned around and went down the hall. later i asked him why he didn't want to talk and DS10 says well he says all this nobody loves me stuff and nobody invites me.
OK for GOD'S SAKE! Why do i have to invite a cheating man who is living with his girlfriend anywhere with me!!!!
But another thought-
You should NOT listen or read the text msgs. You are in plan B.
No way thats happening. DS10 is 10. And until I can be sure H is not gonna pull this guilt crap on DS10 it ain't happening. Yes I am in Plan B but those texts aren't to me they are going to be to DS10.
DS10 has enough anxiety, he still sleeps in my bed since the start of this nightmare over 8 months and has had to have some group therapy for anxiety brought on by this.
I will die for my kids Plan B or not. I didn't just spend the last 17 years doing everything I could to parent them to have H pollute them. I pretty much parented him because H's idea of parenting is anger-I will be mad at you and yell and you won't do those things(No-he never physically abused anyone) and my idea of parenting is actions=consequences.
Anyways I do respect your opinion, but feel it won't work for me.
T2L - HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Has your boy been evaluated by a psychologist? Have you relayed to that psychologist this "nobody loves me" carp that WH is feeding 10 yr old?
You may have a case for supervised visitation!
It can always get worse for a WS that throws tantrums rather than look in that danged ol' mirror life keeps wanting him to look at!
Had another thought about the cell. A very strong magnet placed on the sim card can stop it working too.
But generally, I think you just need to take control of the access of the phone. I don't think a child of 10 actually 'needs' a cell phone. Apart from you, WH and DD17 who is he going to contact anyway? Two of you live with him, and the other isn't mentally sound right now
About the cell phone: my daughters had a cell that they used while Ike and I were in Plan B. It worked well because he could call them on that and I had no contact with him. However, it was just general talk and he did not throw any verbal abuse in. So, if that was the case, I would agree that your son should have one, but since it's not, I think that you should just take it away. I also agree with Kayla that you should see about supervised visits. Your H's behavior is inexcusable!
I feel for you.
Just a year or so ago, Governor Schwartzeneger's teenage daughters didn't have cell phones because their parents thought they were too young, and didn't
need them. Hubby is all about playing games, and battling for control, and none about keeping contact with his son--with the phone as his latest tool in this power struggle with his "controlling wife". IMNSHO. :RollieEyes: He thinks it anyway, so go ahead...
CONTROL.
tl
I like the ideas of getting DS10 in to talk to a therapist about the issues mentioned, and getting legal counsel informed of the problems... for several reasons, including laying groundwork for future potential court-ordered visitations, protecting yourself against allegations, etc.
T2L - HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
Has your boy been evaluated by a psychologist? Have you relayed to that psychologist this "nobody loves me" carp that WH is feeding 10 yr old?
You may have a case for supervised visitation!
It can always get worse for a WS that throws tantrums rather than look in that danged ol' mirror life keeps wanting him to look at!
Thanks for the wishes, God I sure hope its a Happy one. Last year was by far the worst year of my entire life!
We had started therapy group with the HMO i have out her in California called Kaiser Permanente. We only made it through 3 of the 6 sessions as DS10's schedule was crazy so I decided to stop. He was in regular school at the time, then after school math lab, then rush home grab a drink and snack, jump in the car adn rush 30 minutes to 1 hour therapy group, run to the car, rush 30 minutes home, run in the house put football uniform on then rush to 2 hour football practice. So, I decided that was too for him. I am going to call tomorrow to get him back into a new 6 week therapy group.
The intake therapist said it is not uncommon to have these symptoms of anxiety he called transitional disorder and that usually they go away after a while. IDK.
But this is the problem my HMO, Kaiser Permanente, says it is not policy for them to do anything involved in custody, courts, etc. I would have to go outside the HMO and it is costly and I do not have the finances to do so at this time. I do however like their approach of solution based therapy and they let the kids help come up with solutions to conquer their problems. I like that approach a lot as opposed to medication or psychoanalyzing him. Maybe I'm weird.
Pep if you know anything more about that feel free, but that is what I was told.
Yes, I so wish that he would look in the mirror, that's gonna be a hard one for him. I don't know why but he never has been able to do that. Shoot I did it for both of us, maybe thats why.
I feel mixed about the new year. Feels good kinda like a new start but then you remember nothing has changed and everything is following you into the new year.
Went for a walk this morning. Felt really good, its beautiful here in Cali, think its gonna hit 70 today-yeah and its winter.
My backyard is connected to a park and there is a very big public duck pond just a bit further from the house so I stopped in on my way back from the walk. Called DS10 and said meet me at the pond so the 2 of us sat on a bench and watched the ducks. Was nice.
So came back both kids did not want to visit today. DD17 says i don't want to visit. Then I thought well I am not going to force you but you must tell him the truth and not protect him from consequences of what he has done. DS10 does not want to go unless DD17 is going. But oddly he has visited him 2 times before in the last 8 months with out DD17. He goes up and down about it. Anyways She wanted to tell him she was sick.
So H texted and asked if could come down and DD17 said I think its your day. So basically DD17 told me they are not visiting him today and that she did tell him the truth and not a lie. DD17 told him that she said she felt it was dumb she had to visit him and that we should be a family. He ended with have a good day. So no visit but because the kids didn't want to. What a way to start 2009.
Overall feeling okay today. I wasn't in the mood to go out last night. Did take the kids out to eat. Then came hope and went through massive closets and drawers throwing out stuff. Gonna do more today. Feels more organized, feels better. Cleaning is so therapeutic LOL Now i just need to get the kids to understand that LOL
Just a year or so ago, Governor Schwartzeneger's teenage daughters didn't have cell phones because their parents thought they were too young, and didn't
need them. Hubby is all about playing games, and battling for control, and none about keeping contact with his son--with the phone as his latest tool in this power struggle with his "controlling wife". IMNSHO. :RollieEyes: He thinks it anyway, so go ahead...
CONTROL.
tl
I couldn't agree more, that's my thoughts. I just don't get it for as much as he has accused me of controlling. Its mind bending.
I actually think his mom, OW or other retarded brother told him to get the phone. I'm pretty sure he didn't think of it. I've been with him since i was 14 and I'm pretty sure it wasn't his idea 1st.
But this is the problem my HMO, Kaiser Permanente, says it is not policy for them to do anything involved in custody, courts, etc. I would have to go outside the HMO and it is costly and I do not have the finances to do so at this time. I do however like their approach of solution based therapy and they let the kids help come up with solutions to conquer their problems. I like that approach a lot as opposed to medication or psychoanalyzing him. Maybe I'm weird.
Pep if you know anything more about that feel free, but that is what I was told.
I'm about to email you.
Is it still considered dark if I paint myself in glow in the dark paint while I'm going dark?
IMO, even a perfectly normal 10yo homeschooler does not need a cell phone. Isn't that what landlines are for? Cell phones are for when you can't access a landline.
If it weren't for the emotional abuse that already occurred, the phone issue would not be a big deal. Sure, he wouldn't need it, but would enjoy it.
But since it did occur, every effort must be made to protect him. IMO, the cell phone either needs to go, or be very strictly monitored. Monitoring is a lot of work, and I'm all in favor of just nixing the phone.
:happynewyear:
It's also a great opportunity to, um, "force the issue"? on communicating through the IM.
If T2L can't explain why or what happened to the phone because she's dark, and if DD doesn't, then how is he supposed to know if he doesn't read what the IM's send him???
If he wants to discuss it, then... well... talk to the IM cus the BW ain't listening!
Emotional abuse is NOT saying "I don't like your mom"-- "Nobody loves me", "boo-hoo I was not invited to a party--why?" or manipulative things of that nature.
< I mean really- we know on MB that type of communication is abusive, but I am talking in the eyes of a reasonable mediator or friend of the court. As sad as that sounds as I type it- I'm afraid it might be true.>
What is really seen poorly is when one parent blocks accesability to a child from the other.
I am trying to be here as a supportive voice, for you. I think you are doing a wonderful job holding your life together for you and your 'chillin-- I was pointing our a red flag I saw-
My ma worked for a divorce atty for 25 years (alas, here in Michigan- so I don't know how this would play out in Calif.) Mostly, Mr H., her boss, represented the wife, and I heard countless accounts of deeds the couples did-
Ma had to account on restraining orders, write letters, file, start actions, claims, take statements- work on emergency paperwork- you name it- for a really small town they were a 'hoppin place.
She knew, by first name, all the town atty's, judges and court people.
After years of listening to what her day went like-- I think I know a little bit of how the friend of the court counselors feel. (BTW- she never said names of the people involved.)
I was just thinking of how this would have been processed though her thinking. Of course, she never said anything to the clients- but she sometimes would tell me- that she thought they were making a mistake.
If you want to ditch the phone- do so. But realize it was started with a contract, has recordable timesheets of usage- on non usage.
IMHO the people here who think you can just destroy this item are not giving you sound advice.
So, take the phone, but take the sim card out and voila, you are accepting the gift, but also, as the parent, restricting your child from what you think might be harmful. Sure, it may have been bought on a contract and non use can be seen, but oh well. The gift was accepted, but it doesn't have to be used. Haven't we all, at one time or another, received gifts that we never use?
And, I STILL agree that you should speak to lawyer about supervised visitation. While bad mouthing the other parent may not technically be considered abuse, it's not something that a child advocate would look favorably or lightly upon.
And, that's my $0.02.
You know I wasnt actually
serious about nuking the cell???
It might hurt the microwave
I do think the custodial parent has a right to make resonable restrictions on the use of the phone, cell or landline. Children are not available to a WS whimsical fleeting need for contact. If they want the contact at any time, any day, they could just get thier heads out of their buttocks, and
go homeWhen I signed my LSA, I was given a booklet about childrens right, not just under NZ law but also under the world childrens rights rulings.
It stressed several times that "It is not ok to bad mouth your spouse in front of the children", and that "the children love both their parents and saying negative things about the other parent is hurtful and confusing for the child." It also goes on to say that the child advocate services would frown on reports of this behaviour.
Just chiming in... My WH got my two older kids cell phones this summer before D-day and I still think it was part of his plan to stay in contact with them as much as he (if you follow my thread, he's a pretty entitled WH).
The only problem we ran into was when he would try to bypass the IM or set up visits with the kids directly, which I had to set limits on .
Right now neither of them can find their phones, so that has made it a moot issue, but I try to stress all the time he can reach them on the land line.
I don't want him accusing me of keeping the kids from him, but they don't want a lot to do with right now.
BF439
BTW yes you guys I know you were all kidding. That's one thing I do have and its a sense of humor.
OH BOY OH BOY...read past my post to Barbiecat. H is at it again.
Barbiecat, I understand where your coming from, and you very well may here things that can be of benefit because of the experience you had. I am not discrediting you for that. But DS10 needs protection. I have encouraged him to talk to his dad or tell him when he is upset or why he does not want to visit or talk and he says NO MOM I CANT. DS10 is a fireball and very big for his size. He is only 10 but he looks me in the eye wears mens 32 pants and 7 1/2 size shoe. But inside he is nervous, has anxiety, and cannot for the life of him tell his dad anything. Yes he loves his dad and I tell him his dad loves him and that this is not a DS10 and daddy thing its a daddy and mommy thing and he did nothing to cause it. But even having to say why its mom's day when his dad says what do you mean moms day you live with her, makes him nervous. Partly because in his gentle soul he is very very upset with his dad but does not want to hurt him in the same breath and he feels responsible for hurting his dad by saying its moms day.
So lets escalate the matters shall we so that we can all see how H is acting and is careless towards my kids.
Today H was sent by the IM's communication by me stating the financial needs and a 3rd copy of the visitation schedule so he does not need to ask my children of days he can visit and stress them out by having to say moms days or dads days. They have expressed they don't want to be in the middle. It very straight to the point and no emotions just facts.
Ok quick break, Am I within reason to set a visitation schedule? I mean we shouldn't be expected to wait around and guess should we? I chose days I knew would be easier geographically for my H to see the kids(still thinking about him). I knew Tuesday's and Wednesdays would be pretty hard for him so i chose Monday and Thursday. And so he would not have to give up his only day off and drive and hour to get here I thought it would be fair to give him rotating Sundays and Saturdays. I wanted to be fair in setting them up.
Okay back to the lovely story so I have been cleaning all day, garage, back yard, closets etc etc. and when I do that I turn on music and its pretty loud so I can hear it while Im in the backyard, it relaxs me and makes chores fun.
So we didn't hear the phone call at 3:52PM to the HOUSE PHONE. Well he then says he f'in genius you know I can't be to the house on certain days to visit how many f'ing years do i have to f'ing tell you this. And I should have a detailed f'ing list of the bills and I don't know who your IM's are and if they are your sister or whatever. blah blah blah.
Okay you see the lack of care for my kids. This was on the home answer machine. Now what if DS10 heard him talking to me that way? Dear God! He could have called my cell phone but NO he says it on the house phone.
So he is pissed that I have scheduled days, and I know they are days that are easier for him, and he is pissed that i have financial needs and he wanted a list.
So Neak Dawhling I am going to be calling you this evening. Need to run some stuff by you.
Had a good day, felt okay now i am feeling anxious again. {{{{sigh}}}}
Please save that recording of your husband's message.
You already know this, but I'm going to remind you. When I was actively wayward, I was truly not in my right mind. My ability to make sound decisions had been competely irradicated. My previously sound judgement was gone. It wasn't just a little less and it didn't just come and go...it was gone. I've kept up with your entire thread. You have some remarkable help here. I just want you to know that the man that is your husband now, is NOT your husband. The man that was your children's father, is NOT the same man now. Please continue to protect yourself and your children by staying in a solid plan B.
Now about this phone thing. I know you are just gathering some feedback, but please remember he hasn't given your son a phone yet. To me it's just WH trying to create drama through DD. I did some of the same wacked out things. If he follows through with the phone, I'm sure your son can help you come up with some boundaries that he creates with you so this is not YOU trying to be controlling. You may even find that your son doesn't even want it on. The one time that the phone would be very useful is when DS is with WH, so that DS can contact YOU and you can contact him. It might be a blessing in disguise during those times.
Please save that recording of your husband's message.
You already know this, but I'm going to remind you. When I was actively wayward, I was truly not in my right mind. My ability to make sound decisions had been competely irradicated. My previously sound judgement was gone. It wasn't just a little less and it didn't just come and go...it was gone. I've kept up with your entire thread. You have some remarkable help here. I just want you to know that the man that is your husband now, is NOT your husband. The man that was your children's father, is NOT the same man now. Please continue to protect yourself and your children by staying in a solid plan B.
Now about this phone thing. I know you are just gathering some feedback, but please remember he hasn't given your son a phone yet. To me it's just WH trying to create drama through DD. I did some of the same wacked out things. If he follows through with the phone, I'm sure your son can help you come up with some boundaries that he creates with you so this is not YOU trying to be controlling. You may even find that your son doesn't even want it on. The one time that the phone would be very useful is when DS is with WH, so that DS can contact YOU and you can contact him. It might be a blessing in disguise during those times.
It so great to hear from you as I go through this as you have been there.
As far as the phone yes I am not going to freak out until it happens and I really like the idea of having DS10 help come up with the boundaries. He to knows his dad is not his dad. I can kinda explain that way, for his protection. We can throw around ideas together he may feel like he is apart of it and I would like the phone on DS10 when he is visiting with WS. I think he would agree to set times and boundaries actually. I think maybe just the last 2 hours of the evening might work okay too.
Yes I am saving the recording but I hate to keep saying this but I live in California and they don't care about much but I am going to save it.
And actually the reminder is good as I swirl and forget. When he does this stuff I just want to say forget it I quit! Its so hard to hold on, truly it is. I hang on and I feel like I have no real guarantees we are getting back together ever.
DD17 said she had a long convo with her dad last night(New Years Eve). He called to talk to them and when DS10 saw she was talking to dad he turned around and left the room he didn't want to talk.
I questioned him and he gets annoyed with me all the time and says mom what do you think? He should be here thats why I'm mad. Anyways I didn't have to monitor last night as DS10 was not willing to talk. DD17 told H that DS10 did not want to talk he wasn't doing well because its a holiday and your not here and she said he replied me neither and she said fix it then and he said the usual you mom has stuff she needs to fix crap. She said they talked for a LONG time but we stopped there.
I cannot understand why I am the one needing fixing. Did you say that to SMB? Did you feel she was the cause of the affair? Did you blame her? Just wondering.
Yep, that was the first 1/4 or so of the message...
FTR, I have advised, and T2L agrees, that the best response is none at all. Pretend it never happened. (Except for saving a record of it in the Notebook of Doom.)
WH does not like PB. The more time that goes on, the more he does not like PB.
Meanwhile, T2L sails on like a queen.
I prefer to call it "my handy-dandy" notebook.
Can I just vent that I HATE the active wayward mindset.
Okay.
Better now.
The recording may not be admissable IN COURT but if you ever have to do a home study, it'll go A LONG WAY in proving which environment is better for the children.
Trust.
We played VD's messages to the person doing the homestudy and they were mentioned in her final writeup (which ended up favoring us).
I cannot understand why I am the one needing fixing. Did you say that to SMB? Did you feel she was the cause of the affair? Did you blame her? Just wondering.
The blame game is standard active wayward babble. Every wayward I have seen on these boards, including myself, have all blamed their spouse. In addition to the blame, we re-write as much history as possible to make ourselves out to be the martyr in the marriage. Pretty sick and twisted are active waywards!
My wife was never the cause of my poor choices, she was only the scapegoat. She prayed my soul out of he11 and back into Gods light.
I pray your H is broken as well and restored to Christ soon.
Remember how God sees you, "He has covered me with clothes of salvation and wrapped me with a coat of goodness, like a bridegroom dressed for his wedding, like a bride in jewels" (Isaiah 61:10)
I cannot understand why I am the one needing fixing. Did you say that to SMB? Did you feel she was the cause of the affair? Did you blame her? Just wondering.
The blame game is standard active wayward babble. Every wayward I have seen on these boards, including myself, have all blamed their spouse. In addition to the blame, we re-write as much history as possible to make ourselves out to be the martyr in the marriage. Pretty sick and twisted are active waywards!
My wife was never the cause of my poor choices, she was only the scapegoat. She prayed my soul out of he11 and back into Gods light.
I pray your H is broken as well and restored to Christ soon.
Remember how God sees you, "He has covered me with clothes of salvation and wrapped me with a coat of goodness, like a bridegroom dressed for his wedding, like a bride in jewels" (Isaiah 61:10)
Thanks for that. Sometimes you really start to question yourself. Maybe I did cause him to do it, but i have past history of the marriage to and I saw how hard I tried to make him happy for over 24 years and how perfect I tried to make everything and i see now how wrong that was and how he can't be happy even if happy bit him in the face. No i was not perfect, but in comparison to some of the marriages I see i was a decent wife. Funny I was remembering him saying only a few years before, and actually he said this on a few occasions, how he showed someone a family picture in his wallet and told them he was very happily married.
I think the he only has 2 chances of happiness at this point, 1 is God bringing him to the very end of himself, delivering him emotionally and humbling him so he can be free and 2 returning to the marriage. Its very sad, I know his end if he does not get it together. His mother, who has done the very same thing numerous times, is a lonely old somewhat bitter woman who is in a dead relationship and has had strained relationships with almost all her kids. Except now of course a renewed and good relationship with my H who hated her only months ago but now loves her since she told H she would support whatever decision he made.
I am truly trying to pray for him. To be honest I can barely do. I am hurting and angry too. I am unsure of how long I can keep fighting for the marriage. I love him and miss him but not that guy who is in his body now. And then now i am at the point where so much more than the affair is at play.
Trying to stay as dark on my side as possible, trying to occupy my days and keep busy but the future is definitely gnawing at me. DS10's future and possible custody issues worry me, if i have to file. At this point he has given us finances for 9 months. If he continues I can stay in this holding pattern and not file anything for DS10 for years. The only reason I would have to file is if he stops paying. {{{{sigh}}}}
Well y'all tomorrow is 7 weeks of Plan B and the 23rd of this months will 9 months from dday. 9 months, i can't believe this nightmare has been going on for 9 months.
I prefer to call it "my handy-dandy" notebook.
Can I just vent that I HATE the active wayward mindset.
Okay.
Better now.
The recording may not be admissible IN COURT but if you ever have to do a home study, it'll go A LONG WAY in proving which environment is better for the children.
Trust.
We played VD's messages to the person doing the homestudy and they were mentioned in her final writeup (which ended up favoring us).
I hate their mindset too, but can i say I hate there bloody mouths and the venom that comes out?!?!
Yeah here in Cali I doubt the recording would be admissible and I am not even sure they would do a homestudy. I just wish so badly we were a fault state or there was something I could do to keep OW away from my son if I get to the place where I have to go to court. How did states become fault states does anyone know that? I mean I can get signatures darn it and get something on a ballot, I mean how do you go about that?
Anyways, that's 2 tries at direct contact so far in 1 week. But Yeah the information he was ranting about was already sent to him on Dec 3rd via email via the IM's. I thought so. Were not going to reply for a week to that nasty little message.
Were not going to reply for a week to that nasty little message.
Or at all.
He can shove it sideways, imo.
and I don't know who your IM's are and if they are your sister or whatever. blah blah blah.
I know it'll make no difference at all but....
If he really wants someone to shout at, give him my number and tell him I'm your IM.
I would be very surprised if he made an international phone call to rant about the sitch
@ Mr T2L
for goddess T2L
and I don't know who your IM's are and if they are your sister or whatever. blah blah blah.
I know it'll make no difference at all but....
If he really wants someone to shout at, give him my number and tell him I'm your IM.
I would be very surprised if he made an international phone call to rant about the sitch
@ Mr T2L
for goddess T2L
Awe my Lildoggie! I should send him to you so you can "ruff ruff" at him. Hee hee hee
but sweetie, I am a godess, I don't 'do' ruff.
WS's growl and bark and snap.
Godess's say "hmm, thats interesting, mmm" while filing their gorgeous finernails and applying the new polish
Lol, actually my nails are ghastly, from milking. Cant wait to have nice hands again.
A couple songs for you from Superchick's new CD. I'm thinking you know who Superchik is???
Superchick's Crawl Superchick's Breathe And a few of their olds ones you may already have heard. I listened to them during tst's A.
Stand in the Rain Beauty from Pain And one from Barlow Girl...
Never Alone (Music ministers to me--I'm a dance worshipper
Godess's say "hmm, thats interesting, mmm" while filing their gorgeous finernails and applying the new polish
Oh man, I've really got to remember this one!!
*Inputs "hmm, thats interesting, mmm" into her brain's debate compartment.*
Godess's say "hmm, thats interesting, mmm" while filing their gorgeous finernails and applying the new polish
Oh man, I've really got to remember this one!!
*Inputs "hmm, thats interesting, mmm" into her brain's debate compartment.*
Okay.
How about...'Mmmhunh. That's iteresting. Now shove it sideways."
Whatddaya think?
Too much of a DJ?
Ah.
I just can't get past him somehow having to shove it.
Sideways.
It's a good thing I run stuff by the other IMs and wait for their wisdom, huh?
Beauty from Pain And one from Barlow Girl...
(Music ministers to me--I'm a dance worshiper
Yes I know the band. I am balling my head off at this song. Its explains exactly how I feel.
Its explains exactly how I feel.
Yeah...
I know...
Just a thought, but I'd kinda like to see what would happen if there was some consequences to his refusing to communicate with the IMs. Like, missing the only visitation days for the week because of a last-minute change in plans...
Okay.
How about...'Mmmhunh. That's iteresting. Now shove it sideways."
Depends on where.
Um, I am saying this here instead of on DD's thread so as to not confuse the issue over there...
BA?!?!? Boy I never woulda guessed.
And just cus I just noticed these lil dudes...
:MerryChristmas: :MerryChristmas: :MerryChristmas:
:wavingsanta: :wavingsanta: :wavingsanta:
Okay.
How about...'Mmmhunh. That's iteresting. Now shove it sideways."
Depends on where.
Well we can safely say sideways in his ears. Apparently there is no blockages in between both of his W-ears. Nutting but air so yeah side ways will work there.
Nutting but air so yeah side ways will work there.
Nuttin' but a HUGE sucking sound as everything that goes in, gets sucked into a wormhole and spewed into another galaxy.
(see that, Char....snarkasam AND the ablity to wrap a ST analogy into the convo!...Texans are GOOD!)
My wife was never the cause of my poor choices, she was only the scapegoat.
That was beautifully put, tst.
T2L, print this out or tattoo it on your arm or something and refer back to it whenever you find yourself wondering what you did wrong or why you weren't good enough or ANY of that self-doubtful nonsense.
Just a thought, but I'd kinda like to see what would happen if there was some consequences to his refusing to communicate with the IMs. Like, missing the only visitation days for the week because of a last-minute change in plans...
You know, I've been thinking this too. Thanks for suggesting it, Jayne. I agree. He needs to suffer consequences if he refuses to agree to and adhere to your visitation. That will teach him soon enough that you mean business.
I agree..
i tell my mama this all the time.
i tell her stop blaming yourself.
this is NOT your fault.
dads just an idiot.
she asks me sometimes?? ya know didnt you think me and your dad were happy and i tell her oh lord yes of course mama..
i remind her of this all the time too.
and ill say it again...
MOM
1. you did his laundry
2.you folded his chonies (underwear and clothes) and put them away.
3. you packed his lunch for him every night(like a little kid going to school)
4. wrote him cute little notes in his lunch box.
5. made sure the house was spotless everyday he came home.
6. made him a great!!!! dinner every night he came home..
so he was pretty much babied..
he was spolied and my mom didnt deserve this AT ALL...
I KNOW mom was a good wife.
Be sure let dad know when you have one of his favorites for dinner. You can just mention that you are lazy and STUFFED from the __________.
My wife was never the cause of my poor choices, she was only the scapegoat.
That was beautifully put, tst.
T2L, print this out or tattoo it on your arm or something and refer back to it whenever you find yourself wondering what you did wrong or why you weren't good enough or ANY of that self-doubtful nonsense.
Well Hello Lil turtle,
Welcome back. Hope you had lovely travels over Christmas!
I guess tattoo would help me the best. It is hard to not go back and think what could have you done and think what the heck are you doing now.
But quiet dark day here. H has not called or contacted the kids all day and it's 9PM here already. We didn't think he would as they rejected his visit yesterday. DS10 was mad that his dad wasn't around for New Years Eve and DD17 is getting tired of scheduling times just to see her dad who she said should be here and she could see all the time. I figured he'd be pissed off at them and not call them. He does it a lot. And yup putting it in the journal.
Tomorrow is 7 weeks in Plan B. I feel good that H has not had any communication or responses from me during the entire PB.
I will be turning 39 in 2 weeks and 3 days. DD17 wants to plan a big party with all my church friends but I am taking 2 weeks off from church. I have a tendency to drop off the face of the planet when I am feeling hurt or I struggle so I kinda been in hiding. I just need to "work it out" for a few weeks.
I am not upset with anyone over the decision, but I have to say my faith, for the 1st time in 15 years, has been questioned. I love God but the great thing is when I let God know how I feel I don't sugar coat it. No point as He can see the heart of man.
So I just tell Him, Abba I'm a bit upset right now and I am struggling. I really feel like Jacob who wrestled with God. Anyways, not feeling so social and birthday partyish. DD17 really wants to plan it. Funny don't want to have my own B-day party. I have always loved, loved, loved my B-day in the most girlish way LOL. My H used to think I was a dork(in a nice way) because I would celebrate me the whole day. I know goofey.
Off to bed, I'm pooped couldn't sleep last night.....Yes I was thinking to much. Think I might go back over to the magical health food store and try melatonin. I hear its great for helping you sleep. I have heard that If you take too much it can make you groggy. I went over there the other day and bought some of that rescue remedy y'all recommended.
G'night y'all
I have been thinking.
Thats what all the smoke was
One of the things I have been wondering but wasnt sure about posting is, because you have already done a sort of PB on him, is his current reaction/response because he thinks its just like that and if he waits long enuff you will go back to PA.
Thoughts from anyone else???
I have been thinking.
Thats what all the smoke was
One of the things I have been wondering but wasnt sure about posting is, because you have already done a sort of PB on him, is his current reaction/response because he thinks its just like that and if he waits long enuff you will go back to PA.
Thoughts from anyone else???
I read Love Must be tough and In June gave him the letter it has in book and basically only spoke to him via text about finances which was only maybe 1-2 month.
He was living in his car I believe in July and that's when I set up a schedule for him to come to the house 3 times a week and visit the kids but I did not speak with him while he was here and made my self unavailable, so It was kinda a PB but only to 80% as we would text if necessary and I would defend myself from his verbal bashing emails. So kinda a PB if that makes sense.
Good point tho maybe he thinks it'll all run back to the PA, hmm. Any thoughts?
Hmmm makes sense to me.
So I can see that it might take a bit longer, because he figures you'll cave eventually... he may think that with there being one tactic, then another, then another, that may be why he thinks this is just another game. He'll eventually see that it isn't, that this is for real.
Which reminds me, are you making changes in yourself that you want to make? Changes you want to make for yourself... and also possibly changes that he would've liked? For example, (I hope it's ok that I tell this?) Lil said Flick used to complain that she wasn't "friendly". Yeah I know...
but that was one of his complaints. So, for herself and also as part of working to eliminate LBs, she went out and made friends, got involved in motorcycles etc., which increased her happiness and also made Flick desire her more.
You're dark now of course, but you could still be working on becoming that hot attractive woman you wanna be.
I gotta admit, I feel a bit silly telling you that, cus you ALREADY ARE an awesome hot attractive woman! But do you have plans, things you always wanted to do? Are you keeping socially active with friends? If he finds out anything about you, you want it to be that you are having a great life without him, that you are desirable and not just sitting around waiting for him; and that these changes are for real, not just a ploy to get him back.
Sorry, I think I rambled. I hope I made sense. You are already awesome so I feel silly suggesting you improve! I hope you KWIM.
For example, (I hope it's ok that I tell this?) Lil said Flick used to complain that she wasn't "friendly".
No worries.
And you know what is funny now??? He complains because a) I have friends and he doesnt really (locally) in fact he told someone he is treated a bit like a leaper, and B) that I have always had more friends than him.
Just another example of untrue fogbabble that is revealed when exposed to the light
Nuttin' but a HUGE sucking sound as everything that goes in, gets sucked into a wormhole and spewed into another galaxy.
(see that, Char....snarkasam AND the ablity to wrap a ST analogy into the convo!...Texans are GOOD!)
Heck yeah we are!!
Charlotte
Well one of his complaints was I didn't listen so I worked really hard and 180'd as best I could during PA. He never complained about SF as I never denied but i never initiated so that's why I pursued him during PA and did the whole lap dance thing.
He never really complained too much to me. He said I was naive on occasions if I didn't agree.
He was talking to the secretary at the corporate office 2 weeks after dday(she told me the convo) he complained that I was perfect and beautiful and everyone loves me and she looked at him kinda shocked and said well okay Mr. T2L what is the problem and he says in complete exasperation IDK!
What do you do in that case? I did work overtime to make him happy and do everything absolutely everything so he was comfortable and happy. Lot a good that did eh?
Jayneypooh!
Hmm trying to think what else he could have complained about....I'll have to think.
I think he knows that T2L is a people pleaser and I like when everyone is happy even if its at the cost of my happiness but I felt happy when everyone was happy. So in a weird way PB is good in showing him that I am stronger than he thinks and I am not going to people please. I have always told him how much I loved him and that I couldn't live with out him so PB is showing him that I can get along with out him. Does that count even tho he didnt complain about it?
Um, he hated my healthy ways-eating good, taking vitamins, exercising and avoiding sugar.
He did not love going to church as much as I did and wanted to take more breaks, so DD17 did tell him that I have taken a few weeks off. My Pastor actually thought the leak to him might be good since he had previously said that.
Can't really think of much else.
[quote=Dealan-de]
(see that, Char....snarkasam AND the ablity to wrap a ST analogy into the convo!...Texans are GOOD!)
Can someone please translate what the heck that means? LOL
THINGS LEARNED LIVING IN TEXAS
~ A possum is a flat animal that sleeps in the middle of the road.
~ There are 5,000 types of snakes and 4,998 of them live in Texas
~ There are 10,000 types of spiders. All 10,000 of them live in Texas .
~ If it grows, it'll stick ya. If it crawls, it'll bite cha.
~ 'Jaw-P?' means, 'Did y'all go to the bathroom?
~ There is no such thing as 'lunch.' There is only dinner and then there is supper.
~ Iced tea is appropriate for all meals, and you start drinking it when you're two. We do like a little tea with our sugar.
~ "Backwards and forwards" means "I know everything about you."
~ The word 'jeet' is actually a phrase meaning, 'Did you eat?'
~ You don't have to wear a watch, because it doesn't matter what time it is. You work until you're done or it's too dark to see.
~ You measure distance in minutes.
~ You switch from heat to A/C in the same day.
~ You only own five spices: salt, pepper, Texas Pete, Tabasco and Ketchup.
~ The local papers cover national and international news on one page, but require 6 pages for local gossip and high school football.
~ You know all four seasons: Almost summer, summer, still summer, and Christmas.
~ Fried catfish is the other white meat.
Hey T2L, well I have been up really late yet again tonight. I had an off day today. Worried about going back to work and dealing with all of this. Husband is in Las Vegas with the OW. really sucks.
Everything still quiet at your house. Thinking of you. Could use some of your strength this week.
Keep praying for each other. Stay strong
THINGS LEARNED LIVING IN TEXAS
~ 'Jaw-P?' means, 'Did y'all go to the bathroom?
~ There is no such thing as 'lunch.' There is only dinner and then there is supper.
~ Iced tea is appropriate for all meals, and you start drinking it when you're two. We do like a little tea with our sugar.
~ "Backwards and forwards" means "I know everything about you."
~ The word 'jeet' is actually a phrase meaning, 'Did you eat?'
~ You don't have to wear a watch, because it doesn't matter what time it is. You work until you're done or it's too dark to see.
~ You measure distance in minutes.
~ You switch from heat to A/C in the same day.
~ You only own five spices: salt, pepper, Texas Pete, Tabasco and Ketchup.
~ The local papers cover national and international news on one page, but require 6 pages for local gossip and high school football.
~ Fried catfish is the other white meat.
Haha, I learned this growing up in TN! Must be a Southern thang
VERVE!!!!!!!!!!! Are you a VOL?????? ME TOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, bawn in nawth Jawja, gruhp in east Tinuhsee. Which state are you from: East, Middle, or West Tn?
With all these Texans, I was starting to think they were the only southerners around. I was reading that list and thinkin, "That ain't just Texans!" Well except the bit about everything that grows'll stick ya and everything that crawls'll bite ya.
I thought Oz cornered the market on poisonous spiders and snakes.
Iced tea is appropriate for all meals, and you start drinking it when you're two. We do like a little tea with our sugar.
I *SWEAR* that's how you tell the difference between Yankees and Southerners. Go through any drive-through and when they ask what you want to drink, just say "tea". If you get iced tea that had the sugar added whilst still hot so as to get it supersaturated, you are south of the Mason-Dixon line. Seriously, though, drive north from North carolina, and go through the first fast-food restaurant after crossing the M-D line, and ask for "tea". You will get iced tea that has nary a cube of sugar.
Keep going north. When you cross over into Canada, if you ask for "tea" you will get a cup of hot tea. :MrEEk: If you ask for "ice tea" you will get a powdered Lipton drink mix that will have lemon and sugar flavoring.
Re: Tea, american.
Eww.
I have Dilmah Ceylon tea. Milk, no sugar. Hot.
Cold. Eww.
Sugar. Eww.
Lemon. Eww.
I think he knows that T2L is a people pleaser and I like when everyone is happy even if its at the cost of my happiness but I felt happy when everyone was happy. So in a weird way PB is good in showing him that I am stronger than he thinks and I am not going to people please. I have always told him how much I loved him and that I couldn't live with out him so PB is showing him that I can get along with out him. Does that count even tho he didnt complain about it?
That absolutely counts!!! He will see soon enough that these changes are for real, you really are strong, you aren't gonna cave just cus he complains or disapproves or gets angry.
I don't suggest you get fat and frumpy, stop going to church, eat cake and ice cream every night, and live in a pigsty just because he "complained" that you were perfect.
You are awesome, lady. If he's lucky he'll smarten up. You'll be ok either way.
Re: Tea, american.
Eww.
I have Dilmah Ceylon tea. Milk, no sugar. Hot.
Cold. Eww.
Sugar. Eww.
Lemon. Eww.
I had a Yankee friend who never liked ice tea, only hot tea... until she came down south and tasted REAL tea. The reason ice tea doesn't taste good is cus Y'ALL DON'T PUT ENOUGH SUGAR IN IT!!!!!
I remember as a kid... tea was always the drink served with supper. In tall glasses, with teaspoons. You can barely find teaspoons anymore. I don't mean coffee spoons, those spoons that fit in a coffee cup and are smaller than soup spoons. I mean, long-handled spoons that will reach to the bottom of a long tall glass, so you can stir up all the sugar that sedimented out, between each sip.
VERVE!!!!!!!!!!! Are you a VOL?????? ME TOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, bawn in nawth Jawja, gruhp in east Tinuhsee. Which state are you from: East, Middle, or West Tn?
I'm an East Tennessean baby!!!! I BLEED orange (
and if I didn't my family would make sure that I did...bleed that is haha!). I absolutely love and I'm proud of (and to be from) my southern family. We don't have the same views on things, but I was raised well...lemme tell ya!
I thought Oz cornered the market on poisonous spiders and snakes.
OMG, I nearly had tea (how appropriate) come out of my nose when I read this! Too funny and oh-so-true!
As for the tea thing...you gotta have sugar with the tea. I also like a little lemon, but lots and lots of sugar. No hot tea or unsweetened for me. I also like Sun tea...yum. There's nothing like a glass of iced tea dripping condensation on a sultry summer day in the south. Say that last part three times real fast!
Sorry, but I just gotta
My nana always put sugar in my tea when I was little and stayed with her. I used to wait until she was watching telly and then tip it down the sink.
Ick, ick, ick
You can barely find teaspoons anymore. I don't mean coffee spoons, those spoons that fit in a coffee cup and are smaller than soup spoons. I mean, long-handled spoons that will reach to the bottom of a long tall glass, so you can stir up all the sugar that sedimented out, between each sip.
OMG, I know! I can't find those anywhere...well other than my great aunt's and my Nanny's (grandmother's) kitchen. We also used those to eat cornbread and milk. Have you had that? Get an ice cold glass of milk and crumble cornbread in it...yum! You could scoop it out with a teaspoon and it was all soggy and full of milky goodness. Man, I need to make that for my kiddos. It just reminds me of sitting on the porch with my grandmother and helping her shell green beans. Craziness...
I am a displaced East Coast girl that landed in Texas 2.5 years ago. I am an outcast because I do not drink cold or hot Tea. Give me coffee.
If you are wondering why so many Texans are on this board is that 55% of marriages in Texas end in Divorce. If I knew that I never would have moved here (can't blame the state only the man).
I had to ask T2L what sun tea was.
She told me
THAT is digusting!
I am bringing my own tea bags over with me.
You are not allowed to touch it. Any of you.
I would slip some good ole sugary tea in your cup when you weren't looking then point and laugh when you spit it out. Hahah
I am a displaced East Coast girl that landed in Texas 2.5 years ago. I am an outcast because I do not drink cold or hot Tea. Give me coffee.
Uh oh! I bet it was major culture shock huh?
Oh yes!!! Did y'all have a little iron thing to bake cornbread so it looks like little corncobs?
Lil, this tea in which you didn't like sugar... was it perchance *hot*???
And if you ain't never been outside in weather so hot that your bike tire will explode on the asphalt, then you don't appreciate the necessity of an ICE COLD DRINK with enough caffeine and sugar to keep body and soul together.
Seriously, one time in NC I was riding in a 100-mile bike ride, it just happened to be in the middle of a heat wave. A heat wave. In NC, in July... as if NC in July wasn't hot enough on its own. A whole bunch of folks had tires blow out. We finally figured out, it was the heat.
I'm a wuss now. When we're in the South in summer, my H is more able to handle the heat than me. I just don't get it. He also likes it colder than me in the winter.
But I've converted him, he now likes collard greens, fried okra, sweet potato casserole, .....
I had to ask T2L what sun tea was.
She told me
THAT is digusting!
Yep, that's what the Canucks said when I told them about it. Well, come to think of it, it was actually someone from Australia who was living in Canada who was most disgusted! But it's great, I don't understand what's disgusting about it!
If you are wondering why so many Texans are on this board is that 55% of marriages in Texas end in Divorce. If I knew that I never would have moved here (can't blame the state only the man).
... and hence the song, "All My Exes Live in Texas."
I would slip some good ole sugary tea in your cup when you weren't looking then point and laugh when you spit it out. Hahah
need a icon doing the fingers
Ugh, well I may be southern, but I've never learned to like collard greens, okra, sweet potatoes, or black eyed peas. Bleh.
No we didn't have the iron thing, but my grandmother always made it in a cast iron skillet (which makes it taste better IMO).
As for the heat...well we lived in eastern TN, and, while it was as hot as a June bride bareback on a hot stove (always wanted an excuse to use that saying), the humidity wasn't too terrible. The mountains really helped out. Where i live now is TECHNICALLY in the south, I guess, but it's on the west side of the state where it's flat and all corn fields, and the humidity is terrible! I was pregnant when we first moved here and I barely went outside all summer...ugh.
Oh! I do remember playing in the tar on the roads during the summer as a kid. It would get so hot and the tar would get gooey and we would use sticks to write in it and stuff. Good times.
Gotta go to bed y'all but if ya get a chance pop over to my friends thread Hope3343. Shes needs some encouragement, shes gots some exposing to do.
Can she Plan A if she exposes and H gets fired? Hope and her H work at the same company and he is having the A right in front of her with the secretary.
I think she would like to do a short Plan A but can she? Would she be able to if H blames her? Guess it doesn't matter either way as exposure needs to happen just wondering.
Also not sure someone may have already but if not can someone bop over there and give her some info on how to expose at work place or the letter.
OMG we forgot to eat black eyed peas on New Years Day!!!
I'll pop in and say hi, I'm not sure what to recommend... I think ppl will say to expose no matter what.
Nite nite!
Yeah we didn't do black eyed peas either, thank goodness! :crosseyedcrazy:
G'night T2L!
Dear Trying,
This has nothing to do with anything that you are all talking about. In fact, as I'm British, I find it hard to follow what you've all been talking about!
It's just that I was browsing the MB photo album because it was recently bumped, and I had to check several times to make sure that the woman (and children) pictured there had the same screen name as you. I could not believe my eyes.
You are absolutely gorgeous and your WH must be clinically insane to be continuing his treatment of you. I would have him thoroughly examined before taking him back, if I were you, by a doctor or a vet. Whatever seems more appropriate.
I've been slowly reading through your thread and I am full of admiration for you. Your H really needs to fight his way back home soon before you give up, because once you're on the market again you will be instantly snapped up by someone who will never let you go.
Hugs to you.
It's my 1st Sunday morning away from church. I am feeling okay. Kids still sleeping and its already 10AM. I'm listening to DS10 behind me snoring as he is still sleeping in my bed. Pep gave me a few therapy resources outside of my HMO so I am going to check them out for DS10. I really want someone who will be able to provide documentation for court if needed. My HMO will not.
Anyways, Six more days and I'm at 2 months in Plan B. I have to say that I am almost leaning more so to give up on H and recovery. It's been 9 months since d-day and I have less hope than ever now that he is going to be able to make it out of this mess.
I always thought he was a strongman, if you saw him you would know what i mean, and that he could fight his way out of anything but now I am not sure he can do it. I thought the Thanksgiving/Christmas/19 year anniversary/New Years Eve season would get to him and break him a little but I see nothing of that as you all know by the previous arguments and comments he has had and made to DD17 last month. Y'all have seen over that whole season, No sound of humbling, just entitlement, anger, and blame towards me anyway possible 9 months later. It seems like so many recoveries did not take quite this long. So many of you recovered so quickly.
I mean I know that recovery is possible for some, but then there are many that don't make it out of the battle. I'm starting to think that's gonna be us. I try and hold on not just for myself but for him too. I feel so bad that his life is going to end just like his mother, depressed, sad, bitter,lonely, still justifying and lying and she's over 60, strained relationship with her children. What a horrible future for him.
How do you ever know when you just can't do it anymore? Sad thing is, which I hope is normal, even if someday I move forward find someone and even marry I will always love my H. Even he knows this.
The goal I had set and that I am trying to make it to is at least 1 year of d-day, April 23rd. I would like to be at least 1 year removed from discovery so I can see a little more clearly and know i gave it a full year and tried if any decisions need to be made.
Oh and another bad, that message on the answering machine that I saved of H cussing me out. I left it on the answering machine as I may need it and planned on transferring it. I have a hand recorder and I just can't find the darn thing. I was going to transfer it from the answering machine to the hand recorder.
DD17's boyfriend had called the other day and left a message and DD17 went to listen to it with DS10. They heard H's nasty message. I was napping and didn't know about it until later as DS10 said he didn't want to see his dad and told me why. DD17 said she fast forwarded it quickly so DS10 only heard a tiny part of it. But they both were shocked. I am going to look one more place, i think my hand recorder may be in my car so hopefully that will be off there today.
DS10 is mad, he said dad is being nice to my face and talking to my mom like that. I don't want to talk to him for a while I really want to punch him in the face. DD17 told him nice message to my mom dad as she was irritated too and he said well that wasn't to you, just ignore it, it was the
truth and you and your brother don't see it yet. I don't know what else they said as I left the room. Wish someone would clue me in on that truth he's talking about, I know I know, FOG. Today is visitation day and both kids don't want to see him. I'm sure he will be mad. DD17 will tell him I don't want to visit but DS10 will not tell dad as he is too nervous too. Can DD17 speak for her brother too or does this need to go through the IM's.
Anyways gonna do some errands today and stay busy.
Dear Trying,
This has nothing to do with anything that you are all talking about. In fact, as I'm British, I find it hard to follow what you've all been talking about!
It's just that I was browsing the MB photo album because it was recently bumped, and I had to check several times to make sure that the woman (and children) pictured there had the same screen name as you. I could not believe my eyes.
You are absolutely gorgeous and your WH must be clinically insane to be continuing his treatment of you. I would have him thoroughly examined before taking him back, if I were you, by a doctor or a vet. Whatever seems more appropriate.
I've been slowly reading through your thread and I am full of admiration for you. Your H really needs to fight his way back home soon before you give up, because once you're on the market again you will be instantly snapped up by someone who will never let you go.
Hugs to you.
Awe thanks SugarCane, that is very sweet of you. Well as you can clearly see looks have nothing to do with this. In fact the OW is physically not that great. She is 5 ft tall, double D tatas and from what the secretary at the office previously confided in me is that her belly sticks out as far as the tatas. So looks have nothing to do with it.
Even in character she cannot come near me. She was been divorced already and during the A she was engaged. I teach my kids to be a person of character, to keep your word, take the high road and all the things I feel are important in life. This woman, from what i have been told by a male friend who is still in contact with H, is that she is trouble and is a bar wh0re. I was told this about a month after d-day.
Sometimes I wonder if I was just so boring and she was exciting and that's why he did this. But really he was the one who never really wanted to do a whole lot, funny now how he does things and says I'm the one who didn't want to do things. I always had a good time and was generally happy. That was one of his comments to DD17. Your mom is just tries to hard and she is just Ms. Happy go lucky and Ms. Positive and I'm just not that way, duh ya think? Anyways the only reason we ever traveled or had vacation was because of me so I have to think I wasn't that boring.
I don't know, sometimes I think everyone even great people like all of us can justify and lie to ourselves and maybe I just can't see everything I did. IDK. I want to be truthful to myself and not blind to myself if that makes sense.
Anyways thanks for the very kind words. I wish H could see me in any positive light at this point, but fog blinds.
Dear Trying,
As you can see, I posted just before your recent, very hurt post, and I'm sorry for what you are feeling now. I was going along with the lighter mood I had just read on the thread but I can see that things are difficult for you today. However, I cannot let this pass:
In fact the OW is physically not that great. She is 5 ft tall, double D tatas and from what the secretary at the office previously confided in me is that her belly sticks out as far as the tatas. So looks have nothing to do with it.
I am 5'3 if I stretch, and an E cup, and I have a nice, hour-glass figure. I found out, when I went for a proper fitting a few years ago, just how badly most women misjudge the size of their (and other women's) breasts.
She's probably about an H, if they really look big from a distance.
More hugs to you!
T2L, I hear that your love for your H is in danger. One of the purposes of PB is to preserve that love - I just thought of the analogy of putting it on ice - in case he ever smartens up and wants to come back.
For that to happen, he needs to be as far out of your mind as possible. That's why going dark is so important.
I wish you could figure out a way to have him out of sight AND out of mind. I know with children it's harder, but this is real important.
What I wish would happen is, you just get so involved in your life today, that you hardly think of WH at all.
Then, if he comes back, he hasn't overdrawn on his LB$ too much.
If he doesn't, well you aren't thinking about him anyway so it won't affect your daily life so much. Not as much as if you've been dwelling on him a lot.
I'm tempted to tell you, just forget him and move on - at least emotionally if not legally. He's being a you-know-what and doesn't deserve you. But also, I think by emotionally moving on instead of waiting for him to come back, you'll come closer to the goals I mention above.
Then, if he decides to come back, you will have a choice of whether or not to take him back. And if you have made a good life for yourself, you can base your decision on whether or not he will bring something good to your already good life - not on whether or not you *need* him in your life.
T2L, I hear that your love for your H is in danger. One of the purposes of PB is to preserve that love - I just thought of the analogy of putting it on ice - in case he ever smartens up and wants to come back.
For that to happen, he needs to be as far out of your mind as possible. That's why going dark is so important.
I wish you could figure out a way to have him out of sight AND out of mind. I know with children it's harder, but this is real important.
What I wish would happen is, you just get so involved in your life today, that you hardly think of WH at all.
Then, if he comes back, he hasn't overdrawn on his LB$ too much.
If he doesn't, well you aren't thinking about him anyway so it won't affect your daily life so much. Not as much as if you've been dwelling on him a lot.
I'm tempted to tell you, just forget him and move on - at least emotionally if not legally. He's being a you-know-what and doesn't deserve you. But also, I think by emotionally moving on instead of waiting for him to come back, you'll come closer to the goals I mention above.
Then, if he decides to come back, you will have a choice of whether or not to take him back. And if you have made a good life for yourself, you can base your decision on whether or not he will bring something good to your already good life - not on whether or not you *need* him in your life.
I know what you are saying and it really do need to push this bonehead out of my head. That is exactly what I need to do. I have a tendency to analyze, rehash, rewind and replay, over and over and over. I hate this about myself. I do it even when i am trying to distract myself and keep busy, its like my mind just runs and runs over the whole thing and everything said and when they sleep at night and if they are happy and everything imaginable under the sun! Why is my brain like this!
I understand what you are saying and I think I gotta fight this tooth and nail to push this dude out of my head all together. I think its critical to my very existence if that makes sense. I think I am going to have to be nasty with my own self and not give myself room in my mind until all this thinking stops. I know the bible says to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I already know this but I think I am going to have find every ounce of strength in me and control the thoughts just like the bible says. I know your supposed to keep busy and do things you enjoy but I still think even during those times, but I know I can stop the thoughts. I did it much better in Plan A. Even then you have thoughts that you have to control to even be able to do the plan A, i guess I just let my thoughts run during this PB.
Okay, today I am going to put post its in all areas I am usually in, in the house. I am going to print up stuff to put in my bathroom and at my computer desk. I am going to purpose to turn all my thoughts. You guys can remind me too. H has control of my life through my thoughts and I have got to stop this. Yes I am sad, and I'm not sure there's too much I can do about that, but I am going to get him out of my head, and yes if I don't I am going to hate him. Its definitely very hard with the kids but if there is a will there is a way and i gotta find that balance.
Okay I am going to do this. Gonna push H out of my head to protect both of us-no all of us.
Lame question. I took down all the pictures of H in the home in July, he hated that, but left pictures of him in the kids rooms. I bought 4 collage picture frames and have been developing lots of old 35mm film to get ready for DD17's graduation video. Well DD17 and I want to work on the collage frames together, do I have to put pictures of H in them? I just don't even want to see his face right now. Is that wrong or weird? We literally have NO pictures up in the house it looks weird.
I would forget the pictures for now. Postpone framing them instead take some large color shots of flowers or get some temporary posters to brighten up the home.
Or, as an alternative, make a large poster size picture of your husband and mount it on corkboard in the garage to throw darts at.
Make another to take to a shooting range and hang as a target.
T2L, we are on the same page today. Obsessing about H and letting them have control of our thoughts. I hate it.
We are better than this. I am actually sitting here in my pajamas at 2:42 after another bad night of sleeping. Instead of thoughts of sugar plums in my head during the holiday they were replaced by the demons of my H and the OW. WTH.
I am going to get dressed and get out. My D goes back to school tomorrow and I am going to drag her with me. H is no longer here but he is still the biggest elephant in the room.
Get out out out.
take care friend
I know what you are saying and it really do need to push this bonehead out of my head. That is exactly what I need to do. I have a tendency to analyze, rehash, rewind and replay, over and over and over. I hate this about myself. I do it even when i am trying to distract myself and keep busy, its like my mind just runs and runs over the whole thing and everything said and when they sleep at night and if they are happy and everything imaginable under the sun! Why is my brain like this!
Oh, honey, I understand this completely! I do this about so many things in my life. I have no advice for you really, except when this starts, do something with the kiddos, watch a comedy movie, try to work a crossword puzzle, or try those hidden object games (they were a life saver for me!). Something that will get your mind off of it for that moment. I read something that MelodyLane (I think it was her) wrote awhile back and I tried it in everyday life. She said that she would put a rubberband around her wrist and snap it when she had bad thoughts. It would make her realize what she was thinking about so she could deliberately change her thoughts. Would that help you?
Hi T2L, I am so thankful that you took the time to post on my thread when you have been going through such a hard time yourself. I have been unable to respond to your post because it hit really close to where I needed to hear it, if that makes sense.
You are exactly right that you are still living your daily life for your husband, but he's not in your daily life - his choice. You really do need to move forward and find the sexy salsa dancer from plan A. Your kids need the vivacious, funny, confident mama back and you can do it! You do not need your husband to be who you are. You do not need ministry at the front of the church either. God will work with you anywhere if you let him. Maybe it is your time to shine somewhere else - like MB!
I just put up a new post on my thread and will include some advice here too from a book I am reading for you:-
“Commit the situation to God. All that is required is that you say to God, ‘Lord, I’m in a real mess. I commit this whole situation to you. I place it in your hands and I ask you to sort it out and show me what to do. I can’t see any solution but I trust you with my life from this moment on. Whatever you tell me to do I will do. Please help me to maintain this attitude of trust and obedience. Amen.’
You may not be aware of a fanfare of trumpets after praying this sort of prayer but something very significant will have happened. God will have taken over and in time you will become aware of a kind of peace known only to those who have relinquished the struggle to run their own lives. You will know that the ship is not rudderless because God is at the helm and he knows the way. As time passes the way ahead will become clear and you will realize that he is interested in more than just resolving a thorny question. He is interested in renewing every part of your life."
I hope this speaks to you T2L I do have more on my thread if you are interested.
Your WH has a free will and he is exercising it now. Just let go and focus on you - you are an amazing woman and you deserve so much happiness and love and laughter in life and it is for YOU to live and experience NOW. You don't ever need a man to fulfil that need for you. It's a choice each day to be happy and count your blessings.
Here's some other ideas, for filling your mind with thoughts other than, um... whatever it was you weren't sposed to think of. I forgot.
- Learn to knit or crochet if you don't already know. Pick a really difficult pattern for an afghan, one where you have to count stitches. Have it sitting around on hand for spare moments when your mind starts to wander.
- Memorize the book of Proverbs.
- Take a photography course, to fill those spots on your walls. Or an art course. Or just go buy some Ansel Adams or Georgia O'Keefe or Thomas Kinkade.
- Buy some crossword puzzle or Sudoku books and have one in every room of the house plus your purse.
- Read a good mystery. Do NOT read a romance.
- Learn Morse code. Translate above-mentioned mystery into Morse code.
- Translate the book of Proverbs into Morse code.
- Learn Braille. Do the same as for Morse code.
Here's some other ideas, for filling your mind with thoughts other than, um... whatever it was you weren't sposed to think of. I forgot.
- Learn to knit or crochet if you don't already know. Pick a really difficult pattern for an afghan, one where you have to count stitches. Have it sitting around on hand for spare moments when your mind starts to wander.
- Memorize the book of Proverbs.
- Take a photography course, to fill those spots on your walls. Or an art course. Or just go buy some Ansel Adams or Georgia O'Keefe or Thomas Kinkade.
- Buy some crossword puzzle or Sudoku books and have one in every room of the house plus your purse.
- Read a good mystery. Do NOT read a romance.
- Learn Morse code. Translate above-mentioned mystery into Morse code.
- Translate the book of Proverbs into Morse code.
- Learn Braille. Do the same as for Morse code.
OMG that was a hoot!
"I know what you are saying and it really do need to push this bonehead out of my head. That is exactly what I need to do. I have a tendency to analyze, rehash, rewind and replay, over and over and over. I hate this about myself. I do it even when i am trying to distract myself and keep busy, its like my mind just runs and runs over the whole thing and everything said and when they sleep at night and if they are happy and everything imaginable under the sun! Why is my brain like this!"
BF's thoughts:
[color:#6666CC]Part of this is a depressive reaction to the trauma and there may be some anxiety here, too. I know you are hesitant to try AD's, but the longer a brain tries to cope in a depressive state, the more entrenched the depressive thinking becomes. Anxiety is often missed and can also be treated with AD's -- not just benzodiazipines. Think of anti-depressants more like cold medicine. You take them for a short period of time to get your brain back to a level of functioning it had before. You have been hurt; your whole way at looking at the world has been jarred and it makes sense that your brain is trying to make sense of the world again. There is no long-term harm from short-term use of the Right AD. I say this as a first time consumer (due to the affair) and a counselor. Something for you to consider to help with the intrusive thoughts...[/color]
"Lame question. I took down all the pictures of H in the home in July, he hated that, but left pictures of him in the kids rooms. I bought 4 collage picture frames and have been developing lots of old 35mm film to get ready for DD17's graduation video. Well DD17 and I want to work on the collage frames together, do I have to put pictures of H in them? I just don't even want to see his face right now. Is that wrong or weird? We literally have NO pictures up in the house it looks weird."
Unless DD17 is graduating mid-year, please put off the frame project for awhile! If seeing his picture is a trigger for you, put them all away -- set a timeline to reconsider in February. Put up artwork and pictures that your kids have made then and now. Decorate your walls with reminders of the blessings you do have, and give yourself permission to wait on the collages. (I even have one room decorated in E's by DD4 and I just don't have the heart to Magic eraser all her beautiful, 4-year old E's -- I know WH would have insisted they get cleaned off the wall, but I kind of like them!)
If you have to get some of it done now, ask DD17 to pull the pictures together that she would like in the collage and exclude (for now) the ones with your WH and start working on them without his photos. You can always add later if you are up for it!
Take care of yourself!!!
BF439
Trying:
I'm just like you, too. Analytical with an excellent memory. So I rewind and rewind events over and over again. And I repeat conversations over and over again to friends and family. I even write things out and hide notes in various spots.
And I'm way too obsessive thinking of WH. But we've been together 30 years and it's hard not to think of what turned him from H to WH.
I've been at this for a while, too...one year since D-day and several false recoveries. During the recoveries, I listened as he talked about OW -- which has really messed with my head. (I know -- I should have made that a boundary. But I wanted to be there for him -- conversation wise.)
I also get obsessive thinking of OW and what a piece of work she is. The fact that she knew H was married and has continued at him for over a year!! And she's 10 years younger. I can't make myself younger. And she has kids. What kind of mother is that?
When doing the "Pro" "Con" comparison, he said the package (kids, house, dog, lifestyle) went in favor of me. But she -- she made the difference. So my only "crime" is not being her. Hope that is just wayward talk.
I know, I know. Stop it. Get thinking about something else. I'm in Plan B and need to start acting like it. But our last conversation is still so fresh in my mind, and the stuff he said this time really has me wondering if I can ever get over his words.
As for keeping busy -- yesterday I scrubbed the grout on the kitchen floor and today I did yard work. But I couldn't stop thinking....
I read something that MelodyLane (I think it was her) wrote awhile back and I tried it in everyday life. She said that she would put a rubberband around her wrist and snap it when she had bad thoughts. It would make her realize what she was thinking about so she could deliberately change her thoughts. Would that help you?
That was me.
Is anyone else weird enought to inflict pain on themselves when thinking about their WH.
Oh wait, thats a retorical question....
T2L
Nope
Sometimes I wonder if I was just so boring and she was exciting and that's why he did this.
This is important
Me-38 H-38
Married 18 years
You've been married MORE THAN HALF YOUR LIFE.
OW is different/strange - not exciting.
What WH really wants is for you to sit & wait for him to sow the wild oats WH did not sow when he was a young adult.
And this is why WH picks an OW who is not up to your standard - because he does not really want to replace you (the person) with a new wife - he wants to experience some "strange".
He's emotionally regressed to the level of a teenager right now.
rebellious
willful
experimental
adventurous
breaking social taboos
depressed
struggling with authority
All of which are appropriate developmental transitions for a TEENAGER to play around with - but not for a man pushing 40 years old.
STAY FROSTY ... It is not you .... It is his current lack of manly maturity.
He's stuck. One foot in adulthood and the other foot in adolescence , all the while ... his head up his asp.
HH,
I've referred to "hamsters running on a wheel" when my thoughts won't stop churning, no matter what I try to do. It contributed to major health problems due to insomnia...
Here's one trick that works to quiet the thoughts. Since I'm a musician in a past life, (pre-marriage) I know Bach's Aire on the G String - both on violin and the piano, so note for note, I play this piece in my brain, lingering on every single note, without allowing any intrusion for the full 3-5 minutes it takes for me to do it. By then my thoughts are mine, instead of the hamsters!
BTW - you might want to check out a book I'm going to mention in my Plan B cafe - just picked it up over Christmas, and I think I'm going to stock several copies of it in the cafe, just in case some betrayed spouses want to read it - Daniel Amen wrote Change Your Brain, Change Your Life - talks bout quieting thoughts.
I totally agree -- MLC---just like my H. I found lots of parallels in the book "Men in Midlife Crisis." Unlike a teenager's rebellion though, our WH's rebellion is hurting a host of people with serious consequences. And instead of growing up or out of this phase, our WH's want to grow down -- act younger, be younger. But each day that goes by, they age another day.
My WH said the same thing. If only he had more than me as his girlfriend since 15. If only he hadn't married so young. If only he had gone another course. He's forgotten that we dated 7 years before getting married, we waited another 5 years before starting a family, and we were married 23 years before he had his A. He could have broken up with me anytime along the way. Only now, when he's gone and with OW, does he feel like he's life with me was a mistake.
He also used the golf analygy. He's always hit his ball down the middle of the green. Boring and straight. He said it's funner to mix it up. Hit in a trap, or behind a tree. To his example, I said -- yeah -- but who has the better score in the end? And if you're a pro golfer and start playing like crap, you lose fans, sponsors ($) and you get frustrated. Then you wish you had your own swing back!!!
Re. racing thoughts and insomnia... you'll never guess what used to help me get to sleep. Art Bell's late night radio program, "Coast To Coast." He talks about stuff like alien abductions and chupacabras! LOL Strange enough to chase away any other thoughts, and then the commercials were just monotone enough that I'd go to sleep.
Art Bell even appeared on X-Files once, I think.
Now I think it's someone else, I think a bit more mainstream. Oh well.
One thing that has ALWAYS been able to help me sleep is to make up stories in my head. I would have these long, incredibly detailed stories that I just couldn't wait to write down, only to have them gone when I woke up. However, they kept me from thinking about things that would keep me awake. Of course, I've been writing since I was a kid, so I don't know if it would help everyone? Benadryl was a life saver too
Nope
Sometimes I wonder if I was just so boring and she was exciting and that's why he did this.
This is important
Me-38 H-38
Married 18 years
You've been married MORE THAN HALF YOUR LIFE.
OW is different/strange - not exciting.
What WH really wants is for you to sit & wait for him to sow the wild oats WH did not sow when he was a young adult.
And this is why WH picks an OW who is not up to your standard - because he does not really want to replace you (the person) with a new wife - he wants to experience some "strange".
He's emotionally regressed to the level of a teenager right now.
rebellious
willful
experimental
adventurous
breaking social taboos
depressed
struggling with authority
All of which are appropriate developmental transitions for a TEENAGER to play around with - but not for a man pushing 40 years old.
STAY FROSTY ... It is not you .... It is his current lack of manly maturity.
He's stuck. One foot in adulthood and the other foot in adolescence , all the while ... his head up his asp.
All I can say is....
I hope he barfs wild oats. Yes he acts like a child.
So is that more than just an affair? Do all affairs exhibit this?
Is it MLC?
HE did say shortly after Dday that he should not have married me out of high school and that he should have sowed oats everywhere
I thought maybe it was fog babble.
So is that more than just an affair?
It is an affair.
And it is NOT because YOU are/were "boring".
That is my point!
T2L, sometimes when I can't sleep I listen to my dog snore that sleeps outside my door and I pretend it is my H. (smile)
T2L, I have 2 pieces of advice for you. I mean them very strongly.
1. Change your cell number. If there's an emergency that bad, he can call the police or your pastor.
2. Unplug your answering machine, and do not plug it back in until his rectocraniotomy is complete.
I would make those 2 things flash neon if I could. Your LB is in grave danger, and he is getting to you.
What other things can you do to cut him out of your thoughts, and the day to day reality of your life?
HE did say shortly after Dday that he should not have married me out of high school and that he should have sowed oats everywhere I thought maybe it was fog babble.
YEP...FOG BABBLE...right out of the WS HANDBOOK..
Once a WAYWARD..don't listen to anything he says...it's all BULLCRAP...
Re. racing thoughts and insomnia... you'll never guess what used to help me get to sleep. Art Bell's late night radio program, "Coast To Coast." He talks about stuff like alien abductions and chupacabras! LOL Strange enough to chase away any other thoughts, and then the commercials were just monotone enough that I'd go to sleep.
Art Bell even appeared on X-Files once, I think.
Now I think it's someone else, I think a bit more mainstream. Oh well.
Cool, jayne!
I used to listen to Art a LOT. Then he kept retiring and coming back and then he got married too soon after his wife Ramona died suddenly--(I thought so, anyway)--like 3 months or something crazy like that. (And I used to think Paul McCartney was bad! HA! Well, I still think Paul McCartney was stupid for getting married so soon and having a baby on top of that but that was a hard lesson learned, eh? He never was my favorite Beatle anyway!)
Anyway, I haven't listened in a long time but still check the site now and then. George Noory is still hosting most of the time and Art fills in sometimes. Still the same topics, though: paranormal, Bigfoot, UFO's, etc.
Art was never on the X-Files, (trust me, I have all 9 seasons and I even watch them on occasion!)--but he was on Millenium and on a show that Spielberg produced for the Sci/Fi channel called "Taken." We started to watch it when it came out but somewhere along the way I lost interest, I have no idea why!
Okay, done yakkin' fer now. I think!!
Charlotte
Oh yes, that whole second wife / traveling to (the Philipines? Somewhere overseas) to get married so suddenly... well that bothered me. I didn't listen regularly so it was like one day he was married to Ramona, and the next he was retired or overseas or something, and the next he was talking about his wife who wasn't Ramona and I wasn't sure what had happened.
Hmm, what was he on then? I must be thinking of Millenium, cus I never saw "Taken." Unless there was something else he was on... Oh the memories! Back when I had time to watch tv!
Oh yes, that whole second wife / traveling to (the Philipines? Somewhere overseas) to get married so suddenly... well that bothered me. I didn't listen regularly so it was like one day he was married to Ramona, and the next he was retired or overseas or something, and the next he was talking about his wife who wasn't Ramona and I wasn't sure what had happened.
Hmm, what was he on then? I must be thinking of Millenium, cus I never saw "Taken." Unless there was something else he was on... Oh the memories! Back when I had time to watch tv!
LOL! Yeah, me too! It's so quiet around here now, the tv used to be on all of the time, especially when Gray was home! The dang tv ruled the schedule! Ridiculous!
Yeah, Ramona died when she and Art were staying at a hotel. She had an asthma attack during the night and he woke up and found her gone. That was at the beginning of that year and the next thing you know...three months later he was getting remarried!! :MrEEk:
That was just TOO quick! I couldn't help thinking at the time that he already knew Miss Chickie-poo before Ramona died. I never found out if he did, though.
Yeah, he moved down there for a while and had to do quite a lot to broadcast from there and then there was a bad hurricane and not long after that he and his new bride moved back to Pahrump. Then she was pregnant. She was pretty young at the time, too.
So maybe he didn't know her and just picked her out of some Phillipine want-ads for brides or something. Maybe he just couldn't stand to be alone and was trying to recreate Ramona. I don't know, it's still weird, whatever the reason!!
Yeah, it was probably Millenium you are thinking of. We used to like that one until Chris Carter started pushing the "Millenium Group" angle instead of sticking to the original theme. Plus I think I remember that he killed off a main character and that about did it for us.
Anyway, I ramble on!! LOL!! Time for bed now, though!
Charlotte
I know what you are saying and it really do need to push this bonehead out of my head. That is exactly what I need to do. I have a tendency to analyze, rehash, rewind and replay, over and over and over. I hate this about myself. I do it even when i am trying to distract myself and keep busy, its like my mind just runs and runs over the whole thing and everything said and when they sleep at night and if they are happy and everything imaginable under the sun! Why is my brain like this!
I understand what you are saying and I think I gotta fight this tooth and nail to push this dude out of my head all together. I think its critical to my very existence if that makes sense. I think I am going to have to be nasty with my own self and not give myself room in my mind until all this thinking stops. I know the bible says to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. I already know this but I think I am going to have find every ounce of strength in me and control the thoughts just like the bible says. I know your supposed to keep busy and do things you enjoy but I still think even during those times, but I know I can stop the thoughts. I did it much better in Plan A. Even then you have thoughts that you have to control to even be able to do the plan A, i guess I just let my thoughts run during this PB.
Okay, today I am going to put post its in all areas I am usually in, in the house. I am going to print up stuff to put in my bathroom and at my computer desk. I am going to purpose to turn all my thoughts. You guys can remind me too. H has control of my life through my thoughts and I have got to stop this. Yes I am sad, and I'm not sure there's too much I can do about that, but I am going to get him out of my head, and yes if I don't I am going to hate him. Its definitely very hard with the kids but if there is a will there is a way and i gotta find that balance.
Okay I am going to do this. Gonna push H out of my head to protect both of us-no all of us.
For Trying and for anyone finding obsessive thoughts a serious problem, I have the following suggestion.
A full 2 years after D Day of March 2005, I was still going through my slow, not-quite nervous breakdown. In April 2007 read an article in the British
Observer magazine about hypnotherapy. It was part of the health and beauty section, in which journalists try out various treatments and report on them. This journalist visited a hypnotherapist in London and reported positively. She hadn't gone there to get help specifically with her love life but with her peace of mind more generally. However, the therapist uncovered a broken relationship which on the surface she had got over, but about which underneath she was still unhappy about.
Under hypnosis, he got her to let it go, and a few weeks later, when she wrote the article, she was experiencing relief from an unhappiness she hadn't realised she was still feeling. Her article named the therapist and the clinic (The Hale Clinic, a quite well-known centre for alternative therapies in London.) In desperation in May 2007 I booked an appointment with the same therapist and the treatment made a world of difference to me. The therapist couldn't wave a magic wand and change my husband or make the affair something that never happened, but the session dramatically reduced my misery, obsessive thoughts and feelings that H had done what he had because I hadn't been good enough. In fact, the feelings that I hadn't been good enough and that OW had been some sort of queen were turned completely upside down. From the moment I got home that day (it took about an hour for me to realise I felt different) I realised genuinely that I was a goddess and OW was crap beneath my shoe. I have walked on air ever since.
The only downside was that for some time I also looked down on WH, rather badly. I saw him as pathetic, unprincipled and a bad father for doing what he did to our kids. While the affair was in progress we were having frequent, and I thought good sex and fun at home but he wanted sex with a bit of strange THAT BADLY that he would risk breaking up our family for a woman that he did not ever want to live with, but was sexually obsessed with.
That feeling of contempt was a big problem because I was still living with him and trying to make recovery successful. I had to work a bit to adjust my feelings for him so that I could carry on living with him. I tried to build respect for him by recognising how much he did to keep us together. He did maintain contact with her for two years until I was driven to contact her H (just before I tried the hypnotherapy), but he also gave up the job he liked and stayed through all my hatred of him. He tries hard now to make me happy.
I told OWH my experience and he saw the same therapist when he visited London. He reported a big improvement to his own well-being. When I exposed the affair to him in 2007, he had known that my H and his W had "had lunch" a couple of times in 2003 and he had banned her from doing so again. He never suspected that my H had already slept in his bed and travelled abroad with his wife, and that the affair had continued for another 3 years after his partial discovery. He was so badly affected that he was prescribed anti-depressants, but the hypnotherapy calmed his thoughts more than the drugs seemed to.
Anyway, you might care to look into it, if you are in a bad way. Make sure that you choose a qualified hypnotherapist. You don't have to believe in it or practice anything on your own at home. You more or less tell him or her what the problem is and what you want done about it, and then listen to what is said to you when you are in a very relaxed state (you are not put to sleep!). What is said will act on your unconscious mind without your having to do anything. You would get a huge confidence boost and strength to go through this long trial if you tried a session. My session in London cost me £90 for one hour and I never needed another. You would probably pay less than this is you did not go to a swanky clinic, but you must make sure your therapist belongs to some institute that is seen as respectable in your country.
Have you ever tried R.E.B.T?
This is a very good plan you can use to help your thinking "stay on track".
It has been used for decades by quite a few self help orginizations, and it is very effective.
You can buy books on this--
In fact- quite a few modern "self help" theories are basically R.E.B.T. plans that have been altered.
But -- you can find all the information you need to start practicing this online for free.
I gave a lecture on this, and I should go back and...wait a min. found it:
http://www.stressgroup.com/articles/article/1228898/13404.htm
Re: Tea, american.
Eww.
I have Dilmah Ceylon tea. Milk, no sugar. Hot.
Cold. Eww.
Sugar. Eww.
Lemon. Eww.
I had a Yankee friend who never liked ice tea, only hot tea... until she came down south and tasted REAL tea. The reason ice tea doesn't taste good is cus Y'ALL DON'T PUT ENOUGH SUGAR IN IT!!!!!
I remember as a kid... tea was always the drink served with supper. In tall glasses, with teaspoons. You can barely find teaspoons anymore. I don't mean coffee spoons, those spoons that fit in a coffee cup and are smaller than soup spoons. I mean, long-handled spoons that will reach to the bottom of a long tall glass, so you can stir up all the sugar that sedimented out, between each sip.
Sheepishly toeing the ground....I've a confession.
The only cane sugar I buy is organic...as such, it still has a high molasses content and makes the tea taste like molasses...blech.
The Wookie has diabetes...splenda is the only sweetner on the table.
In trying to back up the Wookie and not over sugar anything, so I've taught myself to drink iced tea totally without sugar - and, dern it all, I like it that way.
Mel's gonna kill me.
I'm still a GRITS woman, tho.
I'd totally dream about chupacrabras...or socks...which is just as bad.
My mom taught me to begin with my toes and conciously work my way up my legs telling each major muscle group to relax, it's time to relax...by the time I get to my neck and tongue, I've usually dozed off.
For Trying and for anyone finding obsessive thoughts a serious problem, I have the following suggestion.
A full 2 years after D Day of March 2005, I was still going through my slow, not-quite nervous breakdown. In April 2007 read an article in the British Observer magazine about hypnotherapy. It was part of the health and beauty section, in which journalists try out various treatments and report on them. This journalist visited a hypnotherapist in London and reported positively. She hadn't gone there to get help specifically with her love life but with her peace of mind more generally. However, the therapist uncovered a broken relationship which on the surface she had got over, but about which underneath she was still unhappy about.
Under hypnosis, he got her to let it go, and a few weeks later, when she wrote the article, she was experiencing relief from an unhappiness she hadn't realised she was still feeling. Her article named the therapist and the clinic (The Hale Clinic, a quite well-known centre for alternative therapies in London.) In desperation in May 2007 I booked an appointment with the same therapist and the treatment made a world of difference to me. The therapist couldn't wave a magic wand and change my husband or make the affair something that never happened, but the session dramatically reduced my misery, obsessive thoughts and feelings that H had done what he had because I hadn't been good enough. In fact, the feelings that I hadn't been good enough and that OW had been some sort of queen were turned completely upside down. From the moment I got home that day (it took about an hour for me to realise I felt different) I realised genuinely that I was a goddess and OW was crap beneath my shoe. I have walked on air ever since.
The only downside was that for some time I also looked down on WH, rather badly. I saw him as pathetic, unprincipled and a bad father for doing what he did to our kids. While the affair was in progress we were having frequent, and I thought good sex and fun at home but he wanted sex with a bit of strange THAT BADLY that he would risk breaking up our family for a woman that he did not ever want to live with, but was sexually obsessed with.
That feeling of contempt was a big problem because I was still living with him and trying to make recovery successful. I had to work a bit to adjust my feelings for him so that I could carry on living with him. I tried to build respect for him by recognising how much he did to keep us together. He did maintain contact with her for two years until I was driven to contact her H (just before I tried the hypnotherapy), but he also gave up the job he liked and stayed through all my hatred of him. He tries hard now to make me happy.
I told OWH my experience and he saw the same therapist when he visited London. He reported a big improvement to his own well-being. When I exposed the affair to him in 2007, he had known that my H and his W had "had lunch" a couple of times in 2003 and he had banned her from doing so again. He never suspected that my H had already slept in his bed and travelled abroad with his wife, and that the affair had continued for another 3 years after his partial discovery. He was so badly affected that he was prescribed anti-depressants, but the hypnotherapy calmed his thoughts more than the drugs seemed to.
Anyway, you might care to look into it, if you are in a bad way. Make sure that you choose a qualified hypnotherapist. You don't have to believe in it or practice anything on your own at home. You more or less tell him or her what the problem is and what you want done about it, and then listen to what is said to you when you are in a very relaxed state (you are not put to sleep!). What is said will act on your unconscious mind without your having to do anything. You would get a huge confidence boost and strength to go through this long trial if you tried a session. My session in London cost me £90 for one hour and I never needed another. You would probably pay less than this is you did not go to a swanky clinic, but you must make sure your therapist belongs to some institute that is seen as respectable in your country.
Awe thanks so much for thinking of me, very sweet. I couldn't do hypnotherapy. I know I'm nuts but I am a all natural kinda person, plus I hear that if you ever go under hypnosis if you have to go to court your testimony would not be valid as they feel its mind altering.
Plus not sure how I feel about hypnosis, I think it may open you up to spiritual things you may not want. Just my thoughts tho.
Well had a fairly successful day yesterday pushing H out of my head. And I slept good.
Back to the grind, DS10 is up and getting ready to home school and DD17 is back to her charter high school this morning.
T2L, I have 2 pieces of advice for you. I mean them very strongly.
1. Change your cell number. If there's an emergency that bad, he can call the police or your pastor.
2. Unplug your answering machine, and do not plug it back in until his rectocraniotomy is complete.
I would make those 2 things flash neon if I could. Your LB is in grave danger, and he is getting to you.
What other things can you do to cut him out of your thoughts, and the day to day reality of your life?
Flashing is good, I like flashing. If it is flashing in Pink, my favorite color, I will award extra IM mentor bonus points too.
Ok I know Yes my LB is in grave danger. Had a better day yesterday, pushing the thoughts out and not letting myself go there. Its hard, but the day was better and I slept good with no trouble falling asleep.
Okay for the cell number, even if I changed the number it wouldn't matter as the cell bill goes straight to him. I have been using the house phone more as the bill comes here so he cannot see who I am talking to. So he would see the number change. We have a family plan H pays for, it has all 4 of our phones on it. Financially I rely on him for that.
I can however unplug the answering machine. He usually only calls towards the evenings so I can unplug it then. He has never called during the day.
Need some input. So I think my H has 3 people feeding him crap and supporting him, his 1 brother, mother and the Sea Hag. Here is my question, DS10 does not want to talk to him or see him as he is mad about hearing that message. BTW I found my recorder and will be removing it from answering machine today, anyways I do not want to have problems with accusations of parent alienation. What should I do? I'm not even sure I can force him to talk to his dad. H called last night at 8:25 but hung up when no one answered. I am pretty sure someone is telling him to log all his attempts of calling, but no worries I have a log of all the days he does not come to visit and his nasty message. But again I live in California and from what I hear they do not care about my journal or adultery or any of it.
So what do? Should I force DS10 to talk or to visit? Hey IM"s should I send communication saying that he heard that message by accident because of DD17 and that he is heart broken. Actually what DS10 told me on our walk Saturday was that he does not want to talk to his dad for a while and I said why and he said because he is nice to my face and talks to my mom like that, i want to punch him in his face 5 times.
I thought if I sent H communication and addressed DS10 being upset over the message then I would have a copy of the email and I would also show that I am not trying parent alienation.
Another song for you:
Rise Up by Third Day Here's a song I prayed FOR tst during his affair. When I heard it, I thought it must be what had happened to him.
Set Me Free by Casting Crowns "before the dark ones came, stole my mind, wrapped my sold in chains"
"all alone with my demons, I am"
Don't force your son to do anything. Just be there for him. Go on walks with him and let him talk. Play games with him. Have movie night on a blanket in the living room. Give him lots of good memories to fill up this time with.
Not your job to correct H on how to deal with his son at this point. If you want, you can let IM know and they can pass on the news if it feels right.
Your job to stop thinking about him and let him stew in his own juices. Have you changed your email address? Changed password on your phone? Things like that?
T2L {{{hugs}}} as always. Glad to hear you got some sleep. I did pretty good. Woke up at 4:30 but managed to go back to sleep instead of my mind churning through the darkness.
As for your son, even though my D15 is older, at the beginning she was angry at her Dad and I was pushing her to see him because she needed to have respect for him (where is the 2x4 to hit myself). What happened is she started getting more angry and directing it to me.
Validate his feelings. 10 is not 6. Let him know that he allowed to be angry for a little and not see him but will need to talk out his feelings in a week or so and at that point he might miss him. Your H has only really gotten grief from D17, so it might make him pause seeing that S10 is having issues. We need to stop protecting them and protect our kids.
Disney land in March?
Don't force your son to do anything. Just be there for him. Go on walks with him and let him talk. Play games with him. Have movie night on a blanket in the living room. Give him lots of good memories to fill up this time with.
Not your job to correct H on how to deal with his son at this point. If you want, you can let IM know and they can pass on the news if it feels right.
Your job to stop thinking about him and let him stew in his own juices. Have you changed your email address? Changed password on your phone? Things like that?
Okay, I won't force him. Don't want to correct H, but letting him know why son is not answering the phone I thought would be in order. It may protect me from accusation that I denied him access to his son. DS10 has been mad at his dad before, Pre SAA and I told his dad to call even if he is mad and when he is ready he will answer. But I definitely do not want to be legally held for parent alienation.
I told my H in the PBL that my email address would be shut off that night and I have not had any contact with him through that.
Our cell phones are on a joint family plan and the bill goes to his house. I am making pointless calls on the cell phone and important calls on the house phone as the bill comes to my house. So yeah I've done as much as I can.
Third Day is the BESTEST EVER!
Cry out to Jesus is especially fitting!
If you can disable the voice mail on your cell phone, I would really recommend it. You can still see who called, and whether you want to call them back.
If I was a 1/2-way bright WS (ok, no such animal, but work with me here), and I got in hot water for leaving a cussing message that my kids got ahold of, the very next thing I would try was the cell phone, since only you would receive that message and I could be as bad as I wanted.
Failing that, as soon as you can, get one of those cheap little prepaid phones and stop using your other one.
End of day, update, not much LOL. No contact and dark.
Did okay pushing him out of my head.
An older lady from from church emailed me today. She used to be the head secretary. She wanted to encourage me, it was sweet. She said she had been in my place a few times in her life. IDK, it was nice and i thanked her but I am still stinging from everything, not just church stuff but the affair and everything. I just need a few weeks to think before I can go back.
H didn't contact the kids and did not visit on scheduled day today or scheduled Sunday. I can't really understand why he would take it out on them.
It hurts me that he does that to them. He gets mad if they don't answer the phone, but I cannot get DS10 to talk on the phone, he won't do it. He's mad and me asking him if he wants to answer when the phone rings makes him even angrier. The kids seem calmer when he doesn't contact or have to visit. No getting ready to rush off and visit and no pressure of the awkward phone call or what to say.
I don't think he realizes how the kids view things. DD17 told me she has lost all respect for him. She loves him as her dad but even that has changed. DS10 is up and down and all over the place. He loves his daddy and is angry with his daddy and needs his daddy. It a very messed up thing.
I should be hearing from a new counselor tomorrow for DS10.
It worries me when H is that quiet, for over a day. I wonder if he will just get sick of it all and file on me. I can't stop it if he does, it scares me. I guess I should stop, I'm worrying for tomorrow and it hasn't gotten here.
Did the last of the throwing out and organizing today as DD17 was at my desk and using the computer alot today. Since the 1st I have throw out 6 very large lawn and leaf
G'night friends
BTW: How do you go back to an old page in your own thread and edit? I thought just incase H finds this, which I pray to God he doesn't I should edit out that intimate stuff in during the PA. Anyways can you go back to your own post a month or two old and edit? If so how?
Who is this person that you are wondering what they might do? *looking around* I don't see anyone named "H" here. You must be mistaken. There is no "H" here. There is DD17 and DS10 and all us electrons out here ROFL I can't remember anyone else. Can you?
You can't that I know of. Other than maybe asking the mods to do it for you. If you find a way, let me know, LOL. I want to take pictures off of my thread (JIC, you know?)
Kids are so much more intuitive than we give them credit for. DD12 would say (during the A) that Dad was acting weird, not acting like himself. And, I had said nothing to her! They really know when something is wrong and the really do make judgment of the parent that is in the wrong. It's very difficult.
I just had to second another poster who said that your husband was an idiot because you are gorgeous!! I saw your pic on the photo album and you so are. You're kids are beautiful, too. You are too sweet, kind, and pretty to be dealing with someone like your WH. Ugh, WS's....
T2L, can you come over and organize my house? What are you going to do after you run out of chores? vacation??
I also sometimes think about H accessing this site. Yeah right, but it would be really really incriminating especially after I posted on Non Violet D day reactions (read for a laugh) some really good ones in there.
Sorry your H is being such a fog bobble head with the kids. I hate that. Stop by my sitch and read about my lovely H. He is like a spoiled child - me me me. I feel like grounding him.
My heart goes out to your son. They hate, love, cry, need it is a sorry time for them. I know the world is not perfect but it is up to us as parents to try and make it good for our kids. My D15 was so grounded before all of this, now she is struggling. I am angry. But I pray for her to have peace.
Hold your head up and take care.
P.S. I agree with all the others what a "fox" you are. What an idiot when your H traded really down.
Also you cannot edit old posts. You only have the capability for about 20 minutes from when you post it.
It hurts me that he does that to them.
And this is why he does it...
If you won't let him hurt you face to face, he's gonna use the kids to get atcha. We've already seen him do it a few times.
It hurts me that he does that to them.
And this is why he does it...
If you won't let him hurt you face to face, he's gonna use the kids to get atcha. We've already seen him do it a few times.
I don't even think he's trying to get at me by ignoring kids, I'm probably wrong. Whenever the kids are upset with HIM he gets mad at them and doesn't talk to them.
His famous saying to kids all the time now is, "Ya know I am still your father, I want to be your father". I mean what are they supposed to say to that? They usually are not sure how to respond and they say I know. Several months ago Pre-SAA he had said he feels he can be a better father by not being with me. This is his motive and goal now to try and be this involved dad, that he never really was.
I mean he did however tuck them in and spend about 20 minutes each night with them, of course it was at my request and he gave me massive grief over the request, but it was very special to the kids and always laughter came from the bedrooms. Aside of that he wasn't too involved, actually not attached or bonded would be better words to describe it. I know he loved them, but in hindsight, it seems like we ALL were kinda a bother.
I don't even think he's trying to get at me by ignoring kids, I'm probably wrong. Whenever the kids are upset with HIM he gets mad at them and doesn't talk to them.
His famous saying to kids all the time now is, "Ya know I am still your father, I want to be your father". I mean what are they supposed to say to that? They usually are not sure how to respond and they say I know. Several months ago Pre-SAA he had said he feels he can be a better father by not being with me. This is his motive and goal now to try and be this involved dad, that he never really was.
This sounds EXACTLY like my WxH. Twenty nine months after he left I want to ask "how's that working for you?" One daughter refused to go to visitation with him and he very seldom ever speaks to her on the phone. He sees it as HER problem.
You are doing wonderfully, T2L. Lucky for them, their father may be a putz, but they have a FANTASTIC mother.
their father may be a putz
He's just another wayward
good morning T2L!!!!!!
Sorry about the early morning (to me) text
I just had to say hi
BTW: How do you go back to an old page in your own thread and edit? I thought just incase H finds this, which I pray to God he doesn't I should edit out that intimate stuff in during the PA. Anyways can you go back to your own post a month or two old and edit? If so how?
You will need to notify the mods of each post you want edited.
I would like to ask that you make a copy of them for when you dont care so much. There was a lot of really great information in them, they made alot of people smile and show newbies that its not all doom and gloom this side of affairland. We do have fun, and we can be silly, and just be ourselves for a while instead of the BS.
I would be happy to save it on my computer if you don't want it on your home computer. Or maybe someone else could start a thread under their name and we could move the posts to it.
Please please please???
Ya know I am still your father, I want to be your father". I mean what are they supposed to say to that?
They can say, no... my father would never abandon his family. My father is a good man who loves the Lord. My father loves his wife. My father is not a cheater.
good morning T2L!!!!!!
Sorry about the early morning (to me) text
I just had to say hi
BTW: How do you go back to an old page in your own thread and edit? I thought just incase H finds this, which I pray to God he doesn't I should edit out that intimate stuff in during the PA. Anyways can you go back to your own post a month or two old and edit? If so how?
You will need to notify the mods of each post you want edited.
I would like to ask that you make a copy of them for when you dont care so much. There was a lot of really great information in them, they made alot of people smile and show newbies that its not all doom and gloom this side of affairland. We do have fun, and we can be silly, and just be ourselves for a while instead of the BS.
I would be happy to save it on my computer if you don't want it on your home computer. Or maybe someone else could start a thread under their name and we could move the posts to it.
Please please please???
I don't mind it really, I was just thinking that if H ever found it and the whole ED issue that happened during PA might crush him as man, ya know what I mean. But I am not totally opposed to it. I didn't even hear the text love, guess I was snoring away, and that's a good thing for me. But I did get it after I woke up this morn'
I don't mind it really, I was just thinking that if H ever found it and the whole ED issue that happened during PA might crush him as man, ya know what I mean. But I am not totally opposed to it.
JMHO and it aint worth a whole lot.. this is true but if you recover he will have to accept it. I mean hasnt read alot my my threads but he knows there a fairly large bit about woods....
And if you don't recover, will you really care what he thinks???
Or maybe someone else could start a thread under their name and we could move the posts to it.
Please please please???
How would this help? Would he recognize your current screen name?
If that's the case, I'd be happy to start a thread for you. I'll call it "The Side Effects of Ramen Noodle", LOL, just kidding. I'll name it whatever you want, but you'll have to ask the mods to move your whole thread to it... if they can...
Another idea is T2L could start a new thread, after all the name for this is SO NOT TRUE!!!
and this one will just fall down the board into obscurity until it is needed
Another idea is T2L could start a new thread, after all the name for this is SO NOT TRUE!!!
and this one will just fall down the board into obscurity until it is needed
That's true, but I wonder if she's also worried about him recognizing her user name.
Possible.
I was thinking that there wouldnt be manynew users first coming on here and knowing how to use the search function, or how to work out what posts have been created by a user A couple of dozen posts to a new thread will remove this thread from the first page list of "all posts made by..."
In fact I have given up on the search function myself and google stuff now.
That's true, but I wonder if she's also worried about him recognizing her user name.
So what should I do. I mean I don't know if he'd find this site or know about the book but you never know.
I don't know if he would guess my user name, but even if he did I'm not sure he would be savvy enough to find archived stuff. But I could start a new thread and let this one run off. Should I do that or leave it all here. I just would hate for him to be embarrassed or hurt but then I want to help anyone with PA or PB.
Hey PM I haven't read your entire thread, was your H a crazy angry fool with massive entitlement? Did he ever accuse you of controlling?
I need to read the rest of your. I'm at false recovery on SMB's and only got through some of yours. I think I need the link to yours.
Hi T2L, first has H used your computer and saw you up on this site? Would he be smart enough to use a keylogger type of equipment to see what you are doing on line? From hearing about him I would not give him that much credit. Deep breaths girl, deep deep breaths.
Going after work today to buy suggested vitamins for sleep cycle. I had circle under my eyes today, I start to count sheep and then they turn into plastic pinatas. whoa is me.
His famous saying to kids all the time now is, "Ya know I am still your father, I want to be your father". I mean what are they supposed to say to that? They usually are not sure how to respond and they say I know.
I would suggest; Yes you will always be our Father, but your absence and part time role prevents you from having the ability to be a Dad.
I know, I know, you can't tell them this directly, but you can direct them here to read what I said.
BTW, kids see through "Disney Land Dad's".
I know he loved them, but in hindsight, it seems like we ALL were kinda a bother.
Please be careful T2L......the sucking sound you hear is you draining you own love bank. Don't rewrite your own history.
Would this work:
You change your username to something he wouldn't recognize. Maybe SleeplessInSeattle or SadYankeeWife or AbandonedInAustralia.
This thread becomes the thread or SIS or SYW os AIA. You then create a new id (with the mods' permission... mods, would that be ok? Creating a new id not to deceive us here, but to preserve privacy issues that would bother a spouse?) and you start a new thread with your new id.
I wonder if your new id could even be the same as what you have now.
but he knows there a fairly large bit about woods....
You don't know how many times I've been tempted to refer to this, and held back!
His famous saying to kids all the time now is, "Ya know I am still your father, I want to be your father". I mean what are they supposed to say to that? They usually are not sure how to respond and they say I know.
I would suggest; Yes you will always be our Father, but your absence and part time role prevents you from having the ability to be a Dad.
I know, I know, you can't tell them this directly, but you can direct them here to read what I said.
BTW, kids see through "Disney Land Dad's".
I know he loved them, but in hindsight, it seems like we ALL were kinda a bother.
Please be careful T2L......the sucking sound you hear is you draining you own love bank. Don't rewrite your own history.
Going to direct kids to read the response. I know they see through DL Dad's. He did a lot of that through Christmas, giving the kids money etc. It does hurt as I am the one here 9 months later raising my kids alone. I just told DD17 to read it, she says she already tried that and he just says to her, well regardless of what you think I am still your father. So not sure it'll work.
Yes I seem to drain my own love bank LOL.
I was reading more of SMB's thread last night. I noticed it started in June and it looks like you were in Recovery by December. Is that right?
It will be 9 month's in 2 weeks since Dday. Time seems to drain my Love bank now. The longer this goes on the more I wonder if I could ever even forgive him and be able to do it. Saturday is 2 months in PB. In my eyes its not looking so great.
On the brighter side I think I have finished de-trashing and organizing every bit of the house including the garage. The only thing left is the swamp in the back yard LOL. Leaves have blown in the pool and its a bit mirky. Probably will do that this weekend. {{{{sigh}}} Onward.....
P.S. Thanks SMB for the songs. I listen to the over and over. Beauty for Pain is my fav so far.
I just told DD17 to read it, she says she already tried that and he just says to her, well regardless of what you think I am still your father. So not sure it'll work.
You cannot reason with a wayward, and neither can the kids.
Nothing is going to "work", so let your kids know not to EXPECT what they say to GET THROUGH. Nonetheless, a little chisel at a time, may eventually break through.
tst tells me of things that broke through his fog at times...things I said, or the kids said, or someone else said. Things that from all outward appearances had no affect. He remembers me stopping him in the hallway, putting my hand on his face and asking him why he was doing this to us. He says THAT got through for a brief moment. All I remember of that was he was cold as ice.
I was reading more of SMB's thread last night. I noticed it started in June and it looks like you were in Recovery by December. Is that right?
No, that's not exactly the timeline.
End of Feb 07: OW (old H.S. GF) came to FWH's business and A started right away. I immediately sensed something not right.
April 27: D-day #1 Mustered the courage to ask. He stammered around and then started telling me he had an A 13 years ago lasting a month, then another 5 years ago lasting a month, then another 6 months ago lasting a week. It was all lies to cover the actual A (first and only one) he was currently in. I found MB the next day. PRAISE GOD!
2 weeks later: False recovery #1 when he finally said he wanted to work on our marriage, too.
End of April until June 15: FWH spewing and babbling, lying and cheating. I keep snooping because something still didn’t feel right (and because Mel said so)
June 15: D-day #2 I intercepted a text to tst from OW. I confronted her on the phone, then him in person, and it was horrible...never loved you, always been her, just hanging around til kids are grown. More lies about our entire life together.
July 8: False recovery #2 He returns home saying he wants to restore marriage and already wrote OW a long good-bye letter so no need for a NC letter :RollieEyes: I wanted my life back so badly, I didn't require anything but words. He continues daily contact with OW. I keep snooping…because Mel said so.
August 26 or there about: D-day #3 , he tells me no matter what he does, his heart is just not in this and that he has gotten a condo and is moving the following weekend.
Labor Day, 07: he moves out again
Sept. 14: I celebrate our baby's 7th birthday without FWH and lose all hope and begin to believe all the lies.
end of Sept.: I turn focus to getting ducks in a row for Plan B, and plan to file for D as soon as 3 month waiting period ends (waiting to establish residency in county where tst moved because it would be in my best interest to file in that county—legal strategy) I still had back and forth days, because I still could not believe this all had happened (still can't) I was OVERDUE for Plan B.
October 07: I have A
Last week of Oct, tst begins communicating with great remorse and we meet on Oct 30. His transformation was undeniable.
1st week of Nov. 07: We are on a business trip together writing NC letters. tst comes to MB, and it takes less than a day for even the toughest of vets to see he is the real deal.
So, affair started end of Feb. 07, D-day #1 was April 26, reconciliation was Oct. 30. It was 8 months of total insanity. Really, 8 months of evil is more like it.
That's probably more info that you were asking, but I can ramble when I go back there.
The longer this goes on the more I wonder if I could ever even forgive him and be able to do it.
I felt that way, too.
But what if, you saw YOUR HUSBAND?
What if HE came back?
What if SOMEONE BETTER came home?
These are the same questions Ace and MicheleG asked me on my thread in Sept/Oct, right before a better man returned home.
It IS possible, T@L.
I don’t know what God has planned for your life, but I know that all things ARE possible through Christ. He DOES move mountains. HIS voice does make the demons tremble.
Hi T2L,
Just wanted to say Hi, before I go.
Flicks A was alot shorter than many but I had given up. I was 3 hours away from telling him to shove it when he text me, it was that close. Often it seems that the old saying "Its darkest before the dawn" is very very true. Hold on there sweetie, you can do it. You have strength, courage and God on your side.
If you don't, expect me to give you a whoppping when I come see ya.
T2L, stop at my sitch if you get a chance. I value your opinion on this one.
PM,
Well that's good to know, apparently then I must be your sister, the OTHER evial biatch control freak.
Accept I need to "change" on top of all that. LOL
Updates, dark PB day. No contact from H to the kids since Sunday. Kids actually are fine, at least for what it is. Yup, wrote it in my journal too.
I think its stress for them to have to go out to places to visit there father. It seems harder for them to visit instead of the way it used to be and having access to him whenever he is home. DD17 says its dumb I have to visit my own dad who should live here. Since he lives an hour away with the Sea Hag, and he can't come here, they have to figure out what to do for the visit and when they are bored then the visit is up.
Today DD17 did say wow, my dad hasn't talked to me in 3 days. I asked them today if they are okay and they said yes. I could never go 3 days with out hearing my children's voices. How he does it I don't know. Found a new therapist for DS10. We have orientation on Monday.
I still say prayers for H, although my Pastor had said to me the last we spoke to not concentrate on Mr. T2L but concentrate on myself for now, but then I think if no one else is praying for him I may be the only one. The great thing about praying for someone is its hard to hate em while you do.
When i go to sleep at night I miss my H, at least for a brief moment, and then I remember that he doesn't exist anymore. Its hard. I know I am supposed to be thinking on me, but when your head hits the pillow and all is quiet you can't help but remember. Miss his stupid jokes and humor that him and i had. Miss how he came home and bear hugged me and lifted me off the floor and said hey little lady or how he would call and say hey little lady. Don't miss the occasional anger or moodiness tho. Don't miss trying so hard, so very hard, to be perfect and make him happy.
Hate adultery. It ruins families and even ruins WS's. If only they could see.
G'night y'all.............
October 07: I have A
Last week of Oct, tst begins communicating with great remorse and we meet on Oct 30. His transformation was undeniable.
Sexymamabear, Did tst know about your A before he began communicating with great remorse?
Sorry to thread jack.
Sexymamabear, Did tst know about your A before he began communicating with great remorse?
Sorry to thread jack.
No! I had no clue.
She only laid it all on the table after she knew I was truly remorseful.
If you read our threads after Oct 25th, you will see how it all unfolded.
The affair was over about a month ago, and I officially ended it a week and a half ago.
I’m not sure any one thing brought about my change of heart; I would attribute it to a compilation of everything the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, all weighing in together. I recently realized how half hearted I have been for the last five years. I have given nothing in our relationship over the past five years anything beyond half of my attention or half of my effort. I keep hearing the half truths I have told you in my head over and over and can only see P. W. (his sponsor from AA who died about 6 years ago) reminding me that half measures avail us nothing. It seems that nothing is what I have as a result. I also have spent many hours with my mom over the past few months and she keeps asking me if I really did all I could to work things out with you. She has had a hard time with all this and doesn’t like to see us where we are. She has been wearing me out with the questions. She has also helped me see that where I am is not where I want to be. The realization of how much I have been in denial caused me to start searching my heart again. There has not been one great event, only a process of unraveling truths during my conversations with God and others.
I admire your strength and understand your doubts. I am very sorry I gave what belonged to you alone, to another.
Though I understand you’re skeptical, I still love you.
I am still reading your thread and got to this part. I am obviously in tears over TST's response. Could you ever see him saying this to you in the past? Did he ever examine him self or even express himself this way previously?
Though, It should give me hope, I cannot see Mr. T2L saying this to me. My H took us to church and on vacations and provided for us but i think he checked out emotionally many times as well, but I worked overtime to try and keep connected. He was there and did those things but yet he was not there if that makes sense. H has a hard time expressing him self, LOL guess that's apparent huh?
Almost done with your thread then on to PM's, my evial controlling biatch sister.
Sexymamabear, Did tst know about your A before he began communicating with great remorse?
Sorry to thread jack.
No! I had no clue.
She only laid it all on the table after she knew I was truly remorseful.
If you read our threads after Oct 25th, you will see how it all unfolded.
TST, Thanks for the response.
Sorry for the t/j
If you read our threads after Oct 25th, you will see how it all unfolded.
TST or SMB could you please bump your thread? I can not find it.
T2L has been talking so much about your thread....I want to read it too!!
Angie
SMB's thread:
SMB's Thread
SMB's thread:
SMB's Thread tst's thread:
tst's Thread
I still say prayers for H, although my Pastor had said to me the last we spoke to not concentrate on Mr. T2L but concentrate on myself for now, but then I think if no one else is praying for him I may be the only one. The great thing about praying for someone is its hard to hate em while you do.
When i go to sleep at night I miss my H, at least for a brief moment, and then I remember that he doesn't exist anymore. Its hard. I know I am supposed to be thinking on me, but when your head hits the pillow and all is quiet you can't help but remember. Miss his stupid jokes and humor that him and i had. Miss how he came home and bear hugged me and lifted me off the floor and said hey little lady or how he would call and say hey little lady. Don't miss the occasional anger or moodiness tho. Don't miss trying so hard, so very hard, to be perfect and make him happy.
It sounds like you are still in love with your
husband afterall but you push it out of your mind so you don't get hurt over and over and again. Don't give up hope, rely on the vets here and on God. Mortaman's post on husbands and wives is great and it points to the traditional roles of wives vs what they have become and how this has hindered a lot of marriages. (Strong powerful women are scary to men!) It might be worth a read too.
Keep praying for your enemies but focus on what God can do for them, not what you want. Focus on being thankful for your blessings and what you need for your peace, comfort and strength.
You're a remarkable woman and a real inspiration to many. You had an amazing plan A in the middle of the 9 months! Your WH is still connected to you and is dealing with your absence in his life everyday. Have faith that God is working in him.
To be upset over what you don't have is to waste what you do have. (Ken Keyes, Jr)
It is wise to keep in mind that neither success nor failure is ever final. (R Babson)
Could you ever see him saying this to you in the past? Did he ever examine him self or even express himself this way previously?
tst has, over the years, written beautiful letters and spoken sweet words to me often. In fact, during his affair, I pulled out a letter he had written just a few years before, telling me how much he loved me and how beautiful I was to him inside and out, how much he loved watching me care for our children, and that I was the most loving person he had ever known. I read that letter over and over, trying to figure out how he went from that to not loving me and leaving me. I clung to that letter. I would read it and scream, "IT WAS REAL!" Then one day, I folded it up and put it away and told myself I would never read it again. I had forgotten about it until now.
As far as examining himself, tst spent a great deal of energy throughout his adulthood examining himself. He went through rehab at 17 and had a great AA sponsor that he worked with until his death a few years back. But he was a prideful man, and strong willed and stubborn (as am I
)
He had taken a hard look at himself many times over and made changes, but there was a secret place in him that was locked. A place he didn't know was there. But when God broke him after the affair, God unlocked that place that I had never been able to get to. I saw it the moment I laid eyes on him that day we went to talk about reconciling.
I can't explain it, T2L. I really can't. I just know that it was supernatural. God stripped tst of every wall he ever had in place. Not only could I reach where I had never been, tst craved me being there.
God can do things you cannot even imagine he can do.
Something else I just remembered. When tst left the second time, I spoke with someone who told me something I think could be valuable to you.
We attend a very large church. I had not ran into this lady at church at all since tst's affair began. She is actually related to tst--his dad's cousin. Our paths crossed in the hallway and I told her tst was having an affair and had left, didn't love me and said he never had.
She grabbed hold of me and held me close and told me:
You are ONE FLESH with your husband. tst doesn't realize it, but there is POWER in your prayers. Your prayers are stronger than you realize because you are one flesh.
That same day at church our minister spoke on two-word prayers, and how they are just as powerful as the long, Christianese prayers.
Help me
Save me
Break me
Those kinds of prayers.
I came home and wrote in eyeliner pencil on my mirrors (which were already covered in Bible verses) prayers for tst.
Chase after him
Deliver him
Rescue him
Save him
Everytime I looked at the mirror I read those prayers...several times a day. Most days that's all my prayers for tst consisted of. They said it all in as few words as possible.
tst told me early in recovery that when he saw those prayers he couldn't believe it. He was in the home working on our remodeling project that last month before he came home. As soon as he got there, I gathered the children and we left. He went into my/our room and read my prayers and all the verses all over the mirrors. I had no idea he saw them, let alone what it did to him to see them. He wrote in red lip liner, "I am so very sorry."
When I saw it, I said to myself, sorry for what. WTH is that suppose to mean. Now I know it meant he was filled with grief and sorrow for all that he had destroyed.
T2L, you don't know what's going on in WS's head. Don't even try to guess. Everyday, pray, then go on with your day. God will lead you through this one way or another.
T2L, you may not know, Neak is the author of an incredibly insightful book about spiritual warfare.
T2L, you don't know what's going on in WS's head. Don't even try to guess. Everyday, pray, then go on with your day. God will lead you through this one way or another.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
tst has, over the years, written beautiful letters and spoken sweet words to me often. In fact, during his affair, I pulled out a letter he had written just a few years before, telling me how much he loved me and how beautiful I was to him inside and out, how much he loved watching me care for our children, and that I was the most loving person he had ever known. I read that letter over and over, trying to figure out how he went from that to not loving me and leaving me. I clung to that letter. I would read it and scream, "IT WAS REAL!" Then one day, I folded it up and put it away and told myself I would never read it again. I had forgotten about it until now.
As far as examining himself, tst spent a great deal of energy throughout his adulthood examining himself. He went through rehab at 17 and had a great AA sponsor that he worked with until his death a few years back. But he was a prideful man, and strong willed and stubborn (as am I
)
He had taken a hard look at himself many times over and made changes, but there was a secret place in him that was locked. A place he didn't know was there. But when God broke him after the affair, God unlocked that place that I had never been able to get to. I saw it the moment I laid eyes on him that day we went to talk about reconciling.
I can't explain it, T2L. I really can't. I just know that it was supernatural. God stripped tst of every wall he ever had in place. Not only could I reach where I had never been, tst craved me being there.
God can do things you cannot even imagine he can do.
Wow. I am reading his thread too. It's really just mind blowing I have to say. I mean to hear a FWS and how candid he was and willing and the brokenness!!! Man!
Well my H has never really looked at his self or expressed his self. He never really wrote much on the cards I did get, although he did pick ones that he said expressed what he was feeling.
Except of course the very last card I got and was blown away at. Funny, really. HE gave me a Valentines Day card that had said thanks for being there through all the ups and downs with me and I appreciate you and Love you yada yada(He went PA 2 weeks later)....At the time I was like whoa I can't believe he wrote that much, now I know why.
H has much locked up inside of himself, but he doesn't think anything is there. I mean the ups and downs of his mood and occasional anger kinda says differently. If I would ask him things during the marriage he would say don't Dr. Phil me or psychoanalyze me. I tried to ask him questions during the marriage hoping he would see but he never felt anything was wrong with him.
I understand the supernatural. But then I do understand that the bible says (when he was in his home town) that Jesus could do no mighty work. My fear is the hardness of my H's heart. It doesn't sound like TST, although was fogged in, didn't have hardness to his heart to the Lord.
I am so glad that your H yielded to the Lord. The story is amazing.
T2L, you may not know, Neak is the author of an incredibly insightful book about spiritual warfare.
What you Lil Neakie Pooh are you holding out on me??? Ok that's it, 3 lashes with a wet noodle for the IM holding out on me!!!
So send me the info Neakie!!!
My fear is the hardness of my H's heart.
I said the exact same words to a friend.
She told me that God told her (when praying for us) to "have hope".
It doesn't sound like TST, although was fogged in, didn't have hardness to his heart to the Lord.
His heart was very hard. I really could not see him ever coming out of it.
tst says God wrestled him and body slammed him every night for weeks.
He could not eat, he could not sleep.
And all the while, my friend and prayer warrior that I mentioned above, was praying exactly that...make his stomach churn so that he cannot eat, let him get no rest.
tst used the exact words that my friend had prayed when describing to me what God was doing to him during that "breaking time". I made sure to let my friend know God answered her word for word.
It's all so humbling.
SMB,
H has said so many bad things about Church and Christians and even mocked DD17's Christianity. That's how hard he is.
Okay, then I will continue to pray that way then. I have been praying no rest for a while now and i have been praying that God would make his self real to MR. T2L and that he would visit him as he did with Paul and....that if He could speak through donkeys then he can send skilled laborers in both their paths to bring conviction. I pray that God softens his heart and that Jesus would become a deliverer to him.
Okay I will continue on praying.
BTW....You accidentally left his name.
SMB,
H has said so many bad things about Church and Christians and even mocked DD17's Christianity. That's how hard he is.
So did tst.
He was so ugly and dark.
BTW....You accidentally left his name.
Fixed that. Thank you.
T2L, stop by my sitch...
I did it...still shaking
Hey T2L, it's SMB and tst sitting here reading MB.
I have another song for you. I'm sure you know it.
Never Let Go by Matt Redman It's a song that spoke volumes to tst the days before he came home. He said there was a song he kept hearing over and over. It was this song.
God is working in ways you don't know.
Hi T2L
This comment made me remember something that God spoke to my heart early in my journey
My fear is the hardness of my H's heart
God just reminded me that my then WH was His prodigal, not mine.
I was able to release my WH's complete change in behavior and attitude to God and not feel responsible for whatever came next.
It also helped me focus my prayers for him as well.
Hope this helps-
Hey T2L, it's SMB and tst sitting here reading MB.
I have another song for you. I'm sure you know it.
Never Let Go by Matt Redman It's a song that spoke volumes to tst the days before he came home. He said there was a song he kept hearing over and over. It was this song.
God is working in ways you don't know.
Awe thanks you two Lil Love Birds! How completely adorable you're MB'ing together!
Thanks gonna go listen to it. So TST was listening to Christian music while he was a walkaway? Wow. Mr. T2L never really listened to Christian music, well I take that back he listened to 1 christian artist, his name is Kim Clement but that was mostly it. H mostly listened to a talk radio show out here. Its called KFI.
Updates, still dark. H has not called and spoken to the kids since Sunday Tomorrow will be
5 days. He has not visited them in longer than that, I think just after Christmas. I am writing it in my journal.
Not harassing me is one thing but gosh don't ignore your kids. My IM's notified him to continue to call the kids that they will eventually get over being angry with him over the nasty message they heard, but he's not calling at all.
DD17 said on Sunday she had responded to something he said and she thinks that's why hes mad and not calling. She said she told him you will never get me to believe that my mom is crazy.
Well they have been in a Plan B to him Pre-SAA and usually he will reach out to them at some point. I am glad he is not talking with them right now because its not healthy for them but its still their dad so I feel bad for them. But its pointless for him to call DS10 right now anyways he's really upset with him and will not talk.
But otherwise feel okay, DD17 and i crawled in my bed and watched a comedy together then all of us played the board game Clue after dinner.
My Birthday is in a week and a half, I'll be 39. DD17 wanted to plan a party with church friends but I am still kinda in hiding mode right now. Just need a few weeks away to process my hurts still.
BTW, what are some good family board games for ages 10-17?
I appreciate all your encouragements everyone, it means more than you know. I feel graced to keep praying for him and to try and hold on to love I have left.
Hey I saw Pep, posted something about a MB reunion thing. Do they still do that? I wish I could go hug everyone who has stood with me so far. No matter the outcome I could have never ever made it with out all of you.
Well, gonna read a little more of TST's thread and then on to PrincessMeggy's.
G'night y'all.
Oh Yeah my friend Hope3343 exposed to management yesterday, if you have time drop by her thread and give her some love. It was really hard for her but she did it.
Hi T2L
This comment made me remember something that God spoke to my heart early in my journey
My fear is the hardness of my H's heart
God just reminded me that my then WH was His prodigal, not mine.
I was able to release my WH's complete change in behavior and attitude to God and not feel responsible for whatever came next.
It also helped me focus my prayers for him as well.
Hope this helps-
JT,
Yes that does help. At times I go back and forth between trusting God and then I try and trust H that he can do this, if that makes sense. I know that really I need to release more to God. One of the things I have always struggled with is worry. I could worry at times for the whole world. I know God wants to carry this for me so I just need to let it go.
And yeah I took responsibility in the marriage for both of us. And if I said something he didn't like he would have an angry outburst and then I would take responsibility for it and apologize.
Things have to be different. And that means a freer T2L. A stronger T2L. A T2L that is no longer spinning her wheels to make H happy, when its an impossible task. I was set to failure because Mr. T2L is unhappy inside and I don't know why and I don't think he knows why.
I mean we both had terrible childhoods. His mom had numerous boyfriends, cheated on her 1st husband and the last man she stayed with was an diabetic hallucinating alcoholic who chased them around at nights, so I can see why he has a bit of anger. And I came from a childhood of sexual abuse. But when I came to Christ 15 years ago, I allowed God in and he brought so much healing to me and deliverance to my soul. But I didn't hide from him. My H hid from God. He loved God and served him but hid the darkest parts of his self to the only one who could free him. But now its all on the table and I truly hope, even if he doesn't return to the marriage that Mr. T2L is made free. Its one thing to hurt but a whole other to be in bondage and never taste freedom.
Thank you for sharing that, I'm going to give this to God and try not to keep taking it back by worrying so much. Boy it's hard. Feel free to chime in and slap me when you hear me worry.
Something else I just remembered. When tst left the second time, I spoke with someone who told me something I think could be valuable to you.
We attend a very large church. I had not ran into this lady at church at all since tst's affair began. She is actually related to tst--his dad's cousin. Our paths crossed in the hallway and I told her tst was having an affair and had left, didn't love me and said he never had.
She grabbed hold of me and held me close and told me:
You are ONE FLESH with your husband. tst doesn't realize it, but there is POWER in your prayers. Your prayers are stronger than you realize because you are one flesh.
That same day at church our minister spoke on two-word prayers, and how they are just as powerful as the long, Christianese prayers.
Help me
Save me
Break me
Those kinds of prayers.
I came home and wrote in eyeliner pencil on my mirrors (which were already covered in Bible verses) prayers for tst.
Chase after him
Deliver him
Rescue him
Save him
Everytime I looked at the mirror I read those prayers...several times a day. Most days that's all my prayers for tst consisted of. They said it all in as few words as possible.
tst told me early in recovery that when he saw those prayers he couldn't believe it. He was in the home working on our remodeling project that last month before he came home. As soon as he got there, I gathered the children and we left. He went into my/our room and read my prayers and all the verses all over the mirrors. I had no idea he saw them, let alone what it did to him to see them. He wrote in red lip liner, "I am so very sorry."
When I saw it, I said to myself, sorry for what. WTH is that suppose to mean. Now I know it meant he was filled with grief and sorrow for all that he had destroyed.
T2L, you don't know what's going on in WS's head. Don't even try to guess. Everyday, pray, then go on with your day. God will lead you through this one way or another.
Dunno 'bout you, but I think that woman had an angel on her shoulder whispering the right words to say to you.
Bless her heart!
T2L, you may not know, Neak is the author of an incredibly insightful book about spiritual warfare.
What you Lil Neakie Pooh are you holding out on me??? Ok that's it, 3 lashes with a wet noodle for the IM holding out on me!!!
So send me the info Neakie!!!
Hon - Neak's books are better than chocolate dipped chocolate bars!
And if you like her books, you'd love Frank Peretti's (sp) This present darkenss , Piercing the Darkness , and Prophet ...
[quote=Trying2liveI mean we both had terrible childhoods. His mom had numerous boyfriends, cheated on her 1st husband and the last man she stayed with was an diabetic hallucinating alcoholic who chased them around at nights, so I can see why he has a bit of anger. And I came from a childhood of sexual abuse. But when I came to Christ 15 years ago, I allowed God in and he brought so much healing to me and deliverance to my soul. But I didn't hide from him. My H hid from God. He loved God and served him but hid the darkest parts of his self to the only one who could free him. But now its all on the table and I truly hope, even if he doesn't return to the marriage that Mr. T2L is made free. Its one thing to hurt but a whole other to be in bondage and never taste freedom.
Thank you for sharing that, I'm going to give this to God and try not to keep taking it back by worrying so much. Boy it's hard. Feel free to chime in and slap me when you hear me worry.
[/quote]
The Wookie also had MAJOR trouble handing over his "power" to God...and because of that, EVERYONE in our family suffered.
I AM part of the Wookie, he IS an extension of me...and I knew it...but he didn't get that because he was not living a Godly life, our whole family was infected.
Once he realized that...and they have to do it on their own, more's the pity - can't beat it into 'em, no matter how much you wanna...once he gave it to God, EVERYTHING fell into place. Now, the places the bits fell into are not the SAME places they were before the adultry...but they are now in safer spots.
And all the while, my friend and prayer warrior that I mentioned above, was praying exactly that...make his stomach churn so that he cannot eat, let him get no rest.
tst used the exact words that my friend had prayed when describing to me what God was doing to him during that "breaking time". I made sure to let my friend know God answered her word for word.
T2L, prayer helps. Directed prayer even more. My sister, my church and I were all praying that God would "break" my husband. I know that prayer to break him was heard because:
He started with his feet. You'll read about it in my thread. That part was a hoot, a miraculous hoot.
Pray what's on your heart.
T2L
And all the while, my friend and prayer warrior that I mentioned above, was praying exactly that...make his stomach churn so that he cannot eat, let him get no rest.
tst used the exact words that my friend had prayed when describing to me what God was doing to him during that "breaking time". I made sure to let my friend know God answered her word for word.
T2L, prayer helps. Directed prayer even more. My sister, my church and I were all praying that God would "break" my husband. I know that prayer to break him was heard because:
He started with his feet. You'll read about it in my thread. That part was a hoot, a miraculous hoot.
Pray what's on your heart.
T2L
PM - you are such a blessing to the boards!
PM - you are such a blessing to the boards!
Aw thank you Dealan...
I love "This Present Darkness". I read it years ago, and have reread it from time to time. It really helps me by imagining the demons when I am depressed or losing hope.
I love "This Present Darkness". I read it years ago, and have reread it from time to time. It really helps me by imagining the demons when I am depressed or losing hope.
I've read that too. It IS a good book and DOES make you aware that there is more going on around us than we know.
My Birthday is in a week and a half, I'll be 39.
Uh-huh.
Sure.
I was 39 for, gosh, I dont' know how many years.
Actually, having seen a pic of you I'd believe 29 before 39.
I'm keeping up with your thread but just being kinda quiet, you have so much great input already there's not much for me to add. You have lots of silent supporters.
better than chocolate dipped chocolate bars!
Aw, thanks hunny! You remind me of the yogurt commercial.
And all the while, my friend and prayer warrior that I mentioned above, was praying exactly that...make his stomach churn so that he cannot eat, let him get no rest.
tst used the exact words that my friend had prayed when describing to me what God was doing to him during that "breaking time". I made sure to let my friend know God answered her word for word.
T2L, prayer helps. Directed prayer even more. My sister, my church and I were all praying that God would "break" my husband. I know that prayer to break him was heard because:
He started with his feet. You'll read about it in my thread. That part was a hoot, a miraculous hoot.
Pray what's on your heart.
T2L
This is all great! I have been praying constantly that God would humble him, bring him to the end of himself and deliver him emotionally, and now I am adding Lord squeeze everything out of him that is not of you so that he is an empty vessel you can pour into.
So we have beating,no eating and breaking now we'll add squeezing LOL!
My Birthday is in a week and a half, I'll be 39.
Uh-huh.
Sure.
I was 39 for, gosh, I dont' know how many years.
Actually, having seen a pic of you I'd believe 29 before 39.
I'm keeping up with your thread but just being kinda quiet, you have so much great input already there's not much for me to add. You have lots of silent supporters.
Hi turtle!!!!
Yup next year is the BIG 40! But Awe thanks dawhling, really lets give some credit to that lovely man that developed Murad! LOL I faithfully use Murad anti aging skin products Whooo Hooo! Sorry I love girly stuff. My H used to think I was dork.
If I bought a new scented lotion or spray I would do the happy dance. But I would do that happy dance for chocolate, new make, up, clothing, a new book or magazine. Yes I am as retarded as it seems, but I don't care. H used to look at me and chuckle at a woman happy over lotion. Then we would laugh together about it. One of the best things about him is he would make me laugh like no other person could. He had such wit and very quick wit. He lost that through this A. He tried a few times during Plan A but it wasn't the same.
Anyways, I passed it on to DS10. At 4 years old friends used to get him to do the happy dance for chocolate. LOL Obviously he won't do that now but it was very cute at 4.
And if you like her books, you'd love Frank Peretti's (sp) This present darkenss , Piercing the Darkness , and Prophet ...
Thanks for the Tip Ms. B and Dealan!
I went online to my local library and requested them. I think it's like a book I read about 10 years ago called "The Final Quest" by Rick Joyner. If you haven't read it check it out. ITs kinda mind blowing and the sequel to it is as well.
Aw, thanks hunny! You remind me of the yogurt commercial.
You see what I've done to this famous and most amazing writer!!! I've got her writing communications to a WS for me!!!!
And a nasty one at that.
Dear Lord maybe a book will come from that for all her trouble and i know it's not pretty being an IM to Mr. T2L.
Lord bless Pep, Neak, and Dealan for the suffering they endure at the emails of my H! This is my guess of course as they tell me nothing, I just know my H.
Kinda great actually. I can't imagine having an IM that would discuss things with you that the WS said. I can see how that would make you entirely and completely exhausted and nuts! They are really a great shelter.
DD17 gets up this morning and tells me that she sent a text page to her dad last night. I was a bit upset as I wanted him, THE FATHER, to be the one to reach out to his kids not the other way around.
I told her that I will not stop her from contacting him but I dislike having my children beg for scraps from their own father.
She apparently sent him a text saying, "so what you don't talk to your kids anymore?" And his prideful response to his daughter was "Oh I'm great thanks for asking."
You see prime example. DD17 sends text and he acts like an a$s to her.
I truly wanted to wait and see how long he would actually go without talking to them but every time we get near a week DD17 texts him.
Okay venting.....
I truly wanted to wait and see how long he would actually go without talking to them but every time we get near a week DD17 texts him.
Because she NEEDS him.
He is her father.
She wants to know (even though she will never admit it), "Daddy, don't you love me?"
This is between them, T2L. Let it stay there.
And...
I think it is important that you do not get upset when she contacts her daddy. You will unintentionally make her feel guilty for doing so, like she's not being loyal to you. Kids are already struggling with where their loyalty is suppose to be and not wanting to hurt the wronged parent more than they already have been. You are going to have to be extra-sensitive on this.
Think about what SHE needs and not what HE deserves. She needs him to love her.
Lord bless Pep, Neak, and Dealan for the suffering they endure at the emails of my H! This is my guess of course as they tell me nothing, I just know my H.
I have no emotional connection to him - he cannot bother me, hence there is no suffering on my part.
I suffer for you, and your hurt.
That's about it, kiddo.
Pep
I truly wanted to wait and see how long he would actually go without talking to them but every time we get near a week DD17 texts him.
Because she NEEDS him.
He is her father.
She wants to know (even though she will never admit it), "Daddy, don't you love me?"
This is between them, T2L. Let it stay there.
And...
I think it is important that you do not get upset when she contacts her daddy. You will unintentionally make her feel guilty for doing so, like she's not being loyal to you. Kids are already struggling with where their loyalty is suppose to be and not wanting to hurt the wronged parent more than they already have been. You are going to have to be extra-sensitive on this.
Think about what SHE needs and not what HE deserves. She needs him to love her.
Well said and I receive the correction. I just went in and I told DD17 that if I made her feel bad or guilty in any way for needing her dad that i was sorry and I realize that she may need him and to feel free to contact him whenever she needs to.
I do understand that they will both need there dad on an emotional level and its important so they do not feel abandonment and rejection.
I hate this whole bloody thing! All of it makes me sick. I mean he didn't even respond with love or remorse or anything. What kind of father says "Im great thanks for asking", when he hasn't talked to his own freakin kids for 5 days and hasn't seen them since just after Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How do you tell your DD17 your great! And she didn't even ask how you are, she asked so what you don't talk to your kids?!?!?!?
Here I am raising them alone, parenting them alone, and running a fairly large home alone and this idiot almost 9 months later still acts like a entitled full of pride fool! I thought at least when she said he responded that maybe he would be humble after not talking to them for that long but NO! I know don't expect him to have rational thinking!
UGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!
Yes I am draining my love bank! At this moment I don't care! At this very moment I think I HATE him! I should just harden my heart to this stinkin ba$t@rd and be done with him. Its not like I haven't tried, 9 months sounds fair to me!
9 Months folks, do you realize its almost 9months! I am truly trying to hang on and pray with gritted teeth for him. I mean how long does this need to go on! And ya know what I can't divorce this idiot even if I wanted to because I do not want to have DS10 living with them on weekends and I know no other way than to stay like this and divorce his funky retarded butt in my heart and head!
I'm sorry guys, I sorry for acting this way. It's feels like this has been going on forever. I have been told numerous times he doesn't deserve me and I'm beginning to wonder if he does.
He doesn't deserve you.
Now, turn your focus back to God. What can you do right now to bring some peace into your soul. Bath? Walk? Pray? Read Scripture? Turn on some praise music?
For me, it's dancing to some praise music. There's nothing like dancing!
BTW, I so appreciate how open you are to hearing what people are saying to you. You are so sweet and humble.
Let DD do her thing. Dad answered nastily, but don't think it didn't GET to him. As I told your DD, my ex told me many things that hit him in the soul, not at the time, but afterwards.
YAY T2L'sDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He doesn't deserve you.
Now, turn your focus back to God. What can you do right now to bring some peace into your soul. Bath? Walk? Pray? Read Scripture? Turn on some praise music?
For me, it's dancing to some praise music. There's nothing like dancing!
BTW, I so appreciate how open you are to hearing what people are saying to you. You are so sweet and humble.
Turning on Ella Fitzgerald Music real loud so kids can't hear me and headed to bath to cry once again.
Yup he doesn't deserve me. This is a saddening revelation I am just now getting.
Thanks, I have always tried to receive correction. Its that darn can't help do whats right thing God put in me. Sometimes I feel like its a curse. I can't do whats wrong ever,it eats me alive. H hates that about me too. He used to say I was being overly religious, but it wasn't really, that's just the way God wired me.
Bath calling me....
Showers are best for crying but for a spoil me bath, I LOVE:
bubbles
candles
music
hot hot hot water
Showers are best for crying but for a spoil me bath, I LOVE:
bubbles
candles
music
hot hot hot water
That's a bath?
I thought that was heaven.
What kind of father says "Im great thanks for asking", when he hasn't talked to his own freakin kids for 5 days and hasn't seen them since just after Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One that isn't right in the head.
And his prideful response to his daughter was "Oh I'm great thanks for asking."
Look at his response - does that sound to you like he really is doing "great"? If you were doing great and someone, anyone, greeted you, would you answer like that? IMHO him saying "I'm doing great, thanks for asking" is saying he ISN'T doing great.
Which means your PB IS doing great. Stay the course.
What kind of father says "Im great thanks for asking", when he hasn't talked to his own freakin kids for 5 days and hasn't seen them since just after Christmas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One that isn't right in the head.
And his prideful response to his daughter was "Oh I'm great thanks for asking."
Look at his response - does that sound to you like he really is doing "great"? If you were doing great and someone, anyone, greeted you, would you answer like that? IMHO him saying "I'm doing great, thanks for asking" is saying he ISN'T doing great.
Which means your PB IS doing great. Stay the course.
Hello Jaynepooh,
Yeah your probably right. True people say things like that usually to convince themselves and not the ones they are saying it to. But still what a poophead father! Will stay the course.
Okay feel better. Yes, had HOT HOT HOT water, and some Ella Fitzgerald really loud. No candles because its still day light here LOL. I think If I go buy some chocolate, it will be a perfect day. Did I mention I love chocolate with a burning passion. My H used to make funnies with the kids about me. He used to say one day Im going to come home and your mom will be passed out on the floor with chocolate dripping from her mouth and chocolate bars all around her and then they all would laugh including me. Ya know I don't know why I am remembering all these little stories lately. Anyways it was funny.
But I took this book in with me. I have been reading a little bit at a time. Okay the title is Healing the Heartbreak of Divorce by Rose Sweet. I didn't get it because I planned divorce so no worries, but it is a purely christian book that deals with letting go of things like rejection, anger, bitterness, grieving, loneliness, fear, and trust, things like that.
At the beginning of each chapter it starts with a love letter from God to you and at the end of each chapter it has a section that says me fear says this but my faith says this. I'm not divorced but it has little treasures in it that are helping me. I guess it mostly gets you through all the pain and really pushes you to give everything to God. So today I am angry, lucky me I opened it up today and I am on the Anger Chapter. Guess I'll be reading it right on time.
So today to feel better I think I am going to go buy some chocolate and you can all imagine the smile as I eat it.
I'll check back later, we'll see if he actually calls them tonight.
{{{{{hugs}}}}]] right to T2L,
I agree about DD17 contacting her father. I was doing the opposite trying to convince D15 to see her father and we were both wrong.
They are old enough to decide how they want to interact with these aliens. It breaks my heart see how inconsiderate they are with their own children. But it is their lose not ours. These kids are magnificant creatures and missing even a day is a shame. Shame on them.
Also not to steal the sitch..stop by mine..need help H served me with d papers today.
T2L, prayer helps. Directed prayer even more. My sister, my church and I were all praying that God would "break" my husband. I know that prayer to break him was heard because:
He started with his feet. You'll read about it in my thread. That part was a hoot, a miraculous hoot.
Pray what's on your heart.
T2L
PM,
OH dear Lord, I just finished reading your story. Yes I cried during the walk and his apology. I truly do not know how you made it, I am exhausted just reading it.
When did it start and when did it come to the start of recovery? How many months?
I can't believe you got him to go to church in fog. Mr. T2L would laugh my butt out the door at such a request. Thats mind boggling that he went.
I guess I keep feeling like my H is different and harder and he's not like everyone else. I really think that.
Big props to you.
Oh Yeah everyone please go back to Hope3343's thread her H filed on her and left papers in the mail box. She needs help and encouragement.
I guess I keep feeling like my H is different and harder and he's not like everyone else. I really think that.
He's really no different. Just a typical PITA WH.
He's really no different. Just a typical PITA WH.
PITA???
go on, do tell
acroynm - Pain in the [censored] (PITA)
Dark day as usual. H did not try and call DS10 but since DD17 contacted him she says he has been chatting with her a bit and sent her another picture of himself. Its really strange to me but he constantly takes pictures of himself with his cell phone and sends them to her.
I mean is he afraid he's gonna disappear or something.
LOL
Anyways, DS10 had a friend come over for a sleepover tonight. The mother of the friend stayed and chatted for a bit and she pretty much knows most of whats has been happening. Her H owns a locksmith business and he changed the locks right after Mr. T2L left and he did it for free.
Anyways she was well meaning and she's like I really think you need to move on. Of course she's not the only one who has said this. Many people including H's family has said, move on you'll be a hot commodity blah blah blah. They just don't get it. I know its there best attempt at helping you and I try not to hold it against them, but they have absolutely no idea what they are saying. They have no idea of how we feel or the pain I'm in.
Anyways she says to me tonight, He is being an a$s and destroying his kids and family you just need to let him go and move on. I am starting to feel like an a$s for even continuing on. Guess its pretty bad when you start to think what they are saying sounds good. Of course they all say go date, and I tell them all I can't. But most of them don't understand no matter what way you explain it. They justify it for me not understanding that my H walked out on me, he cut off his connection and love for me but I didn't. I just kinda have to nod.
I think in 3 1/2 more months I'm going to make a life decision if he has not come around. I think 1 year of discovery day is fair. I think I may cut my loses and try to live my life without him and forget about recovery, at least maritally. I am a person of closure and I am living opened right now, neither here nor there and that alone is taking a toll on me.
I know concentrate on me do things I love, but yet because of time, no closure and thoughts of him and the Sea Hag I am hurting and no amount of fun stuff can really make that go away.
G'night....
Anyways she was well meaning and she's like I really think you need to move on. Of course she's not the only one who has said this. Many people including H's family has said, move on you'll be a hot commodity blah blah blah.
This is when I say:
"I hear you, but I only have one chance to save my marriage and my family. I have all the time in the world to divorce him. The best thing for everybody in this family is to have me in love with DH and DH in love with me."
This is when I say:
"I hear you, but I only have one chance to save my marriage and my family. I have all the time in the world to divorce him.
What a great response!
{{{{{{{{T2L}}}}}}
I <heart> the above advice.
Whenever someone is giving advice, consider the source.
A lot of people say "if my H ever cheated- he'd be out the door!"
- but remember they have probably never really had to deal with this issue.
True, unless you have been there, you can't describe why you feel you want to stay, or why you left-- it is a descision that you need to make on your own.
Not that I think you need to even consider it at this point- you are still very early into your plan B.
My advice is to listen to the people who not only are well meaning, but have a first hand understanding of going through an A is like for a BS (or WS for that matter!).
Telling someone to "Move on" is a way for a concerned person <who sees you in pain>
thinks that this is the quickest way for you to recover and be happy.
Those who have been here know, there is no quick way to recover. All roads to recovery, yours (with or without H) are dusty, long, twisty and hidden by mountains and trees.-And FOG.
We all wish we had GPS, so that we could see the trail ahead - and the destination of our journey on a little screen.
But alas, that is for cars and people in the ordinary world. We, right now, don't live there.
BUT T2L ! Chin up! hiking boots on! Pack a lunch, pee now- it is going to be a long hike so you might as well as get started early! People here (and God) will walk with you.
Ready? Set?...G-- (oh well-- Im off to take a bath!
)
Well, H is behind my house at the park. He just called the home phone and left a message to DS10 that he will be back there to visit if he wants to come out. I new it just before he called as I looked out my window and noticed a work truck in the distance.
DD17 is at her 1st day working at the college bookstore. She called me on her break and said she loves it. She also told me that her dad called and wanted to visit since he was working in our city. She responded I'm working so I kinda expected to see the truck there.
DS10 is torn about going. He will not go because DD17 is not with him. He does not have trust in his dad anymore and does not like going alone. I told him its up to him and he said NO. One of DD17's girlfriends is here and offered to go walk him out but he still said no.
Back later, if anything to post.
So sorry your son doesn't feel comfortable visiting with his dad.
Maybe you can do something fun with DS.
Glad DD likes her job!!!!!!!!!!!!!
T2L, quick close the shades, put on your guerrilla gear, duck, hit the floor.
Your H should not just assume that S10 wants to see him. Very presumptive. If your son is uncomfortable, hopefully your car is parked in the garage.
Take your son and make your escape. Go somewhere fun while H plays by himself in the woods. Maybe a rattlesnake will be out there. too much.
Well DS10 came into my room and was coming unglued. He said he felt bad and was rolling around on my bed and half crying and he didn't know what to do. I asked him why he was so nervous he said he was he said he didn't know I said would you like to call him to talk to him he said no. Finally I say do you want DD17 friend to go tell him your not ready and he say yeah can you.
So DD17's friend said I will go out to him, because she knew him growing up with my kids, and I will tell him that Gabriel is nervous and not ready to visit.
So she comes back and says I told him Gabe didn't want to visit that he was upset about some kind of message, and his response is well he shouldn't have heard that, of course Not I shouldn't have said that. She said she asked him are you happy and he said well I don't know if I'm happy but it just didn't work out with her. WTF!!! You mean you walked out!
Anyways, DS10 felt better and now I am taking him bowling.
So sorry your DS is going through this. It is very hard for him.
Glad you are taking him bowling.
I forgot, is he involved in sports? That is a good outlet for boys his age.
{{{hugs}}}} glad you are taking the little guy out.
H is still in selfish mood that everyone is dying to see him. No regard to what it does to the kids.
Enjoy bowling and pretend who the pins are.
T2L - you really need a counselor who will protect your son - he does not want to hear bad stuff about you and he knows that if he goes alone, without his tough big sister to shut her dad up, Dad's going to wage war on his heart to try and destroy son's love for you - and your son doesn't want to be that battle ground.
It's making him physically and mentally ill to consider going with your WH - his wayward father.
I would love to see supervised visitation at this point if your son goes alone. And that your husband gets some very strong instruction from a judge about his treatment of his children!
Imagine - the indignity of intermediaries just getting ramped up to where now he has to SEE intermediaries if he wants to be around his son - and have Pep open a can of Whoopa** every time WH starts going off about you!
Imagine - the indignity of intermediaries just getting ramped up to where now he has to SEE intermediaries if he wants to be around his son - and have Pep open a can of Whoopa** every time WH starts going off about you!
I am a gentle lamb - what'cho'talkin'bout :twobyfour:
I would love to see supervised visitation at this point if your son goes alone. And that your husband gets some very strong instruction from a judge about his treatment of his children!
ITA!!
T2L - Just for you. (another poster who doesn't post much anymore sent me this to pass on to those who are hurting)
Bring the Rain
Pep - I got an instructional video for that can of WhoopA**.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/352175/how_to_free_air_horn/Next time he wants to unload on his son, and his son gives you that look, or hand cue, just blow!
PM - Wow, that is a nice video, very comforting.............
PM - Wow, that is a nice video, very comforting.............
Simba, my cat, enjoyed it
Dear God, well got back from bowling and grabbing a burger to settle in for the evening. Well apparently when H left this afternoon around 2:30 he must have stayed in the area. He is outside my stinking house.
He has called my son and left a message that he is out front if he wants to visit. Ok so son is again stressed out because he does not want to see dad because of the nasty message. But my son feels horrible for rejecting his dad so he bears that guilt too. I ask him if he wants to call he says no and then he says what if he comes to the door. I say I will simply answer and say you do not want to visit.
DS10 says mom i can't handle this why is he here again, I can't handle this I just want you guys back together(he hasn't said that in a really long time, since the 1st two months after dday) and for this to stop. UHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh! I just look at him and calmly say me to DS10 but I can't do anything about that. i ask him DS10 you can still see your dad just because were not together you know that right? He says yes. I say I don't want you to not see your dad because of me. If you says yes I say ok and If you say no to dad I say ok. Its what ever you want. Hes torn. He is truly upset about the nasty message on answering machine and yet he loves his dad but doesn't want to reject him and doesn't want to talk to him.
As of 6:45, DS10 peaked out the front window, he has been out there for about 20 minutes and DS10 says mom he is watching a movie on his laptop in his truck. My WS is in front yard waiting for DS10 to come out while watching a movie on his lap top.
DD17 just walked in 10 minutes ago and I snapped when she called out to me because I have been stressed out because the idiot has been in my front yard and I had DS10 stressing and when she called out to me I snapped and thought oh God great what?!?!? Usually she tries to get DS10 to go out. So I had to go apologize to DD17 who is now pissed off at me and says Im losing it. Then I say I am sorry I should not have snapped at you I have been stressed out with your brother because you dad has been out front watching TV in his car for the last 30 minutes. She did want to talk to me. I tried. She is out with friends. We usually are fine by morning. I feel horrible that I snapped at her. {{{{sigh}}}}
I ask her why is your dad still here he left at 2:30? She says he went to the Regan library for a while and then was hoping DS10 would come out to visit him. DD17 said oh and then he left. So wait 5 minutes and go home.
Oh Lord! What next.
My WH lost the plot today too.
It is the full moon, I swear it. Everytime it's a full moon he really does go loco.
I am sorry that your kids are so uncomfortable and that they are hurting too.
I am sorry that you are carrying the burden for all 3 of you and that your WH has not realised how easy it is for everything to change. You would think that you'd asked for the scientific impossible...
Bear down and breathe and pray. There will be a reason for this trial although it is far from visible at the moment. God would not have given this trial to you if he didn't know that you were ready for it and that the learning from it was what you needed!
Now, to off to start believing that myself...
A suggestion:
DS10 could tell his Dad about his anger.
For DS10's own benefit.
Speaking out when you are angry is a good life skill to learn.
He's about the right age.
Depression from feeling powerless is lessened when a person takes an action - like saying "I'm so mad at you for what you did."
If DS10 is not currently able to do this face to face - he could write Dad a letter.
poor kid
show this link to DS10
a friendship
My WH lost the plot today too.
It is the full moon, I swear it. Everytime it's a full moon he really does go loco.
I am sorry that your kids are so uncomfortable and that they are hurting too.
I am sorry that you are carrying the burden for all 3 of you and that your WH has not realised how easy it is for everything to change. You would think that you'd asked for the scientific impossible...
Bear down and breathe and pray. There will be a reason for this trial although it is far from visible at the moment. God would not have given this trial to you if he didn't know that you were ready for it and that the learning from it was what you needed!
Now, to off to start believing that myself...
2M@L
Thanks so much for popping in. Sometimes I really need to hear it in the middle of the battle. I wanna scream! I am hurting and trying to keep it together.
I have been running from prayer since the whole stepping down thing. I just feel so hurt over everything and I told the Lord I am hurt and can barely utter a prayer. Forgive me Lord, but I won't even try and lie to you.
Thanks for stopping by, hugs to all of us....
A suggestion:
DS10 could tell his Dad about his anger.
For DS10's own benefit.
Speaking out when you are angry is a good life skill to learn.
He's about the right age.
Depression from feeling powerless is lessened when a person takes an action - like saying "I'm so mad at you for what you did."
If DS10 is not currently able to do this face to face - he could write Dad a letter.
poor kid
show this link to DS10
a friendshipOk I am going to have him read this whole post then show him the link.
We have therapy assessment Monday at 2:30 at the place you recommended.
I guess tho after the 5 days no communication its good that H is trying.
I also sent out the door with DD17 at 2:30 the last few things I had here besides tools that was his. I sent his class ring, and a few watches and his dream journal. DD17 told him there is jewelry in there and your dream journal and he said I don't need all that. I wonder if he went to the Reagan library and read his own journal. It was a very precious thing to him.
{{{{T2L}}}]
you are a hostage in your own freakin house. Unbelievable. When your son did not come out -- he needed to leave. WTH. He is still trying to show you that he has the control. Your poor son -- he should not be forced to see his Dad because he decides to just "show up".
As for your DD17, I know you are feeling bad because you snapped at her. We are only human, breathe. Tomorrow things will look different.
You need to prepare so this does not happen again. Put together a plan for visitation or modify the one that you made.
Sorry you are going through this. You know my prayers are with you. take care buddy.
{{{{T2L}}}]
you are a hostage in your own freakin house. Unbelievable. When your son did not come out -- he needed to leave. WTH. He is still trying to show you that he has the control. Your poor son -- he should not be forced to see his Dad because he decides to just "show up".
As for your DD17, I know you are feeling bad because you snapped at her. We are only human, breathe. Tomorrow things will look different.
You need to prepare so this does not happen again. Put together a plan for visitation or modify the one that you made.
Sorry you are going through this. You know my prayers are with you. take care buddy.
I have a set in stone visitation, today is his day but DS10 just didnt want to visit. I let DS10 read what Pep just posted and asked him what he thought so he said tomorrow he will email his dad. I sure hope he lets it all out. I hear the raw truth but no one else. He has emailed his dad 2 other times in the last 8.5 months but he hasn't fully released. But I think it really helped reading what Pep posted. I said this is what my friend Pep says to you. The encouragement from someone else helped him. Odd, I have been trying to get him to email his dad and tell him but he would not but hearing it from someone else I guess gave him permission. So feel free to encourage DS10 and i will let him read them.
How are you doing hope?
Hi T2L-
My YS (then 14) had a hard time putting his thoughts into a letter or email, so I asked him if he wanted to dictate what he wanted to say to his dad. He did want that, and seemed relieved.
Part of it was that my YS needed to say/hear what he wanted to tell his dad, and then have a moment where I was able to ask him some clarifying questions about what he had just said. YS can get very tongue-tied when he feels strongly about something and he didn't want to get flustered and lose his words in the moment or (even worse) CRY in front of his dad.
I would then read what I had written for him so he could either agree with me, or tell me what he wanted changed. It also helped him sort out some of his feelings about everything, but in a "safe" way, because I wasn't "asking" him "how are you-what are you feeling?" It's always been harder for him to share his feelings (emotions) with me 'cuz I'm a girl. (OS is the complete opposite...go figure).
Good thing I had all those years of training with my twin bro. My YS is sooo much like him.
hi T2L,
the thing about "it didnt work out" and "not needing his things" these are pretty much the same things Flick said to me. I bet other BS's could say the same about their WS's.
Its still just babble.
I bet WH still looks like crap. Still isnt 'normal'. Shows no real sign of being the person he is, just showing the world the alien who has taken over him.
I know you are getting tired and worn down by this. You amaze me by your strength at keeping in your PB. I have read threads here by some very recovered BW's who never were as dark as you are right now. You are doing so well.
Hun, dont give up on this. Set you deadline that you need and stay the course. Run the good race. Know that YOU have tried EVERYTHING possible. There will never be a day when anyone at all, will look at you and say 'she didnt try, she gave up"
And you will be looked at as the amazing Godly, woman you are.
Hi T2L-
My YS (then 14) had a hard time putting his thoughts into a letter or email, so I asked him if he wanted to dictate what he wanted to say to his dad. He did want that, and seemed relieved.
Part of it was that my YS needed to say/hear what he wanted to tell his dad, and then have a moment where I was able to ask him some clarifying questions about what he had just said. YS can get very tongue-tied when he feels strongly about something and he didn't want to get flustered and lose his words in the moment or (even worse) CRY in front of his dad.
I would then read what I had written for him so he could either agree with me, or tell me what he wanted changed. It also helped him sort out some of his feelings about everything, but in a "safe" way, because I wasn't "asking" him "how are you-what are you feeling?" It's always been harder for him to share his feelings (emotions) with me 'cuz I'm a girl. (OS is the complete opposite...go figure).
Good thing I had all those years of training with my twin bro. My YS is sooo much like him.
Okay exactly that it exactly what happens to him. I ask him what he is feeling and he stutters and raises his voice and gets flustered and say i dont know mom its hard to explain. I try to get him to talk so he won't be like his dad, unable to communicate.
Okay so I can have him tell me what he wants to say and I can type it in the email. Previously he had done it but it was very short because he had to think and type and it was frustrating for him but I didn't think I should have anything to do with so I could say It was all DS10's own thoughts.
So I can have him dictate to me then right? And you say "safe" what is that? Sorry I just want to be sure when he writes it tomorrow its done correctly.
I set up an email address for him to use just for his dad.
BTW.... Happy 8 Weeks PB to me, whoo hooo, yipeee, hooray...sorry that darn sarcasm again.
hi T2L,
the thing about "it didnt work out" and "not needing his things" these are pretty much the same things Flick said to me. I bet other BS's could say the same about their WS's.
Its still just babble.
Hi T2L
When I said those things to Lil I was trying to convince myself that I didn't need or want my things, and I rationalised to myself that if any of my things were important that I could go and get new ones. IT WAS ALL RUBBISH! I wanted my things and at every oppertunity I would take the things that I couldn't replace or be without.
I reckon that WH is doing the same things as I did, I also reckon that he will (if he has not already) see the error of his ways and some time after that, when he gets the guts, he will tell you that he was wrong.
I'm running into the same problem with my kids trying to communicate with WH. However, my WH is a conflict avoider so he'd just as soon ignore the kids than hold vigil out in his truck.
As for venting, my DDs are in a text war with him. They're letting him know, with both barrels, that they do not approve of his cheating, lying, breaking of promises, moving out, being with OW (one DD referred to her as sl*t), etc. WH is replying "How dare you speak to me like this. I am your father. I love you and you need to respect me. This has nothing to do with you. It's between Holyheart and me. Blah, blah, blah. And we will talk about this next week." And then the text to me -- "There will be serious repercussions for their actions."
WTF? He moves out 2 weeks ago and has yet to see the kids. And what am I to do? I want to defend DDs, but I don't want to break Plan B and get in a pissing contest with WH over who's right here. Yes, kids should respect their parents, but in this sitation, how can they?
So I understand your little boy's stress. My DS17 has not spoken to WH in over a year. He cried when he learned of the A. His dad has always been his hero. Perhaps boys are more internal about the pain of their dad's A than teenage daughters. And boy, teenage girls these days can have such potty mouths. Shocker for WH's to hear the truth from their little girls. But will it break through the fog?
Hi T2L
When I said those things to Lil I was trying to convince myself that I didn't need or want my things, and I rationalized to myself that if any of my things were important that I could go and get new ones. IT WAS ALL RUBBISH! I wanted my things and at every oppertunity I would take the things that I couldn't replace or be without.
I reckon that WH is doing the same things as I did, I also reckon that he will (if he has not already) see the error of his ways and some time after that, when he gets the guts, he will tell you that he was wrong.
Hey Flick! Thanks for that. I just thought he didn't want them, but I didn't want them here. Good to hear it from the other perspective, it helps. I don't think he sees the error of his ways tho. hes way to busy being very mad at me to see anything but me-the cause of his misery. I hope he gets guts. I used to admire his strength but now I see he didn't have as much as I thought. My pastor said he has been blaming you the whole marriage and he's going to see that you were the strength to the family and now that you are no longer to blame eventually he will see it was never you.
Oh yeah when DD17 took the bad of stuff out to him and he said he didn't need it he also said, well if DS10 comes out he will feel better and DD17 said she told him well dad he needs a dad. H responds I am his dad, and DD17 says well he needs a dad at home and the fog man says well I don't get along with your mom(coulda fooled me, we got along great until Sea Hag entered in and during Plan A we got along so well he cheated on the OW 4 times a week- sure doesn't sound like not getting along to me) anyways DD17 says well how do you know you don't get along with mom you don't talk to her and his little entitled butt says "EXACTLY!" and DD17 walks away and says see ya next month and laughs and he makes up some lame excuse why he hasn't seen them since after Christmas.
I'm running into the same problem with my kids trying to communicate with WH. However, my WH is a conflict avoider so he'd just as soon ignore the kids than hold vigil out in his truck.
As for venting, my DDs are in a text war with him. They're letting him know, with both barrels, that they do not approve of his cheating, lying, breaking of promises, moving out, being with OW (one DD referred to her as sl*t), etc. WH is replying "How dare you speak to me like this. I am your father. I love you and you need to respect me. This has nothing to do with you. It's between Holyheart and me. Blah, blah, blah. And we will talk about this next week." And then the text to me -- "There will be serious repercussions for their actions."
WTF? He moves out 2 weeks ago and has yet to see the kids. And what am I to do? I want to defend DDs, but I don't want to break Plan B and get in a pissing contest with WH over who's right here. Yes, kids should respect their parents, but in this sitation, how can they?
So I understand your little boy's stress. My DS17 has not spoken to WH in over a year. He cried when he learned of the A. His dad has always been his hero. Perhaps boys are more internal about the pain of their dad's A than teenage daughters. And boy, teenage girls these days can have such potty mouths. Shocker for WH's to hear the truth from their little girls. But will it break through the fog?
Oh gosh NO do not break your Plan B he will think you are a liar and its all a game. This is not a game. Please don't.
Thats so funny you DD's are giving it to him. My DD17 was so God Awful and she let him have it up, down and inside out. It was uuuuuuugly! HE said the same stuff, listen here I am your father you still owe me respect and DD17 says really then I will divorce you, emancipate my self from you and change my name to moms maiden name and never speak to you again hows that?
The stick part of the plan is to not protect them from the consequences of their actions so I let her tell him what she wanted.
"How dare you speak to me like this. I am your father. I love you and you need to respect me
"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother," this is the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord." (Ephesians 6:1-4 RSV)
Goes both ways.
T2L-
What I meant by "safe" is that is was a "safe" way for him to be able to express himself for a couple of reasons. First, the words he dictated weren't meant for me, so that helped him be able to safely say them. Second, dictating what he wanted to say allowed my YS to "practice" stating his emotions in words, which was something he wasn't very good at doing. And, by being able to hear what he had dictated, he was able to clarify anything that might seem unclear or muddled. That took away his fear that he would get tongue-tied or too angry to actually say what he needed to.
By allowing him to dictate his words to me, I took some of the stress out of the task. I didn't add anything or take away anything.
Does that make sense?
Flick found another...
Col 3:21
Fathers, do not provoke your children, least they become discouraged.
Yes children should respect their parents/fathers, however God does not say this gives the fathers the right to walk all over the feelings of the children.
HH, must be the full moon.
My D15 has stopped talking to her father (1st time for 5 weeks and he only moved out on Oct 1).
She got mad at him after Christmas. We were away visiting family and D15 and d28 called their father and they said he sounded drunk. A couple days later D15 sends a text to father saying "you are an alcoholic and you better start admitting it, you were my hero now you are not". He calls her the next day and says they will talk when she comes back and she tells him "I do not want to talk to you since all you say is the same old lies", once again cuts him off at the knees.
Has not seen him since 12/22. All fog babble
T2L-
What I meant by "safe" is that is was a "safe" way for him to be able to express himself for a couple of reasons. First, the words he dictated weren't meant for me, so that helped him be able to safely say them. Second, dictating what he wanted to say allowed my YS to "practice" stating his emotions in words, which was something he wasn't very good at doing. And, by being able to hear what he had dictated, he was able to clarify anything that might seem unclear or muddled. That took away his fear that he would get tongue-tied or too angry to actually say what he needed to.
By allowing him to dictate his words to me, I took some of the stress out of the task. I didn't add anything or take away anything.
Does that make sense?
Yes it makes sense. DS10 get so flustered and tongue tied sometimes just trying to tell ME how he feels. He gets angry with me and gives up. I think that dictating will help alot. Obviously just the typing alone, but maybe he can just ramble. Now should I encourage him to say all this stuff he says to me but never says to his dad?
Some of the stuff he has said, like tonight, I sick of this mom I just want you and dad together I can't take this anymore, or the with last week he got so mad about the message he told me on our walk that I dont want to talk to dad, he shouldn't talk like that to you mom, he is being nice to my face and talking to my mom like that, I want to punch him in his face. He says lots of stuff but for some reason, I think part of him holds back because he is such a sweet boy he doesn't want to hurt his dad, and then part of it is fear. I ask him why don't you just tell your dad this stuff DS10, you tell me why don't you tell your dad? He says mom I never have talked to my dad like that I can't do it. Boy oh boy lucky him my little DS10 is usually in rare form with me LOL
I think you can encourage him to honestly share his feelings that he has with his dad in the email, but also let him know that the reason for this is because it is important to say the things we feel to the people we love-even if those things are painful, and not to be quiet out of fear. Keeping quiet adds to the pain.
But, I also think you should let your DS know that the goal isn't to get through to his dad. It might not seem to make any difference. It's about your DS not keeping it bottled up.
I think you can encourage him to honestly share his feelings that he has with his dad in the email, but also let him know that the reason for this is because it is important to say the things we feel to the people we love-even if those things are painful, and not to be quiet out of fear. Keeping quiet adds to the pain.
But, I also think you should let your DS know that the goal isn't to get through to his dad. It might not seem to make any difference. It's about your DS not keeping it bottled up.
I will let him read the above tomorrow before we begin. Thanks so much for the help.
This is a reality.Kids hate the break up of their family. ESPECIALLY if their family was a functional & happy family before adultery broke up their parents.
In the
fogged out brain of the
recto-cranial aliens - this particular reality comes as a COMPLETE SHOCK!
The dumb :crosseyedcrazy: heads
cannot believe their kids aren't "happy because mommie/daddy are finally happy".
The adultery partners LIE to each other saying dumb things like:
the kids will be happier once this is settled
the kids will love you SeaHag, once they get to know you
kids are resilient
kids will surviveand they actually think adultery and the break up of the family is
"GOOD FOR THE KIDS" :RollieEyes:
(I'm not kidding - almost universally the adultery-stricken spew this garbage to each other in order to avoid the recto-cranial extraction procedure)
So - the REALITY of their kid's pain and horror and grief becomes the fault of the FAITHFUL PARENT (and added bonus) the fault of the child
And the hard-headed amongst the aliens must double up their ugly lies to themselves to justify what they are DOING to their kids.
The INCREASE of fog-babble at this time indicates a
burning truth trying to force it's way to the frontal lobe of the alien's brain - and the alien MUST make efforts to ignore reality - fog must be doubled - trippled - lest unsettling reality take over their consciousness.
They are very messed up at this time.
The further the dumb :crosseyedcrazy: heads gets from reality - there is an ever increasing strain on the adultery romance.
It creates a
disparity of sacrifice this is an impressive description The result of the alien's increased efforts to ignore the damage THEY HAVE inflicted upon their CHILDREN is also damaging to the marriage recovery prospects .....
NOTHING increases the
hemorrhaging of the BETRAYED spouses' love bank faster than the dumb :crosseyedcrazy:head WS's ability to inflict pain upon the children. NOTHING!
Added burden for the custodial faithful parent:
They are the ones dealing with the pain & the displaced anger/rage.
Expect your hurting children to act out against you, the FAITHFUL parent
... "not fair' ... but also a reality one must deal with.
.... so
my advice is
encourage your children to find their voice (in the best way they can at the time)
Let them speak their hurt/anger directly to the alien. (unless it is dangerous)
Do not encourage children to suffer in silence.
Get a punching bag and have at it.
Wrap your arms around your child (especially when they are acting out against the "safe parent" - YOU-)
and say to him her:
It's NOT your faultTell them this every day
every day
every day
Wow... thank you for saying so well what I know and what I wish every WS understood.
This is a reality.Kids hate the break up of their family. ESPECIALLY if their family was a functional & happy family before adultery broke up their parents.
In the
fogged out brain of the
recto-cranial aliens - this particular reality comes as a COMPLETE SHOCK!
The dumb :crosseyedcrazy: heads
cannot believe their kids aren't "happy because mommie/daddy are finally happy".
The adultery partners LIE to each other saying dumb things like:
the kids will be happier once this is settled
the kids will love you SeaHag, once they get to know you
kids are resilient
kids will surviveand they actually think adultery and the break up of the family is
"GOOD FOR THE KIDS" :RollieEyes:
(I'm not kidding - almost universally the adultery-stricken spew this garbage to each other in order to avoid the recto-cranial extraction procedure)
So - the REALITY of their kid's pain and horror and grief becomes the fault of the FAITHFUL PARENT (and added bonus) the fault of the child
And the hard-headed amongst the aliens must double up their ugly lies to themselves to justify what they are DOING to their kids.
The INCREASE of fog-babble at this time indicates a
burning truth trying to force it's way to the frontal lobe of the alien's brain - and the alien MUST make efforts to ignore reality - fog must be doubled - trippled - lest unsettling reality take over their consciousness.
They are very messed up at this time.
The further the dumb :crosseyedcrazy: heads gets from reality - there is an ever increasing strain on the adultery romance.
It creates a
disparity of sacrifice this is an impressive description The result of the alien's increased efforts to ignore the damage THEY HAVE inflicted upon their CHILDREN is also damaging to the marriage recovery prospects .....
NOTHING increases the
hemorrhaging of the BETRAYED spouses' love bank faster than the dumb :crosseyedcrazy:head WS's ability to inflict pain upon the children. NOTHING!
Added burden for the custodial faithful parent:
They are the ones dealing with the pain & the displaced anger/rage.
Expect your hurting children to act out against you, the FAITHFUL parent
... "not fair' ... but also a reality one must deal with.
.... so
my advice is
encourage your children to find their voice (in the best way they can at the time)
Let them speak their hurt/anger directly to the alien. (unless it is dangerous)
Do not encourage children to suffer in silence.
Get a punching bag and have at it.
Wrap your arms around your child (especially when they are acting out against the "safe parent" - YOU-)
and say to him her:
It's NOT your faultTell them this every day
every day
every day
Pep, that was an incredible post. I am in tears. I lived that. tst is here with me reading...crying, too.
It's just all so unbelievable...that we were there.
Pep, tst says that should be on the notable posts. It really hit him...stuff he already knew, but summed up so well.
Okay DS10 dictated to me the email. I asked him if he would like to hit the send button and he said yes he grabbed the mouse and clicked send and said now sending to idiot! I just looked at him and grinned. I had to direct him a little as he wanted to say alot of names about the Sea Hag so I told him lets just talk to dad. I just asked him how he feels and he smiles really big and he says i feel better mom i had to much of that inside me. He also asked me to post it to you all, I hope that is okay. So here is letter from DS10 to dad.....
dad,
please read my whole letter dont skip any of it.i am really upset that i heard that message that you sent mom and do you really think i wouldnt hear that message. how can you talk to mom that way.you are nice to my face and you are mean to my mom behind my back. i dont want to visit because i am angry at you. DD17 friend went out there and said DS10 is really upset but then you come back and say do you want to visit. do you think i don't miss you?how can you do this to us.Im sick of it, why dont you just leave that fatty weany.how can anyone ever look at her.she is a sickening.i hate her so much.i never want to see her or i wuold run away from you.what you did to our family you think is no big deal.its just horrible.i feel sad that i have no dad at my home.when you were here it was more different than what your doing now.i feel embarrased that you are not here.i think its wrong and when i am older i am not going to do that because i am not stupid.i hope you are not having fun over there.i want you to come home already i have been waiting a long time and its almost a year.our family was a great family until you just scr*wed it.do you think i am not there at our visits when you say stuff about mom out loud that i dont like?you practically ruined my life.and i also want to tell you i dont like grandma because she was mean to my sister and she thought i was stupid and made me sleep in the hallway at her boyfriends house and it was dark and scary and she did not give a room to sleep in.she can not talk to me unless she says sorry to everyone in whole family.unlce T uncle G aunt H aunt N uncle W auntie J.i feel like visiting you is odd because you should be living here with our family.a real dad stays with there family and doesnt look at another girl but stays with there family and looks at your wife.my real dad used to be happy until this happened.its just rediculous.just come home and be a family.can you fix this for me.if not its just not going to work.if you marry that hag i will never talk to you again.hope she reads this too.i feel so happy that i am letting this out right now.i dont like telling stuff to your face because ive never talked to you that way before.you are the one that is making me mad. stop trying to make mom feel bad shes had enough and ive had enough.when you call me and i answer that will be the next time we visit.if you think my mom is trying to stop me from talking to you that is wrong because she wouldn never do that.she would be there for you everytime.she does not stop me from visiting you.yesterday when you were out there when you called she asked me 12 times are you sure you dont want to visit your dad and felt mad when she keeps on asking me.please stop talking to my mom like that.once again if you dont fix this i wont be your pally man.i dont know what else to say goodby
DS10
If that doesn't sock your WH where it hurts I don't think anything will.
Your DS must feel loads lighter and I want to congratulate him for letting the words flow and being really brave to say how he feels to his dad. It will be hard for his dad to read, but it is totally the right thing to do.
T2L, how did you hold up? It must have been a challenge NOT to edit the seahag parts out. It must have felt good for you to give your son that release too. Maybe your son will soon have the courage to keep it up in a journal.
I hope that your WH sees the light before it goes out completely.
Out of the mouth of babes. I just read it to D15. It was such a heartfelt e-mail and I pray that your H will "get it"
Your son is to be proud of.
What a spectacular email from your DS10.
The feelings he's having would be difficult for an adult to articulate, and he did such a magnificent job. He expressed his feelings clearly and honestly, without resorting to name calling (well except for the fatty weany but that was just WAY too good to omit!) and senseless provocation.
He should be very proud of himself.
Agreed. Tell your son that I am very VERY proud of him!
I told him all you have said so far. We went into the kitchen after wards and i said so you feel better and he says yeah mom i don't feel so stiff. LOL I understood.
I am not sure that it will even touch WS but it matters not seeing the smile and hearing my son say I don't feel so stiff.
And I didn't remove hag from DS10's letter. DS10 actually used hag because our whole family has used the term Sea Hag, even WS-we would call weird people Sea Hags and then the 4 of us would burst into laughter, its just one of those funny family things I guess. So it only seemed fitting I called the OW the Sea Hag since WS was the 1st person to bring this term to the family. He was funny like that. Had funny sayings for everything.
Anyways dark PB day. Took kids to Griffith Park Laserium today. Its a really neat place and the Hollywood sign is right behind it so, it was fun. The weather was awesome, about 75-80 in the dead of winter LOL. I love southern California.
Anyways, oh H texted me today about finances IM's so watch your email tomorrow. No worries I didn't respond. Actually didn't even get it til an hour after and just looked at it and tucked it in my purse and enjoy the day trip.
Gotta tuck in DS10. Kinda wish DD17 would now send that letter y'all put on her thread. Might be nice for him to hear from them both. I did mention it to her but she doesn't seem very happy about the idea so I don't push it.
Just tucked in DS10 a bit ago(still sleeping in my bed).
We pray and he bear hugs me and makes me rub his back(mom's totally wrapped around his finger LOL) and then he turns over and I am looking into his face and he says mom do you think that dad will come home now because of my letter and his eyes well up just a bit. I respond well DS10 how do you feel do you feel better because you wrote it? He says yes and I say well then that's why I had you write it. The letter was for you to tell how you feel and to get it off of your heart right? And he says yes.
Then he says well do you think it will make him change his mind and I say son, that is not the daddy we know, that's not him anymore so I don't think that it will change his mind but we can hope and pray. He says I want him to come home and I say so do I son. Then he says well what about being his pally man? I guess that's something that him and his dad shared and i didn't even know about it until he had me type it
So I say well what If I could be your pally girl and we laugh. I say don't worry son, this is not your fault so don't worry.
{{{{Sigh}}} That's the hard stuff right there. I hate to put a damper on his hope but I will not give him false hope since we already had 1 false recovery 2 weeks after dday before I found SAA. Plus you figure to DS10 having his parents together during PA and then gone was like another false hope for him. So that's why I paint a picture that is accurate as i can for him.
Hard stuff
you must know ...
all our hearts felt a collective pain when we read "pally man"
T2L-
It is tough stuff, but you've taught your DS a valuable lesson about not keeping his emotions bottled up. Wow! He had way more words than my YS. He did FANTASTIC! I think my YS managed a short paragraph.
BTW- my OS read your DD's thread when he was home on winter break from college. He was very impressed with her "guts" (he's in Army ROTC so that's a compliment). He took on his dad through text message after D-day when he was 17.
T2L, you have handled this situation with such strength and wisdom.
I think your response to your son was right on. Like someone said earlier (Pep or JT, I think), DS needs to know the purpose of the letter was to help HIM, not get dad to change his mind. I think you explained it beautifully to your son. He may need to have that reinforced a few times more before it really sinks in.
Your son is learning valuable life lessons right now (as much as we want to protect them from it). He is experiencing how healthy it is to express his feelings to someone who is hurting him. You have taught him how to do that in a healthy way. I had one son who raged every day when tst was done, just like Pep described in her post above...lashed out at me, all the while I tried to hold him close and tell him it's not your fault and I am not leaving no matter how angry you get at me. I wish I would have thought about him writing this type of letter. But I don't know if he would have. He kept telling me he wasn't mad at daddy, I'm mad at you mommy...you're the one here (I never could figure out how to respond to that one). He didn't want ANYONE "in"; he didn't want ANYONE to hurt him again.
You children are blessed to have you.
I think they know that, though.
If your WS defogs and has Godly sorrow, all these relationships will be healed and restored in an awesome way that only God can do.
And your family will be a testimony of God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, healing, and restoration. And your children will understand what it means to sin, fall into darkness, repent and be restored. They will have seen it first hand.
Hold on, T2L. This battle is no where near over.
T2L, your son is a strong boy. I know these WAS are in a fog but it is so screwed up that they cannot find their way out to see their kid's pain. I too was welling about "pally". My D15 and H used to kid each other all the time and my H would say "you know I am your hero right", and there would be all kinds of roughhousing, and just love and laughter. When all this happened D15 texted him and said you are not my hero anymore. But a couple of weeks ago he texts her and says "you are my hero". WTH.
My prayers are with you.
Like your DS, my DD has written lengthy text messages and emails to WH. DD says she will never give up on him. One of her messages said that she knows God is testing him and to turn around and run back to God and his family. In return, WH acknowledges the messages and says "time will heal all."
Sadly, in the WS's warped fog, they do not see the beauty of these simple words. Beauty in that they are heartfelt and true. And POWS is still willing to eat their own young so they can mate with POSOW. How cold.
I'm curious about exposure. Does anyone know who has the best chance of getting through to WS? Yes, God is first. And yes, we BS's are last. But who is most likely to get through the fog? Kids? Parents? Close friends?
When my WH walked out again on me and the kids, and I overheard him trying to explain this to DD, I thought to myself "I'd rather have someone reach in my chest and rip out my lung than tell my DD that I was leaving again to be with OW." Is that just a mom thing? Still can't believe how WS's think that this is just something between mom and dad and has nothing to do with the kids.
When my dad left, he drove up to the gas station my brother was working at, didn't even get out of the car, told him he was moving out (total shock to us kids), and drove away. My brother locked himself in the station bathroom and freaked out; they couldn't get him out for 4 or 5 hours. And he was 15!
Oh my gosh, Cat. How sad and insensitive. Who knew that once amazing Dads and Moms could turn around and inflict such tremendous pain on their offsprings. You'd think the guilt alone would keep the words from ever leaving their mouths. But in my sitch, it seems like the more times WH says the words, the more he believes them.
holyheart, I agree with your post, can't believe the WS will inflict such pain not just on us but on the children that are also left behind.
When I told my family that H had left me their first reaction was what about D15? He and her were close and she was the apple of his eye? They could not understand how he would do this. But because of the fog my H said "that D15 would be made for awhile but she will get over it and come to my apt and go swimmng and have picnics?" He truly believe it. Even after D15 stopped talking to him he still thinks she will be fine. That is because the OW is still feeding him the pack of lies saying that the kids in time will get over it. I commend your child texting your H with the real truth even if they still ignore the message.
I agree that OW are feeding our WH with stories to ease their guilt. OW has been divorced twice and has 3 kids by the two different daddies. But she fails to recognize that her kids were babies when she divorced their dads (due to - gasp! - infidelity), that she initiated both divorces, and she took each hubby financially to the cleaners.
That's what's scares me. OW is a divorce pro and I'm a novice. OW has been a victim of infidelity, yet she's willing to break up my family doing the same thing. She plays with my WH's emotions -- threatening suicide when he's broken up with her.
She cares nothing about my kids and their pain of losing their dad. She feeds WH with such bull, and he buys into it. She actually had the nerve to tell me what an amazing dad he is (how would she know?), and she complained that I was making him feel guilty by "using the kids against him." How can I use the kids against him? They are OUR kids. Their dad is having an A, has walked out on us, and is with her.
But she said she has no intention of being a stepmom to my kids. And WH has said he has no intention of being a stepdad to her kids. What a relationship! No parental involvement planned from either side. Now is that reality?
IM's check your Inbox Please.
If your WS defogs and has Godly sorrow, all these relationships will be healed and restored in an awesome way that only God can do.
And your family will be a testimony of God's love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, healing, and restoration. And your children will understand what it means to sin, fall into darkness, repent and be restored. They will have seen it first hand.
Hold on, T2L. This battle is no where near over.
IF, I hate that darn "IF". But try to stay neutral and guarded because of my lovely friend Believer who told me constantly NO EXPECTATIONS. That saved me a million times over BTW.
I feel like I am in a losing battle. I believe he is trying to reach out to the kids but really he could careless about me. I mean his whole "it didn't work out" comment to DD17' friend the other day kinda says a lot. I mean I feel its a lame comment as marriage is not a try on thing. LOL
I still am praying, chase him, deliver his soul and emotions, make your self real to him, and squeeze everything out of him Lord that is not of you. Remind him and bring to the front of his mind of every good memory and all the love our family had. I declare over him that he loves only his wife T2L and to return to the wife of your youth. And then I come against that nasty little relationship and speak dissolution, repentance, conviction, and strife to come over it and consume it and that the very seed of deception that it was sown in to reap back into it. And that's only the beginning....LOL
Anyways, still holding...Have felt ok the last few days. Lots going on but I feel, at least for the last 2 days, calm.
That next morning after I snapped at DD17 I came to her and hugged her and said I am so sorry for snapping at you. She said I know mom it caught me off guard but its okay. I responded to her NO it is never okay and you mean way too much to me to snap at you like that and I am very sorry. She accepted my apology and we are fine. We have always been able to get over stuff pretty quickly. H was always amazed how we can snap at each other and then in the next 5 minutes converse.
Anyways, off to do tons of chores. I was lazy over the weekend and did nothing, which for me is HUGE as H has high domestic needs and I had to have everything always perfect. So i have double duty today.
H made no contact with the kids, wrote it in the journal.
Hey BTW I know the thread gets read a lot so I wanted to say to all the BS, get a spiral bound note book, brand new no pages torn out. This can be used as a legal document in court, should you have to go. Write down everything, BUT with NO opinions just facts like: H called kids, H had no contact with kids, H did not visit on scheduled had, H made DS10 watch a scary movie, H left nasty message on machine, H was drinking around kids and using profanities and kids were upset...You get the idea-ONLY facts. Just in case you need this for custody reasons you will need to prove that this spouse did not make any effort towards the kids.
Now write in ink with NO spaces in between entries as the courts will think you left space so you could go back and enter in more information. Also Ink because they want to be sure you don't erase and NO pages ripped out as they will think you rewrote things. I learned a lot of this when I took in foster kids. Start your journal now and write in it everyday. I have mine started from the beginning although I did not write in it during PA.
Excellent advice about the journal. I will start one today. Question? Do you ask your kids each night if WH phoned or text them?
And if I have notes from throughout the year, but not daily stuff, can I start off with that? Or do I need to start from a day and make sure I write something in that each day? Hate to be too anal, but hate to miss what may be important since if WH files I plan on going for 100% custody.
I suggest writing down what you have and then becoming more detailed from this point.
I logged all text messages, emails, IM's, phone calls, visits...
I figured I would rather have too much info than not enough
As for the journal, my lawyer told me to get a daily planner and record something every day.
Well I am anal when it comes to recording and I will do everything in my power to keep my son from having weekends with dad and the Sea Hag.
I started a month after Dday, so I used phone records and texts and everything I could remember and wrote it all down. And then wrote everyday. yes I asked DD17 if she received texts and If he called DS10 at house phone I wrote time and how long call lasted and what was said If it was unhealthy and if kids were upset about the call I would include that. I am in PB so I have IM's that have emailed him a set in stone schedule that I felt would be easiest for H to drive the hour and see them so If he shows up for it I log it and if he does not i log it. I would encourage you if you have not already to get a visitation schedule set in stone as it is unreasonable to be waiting around all day and not fair to the kids. It is easier for the kids to know when to expect their father. BTW don't expect your H to be happy about it either as his entitlement will think he should call the shots. Sorry you lost that right buddy, I am the head of household now.
If you can remember back a few weeks then go ahead otherwise start today. Get a visitation schedule going and a time by when he should call them in the evening. My H must call by 8:15 so i can get DS10 in bed by 8:30 -8:45. Until you have this set it will be hard to show his effort towards the kids. i would encourage you to choose days that are fair, this is my reason and I could be wrong, but I can tell a judge that I chose days that are the easiest and best for H and not myself and he still make no effort which is going to look even worse for him.
Excellent advice about the journal. I will start one today. Question? Do you ask your kids each night if WH phoned or text them?
And if I have notes from throughout the year, but not daily stuff, can I start off with that? Or do I need to start from a day and make sure I write something in that each day? Hate to be too anal, but hate to miss what may be important since if WH files I plan on going for 100% custody.
I would say you can start by having writing some specific things concerning the kids if you want. Remember no feelings, the court does not care only hard FACTS.
I'm sure you can probably at least start on the past Friday as it won't be hard for you to remember the weekend.
Again things like: improper conversation or parent bashing, missed visitation days, no calls, when kids are very upset due to improper conversation, drinking during visits then driving home, etc etc.
We have no visitation schedule. In fact, we've never had one during this whole "back and forth, living at home or living with OW" year.
My kids are teenagers (all in high school). They all have cell phones and can talk or text their dad whenever they want. During this last move out, none want to see him. In fact, since D-day, DS and WH have not spoken at all. I think it's a slim chance at this point that DS and WH will ever get back any relationship which is sad, especially since WH knew exactly what DS needed to heal and WH refused to comply.
DDs have tried to keep the relationship alive between them even when WH was living somewhere else. Since I never told them that WH was living with POSOW and her kids, they just accepted that dad was living with a friend and I let the lie go. But this time, I'm not protecting him or lying for him. And while I think he's living with OW again, I do not know. And since I'm in Plan B and trying to stay out of the drama, I'm not spying to find out.
So -- should I set up a schedule and let him know when he can see the kids? Or do I just leave it alone and document that he is not seeing the kids even with an "open invitation"? It's been 15 days since he's seen the kids.
We have no visitation schedule. In fact, we've never had one during this whole "back and forth, living at home or living with OW" year.
My kids are teenagers (all in high school). They all have cell phones and can talk or text their dad whenever they want. During this last move out, none want to see him. In fact, since D-day, DS and WH have not spoken at all. I think it's a slim chance at this point that DS and WH will ever get back any relationship which is sad, especially since WH knew exactly what DS needed to heal and WH refused to comply.
DDs have tried to keep the relationship alive between them even when WH was living somewhere else. Since I never told them that WH was living with POSOW and her kids, they just accepted that dad was living with a friend and I let the lie go. But this time, I'm not protecting him or lying for him. And while I think he's living with OW again, I do not know. And since I'm in Plan B and trying to stay out of the drama, I'm not spying to find out.
So -- should I set up a schedule and let him know when he can see the kids? Or do I just leave it alone and document that he is not seeing the kids even with an "open invitation"? It's been 15 days since he's seen the kids.
VET's what do you think? Although her kids are older should she have a set schedule for visitation so she can start documenting?
IMHO, it seems easier than having everyone "on call" but all your children are older so I would have to ask the VETS to see what they think.
Nuttin' new in the T2L house hold. Dark PB day, no contact, sight or sound of lil old me for over 2months.
No call to DS10 from H and no visit on scheduled day. DD17 did however contact him on her own. I Did offer to DS10 that he could call his dad if he would like but he did not want to.
DS10 seems fine considering. He has asked again if I thought his letter would make daddy come home and I again said no I don't think so, that's not daddy anymore and then remind him he wrote it to feel better for himself. He keeps hoping.
Feeling calm today, but still that bit of sorrow in the bottom of my heart. Been focusing on turning my thoughts quickly when I feel sad. It helps.
It feels like its been forever. Everyday feels like a thousand years, I'm sure you all know what I mean.
The 2nd week of February last year was the last time my real H was to be seen. He disappeared the 3rd week of Feb. That's when EA went PA. From that time on the angry monster was horribly mean to me until dday on April 23rd. I do miss my REAL H.
Funny the month before he told me I would look at him with tears in my eyes because he was so cold and I would say please tell my H to come home. It only made him angrier. Do wish my real H would come home.
I'm off to bed, G'night y'all.
I think you should stick to a settled visitation plan, because it looks on paper like you're trying to get him access to the kids. CYA, ya know?
Is there something DS10 has wanted to do but never started? Some sport or something he'd like to learn how to do, like an instrument? I really think he needs to see some positive progress in his life.
I think you should stick to a settled visitation plan, because it looks on paper like you're trying to get him access to the kids. CYA, ya know?
Is there something DS10 has wanted to do but never started? Some sport or something he'd like to learn how to do, like an instrument? I really think he needs to see some positive progress in his life.
Yes DS10 and I have looked at a few things he is thinking of trying. Football is over until fall of this year so we wanted to find something in the mean time.
We are looking into a grappling martial arts or possibly Krav Maga which looks really cool. I had him look at the Parks and Rec guide for our city and he has circle a few things he's interested in. So yes we are looking.
Just watching that makes me tired.
Thank goodness for young'uns...they keep us young.
Hey, if he decides to to martial arts see if they have any classes where kids and adults can both take, or if they have any back-to-back where one is for kids and one for adults.
My daughter wanted to do martial arts and we found a taekwondo studio that offered mixed classes on Saturdays and back-to-back classes (youth then adult) a couple of nights a week. So I did taekwondo too... it was so much better than sitting around in the waiting area flipping through ancient magazines or trying to read a great paperback while other Moms are trying to chat with you. Ugh.
You'd be surprised how great martial arts is for giving you focus, a goal, motivation, and confidence. It was really fun!
So this morning DS10 is being a stinker about his school work and having a less than lovely attitude. I tell him that if doesn't change his attitude that I will not be taking him to trade his video game in. So he says, "your a bad mom and DD17 will be a better mom than you" to which I respond to your room, i will meet you there you have just received 1 spanking.
Now I give spanking's on rare occasions, mostly when boundaries are crossed badly and DS10 has been long over due. I have let some of the disrespect go because of all that has happened but I do not want to over compensate to the effect that I spare the rod and spoil the child. Even DD17 has questioned why I am allowing him to be so disrespectful. So He gets his 1 spanking and I tell him when you are calm I would like you to come out of your room and apologize and tell me why you are apologizing.
So he comes out about an hour later since he feel asleep and we meet in my room. I say DS10 you have hurt my feelings. I am a good mom and I don't deserve what you have said to me. DS10 is there anything you would like to say. He says I am sorry mom and I ask him why and he says for saying you are a bad mom. I ask him, do you believe that I am a bad mom and he says, NO.
I say I forgive you son now come give me a hug. So he plops down on my lap(mind you he is huge, he weighs as much as me and looks me in my face) and I say DS10 whats going on? He begins to weep and say I miss my dad. I say would you like to call him and he says no. At this point he is sobbing on mommas lap while I am bear hugging him. He asks me why is it so hard for him to leave the Sea Hag mom? I say IDK son.
Okay not sure if this was okay to do, but this whole find your voice thing has started a spark in him. He says can I email him again and ask dad and I say sure. But just to be sure that I wasn't being accused of the idea I called in DD17 to my room and she see's DS10 upset so I tell her that DS10 is upset and he wants to write another email, I just want you to be witness. She says ok no problem and encourages her brother to write it.
DS10 sent another email to his dad. Is this too much? I didn't want to say no because he is starting to communicate where as before he was petrified and refused. Here is his email below.
dad,
i am crying.why is it so hard for you to leave Sea Hag?i am hurting and i am upset because i dont know why you are doing this.write me back and tell me why.
I guess he said write me back because he has been asking for 2 days if his dad responded to his 1st email. Then he woke up this morning and says he had a dream. He said I dreamed that dad mailed all the credit cards in his wallet to you and you opened it and wondered why he did that and then came around the corner and said, it was hard but I had to do it(DS10 said it meant he was coming home).
Anyways that was my day. I have give DS10 a second chance to buckle down finish his class work and we will go to the video game store.
Hey T2L {{{hugs}}}},
I love the easy access of texting and e-mails but sometimes you miss the emotion of speaking to that person. You don't really get their true reaction.
Even though you told your son "no expectations", in his mind there are definitely strong expectations. He is probably trying to figure out in his young mind why Daddy did not come running home. (All of us on the board would have run, leaped, sprinted after reading his e-mail but this is the unfog world). I know with my D15, sometimes she thinks she has the power to rule her father (she doesn't) but it is a disappointment when he does not react to her texts or just ignoring him.
They are babies inside their young soul. They want it all back and it is frustrating that we cannot give it to them.
If he gets upset again, instead of text/emails, I would encourage him to pick up that phone and talk to his father and let his father deal with the true pain instead of something he could ignore in his fog babble. H might think you are putting your son up to this (your not) and justify why he is not calling back.
Take care...
T2L, IMO, you are handling things with your son perfectly. You have given a bit of grace to him considering his suffering, but are holding him accountable when he crosses a line. He needs that.
I would suggest you let DS make the call on when and how he communicates with his dad. Remember, let their relationship be theirs, and you support him through what he needs to do. If he is most comfortable with email right now, let him email any day that he wants to.
You really are doing great!
"The joy comes in the morning."
H called DS10 tonight and left a message saying he got DS10's emails and he has a letter written out but that his employers wireless communications have been down and he has not been able to respond but he has a letter for him.
I am afraid. What will it say? What stupid excuse will he give DS10? I told DS10 to not get his hopes up and I warned him that he may not get the answer he wants but that he did it so he could get it off his chest.
He sounded better but I am sure, it will be the same crap. I am sure it will be the "it didn't work out", "I can be a better father when I'm not with your mom", or what every stupid thing he thinks my son may buy. I mean really what can you say to those emails? I guess we will know in the next day or so.
So tell me if he gives those excuses what or how do I respond or explain them to DS10? I can't really say " yeah DS10 it didn't work out" because marriage is not a try on. I can't really say he will be a better father or dad because he is out of the home.
I am more than 90% sure he is getting counsel from those who are supporting him in this so the letter will more than likely be more than what my H could write. They will give him all the elaborate freaking liberal bull cr@p to make it okay to a 10 year old. I will know immediately if he wrote it as he has a hard time expressing himself.
And then there is the other part of me that thinks there's no hope. I mean I've been in this stupid Plan B for over 2 months now and NO signs of nothing! Nothing, nothing, nothing! What if he is darn happy with the Sea Hag? I mean there is that possibility. I wasn't perfect, but I was a decent wife. Had a few things, but I tried to darn hard and he was never "fully" happy or content.
I am worried. I'm pretty sure this letter is gonna be crap and now my son has to hear the EXCUSES. I don't want my son to believe the EXCUSES!
If it's that bad, we can always do a translation for him.
If it's that bad, we can always do a translation for him.
I'm sure it won't be bad as in hurtful to DS10 in a violent way. His message sounded very nice to DS10. I just don't want my son hearing justifications for adultery and liberal reasons for his departure and absence from the family.
Most of world puts a stupid red bow on these things and makes even adultery sound like a freaking fairytale that we all may want to be a part of too, ya know what i mean? They put a fluffy mushy gushy spin on it and expect us to go "ouuuu and ahhhh" and be romantically taken away in bliss over there lame excuse. I don't want my child doing that.
I do want to read it with him and be here to explain things to him as his mother. When i tucked him in tonight i explained to him that it may not be what he wants to hear but that I am proud of him for speaking his mind. I also told him that my friends on MB might be able to talk to him as well. So Neak I may take you up on that.
So can DS10 respond to him if he does not like the answers or is that pointless and damaging to him or should he again speak his mind. The thing is when your 10, your young and slightly impressionable but you are also NOT stupid and lies don't usually fly to well.
And truly I am worried to hear it myself. What if I read this and it sounds so done. I really just want to give up! Really I do. I can see no light at the end right now, i see no victory, what I see is defeat. Isn't that horrible. I cannot see him coming home. He thinks in his mind that I need to change and its my fault and if he really believes that not even a PB can change that. I am sick of this i really am.
I know stay busy, more puzzles, memorize proverbs in braille, got it got it.... still feel like quitting.
Can you hear the ticking of the clock? With each tick my love bank drains just a bit and even a PB can't stop time. Don't think it matters anyways, I can't see him come home not even for kids. Too much pride just like his mother. That woman will go to her grave like that.
And to top it off my H apologized to his mother for all the smack he talked about her. He apologized to this woman who was a horrible mother, has had strained relationships with all her kids, i could go on and on. But I was 100X the woman she was to him and he apologizes to her WTH!
IM JUST SICK OF THIS!!!!! I see no end in sight. Goal 3 months and 10 days I will have reached 1 year of dday. That's the day that I am making a decision even if only in my heart. Why wait for someone you love when they may never turn, be humbled and love you back. Sounds like self inflicted abuse to me.
Sorry for the rotten attitude.
No you don't have the rotten attitude -- he does.
Will keep you in my prayers tonight. Remember as you tell me "no expectations".
Wait till the letter comes and see what he says. I think your son needs a face to face with his father instead of all this correspondence. Stay strong girl.
{{{{{{{{{{ T2L }}}}}}}}}}
I'm scared for you and DS10 as well, but I'm praying. I'm praying for God to shield DS10 from any evil msgs that may be in WH's letter.
I don't know what to tell you. WH is just an utter and complete doofus. I saw your picture, and I've read your posts. You are beautiful through and through, inside and out. WH must be blind, inside and out. I'll pray that his eyes are opened soon.
This did give me a smile:
memorize proverbs in braille
LOL You remembered!
You know what? Maybe you haven't thought of it like this yet but... you are in control. I encourage you to stick with Plan B, but technically if/when you've had enough you can always call it quits and go to Plan D. Not the happy ending we are all praying for, but you would be justified. You don't have to wait forever. I think re-evaluating when you reach the one-year mark is a good goal to keep in mind.
*hugs* and *prayers*
No you don't have the rotten attitude -- he does.
Will keep you in my prayers tonight. Remember as you tell me "no expectations".
Wait till the letter comes and see what he says. I think your son needs a face to face with his father instead of all this correspondence. Stay strong girl.
Yeah I should wait til it comes but I can't imagine its gonna be any good for DS10 or me.
Well I have spoken to my son and he out right refuses to tell his dad anything, he says he can't. He says I have never talked to my dad like that. He won't do it, I think it just freaks him out. He only feels comfortable emailing him at least for now. I did ask him today when he was crying if he wanted to call and he said no.
My worry is if he ever does talk to him face to face H will justify and twist. I don't want that. At least via email I can have the option of combating the lies and justifications with truth. DD17 I don't have to do that but with my son he's only 10. He usually can't be lied to that much but if it is spun well almost any child could believe it. So for now I am glad its email. He does not want to visit at this point unless DD17 goes and she is not in a visiting mood.
I see no light here really I don't. I can see more light with your H than mine cuz when the job and other stuff hits the fan that relationship is doomed. Don't see that for me. My H lives with her and has lived with her since August. I was hoping that it would ruin the fantasy but I see no improvements. I don't in my heart feel he's happy but now its about punishing me and how i need to change.
Sick of all of it. BIG FAT JERK! Yes I could move on and have no problem finding someone and moving on and probably being really happy, since I'm a happy person anyways(well at least Pre-A) but NO I'm sitting here trying to hold on for this man who is a complete jerk to me and has hurt me and my children horribly. Why why why!
Okay making a conscious choice to shut up right now.
Keep me posted on the progress with the exposure at work.
Thanks for support.
Digging up your plants again....
Digging up your plants again....
I am diggin up plants! I'm not just digging I am ripping, stomping and throwing weed killer all over the whole stinkin garden. {{{{Sigh}}}
I mean gosh, real plants bloom faster and at least they are lovely! Maybe I should planted a real garden instead of planting seeds inside of a lunatic!
My H never examines his self(even Pre-A), is that a male trait? I guess I made up for that always examining my heart and motivations for every little thing.
Can a FWS tell me before you recovered, did you ever examine your self or did you always blame something else and was it the PB that made you finally look to yourself?
Anyways, I'm trying to hold on. It's pretty hard. My hurt starts to sound like anger. I do fine for a few days then angry and want to give up and then starts all over again. Okay they say at 3 months in PB you start to feel better. Then I guess in 3 more weeks I'll be sailing...well it sounds good in theory at least.
{{self talk}} Focus, keep going, keep praying, breathe, stop thinking and no more gardening for a few days LOL. How bout gardening in braille, I mean at least i won't be able to see those darn flowers right?
Well as soon as we get that response from H to DS10 about his emails you can bet I'll be posting it.
G'night y'all
BTW I really think I would go nuts if it weren't for everyone who pops on, my IM's and this forum. You are pretty much the only ones I am talking to right now. I kinda have pulled away from everyone.
I have not been to church yet. Need to be in the right place before I go back, mostly for the protection of them. I don't want to spew. When I emailed my pastor last month and told him after i was asked to step down that I needed 2-3 weeks off to pray through some stuff. He said no problem I understand and that he wanted to come by the house after he got back in town. Pretty much I have disappeared off the radar. I have received a few worried texts where i respond with some simple thanks for your prayers.
Anyways I thank God for this support, its a life line. Its the only light I do see right now.
Have you found a therapist your son can work with who recognizes what manipulations your WH has put him through?
Who can act as mediator with your son to protect him when he meets with his dad, and support him in finding his words, without you needing to break Plan B? And still providing protection for your son?
Maybe you could get your son a journal that is his alone to write in. If he has a problem talking to a person he is angry with-- maybe he can write it down.
OR, my personal favorite- get him a sketchbook and some paints, pencils and glue- lots of glue.
Boys are visual beings -- even if they can't draw they like to sketch ideas out. You may get him a book on drawing cars in perspective- they seem to like that
Also get some magazines about cars, trucks and the like. Sometimes they can cut out pictures and collage posters to hang in room-
Point is- keep busy, keep creative, keep them inventing.
P.S. My professional advice:
Don't "read" too much (or anything) into images- sometimes a skull and crossbones is just a "cool" skull and crossbones-- not a sign of anything else.
Good morning T2L.
I know you are afraid of WH's response to your DS. But here's a word of encouragement.
I think there are some similarities in our families. I am guessing that your children have probably been taught God's truth from early on. My younger three boys (ages 6-10 at the time) were confused by WS's lies and twists. But IN THEIR HEARTS they knew the lies were lies. They often couldn't UNTWIST it all and see WHY or HOW it was lying, but their SPIRITS were unsettled and could not ACCEPT the lies as truth.
When I was aware of a lie, I would counter it with God's truth. But I didn't have to tell them it was a lie, they already knew in their hearts that it was.
I think your son will, too. His spirit will not embrace the lies. He may need help sorting through it to understanding how to counter it with truth; but he will know it is NOT truth.
tst told our kids that they would see him MORE now that he had moved out. Now, explain that one to me! He said lots more to them, but that one, it almost makes me laugh (if it weren't so sad) it's so ridiculous.
There's always the possibility that the letter will never come, that he doesn't have anything written out. He's been completely lazy since you went to Plan B. Not much calling, not much visiting, a few texts to your DD17... the email that he has "all written out but cannot send" might just be a smokescreen, just something to make DS10 think his Dad does think and care about him.
There's always the possibility that the letter will never come, that he doesn't have anything written out. He's been completely lazy since you went to Plan B. Not much calling, not much visiting, a few texts to your DD17... the email that he has "all written out but cannot send" might just be a smokescreen, just something to make DS10 think his Dad does think and care about him.
Well the message did say, I have a letter for you and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. I will get this to you in the next day or 2."
I'm pretty sure he's going to send it. He hasn't contacted them or visited them but IMHO it has nothing to do with being lazy. That's his way of protesting the kids, usually DD17, being mad at this or not being able to come to family functions.
Oh yeah forgot to mention this, yesterday DD17 calls me and she says momma I called dad, I say ok, she says I told him that I was upset that we didn't have any money to do anything for your birthday. I say DD17 that's really sweet of you but I don't want you to have to beg, not even your dad. She says well he said the reason why is his employer brought them all in and on payday and said we are switching to bi-weekly pay and they gave them no advance notice and everyone was arguing with them because no had time to save up.
Then GET THIS!!!! She says well I want to do something for momma for her birthday as she didn't get much for Christmas and I don't want it that way for her birthday. He says yeah I know, IF I WAS THERE I WOULD BUY HER SOMETHING WTH !!!!!! What on earth does that mean???
Anyways, financially I have not had to file as he has given us money. Its is lower and I am trying to work out to stay in the home. But H's job is in relation to economy and the housing market so his income has dropped a bit. He has told me that he does not want to lose the house if we can get the payment down(we bought in high tie 2 years ago). So after dday i consulted 3 different attorneys and they all said be prepared to lose your house. So from what they worked out, I would get less financially by filing since my H is giving us more that we would get if I did file. I don't know how long it will last as the OW may get pissed at some point that since the majority of the money goes to us. He told DD17 a few weeks ago that 90% of his income goes to us.
IDK I wish I could give him a swift kick in his pants!
Yes I have found a therapist, we had to reschedule intake but we should be going after the 22nd.
And DS10 loves cars and coloring. He colors daily and for Christmas I got him this really cool book that has traceable luxury cars that you can color in.
Did you get that maze link I posted?
My kids LOVE mazes. Thought DS might like it too.
t2l, my D18 has had a lot of issues in her life. I have tried to approach them all with logic and by introducing her to the idea of psychology. I explain to her that the science of psychology dictates certain responses from people who have encountered certain experiences. For example, girls whose fathers leave them when the girl is between 10 and 15 have an exponentially higher risk of having SF, getting pregnant, or doing drugs - because the father leaving is a key blow to a developing girl - she takes it personally no matter what anyone says, and she turns to other males to get what she should be getting from her father.
Anyway, when a person has been mean to her, or something bad has happened, I've helped her work through it by explaining what I think is going on in that person's head.
It really helps her see inside the other person, see how they could come to the conclusion of doing this or that bad thing, how it would make sense to them. It helps her to be more compassionate toward them, and it helps her not take what is happening to her personally - i.e., she doesn't BLAME herself. I really think this is the one key step that has created such a strong, decisive, powerful young woman. It is so empowering to know that what other people do has NOTHING to do with you.
And incidentally, she is now going to go to college for a degree in psychology and plans to help kids with problems.
What do you think about trying that approach with DS10? Do you need help figuring out what to say, if you decide to do it? His main issues, as I see it, are fear of abandonment (fear of angering and pushing away his dad even more by talking to him in person, and this is going to stay with him his whole life if you don't address it) and self-doubt (blaming himself for not being good enough to keep his dad there).
Yes I have taught the kids from that perspective but also with a Christian tie to it.
I have taught DD17 that dad had a bad childhood and that's part of what we are seeing now, but so did I, and that it does not excuse it. I have told her that I allowed God to heal and remove the things from my past in the emotional soul areas but that is because I allowed God in to my heart to deal with these things. I have explained to her that her dad has not even acknowledged that he has these issues.
But with DS10 I have said similar things to him. In fact, its kinda funny and cute, he says to me can I send dad another email asking him to go to therapy? I say well DS10 Idk I think your dad may feel that I have said this to you so it may not be a good idea and he smiles and says oh darn.
But yes I teach the kids the practical and biblical. They do also understand that this is absolutely a spiritual attack. I new in prayer about this 1 month before it happened. My H and I were associate Pastors being raised up to take over a church and H was in Bible school and was going to receive his BA in theology by December. I explain to my son where the bible says that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy and that is what is happening. He then says well why hasn't God made daddy come home(this is all last night in fact) I say well God gives us all free will to do what we want, even to do bad things. I tell him God wouldn't be good if he forced us to do everything would he? He says no. But I do bring the practical into it as well and explain to him that dad needs to make good choices and that God is trying to turn him back to the family but that HE won't force him. Then he says can I have one more hug momma? He's such a sweetie, and a booger too!
But yes I have found explaining both the practical and spiritual works well with the kids. The have a fuller understanding.
OMG here is his response, I am shaking I want to barf and pass out. Need to finish reading it but am posting here.
I’m sorry are crying and I’m sorry that I yelled at your mom but I will not discuss my personal business with you. You are 10 years old and you should just love your dad as I love you just the way you are. Unlike everyone else around you, I will not pump you full of information you do not need to know about and that’s one of the reasons you are hurting so much. I want to see you a lot but cant because you are being protected from me. I never said your mom is trying to keep me from you but she making it harder because of what you know about me. I’m not a bad person just because I leave a nasty message ONE TIME. You know too much and that makes me very angry at a lot of people. I hate a lot of people right now but you don’t have to know who. Too many people know my personal business and that’s embarrassing to me and the whole family. Yes this is all bad but it did get a lot worse when it didn’t have to. Stop talking about it and just let me be your dad and stop mentioning her name!!! How do you know I’m with her? Just let it be and lets just enjoy what we have now ok! The more crap I hear and each message I get from people that have nothing to do with our business makes me more angry and bitter. Everyone just needs to shut up!!! And I’m not the only one in the family that agrees with that. Yes I’ve done some bad things and said some mean things but I DO NOT TALK TO THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT MY BUSINESS!!! Stop judging me and just let me be your dad. Don’t get caught up in all of the girly gossip. You want me to apologize to all of the family? NO!!! I don’t owe them nothing because I didn’t do anything to them! If you have a problem with grandma M , you need to deal with that yourself. I’m sick of everyone blaming me for their problems that THEY have with her. THEY need to tell her how THEY feel about her and stop telling me about it!!! THEY are all scared to tell her over the phone so THEY have to keep sending emails to her about crap that has nothing to do with me. She still loves all of you no matter how much you guys hate her. She refuses to respond to all of the negative crap that everyone sends her. She still even has Christmas presents for you.
I have always tried to be the best father to you and I’m still trying but anything I do and have ever done has been judged and measured. So no matter what I do, good or bad, is just not good enough to some people. You all falling into that category and I hope you will just forgive me and love me as I love you. I miss you guys and I still have many dreams about you. A lot of things need to change and its not all about me.
Dad
T2L--- DO NOT LET DS read that! WH wrote that KNOWING that you would read it, it was written for you. It's HOGWASH... and you know it.
This letter will hurt your son to his core, just as it has hurt you. There is nothing LOVING in it.
Please, please, do not believe the filth and lies spewing in that piece of trash.
He will be ASHAMED someday of what he's written.
So close to what my WxH said to DD15 when she wrote him a letter.
So very very wayward.
I feel for you all.
Gosh.
Emotional extortion much?
Emotional vampire much?
you have a problem with grandma ** , you need to deal with that yourself.
Geesh. Nice protection of your child there, daddy-o!
It was all a thinly veiled response to get to you, T2L. It had little to nothing to do with DS...but poor DS isn't gonna see it that way.
And excuse me, but is this sorry SOB telling your BOY - your CHILD to MAN UP? Is he?
A 10 yo? Are you kidding me????
Tell me your son hasn't seen this...
Tell me you are going to check with his therapist to see how to handle this...
T2L {{{{hugs to you}}}}}
I officially want to beat the cr@p out of him myself.
WTH kind of letter is that for a 10 year old.
why didn't he just write one page and put this on it....
me me me me me me me me me me me
Maybe I should resign from my duties...I'm madder'na wet cat and twice as mean right now.
The momma tiger in me has got 'er back up for ya.
why didn't he just write one page and put this on it....
me me me me me me me me me me me
Yer one smart hermana, Hope.
That's disgusting. Even my dad wasn't that cruel, and he was the most selfish man I ever met.
PLEASE don't let DS10 read that. It will kill him. Turn it right over to your lawyer. Today. Delete any copies of it, today.
I agree with CP - along with copies of what DS wrote to him.
This is unacceptable.
Has he always behaved like a 9 year old?
Heck...even my 9 year old doesn't act an iota as entitled and wa-wahhhhhh as Waynerd.
WOW -- that is a lot of garbage spewing.
Please just hand this over to that poor kids counselor -- and your attorney.
(((hugs T2L)))
That was directed at you -- not DS. He's madder than a wet cat at being exposed!
Is it a full moon for waywards today???
Oh that's right-- everyday is a full moon for them.
Okay I'll try to answer them all.
-yes now that i look back he has always acted like a 9 year old. example fits of angry outburst. That is childish
-I have no attorney as he has continued to provide for us.
-probably wonder why i haven't file. Here's why. California has nothing to protect my son from paramour exposure. This hoor, who used to work at H's place of employment saw me and the children on occasion in that office and she knew of us. I would rather die than expose my son to them. I will stay like this until he is 13 unless he stops providing for us. California believes 50/50 custody is in the best interest of the child and I do not. I do not want to deny him visit's but spending the weekend is a whole other.
-Will copy the emails to and from and put in my file. I have all correspondence to and from the IM's and a journal that I have started from the get go.
-I have found a therapist for DS10 and we will be going for assessment after the 22nd and I will bring the emails with me.
-yes i know that email was meant for me
-Neak is going to read it and break it down paragraph at a time and help me decide what can be told to DS10 as he keeps asking if his dad responded. I have told him that his dad responded today and that its not very good and that I will go over it to protect him and only let him see what is necessary.
Now you can all see why I was freaking out last night. Told ya it was gonna be a bunch of crap. Was really hoping that it wasn't going to be that bad.
T2L, I am so sorry.
As everyone else has said, that letter was clearly written FOR YOU.
Please give it to DS's counselor and your attorney.
I HATE WAYWARDS I HATE WAYWARDS I HATE WAYWARDS I HATE WAYWARDS.
He is using your children at every opportunity he can to break your Plan B. Do you see how much he wants to get to you. He cannot stand that you are moving on and giving him what he wants--freedom to be a dumb@$$.
Sometimes I think the better the husband was BEFORE the affair, the WORSE a wayward he is.
I'll tell you the same thing some folks told me when I posted some of tst's wayward crap: He will be HORRIFIED one day at what he did!
And he will, T2L. I hope it's very, very soon. Or he will have destroyed every ounce of love you have tried so hard to protect. Nothing will do it quicker than hurting your babies!
On the bright side, it does show that he's not liking the exposure or the Plan B. He's clearly under tons of stress. He hates where he is and he's blaming everyone BUT himself.
It totally sucks that he attacked DS10 rather than comforting him. I think the idea of asking the therapist how to handle the message is a GREAT one. When is the appointment?
Wow, he's totally all about himself, isn't he?
This is the first time I've thought this about your sitch but I'm beginning to think... you can do better. He's an egocentric selfish spoiled narcissistic brat. But maybe that's just his waynerd side talking.
Sometimes I think the better the husband was BEFORE the affair, the WORSE a wayward he is.
I do, too.
I still would like to beat the cr@p of out him.
Maybe I can gather all my italian friends...hhhmmmm
Don't tell your son, T2L...but my son punched VD in the stomach....
Thought that might make you grin a bit.
Hope, who needs Italians when you got kids that are Scotch/Irish and Mexican???
:twobyfour:
Sometimes I think the better the husband was BEFORE the affair, the WORSE a wayward he is.
I do, too.
Yeah its like he is glory riding on the fact that he was a decent guys before and so it entitles him to be a complete jerk!
Do you see how i mentioned the fact that he says I need to change. He honestly believes that I need changing and he doesn't. IT is a complete blind spot to his own self. I don't even know if a PB can change that. A person can deceive themselves their whole lives. I was hoping that he would make it out of this. I was really hoping the man I thought was so strong could do this, but what if the enemy is himself.
Ok so many of you have been on here a while, so is he the worst you've seen or what. Lets be serious, does he seem hopeless?
Every time I see this word, I just crack up laughing. Can I borrow it from time to time?
Or we could think up some more...
wayturd
wayabsurd
I'll bet Neak can come up with a few, can't ya, Neak? Come on, play a bit.
Goin' home now. If you need to vent at me, I think I could keep my cussin' at a minimum.
Love you mucho grande ginormous!
Don't tell your son, T2L...but my son punched VD in the stomach....
Thought that might make you grin a bit.
Hope, who needs Italians when you got kids that are Scotch/Irish and Mexican???
:twobyfour:
That is a good laugh. Both my kids have warned him that the will beat her face in if they see her. Sad thing is they probably will.
Every time I see this word, I just crack up laughing. Can I borrow it from time to time?
Or we could think up some more...
wayturd
wayabsurd
I'll bet Neak can come up with a few, can't ya, Neak? Come on, play a bit.
You can have it.
I've used wayturd for some uber obnoxious Waynerds before too.
I also like StoleMeat instead of soul mate....just adds a certain...ahhh....to a line.
Don't tell your son, T2L...but my son punched VD in the stomach....
Thought that might make you grin a bit.
Hope, who needs Italians when you got kids that are Scotch/Irish and Mexican???
:twobyfour:
That is a good laugh. Both my kids have warned him that the will beat her face in if they see her. Sad thing is they probably will.
It's not sad, honey.
They are protecting theirs. That's what DS9 was doin' (he was about 5 at the time)...he knew what a threat she was to our family...so do yours.
And you know...we want our kids to be respectful of other adults...but sometimes those adults don't deserve it....and no one can ever tell me that the kids don't know it right off...kids and dogs'll tell you every time!
Stop talking about it and just let me be your dad and stop mentioning her name!!! How do you know I'm with her?
Ummm WTH!?!?!? Is there anyone here who speaks ret@rd? I need a translation please.
Stop mentioning her name LOL I am utterly clueless and speechless. He says that like she's an "IT". Any thoughts?
Stop talking about it and just let me be your dad and stop mentioning her name!!! How do you know I'm with her?
Ummm WTH!?!?!? Is there anyone here who speaks ret@rd? I need a translation please.
Stop mentioning her name LOL I am utterly clueless and speechless. He says that like she's an "IT". Any thoughts?
He's trying to make "her" not a big deal...even though everyone knows Ursula was as BIG a deal as a HOUSE!
Idjit.
Yeah its like he is glory riding on the fact that he was a decent guys before and so it entitles him to be a complete jerk!
T2L, my FWH's favorite "spin" was "I did everything I could for so many years. I was a good dad, a provider, a Christian, but I just quit fighting trying to make everyone else do the right thing. I was neglected, you turned the kids against me, blah, blah, blah."
My FWH was horrible to my youngest daughter while he was away, she was a firecracker with him as well.
These waynerds are NOT the men we KNEW and LOVED. I said repeatedly to him and everyone else, this is NOT my husband!
The man who wrote that letter to your son is not your husband OR a father.
He is not hopeless... he's just pitching a bigger fit.
By the way, to lighten things up a little, I recommend the movie "SheDevil" with Roseanne Barr (I don't usually like her stuff). I LMAO at the ways she got back at her wayward (if you think you can handle it.)
Yeah its like he is glory riding on the fact that he was a decent guys before and so it entitles him to be a complete jerk!
No, I think the good men, that are dragged under with sin, HAVE to turn away from everything they were. They can't live both ways, they can't be a good father and bad husband, so they just do dumb@$$ all the way.
Their sin OVERTAKES them.
He honestly believes that I need changing and he doesn't.
No, he doesn't. He just has NOTHING to justify his behavior...absolutely NOTHING. All he can come up with is...I'm not the only one who needs to change.
I don't even know if a PB can change that.
You aren't plan Bing to change anything. You are Plan Bing to protect your love. And see what happens when you aren't protected? YOU LOSE LOVE. You almost hate him right now because he put himself before your son when your son was bearing his soul. PROTECT YOURSELF because one day this affair IS going to end. And he WILL be horrified.
OK, I'm not going to let you get away with this:
A person can deceive themselves their whole lives.
And who is the master of that deception?
Or this:
I was hoping that he would make it out of this. I was really hoping the man I thought was so strong could do this, but what if the enemy is himself.
You MUST remember who the enemy is?
It is NOT the father of your children, the man you chose to spend your entire life with.
YOU know who it is.
Ok so many of you have been on here a while, so is he the worst you've seen or what.
No. He really is no worse than tst was or most of the other WS's.
Really.
Lets be serious, does he seem hopeless?
No...not anymore than MY husband was hopeless.
Do NOT give up hope. That gives power to the enemy...the REAL enemy. HE LOVES HOPELESSNESS.
T2L,,,have we seen a worse wayward???
Ok how about All's H...on DB...he is a real piece of work.
Beats your H any day of the week... ;-)
Dealan - ok I am married to a Scot. Those 100% Italians beat them all. I still have relatives in Little Italy - NYC...
Let's all watch the Sopranos or the Godfather tonight! Even the Irish and the Mexicans..
I'll make you a deal you can't refuse.
Well, I'll take a shot at it
"I’m sorry are crying and I’m sorry that I yelled at your mom but I will not discuss my personal business with you. You are 10 years old and you should just love your dad as I love you just the way you are."
Translation: You are only 10 years old and I am embarassed that you know you dad abandoned you and the family for an adulteress.
"Unlike everyone else around you, I will not pump you full of information you do not need to know about and that’s one of the reasons you are hurting so much. I want to see you a lot but cant because you are being protected from me. I never said your mom is trying to keep me from you but she making it harder because of what you know about me. I’m not a bad person just because I leave a nasty message ONE TIME. You know too much and that makes me very angry at a lot of people. I hate a lot of people right now but you don’t have to know who. Too many people know my personal business and that’s embarrassing to me and the whole family."
Translation: Gee, the adultery isn't so fun anymore now that everyone knows about it.
"Yes this is all bad but it did get a lot worse when it didn’t have to. Stop talking about it and just let me be your dad and stop mentioning her name!!! How do you know I’m with her? Just let it be and lets just enjoy what we have now ok! The more crap I hear and each message I get from people that have nothing to do with our business makes me more angry and bitter. Everyone just needs to shut up!!! And I’m not the only one in the family that agrees with that. Yes I’ve done some bad things and said some mean things but I DO NOT TALK TO THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT MY BUSINESS!!! Stop judging me and just let me be your dad. Don’t get caught up in all of the girly gossip. You want me to apologize to all of the family? NO!!! I don’t owe them nothing because I didn’t do anything to them!"
Translation: It would be more comfortable for me if you would just be quiet about me leaving the family to engage in adultery.
"If you have a problem with grandma M , you need to deal with that yourself. I’m sick of everyone blaming me for their problems that THEY have with her. THEY need to tell her how THEY feel about her and stop telling me about it!!! THEY are all scared to tell her over the phone so THEY have to keep sending emails to her about crap that has nothing to do with me. She still loves all of you no matter how much you guys hate her. She refuses to respond to all of the negative crap that everyone sends her. She still even has Christmas presents for you."
Translation: Grandma still loves you and it might be time to send HER an email about this attack on your family.
"I have always tried to be the best father to you and I’m still trying but anything I do and have ever done has been judged and measured. So no matter what I do, good or bad, is just not good enough to some people. You all falling into that category and I hope you will just forgive me and love me as I love you. I miss you guys and I still have many dreams about you. A lot of things need to change and its not all about me."
Translation: Everybody hates me, nobody loves me, guess I'll go eat worms................
Dad
That's perfect! Pity it can't go to DS10, but I think you've made an excellent case and would be an excellent interpreter!
Neak asked me to let you know that her internet is down again and she won't be able to post right now.
Neaksis
Okay tell her thanks for taking the time to let me know.
Made it through the day!
Told DS10 that I have to go over the email before I can let him see what was written because its not safe for a 10 year old.
Another dark PB day. He did not contact his kids, wow that's an unexpected news flash, NOT.
I guess considering how badly that email hit me at first, we did fine. DS10 and I rented some movies and watched them together. We finally picked out an activity in the park and rec city guide. He wants to take the home schoolers swim program with water polo etc on Mon, Wed, and Friday and then he wants to take the Diving class that teaches reverse, twisting etc diving and its on Tues, and Thurs. so he will have something Monday-Friday.
He was nervous last week when I told him to pick something out but he seems pretty happy about what we picked.
Oh yeah forgot to tell you guys this, its hilarious. so after I go the email from H i told DS10 that he responded and i could not let him see it all and that I would go through it and show him what was safe. Well he says come on mom tell me what it says and I say I can't really yet honey. So I say well I'll tell you one thing. I said your dad said that the reason you are upset with him is because we are telling you too many bad things about him. Ready for this, I laughed hysterically, he says WHAT! That's ridiculous what a baby! OMG I lost it, he called him a baby. Then he looks at the ceiling and says sorry dad but that's ridiculous. Man sometimes he freaks me out at his candidness, but its also that he nails it right on the money sometimes. Anyways that was the best laugh i had all day a 10 year old calling his father a baby. Dear lord what will he say next.
Anyways I find it interesting that he has told both his kids now, "how do you know I'm with her?" I betcha there's trouble in paradise. And on the last day of Plan A when I said to him this is exhausting and he says what and I respond the sharing and he says your not sharing. IDK. Odd, but really what's odd anymore in Waywardland, or United States of Waywards, or Planet Wayward, or Fogland, or Fogaria doesn't it sound so magical and lovely.
Okay going to bed getting silly...G'night friends
I want to see you a lot but cant because you are being
protected from me.
'Dis is what they call one of 'dem ...errr. Freudian slips, methinks.
Remember this came from his mind.
Throw away the rest of the letters content- and read this line. it is verrry telling.
He knows what he is doing is wrong.
Kimmy--tried to email you but it didn't work. You need to go back a few pages and edit a quote. If you can't find it email me. Mine hasn't changed. I'll be back later today.
tl
This is the first time I've thought this about your sitch but I'm beginning to think... you can do better. He's an egocentric selfish spoiled narcissistic brat. But maybe that's just his waynerd side talking.
I've calmed down some since I wrote the above. I was too angry, I think. Just stay in your Plan B cocoon and enjoy your children and your own company.
I know you have said he was prone to childish behavior before the A. Maybe you could take this time, in Plan B, to try and figure out what part of his behavior is affair-related and what part is just deep down HIM. Then you'll have a better feeling for how long you're willing to stay in Plan B. You might find that waiting until your one year post D-day is simply not worth it, or you may find that you're content to live your life and enrich your sense of self for longer than your one year goal.
I've calmed down some since I wrote the above. I was too angry, I think. Just stay in your Plan B cocoon and enjoy your children and your own company.
No worries Turtle! Understand, I think that email took everyone by surprise. Well not really me, you could hear I was expecting it the night before from my post. but it all jars my brain.
I know you have said he was prone to childish behavior before the A. Maybe you could take this time, in Plan B, to try and figure out what part of his behavior is affair-related and what part is just deep down HIM. Then you'll have a better feeling for how long you're willing to stay in Plan B. You might find that waiting until your one year post D-day is simply not worth it, or you may find that you're content to live your life and enrich your sense of self for longer than your one year goal.
Well he had angry outburst before the affair, not all the time but here and there. He would throw something or hit a wall. So that was childish crap Pre-A. So anger was already there. His oldest brother, whom he cussed out and said he never wanted to speak to again because he told him he needed to do the right thing, said to my H that he has always been angry. He said you've been angry since you were a kid. So IDK I guess it could be him as well. But now the anger is off the charts. When he was here with the family and going to church, I guess he controlled it but once he did what he did it took him over is the best way to describe it.
I don't know what to do or what I want. I will always love the man he started to become. Each year he walked with God he became more of the real person God created him to be. But after dday he told friends he was living a lie. I am not sure what he meant by that. I think he struggled with things internally(duh) and instead of trying to work through them and not let them define him he owned them, does that make sense?
Most of the time, I am trying to stand for the marriage, but every now and again I think what am I doing he clearly doesn't deserve me or appreciate anything about me. Actually even before the affair I am not fully sure that he accepted me for me. He would poke fun at me quite a bit and with DD17. It wasn't totally malicious but it just was about the way I am-vitamin freak etc etc. But then if you ask him he will say that the 3 of us never accepted him and put him under a microscope. I am not sure what he means by that. Everyday he came home from work he was celebrated and we all ran out to his car to greet him. He says he was put under a microscope and nothing was ever right, and he may be right a bit. HE would have very pessimistic attitudes and I would try to encourage him to see more optimistically and I guess that could feel like a DJ.
I don't know. I am up and down about what to do. I used to tell him all the time he was a great man and always tried to encourage him and give him admiration, now I think he probably thinks I don't deserve him.
I truly don't know what to do. I am torn about it. I know the affair will end and i think by his comments it may already be headed that way, but now a good portion of it is control and making me pay for opening my mouth.
He keeps saying things need to change, but the crazy thing is I have changed I am not begging him or appeasing him which is what i did for 19 years. I have always had a fear of adultery so I think I coward down apologized when i didn't need to and things like that. So yes he's right things needed to change, and I have, my Plan B is part of me standing up for myself and not doing everything to please him constantly and guess what he doesn't like the changes.
I am sure at some point I am going to know exactly what to do with a peace about it. Right now I am trying to stand for him and its really not fun even in PB but I am sad but have bits of calm here and there.
Was listening to some music this morning and a song came on and I remembered that DD17 sent this video to her dad early on, about 4 months or so ago. Its very moving on how these children feel when the parent walks away. H didn't say much to her about it, he said yeah thats a nice song. You figure it would reach him, but fog is unreachable.
Anyways here's the link she sent him:
Daddy's little girl Go get your tissue now....
T2L, OMG -- when H told D15 he was leaving the next day she came to me with that song on her Ipod.
She said that is exactly how I feel about Daddy moving out. She wanted to talk to him about it. I told H about the conversation I had about it. 2 days later my D15 gives the Ipod to H and has him listen to the song...what does he say..
Oh no I am not leaving because of you, I am leaving because I am not happy and your Mom and me do not get along.
She was furious. I told him you never validated her feelings at all. He just used all fog babble.
That song will rip your heart out. How could they not react to it?
ok, I am not as clever, witty or insighful as the others, so excuse my mistakes....
Dear T2L via DS10. A-ha! i have found a way to bypass PlanB.
I'm sorry are crying
true but damn it why are you making me see you are unhappy?
and I'm sorry that I yelled at your mom but I will not discuss my personal business with you.
Schoolbus says that a statement preceeded by a 'but' cancels out the first statement so..... he is not sorry?
You are 10 years old and you should just love your dad as I love you just the way you are.
I am a freeloader and I wish you to be a freeloader so i dont have to make things right like a buyer would
Unlike everyone else around you, I will not pump you full of information you do not need to know about and that's one of the reasons you are hurting so much.
I will tell you lies to 'protect you' but really to protect me so you dont find out how much of a POS I really am
I want to see you a lot but cant because you are being protected from me.
Bloody plan B! I hate it!
I never said your mom is trying to keep me from you but she making it harder because of what you know about me.
theres another but. Mum doesnt have to keep you from me, I am doing a fine job of it myself now you know what I am up to
I'm not a bad person just because I leave a nasty message ONE TIME.
No I am not. I am a bad person cos I wont remove my head from my [censored], man up and do what is right.
You know too much and that makes me very angry at a lot of people.
Your knowing has made you loose repect from me. i can really take it out on you so I am going to blame others for my deeds.
I hate a lot of people right now but you don't have to know who.
Because telling you I hate people is less nasty than actually going into details???
Too many people know my personal business and that's embarrassing to me and the whole family.
I hate exposure!!!
Yes this is all bad but it did get a lot worse when it didn't have to.
I want my red clothed, lap dancing, watermelon presenting, patouli scented, admiring plan A goddess back
Stop talking about it and just let me be your dad on my terms and stop mentioning her name!!! How do you know I'm with her?
I keep saying this but refuse to clarify what I mean. i like keeping everyone confused.
Just let it be and lets just enjoy what we have now ok!
Freeloader relationships with my children are great. Then they dont expect me to be a real dad.
The more crap I hear and each message I get from people that have nothing to do with our business makes me more angry and bitter.
I hate exposure. I hate everyone knowing what a POS I am because I know they are right.
Everyone just needs to shut up!!! And I'm not the only one in the family that agrees with that.
I like secrets. Secrets and half stories will hide what is real and make me sound mysterious
Yes I've done some bad things and said some mean things but I DO NOT TALK TO THE WHOLE WORLD ABOUT MY BUSINESS!!!
because I bloody well know its wrong and makes me a POS
Stop judging me and just let me be your dad.
on my freeloading terms
Don't get caught up in all of the girly gossip.
ignore the 'wimin folk' lets be men together, besides your young enough to believe my reality...right?You want me to apologize to all of the family? NO!!! I don't owe them nothing because I didn't do anything to them!
just to you, your sister and your mum
If you have a problem with grandma M , you need to deal with that yourself. I'm sick of everyone blaming me for their problems that THEY have with her. THEY need to tell her how THEY feel about her and stop telling me about it!!! THEY are all scared to tell her over the phone so THEY have to keep sending emails to her about crap that has nothing to do with me.
Isnt it great how you can blame everything on THEY. THEY are in a conspiracy, they are keeping Roswell under wraps, THEY have put things in the water.
She still loves all of you no matter how much you guys hate her. She refuses to respond to all of the negative crap that everyone sends her. She still even has Christmas presents for you.
She does but she also wants a freeloading relationship and pressies will make you think more of her than you curently do. She doesnt like being plan B'ed either
I have always tried to be the best father to you and I'm still trying but anything I do and have ever done has been judged and measured.
Only now instead of being judged a good father, I am being judged a POS, and I cant juxtapose being a good dad and a POSWH so the fallout spreads to you.
So no matter what I do, good or bad, is just not good enough to some people.
So I should stop bothering being good and just stay bad????
You all falling into that category and I hope you will just forgive me and love me as I love you.
Please forgive me with out me having to actually make amends. I do actually love you, I am just too slimy to be a good dad right now and cant see it for myself.
I miss you guys and I still have many dreams about you.
Prolly true
A lot of things need to change
Me for starters
and its not all about me.
Finally some truth after a letter saying me me me me. Really its about manning up, being the right person regardless of the situation and doing what is right.
Dad
I emailed this song to tst at work a few days after he told me he was leaving the second time.
Remember When by Alan Jackson It had always been a special song to me. He would always sing it to me when it came on and look me deep in the eyes, like it meant something to him, too.
Now the song fits even more...
"came together, fell apart,and broke each other's hearts" never really fit before.
I asked him awhile back if it got to him at all. He said it got in...but then something interrupted him (probably a call from OW), and he closed it all off.
I'd like to send this link to OW with a message that says:
CAN'T TOUCH THAT!But I think I'll just send it to tst again.
Thanks T2L, now I'm bawling at work.
I was a daddy's girl, he always called me "princess". He died at the age of 51 and it ripped my heart out.
I feel soooo bad for your D17 if this is the kind of relationship they had pre-A. Arghhhhhhh!!!!!
I just wanna smack your WH...
I just wanna smack your WH...
Get in line
I think that email took everyone by surprise.
His response didn't surprise me, and I doubt it surprised most of the people here.
He's a wayward.
Not a special wayward...
a very typical one.
We just all get so dang P.O.'d when we hear them babble to children!
But really,
he's no different than the rest.
Thanks T2L, now I'm bawling at work.
I was a daddy's girl, he always called me "princess". He died at the age of 51 and it ripped my heart out.
I feel soooo bad for your D17 if this is the kind of relationship they had pre-A. Arghhhhhhh!!!!!
I just wanna smack your WH...
PM, I tried NOT to go listen to that song because I was NOT in the mood to cry.
But your post MADE ME go listen.
So now, I'm having a cryfest with you.
{{{{PM}}}}
{{{T2L}}}}
Yes DD17 and her dad were very close. Closer than her and I are now. I was the one always keeping things together and doing "family work" i.e parenting, discipline, etc and he would just work and then tuck them in, so he was magical and they somewhat resented me. I was always the bearer of bad news....do your homework, clean your room, hey honey can you mow the lawns...etc etc
Really because the kids thought he was magical they would all kinda make fun of me, but my family meant so much that I worked hard and made sure not just fun happened but the important stuff too. Great thing is DD17 told him i used to be close to you but now I am close to my mom and I you will never make me think she is crazy.
Funny forgot this til just now. Right after dday, like 1 month he meets DD17 at the job and then takes her out to lunch and tells her your mom is controlling, she wanted me to mow the lawns and clean the fish tank....
Ok whatever...I mean the fish tank i tried only once and almost dropped it. it is so big and heavy, mind you I am not physically weak. I am somewhat muscular. Then I tried mowing that lawn 1 time and thought i was gonna die, anyways I'm the meanie controlling I want the lawn mowed and fish tank cleaned BS.
Thanks T2L, now I'm bawling at work.
I was a daddy's girl, he always called me "princess". He died at the age of 51 and it ripped my heart out.
I feel soooo bad for your D17 if this is the kind of relationship they had pre-A. Arghhhhhhh!!!!!
I just wanna smack your WH...
PM, I tried NOT to go listen to that song because I was NOT in the mood to cry.
But your post MADE ME go listen.
So now, I'm having a cryfest with you.
{{{{PM}}}}
I know I told DD17 this morning that I posted it and she said yeah and he didn't even care. I said well you could send it again and she said yeah and he wont care again.
Unfortunately she is the one who tells me to move on the most. She is the one that says you deserve better. I tell her what someone recommended, i have 1 shot to try and recover and my whole life to D him. i'm sticking to my plan to try and make it to 1 year and asses then.
{{{T2L}}}}
I think that email took everyone by surprise.
His response didn't surprise me, and I doubt it surprised most of the people here.
He's a wayward.
Not a special wayward...
a very typical one.
We just all get so dang P.O.'d when we hear them babble to children!
But really,
he's no different than the rest.
Well I guess that's good to know.
Surprisingly I feel okay. Every now and again I get mad but for the most part I feel okay. Neakie pooh is reading it for me and breaking down what I should allow DS10 to hear. I truly want him to hear as much as I can without any harm to him so he can see for himself that dad's not quite right, well think he already does. LOL
Updates....Nuttin, quiet dark PB day. Saturday will be 9 weeks of PB. I surely did not see it going this far since H responded to PA so well. But whatever.
DS10 seems fine, he doesn't even bring up his dad. Usually I ask him ahead of time if he wants to talk if his dad calls, he said no. I also ask how he's doing with his dad, he says fine.
Anyways, I guess H is waiting for a response from DS10 IDK. He did not call his son tonight or show up for visitation schedule but he did however text DD17 to say hi and what are you doing she said she told him hi and getting ready for work and he said okay talk to you later. I sometimes wonder why he tries harder to reach out to DD17 more than he does for DS10. Guess it doesn't matter.
G'night Hugs to all....
That's easy. DD17 talks to him. Even if she chews him out, she doesn't flat out reject him. And this is his SON rejecting him - no one wants to have that thrown in their face, that what they are doing is so despicable that their own child would rather cut him off than have to see him.
Agree totally with cat.
My H talks to D28 because she listens to him and sometimes has sympathy for him while D15 cut him off at the knees and he has been avoiding her. He is waiting for the Atty or counselor to fix it for him. Who is the parent?
T2L, your H does not want to hear the truth. He wants it all sugarcoated and your S10 broke that mold. H does not want to deal with the reality. It is a sad state.
T2L, really appreciate your support last night and as always. {{{hugs}}}}}}}}
We will survive and thrive in the end.
Mornin'! So DS10 and I just woke up. HE is still sleeping in my bed but hope to make progress on that once we get to therapy, anyways he wakes up and rolls over to momma and snuggles with he and then he looks at me and says mom do you think hes gonna marry her? I say honey he's still married to me so he can't right now, but if he divorces me then he can, so I don't know.
So sad little guy opened his eyes 1st thing in the morning and its on his mind. I say did you have a dream about it or something and he says no so I respond your just thinking about that in the morning he says yeah.
I had stupid nightmares all night about H and the n Sea Hag. Had a retarded dream that a friend told me the Sea Hag was drop dead gorgeous and that H was with me and then lied and was back with her....uggg.
Off to make breakfast....
Checking in, Nothing new, no call to DS10. Dark PB day.
Well tonight DD17 went to the movies with her 1st paycheck,
and DS10 went to a birthday party sleepover at a friend we know from church.
DS10 doesn't do too many sleepovers anymore. He really has to feel super safe with the family to go because of the anxiety it brought on by the A. He only stays at this families home or his cousins house. Anyways I am happy for both my kids to be doing something tonight away from home.
I am trying to enjoy the quiet, but can't help but think how nice it would have been to spend the evening here with my "real" H.
Makes the being alone a little harder.
G'night....
I am trying to enjoy the quiet, but can't help but think how nice it would have been to spend the evening here with my "real" H. Makes the being alone a little harder.
G'night....
Sweet Dreams.
I remember the 1st time I was alone, I was AFRAID to be in my apt with no one else. Those thoughts are always the hardest because we have the what ifs...
You are doing so good. Your Plan B is stellar these days and your kids are seeing you move on.
Good for you..... sleep well and be good to yourself.
Find one of those movie classics and a glass of wine. sweet dreams (yeah right, sleep is so overrated these days)
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
Fell asleep too early last night, but internet finally seems to be normal again. Oops, shouldn't have said anything...
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
You may be right, but I have told myself to make no life decision before 1 year so I will see how I am at the 1 year mark of dday.
He has mentioned that D will cause financial destruction so I don't think he actually wants a D, at least yet.
I do not believe he supports her, but pays a portion of rent and it seems they buy there own groceries. I could be wrong but while in PA these are things I kinda put together.
I do not have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. I refuse to choose a drop dead date to file as I won't know when I am ready to file until I feel that in my heart. I want to look back with no regrets and I cannot do that until it's in my heart to do. So it matters not to me if I look foolish or not. When its in my heart to do, then that's when I'll do it. God leads the heart and though I feel hurt and even question God right now, he will still continue to lead my heart and when the grace to stand for my marriage is gone, He will remove that desire and I will surely know. Besides one of my mentors here said this and a I have been using it faithfully. I have my whole life to D my H and I have 1 shot to try and save the marriage.
I am sure he would love 2 families but he does not get that as I am in a dark PB. He gets some contact occasionally with his kids, but DS10 is angry with him and won't talk to him right now and DD17 feels its stupid for her to make time for her father who should be living here so she only visits when she wants and he gets no needs met from me so with all that, that's not much of 2 families. Plus during the summer about 3 months in he asked me how much money I needed and I responded IDK however much you have left after you take care of your new family to which he blew up and said they are not my new family I take care of you guys. Then several weeks ago he told DD17 that he gives mom 90% of his income which I actually think he may.
I don't feel the need to rush and since California cannot protect DS10 from the OW, I will stay like this for however long or until he files to keep my son from the Sea Hag.
I do not know if she is pregnant. DD17 and I have asked him many times he said she is fixed.
Besides I have read a few success stories here that seemed hopeless so I still have the tiniest bit of hope, at least for now. I am also trying to take in consideration the facts in SAA that say all affairs die a natural death between 8-18 months and i am not there yet anyways.
I "had" a friend, H turned them against me with his rewritten martial history story, but he did the same thing 10 years ago and I stood with the wife for her marriage. He came home at the last court date to finish the D. He now tells his wife thank you for not giving up on me. I hope to hear that one day. IDK.
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
Stella, you KNOW this for sure? T2L has been very realistic about things and I applaud her efforts... for standing strong for her family... for her faith.
My husband lived with his OW and we were days away from divorce. We are now HAPPILY recovered and our marriage is stronger than it has ever been in 31 years.
Not every situation is hopeless.
Stella, you KNOW this for sure? T2L has been very realistic about things and I applaud her efforts... for standing strong for her family... for her faith.
My husband lived with his OW and we were days away from divorce. We are now HAPPILY recovered and our marriage is stronger than it has ever been in 31 years.
Not every situation is hopeless.
Thanks PM
I do feel that I have been realistic. I do not lie to myself or my children. I do have hope and continue to pray for him tho its pretty hard. But I fully know that it can go either way as even God will not force my H. I keep praying that God will move on him they way he did with Apostle Paul. That's all I can do and wait. My H needs to be humbled, and the Plan B is the only way. This needs to happen whether or not we recover so he can be a good example of humility to my son. I always felt that tho there were some minor problems and H had some underlying issues that we had something real. Funny thing is the ring tone on my cell phone for him was that old song, "Ain't nothing like the real thing baby, ain't nothing like the real thing". Every time he called that's what I would here. He said he was living a lie, mostly with church I think is the way he meant it. But I thought for the most part our life was real. IDK.
BTW everyone I added a link in my signature to an email address to where you can contact me off forum if ya have anything you want to run by me,
in support of my efforts to recover the marriage, of course...LOL
itstrying2live@gmail.com If you want to discourage me, I ask at this point don't bother.
Went for a great walk this morning. DD17 just left for the day and I am sure DS10 is going to be at friends for a while so I am going to pop on some music and clean up and head to the library. That book you guys recommended me came in. Its called This Present Darkness. I requested another book that came in to on eating healthy to improve your metabolism.
Anyways I am solo again today, feel okay about it right now its mostly the nights and bed time that make it hard.
Its lovely here in Cali. Its breezy and 75 degrees. We can literally wear shorts! I love it, I'm not much of a cold weather snow lover. I do love snow but mostly from looking out a window in a cabin LOL does that count?
Hey T2L, getting ready to take D15 out to the mall to get her a dress for the Valentine's dance. I will be flying solo that night. Anyone interested in having a get together? teehee.
Wow, stella was a little harsh but it is an opinion only. I have been reading some of these success stories (Princessmeggy for one) and it was a wild ride that you would think some of them would EVER reconcile and did.
It is not the waywards to say "enough", it is OUR choice when we say enough. Till then we will continue to support each other no matter what decision we make.
Get out in the sun. It is finally sunny here. Last few days have been dreary like my mood.
Take care.. whoa whoa.
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
I'm sorry for invading your thread Trying, although I have been following it and cheering for you. I have to say bull***t on Stella's' post. My DH and I have been reconciled for over 8, or is it 9 years and are very happy. He is now sickened by the thought of the things he did while no longer in the marital home. We are years and states away from all that now! You CAN SUCEED!
I'm sorry for invading your thread Trying, although I have been following it and cheering for you. I have to say bull***t on Stella's' post. My DH and I have been reconciled for over 8, or is it 9 years and are very happy. He is now sickened by the thought of the things he did while no longer in the marital home. We are years and states away from all that now! You CAN SUCEED!
Awe thanks.
Did you recover through SAA? I would love to read your story. Can you post the link to your thread here?
BTW your absolutely NOT invading, were all the family of the betrayed and that forever links us all together in my book. No one understands us like each other.
Please post anytime.
T2L:
I agree that Stella was a little harsh. I hate to hear what she'd say about my sitch. Sheezzzz.......
As for living with OW, I do believe that damage is done when that happens. My WH has lived off and on with OW 5 times this year. The first time, he was only gone a week and wanted to come back the second day. The second time, he was gone a month but had an apartment so didn't really live with her. Each of those time, I think me and the kids talked or saw WH almost every day.
From then on, he's lived with her for several months at a time. And each time, he pushes me and the kids further and further from his mind. Today is day 20 and he hasn't even tried to visit the kids once. And his texts to them are fewer and fewer. And I'm in Plan B, so no contact from me at all. I don't know if this is a good sign......
And, unfortunately, WH seemed more "brainwashed" each time he returned. I hate him "playing house" with her. And this time, he says he's going through with the D. I'm sure OW is happy as a clam since his lack of filing in the past has led to most of their breakups. She has a really nasty temper and is very, very jealous. Too bad I'm in Plan B because I'd love to mess with her by inviting WH over for a quiet talk.
I, too, have said that WH has a new family, and he gets angry at this comment. Why do waywards get angry over this when it is TRUE? They replace BS and kids with OW and kids.
As for keeping the faith, I totally understand. I've admitted to hoping that WH has an awakening via, if necessary, a lightning strike, car accident or heart attack. Something that won't kill him but will cause a major "jolt" to his selfish, entitlement lifestyle. Kind of like "It's a Wonderful Life."
But I know there is nothing you or I or our kids can do to get WH to end his waywardness. If that were the case, they would have never left in the first place. We need God to interfer in the A. We need OW's fangs (yes, she has really bad teeth) to start spewing venom. We need the bloom to fall off the rose. We need our WH's to wake up, smell the coffee, and ask "What the fu%$ am I doing here?"
Will that ever happen? Miracles happen everyday.
As for Valentine's Day -- Last year was real memorable. I found out that WH was at OW's house. I (and my sis and BIL) stormed over there. I banged on the door, pushed my way in, and made a scene asking "Where the fu*% is my husband?" OW called the cops right after she took a punch at me. WH was thrown up against the wall by my BIL after WH tried pushing me out the door. When we decided to leave (cops on the way), WH followed me out the door screaming that he was filing the next day (which didn't happen). I left only to discover that my glasses had fallen off during the scuffle and were still in OW's house. I jumped out of the car, ran back to OW's house, told WH to find my glasses, he went back in and found them, handed them to me, and I left. WH and OW "bonded" over the experience that night. As for me, I felt empowered. My kids even said "Way to go, mom" when I got back home that night. Text message war ensued between DS and WH. WH wanted DS to show him some "respect" instead of calling him a loser. I texted back that maybe he'll get respect from his new sons. Wow -- a year ago!!! Such fun.
And -- one week later -- WH stopped by to talk, leading to a makeout session, leading to SF. Ahhh...the early days after D-day when he really was a cake eater. Now he just wants OW and to hell with me!!!
So...Valentine's Day will always be remembered as the only time I've come face-to-face with OW or the "Jerry Springer" incident.
As for this year, maybe we Plan B'ers need to have a party. Have a few drinks and make up horror stories about how BH and OW are spending Valentine's Day together.
Holy Heart,
Whoa! So yes you are probably going to have a better Valentines Day or as I now call it "Single Awareness Day" LMAO!
Not sure what to do that day, can't really get together with some girls as they most likely will be with their spouses, for obvious reasons. Hmmm maybe I will ask the kiddies to book me a massage for that very day. I think I will do that.
I think that for any of us we have a 50/50 chance. Its easy to say well you only have a 50% chance that its not going to recover. Yup, but that also leaves a 50% chance that it may and add some serious prayer and I think it ups our chances.
I even have had friends who were divorced and then got remarried so even divorce doesn't necessarily mean the end as crazy as that sounds. I say if you want your marriage keep at it. No one can tell you when its time to move. That's where only you can follow your heart and be true to your heart. God speaks to the heart.
The statistics that affairages will last are really low anyways so I think in the end either way we do get the last laugh as mean as that sounds. My H has lived with OW since August but I feel like a nice daily dose of reality will hopefully break up the relationship, at least that is my hope. My H told the kids and I on April 23rd, packed up and left home to return to visit 3 days later.
At the visit he was so upset, he broke up with her and crushed the secret phone. I witnessed this all and it was all pre-SAA. He then was home for about 2 1/2 weeks. Sometime during that 2 1/2 weeks he went back to her and lied all over again. I didn't know about SAA, and I would have known about the withdrawal symptoms if I had. Anyways what he said to me during those 1st 2-3 days home when he was half way normal was that "its like your in this fog and this fantasy and you think that its possible and that it can work but then you realize that it can't". But unfortunately the fog rolled back in and he went back to fantasy land.
I guess it basically comes down to how long can you hold on to the love in the midst of your spouse living with OW/OM, threat of divorce and TIME. Or course what I really appreciate about Dr. Harley and other programs it that he doesn't just have you living in limbo. I like the fact that he says if 2 years from the START of PB they have not come home then he recommends divorce. I think its just enough time and not too much. I don't know that I have that 2 years in me, don't truly feel that I do.
I think with your H waffling so much the PB is good. Did you do a Plan A? At least with you totally dark, he can put that pressure on OW to meet those needs and they usually are gonna fail at it.
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
Stella, T2L has done an incredible job with Plan A and B and is rather well-versed on Dr. H's info on affairs for the short time she has been here.
If you are against fighting affairs and rebuilding marriages, why are you on MB? If you aren't against fighting affairs, why would you post such a discouraging message to a BS who has demonstrated the strength and courage to FOLLOW THROUGH with the plans?
I don't get it.
So here's the scoop. H contacts DD17 this evening and says, "So do want me to come over tomorrow to take care of your mom's gifts for her B-day?".
Well my Bday is Monday and since my H's job just recently went to 2 times a month payday with no advance notice finances are really tight. Basically there is nothing for the kids to be able to do anything for me.
He must have either borrowed some money or had money on a credit card. Anyways I guess he will be picking up DD17 to go shopping for me, not sure if DS10 will go or not. I'm surprised he even made the effort actually.
It is not likely he will be coming back since he is living with her. Does he want a divorce soon or does he want two families?
Does he support her also now? Is she pregnant yet with his child?
I hope you have a drop dead date on when to go to plan D. He ain't coming home.
((((Stellakat)))))
[color:#FF0000]HMMMM SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE IS MISERABLE....
YEAH I THINK IF YOU WANNA COME ON THIS THREAD YOU SHOULD HAVE SOMETHING DECENT TO SAY.. CUZ IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU COME ON HERE YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY AND I BELIEVE THIS WEBSITE IS FOR CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM.... I UNDERSTANDING YOUR HURTING BUT YOU SHOULDN'T BE COMING ONTO MY MOMS THREAD BECAUSE SHES ("""OBVIOUSLY"""") SHES HURTING TOO...
TELLING MY MOM THAT MY FATHER IS GOING TO HAVE A BABY WITH THAT W+HORE ISNT REALLY GOOD FOR HER TO HEAR EITHER SO IT WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU DIDNT SAY THINGS LIKE THAT TO HER OR ANYONE ON THIS THREAD..
LIKE I SAID I UNDERSTAND YOUR HURTING BUT JUST BECAUSE YOUR UPSET YOU DONT NEED TO GO MAKE SOMEONE ELSE FEEL WORSE...
I DONT LIKE ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO SAY... SO IF YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY JUST BECASUE YOUR HURTING DONT COME ON HERE AT ALL... BECAUSE YOUR JUST MAKING ME PRETTY P*SSED OFF...
AND I DONT WANT TO HERE THAT MY DAD MIGHT HAVE A BABY WITH THAT W+HORE AND I COME ON HERE AND I DONT WANT TO HERE THAT!!!
... KK
THANKS SWEETY...
[/color]
Holyheart, thanks for giving me a laugh with the Jerry springer Valentine's day. I had a couple of good visuals. Needed that laugh.
T2L, well at least your H is making that effort for your birthday to help the kids out. Small baby step.
Hey T2L,
hi you
Well might get my head chopped off but I made the effort to read Stella's threads today, and I was surprised, she is not a BW. She has acknowledged that she is addicted to MB (aren't we all??
) and that she often finds that although she wants to help others and has a helping heart, she gets frustrated at situations that she feels are not moving on.
Perhaps this is one of those times.
Stella, we appreciate you have wisdom and experiences we don't. However at this time, coments like you gave are not helpful to T2L or her daughter. Perhaps it would be best if you refrained from posting on her thread, OK?
Hi T2L DD, yup that post from stell was upsetting. Why would anyone want to be here if they did not have to. Her opinion was extreme and unwarranted.
Keep the faith
Kimmy--tried to email you but it didn't work. You need to go back a few pages and edit a quote. If you can't find it email me. Mine hasn't changed. I'll be back later today.
tl
I think I figured out which one. I couldn't edit, but asked the mods to.
I plead insanity due to migraine.
Sorry.
I just wanna smack your WH...
Get in line
behind ME!
I'm sorry for invading your thread Trying, although I have been following it and cheering for you. I have to say bull***t on Stella's' post. My DH and I have been reconciled for over 8, or is it 9 years and are very happy. He is now sickened by the thought of the things he did while no longer in the marital home. We are years and states away from all that now! You CAN SUCEED!
Awe thanks.
Did you recover through SAA? I would love to read your story. Can you post the link to your thread here?
BTW your absolutely NOT invading, were all the family of the betrayed and that forever links us all together in my book. No one understands us like each other.
Please post anytime.
Not every SUCCESS story has the same KIND of "happy" ending.
The key to success is to get to a PERSONAL point of being okay...no matter what.
We are working with T2L to gain her sense of "right" with WHATEVER decision SHE makes for her family.
No matter what, though, she must heal from this - whether he comes home or not. That is what WE ALL realize during this process - that we HAVE to move forward from this because whether we like it or not, it's there, it's a tangible part of the road that is our lives. We CHOOSE if it is a chasm or a divot, and whether it'll define her or become just a little part of the character that is T2L.
And doom and gloom predictions are NOT helpful for her at this point in her life. She is in the process of getting okay for the next step on her roadway....and whether he comes back or not, it's gonna be a doozy.
Let her move through the processes she HAS to for herself.
Good morning Fam!
Well I woke this morning and my Pastor had sent me a text saying he wanted me to come see this guest speaker. I was not planning on going but called him and told him that I will come but that I would rather come right at 10 because I'm not ready for all the questions.
He said I will have you and DS10 sit up front with me, So...I'm going but kicking and screaming. He asked how I was and i said not good, I have been angry at God for allowing all this to happen in my life. He said I understand I have been there and its a place that everyone has to go thru. He I am very glad you are coming and I love you. {{{{Sigh}}}} I am probably going to be a sobbing mess i can already feel it.
We have several people coming in this month that were from the things that went on in Lakeland Florida. Anyways I have not been to church at all this year i wasn't really planning to going til next month. Anyways be leaving here in the hour.
DD17 will be with her dad....
He asked how I was and i said not good, I have been angry at God for allowing all this to happen in my life.
I hope I was helpful in bringing you to this point. REALITY is important in your healing. Grief takes many stages. Denial, howling pain, anger, and finally,, acceptance.
Both you and your daughter have to go thru these stages. We all do. I dont envy you but I have been there in grief many times myself.
I like to bring the other side of reality to the table. It helps push the growth process. You guys can be mad at me if you want, it is OK, make me the target of your anger. At least, the very least, that anger will FINALLY COME OUT and quit damaging your insides.
Stella-
I'd like to respond to this:
REALITY is important in your healing...
I like to bring the other side of reality to the table. It helps push the growth process.
If you really do understand the grief process, then you know it usually takes the skills of a qualified counselor to help guide the process -or "push" it-as you put it. Everyone goes through grief in their own way, and at their own pace even with the help of an IC. You also would know that focusing your anger in the wrong place doesn't "get it out". It just misdirects it for awhile.
I'd also like to say something about your advice to those who are struggling with trying to recovery their marriages or just themselves after infidelity. Your advice may be well meaning, but you haven't been in these shoes so you really don't understand what a BS is going through.
It's like someone giving a chemo patient advice on what to do with the many symptoms and effects of the treatment when they have never experienced it nor are they a professional in the field of cancer treatment. I know, I went through both (betrayal and chemo) in the same year.
When I was doing chemo, it was the advice of those who had gone through it before that was the most helpful. After all, they understood the cracked fingertips and mouth sores. They understood the tingly skin, joint pain and fatigue. They had solutions for the metallic taste in my mouth and what to do when just going to my treatments made me feel sick to my stomach. I also appreciated the advice of the experts-my oncologist and the nurses-because they had studied to know this disease and its treatment in order to help those who were coping with it.
Friends and family who never had walked in my shoes NEVER tried to give me advice to help me with my treatments because they didn't have the experience to give me any advice. They simply supported me by showing up with prayers, meals, calling, and understanding when I was too tired to take their calls.
That's just my opinion. Sorry to T/J T2L.
He asked how I was and i said not good, I have been angry at God for allowing all this to happen in my life.
I hope I was helpful in bringing you to this point. REALITY is important in your healing. Grief takes many stages. Denial, howling pain, anger, and finally,, acceptance.
Both you and your daughter have to go thru these stages. We all do. I dont envy you but I have been there in grief many times myself.
I like to bring the other side of reality to the table. It helps push the growth process. You guys can be mad at me if you want, it is OK, make me the target of your anger. At least, the very least, that anger will FINALLY COME OUT and quit damaging your insides.
Stella, T2L's marriage is NOT dead. It is not time to grieve and move on. She's in the midst of the biggest fight of her life, and your advising her to surrender.
The time may come for that. But it is not right now.
She is fighting this affair just as Dr. H says to by executing an excellent Plan A followed by a very dark Plan B.
Are you here to help support her following Dr. H's methods to fight this affair and restore her family if at all possible? THIS IS T2L's stated goal.
I always like differing opinions. Then the poster can see the whole spectrum. But the truth is that most marriages recover from infidelity. That is just the way it goes.
My WH lived with the OW for over 3 years, we divorced, and less than 2 weeks after the divorce, they broke up. He has spent the last year trying to reconcile.
I, too, enjoy hearing differing opinions, however, there are certain ways to say/write things in a forum, just like in RL. I think that people forget that sometimes since a person isn't right in front of them. There are good, proactive ways to get your point across and then there are ways that are designed to be REACTIVE and are just plain demanding, demeaning, and cruel. I see it time and time again, here.
We need to help others here who are in pain. Help them help themselves and not dwell on too many things. Delicacy and diplomacy is a good thing.
Man, you can tell I'm a southern belle
Not every SUCCESS story has the same KIND of "happy" ending.
Exactly!!!!!!!!
I think our poster Bugsmom... and several others of course, are shining examples of this. They has reached exemplary levels of personal recovery. Alot of people here have traveled the rocky road we were all detoured on with determination and have learned self confidence. I think TTL is well on her way down the same path.
TTL, I wish I could post my whole story, but after too many years and several forum changes the posts were lost. But, I think you are doing wonderfully. Be safe and go with God.
Johnstwin and all...I see your points. I suppose I really dislike these people who have affairs. It is my personal opinion that I almost hate them for what they have done to others they claim to have loved....
JT, I have been thru cancer also and posted many times on the BCO boards. Others experiances did help me. I understand now....
I wish my investment advisor had told me of the "downside" before I lost 40% in the stock market also.
But yes she is trying all she can to recover the marriage. That is all she can do even though I would have given up long ago I am not her.
You guys are right. I do not have the experiance to tell everyone how much I dislike the waywards and not to take them back. Just because I consider a wayward personh a creep does not mean the BS should discard them.
Also, I am all for people becoming thier strongest and best selves. No matter what.
Johnstwin and all...I see your points. I suppose I really dislike these people who have affairs. It is my personal opinion that I almost hate them for what they have done to others they claim to have loved....
JT, I have been thru cancer also and posted many times on the BCO boards. Others experiances did help me. I understand now....
I wish my investment advisor had told me of the "downside" before I lost 40% in the stock market also.
But yes she is trying all she can to recover the marriage. That is all she can do even though I would have given up long ago I am not her.
You guys are right. I do not have the experiance to tell everyone how much I dislike the waywards and not to take them back. Just because I consider a wayward personh a creep does not mean the BS should discard them.
Well said, Stella. I think we all thought that about waywards until it happened to us. I know I did.
Also, I am all for people becoming thier strongest and best selves. No matter what.
You got it, dar!
Exactly!
T2L is still a chrysalis. He wings are comin.
Johnstwin and all...I see your points. I suppose I really dislike these people who have affairs. It is my personal opinion that I almost hate them for what they have done to others they claim to have loved....
JT, I have been thru cancer also and posted many times on the BCO boards. Others experiances did help me. I understand now....
I wish my investment advisor had told me of the "downside" before I lost 40% in the stock market also.
But yes she is trying all she can to recover the marriage. That is all she can do even though I would have given up long ago I am not her.
You guys are right. I do not have the experience to tell everyone how much I dislike the waywards and not to take them back. Just because I consider a wayward person a creep does not mean the BS should discard them.
Atta girl Stella!
I can see where you are coming from as far as disliking the BS, shoot I do too! I don't even know if I can explain what its like to be a BS.
Ya know the bible says that when you marry you become one. Imagine being cut in half fully alive, with no pain killer, but guess what you don't get to die you continue to live. You continue to drip blood and your fully exposed too. Your like the living dead and now you have to learn to function and carry on and provide care for your children with half of yourself. Well you can imagine you would feel like a freak with half a body, probably not feel normal or even accepted. You cant do things the same anymore, you cant see the same anymore, nothing can be the same, your cut in half. You have now learn to live a new, but with only half of you. You feel the phantom limb thing because you are not divorced yet and your not married either, your betrayed, but you still feel your phantom marriage. Its hell really because on earth no one can be closer to you than the other half of your body but its the very thing that cut you.
Thank you tho for being understanding and open to hear the views, I really admire that you have the ability to take that into consideration.
Hi T2L-
I've been gone since I posted earlier. The sun actually came out (which has been rare here lately in the Pacific Northwest) so I went hiking. It almost got up to 50!
I just wanted to tell you that you've been on my heart today. I know how hard it is to be on this journey, and how dark it can seem. But I also know that God doesn't waste our pain. He's in it with us. He will use it for good when we let Him. He started working to make it good even before this all happened.
Let me try to explain what I mean with a little bit of my story.
My XH left me 3 months after his EA was exposed and he lost his ministry position (2nd career). That EA eventually became a PA, but that's a different story. Five weeks after he left, I found a lump and was diagnosed with breast cancer. The night before I met with my surgeon, I stood outside looking at the stars and asked God why. It was so much, so fast. Now, here's just the first time He showed He had been involved in preparing me for this, even before all this happened.
I taught AP English for 8 years and always started the year with the book of Job because it is an ancient story that many biblical allusions in English Literature come from, and it also deals with an issue common to all humans-the problem of human suffering. I always loved teaching the Bible as Literature knowing that even though I had to follow certain guidelines, God promises that His Word will never come back void.
That night, looking up at Orion, the words God spoke to Job in the whirlwind came to my mind:
"Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?" (Job 38:31)
The words went straight to my heart because in that moment I realized one of the things God was showing me through the words He spoke to Job was that He was in control at a level way greater than I could ever understand. I realized that God could see all of eternity in a glance and He was holding this moment in my life in His hands too. I was able to trust that God was in control.
I just wanted to share this with you and let you know that I am praying for you. We really don't know what our future holds, but because we know the one who holds our future also holds all of eternity-yet cares about us in this moment of time-we can trust that He is doing something, even when we don't see it or feel it.
Just a quick PS for Stella-how long have you been a survivor of cancer? I'll be 2 years from chemo ending at the end of March.
T2L, not to get off these other subjects but let me say first from central time.
Haaappppppppppyyyyyyyyyy bbbbbbiiiiiiiirrrrrrrrrttttttthhhhhhdaaaayyyy to you,
happy birthday to you, happy birthday dear T2L.........happy birthday to you my friend.
Will catch up with you tomorrow. take care
Okay I am going to get an a$s whoopin. Get your 2x4's now. Here goes. Keep in mind my Birthday is tomorrow.
So I finally went back to church today, i cried my [censored] off just about the whole time. It was good but I was emotionally empty when i got home but felt like some weight had lifted.
so I go home and DD17 says when I get home from the shopping trip with Dad I need to talk to you. I say ok. She comes home with burgers and fries that her and dad had brought for DS10 and I. She drops them off and then says I'm going to take dad back to his car. I told her that she must meet him somewhere that i do not want to see his car when I pull up from church.
So she drops him off and says, well I want to tell you what happend. I say ok. She says well after shopping dad takes me to lunch and we start to talk and he starts to cry in the resturant and he says that he is very embarrassed by what he has done, it was completely stupid to which she said well do you miss mom? He says yes. She said you know you could come home and be happy dont you and he says yes but if I break the lease at the apt they will charge me 2500 dollars and dd17 says well the family is more important than the 2500 and he agrees. He says that I have some struggles and I dont think I can come back becasue it will be too painful for your mom. He says I never went dancing I lied to make your mom jealous. He says that he wants to talk to me and at least tell me happy birthday. So he called and yes I answered.
Well the conversation went about 30 mins. He stated that it would be easier to communicate especially dealing with the kids and I ask is that the reason for the call then its for the kids? He says well no absolutely not. The he goes into defending the 2 family memebers who support him and how he cant understand why I turned his other family members against him to which i respond I have not, i have only said I love you and that i want my marriage. He then says well why can't we at least just email its only words on a screen and i reply well for me those words have come from the hands of my H so its painful. H says nothing to me about what he said to dd17. I say well I am not interested in a friendship and I have chosen not to speak to you because of the absolute pain it causes me to hear from you. I said when we talked for those 2 months (Plan A) i tried very hard to remain close to you in hopes you would return to the marriage but I could no longer take the pain of you leaving my home each night and crawling into bed with her.
He says well the visitation is not always easy for me to meet and i can't wait for an email to try and change. I say well I am sure I can get a phone number for you to which the IM's can get to me faster if you want to call instead, to which he denied. I say well I will continue to give you important information to you concerning the kids I have no desire for a friendship i want the marriage and I am willing to work at it and I still have love for you. He says well how can you I mean are you sure you are not protecting your image do you really love me? I say is that a joke? I say when I married you i made a committment to you for better or worse in sickness and in health til death do us part. I am keeping my committment. He says well I had kept my committment up until now, but I am sure it doesnt count.
I say i have not prevented any access to your children your son is mad at you right now and I really could not real all that email to him as it was not appropriate for his age. He says well thats why i said i would not discuss this with him and its really gone too far and he shouldn't even know her name he should just know something like girlfriend.
Finally I say well I am going to continue to use the IM's as I have no interest in a friendship, I want my marriage and am willing to work hard on it but I cannot make anyone love me or want to be with me. I stated that I am trying to hold on to my love for you and each time you do things it knocks down the love I have and one day I may not have any left. I say I am a wonderful person, a person of character and beautiful person and I don't deserve to have to talk to you under these circumstances and I know I am worth it.
He says well for what its worth Happy Birthday and I replied well its not worth much it would be worth more if my H was home and I said goodbye.
Well folks, I am sorry I feel that I have let myself down and you all too. I am agry at myself for taking that call after 9 weeks of absolute darkness. I have learned a huge lesson and realize now that I will never ever do that again. He will now have to meet ALL 6 conditions for me to accept him back.
THe only thing I can think of that was ok was that i restated the PBL that I want the marriage, I am willing to work hard, I love you but I need to protect my love as its getting harder to hold on to it, this is not controll and I would like you to understand the pain it causes me to be in contact with you even including emails and that I will continue using the IM's and that the visitation schedule still stands and that I will email you actual dates that i have in front of me so he can see exact dates and said goodbye. I think by hearing from me exactly what the PBL said was good, he heard it straight from me and i pretty much repeated my PBL.
I do not feel sad and I did not allow myself to have expectations and now i feel even more empowered to never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever come out of PB again unless he pretty much crawls and meets all 6 conditions immediately.
I actually think that he thought since I didnt do PA until 5 months after dday because i had not found SAA, that i was going into another PA and as soon as I said I am not interested in a friendship the tone changed. I am freakin pissed that I may have met a need and have prolonged things but this taught me a big lesson. Unless the communication starts with I will do what ever it takes DO NOT take the call. Oddly I don't feel super drained in the LB I feel more angry and determined, I am hoping 3 days from now it doesnt hit me.
So I apologize to my IM's for taking the call as I do not want to waste your time or efforts. I restated to him that i will still be using you.
So go ahead let em rip, I am already ripping myself. I feel sicker that I took that call, more than all the crying this month. I wanna barf but not from LB drainage. I feel like I wanna barf like I just cheapened myself and sold out
God what a horrible feeling. I only need to feel that once. I don't think I could be a repeat breaker of PB, it feel so cheap and gross. I am worth more than that and I know it. Okay I need to stop my stomache is really turning.
Let em rip and feedback if ya want. Again really sorry y'all. I hate myself right now.
Oh honey, dont hate yourself, we all make mistakes.
Yes it was a fracture in your AWESOME plan B, but I have seen worse, it'll be ok.
:twobyfour:
What's done is done. Sure you met some needs but you also stood your ground. You stood up for yourself, you told him you are WORTH IT (and you are!!!!), you let him know there is a path home, and you reinforced the idea that you are in Plan B not to spite him, not to play him, but to protect yourself.
He has it all in writing, of course, but since he spoke to you it's good that all he heard was reinforcement of Plan B.
Remember when you were worried that he'd wrap himself up and leave himself on the porch at Christmas? This is similar. He used your birthday as an excuse to contact you directly. He played the sentiment card.
Don't beat yourself up, there's absolutely no point. Just remember that the next time he wants to speak to you, instead of calling you directly there should be a message coming to you from the IMs saying "I'm willing to do whatever you want".
Consider it a lesson learned - this really is NOT the end of the world. Hugs to you, and please don't feel badly about this lapse. Just take it, learn from it, and move forward.
Well, from what you wrote, I was kinda thinking he was calling to see about making things work, so if I were you I would have taken the call, too, in case it really was him saying he wanted to come home. So don't beat yourself up.
If anything, what you did reinforced to him that you're no longer the person he felt he could manipulate. Probably has him pretty scared.
Oops! Forgot!
Happy Birthday!
May it be the start of your best year of life ever!
First,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!No 2x4s from me... (the one who did everything wrong).
I don't know what to think of his conversation with DD. Was he being honest with her? If his conversation with you resembled anything like his conversation with her, I would say yes. But since it didn't, I almost think his conversation with DD was a way to get you to speak to him. He KNEW DD would encourage you to talk to him if he cried and said the right things.
My FWH also cried to his children and admitted he was wrong, but when we would talk, all I would hear was what was wrong with "us"... not that he wanted to come back. Strangely though, it was my oldest DS who he reached out to when the dam finally broke. My oldest DS called him one night and asked him to go to a movie instead of going out drinking that night. My DH says that was the catalyst of his turn around.
I'm hoping that your WH's talk with his DD stirred something in him that he's just not willing to admit yet.
He says well how can you I mean are you sure you are not protecting your image do you really love me? I say is that a joke? I say when I married you i made a committment to you for better or worse in sickness and in health til death do us part. I am keeping my committment. He says well I had kept my committment up until now, but I am sure it doesnt count.
His conversation with you shows that he's not ready yet to admit anything. My WH also doubted that I REALLY loved him and that I was just into the appearance of marriage. He probably feels shame and wonders how on earth you could still want him after all he's done.
It's sad that he got yours and his DD's hopes up...
If this comes up again, the thing to do is to get word to the IMs that he is wanting to talk and let them screen his motives before he gets another opportunity to talk to you.
I wish there was a way to do the same for DD... but I fear after this, she won't believe him anymore.
I still just wanna smack him!
I think your wh needs to know that there are marriages that survive this (and much, much worse).
Dunno how to get it across to him.
And don't beat yourself up a moment more.
We all have weak moments.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
I think your wh needs to know that there are marriages that survive this (and much, much worse).
ITA! He also needs to know that he has not passed the point of no return with God.
One of the things I prayed while my DH was gone is that God would put people in his path that would reinforce the fact that he was still loved... by God... and his family.
I think your wh needs to know that there are marriages that survive this (and much, much worse).
ITA! He also needs to know that he has not passed the point of no return with God.
One of the things I prayed while my DH was gone is that God would put people in his path that would reinforce the fact that he was still loved... by God... and his family.
Well because of our church back ground he understands that its by what Jesus did on the cross and NOT what he does that makes him saved, that's the hard part. So it's kinda an abuse of grace and forgiveness if that can be so. But I forgot to mention that he said I just don't want the church "organization" anymore during our conversation. So what then?
Ya know I don't know what to think either, I mean why would you say all that to your daughter and then make no mentions of it either?
I kept my voice very low and calm, i tried not to show any glee in his call. I hope I didn't commit any LB's. I might have, I asked him so are you with her or what? I say you keep mentioning this how do you know I'm with her to the 3 of us. HE says well why would you want to know that, I say well why wouldn't I and he says what good would it do for you to know and I say well I was hoping you would be honest for once, and he says it won't do you any good to know that. I almost felt like there might have been a possibility its not strong but he didn't want to admit it to me.
Not sure if I mentioned it in DD convo but he said, I go to the movies alone, i go to the beach alone, i go to San dingo peir and I am always alone. Then in my convo with him he says well I like being alone and not answering to anyone and its probably not right, and i say its not, but I just don't want to be bothered by anyone a lot of times. Man, he is so weird sometimes.
But yes he thought I loved him to keep up appearances and so I could look good. I just said what? Are you joking? And then asked him, what did i say you the day you left my home, he says I know, but how could you love me after all i've done i don't understand it, and I replied well you have never understood real love because you love always had conditions. Is that and LB? I said if the kids and didn't respond well then gave us silent treatment and made us feel bad or if it was me you had angry outburst and he agreed.
Oh yead he told DD17 in their convo also that he thinks that friends are the ones who are telling me to do all this and that he thought it was all preplanned. I made sure to mention in our convo that I tried very hard to be close to you, it wasnt easy with you going home to her every night and that it was so painful but I told 3 times i would let you know when I couldn't do it anymore.
I might have, I asked him so are you with her or what? I say you keep mentioning this how do you know I'm with her to the 3 of us. HE says well why would you want to know that, I say well why wouldn't I and he says what good would it do for you to know and I say well I was hoping you would be honest for once, and he says it won't do you any good to know that. I almost felt like there might have been a possibility its not strong but he didn't want to admit it to me.
Not sure if I mentioned it in DD convo but he said, I go to the movies alone, i go to the beach alone, i go to San dingo peir and I am always alone. Then in my convo with him he says well I like being alone and not answering to anyone and its probably not right, and i say its not, but I just don't want to be bothered by anyone a lot of times. Man, he is so weird sometimes.
:crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy: :crosseyedcrazy:
I bet he's NOT with her (or it's going badly) but he's just too proud to admit it.
I wonder if he thinks that you'll DEMAND that he goes to church if he comes home. Would that be an absolute boundary with you?
Being a preacher's kid, there have been times in my life when I've grown weary with the church, but I always return because it helps me to recharge to deal during the week.
Just throwing this out there... but, could he have been trying to make it look like HE is trying for reconciliation to your daughter but You are the one impeding it?
Well, at any rate, back to Plan B. Don't make the mistake I did by constantly breaking it. I kept hoping that WS was going to have something new to say. He would call me at work and pretend that he had something to discuss, but it always turned out the same - he was continuing with the OW.
{{{{LIL Neakie Pooh}}}}}
Oh my gosh Thank you so much for the present!!!!!
How so very sweet of you!!!!
I feel so very blessed today that I have all of my new friends on this forum. Y'all already know it, but I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!! Every post from you all is like a super boost and a shot of strength to me. This place is the only true place at any kind of recovery whether personal or marital. God so totally led me here. i mean I read several books but this is the place he sent me to. So glad you all took the time to help me and everyone else.
I seriously would not have made it this far, or at least sanely, not even sure if I am still sane
LOL, without hearing from everyone here.
So, yesterday H took DD17 shopping for my b-day, not sure how he did it. She said he used a credit card. But anyways the kids got me an hour and half massage today at 4:30 I am so stinking excited !!!!! Ok sorry they bought me a new purse-Love it!!! And bought me a gray eye shadow trio-Yippee!!!! Sorry okay now you here my overly girly side if that's possible? Did I mention I LOVE BEING A GIRL!!!! And then I got a lil pressie from the most famous, super talented Neak(BTW I LOVE READING)!
Kids are still sleeping since it the holiday, its abt 9:15 here, so I think I will crawl back in to bed and read for bit while its quiet.
I love my Birthday!!!!
Just throwing this out there... but, could he have been trying to make it look like HE is trying for reconciliation to your daughter but You are the one impeding it?
Ya know I did ask DD17 why do you think he said all that to you and mentioned none of it to me and she got a really puzzled look on her face and says IDK.
I thought maybe the fog cleared just a little, but at the sound of my voice it dropped right back down since he is not fully broken of the pride and entitlement. I mean that's my thoughts, not sure they are accurate.
He does NOT cry in public,let alone cry period, so it is out of character for him. He's a muscular guy, shaved head and goatee, so he doesn't look like a crier and he has rarely cried during our marriage. I can count on 1 hand all the times he's cried.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!What are you, like 21??
Well, at any rate, back to Plan B. Don't make the mistake I did by constantly breaking it. I kept hoping that WS was going to have something new to say. He would call me at work and pretend that he had something to discuss, but it always turned out the same - he was continuing with the OW.
Oh heck NO! I seriously can't tell you how cheap listening to him made me feel. It literally made me feel nauseous. I just can't explain to you that it made me feel like I lowered my value. No person is so low that you should have to even listen to it...ick ick ick. And I told him I am worth it, I am a great person, with a big heart, and I am beautiful inside and out. He bess wise up this man.....
that old T2L that would apologize for everything and appease everything to keep the joy in the house is gone. Never again, my biggest fear that I EVER had I am now living in so I have nothing to lose. Financial destruction does worry me a bit, but I had nightmares for 24 years that he would do this to me. That's how big a fear it was. So sorry i will NOT lower my standard, to late for that and I'm not into self abuse LMAO!
I don't have the time or energy to hear anything but I will do what ever you want and agree to all conditions. He mentioned the relationship a few times and I will not allow that again as there is no point until he says yes yes yes to everything. So No I am not going back and forth. I learn pretty quickly, this was a 1 lesson learning curve.
Oh yeah guys forgot this part of the convo. He says well you know I mean most guys pack up everything and leave the wife and kids on the curb with nothing but I didn't do that....This guy thinks he's doing us favors by still providing for us.
He then says well you guys say you don't want me for money but then when you have none you are yelling you need it. I say well you know I have to care for our kids. Plus I stayed with you for almost 20 years and you were broke the entire time. I stayed by you when you had lint in your pockets but it wasn't until you got money the last 2 years that you left me. So now it wasn't for the money.
First things first...
Happy Birthday!!! Second: Maybe I'm just not a good BS detector, but I worry that he is just about ready to come home but doesn't see a clear path home - maybe his pride is in the way, or he really doesn't believe you'll take him back, or he doesn't believe you really love him and y'all will be able to build a good marriage if he comes back.
I know you spelled out the terms for his return in your PBL but he's notorious for ignoring things like the PBL and the IMs. I wonder, would it be a good idea for DD to learn to repeat "Mom still loves you and you are very welcome to come back home as soon as you give up all contact with the Sea Hag" whenever he starts saying the things he said? Sorta like she was saying "IDK you'll have to ask the IMs" to other things he said.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!!!What are you, like 21??
Awe thanks luv!!!! Yeah, Yeah, that's the ticket 21, I sure am, I am 21....21+8!!!!
I wish! Man next year its the big 40! I think I'll start planning my party now!
Hey we need to suggest a Happy Birthday icon to the people who create all of them. How can we do that?
First things first...
Happy Birthday!!! Second: Maybe I'm just not a good BS detector, but I worry that he is just about ready to come home but doesn't see a clear path home - maybe his pride is in the way, or he really doesn't believe you'll take him back, or he doesn't believe you really love him and y'all will be able to build a good marriage if he comes back.
I know you spelled out the terms for his return in your PBL but he's notorious for ignoring things like the PBL and the IMs. I wonder, would it be a good idea for DD to learn to repeat "Mom still loves you and you are very welcome to come back home as soon as you give up all contact with the Sea Hag" whenever he starts saying the things he said? Sorta like she was saying "IDK you'll have to ask the IMs" to other things he said.
Once i figured out, which took only about 5 minutes, that this call was bogus, I made sure to hit and repeat all the PB point and made sure that I said, that i still loved him and that I want the marriage, I am willing to work hard for it and that I am trying to hold on to every little drop of love I have for him. So he says well how can you say you love me and then say you are holding on the the love? I say well if someone continues to hurt you and hurt you and hurt you it hits and beats down the love that you do have until some point there may be none left.
Yes DD17 did say you know you could come home and be happy right and that's when he mentioned the crap about getting charged to break the lease. Yeah but DD17 has mentioned a few times, I think during all the Christmas madness and crap he pulled that mom would love to see you and have you around but you need to have no contact with the Sea Hag and he says I can talk to whoI want to....LOL....your not the boss a me!
Happy Birthday!
And VERY WELL DONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Even the great SH recommends a judicious breaking of PB every few months, usually something very simple like a note, letting the WS know the door to the M is still open when they're ready to give up the side-fluff. (My words not his, lol.)
IMO, this would only be a bad thing if you were too weak to go back into a solid PB, and kept peeking out. I know you're strong enough, so this was a good strategic move. If there's a next time, simply don't answer and send a note.
Now sure, you probably met a few needs, but sending him the recommended note would do that, too. Any downside in perhaps prolonging the A very slightly, I think is offset by having the path home repeated to him, and by seeing firsthand that you're different. I.e. not crying, begging, apologizing, etc.
So put the barf bucket away. Great job!
In my inexperianced opinion, I think you did right letting him talk once in a while to GAUGE where he is truly at.
What he said here shows he is not at the point of remorse at all.
He says well I had kept my committment up until now, but I am sure it doesnt count.
What????? The idiot had sex with and is living with the HAG and has the gall to state the above?
WOW, he is not ready to come home, be forgiven, be remorseful, or anything. What an idiot he is still in the fogg.
Sorry! For your pain.
So, yesterday H took DD17 shopping for my b-day... the kids got me an hour and half massage today at 4:30 I am so stinking excited !!!!!
Change the date and time. You don't want WH knowing where you'll be and when.
Other than that... Many Happy Returns!!!
I know you're smart enough not to do what I did. I broke Plan B multiple times, always when it seemed he was "getting it".
That is how WS's lure you in. The first time, I referred him to the Plan B letter. He said "what letter?" Duh, I'd only written him one letter in 5 years.
As you know, he tried to move back home right before Christmas. In fact he had half of his stuff back in my home. When I asked him if the OW was out of the picture, he told me he would do it when he was sure that I would take him back.
Then there were several episodes of NC with the OW. One lasted all day! He came over and said she was out of the picture, and her hubby comfirmed that she had been in bed all day crying. When I asked WH to write a NC letter, he refused, saying it would be pointless.
He looked for ways to give me hope just to continue having contact with me. Many times, I thought maybe he'd not understood, or forgotten the Plan B letter.
But you know what? After our divorce was final and the affair ended, he came to me with "you said we could be together when there is no contact with the OW". And he constantly referred to what I'd written in the Plan B letter. So he KNEW all along what he had to do, just refused to do it.
[quote=Stellakat]In my inexperianced opinion, I think you did right letting him talk once in a while to GAUGE where he is truly at.
/quote]
Heheheheheheheheh.....Stellakat thinks you can gauge anything a waynerd says!
Personally, I don't think waywards believe anything they say.
I think it was quite easy to gauge where he is at. He wants to come home, he thinks about it, but he's not ready to give in. He doesn't want it badly enough. I also saw that he still feels he can manipulate, between mother and daughter.
T2L {{{hugs}}} no 2x4s from me. Look at my track record.
Happy happy birthday. Glad you are getting a massage. Great gift.
You know you have support here. Remember we are "humans", and we make human mistakes. I give you credit for going this long.
I am praying, chase him, break him, save him.
Stole this cake from another thread
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.............I...I
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[color:#FFFFFF].....~~~~~~~~~~~~~[/color]Happy Birthday T2L
HAPPY BIRTHDAY SIS! (sister in Christ, that is--I was the only girl in my family--I love having sisters now!) You got a BOOK, didn't you?! I can't wait to hear your thoughts as you read it. Neak is one great writer!
Neak, thanks for sharing what Dr. H says about Plan B. I had never seen that before, but it makes sense to me. However, I can see how women who have a difficult time even getting completely dark could not handle coming out of it and going back to dark. That's not T2L though. She's a strong, determined one.
It sounds like T2L handled it perfectly by confirming that yes there is still a way home, but it won't be there forever. Yes, the rules are still the same. When you are ready to live by them, I hope I still love you.
Enjoy that massage, T2L. Pampering yourself during WS's affair is very important! Take full advantage of any pampering opportunities. That's my official advice
It is SH's advice during counseling. I have heard this via more than one friend.
Since the one-on-one counseling is on a per-case basis, I'm sure there are many cases where he wouldn't recommend lifting the curtain on PB at all.
On this board, I think we should play it much safer in our advice, so I don't just go around recommending everyone send the note every few months, BUT if contact does occur, it can be a good thing as long as it's handled properly. And in this case, I think answering was the right thing to do, and that T2L did beautifully with it.
The same thing if there is an unavoidable meeting, say if a child had serious trouble at school, and both parents had to meet with the principal. In a case like that, the BS should be pleasant, not just ignore the WS, look good and smell good, etc. Then as soon as it's over, right back to a totally dark PB.
I'm sure a key aspect to making it affective is that the BS has been working a great Plan B those first several weeks, just as T2L has done.
Had a great bday, can you believe that? I can't even believe I said it either LOL. Took a nap today, which is rare for me and then went for my hour and a half massage at 4:30, and when I got home DD17 baked some sugar cookies. I feel really relaxed and for the moment okay. IDK but since talking to H I feel less sad oddly enough almost like ok i can safely say I don't want to talk to you while you are a WH. Your cuckoo and talking is kinda a waste of time and energy. I don't mean it in a snotty way or a I've given up way, at least yet, but it just seems kinda funny even the thought of talking with him. I mean I wouldn't talk to a brick wall so why talk to him LOLOLOL.
I hope this feeling I have doesn't leave. I feel okay and calm for the moment. It scares me now when I feel calm and okay, its like sooooo much crap has happened and its like I feel like I need to keep looking back for the next thing to hit or bad thing to come. It sometimes hard to enjoy feeling okay in the present moment when your thinking ok what's next.
H texted DD17 at 9PM, no contact to son. It bothers me that he doesn't even try occasionally. I know that DS10 is dead against it at this point but still, he's the adult, he should at least try.
Dark PB as usual.
{{{Hugs}}}
G'night y'all
T2L, you made it. Congrats on surviving this day and doing well.
Going to bed.
Ok Vets not to steal this sitch but I just posted a draft Plan b letter on my sitch. Take a look. T2L, you will recognize some of the verbiage! thanks guys.
And so begins some of the benefits, the peace of mind, of PB! It took awhile but I'm glad it's finally arrived!
It sounds like breaking PB in order to find out what you were missing (not much!) was actually a good thing for you. Yay!!!
I'm glad you had a great birthday. You deserved it. *hugs*
So I apologize to my IM's for taking the call as I do not want to waste your time or efforts.
It's cool.
I think it was Mimi who was instructed by Steve Harley to open the Plan B door a crack to the WS every now and then - and then return to Plan B right away if the WS was "not ready" to be a spouse once more.
Contact every 8 weeks or so is not a problem unless it causes YOU heartache.
Your heart is what concerns me - nuthin' else.
and
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
PEP!!!
And then I got a lil pressie from the most famous, super talented Neak(BTW I LOVE READING)!
By the time I got to this line, I was able to figure out what present you were talking about. You WILL like it. Other options are
not optional...
Happy Birthday.
tl
By the time I got to this line, I was able to figure out what present you were talking about. You WILL like it. Other options are
not optional...
Happy Birthday.
tl
Yes Mam! I will LOVE it!
So I apologize to my IM's for taking the call as I do not want to waste your time or efforts.
It's cool.
I think it was Mimi who was instructed by Steve Harley to open the Plan B door a crack to the WS every now and then - and then return to Plan B right away if the WS was "not ready" to be a spouse once more.
Contact every 8 weeks or so is not a problem unless it causes YOU heartache.
Your heart is what concerns me - nuthin' else.
and
HAPPY BIRTHDAYPEP!!!
Glad to hear about the crack in the door from you and Neak. I never knew about that, so its good to know.
Yes trying to keep the heart guarded. I was talking to Lildoggie telling her that I feel pretty good. It's like a little bit of a light bulb clicked on and I really realized that you literally cannot talk to a WS. I knew it but now I have no desire to hear fog babble. After hearing him I feel happy to not have to hear it and realize how utterly pointless it is. There's always going to be the justification and blame shifting and NO progress until he is broken and humble enough to come home.
I was speaking with a childhood friend tonight, we have been in each others lives since grade school and were pretty close. But its hard talking to people about things. I kinda filled her in on the convo and she says well i don't think your plan is going to work, he's very stubborn right now and how do you expect to get him back by not talking to him if thats one of his biggest beefs? They just don't understand. I tried to explain that nothing can be worked out in a threesome and that I did the very best Plan A I could and by that Plan A followed by the Plan B letter there is nothing more that can be said. I even told my H on that call the other night that i can't make you love me or make you want the marriage. People don't understand us or the plan. People think we are playing a game by the plans but i really see no other way or chance against the beast of adultery. No matter what I feel really proud of myself. I have given it my all and worked these plans as close to procedure as I can knowing its the best shot I have. I know there are probably many hard days still to come but no sense going there until they get here.
Anyways feel, good, I can't believe I can say that! Even if its just for today that I can say that makes me feel happy. I have not said I feel good in 9 months, couldn't even get it out of my mouth or even typing it.
Update, dark PB day, no contact to DS10.
{{{{Hugs}}}}G'night
BTW, Hope3343 Needs some help on her PBL.
She is going to give it to H even tho he has filed. It looks as tho its not even legal as he served her incorrectly. Also she has notified project manager and work place exposure should take place soon so she wants the PBL as a road map back.
She wants feedback on it can y'all go over to her thread and check it out?
It's a good feeling when you know you can feel good again, anin't it?
It happens, at first, only once in a blue- but it comes back, I promise.
I kinda filled her in on the convo and she says well i don't think your plan is going to work, he's very stubborn right now and how do you expect to get him back by not talking to him if thats one of his biggest beefs? They just don't understand.
t2l, I'm really into psychology. I believe that it IS a science, that you CAN predict people, at least a lot of the time, because we're all basically wired the same. You get rejected, you get needy. You get spoiled, you get angry and rude. etc.
So when I found MB, it instantly clicked with me, because everything Dr Harley talks about is nothing more than understanding psychology - how people work.
People categorize good feelings in the back of their minds (Plan A). People want what they can't have; one of our most basic traits as humans (Plan B). Affairs don't last because they're based on fantasy (without the day to day duldrums) and when the APs get together without the spouses, they realize the fantasy partner doesn't provide all the good ENs they were getting from their spouse (Plan B), so the affair crumbles.
It's just human nature and psychology. So the next time one of your friends or family tells you you're crazy, give them that explanation. You'll look smarter than them.
By the time I got to this line, I was able to figure out what present you were talking about. You WILL like it. Other options are
not optional...
Happy Birthday.
tl
Yes Mam! I will LOVE it!
Don't forget to go to the online bookstores, search it, then add your review!
I'm back decided skip a day. Update...Yesterday no contact to DS10. Dark PB day. Felt pretty ok.
Tonight that rat b@stard just texted me! I mean my IM's sent him a message a few days ago about financial things I needed to know and he responded TO ME on text! Ugggg. This makes me super pist!
I think this dude feels he's doing us a favor. I mean the bank account is in bad shape so he probably feels like a hero letting me know that he will make a deposit in the morning. JERK!!!!!!!
I mean Sunday I told him that I dont want to talk to him that even words on a computer screen still hurt as they come from his hands and the freaking jerk texts me.
Uhhhhhh! I mean yeah need the money have stuff I need to take care of but man this time his contact irritates me. Anyways y'all know me, it didn't get responded to. Sorry but I am so not talking to you. Our convo taught me a great lesson and now I am feeling way determined and stronger and I am not wasting my time EVER again talking to your Fogged out butt. I told him also I would still be using the IM's during our conversation. He is against it but I can only control my part by using them and cannot force him to use them.
Oh yeah every month I print out the cell phone bill with all calls made to the Sea Hag and put it in my journal with all my logs and all my communications the IM's have sent him. I gots me a huge file, momma didnt raise no dummy, this dude is scr3wed if it goes to court and he knows it. He mentioned it during our convo to because he good and knows that I am recording his lack of calls and visit. Anyways lst month when I printed them out the calls doubled after I went into Plan B but this time they are cut in half even going 5 days with no calls and that happened twice. I don't feel the A is going that great but now his pride will be what truly is going to hurt. Imagine how hard it would be to come home and admit it didn't work. Whatever dude. He said on that call that even if he wasn't with her he wouldn't come running home. Well he better figure it out cuz as of tomorrow I have 3 months to my 1 year mark.
Okay so update today, no contact with DS10 an d1 dumb text.
Oh yeah and DD17 sent him an email today you can look at it on her thread. It was kinda the outline from Princess Meggy
G'night y'all!
Hiya T2L, I am wide awake. Not good.
Can't believe H texted you. They know our weak points and use them to our advantage. He knows you are worried about finances so he knows you will read the text. Darn.
BUt you are doing great. Hang tight. My prayers are with you.
Might be working at home tomorrow. Not sure what will be happening but if D15 is still sick then I won't leave. take care
By the way IDK if y'all saw that baby shower thread for Chai. I thought it was so wonderful i wanted to include the link for anyone who wants to buy for the baby gifts. Such a beautiful story of giving.
I looked it up on target.com and you can buy the gift and send it straight to her. If you can I encourage anyone to help.
Chai's MB Baby Shower
Hiya T2L, I am wide awake. Not good.
Can't believe H texted you. They know our weak points and use them to our advantage. He knows you are worried about finances so he knows you will read the text. Darn.
BUt you are doing great. Hang tight. My prayers are with you.
Might be working at home tomorrow. Not sure what will be happening but if D15 is still sick then I won't leave. take care
It never fails to amaze me how the WS who is desperate to get away from the horrible BS, that they havent loved in years, been happy with, are not in love with, blah blah blah,...
Won't go away and leave the BS alone!They have to keep lurking and whining, and show their faces even when they know it is distreesing the BS.
Hey, WS!
GO AWAY! Leave them alone already.Sheesh, try a little consistancy at least :RollieEyes:
Just when you successfully detach, they rear their ugly WS heads. And it is never pleasant because we can hardly recognize them anymore since they are so far into the fog. It is pretty sad. Who said there are no such things as "multiple personalities"
WS's just don't get it. And they don't get it that they don't get it.
~Lemonman paraphrase
It never fails to amaze me how the WS who is desperate to get away from the horrible BS, that they havent loved in years, been happy with, are not in love with, blah blah blah,...
Won't go away and leave the BS alone!
They have to keep lurking and whining, and show their faces even when they know it is distreesing the BS.
I had this same problem. He would want to talk with me everyday, you know, just to "be friends". Blah, I will never get it. It's one of those, I don't want you at the moment, but I don't want anyone else to have you either so I'll keep you hanging on in one way or another until I decide that I want you back.
Blah, stupid waywards. I feel for you T2L. Good for you for not responding. You are a strong woman!
Here's an idea...
Change your cell phone number.
Have IM's send a message that the new contact number for T2L is 888-****.
The number they give would be one of the IM's numbers, but do not give him that info, just that contact number for T2L is...
Document in your journal that WS continues to harrass you, so it is necessary to change your number.
And I would do it TODAY to send him the message that he is NOT in control, YOU are.
Watcha think?
And since you have a recording of the verbally abusive message he left on the house phone, that supports the "harrassment" statement.
Waywards are soooooooooo stupid :twobyfour:
That's a great idea, giving him the IM's phone number as your new number!
If you don't want to have to notify all your friends etc ofa new phone number, is it possible to have phone calls from a certain number forwarded to another number? Can you selectively forward calls, so that only his calls get forwarded to the IMs? That'd be pretty funny...
I think there is a way that you can block certain phone numbers on your cell. That should give him the hint.
Anyways y'all know me, it didn't get responded to. Sorry but I am so not talking to you. Our convo taught me a great lesson and now I am feeling way determined and stronger and I am not wasting my time EVER again talking to your Fogged out butt.
Your strength, determination, and conviction are amazing. You're doing so well in understanding that you do not want to reward or affiliate with the WS. When he's interested in being the *F*WH then that's a different case altogether.
Anyways lst month when I printed them out the calls doubled after I went into Plan B but this time they are cut in half even going 5 days with no calls and that happened twice. I don't feel the A is going that great but now his pride will be what truly is going to hurt. Imagine how hard it would be to come home and admit it didn't work. Whatever dude. He said on that call that even if he wasn't with her he wouldn't come running home. Well he better figure it out cuz as of tomorrow I have 3 months to my 1 year mark.
I really did think he'd dump OW and come crawling back in short order. I'm not at all surprised to see that the affair is on shaky legs (at best). I totally underestimated his selfishness and sense of entitlement. If he *doesn't* come back, you really are better off w/o him. He might not have what it takes to be a true spouse and put your needs and well being ahead of his own wants.
Great job on the darkness!
Neak here, on AJ's computer.
The man your DD described in her letter wants to come back. God wants him to come back (only better).
He may never come back, true, but chances are far better that he will. Hold on as long as you can, and save a little reserve in case he comes back right after you've given up. Waywards seems to have an uncanny sense for when they've run out of grace, and many snap out at that point, after the BS decides it's too late.
Here's an idea...
Change your cell phone number.
Have IM's send a message that the new contact number for T2L is 888-****.
The number they give would be one of the IM's numbers, but do not give him that info, just that contact number for T2L is...
Document in your journal that WS continues to harrass you, so it is necessary to change your number.
And I would do it TODAY to send him the message that he is NOT in control, YOU are.
Watcha think?
Well sounds great except for he pays for the cell bill and the bill is sent to his house and it has all our numbers on it.
I would have to get another phone but I cannot at this point because of money issues, every penny counts with this bonehead thinking he can support 2 households. That unfortunately is probably going to end not too much longer.
More than likely with the kids and i having to move from our dream home to an apartment. H wanted to keep us in this house but he refuses to see that he doesn't make enough money to do so.
After reading Neak's post, and then mine, I realized how negative mine sounded. I didn't mean to do that. I still have hope he'll get his head out of his butt and wake up and "act right".
What I was trying to say is that, on the off chance that he chooses NOT to wake up and "act right", it would be a good thing in the long run.
But I do still have hope that he'll come around.
I totally underestimated his selfishness and sense of entitlement. If he *doesn't* come back, you really are better off w/o him. He might not have what it takes to be a true spouse and put your needs and well being ahead of his own wants.
Great job on the darkness!
I am not sure he has it in him to really be a good spouse. I have realized that I worked very hard in the marriage(did makes some LB's) and he did not. Yes he took us to church and yes he provided for us and yes he did give us many laughs and affection BUT he was no fully connected-I feel really dumb even saying that because it almost doesn't seem that, that is possible.
I think I may be the cause of some of his entitlement. Here's why and y'all can correct me if necessary. I have always kinda known that H needed admiration. So I gave him admiration but even while this man had his moodiness and angry outbursts, so now he thinks he is like the "man" and probably thinks I am lucky to have him. IN fact a month just before I found out he totally embarrassed me in front of church friends. We were all talking about Valentines Day and he says she doesn't need flowers and candy she is lucky I walk in the door.
Imagine you reward a man for 24 years with Admiration while he is behaving badly. Not good.
So last night he sends DD17 a text saying goodnight baby but makes no attempt to call DS10(he wouldn't have answered but i feel he's the adult he should call daily until he answers) and makes NO mention of her letter to him.
Yeah so not gonna cry over him any more!
After reading Neak's post, and then mine, I realized how negative mine sounded. I didn't mean to do that. I still have hope he'll get his head out of his butt and wake up and "act right".
What I was trying to say is that, on the off chance that he chooses NOT to wake up and "act right", it would be a good thing in the long run.
But I do still have hope that he'll come around.
No worries Turtle
I have thought it myself. I am not sure he can overcome pride, I mean its worse that adultery in my book. Satan lifted his self and wanted to exalt himself above the throne of God and he convinced a 1/3 of the angels because of pride. I can barely see how Mr. T2L is gonna do it.
Yes he cries in front of others and DD17 but NOT in front of me. And even "IF" by chance he makes it to the front door, HONESTLY I cannot see him agreeing to ANY conditions. I personally feel he thinks he's doing us some big favor and we all should be so lucky the "awesome" one has come home
. I am sure he thinks he'll walk in a run the place since we'll all be afraid of him doing it again. Yeah we might but not afraid to live with out you anymore.
So here it goes. It seems like I keep reading about people who are doing great plan B's and are not seeing their WS's return. But the people that I have seen do terrible plan B's are in recovery.
This is limited to the few people who I have followed their threads over the past year, but it really does bother me.
Yes I know that plan B is part of MB and this is MB's website which is precisely why I do not comment anymore to people who are contemplating or are in plan B.
I quoted the above off that new thread about WS vs. Cake eaters. Its an interesting Thread and I like what TTLIG posted as it raises a good question.
And verve also stated that PB wouldn't have worked on her WH. My DD17 has said a few times to me that she doesn't think that the PB will work on dad because he is stubborn.
A part of me agrees but a part of me knows he needs to make this decision and there's that part that wonders if he will make that decision with out communicating? IDK but the thread that it came from does make me wonder.
I mean a lot of you who post to me told me that you did crappy PB's(I think PM and SMB??) and your recovered. I am doing a fairly well PB and this dude is really dead against it. I understand the entitlement and other bull cr@p too. But I do wonder.
So what are all your thoughts guys about this topic?
Hmmm... Lil did a really good PB. She had a false recovery first tho, right as she was about to go into PB.
JMHO, not expert or the "MB" way or anything, but I just kinda have a feeling that a false recovery sometimes paves the way for the real recovery... um, how to say this... allowing a recovery which is not iron-clad, when the WS isn't quite ready for iron-clad, while it may be painful IMHO it may have kept the hope and interest alive in the WS...
I'm not sure I'm saying that right, cus it almost sounds like I'm suggesting a wishy-washy PB which I'm not. More like, (and this is JUST my HUMBLE opinion!) being a little lax with the conditions, at least the first time, seems friendlier, more welcoming, so it's easier for the WS to come home.
I hear about a lot of folks in recovery who had a false recovery with easier conditions and then a real recovery with hard conditions. The 2nd time around the WS was willing to meet those harder conditions.
Dr. Harley does say that PB is highly risky and not guaranteed to lead to recovery of the marriage; just that it protects the BS.
I guess he just called DD17 while I was out and is coming here to to take her for coffee. Can you believe he acknowledged her letter. He said I got your letter.
DD17 said she kinda tried to get out of it but he was not getting the hint and said hes coming.
DS10 said he wants to go visit so after 3 weeks of no contact he will visit his dad which I'm sure will be fine as DD17 will be with him.
Okay gotta go he's on his way and I need to go finish my errands.
Post later.....
for the 3 of you
Yes he cries in front of others and DD17 but NOT in front of me. And even "IF" by chance he makes it to the front door, HONESTLY I cannot see him agreeing to ANY conditions. I personally feel he thinks he's doing us some big favor and we all should be so lucky the "awesome" one has come home . I am sure he thinks he'll walk in a run the place since we'll all be afraid of him doing it again. Yeah we might but not afraid to live with out you anymore.
My D18 got asked out by this adorable boy earlier this year. He was so full of himself. Girls had been dying to go out with him, but he chose D18. But she proved too sure of herself (and unwilling to have sex), so he dumped her after a month. That was mid-October. Girls had warned her not to go out with the good-looking guy, she finally found out why.
Basically, he had another girl lined up he was going to ask out, one who
did put out. Now it's end of January, and that girl, and three others after her, have all turned him down, cos his reputation for being a conceited jerk got ahead of him. There is justice sometimes.
So what are all your thoughts guys about this topic?
My thought is why would you want him back if he doesn't go through a period of losing his pride? All he would ever do is have another affair.
The PURPOSE of plan B is NOT to WORK on the WH. It is to PROTECT the BS so that WHEN the affair DOES end, as we all know it will, the BS still LOVES their spouse. It takes you out of the drama so that you cannot be continually abused by WS.
Plan B IS ABOUT YOU, not Mr. T2L.
And verve also stated that PB wouldn't have worked on her WH.
Frankly, verve is guessing here. It's the same as a BS too terrified to expose telling everyone that exposure won't work in their situation.
Maybe verve's husband came home IN SPITE of her unwillingness to plan B, not BECAUSE of it. (no offense intended to verve!)
My DD17 has said a few times to me that she doesn't think that the PB will work on dad because he is stubborn.
Plan B isn't suppose to "work" on WS. You've got to get that through your head, T2L. Nothing "works" on a WS. You are just trying to set the stage for a possible recovery, if he ever gets his head outta his hiney.
I mean a lot of you who post to me told me that you did crappy PB's(I think PM and SMB??) and your recovered.
I did not Plan B. I Plan A'd, and then just stayed as far away as possible and practiced tough love Dr. Dobson style (because I couldn't handle Plan A anymore) while I prepared for Plan B. tst came home before Plan B went into affect.
I don't think PM Plan B'd either because she didn't find MB until recovery.
But none of this matters, T2L. You can find recovered marriages from all types of battlefields. Some immediately following D-day, some during Plan A, some coming out of Plan B, and some even from Plan C or D.
This isn't about anyone's situation but T2L's. We are here to help you keep love for your husband. We KNOW the affair will end, we just don't know when. We want you to still love your husband when it does.
I am doing a fairly well PB and this dude is really dead against it.
You gotta stop thinking he's special and different. We are all married to stubborn people. I sure as heck am. (so is tst
)
Maybe it's OK to come out of Plan B if...if...WH knocks on your bedroom door in the middle of the night with roses in one hand and a bottle of champagne in the other. He looks at you with a smile to melt. Says he's been such a fool. That his true and only love is in front of him. Then he falls on one knee, tears in his eyes, and says "Will you be my wife again? Will you love me again? Will you forgive me? Because I promise, and I really mean it this time, to love, honor and cherish you forever and ever. And...more importantly...to be faithful to you...as long as I live."
Then he asks you to pack quickly, that the limo is waiting out front, and you two are booked on a one-week cruise.
OK -- in that situation -- I say "F Plan B" and go for it.
Can't a BS in Plan B dream?
Then T2L can whip out her NC contract all neatly typed up and stuck in the drawer and say "Please sign on the dotted line, hand me your cell phone, call the OW NOW and say tata"
Ok now the limo is beeping, lets get going.
romantic wishing with some practicality.
Maybe it's OK to come out of Plan B if...if...WH knocks on your bedroom door in the middle of the night with roses in one hand and a bottle of champagne in the other. He looks at you with a smile to melt. Says he's been such a fool. That his true and only love is in front of him. Then he falls on one knee, tears in his eyes, and says "Will you be my wife again? Will you love me again? Will you forgive me? Because I promise, and I really mean it this time, to love, honor and cherish you forever and ever. And...more importantly...to be faithful to you...as long as I live."
Then he asks you to pack quickly, that the limo is waiting out front, and you two are booked on a one-week cruise.
OK -- in that situation -- I say "F Plan B" and go for it.
Can't a BS in Plan B dream?
Heck Im dreaming of that from my FWH!!!!!!
I KNOW of a couple who did this. They were having problems in their marriage so H went to W's job, picked her up and drove her to the airport for a two-week vacation in Hawaii. No bags, no clothes, nothing. He told her they'd buy all new stuff there. He had prearranged with the inlaws to take the kids while they were gone. I was sooooo jealous!!
T2L, I didn't do ANY plan when I was going through this because I'd never heard of MB. I tried the not taking his calls, ignoring him, begging him, threatening him, crying, screaming, yelling, cajoling, and just being plain mean. None of that stuff worked for me until I finally just let go, gave it 100% to God and let Him deal with it. I still talked to my H but not like I was before.
I was FORTUNATE it worked out for me. But I've ALWAYS said, if I'd a had MB, it would have saved me so much grief and PAIN and I would have been fine either way.
The PURPOSE of plan B is NOT to WORK on the WH. It is to PROTECT the BS so that WHEN the affair DOES end, as we all know it will, the BS still LOVES their spouse. It takes you out of the drama so that you cannot be continually abused by WS.
Right. But you, T2L, have not really been removed from the drama...it's been pretty much on a continuing basis since you started Plan B. With only a day or two here and there that have been quiet.
Charlotte
Frankly, verve is guessing here. It's the same as a BS too terrified to expose telling everyone that exposure won't work in their situation.
Maybe verve's husband came home IN SPITE of her unwillingness to plan B, not BECAUSE of it. (no offense intended to verve!
I would have to say that SMB is correct here, because my saying that a completely dark PB wouldn't have worked on Ike, was based on knowing my H, not WH. I did do a PB, T2L, just not a good one. And, maybe if I had done a better one, Ike would have come home sooner, who knows. What I do know, is that there are those who have done great PB's (Lil) and have started R. So, don't lose hope. *BTW, SMB, no offense taken at all. I understand what you are saying*
See, I hesitate to post my story and the facts about my crappy PB, because it makes other BS's think that it works. Harley has plans for a reason and PB is for the BS, not the WS. What happened to someone else won't happen to you because everyone is different, even though WS's follow a script with their words. Listen to what the vets have to tell you because they know WAY more than I do.
Oh Dear Lord.
Ok here we go. So he comes and takes the kids to starbucks and then DS10 to Video game store. So i left before he got there and went and did errands. While I am in Walmart DD17 says dad invited us to dinner but I told him we were going to dinner with you and he said well all lets go. DD17 says well I dont think thats a good idea and he responds well you can always ask. So she asks and I am having a fit in Walmart. I told daughter I have to call you back.
So Instead of having the kids be in the middle I sent him a text that said Thank you for the offer, I would love to come have dinner with my real husband when your ready to reconcile Id be willing to talk to you abt it. He says okay see ya.
So I finish my shopping and go home, well guess what they had just pulled up 5 minutes before me. So i open the garage and slip in with out him seeing me and the kids bring in the groceries. WEll while I am in the house as they unload, DS10 says dad lets play a game of pool!!!! I told DD17 he absolutely cannot come in to my home well I forgot to tell DS10. So they turn on the lights and TV and play pool in the garage!!!
I am irate at this point and consulted with Neak and she recommended I leave, so I leave for 2 hours and come back and HE STILL here! So I can't throw him out or it would be huge LB. So I quickly run to my room and hang out in there. Mind you its 9PM at this point. So 11:30PM rolls around and my son says dad wants to stay the night. I say well he should not be asking you he should ask himself, I didn't think it would be fair to tell DS10 no and have him tell his dad.
So YUP he comes in and asks. And I repeat PBL. I say look Mr. T2L. It kills me to see you. I cannot see you or have texts from you. I said I am not trying to control you just trying to save my self from pain. I say I have no one to protect me anymore and I have to protect myself, I cannot run my self into the crazy house. I say I would love nothing more than to have you spend the night but I can't make you love me and I can't make you want to be married to me. Having you here is too painful and spending the night is nothing more than the carrot in front of the donkey. I cannot do it I am worth more than that. I said next time please do not visit here. I will have the kids ready for you I just cannot have you here. I say you have told me the revised pay periods so I have no need to hear from you anymore. I say I cannot have you spend the night not just to protect me but to protect your son. If I allow you to come around again until i cant take the pain then it will be the 4th time you have left. You left when you told us and then came home 1st time. Left 2 weeks later when you went back to her 2nd time and then my son had to lose you again when I decided i can no longer talk with you(PB)3rd time and now you want me to have you over again and then let my son experience a 4th? I say I cannot do that I have to protect him as well. He nods.
Then when he goes out to the driveway I called his cell(I know get your 2x4) :twobyfour: and I say look you are welcome to spend the night but you need to be able to tell me that she is out of the picture and forever. He says well it was dumb i shouldn't have asked. I say well I just want you to know that. He says well I just thought i was tired I can maybe crash here but I don't want to have to answer to anyone. This is the 2nd time he has said this. He is obsessed about not answering to anyone. He said on the last phone call that I like being alone and not having to answer to anyone.
I don't know you guys, it almost seems like MLC more than an A and that makes it even worse. He does not want to answer to anyone. If any of you want to add Mr. T2L to your prayer list email me and I MAY possibly give you our names so you can cover this in prayer.
Oh and lets make it even worse. So H has this invention that several of our friends have helped fund pre-A. WEll we all took it to get patent searched several months back so that H would not cut out everyone. WEll he tells me tonight that he has spoken to the owner of the company and he is interested and how we get them off. I said they are my friends. IDK. So this had potential to be worth SOOOO much money and his boss can move forward with it. Oh BTW the owner of this company 8 years ago when it started cheated on his wife with the babysitter and left his wife and married her! Now with this F'ing biatch OW she may never leave if money is involved. Please pray everyone that this invention does not come to fruition until this affair is destroyed.
This is my bad i should have told DS10 before hand but I didn't think about it since he hasn't seen or spoken to his dad in almost 3 weeks. I am furious with myself for not telling DS10 before hand and once H was here I couldn't get him out.
I have retold him I cannot see him so I am hoping he gets it. I have spoken to DS10 and he understands but he did ask why and I had to explain to him. DD17 left at 11:30 and said goodbye to her dad, she texted me after she left and said dad doesn't want to leave. Why oh why oh why is this man being to stubborn. I am NOT NOT NOT taking him back unless he agrees to conditions. He may not, but at least i have control over not accepting it.
Sorry guys, another break but not because i wanted it. Truly y'all I did not invite him here and this was totally unexpected but think its covered.
So let it roll, bring on the 2x4's and feedback.... Can I just strangle the dude?
[quote] The PURPOSE of plan B is NOT to WORK on the WH. It is to PROTECT the BS so that WHEN the affair DOES end, as we all know it will, the BS still LOVES their spouse. It takes you out of the drama so that you cannot be continually abused by WS.
I do absolutely agree that the affair will end, and even think its already going that route even if its just a little. But He does not want to answer to anyone. Remember how he kept saying I can do what i want during the PA? He kept saying it over and over so I included it into the PBL. Well now its I don't want to answer to anyone. That has nothing to do with the affair and that may not end.
I know he's not special or different WS, but I don't feel the affair is an issue like it was previously.
If you must break Plan B, don't try to educate him, please. He's a bully and a beast for this response.
Married couples answer to each other and to God.
Soft short answers while holding the door open for him.
"I don't need to be married that badly anymore" was my soft answer.
But your husband needs to hear that and "What about God?" when he comes off with his "I don't answer to anyone". If he responds with spiritual defiance, say, "Everyone in this house answers to God - please go if you won't." If he defies, call the police.
He needs to be provoked and removed!
I have been following your story from day 1.Just so you know my situation.....Dec 06 H's affair discoverd,had been going for 2 weeks,he moves in with OW.....Dec 08 divorce goes through and he marries OW 20 days later.
Now I did plan A, was hard as he had moved out..I did a weak plan B..wrote 2 letters to him..he did a lot of "thinking" about coming home but never acted on anything.
My point is this..I spoke to him recently and he is still very fogged,did a lot of 'babbling"..IMO when they read the PBL they don't see the crux of what we are saying to them..He said that whenever I gave him a letter it just showed him that I wanted to control him and our marriage...that is all he saw....he said it pushed him further away.
I know they don't deserve us to be loving and kind to them while they are in the throws of their affair,and as hard as it is I think we should still show them unconditional love..I KNOW ITS HARD...have boundaries,sure but don't be too hard/stubborn...if you feel doing this will put you in the luney bin,then rather do a dark plan B,for your own sanity and safety.
Loving unconditionally is one of the hardest things to do..but think what it will show him...
If you want to do everything possible to save your marriage,I feel you should give a little,hand him the olive branch so to speak...life is not black or white...emotions are involved here....
You have to give in order to receive...you reap what you sow....
What are you sowing/saying to him? Try see it from his perspective,keeping in mind that his an ALIEN,but underneath that persona is your husband..and that is who you are trying to reach....love conquers all..
I know its scary and very difficult to do when your whole being is screaming for you to act differently,but what would Jesus do?
I know this is not MB way....just my opinion...don't get to caught up in theoretical plans that may not work for you...
Remember,men are proud stubborn idiots at times. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face...so to speak.!JMHO..
Hope - I don't think any of us want a "marriage at any price" kind of marriage.
What you describe brings to mind a woman taking back an unrepentant and proud man who has little or no remorse for the pain he's caused his family.
T2L MUST let her husband find the bottom. He has lost sight of his spiritual self, not just his family. There is something more important than a marriage at stake if she takes him back as he is. That is, HIS soul, Her CHILDREN's SOULS, and her own soul. You cannot invite the devil into your home, defiant of God and expect to have a home that fosters spiritual growth for all concerned.
She must go back to Plan B, and when these chance encounters happen, use soft words, and short sentences and silence to her advantage. She must give a clear message that he is not welcome in her life, by force or by invitation. He forced himself into her life last night. She needs to give the indifference message loud and clear - that she doesn't need to be married or in a relationship so badly that she'll tolerate bullying and bad behavior.
I'm not saying she must take him back if his unrepentant etc....only that she should keep the door ajar so to speak,and not to be too rigid with her stand.
Hope - I don't think any of us want a "marriage at any price" kind of marriage.
What you describe brings to mind a woman taking back an unrepentant and proud man who has little or no remorse for the pain he's caused his family.
T2L MUST let her husband find the bottom. He has lost sight of his spiritual self, not just his family. There is something more important than a marriage at stake if she takes him back as he is. That is, HIS soul, Her CHILDREN's SOULS, and her own soul. You cannot invite the devil into your home, defiant of God and expect to have a home that fosters spiritual growth for all concerned.
She must go back to Plan B, and when these chance encounters happen, use soft words, and short sentences and silence to her advantage. She must give a clear message that he is not welcome in her life, by force or by invitation. He forced himself into her life last night. She needs to give the indifference message loud and clear - that she doesn't need to be married or in a relationship so badly that she'll tolerate bullying and bad behavior.
KA,
Yes my has lost his spiritual self. I pray he gets to the bottom but really for God sake what is that going to take? Probably me divorcing him and 10 years later he wakes up. I don't know. I am at a loss over what the whole i don't want to answer to anyone crap is. Again I think this A is on the way down. I could be wrong but some signs point that way. Now i feel he isn't committed to either of us. I think he thinks he is so freaking great that he can do roam the earth answering to know one.
I did reiterate to him that next time the visits happen call and i will send kids out and you need to visit away from my home and please don't park your car here its too painful for me. I also said look if the roles were reversed and i asked this of you, you would throw a fit and probably go beat the OM's a$s but yet you want me to accommodate you in this and I cant and he says well i shouldn't have asked i was just tired and its late and i figured i could stay but I didn't want to answer to anyone.
That is, HIS soul, Her CHILDREN's SOULS, and her own soul. You cannot invite the devil into your home, defiant of God and expect to have a home that fosters spiritual growth for all concerned.
Its good to be reminded of this. His soul is in the balance. My pastor said that about 4 months ago. He said that God doesnt judge as much as we think but that Mr. T2L cannot do this forever and that God will judge him at some point and he didn't want to see that for him. Thats why we've been praying. He doesn't see it. He says he still talks with God and that God loves him. He is using self righteousness so what i can even say. He understands the forgiveness of God so I cannot preach to him about it and have not preached at him during this whole 9 months.
I do understand what hopeandpray was saying about a slight crack in PB every once in a while but I will not take him back unless he is humbled, repentant, has godly sorrow and is willing to do what necessary. But I think that that lil crack of restating PBL is good.
I am at a loss for word in his whole reasoning and i just can't see him being humble enough to come home. He now thinks hes Gods gift to the earth and he needs not to answer to anyone.
I hope the OW dumps him. He told me after dday he had a dream that he saw her walk away with another man and he was devastated and he didnt have her or me, I responded by saying that was nice of the Lord to show you your future its going to happen because what starts in deception ends in deception. I really feel God was warning him. So now I remind the Lord, I say Lord you gave him that dream I know it with all that is within me because you have always spoken to Mr. T2L in dreams so I ask you to bring that to pass its the only chance he can be humbled.
IDK guys. I just dont know. Again an affair is one thing but this pride and entitlement is a whole other mess. Don't know if he can slay that giant.
this pride and entitlement is a whole other mess. Don't know if he can slay that giant.
He can do anything if he wants to, badly enough. But it will be his choice, not yours, unfortunately. But the only way is if he has no access, as you know. So Dark again! You can do it!
I gotta admit I'm stumped as to what would lead him to coming back and R, but PB is to protect the BS. What Kayla says makes sense to me. I like the idea of soft answers.
I wish there was some way to get through to him that this is NOT you telling him what to do. This is about YOU and what YOU will do. He's totally free to do whatever he wants. There's consequences, and what you WON'T do is protect him from those consequences. What you WILL do is protect yourself and your kids from those consequences, as best you can. I know you've told him this; I just keep thinking there must be some key, some way of saying it, that he'll understand... I know, wishful thinking. But maybe if you kept using his phrasing: you aren't telling him what to do, he's free to make whatever choice he wants. But you're free to make the choices for yourself and the family that's left.
Maybe next time he says "No one tells me what to do" you could say "ME TOO!" and see what he thinks of that. (I know, that would mean talking to him; but if the situation comes up again like it has recently...)
He obviously hates PB.
I gotta admit I'm stumped as to what would lead him to coming back and R, but PB is to protect the BS. What Kayla says makes sense to me. I like the idea of soft answers.
I wish there was some way to get through to him that this is NOT you telling him what to do. This is about YOU and what YOU will do. He's totally free to do whatever he wants. There's consequences, and what you WON'T do is protect him from those consequences. What you WILL do is protect yourself and your kids from those consequences, as best you can. I know you've told him this; I just keep thinking there must be some key, some way of saying it, that he'll understand... I know, wishful thinking. But maybe if you kept using his phrasing: you aren't telling him what to do, he's free to make whatever choice he wants. But you're free to make the choices for yourself and the family that's left.
Maybe next time he says "No one tells me what to do" you could say "ME TOO!" and see what he thinks of that. (I know, that would mean talking to him; but if the situation comes up again like it has recently...)
He obviously hates PB.
I said to him last night 3 times in a row. Look Mr. T2L I am not trying to control you,please hear me this is not about control I am not trying to control you or hurt you. I have no one to protect me anymore so I have to protect myself now(he used to pride his self on protecting me). I say I have to protect my heart. I say if its only for the fact that i am the mother or your children, you dont even have to love me at this point, but just honor the fact that i am the mother of your kids, then I would hope that this would cause you to not want to harm me any further. I have to protect my self so I am not driven to the loony bin(I said only to convey how crazy this all feels and NOT because I am losing it)
But I did say many times that this is not control and I am not trying to hurt you but I cannot keep in contact with you its too painful. And mind you I am fighting back tears and he can see a few slip out. he knows I am hurting but could offer nothing but nodding and listening and well i shouldn't have asked it was probably wrong and I just dont want to answer to anyone.
So I find out last night that he had his employer change his email address about 3 weeks ago to avoid the IM's. But ya know what I just thought, hmmm then how did he get his daughters letter 2 days ago? Hmmm. Liar! Unless he checks it too on occasion. IDK doesnt matter told the IM's to go postal mail.
Its good to be reminded of this. His soul is in the balance. My pastor said that about 4 months ago. He said that God doesnt judge as much as we think but that Mr. T2L cannot do this forever and that God will judge him at some point and he didn't want to see that for him. Thats why we've been praying. He doesn't see it. He says he still talks with God and that God loves him.
T2L, my DH said the SAME thing. He even told me once how he prayed with OW about her custody battle.
AND once we even stopped by our old church because we knew they were having a mid-day prayer meeting, went in, and had them pray for both of us. I could NOT understand how he could fool himself into thinking that he was okay with God.
Later, after recovery, he said he KNEW that he was being defiant to God, but he was so lost, he just didn't care at the time. He said that prayer meeting at the church, hearing the words prayed and said over him nearly undid him, that he had to consciously continue to walk away, knowing full well he was in rebellion. My DH was arrogant too. The things he said to me were just plain cruel.
I began to lose hope big time after that. If God couldn't reach him, then he was probably gone for good.
What I didn't know until later is that God was still chasing after him. He put people in his path to remind him that God still loved him, wasn't done with him, even when he was out drinking in a bar. He never told me that until after we recovered.
So don't lose hope T2L. Just continue doing what you're supposed to be doing... staying in your Plan B and praying. I see what he did last night as another act of defiance and rebellion but you were unwavering. I agree with Kayla... meet him with soft answers and/or silence if he does something like this again. He's heard your requirements.
I don't want to have to answer to anyone
.... because there are UNexpected ways you might respond that will be more helpful than you defending YOUR actions ....
It is a fascinating thing he said. (WHERE is Schoolbus when you need her?)
When we don't "answer" to
ANYONE it is a distancing mechanism.
It keeps people from getting too close.
"Methinks he doth protest too much"It means ....
(WS translation service activated)DO NOT ASK ME TO CARE ABOUT OTHERSYou see, on the surface it appears to be about arrogance.
Dig deeper, it's about fear of intimacy.
Earlier you mentioned the comment in church that his Valentine's Day gift to you might as well be "walking through the door".
Does that sound like a CONFIDENT and SELF ASSURED man to anyone? Not to me !
You mentioned his EN for admiration - honey - this is a man thing .... not just your man, my man too. It's an easily filled EN - don't dismiss it so quickly as a character flaw.
The smaller the man feels on the inside, the greater his need for admiration.
He feels very small indeed.
I think it is time for some re-thinking about strategy.
I'll get back to you .... my caffeine level needs attention.
T2L, just curious, did DD say if he said anything about her letter.
I said to him last night 3 times in a row. "three times in a row" .... you explained your motives for your actions ..... not working. Resist the desire to explain yourself next time.
Look Mr. T2LNever begin with "LOOK" ... it sounds controlling to a waynerd ... Begin every sentence with gently speaking his first name (or a favorite intimate pet name) ... it will throw him off his "don't control me" game and assumes intimacy far more than "Look you! "
I am not trying to control you,please hear me this is not about control I am not trying to control you or hurt you.What about - "I can see how scared you feel."I have no one to protect me anymore so I have to protect myself now(he used to pride his self on protecting me). I say I have to protect my heart. I say if its only for the fact that i am the mother or your children, you dont even have to love me at this point, but just honor the fact that i am the mother of your kids, then I would hope that this would cause you to not want to harm me any further. I have to protect my self so I am not driven to the loony bin(I said only to convey how crazy this all feels and NOT because I am losing it) But I did say many times that this is not control and I am not trying to hurt you but I cannot keep in contact with you its too painful.Once you've explained yourself - don't repeat. His ears are not open to this.
Instead - respond to his BODY LANGUAGE and not his words.
"You seem tense. How are you?"
And mind you I am fighting back tears and he can see a few slip out. tears are honestSo I find out last night that he had his employer change his email address about 3 weeks ago to avoid the IM's. But ya know what I just thought, hmmm then how did he get his daughters letter 2 days ago? Hmmm. Liar! Unless he checks it too on occasion. IDK doesnt matter told the IM's to go postal mail. Please don't tell me to "go postal" You haven't seen what happens when I go postal !...
BTW - I have been worried about your love bank - until I read your last interaction - you're not near empty -
Neak here. Apparently our phone is down. We always have problems when it rains, but right now there is nothing. We'll be going to church soon, and when I have a cell signal I'll be able to call the phone company. Grrrrr!
I think you handled a difficult situation very well. Now it's time to crack down. He needs to not get ahold of you any more. But if something unexpected happens like yesterday, just handle it as you did - graciously and firmly.
Pep, can't wait to hear what you have to say. Also, if this latest info is to be snail-mailed, I'll send you an email about that later today. Come back when you have your coffee drip hooked up.
You see, on the surface it appears to be about arrogance.
Dig deeper, it's about fear of intimacy.
Deep intimacy means an eventual deep heartbreaking loss.
Think about this a little while.
How can you touch this next time WS expresses his fear by way of the "control" detour? (instead of explaining your motives, yet again)
Pep, can't wait to hear what you have to say. Also, if this latest info is to be snail-mailed, I'll send you an email about that later today. Come back when you have your coffee drip hooked up.
I'm hooked up!
Email brainstorming has begun.
I'd really like to give this marriage a fighting chance.
I like both of these people very much!
YES - I even like this waynerd - I like him because he's managed to produce two AMAZING kids - and that is no accident!
I don't want to have to answer to anyone
.... because there are UNexpected ways you might respond that will be more helpful than you defending YOUR actions ....
It is a fascinating thing he said. (WHERE is Schoolbus when you need her?)
When we don't "answer" to
ANYONE it is a distancing mechanism.
It keeps people from getting too close.
"Methinks he doth protest too much"It means ....
(WS translation service activated)DO NOT ASK ME TO CARE ABOUT OTHERSYou see, on the surface it appears to be about arrogance.
Dig deeper, it's about fear of intimacy.
Earlier you mentioned the comment in church that his Valentine's Day gift to you might as well be "walking through the door".
Does that sound like a CONFIDENT and SELF ASSURED man to anyone? Not to me !
You mentioned his EN for admiration - honey - this is a man thing .... not just your man, my man too. It's an easily filled EN - don't dismiss it so quickly as a character flaw.
The smaller the man feels on the inside, the greater his need for admiration.
He feels very small indeed.
I think it is time for some re-thinking about strategy.
I'll get back to you .... my caffeine level needs attention.
Yes I have known about his major self esteem but if look at him outwardly you would never know it. But Gos allowed me to see it many years ago. He does not feel confident inside and living with me "Mrs Happy go luck and miss positive" per his words, probably didn't make things any better. Imagine you are jacked up inside and your wife is happy positive gives everyone benefit of doubt sees good before bad. I am sure he hated it. But what was I too do?
I am interested in what you have to say.
T2L, just curious, did DD say if he said anything about her letter.
He said I got your letter. That's it. She said oh okay thats good.
The brainstormers need your input:
We all fear intimacy on some level. Deep intimacy means an eventual deep heartbreaking loss.
Think about this a little while.
How can you touch this next time WS expresses his fear by way of the "control" detour? (instead of explaining your motives, yet again)
How can you touch his fears?
Not help - touch.
You know him, we don't.
He's not a talker - what touches him?
Pep, can't wait to hear what you have to say. Also, if this latest info is to be snail-mailed, I'll send you an email about that later today. Come back when you have your coffee drip hooked up.
I'm hooked up!
Email brainstorming has begun.
I'd really like to give this marriage a fighting chance.
I like both of these people very much!
YES - I even like this waynerd - I like him because he's managed to produce two AMAZING kids - and that is no accident!
What are WH's favorite 3 movies?
What are WH's favorite 3 songs?
What was WH's favorite trip you took together?
Where has WH always said he wants to go on vacation someday?
I said to him last night 3 times in a row. "three times in a row" .... you explained your motives for your actions ..... not working. Resist the desire to explain yourself next time.
Look Mr. T2LNever begin with "LOOK" ... it sounds controlling to a waynerd ... Begin every sentence with gently speaking his first name (or a favorite intimate pet name) ... it will throw him off his "don't control me" game and assumes intimacy far more than "Look you! "
I am not trying to control you,please hear me this is not about control I am not trying to control you or hurt you.What about - "I can see how scared you feel."I have no one to protect me anymore so I have to protect myself now(he used to pride his self on protecting me). I say I have to protect my heart. I say if its only for the fact that i am the mother or your children, you dont even have to love me at this point, but just honor the fact that i am the mother of your kids, then I would hope that this would cause you to not want to harm me any further. I have to protect my self so I am not driven to the loony bin(I said only to convey how crazy this all feels and NOT because I am losing it) But I did say many times that this is not control and I am not trying to hurt you but I cannot keep in contact with you its too painful.Once you've explained yourself - don't repeat. His ears are not open to this.
Instead - respond to his BODY LANGUAGE and not his words.
"You seem tense. How are you?"
And mind you I am fighting back tears and he can see a few slip out. tears are honestSo I find out last night that he had his employer change his email address about 3 weeks ago to avoid the IM's. But ya know what I just thought, hmmm then how did he get his daughters letter 2 days ago? Hmmm. Liar! Unless he checks it too on occasion. IDK doesnt matter told the IM's to go postal mail. Please don't tell me to "go postal" You haven't seen what happens when I go postal !...
BTW - I have been worried about your love bank - until I read your last interaction - you're not near empty - How can you touch this next time WS expresses his fear by way of the "control" detour? (instead of explaining your motives, yet again)
ITA. You don't have to justify *your* actions to HIM.
I like Pep's suggestions to change strategy and the things she is suggesting.
I would like to see what he says if you used exactly his phrase - He doesn't have to answer to anyone, is that it? - by saying "You don't have to answer to anyone, it's your choice whether to come home or not" or "ME NEITHER." But not in a way that you are defending YOUR choices about YOU to HIM.
Oh, and I bet God knows who I'm talking about when I say "T2L's WH"
What are WH's favorite 3 movies?
What are WH's favorite 3 songs?
What was WH's favorite trip you took together?
Where has WH always said he wants to go on vacation someday?
His favorite movies are: If I would have to try to narrow it down, it would be Tommy boy, Wedding singer, Apollo 16 and Happy Gilmore
His 3 favorite songs are Apologize by Timberland, Stunt 101 by G-unit, possibly in the air tonight by Phil Collins. Its hard to narrow. But Apologize he loved. Our family dog of 13 years died November 2007, he took it so hard and wept for days. That song Apologize came on and he thinks fondly of it even now.
Favorite trip, hard question he was always so weird and couldn't fully relax. Um family trip would be our 7 day cruise to Caribbean, but the best part about it wasn't as much the cruise but I had planned for us to stay an additional day so we could take him to Kennedy Space Center. He was amazed and we were all bored to death. He could have been an astronaut, he is fascinated with space. LOL guess he liked it so much he let spce in his brain...Ok sorry LOL I wish I had enjoyed the Space Center more now. He loved it. As far as trip for us as a couple it was our 1st trip to Bahamas on 4 day cruise for our 15 year anniversary.
He loves travel, he wants to see the whole world really. Hmm I would have to say its between New York and the whole ground Zero area or Washington DC. He is a conservative and very political guess that's why he likes both of those places they are political.
Any more questions? Do I need to narrow down more?
Any more questions? Do I need to narrow down more?
This is helpful to get a picture of what he's like -
any other likes or dislikes you add may be helpful
Does he read books or magazines? Which ones?
Has he ever written you a love letter?
Any more questions? Do I need to narrow down more?
This is helpful to get a picture of what he's like -
any other likes or dislikes you add may be helpful
Italian food especially pesto, salads and home made olive oil dressing, he loves sunflower seeds, he played the drums at church he loved playing the drums, he likes red wines and tasting new beers from different countries and makers, he loves to travel, he wants to be an inventor he loves creating ideas because he really is an entrepreneur at heart, He hates Pie and pie crust, he LOVES ice cream, he can appreciate a beautiful clear so cal day, he likes hiking and taking in nature, the appreciates music, appreciates the ocean, loved chasing kids down the streets and try to catch them, loved tickling kids and me
Things he dislikes very much:He was always worried where ever we went that people are staring at him, He hates being looked at, he hated going to the movies because someone will kick his chair(now he goes and I guess its okay) He hated going shopping but now he likes its, he hates going to places like Disneyland because of the crowds, he despises getting drunk completely drunk he cannot handle it tho his drinking did increase but seems to have died down he said initially he did it to kill the guilt, he dislikes country music, hates talking and fears looking stupid and failing, has a fear he will never be an inventor or not wealthy, hates apologizing or being wrong( i know we all do but i always apologized just to kill fight)
Hmm I can think more do you need more?
Does he read books or magazines? Which ones?
Has he ever written you a love letter?
He wrote me the nicest Valentines note inside of the Card he gave me last year, i kept it on the counter until late summer. H never really wrote me things. He would just get a card that he felt said what he wanted to say. Its like he couldn't even open up to write me anything. I always longed for it but knew he was uncomfortable with it. He said sorry I didn't write much it says how i felt. But last year he wrote in it and I cried because he never did that, but then it went from EA to PA 2 weeks later, now i know why it was a cover up.
He said thanks for being there through all my ups and downs i know its been hard but i love you.
He doesn't read much, never has really but loves KFI talk radio. Hes more into TV than reading. He enjoy history very much and if he had to read a book it would be more of a pictorial with minor side notes maybe on space or all history, romans, american history he loves it all.
REALLY helpful stuff.
* thanks *
Does he listen to Dr Laura on KFI?
Okay he thinks Dr. Laura is wise and has good things to say but that she is a biatch. I say true but the people wont listen.
oh he hates Dr. Phil too and he used to hate loud boisterous people who attract attention to themselves, he hates if he thinks you are psychoanalyzing him or that there is anything wrong with him, he was that way Pre-A.
He loves his country and is a complete patriot and dislikes very much terrorism. Funny the dude is my personal terrorist LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Just kidding. He hates being late to events and he hates having no money but to him it hits him in his self esteem, guy thing maybe.
I am getting a picture of his core values ... no wonder he's in such a bad mood!
He can't stand what he currently stands for, a rule breaker.
Yes he would have looked at someone like himself and called him self a loser. He would have a called the OW a loser. He had major values but they just disappeared. He used to be intensely loyal but if you crossed his family you would basically die. Odd huh. Most people knew don't mess with MR. T2L's family.
HP, first you said this...
...I spoke to him recently and he is still very fogged,did a lot of 'babbling"
then you said this...
..He said that whenever I gave him a letter it just showed him that I wanted to control him and our marriage...that is all he saw....he said it pushed him further away.
You said your husband was foggy and babbling, then you want T2L to think that anything he said is valuable insight?
Your WS is still gaslighting you and justifying is horrid actions.
I know they don't deserve us to be loving and kind to them while they are in the throws of their affair,and as hard as it is I think we should still show them unconditional love..
We show our HUSBANDS love, NOT WH.
I KNOW ITS HARD...have boundaries,sure but don't be too hard/stubborn...if you feel doing this will put you in the luney bin,then rather do a dark plan B,for your own sanity and safety.
Loving unconditionally is one of the hardest things to do
HP, it sounds as if you are confused and think that appeasing the WAYWARD is the path to recovery.
Loving unconditionally is not the same thing as appeasement.
..but think what it will show him...
I think you are suggesting she show him he can have his cake and she will not expect him to behave as a GODLY HUSBAND should.
If you want to do everything possible to save your marriage,I feel you should give a little,hand him the olive branch so to speak...life is not black or white...emotions are involved here....
This is how I got into a false recovery, HP.
Sin is black and white.
She HAS REPEATEDLY SHOWN him that the door is open, when he is ready to BE A GODLY HUSBAND.
Settling for anything less would be a threat to her and her children's souls.
You have to give in order to receive...you reap what you sow....
Do you suggest she welcome her rapist into her home?
In his present state of mind he is NOT SAFE.
What are you sowing/saying to him?
She is saying, "I am a PRINCESS OF THE KING and I know that the KING will care and protect me."
Try see it from his perspective,keeping in mind that his an ALIEN,but underneath that persona is your husband..and that is who you are trying to reach....love conquers all..
Love conquers all. Yes, it does. Enabling conquers nothing.
She IS loving her husband. She loves him so much that she knows he must become sweetly broken and wholly surrendered. She knows that HIS SOUL depends on it.
You are suggesting she let the wayward continue to possess her husband until her husband is finally gone forever.
I know its scary and very difficult to do when your whole being is screaming for you to act differently,but what would Jesus do?
Jesus turned the tables in the Temple because of his righteous anger.
Jesus told us when a sinner refuses to turn away from his evil, have nothing to do with him.
Jesus said, Go and SIN NO MORE. He never said, Come and keep sinning.
T2L is fighting to save her husband and you are telling her to quit and let the wayward take her husband over.
Scripture says:
each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, gives birth to death. James 1:14-17
T2L's husband was tempted, dragged away and enticed. His sin is growing and will soon be full grown. The path his is on leads to death.
T2L must protect herself and her children from the path that leads to death.
I am at a loss over what the whole i don't want to answer to anyone crap is.
It's fog babble pure and simple.
Quit thinking that anything he says has any truth to it.
Later, after recovery, he said he KNEW that he was being defiant to God, but he was so lost, he just didn't care at the time. He said that prayer meeting at the church, hearing the words prayed and said over him nearly undid him, that he had to consciously continue to walk away, knowing full well he was in rebellion. My DH was arrogant too. The things he said to me were just plain cruel.
I began to lose hope big time after that. If God couldn't reach him, then he was probably gone for good.
What I didn't know until later is that God was still chasing after him. He put people in his path to remind him that God still loved him, wasn't done with him, even when he was out drinking in a bar. He never told me that until after we recovered.
I could tell a very similar story, almost word for word, except the drinking part.
I second this, T2L, do not lose hope.
I have been following your story from day 1.Just so you know my situation.....Dec 06 H's affair discoverd,had been going for 2 weeks,he moves in with OW.....Dec 08 divorce goes through and he marries OW 20 days later.
Now I did plan A, was hard as he had moved out..I did a weak plan B..wrote 2 letters to him..he did a lot of "thinking" about coming home but never acted on anything.
My point is this..I spoke to him recently and he is still very fogged,did a lot of 'babbling"..IMO when they read the PBL they don't see the crux of what we are saying to them..He said that whenever I gave him a letter it just showed him that I wanted to control him and our marriage...that is all he saw....he said it pushed him further away.
I know they don't deserve us to be loving and kind to them while they are in the throws of their affair,and as hard as it is I think we should still show them unconditional love..I KNOW ITS HARD...have boundaries,sure but don't be too hard/stubborn...if you feel doing this will put you in the luney bin,then rather do a dark plan B,for your own sanity and safety.
Loving unconditionally is one of the hardest things to do..but think what it will show him...
If you want to do everything possible to save your marriage,I feel you should give a little,hand him the olive branch so to speak...life is not black or white...emotions are involved here....
You have to give in order to receive...you reap what you sow....
What are you sowing/saying to him? Try see it from his perspective,keeping in mind that his an ALIEN,but underneath that persona is your husband..and that is who you are trying to reach....love conquers all..
I know its scary and very difficult to do when your whole being is screaming for you to act differently,but what would Jesus do?
I know this is not MB way....just my opinion...don't get to caught up in theoretical plans that may not work for you...
Remember,men are proud stubborn idiots at times. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face...so to speak.!JMHO..
I Cor. 5:5
Hand this man over to satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
I Cor. 5:9-13
I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--not at all--meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case, you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man, do not even eat.
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."
I'd really like to give this marriage a fighting chance.
I like both of these people very much!
YES - I even like this waynerd - I like him because he's managed to produce two AMAZING kids - and that is no accident!
I agree Pep. This man is worth fighting for.
Pep, I don't have your email.
T2L,
Ahhh. He said more than "I don't want to answer to anyone."
He came, and he stayed. Longer than he should have, and he knew that. He stayed, because he wanted you to come out to the garage,and he wanted you to break Plan B, and he wanted you to answer to his move - which was to break the stalemate.
He won, in a sense, but he is losing.
His words betray him.
He said, "I'm tired and it's late, and I figured I could stay."
Read those words again.
He was actually tired in more than one sense of the word. He got very tired of waiting for you to be the one to go to the garage and throw him out, which is what he wanted.
Only that isn't quite how it went down - you did a great job. Stayed quiet, and he ended up coming to you. And you told him how you felt, again. You are the broken record, and your words echo in his head. He betrays himself by telling you, "I figured I could stay." You see, he knows he can come back - and he is tired of the situation. And he wanted to do something to shake things up one way or the other, to break the stalemate, to talk again.
I don't think this is what he had in mind. I think he wanted you maybe to join in the game, join them at dinner, something different. I'm pretty sure his affair fantasy is over, because this night was saturated with his attempt at staying "at home" with you.
He left empty handed. Ouch.
The idea that he doesn't want to have to answer to anyone - now that is something very different from being controlled. Don't confuse the two at all.
I'm fairly certain his message here is that he wants something different in his life in terms of activities, and I think your idea of a MLC is probably spot-on. The affair is a symptom perhaps, and he's coming to realize that - I wonder if you brought the subject up for him about changes in people you might get a huge reaction from him, if you were to talk about it in a philosophical sense.
This concept that he doesn't want to answer to anybody may be quite broadly applied here. He may have fears that he is being judged (rightly so), and that he cannot possibly fix things. Also, that he wants to do things that he has never done before, but that other people will comment on the changes - and he does not want to have to deal with that issue. Many people go through this.
For example, say a person has always dressed cowboy style - his whole life. But he's sick of it, and really wants to change. What are the ramifications of changing? He's so locked in, everyone in his life will comment! He would practically have to move to New York City and get a new identity to do this without having to explain himself and not weather a storm of controversy and hassling. So your husband may be feeling the need for something different, a break from the old things - and not want to answer to anyone for the break. Does this make sense?
Talk to him about it. But think of it not in terms of controlling him - think of it in terms of him wanting to break from what he feels is his life's rut.
Don't make this about YOU. It isn't. His comment was SELF-DIRECTED!
"I" don't want to answer to anybody.
If it was about you, he would have said, "Stop telling me what to do."
SB
awesome SB !
T2L,
Ahhh. He said more than "I don't want to answer to anyone."
He came, and he stayed. Longer than he should have, and he knew that. He stayed, because he wanted you to come out to the garage,and he wanted you to break Plan B, and he wanted you to answer to his move - which was to break the stalemate.
He won, in a sense, but he is losing.
His words betray him.
He said, "I'm tired and it's late, and I figured I could stay."
Read those words again.
He was actually tired in more than one sense of the word. He got very tired of waiting for you to be the one to go to the garage and throw him out, which is what he wanted.
Only that isn't quite how it went down - you did a great job. Stayed quiet, and he ended up coming to you. And you told him how you felt, again. You are the broken record, and your words echo in his head. He betrays himself by telling you, "I figured I could stay." You see, he knows he can come back - and he is tired of the situation. And he wanted to do something to shake things up one way or the other, to break the stalemate, to talk again.
I don't think this is what he had in mind. I think he wanted you maybe to join in the game, join them at dinner, something different. I'm pretty sure his affair fantasy is over, because this night was saturated with his attempt at staying "at home" with you.
He left empty handed. Ouch.
The idea that he doesn't want to have to answer to anyone - now that is something very different from being controlled. Don't confuse the two at all.
I'm fairly certain his message here is that he wants something different in his life in terms of activities, and I think your idea of a MLC is probably spot-on. The affair is a symptom perhaps, and he's coming to realize that - I wonder if you brought the subject up for him about changes in people you might get a huge reaction from him, if you were to talk about it in a philosophical sense.
This concept that he doesn't want to answer to anybody may be quite broadly applied here. He may have fears that he is being judged (rightly so), and that he cannot possibly fix things. Also, that he wants to do things that he has never done before, but that other people will comment on the changes - and he does not want to have to deal with that issue. Many people go through this.
For example, say a person has always dressed cowboy style - his whole life. But he's sick of it, and really wants to change. What are the ramifications of changing? He's so locked in, everyone in his life will comment! He would practically have to move to New York City and get a new identity to do this without having to explain himself and not weather a storm of controversy and hassling. So your husband may be feeling the need for something different, a break from the old things - and not want to answer to anyone for the break. Does this make sense?
Talk to him about it. But think of it not in terms of controlling him - think of it in terms of him wanting to break from what he feels is his life's rut.
Don't make this about YOU. It isn't. His comment was SELF-DIRECTED!
"I" don't want to answer to anybody.
If it was about you, he would have said, "Stop telling me what to do."
SB
Whew okay a bunch of information there. Okay yes he was in bible school ready to get his bachelors in theology and soon to take over a church. He was very afraid and felt he would fail. He wanted to run from that and he wanted I think to "change" that. He had said that he wanted to do other things but yes I think he felt the pressure of every one looking at Pastor T2L. He felt like he did not want to be perfect. I can see what you are saying. Yes he was very locked in an if he just ran because of his fear he felt that no one would understand why.
He says over and over everyone is judging him although he has seen a few church friends and NO ONE has said anything including head pastor but I love you and miss you. I have told him numerous times that I will not place judgment on you thats between you and God. He told DD17 he feels like an idiot and knows he made a stupid mistake and i feel your right he doesn't think that he can fix it. He said last week that I only love him or want him so I won't mess up my image,, I don't understand really what he means.
He may want to do things he's never done before, I don't know. I do believe the affair is not great. I have no proof per say just a feeling based on a few comment hes made to me and the kids about how do we know he is with her.
Talk to him about it. But think of it not in terms of controlling him - think of it in terms of him wanting to break from what he feels is his life's rut.
As lame as that sounds I have no idea what to say or how to go about what you are talking about. I mean he is still living with her or at least I think so but I mean how great can it be if he wants to stay. He told DD17 he didn't want to leave. Any suggestions of how to implement what your talking about?
My brain is frying on how to figure out how.....
Okay yes he was in bible school ready to get his bachelors in theology and soon to take over a church. He was very afraid and felt he would fail. He wanted to run from that and he wanted I think to "change" that. He had said that he wanted to do other things but yes I think he felt the pressure of every one looking at Pastor T2L. He felt like he did not want to be perfect.
Just a thought... do you think that he thinks coming back to you means coming back to becoming a pastor? You'd allow him back if he met all your PBL conditions but wanted to not become a pastor and wanted to change churches, right? I mean, if God is really calling him to preach, then that's between him and God, it isn't one of your PBL requirements. I wonder if he thinks coming back to you means he has to return to this "calling" that he fears?
Had a pretty okay day today. The kids and I laughed a lot today at silly things. Haven't done that in so long, its almost like you have to learn how to laugh and find humor again.
So update, well any guesses???? Good thing he is now calling at 8:30 to talk to kids again. I guess during his talk to DS10 he asked about his bike. DS10 left his bike at a friends house about 3-4 months ago and we have just forgotten to get it with all we've been going through. So H says did you get your bike back yet and DS10 says not yet but it's in his back yard, they talk for a bit an hang up.
I get a text an hour later TELLING me, Just a reminder DS10 says his bike is still over at friends house so you should go get it tomorrow. Okay first off I told you yesterday that since you have given me the paydays we now have no further reason to talk at all and secondly did you just TELL ME to go get it tomorrow as If I have to listen to you or I had no plans? Am I missing something?
This dude is SOOOOO stinking Hillarious!
As usual, No I did not respond. What on earth is going through his mind??? Like he really cares about my son's bike. LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I can't really say why this is funny to me but its making he laugh!
Well Pep, let me know on the things you were re-thinking. i quite enjoyed Schoolbus's input and want her to read what I responded and what DD17 responded to as well. Did her response give you any ideas? BTW its good to have you back from your getaway!
Anyways taking the kids to the Getty Museum tomorrow. Its free and I would love for them to see the Art and its up on a hill so I think we may be able to see the entire Los Angeles basin.
By the way Hi to the other 2 IM's Neakie Pooh and Deleany Pooh!
So Lildoggie is making her way to the US in March, she will stopping in at my house I am sooooo excited and Hope3343 is planning to come it the week before I think. Lildoggie and I were thinking we should have an MB BBQ while she is here from NZ!!! I think its the week of March 11th.
So emailed Pastor told him I wanted 1 more week and I will return Feb 1st. He wants me to sing I am feeling nervous about it. Isn't that odd? We'll see.
Off to watch a movie and laugh some more that he texted me again, man thats good stuff rot thur. Boy apparently he may have lost his hearing now too LMAO!!!
So Lildoggie is making her way to the US in March, she will stopping in at my house I am sooooo excited and Hope3343 is planning to come it the week before I think. Lildoggie and I were thinking we should have an MB BBQ while she is here from NZ!!! I think its the week of March 11th.
Flick will be there too
Crysalis and Chewie, would be great to catch up with you again. Everyone else, would be great to put some faces and names together
.
If not in LA, then Seattle for Flicks stair climb!
Yer going to TX and yer not coming to see me???
your in TX?
I thought you lived in Canada!
Just to make sure...
what is TX?
oops... Texas? Isn't that where T2L is?
Um, maybe not... I think back when folks were discussing who could be IM... maybe it's CA?
she be in CA
Is that far?
Lessee... There's one state between CA and Seattle (but CA's a long state, big diff between northern CA and southern CA).
There's um... 2 states between me and Seattle... or 3 I suppose, depending on which way you go. And you're passing through just a bit of one... I dunno. Could be about the same, depending on where in CA.
Just asked her offlist, and have her permission to say 20 minutes north west of Los angeles
she be in CA
Is that far?
Hee. From Houston, Texas, to California, you could drive for 24 hours and still not be out of Texas! Two-thirds of the trip is spent just getting out of Texas. Then you have two more states to drive through before you hit California.
"Two-thirds of the trip is spent just getting out of Texas."
I remember doing that, and it is one long straight highway, no hills, no trees, no curves, just driving forever.
Wait a good week or 2 before you bother to get the bike.
Wait a good week or 2 before you bother to get the bike.
Yup Absolutely! I am so not going to get it now. Hilarious!
He just doesn't realize his hunny-do list is way past its expiration date.
I'm just catching up from WH's visit on Friday, when he wouldn't leave. I think that, given the circumstances, you did a GREAT job. He heard the same thing over and over; you were a broken record. While I understand what the other poster said about you repeating yourself three times and he's not "getting it" so you need to change your tactic... the way I see it is it's not like you have been contacting him different times and days via different methods and repeating the same story. I don't think your repetition falls into the category of "it didn't work before, why are you still trying it?" but rather into the category of NOT rewarding him for breaking Plan B. Broken record. Same old message. Nothing else to see here, citizen... move along.
So I think you handled it superbly.
Schoolbus' input is wonderful, as always; my big question to her is how the heck are you supposed to talk to WH about those things when you're in Plan B? Or is this supposed to wait until recovery begins?
He said last week that I only love him or want him so I won't mess up my image,, I don't understand really what he means.
Oh, me! me! Pick me!! I know what he's saying!!!
He's afraid that you don't
really want him back. How could you? He doesn't feel lovable, ergo he doesn't believe you could still love him. You say you truly want him back (under certain conditions) but he just can't swallow that, he loathes himself so much right now. How COULD you love him? So the only reason you could possibly want him back is because you don't want the stigma of a divorce. You don't want the stigma of your children being from a broken home. You will take him back to preserve the "happy family, happy marriage, happy happy" image. He just can't fathom anything else right now.
He came over and stayed FOR-EBBUH on Friday because there was a chink in your Plan B armor. He is hoping your resolve is failing. He's hoping you'll "forgive and forget".
He texted you about DS10's bike for the same reason: he's wanting back into your life and he's working hard to get there. He just wants to come home and forget about all this mess. He doesn't want to humble himself by admitting he was wrong, and he doesn't want to meet the conditions of the Plan B letter. He wants back, but he wants to come back HIS way, without a lot of effort and drama.
I agree here. I'm no expert, but I've had 5 false recoveries this year alone and he's now D-ing me.
My WH wanted to do the least bit to come back and, at the beginning, I just let him return. But I was a wreck at that time and both of us just wanted to sweep it under the rug. And each return usually began with WH calling me saying "we need to talk," a meeting where I felt like we were negotiating his return (yeah -- I should have stuck with "no negotiating with terrorist OR waywards"), SF, then a plan/timeline.
As time progressed, I added more stipulations (signed agreements, meeting with MC and priest, etc.). But the one thing he couldn't do is maintain N/C. OW just would not go away.
I know OW in my sitch is jealous, pushy, a D veteran (2) and willing to do anything to win the prize.
I wonder if keeping him away during this Plan B may have led to the start of D. But, then again, after of year of back and forth without commitment, I needed to fully embrace Plan B if I were ever to move forward -- whether recovery or D. Hopefully, the start of Plan D isn't necessary the end of M.
I agree she did great, especially for having no warning this would happen, and no time to plan.
However, since there is a high likelihood of this happening again, Pep and Schoolbus are priming her pump so she can not only hold up her end of PB, but perhaps change the dynamic when he's trying to break through...come back his way.
I agree she did great, especially for having no warning this would happen, and no time to plan.
However, since there is a high likelihood of this happening again, Pep and Schoolbus are priming her pump so she can not only hold up her end of PB, but perhaps change the dynamic when he's trying to break through...come back his way.
Yeah need more help on "how to" do that. But I highly doubt after being turned down to spend the night that he is going to try and ask again. I'm sure he would feel like an idiot, plus the visit won't happen like that again as DS10 has been fully warned.
Pep mentioned something about changing of strategy, ur ya dun thinkin bout that yet? So tell me what is it mah dear?
However, since there is a high likelihood of this happening again, Pep and Schoolbus are priming her pump so she can not only hold up her end of PB, but perhaps change the dynamic when he's trying to break through...come back his way.
I agree that there is a high likelihood of this happening again. He's broken through her Plan B a couple of times and he tried to weasel in again with the text about the bike. He's gotten rewarded for breaking Plan B and you betcha he's needing his T2L fix so he's going to be devious and persistent.
I agree too that the dynamics probably need to change but danged if I can figure out how to do this w/o breaking Plan B.
Pep mentioned something about changing of strategy, ur ya dun thinkin bout that yet? So tell me what is it mah dear?
Your best guess -
How much does WH worry he's losing you for real?
Pep mentioned something about changing of strategy, ur ya dun thinkin bout that yet? So tell me what is it mah dear?
Your best guess -
How much does WH worry he's losing you for real?
IDK. I don't even think he thinks about it truly. He thinks only of himself. In his eyes, he views me as an enemy to..."doing what he wants" or an enemy to "not answering to anyone". I don't know if he thinks about losing me.
My guess is he may think he can do this forever or that because I reaffirmed my desire for marriage but said I can't make you love me or want the marriage he feels powerful over his enemy..me.
So truly IDK. I don't know that he will try to contact again. I doubt it, he doesn't like rejection and may not want to risk it again.
I am unsure how to implement SB's recommendations from that perspective. I need like a dialog example or something, but then I am in PB so IDK IDK IDK...And why do ya ask?
You really had no control over your WH --bust down the door to ask you an "important question" tatic. You did well.
Do you think he sees this going on forever? I mean you know him the best. You have given him his options-- it is natural to wonder "well, what next?"
You have mentioned the one year mark before. What does that mean to you?
With you going back into a dark plan b- he will get thie picture that you have really changed. Expect some other trick soon, I imagine.
Nothing else to write except I admire you ability to stay positive.
Your best guess -
How much does WH worry he's losing you for real?
IDK. I don't even think he thinks about it truly. He thinks only of himself. In his eyes, he views me as an enemy to..."doing what he wants" or an enemy to "not answering to anyone". I don't know if he thinks about losing me.
Pep, I don't think T2L can answer this question. He is hurting her so badly she cannot imagine that he might be laying in his bed awake all night wrestling with God about being a prodigal. She can't imagine that he might be missing her.
T2L, is my memory correct in thinking that neither you nor T2L has filed anything legally? What has he said/done about divorce?
He is dead set against D, to avoid the "financial devastation".
:RollieEyes:
He is dead set against D, to avoid the "financial devastation".
:RollieEyes:
decoy reason
yes!
Hmmm....... I *really* like where you're going with this, Pep.
T2L, is my memory correct in thinking that neither you nor T2L has filed anything legally? What has he said/done about divorce?
I kinda feel like what Schoolbus said about the Stalemate, but I could be wrong. I think he could go on like this forever. He is stubborn, its a good and a bad thing. Has anyone here on MB been in a stalemate and what was the result?
He told DD17 during there lunch last week(you can read the entire convo on her thread, I'll try to bump it today) that he made a dumb mistake he is embarrassed. He told her that when we communicated(Plan a) that he had so much hope and was really happy because he was around all of us and that he was close to coming home(but that's hearsay, it could have gone on like that for a while). DD17 said so you thought about coming home, and he responds yes, but then when I spoke to him that night I took the call he mentioned NOTHING he had said to her.
During Plan A I think he may have wanted come home but he kept saying time needs to take its place. I think he probably can't figure out how to break from her or is torn between us. He said I cannot hurt anyone else and I replied well the kids and I are hurting, he said I know.
No he has not filed nor have I. He said during Plan A that he heard on a radio station that if you cannot get along try your best to avoid filing for divorce as it will be financial destruction. I replied good thing I'm not in it for the money and grinned. I feel he knows I will drag it on, try to get the courts to put some of my fees on him since I have been a stay at home wife for 19 years. So I feel he doesn't want to file because financially it will destroy him and not because he doesn't want to part with me. Hes all about trying to keep his credit good and trying to get debt free.
Pre-SAA, during one of our few conversations I told him that i didn't deserve to be alone and sit her and wait around and he said if you need to get a divorce because you can't date unless you do it right then go ahead, file if you need to.
So yes he, for the most part, doesn't want a divorce for financial reasons, but he has also suggested it and if sent to him would probably lose it all because of stubbornness.
Although there are other ways of looking like you may be losing your wife and can be mentioned somehow....
Wanna See? I have been told by numerous men, even a FWS that he would snap out of it if he thought......But is that an LB? Now I don't mean actually doing that just appearing that way.
Nutting new. Still in PB
Anyways, He forgot to call DS10 for the 2nd day in a row. You'd think if your son didn't talk to you for 3 weeks and now is visiting with you, you would try a bit harder. When I tucked DS10 in he said mom how come dad hasn't called me in 2 days and I say honey IDK. I say you can ask but you may hear an excuse. He says well doesn't he know that I am not mad anymore and I say yes honey I am sorry he didn't call but I am not making excuses for him.
Anyways, his visiting days are Mon, Thurs and rotating Sat & Sundays. So he texts DD17 tonight, after 10PM, and he says I forgot to call Gabe again is he still awake. Is he crazy its 10 PM!!!! HE said he was in the area and he wanted to come visit so DD17 told me the convo. I was unsure which way to go with the response, I could have said no its not his day but I told her to say IKD Dad, DS10 has school in the morning and then mom is signing him up for a home school swimming class on Tuesdays and Thursdays from 11-12. He said well I'll call you when I'm in the area, maybe I can come say hello.
I didn't say no for this reason. I know there are several in Plan B right now with small children who still have to see their spouses but keep it brief. My thoughts were maybe an occasional run in that is very brief but still PB would be good so he doesn't become indifferent, outta sight outta mind kinda IDK. Obviously it would not be a PA as it's just a Plan B but with dealing with kids. Correct me if I am wrong or y'all think it would damage my PB. What do you think.
I like the way Pep was kinda thinking. Maybe he does need a decoy wake up call of some kind.....
I see your reasoning, but I am very concerned that this is just him pushing your boundaries to see what he can get away with. What next?
You sound like a really sincere person, T2L.
Are you thinking that if you "dated" or appeared to be communicating with another man -- it would change the way your H thinks about the M?
I have no advice on that one, but could you spend time with someone, and not have an emotional or ethical conflict?
I mean, I would not- as long as the guy friend understands whats up.
I know quite a few MB'ers think there can be NO friends of the opposite sex (one bitten, twice shy) But I am one of the few who think it (male friends) can happen.
Just like the difference between having a drink and getting drink
Placing a bet- and/or losing your paycheck.
If you have the former- don't drink at all.
If you have the latter- stay away from the casino.
and
--if you have a "problem" with opposite sex friends- do not have any.
just my humble.
Girl, you live close to Hollywood, you can go hire one of those cute male models (any hasbeen calvin klien underwear model!),
When H comes for one of his visits, you and anyone cute can be taking walk down the street strolling with a cup of latte.
Serious impact. It will be worth every penny. One picture is worth a thousand words.
A decoy does not necessarily mean a man.
sheesh!
Decoy??? Man, woman, dog, diamonds???
I like the decoy thing. I wouldn't actually date someone anyways. LOL I just thought, the thought or appearance of it would maybe rattle his cage.
I would feel bad actually dragging another person into this even if it was only for appearance. Even if I didn't like em, what if they started being attracted to me.
So attitude, huh. How the heck to would I do that with attitude? I mean I really do not see him or talk to him, just that 1 phone call where it seemed like he was getting close and then last week when I didn't notify DS10 his father is not allowed to hang out here.
Other than that I had not seen him or heard a peep from him and vise versa for 9 weeks. I don't really anticipate more of that. So how attitude my Lil Pepster??
Y'all mean a woman dressed as a dude? Either that or the blow up kind, I'm sorry that's all I can think of now.... :MrEEk:
'sides that...I got nothin.
I mean, you could put an inflatable boyfriend in the passenger seat... as WH pulls up-- you drive off.
You can "wave" his inflatable arm at him, even <squeek, squeek>
...I think your WH is so foggy, he won't notice a thing wrong!
That's something that would happen on a sitcom! And then, the "doll" would spring a leak and go flying out the window with the WH looking on!
Maybe to what's-her-name, the clutzy one on Desperate Housewives?
So, I logged on and decided to read the newest page on T2L's thread.
:MrEEk:
Now I have been back and can see what lead to the posts I first saw......
:crosseyedcrazy:
Your all nuts
That's something that would happen on a sitcom! And then, the "doll" would spring a leak and go flying out the window with the WH looking on!
And her response to WH?
What man? Flying out the window? You REALLY need to slow down on your partying.
You guys are all funny as heck and I don't mean to be a wet blanket but T2L you *do* realize that playing games (like pretending to be dating or hiring the underwear model) is a very bad way to attract a spouse back in to the M, right?
'course, there's *nothing* that says a gal can't dream! Calvin underwear man, move over and make room for lil turtle!
Wasnt there a BW that did this tho?
I seem to remember she was dropping the kids off at WH's and dressed like she was going out and had a suitcase/overnight bag in the car where he could see it.
Wasnt there a BW that did this tho?
I seem to remember she was dropping the kids off at WH's and dressed like she was going out and had a suitcase/overnight bag in the car where he could see it.
Oh, sure, NO PROBLEM letting him see you have a life!!
Let him wonder what he's missing out on.
He can sit in the driveway eating turkey flavored Ramen and wonder what great fun adventure T2L is up to. His imagination will be lots more powerful than anything she could possibly really be doing.
I mean, you could put an inflatable boyfriend in the passenger seat... as WH pulls up-- you drive off.
You can "wave" his inflatable arm at him, even <squeek, squeek>
...I think your WH is so foggy, he won't notice a thing wrong!
LMAO Okay only if he's a HOT Blow up guy!!!!!
You guys are all funny as heck and I don't mean to be a wet blanket but T2L you *do* realize that playing games (like pretending to be dating or hiring the underwear model) is a very bad way to attract a spouse back in to the M, right?
'course, there's *nothing* that says a gal can't dream! Calvin underwear man, move over and make room for lil turtle!
Yes I realize that. It's a good point. I can only really see this ending in a stalemate. H knows that my personality is intensely loyal and he knows that I would basically wait almost forever. How do I get him to view me in another light? Its like he's riding the wave of T2L is so loyal....I hate it!
Wasnt there a BW that did this tho?
I seem to remember she was dropping the kids off at WH's and dressed like she was going out and had a suitcase/overnight bag in the car where he could see it.
OH really, tell me more and what happened....
It's been quite a while and I don't remember who it was but she'd do stuff like have two coffee cups sitting on the table instead of just one. Or he'd come to pick up the kids and she'd be dressed to the nines and as the kids went out the door so did she... to her car, and drove off, leaving him wondering where she was going. She never did anything to suggest she was in a relationship - that is, no dozen roses or anything like that. Just suggesting she was having a LIFE. Cruise brochure open and thumbed through, that kind of thing.
I'm trying to think how you could incorporate this into your Plan B. You're trying to stay super dark right now, so no "accidental" glimpses of you. He's not allowed in the house so it's not easy to leave stuff out.
Maybe when you know he's going to visit the kids you could say to the kids "I have been wanting to go to that comedy club for some time now; I think I'll call up a friend and go while you're with your Dad, so don't worry about me if I'm not back yet when you come home." Let the news filter back that way. You know he's going to ask the kids "How's your Mom?" Everything else will take care of itself. Nobody has to lie, nobody has to tell any stories. All that matters is that you are LIVING and he's not.
Hey what about this, might not be a good idea but just a thought. He has a few items of mail that comes here to the house. I put it in an envelope and send it to him. Stuff like DD17 car payment. Could I write the return address in my maiden name and instead of my last name? Could that suggest some kind of living my life? OR would that suggest I want a divorce? What do y'all think?
I think it would suggest detachment
I think it would suggest detachment
Geez.....
Man this is harder than I thought. I mean Turtle is right I don't see the dude. The kids usually meet him away from the house since I got sick of him parking his car in my front yard while they ran of in DD17's car for the visit. Now they meet where ever they go. I just don't see him, which I guess is good.
Its kinda hard to really look like your living a huge life. I've got 2 kids home full time with home school and finances are a bit of an issue for extra things so I cant really look like I'm doing a whole lot ya know.
Its kinda hard to really look like your living a huge life.
A-hem
Is he due to see the kids around the 9th of march?
There was a BW who did this, and I think she posted on recovery. Maybe Pep will remember. Anyway, it was a wonderful story, and she was a good writer.
When hubby came to see the kids, she was all dressed up, and out the door she went. Actually, as I recall, she went to the library and read books, or WalMart for a coke.
Its kinda hard to really look like your living a huge life.
A-hem
Is he due to see the kids around the 9th of march?
Well actually his B-day is March 11! You're right I'll be having guests from New Zealand!
Its kinda hard to really look like your living a huge life.
A-hem
Is he due to see the kids around the 9th of march?
Ok so what do y'all think. Lildoggie is coming to see me in March. H knows that I have no friends or acquaintances in New Zealand. The kids know i have friends from there coming in March. DS10 doesn't know how i know them but DD17 knows I met her here. So they actually could talk about them coming. this could look like I have a life LOLOLOLOL what a sad comment LOL
It would drive him crazy to know how the heck I have friends there and why they are staying with me.
What about that?
Blowup dolls?
I am SO out of my league!
There was a BW who did this, and I think she posted on recovery. Maybe Pep will remember. Anyway, it was a wonderful story, and she was a good writer.
When hubby came to see the kids, she was all dressed up, and out the door she went. Actually, as I recall, she went to the library and read books, or WalMart for a coke.
I've been trying to remember her name all day long... was it something like Carol???
She never actually DID anything untoward - but- she allowed her WH's imagination to run amok- it was brilliant.
She worked with a marriage coach - who would call her or text her...
In other words - she eventually tweaked his imagination so much that HE started to pursue HER (because he sensed she was no longer hanging around waiting for him to return)- and for awhile she was way too busy to be any more than briefly polite with WH before she had to "rush off" to make an "appointment with a friend".
I live close enough - we could go out on a "date" sometime
Also - some cool gifts might make their way into DS10's hot little hands (unusual stuff , like a TV show baseball cap
)
I know you really can't use an underwear model, but that thought cheered me up all day with that visual.
Ok another idea, remember the original "home alone"? How when the kid knew the robbers were casing the house and he set up a "fake party"? Well you could set up the same type thing when H comes to pick up the kids, people passing in front of the windows, loud music, laughter. That should get his attention. lol just another random thought
Well lots to think about I am loving what the other BS did and I think there may be some way I can duplicate that.
I can't wait to see What DS10 gets to see
Today DS10 went to his 1st swim class and then in the evening he went to the jui jitsu class. He had a great time with both. Hard thing is they are both on the same days. One in the morning and one in the evening.
So H called 3 times today since he FORGOT to call DS10 on Sunday and Monday...how you forget is beyond me. Now I guess he's in make up mode. 2 times DS10 didn't want to make the time to answer, not my fault. I asked him if he wanted to answer he said no.
So he talked to DD17 for about 20 minutes. She told him about DS10's swim class and jui jitsu class and other small talk.
Originally I had told DD17 not to tell dad about my friends from NEw Zealand coming but then I thought well he should know that I am still living so I told both of them that my friends(LILdoggie and Flick) are coming in March and they will be staying for a few days. They are looking forward to it, especially when I said they are bringing you candy from over there. DD17 mentioned it to her dad and he was like well who is it? What are they doing? Are they staying at the house? I think his brain is twisted. He has no idea who I know in New Zealand. LOLOLOL Too bad I would love for him to meet them to, and all my IM's.
Anyways off ta bed, pooped all this running around... today.
There was a BW who did this, and I think she posted on recovery. Maybe Pep will remember. Anyway, it was a wonderful story, and she was a good writer.
When hubby came to see the kids, she was all dressed up, and out the door she went. Actually, as I recall, she went to the library and read books, or WalMart for a coke.
I've been trying to remember her name all day long... was it something like Carol???
She never actually DID anything untoward - but- she allowed her WH's imagination to run amok- it was brilliant.
She worked with a marriage coach - who would call her or text her...
\
Was it CarolKH?
here
Blowup dolls?
I am SO out of my league!
Oh dear Lord!
I just spewed orange soda on my keyboard.
Yes! That is the thread. It makes great reading. Thanks, Melody.
I know that T2L is in Plan B, but many of the ideas are doable.
I remember buying nice lingerie and hanging it on the back of the bathroom door. My ex noticed it and wanted to know why I bought new lingerie - LOL.
Oh yes I remember reading her thread!
Cool, check out this part:
He says he is calling from my house. I say I am parked along the side of the road taking the call (I was). He says he is going to go to EA's house and finish it with her. I tell him he does not have to do that...everyone needs friends. He says he has to do it, because he does not ever want me to worry about her. I say, whatever, but I am not telling you what to do (he said before that I am too controlling...actually he is just passive-aggressive and they all think the spouse is controlling even tho we might not be!) So we hang up.
Any of that sound familiar???
----Oh BTW, I know underwear models prolly wear real clothes out in public, but every time someone mentioned hiring an underwear model to be seen with walking down the street, I pictured them IN their underwear!
Oh BTW, I know underwear models prolly wear real clothes out in public, but every time someone mentioned hiring an underwear model to be seen with walking down the street, I pictured them IN their underwear!
It is only when we start picturing them without their undies that we will all be in trouble. teehee.
My H completely lost it when he thought I was dating. I looked great when I was dropping our daughter off at his apartment on his birthday. He noticed I looked good and that I was in a good mood and then I answered my phone and he heard me saying what time I would be meeting the person on the phone. He asked where I was going and I said to meet someone for a drink. He got really mad and told me that he couldn't believe I was dating already. I told him "are you crazy you started dating before you walked out on me". He told me to leave so I kissed my daughter good bye and left. He called me and we argued on the phone. Then about an hour later he called me repeatedly (like 15 times) and I didn't answer my phone. He then called me using our daughters cell phone which he knew I could not ignore. I answered and he told me he loved me and wanted to go to marriage counseling. The next day when I went to pick up our daughter he was crying and told me how sorry he was and how much he loved me. We have been in recovery ever since.
I've told this story before on here and gotten blasted for it, but it was a real turning point for my H.
I have been reading Carol old thread. Absolutely amazing. After 15 months she reconciled her M. I like her last resort techniques. Take the time and read this.
I mean, you could put an inflatable boyfriend in the passenger seat... as WH pulls up-- you drive off.
You can "wave" his inflatable arm at him, even <squeek, squeek>
...I think your WH is so foggy, he won't notice a thing wrong!
LMAO Okay only if he's a HOT Blow up guy!!!!!
I am picturing Trying2live as Eliane the Stewardess from the movie "Airplane!" sitting next to the "Automatic Pilot"
That's HER!!!
The bit where she had a slinky dress and suitcase in the car for her WH to see was classic.
That's HER!!!
The bit where she had a slinky dress and suitcase in the car for her WH to see was classic.
Thanks Melody gonna start reading that this morning. Here's my problem tho. How can I do that if he is never hear. I had been having the DD17 take her and DS10 to meet him somewhere else. Should I have him meet them here too and just happen to walk out in a hot dress while they are leaving too? Cuz I can to that ya know and then stay gone til night time. Otherwise he will never see or hear too much.
I did however tell the kids that I know someone(Hee hee hee
) who works for the movie studios that scouts for locations and wants me to send some pictures of the house. That is a true story BTW. But I am sure his little brain would start turning. Yesterday he found out I am having visitors from New Zealand and now filming movies LOLOLOLOLOLOL He would probably wonder where the heck is she meeting all these people. I think I may take an overnight trip with a girlfriend next month if I can swing it. We'll see....
Hey T2L, you can really blow his mind and tell H you are leaving for Texas for a weekend. He will be stratching his head saying WTH, who does she know there???
I have been reading Carol sitch, it really is something.
Thanks Melody gonna start reading that this morning. Here's my problem tho. How can I do that if he is never hear. I had been having the DD17 take her and DS10 to meet him somewhere else. Should I have him meet them here too and just happen to walk out in a hot dress while they are leaving too? Cuz I can to that ya know and then stay gone til night time. Otherwise he will never see or hear too much.
I did however tell the kids that I know someone(Hee hee hee
) who works for the movie studios that scouts for locations and wants me to send some pictures of the house. That is a true story BTW. But I am sure his little brain would start turning. Yesterday he found out I am having visitors from New Zealand and now filming movies LOLOLOLOLOLOL He would probably wonder where the heck is she meeting all these people. I think I may take an overnight trip with a girlfriend next month if I can swing it. We'll see....
Well - your faithful IM crew is still brainstorming - but one thing if for sure - we agree to tighten the thumbscrews of WH's PERCEPTION.
It's the perception that matters.
Plan to follow very soon.
Hmm.. I guess he never takes the kids for an overnight visit since he lives out of town (with the Sea Hag?)? Otherwise, maybe you could ask (through your IMs) if he could take the kids on a certain weekend cus you are going out of town? Is there a way you could do *something* like this - ask him to take DS10 to all his activities one weekend cus you're gonna be out of town that day, and DD has to work or something?
T2L, since you don't want the kids to go to Sea Hag's house, plan a weekend away (Texas?) and leave H at your house with the kids and you making nC with him but calling the kids on their cells. He will go crazy.
LOL then you can leave a Victoria's Secret bag and receipt in your underwear drawer!
T2L, since you don't want the kids to go to Sea Hag's house, plan a weekend away (Texas?) and leave H at your house with the kids and you making nC with him but calling the kids on their cells. He will go crazy.
Yeah but I don't want to give him access to the house. If I let him in for a weekend wouldn't that legally give him rights again? I think if a WS has been out of the home for over 5 months then legally they cannot come in any longer, they lose their rights too.
what great imaginations we have. we should all be writing for sitcoms. A new series...
Fog babble aliens:twobyfour:
Man this thread is great! So it sounds like she never went to a Plan B. So she stayed in a Plan A for a really long time.
IM's have you read this Thread?!?!?! Its really good!
Try - you don't have to replicate Carol's incident - only her attitude!
She got a life. She was determined that anything he "saw" was going to truly be his reality, whether or not it was "real" when he saw it.
For you, you don't have to be "seen" by him - he hangs on every scrap of news about you he can pump subtly out of his children.
Start your own version of creative living your life - after all, they say "living well is the best revenge".
T2L, please check your email.
Love you!
T2L, please check your email.
Love you!
Got it and responded.
Got an idea. Last night he talks with DS10. Well during the convo he says so is your sister home what is she doing? Then he asks DS10 is your mom home? So I think several nights this week I am going to leave 20 minutes before his call and come back 20 minutes after just to leave a window. I will just tell DS10 that I have to go out for a few and I will be back. DD17 is usually here so she can watch him. Think I will leave my phone here just in case he has it tracked with GPS, I don't think it is as I didn't notice it on the cell phone bill. So really I would only be gone 30 minutes. Then when he asks DS10 where I am he can say IDK. So if this keep happening it will start to bug him I am pretty sure of that. Maybe I can even say I am going to coffee with a friend and just go to coffee shop. Then kids can say she went to get coffee with a friend.
Okay I have this other idea, but not sure if it will work because of PB. Okay my kitchen sink is leaking. I am not very gifted in the mechanical repairs dept. I may be able to figure it out if I google it or something. Here's my options. 1-call the home warranty company and have them do it, but its like 55$ and I think truly the problem looks like its a washer that may need replacing and would only cost 5$. Or have H come and fix it and while he walks in I can walk out in a slamming hot dress to look like I gotta important date. But If he comes in he may stay like last time and how can I get him out? Might not be that great for PB.
Or I can tell the kids they no longer have to meet him he can meet you at the house to pick you guys up and then when he pulls up I can walk out in a hot dress.
What do you guys think?
Maybe I can even say I am going to coffee with a friend and just go to coffee shop. Then kids can say she went to get coffee with a friend.
Okay I am slow, I have seen this darn comment, what on earth does this mean LMAP LMAO LMAO!!! Translate Pepster!!!
have H come and fix it and while he walks in I can walk out in a slamming hot dress to look like I gotta important date. But If he comes in he may stay like last time and how can I get him out?
Yes!
How do you get him out? You say, I'm so grateful you came. Let me walk you to the door.
Or I can tell the kids they no longer have to meet him he can meet you at the house to pick you guys up and then when he pulls up I can walk out in a hot dress.
Yes!
EGG ZAK LEE
Here is what ya do (jeeze!)
Get a Pay for Minutes only phone from Krogers. (Wal mart) You can get them free sometimes (if you buy minutes) I got my 12 year old one (free phone if you buy min) for $50.00 (It came with 500 min--10 cent a min). Pay cash.
NEXT: You get a guy you know, any guy with a GREAT VOICE To record the following message- on the voice mail to the new phone line:
"Hello, you have reached Dillinger Enterprizes. This is William- <Charles, Chett, Jordan-- anything sexy>. Please leave a short message, and your phone number and I will get in touch with you as soon as I get back into the office."
...............beep.
Now you call that f-in number 5 times a day! NOW-- From that phone-- You call your own phone and the house phone BACK 10 times a day.
Let the phone stand on for 45 min -- about 10 p.m.
Remember Wh is only going to get your phone and house activity. He will not be able to get the new phone's acitivity (so it can sit still besides calling you)
You think YOU watch your cell/phone numbers? WH can (and I'm sure gets) the same info you do.
WH WILL call the new phone number- and will (all the time) get that beautiful voicemail.
He will be sure he is being "screened out". This will drive him nutz-- because he will see that you are "talking" while he can't get the guy to answer.
Do not tell your DD or DS. It would be nice if you could get one to say "jeeze, mom always seems to be tied up on the phone, now a days!" when they are on visitation.
If you would like more of my diabolical plot... please advise.
Or I can tell the kids they no longer have to meet him he can meet you at the house to pick you guys up and then when he pulls up I can walk out in a hot dress.
Yes!
EGG ZAK LEE
LOLOLOLOL I figured it out right after I hit submit! Darn! I could have looked so wise too! Fooey.
Not sure I he would go for the let me walk you to the door thing...hmmm...but I could have him take the kids out to eat afterwards....or I could somehow say the sink needs fixing but because it causes me pain to see you I would have to ask that you leave once you are finished? Kids know the sink is broken on one side because I have asked them to not put dishes in that side. They could mention it, I'm positive that as soon as he finds out he's gonna want to fix it. What do you think about all that????
Love LOVE LOVE the idea of being gone to the coffee shop during the phone call! Spectacular!
At first I didn't like the idea of asking him to fix the leak because it will encourage him to try and break your Plan B. He's already proven that he'd like you to just cave and let him weasel his way back into the home (without him having to change his selfish ways).
But the more I think about it, the more I like it. You could have some kind of "get a life" evidence on the kitchen table or counter by the phone or something... cruise brochure, vacation cottage rentals, whatever. I'd scribble something vague on it (in red) like "Rates go up late March" so it doesn't look like junk mail but something you're actively looking into.
Try to arrange the pipe leak fix through the IMs and let him know you'd like him to be gone by 6:00 p.m. or whatever. Hopefully he won't even see you during the leak-fixing event.
After the pipe-fixing, you can agree to let him pick up/drop off kids at the house. Then at a pick up time you can go get in your car looking like a million bucks.
I'd strive very hard to not engage in real contact. Just glimpses and sightings. Go through the IMs.
But get other folks' input on this, for sure. I never did Plan B myself so this is just guesswork.
Here is what ya do (jeeze!)
Get a Pay for Minutes only phone from Krogers. (Wal mart) You can get them free sometimes (if you buy minutes) I got my 12 year old one (free phone if you buy min) for $50.00 (It came with 500 min--10 cent a min). Pay cash.
NEXT: You get a guy you know, any guy with a GREAT VOICE To record the following message- on the voice mail to the new phone line:
"Hello, you have reached Dillinger Enterprizes. This is William- <Charles, Chett, Jordan-- anything sexy>. Please leave a short message, and your phone number and I will get in touch with you as soon as I get back into the office."
...............beep.
Now you call that f-in number 5 times a day! NOW-- From that phone-- You call your own phone and the house phone BACK 10 times a day.
Let the phone stand on for 45 min -- about 10 p.m.
Remember Wh is only going to get your phone and house activity. He will not be able to get the new phone's acitivity (so it can sit still besides calling you)
You think YOU watch your cell/phone numbers? WH can (and I'm sure gets) the same info you do.
WH WILL call the new phone number- and will (all the time) get that beautiful voicemail.
He will be sure he is being "screened out". This will drive him nutz-- because he will see that you are "talking" while he can't get the guy to answer.
Do not tell your DD or DS. It would be nice if you could get one to say "jeeze, mom always seems to be tied up on the phone, now a days!" when they are on visitation.
If you would like more of my diabolical plot... please advise.
Man oh Man my LIL Barbiecat, you naughty little gurl!!!! I love you!!!! Where did you get that brilliant mind of yurs?!?!?! Boy you are good! Yeah the cell bill I think goes to him. But i have an account created for my numbers so i can see the access. I do know he is looking too as he told DD17 to not use the 411 service so much so yes i agree he is looking too. This is great!!! I'll buy it next week! Whooo whooo! Yeah send em on down.....
The beauty of this is that WH will garner this info sooner or later. HE will pick it up ON HIS OWN.
Let him stumble on it.
Hopefull you will have quite a few "weeks" of activity recorded.
Find a guy that your kids may not reconginse, In case DD gets curious- best to keep them out.
and the true shock and cluelessness on their faces will be all it takes for your WH to realize-- they really don't know what is up.
The best defence... you know. Look like a deer in the headlights when DD says "dad wants to know who Joe Schmoe is".
and reply, coily>sp? "just tell dad IDK."
If you want me to erase the above post (for DD sake) I will.
Next lesson: rejected/returned gift plot.
The beauty of this is that WH will garner this info sooner or later. HE will pick it up ON HIS OWN.
Hopefull you will have quite a few "weeks" of activity recorded.
The best defence... you know. Look like a deer in the headlights when DD says "dad wants to know who Joe Schmoe is".
and reply, coily>sp? "just tell dad IDK."
Now do you think that he will get discouraged if he thinks someone else is in the picture. I mean I dont want him to give up either....
What if I just leave the message as the generic one? He wont know either way. He can go nuts trying to figure out and then it's not exactly lying...
Ok so just complained in front of the DD17 about the sink...and said this is the problem of not having dad around....
Man oh Man my LIL Barbiecat, you naughty little gurl!!!! I love you!!!! Where did you get that brilliant mind of yurs?!?!?!
Now do you think that he will get discouraged if he thinks someone else is in the picture. I mean I dont want him to give up either....
I doubt it.
Ark had a post once about appearing like you are moving on. As I recall, she suggested buying yourself flowers and putting in a vase, ask friends to save their used ticket stubs and leave lying by the sink, new lingerie hanging somewhere, notations on calendar, brochures for a cruise, you get the idea.
These ideas ROCK!!! Wow the cell phone one.... truly diabolical! Heeheehee...
About having him fix the sink, that's great cus that was something he liked doing so much in Plan A... unless that makes it a nono in PB but IMHO it would bring up all sorts of good memories and feelings... and then he'd see evidence that he may be running out of time...
just wondering... is he still refusing to communicate through the IMs?
That, I thought was your point.
The guy could be a contractor.
I'm giving you my hard core best ideas...jeeze.
Speaking of hard core:
Scenario #2.
the kids go with their father to the mall on visits, right?
well in the next few weeks...
Buy a Victoria's Secret gift card. Give it to your daughter. Tell her
you got this is a
gift (a gift of advice from me)
Get the gift card with the sexyist picture on it.
and tell your DD the store was "way too crazy" and "over the top" for you and you were shy and not sure about buying anthing there.
Tell her you noticed cute, cute stuff in the PINK Store-- and she is welcome to use/have your gift card (on the visit with WH, of course)
Tell her SHE can use it, you think in the PINK store. Have her ask her DAD if he knows if she can use the card there.
(cute shirts, pants, stuff there....not all undies)
Believe me, DD will not care WHO it came from, but she will LOVE to get PINK clothing- if she is like any teenager here. I'm sure this will all come out in the trip to the mall.
Let your WH wonder WHO gave you this card, and
why would you reject it from the gifter.
Oh yeah, am I dumb- do this the weeks before Valentines Day.
--hello, Nan-
The point is, you don't want to be really obvious, you want to appear as if you are being coy. Hence phone calls at night and ..when kids are not around-
...giving racy gift card over so DD can buy teen items.
Okay going to get brochures today. Called them already and they are gathering them for me.
The great thing is he knows i have asked for half of the tax return because I want to take kids on a cruise or trip or something. So if he comes and sees them out it will just verify what I have asked.
Ark had a post once about appearing like you are moving on. As I recall, she suggested buying yourself flowers and putting in a vase, ask friends to save their used ticket stubs and leave lying by the sink, new lingerie hanging somewhere, notations on calendar, brochures for a cruise, you get the idea.
Okay I'm on it. Gonna put out feelers for ticket stubs today. Brochures I pick up in a few hours. DD17 and I are going to hang pictures of our 2 day trips we have taken to the Griffith Observatory and Getty museum. LOL
Ok he knows I always hang my clothing that i do not dry above my bathroom door on hangers. Some of the lingerie he has not seen because I bought it just before the A, so I can hang that baby up. When he uses the restroom he will pass my room and its a clear shot.
Shame were not going to be there till march.
Flick is a trained broadcaster, was in radio for 12 years and he has a gorgeous voice. I'm not just saying this cos he's my H either. He always scored well in the radio survey's.
barbiecat, your ideas are brilliant. I was ROLOL. Love the cell phone msg.
Also liked the cruise brochures, make sure they are the ones that run "single cruises", that will make him pause.
Another idea, you can do it through the IM's. Next weekend is the dreaded Valentines Day, pass a message to H "saying thank you for the beautiful flowers but are you sure they are for me or were they meant for DD17". When he responds to either D17 or IM, just say -- never mind I was mistaken...then let H wonder who sent flowers to his wife.
T2L, first you mentioned you were worried about GPS being on your cell. Check your "blue tooth" and see if it was activated without you using it. That is one way he could have set it up to track you.
just wondering... is he still refusing to communicate through the IMs?
Yes. And Yes he has the hero complex I think and needs much AD so he likes doing things around the house for me...well at least now he does before I was a nag for asking.
Okay DD17 told her dad that mom snapped at us(which I have because if water goes down drain i have to clean it up) at us because we keep putting water in the sink. Well guess what he responded to her within 5 minutes. DD17 said I told dad that the sink was broke and he wants to know if he should come fix it and I told her to say IDK I'll ask her I think she can get it done on warranty but its more expensive, Im not sure I think its hard for her to see you I will ask her.
So what now? Send something through IM's about the sink??? But I need a day or so to get the tickets and pictures up too.
Let's see, there are lots of reasonable cruises going from near you to the Mexican Riviera. Also check out Club Med brochures.
A little dreaming won't hurt you either.
You could have some "Trash the Dress" photos done and leave them laying around.
Actually, the logic behind it makes sense. Most brides who wear their wedding dress never plan on wearing it or another one again. "Trashing the dress" is the latest thing. Boy, wouldn't WH wonder what was up with THAT?
Here's a link about it if you don't know what I'm talking about:
Trash the Dress
Flick is a trained broadcaster, was in radio for 12 years and he has a gorgeous voice. I'm not just saying this cos he's my H either. He always scored well in the radio survey's.
ooooooooooohhhhhhhhh.......
Is there *any* way possible to put his voice on the phone? Cus, wow... just think, he knows there are visitors coming from NZ... then to hear a sexy male voice IN A KIWI ACCENT...
WHY FAKE IT to try and game play, impress and fool your husband that you are now "independent" or "wanted".
Why not become truly independent and start developing a LIFE for yourself and the kids apart from him!
Dont talk about him, dont think about him, dont do anything about him.
Just get your own life going so that you are happy.
YOU DESERVE A GOOD LIFE!!!
WHY FAKE IT to try and game play, impress and fool your husband that you are now "independent" or "wanted".
Why not become truly independent and start developing a LIFE for yourself and the kids apart from him!
Dont talk about him, dont think about him, dont do anything about him.
Just get your own life going so that you are happy.
YOU DESERVE A GOOD LIFE!!!
Took the words right outta my fingers, Stella.
Charlotte
ETA: You gotta watch stuff like that because then you're getting into..."Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive..."
Yer prolly right but...
THIS is soooooo much FUN!!!!!!!!!!! *heeheehee*
well we can ring the phone and leave a message, but nothing suggestive tho.
Is there a way he could ring the machine and record something? Although as Flick has just pointed out that woudnt sound as good.
His suggestion in that he record something to the computer, e-mail it to T2L and she put the microphone of the answering machine next to the computer speaker and record the playback.
You could have some "Trash the Dress" photos done and leave them laying around.
Actually, the logic behind it makes sense. Most brides who wear their wedding dress never plan on wearing it or another one again. "Trashing the dress" is the latest thing. Boy, wouldn't WH wonder what was up with THAT?
Here's a link about it if you don't know what I'm talking about:
Trash the DressI love my gown.
My children love my gown...and I've plans for my grandbabies christening outfits to be made of the brocade.
I could never...
Not even if we split up...
Never ever...
T2L, just go online to clubmed.com or sandals.com and print out some of their material at home.
T2L, just go online to clubmed.com or sandals.com and print out some of their material at home.
Of COURSE! *smacks forehead*
In this day and age you can get whatever info you need, online. You could even go to travelocity.com or something, and get a quote for a trip... for 2 adults, with or without 2 kids... you can get all the way to the part where you type in your credit card, and then print that out. Don't worry, as long as you don't type in your credit card you won't be charged, so you can make all the selections you want, and even click "check out now" to get the final itinerary to print out.
Or anything else you want - does Victoria's Secret have an online store? You could get all the way to check-out, and print out the receipt.
ETA: fold, bend and mutilate these print-outs, so as not to look like you jsut printed them out for his viewing.
Yer prolly right but...
THIS is soooooo much FUN!!!!!!!!!!! *heeheehee*
Okay, I'll bite.
How about hiring a beefy lawn boy?
Then you have an actual physical presence of beefsteak without the emotional attachment.
Just make sure to hire one who smiles all of the time while he looks around with lively eyes, taking in all of the "scenery."
Charlotte
Well not so attached to my wedding dress and DD17 would NEVER wear it LOL. Its so not 2000's, she would call it cruel and unusual punishment!
and I've plans for my grandbabies christening outfits to be made of the brocade
Awww... what a great idea!
WHY FAKE IT to try and game play, impress and fool your husband that you are now "independent" or "wanted".
Why not become truly independent and start developing a LIFE for yourself and the kids apart from him!
Dont talk about him, dont think about him, dont do anything about him.
Just get your own life going so that you are happy.
YOU DESERVE A GOOD LIFE!!!
Hello Stella my luv!
I do understand what you are saying and appreciate the encouragement.
But ya ever notice in human nature how we never are really thankful or realize what God has given them until they lose it? It's like suddenly when its too late we go hey wait.
Plus understand this. This a war and battle to me. I am fighting a war for my marriage and if you think that any army just walked out and said Hi I'm your enemy and I am going to shoot you now okay? Is going to happen, its just not. There are tactics, strategies and plans. They are covert, precision and intended probably sometimes to lure in and slay the enemy. I can surrender at anytime but in any battle and time and strategy are crucial. I can "get a life" any old time. I have one taking care and being here for my kids but the getting a life stuff won't disappear if I focus on this for a bit.
Does that makes sense?
Neither of my girls will wear my wedding dress. DD16 is about 8 sizes too big, and DD12 is about 4 sizes too big. Both also tower over me so it will be too short.
We already have a family heirloom christening gown.
If they had trash the dress photo's when I got married I might have done it.
I vote for the beefy lawn boy with a smile and dimples........
I vote for the beefy lawn boy with a smile and dimples........
Okay y'all I live in Cali and uh landscapers usually are hot and beefy here...they usually are poor and dirty. Truly I haven't seen a hot one yet! LMAO
While it's good to get a life and leave evidence of that life, be very careful not to cross over into dishonesty and deceit. When WH comes back you need to be able to explain everything plausibly.
The flowers? I got those to cheer myself up, the idea of Valentine's day was getting me really down.
The cruise thing you've already mentioned to him, so that's no big deal.
The Victoria's Secret gift card... I'm not so sure about that. It's a hilarious idea but it reeks of out and out manipulation. New lingerie hanging out to dry is great.
LOVE the idea of getting Flick to do your answering machine message!
Have you repainted your room already? That will send a big message too, that you're moving ahead with your life.
The flowers? I got those to cheer myself up, the idea of Valentine's day was getting me really down.
Or, do you have any friends who could send them, with a card?
It could even be a girlfriend preferably with a guy's name, if WH doesn't know them... like "Sam" ?
Anyone here wanna do it? Maybe we could all send all the hurting BS's flowers for Valentine's Day.
The flowers? I got those to cheer myself up, the idea of Valentine's day was getting me really down.
Or, do you have any friends who could send them, with a card?
It could even be a girlfriend preferably with a guy's name, if WH doesn't know them... like "Sam" ?
Anyone here wanna do it? Maybe we could all send all the hurting BS's flowers for Valentine's Day.
Or shorten our real names...
Guess I could send some from "Prince".
Victoria Secrets has a HUGE marketing for Valentines day promotion. It is probably the biggest push of the year.
They sell more to men than women at this time of year. And I bet the #1 seller is GIFT CARDS for your VALENTINE.
The trick is to get T2L to look like she does not want him to directly find this information out.
Invite me over for the first time in 3 months and have flowers, sexy underware and tickets sitting out? Yeah, sure.
...Oh please, obvious. Now have OLDER flowers in the trash, (hiding under "simple cover" newspsper) that will get him.
I think the flowers, tickets and undies is waaaay too much overkill. you want him to think he stumbled onto information.
If you go t his route, only pick one.
Re: new relationships don't take cruises with kids. Or brand new girlfriends, fer that matter.
Be sure not to cross over into dishonesty and deceit? T2L is fighting (like a war) for her marriage. I also would not worry at all about explaining yourself AT ALL to him for any action you choose.
Its all manipulation. No matter at what level you participate.
That is not nes. a bad thing.
If I was going to do this,...I'd sure the heck do it right.
Or you could just draw that funny symbol!
This would take more than a day's notice but:
On one of the evenings when WH comes to visit the kids, T2L goes out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, alone... but brings home leftovers? Preferably with the restaurant's name on it... but they are usually plain while bags... so maybe with some souvenir matches or something? - I dunno, seems a little difficult.
I agree not to do very much all of a sudden. Just do a bit here and there over the next couple of weeks..............
While it's good to get a life and leave evidence of that life, be very careful not to cross over into dishonesty and deceit. When WH comes back you need to be able to explain everything plausibly.
The flowers? I got those to cheer myself up, the idea of Valentine's day was getting me really down.
The cruise thing you've already mentioned to him, so that's no big deal.
The Victoria's Secret gift card... I'm not so sure about that. It's a hilarious idea but it reeks of out and out manipulation. New lingerie hanging out to dry is great.
LOVE the idea of getting Flick to do your answering machine message!
Have you repainted your room already? That will send a big message too, that you're moving ahead with your life.
Yeah I do understand not wanting to be deceitful, that's why I thought I would leave no message on the extra phone. It doesn't say guy or girl. Just says leave a message in a computer generated voice usually. This way I wouldn't have to explain a guys voice.
As far as victorias(Fredericks too) H knows I love matching undies and bras. He knew I wanted more during Plan A, so its a fifty fifty if it would throw him. He might wonder why I might want more since he's not around. But these are places I have shopped. Can't hurt to just go buy a few undies myself and he can wonder.
I do love flowers and did buy them for myself and one time DD17 bought some for me during PA and H has asked where they came from and she said I bought them for momma. Problem is what do I say if he asks where they came from? I guess If I put them out B4 the kids are around he won't know and the kids can say IDK.
I think I can do these things fairly honestly and leave his mind to wonder for the most part.
Well, I left as planned at 7:45 told DS10 I am having coffee with a friend. H called to talk to DS10 at 8:15, and of course guess what he asks? Yup so where's your mom? Except this time DS10 says IDK she's not here. He asks where I am at and DS10 says IDK.
I ask son when I come home did you get to talk with your dad tonight and he says yup. I ask if he had a nice talk and I say did dad ask where I was again?
DS10 says yes I told him IDK, I ask him well how come you didn't tell dad I went to coffee with a friend? He says well you always say if dad asks to say IDK. I had to tell the kids to answer everything with IDK when PB started because of the madness H was creating. Poor thing thought he still needed to answer everything with that. I say DS10 its okay if I let you know where I am going to say, he says ohhhh okay.
So today I get a lovely call on my cell phone all the way from New Zealand!!! Whooo hooooo! H will now see this on the phone bill. Hilarious! Lildoggie called for a 2 minutes laugh session and quickly hung up!
I think its quite funny. H watches me, he watches my bank account every single day to see what I spend. I guess he does this since he still provides somewhat financially. It definitely has been tighter since he is trying to sustain to residences. He told DD17 that he watches the bank account everyday(mind you he has his own and transfers an amount to mine) and now I think he is watching every cell phone call I make because he has made comments about people in Texas and I have talked to to people in Texas, Dealan and Hope3343. So this tells me he is watching. Since I found this out last month I started having everyone call me on house phone, the bill comes to me and he will not know who i am talking to.
So tomorrow I plan on being gone again....and got some other things in the works.
T2L, I am laughing your son said IDK. For once you wanted him to say and of course he followed your original instructions.
I need to start using my cell to call your cell. It will really start blowing his mind to start seeing calls coming in from CT also. lol dazed and confused.
T2L, I am laughing your son said IDK. For once you wanted him to say and of course he followed your original instructions.
I need to start using my cell to call your cell. It will really start blowing his mind to start seeing calls coming in from CT also. lol dazed and confused.
OMG yeah call me from the CT #, that's what lildoggie said too. She said we should have people from all over call your cell. LOL.
I think its funny! Do y'all remember during Christmas when I had all my church friends over for that party and he found out and had a fit because i told(exposed) everyone, mostly close friends, but I mean come on its not like they wouldn't notice he wasn't around LOL.
Well he was furious he didn't get invited, and he told DD17 well your mom lives and breathes because of me and DD17 says dad you sound nuts and didn't talk to him for the rest of the day. Soooo I think the calls from other places is great! He will wonder why lil old T2L has so many friends he doesn't know, especially that she discovered that there is air and life outside of Mr. T2L, LOLOLOLOLOL. So yeah call me from the CT # on my cell phone!!!
I love that CarolH Thread Melody sent, it's creative, and honest and it worked really well and the best part was the changes her H had. Just loved it, everyone should go read it!!!
I think its quite funny. H watches me, he watches my bank account every single day to see what I spend.
You wanna mess with HIS control issues a bit and cause him to wonder what you're up to even more?
Get a credit card in your name only. Then use it to pay for everything. All he'll see is this one payment to a credit card he knows nothing about. I think Mr. T2L will go NUTS!!
Even as a SAHM, there are cards you can get.
Or you could open up an individual checking account and transfer money from the joint account into it.
I did both of these things when tst left. I wanted a clear message sent that he doesn't get to check up on me, monitor me, etc. if he doesn't want to be my husband.
I think it would be a great wake up call for Mr. T2L that he doesn't get to keep "peeking" in on YOUR life since he doesn't want to be a part of it.
Yowza! I did not even think of banking. How does this type of info fit into a plan b?
Funny about DS and coffee break.
I agree. Start setting up some independent life things, show you CAN and MAY live apart from him, because this:
he told DD17 well your mom lives and breathes because of me
makes me wanna punch something!
GRRRRRR!
For that comment alone, I'd pay to have some guy come and pick you up from the house and take you out. On the same night H is meeting the kids.
For that comment alone, I'd pay to have some guy come and pick you up from the house and take you out. On the same night H is meeting the kids.
I still opt for the underwear model....
I still opt for the underwear model....
Once again, visual image... in his undies. It's snowing here, sure hope it's warm there, for the hunk's sake.
ETA: Weren't you taking salsa lessons at one point? I know Charlotte is into dancing, belly dancing I think, but I thought you'd started some lessons too. You still doing that? If you weren't, you should. Great excuse to get dolled up and get outa the house!
I still opt for the underwear model....
Once again, visual image... in his undies. It's snowing here, sure hope it's warm there, for the hunk's sake.
ETA: Weren't you taking salsa lessons at one point? I know Charlotte is into dancing, belly dancing I think, but I thought you'd started some lessons too. You still doing that? If you weren't, you should. Great excuse to get dolled up and get outa the house!
Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode:
"DOESN'T SHE KNOW ABOUT SHRINKAGE?????"
I still opt for the underwear model....
Once again, visual image... in his undies. It's snowing here, sure hope it's warm there, for the hunk's sake.
ETA: Weren't you taking salsa lessons at one point? I know Charlotte is into dancing, belly dancing I think, but I thought you'd started some lessons too. You still doing that? If you weren't, you should. Great excuse to get dolled up and get outa the house!
Reminds me of that Seinfeld episode:
"DOESN'T SHE KNOW ABOUT SHRINKAGE?????"
Well it is slightly warmer in Texas as long as he doesn't go swimming..
I think its quite funny. H watches me, he watches my bank account every single day to see what I spend.
You wanna mess with HIS control issues a bit and cause him to wonder what you're up to even more?
Get a credit card in your name only. Then use it to pay for everything. All he'll see is this one payment to a credit card he knows nothing about. I think Mr. T2L will go NUTS!!
Even as a SAHM, there are cards you can get.
Or you could open up an individual checking account and transfer money from the joint account into it.
I did both of these things when tst left. I wanted a clear message sent that he doesn't get to check up on me, monitor me, etc. if he doesn't want to be my husband.
I think it would be a great wake up call for Mr. T2L that he doesn't get to keep "peeking" in on YOUR life since he doesn't want to be a part of it.
Yeah isn't that hilarious and he says I am being controlling? LOL Ya know he never checked on me like this Pre-A or even ever looked at the check book. I used to try to get him to come look at the budgting but he never wanted to now is nutso!
I did start a checking account but.....here is the reason i have not used it to pay for everything and transfer it. Yes I am probably being week minded and wimpy in this. As of now, H has been putting money in our account and I have not had to file for LSA(which is good because I don't have the money to being an SAHM for our entire marriage).
I know if I do that he will start messing with the money and I don't want to deal with that. So far I have been able to keep the kids lives the same as far as living in their home etc etc. When I consulted with an attorney he said plan on getting a job and losing your house. Right now H says he gives us about 90% of his income and sadly I believe him. That was one of his brags during PA when I would hint around if he was going to piss off OW by giving us most of his money and he would say, "I can do what I want, no one can tell me what to do"(of course).
So this is why I have not used my won checking...fear really and not wanting to have to move my kids etc. As long as he see's the money and what we do he doesn't mess with us.
So that's why I am trying to use the cell phone thing because we have lots of minutes so I can get call from everywhere, and whats he gonna say, stop talking to everyone???
Even he would know he would sound like an [censored] or he would sound like he cares and he does want to sound like he cares.
Ya know when he was here that night and I repeated the PBL to his face, he had nothing to say can you believe that. He just looked at me. But guess what, when H and my son started to play pool and i left, i had to pass them in the garage to get into my truck because the garage door was open. Well just for a second I caught him. He looked me over. It was very slight be he did and I caught it. It caught me off guard, I wasn't sure ig I should have gotten self conscious or glad, so I just popped in the truck and left. So I think the run in with fixing the sink may be a good thing.
Thoughts I've been given are to have him fix the sink, be gone when he gets there, and arrive back several hours later looking rockin hot and walk him to door when I get home thank him for fixing the sink. I thought about walking in the door being on the cell phone and saying ok I will have to call you back later.
DD17 and I filled 4 huge frames with new pictures of all our day trips and things since last May. We had fun doing them and they look great. They are hanging up in the entry way and in the kitchen. That is going to drive H crazy. He's NOT in a single one and these are pretty large collage frames, abt 2 feet wide by 3 feet long.
I remember pre-SAA I allowed him to come over for the 4th of July. He noticed I had taken down all his pictures in the house. It made him really mad. He commented on it to our mutual church friends saying,"what the h3ll, they took down all my pictures, are they trying to forget me or something?". Yeah I don't get it??!?! You don't want to be apart of this family but you want your wife to stare at your pictures....LMAO-NOT! I took them down over the whole house except the kids rooms, they can have as many as they like.
Travel brochures in kitchen, pictures hanging everywhere, and sink soon to be fixed, and calls coming from different areas....
I like the idea of calls coming to my cell and driving Mr. T2L's control issue nuts so....for more call purposes, I would let anyone of the VETS or regular trusted posters call me on my cell. If you wanna call my cell phone and talk for 5 minutes let me know!!
Right now I have like no calls coming in since I took the entire month of January off from church I actually get very few calls.
So it looks like my life is kinda boring. Kids mostly call me, but that's good!
Ya know people like Neak, Pep, Delean, Hope, Turtle, Barbie, SMB, Believer, DancingMachine, Queenie, Lildoggie, PrincessMeggy, Catperson, Jayne, Kayla, Johnstwin, SB etc, forgive me in advance I KNOW I am totally forgetting more names but you get the idea. Sorry If I forgot you goin off the top of my head. MB regular trusted posters and VETS. I know the ones who are not and I know the ones who I will not allow as they have already tried emailing me.
I know who the regular and old timers are, I read other threads so don't bother asking if that's not one of you.
If you want to do that, send me an email at the email address in my signature.
Hey T2L, I'll call ya. I'll even call you from work (a law firm)! Wouldn't that be a hoot, he'd really be scratching his head on that one. I'll call you from my cell too which only has the default recording when you call it back. Email me your number please.
I just emailed you my numbers too.
Uh-oh! I just thought of something because this is something I used to do my WH when he was wayward.
Do you have a passcode on your cellphone to get your VMs? My WH did too but I figured out what it was and listened to his VMs all the time. I deleted the ones I didn't want him to hear.
ETA: I even forwarded his calls to MY cellphone.
(That drove him nuts... or nuttier)
Anyway, just make sure that this isn't happening to you!!!
Uh-oh! I just thought of something because this is something I used to do my WH when he was wayward.
Do you have a passcode on your cellphone to get your VMs? My WH did too but I figured out what it was and listened to his VMs all the time. I deleted the ones I didn't want him to hear.
ETA: I even forwarded his calls to MY cellphone.
(That drove him nuts... or nuttier)
Anyway, just make sure that this isn't happening to you!!!
Well I don't think he's that quick. But I will always try to answer the calls to the MB'ers who I have given the number to.
Oh yeah and i thought we should space our 5 minutes calls out every 3-4 days. Now this billing will cut off I think on the 15th. So I need some random calls every 3-5 days till the 15th and then we can space them out to weekly or so after that. I just want to see his reaction for this billing. They don't have to be long and most companies have night free and weekends, so hopefully it shouldn't cost ya nuttin.
The thing I like about the cell calls are, really its innocent and harmless as I LOVE talking with you guys and talk to y'all daily already! I consider you my friends. Your not a guy I'm interested in so It shows that I am meeting new people and not crying on my bed dying because of him. And he has no control over it like he does the money. Yipeee!
You do know that this will drive him crazzzzzy! He's apt to start blowiong up someones computer trying to find what chat room you are in!!! You will KNOW it did the job when MB'ers start getting call from him, either hang ups or " how do you know my WIFE" This is great. Keep up the good work! GF
So Lildoggie is making her way to the US in March, she will stopping in at my house I am sooooo excited and Hope3343 is planning to come it the week before I think. Lildoggie and I were thinking we should have an MB BBQ while she is here from NZ!!! I think its the week of March 11th.
yeahhh funniest thing.. i was talkin to lildoggie last night on the phone.. and she told me to say a sentence so she could hear my accent...
so i was like ok i
"i want to go to the park tomorrow"
and she said whatt??? beg your pardon.. lol she couldnt understand me..
i think thats so funny how we think other people have accents when we probably have one too.. lol
idk
Okay y'all its on. H makes his call to DS10 tonight. He says so where is your mom and DS10 says IDK in her room i guess and H says is she alone??? LMAO LMAO LMAO...Is she alone?? No she's in there with the underwear model and gardener LOL Now that is classic. He told DS10 he will come to visit tomorrow so time for 2nd phase! H needs to see his wife in a new light. He needs to see her possibly moving on as he only see's me as very loyal to him and only waiting for him.
So few days ago he asked DD17 if he needed to come fix the sink. Haven't answered him on purpose. Figured since he is actually going to visit his kids I would use this wisely.
DD17 told him mom said you can come fix the sink tomorrow while she is not home so she does not have to see you. He said ok I will call when I'm on my way. I will be gone when he gets here and return later that evening looking smoking HOT and walk him to the door. Not sure exactly how to walk him to the door but gonna figure it out. I guess something like well thanks for fixing the sink.(Do I say thanks or is that meeting an emotional need?? But if I don't is that an LB?) If anyone else has a creative non LB way to walk someone to the door to insinuate time for you to go without saying it send it on down and quick.
Ok off to pick out slammin outfit!
Oh yeah phone calls that came in today...1 from Texas and 1 from CT
More coming from the State of Washington(AC-above California
) and I thin k a state in the upper eastern US.
to y'all
I guess something like well thanks for fixing the sink.(Do I say thanks or is that meeting an emotional need?? But if I don't is that an LB?) If anyone else has a creative non LB way to walk someone to the door to insinuate time for you to go without saying it send it on down and quick.
A big part of changing HIS perception is he sees you are no longer miserable. You need to be happy & excited at the same time nonchalant about seeing him.
You smile inwardly - like you're thinking some really juicy private thoughts.
About what time do you think this might happen? If I'm available - you can call or text me just a minute before you arrive back home. Then, about 10 minutes after that, I will call you - keep your cell IN YOUR HAND , like you are expecting an important call. When the call comes, you look down at your phone, you recognize the number and you beam a smile and your eyes twinkle - you say "Oh, please excuse me, I need to take this one." --- Then rush outside the front of the house to talk (to me).
Once outside (stay out of ear shot but within the line of sight from the front windows) you & I have a roaring laugh. Use body language while talking to your friend... such as
touch your hair
put your other hand on your hip
touch your lips
nod your head
laugh
smile
We won't talk more than a minute. When you hang up you twirl a little bit because talking to me is just too fun!
Then - compose yourself, re enter the house and say your polite "thank you so much you came to my rescue. Let me walk you to your car."
Then H has a choice.
If he questions you about the call - you keep it light and give non answers.
"I know, huh."
"Oh, JUST a friend."
"Not to worry."
If he becomes anxious (which is GREAT, the response we're trying to get) YOU say
>>>look at your watch or the clock<<< "OK. Let yourself out. I'm going to my room." (be sure you say MY ROOM but don't put any vocal emphasis on "my" )
Remember, you are doing innocent things that look fishy (to waywards because they are doing fishy things trying to appear innocent) so do not make this too dramatic when face to face - we do not want him angry - just anxious.
Can you pull this off?
Does your bedroom door have a lock? Lock it once you are there. Then STAY there - you and your precious phone.
Thanking him for his domestic support abolutely is meeting an EN, but it must be done anyway.
Since he is supposed to be gone before you get home, you can be just a tiny fraction surprised to see him, but not upset, just all....whatever dude BTW thanks.... (Don't actually SAY whatever dude, lol.)
And because he is supposed to be gone before you get home, this is not really you breaking PB, it's him trying to break it for you, and you turning it to your advantage. You've gotta get your sink fixed, you can't afford to pay someone to fix it, and we have a pretty good idea how your plumber is going to react.
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NORMALLY NOT PLAN B ACTIVITY. IT SHOULD NOT BE HANDED OUT AS STANDARD ADVICE IN EVERY CASE.
IT BEARS REPEATING THAT T2L HAS ALREADY UPHELD HER PB BOUNDARIES BY PASSING ON THE INFORMATION THAT WH IS TO FIX THE SINK WHILE SHE IS GONE. HE IS NOT GOING TO RESPECT THAT, BUT THAT ISN'T HER PROBLEM.
this is very much "The Art Of War"
corn-fuzz the enemy
this is very much "The Art Of War"
corn-fuzz the enemy
Yes I have upheld the PB boundaries. He was told that he can come fix the sink while I am away as it is to difficult to see him(repeater of PBL). And I know a PB can be done this way because there are many others in PB with small children who "must" see their WS's while passing off children. The children are passed off with no break in the boundaries. My H knows he cannot come home until there is no contact. Said in in PB and have said 2 times(the b-day phone call and the mishap of DS10's invitation to play pool in garage). PB was repeated both times.
Anyways I have always wanted to read The Art of War. I heard its one book that everyone should actually own.
Well, okay I think I can do this. Outfit ready-check, going to a friends house to hang out -check, pictures of ONLY kids and I hung up all over the walls-check, travel brochures on table and some minor jottings on them-check. Will be out for several hours, come back and walk in looking great, smelling great and cheerful and confident, will text PEP when I pull up in driveway for my phone call-check, will say be right back need to take this call(laugh, hands on hips, play with hair and hang up-check, will come back in and say ok well I'm going to my room let your self out when your done-check, and go celebrate in my room with some music and a hot bath!
Ok Pep I'm thinking call me about 3-5 minutes after I walk in because I really do not want to make small talk(he will) I really just want to walk in greet the kids, look at the sink, have my phone ring, talk for the few and come back in say let yourself out and go to my room. I want to keep it as much of a PB as possible so I don't want to stand around talking waiting for the phone call if that makes sense. So I will text you the second I get out of the car, if you can call 5 mins after that.
I will text all 3 of you IM's as soon as I leave the house to let you know we are a go!
I LOVE the way everyone is helping you strategize. I know it's not quite MB policy, but I think us BSs need to "mix it up" once in a while and not be so predictable. Maybe that's the difference between us and the OP that gives us the disadvantage at times.
BSs here on the forum, trying to save their Ms, are good people who follow the rules, thinking of their family first, steady, dependable, etc. OP is a rebel and rule breaker, spontaneous, thinking only of the "now" and getting what they want at any cost.
I LOVE the way everyone is helping you strategize. I know it's not quite MB policy, but I think us BSs need to "mix it up" once in a while and not be so predictable. Maybe that's the difference between us and the OP that gives us the disadvantage at times.
BSs here on the forum, trying to save their Ms, are good people who follow the rules, thinking of their family first, steady, dependable, etc. OP is a rebel and rule breaker, spontaneous, thinking only of the "now" and getting what they want at any cost.
Hey there HH,
Well I do love the MB's principles and program and still feel like I am still abiding in the program.
What needs to change in H's mind is the way he views ME. I am not sure everyone has this problem but my personality is intensely loyal and I fight to the death over keep relationships, friendships included. My H's(since he is my 8th grade BF) knows this about me, he can bet my loyalty on a lottery ticket that's how well he knows this. He literally knows I will be loyal to him almost forever and that I would almost wait until he's done having his fun. Well this needs to change.
He told DD17 that I live and breathe because of him. He needs to see that there is air and life outside of Mr. T2L and that I can breath it and live it too and that maybe there is a possibility that T2L could decide she no longer wants to wait around and that possibly he may have to face a life without me. Unless he sees me this way, I truly think we will out wait one another ending in a stalemate. I have to stay in the PB because he must learn to respect me and learn that we are equals and that this is a partnership. He has never learned that view of me because to him its just T2L, my 8th grade girlfriend. He never learned respect for me as a woman.
I am keeping this all pretty clean. I have had calls from a few of you and you are my friends so when I am question if I am questioned I am not lying. I told DS10 today that I am going to lunch with a friend. I am going to a girlfriends house, her H and 4 children will be there. She is from my church and she wants to make it a fun day and we will be eating lunch at some point LOL so no lie there. When Pep calls it will be a friend and because we know what we are doing we will be laughing hysterically because it is funny. This can look innocent or not. But it's all clean. Can't get the pay per minute phone til next week but its a done deal.
Gosh -- I need to do the same thing. We've been together since age 15 and he knows that I'm loyal, faithful, willing to fix things, etc. And he has lost respect for me evident by his willingness to end our M and leave his kids for someone else.
I, too, need to move on -- or at least look like I am. And now the D is starting, I need to get going on it fast.
Tomorrow I'm going to a big Superbowl party. I missed it last year because on Superbowl Sunday last year, WH moved out for a month to start a new life with OW. I was a wreck that day.
This year I will be at the party with head held high, chest out...wearing my big girl panties!!! Hummm...maybe I need to go shopping today for a killer outfit.
Gosh -- I need to do the same thing. We've been together since age 15 and he knows that I'm loyal, faithful, willing to fix things, etc. And he has lost respect for me evident by his willingness to end our M and leave his kids for someone else.
I, too, need to move on -- or at least look like I am. And now the D is starting, I need to get going on it fast.
Tomorrow I'm going to a big Superbowl party. I missed it last year because on Superbowl Sunday last year, WH moved out for a month to start a new life with OW. I was a wreck that day.
This year I will be at the party with head held high, chest out...wearing my big girl panties!!! Hummm...maybe I need to go shopping today for a killer outfit.
Good for you! Go to that party and yeah go grab a new top or something. Hang up new pictures of the new you and take some local day trips with you and kids and take lots of pictures and frame them up.
I read Divorce Remedy before i found MB and what I took from that book, was 2 principles. GAL and 180.. GAL is Getting a Life, so I signed up for salsa lessons. I have neglected them a bit during holidays due to finances but I am going to start back hopefully in February. So go find something really unexpected and fun that you have always wanted to try, be creative. Dance is wonderful for confidence and to help cheer you. Salsa may seem kinda risky but its not. Its a party of the ballroom family and its really an art. I have gone dancing a few times and its very clean, you don't get hit on too much because its ALL about the dancing.
And then I did 180's in areas where H may have complained. For me the 180 was in SF department. I never denied SF to H but I never initiated so during PA I learned a lap dance and preformed it for him, and he loved it and it was such an area of growth for me. Because of my horrid childhood, a victim of molestation, I had an inappropriate view in this area. I did not have the freedom that I should have had. I never denied my H SF because I knew, but def things could have been better.
So anyways, go GAL and 180. Take a dance class, join a gym something just for you. It's great for WS's to see you doing things totally unexpected and still living. IT drove my H crazy that I took salsa lessons. HE would occasionally mock it to the kdis and say its for gay people. He admitted to DD17 2 weeks ago at there lunch date that he never went dancing, he lied, he did it to make me jealous! JERK! LOL Funny thing is I didn't lie, i really took lessons and FORCED FORCED FORCED myself to go to a place and try out my new skills. It was scary for me, I was little insecure, and worried about dancing with another man as I never had. But it again was growth for me. It was harmless and I was proud of myself. I can't say I was totally having the best time of my life because I was still hurting over my H(still am) but sometimes you have to do it while you hurt.
Sorry for if that was too much TMI, most people who have been following from the start know that my H cheated on the OW 3-4 times a week during PA and all the things I did.
So tell me what are you going to look into next week for you?
Sorry rambling. K off to the shower gotta get outta here in a bit Im sure he'll be here soon and I need to be gone. Ihave my cell y'all who ever wants to call and might check forum at friends house.
yeahhh funniest thing.. i was talkin to lildoggie last night on the phone.. and she told me to say a sentence so she could hear my accent...
so i was like ok i
"i want to go to the park tomorrow"
and she said whatt??? beg your pardon.. lol she couldnt understand me..
i think thats so funny how we think other people have accents when we probably have one too.. lol
idk
Thats because you talk funny dear
Actually I have to confess, I am hearing impaired. Not deaf, I just don't process sounds the same way as most people and my brain has a tendancy to not let me hear the full range of tones.
Or as my audiologist says.."I am not deaf, I am just ignorant"
will text PEP when I pull up in driveway for my phone call-check, will say be right back need to take this call(laugh, hands on hips, play with hair and hang up-check, will come back in and say ok well I'm going to my room let your self out when your done-check, and go celebrate in my room with some music and a hot bath!
Ok Pep I'm thinking call me about 3-5 minutes after I walk in because I really do not want to make small talk(he will) I really just want to walk in greet the kids, look at the sink, have my phone ring, talk for the few and come back in say let yourself out and go to my room. I want to keep it as much of a PB as possible so I don't want to stand around talking waiting for the phone call if that makes sense. So I will text you the second I get out of the car, if you can call 5 mins after that.
I will text all 3 of you IM's as soon as I leave the house to let you know we are a go!
OK - ready!
If you would please be so kind - post to trying2live about your MB Plan B coaching with Steve.
I've been trying to remember exactly what Steve told you about opening the door every now & then to give the wayward a light back home ---- something , dang, I can't remember exactly.
In T2L's case, her WH was 100% convinced T2L would wait indefinitely for him to return. We're working to lower his level of certainty to 75% or lower.
This is a delicate balance - creating an opportunity for WH to return while at the same time infusing anxiety in the WH brain >>> realizing BW will not wait forever.
As I recall, your H became anxious when you sold the house.
Thanks.
I haven't been keeping up with your story T2L..but I will share what happened with US..hope it helps...
My H thought I would be sitting there in our "dream house" waiting for him while he was out playing with the OW..wanted to see if it would/could work out with HER..said stuff to me like.."You've got to let me try this"..wanting to keep his hooks in me with my permission...YUCK...
I didn't warn him but, as soon as we signed the LSA, I knew I was not planning to stay in THAT HOUSE...YUCK..so I put it up FOR SALE..took forever and all kinds of tricks to try to get him to sign to allow me to put the house up for sale..and to get around him seeing me during this time since I was in PLAN B..
Finally got the house up for sale and it sold on the FIRST DAY...He did a DRIVEBY and saw the SOLD sign and called me almost immediately..caught me by playing some trick with the phone, calling over and over with UNKNOWN CALLER so that I would answer...it was the first indication that he wanted to reconcile after 3 months of PLAN B..He said: "What about US ?". I said: "There is NO US"..CLICK and immediately got an appt. with Steve the NEXT DAY.
Steve said to provide a ROAD MAP home or something like that BUT he wanted my communications with my H to be BRIEF. I was supposed to wait for HIS CALL and when he called I was supposed to repeat over and over.."GET RID OF THE OW and then we can TALK"..I had used the analogy with my H "following the breadcrumbs home" sometime along the way..maybe in the PLAN B LETTER and my H GOT THAT...so I kept on with that analogy in my BRIEF CONVERSATIONS with him.."you know the way HOME, GET RID OF THE OW"...
My H THEN started intervening in the house that I was attempting to buy on my own..got in touch with my realtor and she let him see the houses..he didn't like any of them...maybe too much information for you now..but he ended up finding a house that WE BOTH could live in...BABY STEPS..then gave me more money for the downpayment..another step...until finally HE was moving in, TOO on a certain date with the NC LETTER in hand...He had never moved out..I moved his clothes to the NEW HOUSE with me..but he was still with her when I moved...
We've been living HERE for 5 years...
Five months after d-day, my husband admitted he had signed up to do a New Years Eve duty for a charity phone-line (verifiable - I called the charity number to hear his voice, and then hung up). Both our children would be out at parties, so I'd be on my own at home.
I immediately went out and bought myself a single ticket to a party at a local pub. The theme was School Days, so I bought a tight shirt and a little tie. I looked hot, though I say it myself.
Going to the venue on my own was not easy, but I did it. H was stunned, because it was so out of character. It was well worth moving out of my comfort zone for my own self-esteem and showing us both what I was capable of.
It's times like this that you can step out of the box you've always been in.
TA
I'll let T2L tell what happened -
PEP!!!!
The suspense will kill me!!!
T2L, I can't wait to hear from you, sista!
PEP!!!!
The suspense will kill me!!!
T2L, I can't wait to hear from you, sista!
Someone call 911 - SMB is gonna implode :MrEEk:
If T2L is the honey - guess who the bear is?
I'm not in a patient mood tonight, T2L. You better get here soon.
I'm not in a patient mood tonight, T2L. You better get here soon.
Okay LOL, here's how it went!!! Get ready to LOL!
So HE wasn't supposed to get here until 4 he called early as I thought and asked if he could come at 2:30. I told DS10 that's fine I have a lunch to go to. I already expected this so I had changed packed truck with my dress and heels.
So I left as he was on his way here. So i stay at my girl friends for about 2 1/2 hours giving her little girls mani and pedi's. I got dressed in the great dress and gold jacket and white heels. I pull up and text Pep Im home.
I walk in and he's has already fixed the sink and went to work on the pool. I walk out to my son and them to see what they are doing, also so he can get a lovely Birdseye view of his lovely smoking HOT wife. He peeks around the wall from the pool equipment and he literally flinches and his eyes get big as if he is totally not expecting me to look that way.
HE is on his knees working and He says wow you look really nice, that's a nice dress and I smile and say thanks, how are you. He' says good. He then says he fixed the sink and has cleaned out my jacuzzi and I can probably use it tonight if I want to. I respond ah no thanks, but thanks for fixing it. He then says are you leaving or just getting back and I say I just got here and he says oh where did you go and I say lunch and I smile and he says oh.
He then gets up and GRABS me and side hugs me and totally catches me off guard(especially since he told DD17 several weeks ago that I begged for all the hugs LOLOLOLOL). So anyways I kinda try to get out of this side hug but he has death grip on me. Finally he lets go and he says its really good to see you. I say well its kinda hard for me to see you and H says well its never hard for me to see you. I smile and kinda chuckle and say really even from the controlling wicked witch of the west and I laugh and he say no and he chuckles. I say well thanks for fixing everything and I walk away and just before I get in the door I say just let yourself out when you are done.
Well that was at 5:30 it is not 7PM and he has decided to go through ALL the boxes in my garage to see what he can get rid of and sell on ebay. Yes folks he's in the garage again LMAO!!!!!! He just sent son in with all the family VHS tapes to give to me and he says dad says to get these transferred to disc. Our wedding video is in some of that stuff too. Wonder how long it will take that to come in. LOL Guess I'll be updating you when he leaves. I have been in my room since 5:45. DD17 went to grab pizza. I guess they all planned dinner(geez)LOL.
Sad part...DS10 comes in about 30 minutes ago and say mom can dad just come in the house and I say no son and he says why and I say son why do you think? I say daddy cannot until the Sea Hag is gone. So his lil eyes well up with tears and I say go have fun with dad. DS10 comes back 20 minutes later and begs me and i say son no I cannot I will not share dad. Instead of begging me you are asking the wrong person. You should be asking him why he won't leave her to stay with you. Sorry son its not my choice.
Anyways yup H is in my garage going through everything...or at least that's his excuse for staying. Back in a bit.....
Sounds like you are doing a FANTASTIC JOB!
tst and I were thinking the same thing. Here it is....
Change into another smokin' outfit, tell husband you have some plans for the evening, ask him if he can take the kids out for dinner.
Then YOU stay out late.
Maybe go to the church (gotta key?), go see a movie, call up a friend.
Stay strong T2L. Do not let him back in without ACTIONS. When tst came over the first time telling me all I wanted to hear....well, it'll get to you, yanno. Stay strong. Wait for God to FINISH the job before you let him back into your heart.
Remember, protect your heart.
Ok so Im still in my room. DD17 brings back the pizza. DS10 is begging me to come out of my room to come eat with them, I say i'll be out in a minute.
I went out a few minutes later and H is sitting and eating with them! Kids invited him to eat with them. Man this is hilarious cuz I know i said let yourself out when your done. Oh wait but there's a some organzin ta do in dat der garage. I make some small talk, grab a slice and wander off to my room.
Back later.....
Sounds like you are doing a FANTASTIC JOB!
tst and I were thinking the same thing. Here it is....
Change into another smokin' outfit, tell husband you have some plans for the evening, ask him if he can take the kids out for dinner.
Then YOU stay out late.
Maybe go to the church (gotta key?), go see a movie, call up a friend.
Stay strong T2L. Do not let him back in without ACTIONS. When tst came over the first time telling me all I wanted to hear....well, it'll get to you, yanno. Stay strong. Wait for God to FINISH the job before you let him back into your heart.
Remember, protect your heart.
Yeah I hadn't thought of that. I just posted again. Im sure there is a friend I could go to. But can't have him take them to dinner cuz they are eating in my living room now!
No i read Carols' thread and she made her H wait and prove more for almost 2 additional months. Not gonna cave on my conditions. Either meet em or stay gone.
Ok change to something else fabolous and say you are going out for a "drink"...then head for the coffee stand!
Having fun reading this. Have to live through someone elses excitement! lol
Kinda worried if I go out again if it may be trying to hard? When I came home it looked like I was definitely out.
I don't want it to seem overly planned
.....
then I think you better start putting furniture up against the door! Seems he will have alternative plans.
Shall I ring?
T2L, I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but this hanging out he's doing is really worrying me. He was supposed to fix the sink and leave. That was, what, 8 hours ago? I love that you're making him jealous, but I hate that he has once again insinuated himself back into the family - AGAIN!
You specifically told your son he couldn't come in the house, and guess what - he's in the house! And you don't say anything.
He knows. He knows all he has to do is get the kids to want him, and he gets whatever he wants.
This is nowhere near a Plan B. I know it's hard with kids, but he's wheedling his way into every nook and cranny he can find, like termites.
What I'm trying to say is that it feels to me like he can go on like this for forever, cos he's getting way too much of a fix of you. And you are not getting YOUR benefit of Plan B - to not have your thoughts revolving around him.
Now mind you, I'm not talking about today's planned events. I think what you're doing is ingenious and necessary for getting him to want to come back. I'm talking about the whole picture - dropping off money for daughter, finding this reason or that reason to come by...it just seems like he's getting too much of a fix, and you're not getting enough of a break from the saga.
Like I said, I'm sorry if this brings you down, but I'm worried.
Hey T2L, sorry I could not talk. Having a small crisis at home. H has been texting D15 for the last hour. I don't want to cut into your sitch. Will go update mine. I think D15 wants to read to you what she texted.
Hope everything is going well. We are praying.
I'm talking about the whole picture - dropping off money for daughter, finding this reason or that reason to come by...it just seems like he's getting too much of a fix, and you're not getting enough of a break from the saga.
I agree with CAT. This does meet the FAMILY COMMITMENT emotional need and is not good for PLAN B. This may throw you back, IMO.
As I was indicating, Steve wanted me to only have BRIEF CONTACT with my H by phone and that was only when he was trying to reconcile.
I did not give the impression that I was seeing other men. I don't know your story but that would not have worked out in my situation. My H would have rationalized that as justification for what he was doing. He rationalized anything he could to continue his affair.
The key was for him to MISS ME during PLAN B and to think that he could LOSE ME...not to another man though...he still felt comfortable that wouldn't happen..because he knew I was taking the high road UNLIKE him...who had sunk so LOW...
And what the h&ll happened to using IMs?
He literally knows I will be loyal to him almost forever and that I would almost wait until he's done having his fun. Well this needs to change.
I just read this T2L and this was EXACTLY like my H. But my H needed to know that I would MOVE ON without him..but it was important for him to continue to believe that I would not have an affair or be with another man. There's a difference. He came to believe that I would MOVE ON as I stated in the PLAN B LETTER but this clearly meant LIVING INDEPENDENTLY and STANDING ON MY OWN TO FEET...not dating or whatever..maybe you and I are saying the same thing but I wanted to make clear what was true in my situation since it's like yours...
I've been with my H since age 18, about 35 years, never been with another man...he knew that...
The OW tried to make him believe that I would be with another man..be a HO like her and him...it was a GOOD thing that I never proved her right...he always felt that he could be sure of that...
I'm talking about the whole picture - dropping off money for daughter, finding this reason or that reason to come by...it just seems like he's getting too much of a fix, and you're not getting enough of a break from the saga.
I agree with CAT. This does meet the FAMILY COMMITMENT emotional need and is not good for PLAN B. This may throw you back, IMO.
As I was indicating, Steve wanted me to only have BRIEF CONTACT with my H by phone and that was only when he was trying to reconcile.
I did not give the impression that I was seeing other men. I don't know your story but that would not have worked out in my situation. My H would have rationalized that as justification for what he was doing. He rationalized anything he could to continue his affair.
The key was for him to MISS ME during PLAN B and to think that he could LOSE ME...not to another man though...he still felt comfortable that wouldn't happen..because he knew I was taking the high road UNLIKE him...who had sunk so LOW...
Ok y'all. I got rid of him an hour ago. At 8:40 I went to the garage and told DS10 you have to take your shower in 20 minutes(Hint time for you to leave). I went back at exactly 9PM and said Ok son time to shower and get ready for bed. He hugged his dad and said bye, I looked at him and said thank you for fixing my sink. HE said no problem, he said I'll leave in just a minute. I said will you be leaving through the garage? IN other words don't come in, and he says yes can DD17 close the door and i say yes and close the door and leave. So I feel good that I did not have to LB to get him out and he didn't stay til midnight and then ask to stay again. I think he is sad he had to go and that's not my problem, as he needs to feel sad.
I did not plan for him to stay. I planned to be gone while he fixed the sink, which I did. Sink job was a quickie, replace a seal, 30-45 minute job max. I came back 3 hours later to hopefully catch him on the way out in passing. Kids ended up asking him to fix the swimming pool issues too. So when I got here he was half way thru fixing the pool. I said thanks and he said all that he said and then I said LET YOURSELF OUT WHEN YOUR DONE. That was the brief contact I had with him. I did not speak with him after our 5 minutes exchange when I arrived.
I fully expected him to be done shortly after. He then decided to go through the garage and gather some of his belongings to sell on Ebay for extra cash. DD17 then grabbed pizza and when I came out to get some he was at my table. I made small talk, grabbed a slice and went back to my room. I did not eat with them. Where I stayed until I told DS10 time for shower. I stayed out of sight the entire evening except to grab my pizza and I think he knew I would not eat with them and he knew why.
Now when DS10 left garage and said goodbye DD17 thought he was leaving so she went out to say goodbye. H then tried to get her to watch TV with her in garage but she knew I wanted him to go. So she said no thanks and opened the garage door. HE then saw DS10 looking out the window waving and H says is he waiting for me to go? DD17 says yes, he says I should probably go then ha? And DD17 says yes. So he left. Yes I could have kicked him out and caused a scene but I do not want to withdraw from his love bank. I worked hard during PA not to and even during PB I have not.
Other than fixing my sink today I do not see him in passing and we do not talk in anyway shape or form because for the most part I don't really have a reason to as my children are a little older.
THe illusion I am creating can be verified. I did go to lunch with a friend, a church friend. I do talk to new friends everyday here and talking on the phone actually makes it easier, we don't have to wait to post. He can create in his little head what he wants. I basically tried to give a confident I am caring a little less vibe, but not rude.
As far as the IM's I still do all of my communication thru them. You can ask lil old Pep, Neak and Delean. The reason this happened this way was the kids kept putting water in the left sink and it kept flooding and I got after them and said stop putting water in here so DD17 told her dad mom keeps yelling at us over this leaking sink to which he do I need to fix it? This was beginning of week. I had planned on letting it go til next week before answering but he called DS10 last night and said he was coming to visit. SO i told DD17 well I guess you can answer your dad and tell him he can fix sink when he comes to visit son as I will be gone because I do not want to see him.
Neak < - - - - - Incognito again.
FWIW, I think today went stunningly well. The first part went every bit as well as General Pep planned, and I think you did really well handling the excessive staying again. To have been rude, or threatened to call the police, would have taken some of the shine of a superb Plan A.
I think it's far better to have let him have his way today, even though it's the second time, and just come up with new and better ways to keep him out in the future.
So I've been kicking around a few ideas. One of the first ones that pops into mind, would be to have p/u and dropoff for visitations take place somewhere else besides the house.
It's time for a few additional changes, but that in no way takes away from your excellent performance today.
Also, by all means, keep calling and texting. You have a life! You are a salsa queen! You are the one, the only, the amazing T2L!!!!!!!!
And Pepster, I can't wait to hear what you have to say, too. I have a few ideas.
Listen up, pup.
Why are you afraid to have a dude on the new phone voicemail?
Why did you not get dressed in skanky clothes and say you are going out to meet (heaven forbid) a MAN!
The goal here is to convince him that you will not wait forever for him to return to his family. That you will not sit home like a spinster?
Do what you must do- to get your husband to realize that you are not a 85 year old spinster. (sorry Mb ers who are 85+)
There is a policy of radical honesty.
That means, T2L that In the FUTURE
WHEN or IF he comes home-
He asks you "who was that guy on voicemail" or "Who were you going out to DATE (awww!) the night I fixed the sink?"
You sweetly look him in the face and say:
"I was fighting for our marriage and I wanted you home. I knew if you thought I was going to sit here, things were not going to change. The things I did were to get you to realize what this marriage really meant to YOU."
Enough said.
That is RADICALLY HONEST. That is all you are supposed to do in recovery.
He will either laugh,or be pissed-- as a FWS-- he should understand your intentions to fight for your marriage.
T2L, I really really wasn't trying to condemn what happened yesterday or to question your Plan B. I think it was awesome what you did. I was just trying to get you to REFOCUS, now that you've had this success.
Because I've seen what he does. He is very conniving. He is very good at seeing what he needs to do to get his fix.
That's why I was trying to get you to refocus back on your Plan B, now that you have shaken him up a bit.
In no way did I want you to create a scene to get him out. That wasn't the issue. IMO, the issue is to ensure he doesn't do this AGAIN, because I will bet you money he is sitting in his apartment already planning the NEXT time he just happens to be dropping by (what happened to his pre-arranged times to visit the kids?) and fenagles his way into getting to stay at the house ALL DAY LONG again.
That's what I was trying to get you to protect yourself from. I mean, my god, you have told him not to even park his car in front of your house - MORE THAN ONCE, and here he is COMPLETELY ignoring your feelings by plopping out IN your house and thumbing his nose at your feelings.
That's what I was trying to say. I didn't mean to offend you.
I'll bow out if you want since I don't know the full history of your situation T2L. BUT I wonder what Mortarman would think about this situation. It seems NOWHERE near the DARK PLAN B he kept recommending to me and I think worked for me/US....
It's important for the WS not to get ANY FIXES through contact with the BS... Mortarman kept telling me this would set me back and it DID...
My H would get FIXES from THE HOUSE..these occasions WOULD relieve his PAIN and SUFFERING from being gone..he would visit his clothes in his closet...actually STAND in the closet and move stuff around and touch different items...
Also, I think your H is getting RELIEF by continuing to think of himself as honoring his FAMILY COMMITMENT by FIXING STUFF..YUCK...
AND..Steve Harley warned me against use of any of the 180 stuff..important not to make the WS think that I was being unfaithful...
Good mornin y'all.
CAT,
Oh no offense taken dawhling.
I understand and know most people who post for me are for me and not against me.
I think that H did know that I did not want him in the house. Aside from fixing the sink while I was gone, and eating a few slices of pizza he was not inside the home while I was there. He stayed out in the garage, kinda sad, this man that was once such a fairly good guy now reduced to staying out in a garage. He knew I did not want to eat with him because as scooted out to garage as soon as he was done.
The 2 times he has gotten in so far are because my son asked him to play pool last week after visitation drop off(i forgot to lay the rules out to him, but had already done so to DD17) and yesterday when I asked him to fix the sink while I was away.
I do agree he gets a fix because truly he loves being at the home and he loves being with us, but until he does something about that It's not my problem.
I am continuing in PB. HE will be visiting the kids away from the house at least when DD17 can get in DS10's car. And my IM's and I have discussed having it very dark away from the house and a few other things too.
I can see now by his comments to me yesterday of wow you look great, its good to see you and never hard to see you and the hug by force, that maybe he still cares for me. I do not however understand why he won't jump in and come home, especially after those comments. IDK.
I feel something is up in affair land. The cell calls last month decreased by half and went 2 times with out calls for 5 days each, he says those things to me, something is up. Part of me believes he is waiting for that stupid lease to be up as he has mentioned he doesn't want to break the lease and be charged with $2500. During PA he told me he has an 8 month lease. Its up April 1st. Or maybe he is waiting to tell her he doesn't want to re-new the lease, IDK could all be wrong.
Anyways I am letting his mind create the scenario. I am just getting dressed to go have lunch and all my friends from MB are calling me. I am hoping that aside of these minor spottings of T2L all the work I have done, kick b*tt plan A, a fairly ok Plan b, and the little passing by, will all work together. I mean PrincessMeggy is recovered and she had none of this. For me I have tried to be strategic as best as I could.
I am hoping things are shifting. He was really glad to see me, it was apparent. HE grabbed and hugged me after all that trash he talked to DD17 a while back about me begging for the hugs and me being the one to initiate it, I tried 2 times to get away too LOL and then saying it was good to see me and I half rejected his comment by saying well its pretty hard to see you and he still comments again by saying well its never hard to see.
Anyways, I have been praying the God would show him the love he still had for me, he may not realize he still does. I prayed before I walked in yesterday, Lord reveal to him the feelings he still has for me. His desire for me can't come back til he realizes he desires me, I think and hope yesterday may have done it. IDK, maybe not, but I did get a fixed kitchen sink and the kids jumped in the jacuzzi he fixed and stayed in til midnight having a good time.
I'll bow out if you want since I don't know the full history of your situation T2L. BUT I wonder what Mortarman would think about this situation. It seems NOWHERE near the DARK PLAN B he kept recommending to me and I think worked for me/US....
It's important for the WS not to get ANY FIXES through contact with the BS... Mortarman kept telling me this would set me back and it DID...
My H would get FIXES from THE HOUSE..these occasions WOULD relieve his PAIN and SUFFERING from being gone..he would visit his clothes in his closet...actually STAND in the closet and move stuff around and touch different items...
Also, I think your H is getting RELIEF by continuing to think of himself as honoring his FAMILY COMMITMENT by FIXING STUFF..YUCK...
AND..Steve Harley warned me against use of any of the 180 stuff..important not to make the WS think that I was being unfaithful...
Hi Mimi,
Thanks so much for sharing I really do appreciate it and any input you have been given by the Harleys and your experience really is completely welcomed so no don't blow out.
Yes I do agree that H has a bit of the hero complex, think that may have been the open door for this. HE of course affaired down, this girl was a mess from what I hear and little old Pastor Mr. T2L was gonna help her out and probably offer counsel and she started worshiping him and there it went...
I know that individuals with small children have to do a slightly modified PB for what ever reason. So a PB can be done when they pass children at the door or pull sleeping lil ones from cars with small sightings of each other in passing. I am hoping I can still do that as well. In 11 weeks I have had only 2 sightings, and 1 phone call. During those sightings I did not cave my boundaries and repeated the PBL. Other than yes he has gotten information to me by stinky comments to DD17 HE has not heard me, seen me, got a text from me, an email from me, nuttin. The only part of my PB that I may have not been as good at is on my side. His side has been dark. My side has not been quite as dark because I think to much and have heard some of his dumb comments.
So anyways whenever you have any input you feel may be helpful by all means post it.
T2L:
I so envy you right now. I have tears in my eyes because I long for what you got yesterday. I wish my WH would stop by and see the kids he left 35 days ago. I wish he would grab me for a hug like he used to and tell me that he still cares. But I can't have another false recovery so it's dark Plan B and D.
I know you need to preserve your heart and not settle for crumbs, but at least he still has feelings for you.
I think the more you mess with him with the phone calls, dates and other stuff, the better. Does he by chance monitor your credit card bills? If so, maybe you want to order something from an "inappropriate" website -- beyond Victoria's Secret if you know what I mean. I've been thinking of doing the same thing. Let WH think his boring, predictable W is now into sex toys.
Let WH think his boring, predictable W is now into sex toys.
Well if you REALLY want to freak him out, order something from Adam & Eve. I guess they are still around. Gray used to get their catalogs. Even ordered some stuff from them. Videos...I think lingerie, too. (For me.) No toys, though. (BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!) LMAO!!
Damn! Wish I woulda thought of that just to mess with his head!! That would have been HILARIOUS!! Well, I could still do that with eBay...I KNOW he watches my account. LMAO!!
I'm sure they know they are being watched and that's why the voodoo doll was so blatantly purchased. Stupid ****stick!!
LMAO!!!!
No, it's not about the lease. He may tell himself that, but it's not. He can be free any time he chooses to be.
He has to pay $2500 in penalty fees, or he has to pay rent for Feb., March and April? Yeah that's smart. :RollieEyes:
I'm tellin ya, if this boy don't come home soon then there's something wrong with him and IMHO you don't want him! I can't believe he isn't knocking on your door in tears agreeing to NC right now!
He has to pay $2500 in penalty fees, or he has to pay rent for Feb., March and April? Yeah that's smart. :RollieEyes:
I'm tellin ya, if this boy don't come home soon then there's something wrong with him and IMHO you don't want him! I can't believe he isn't knocking on your door in tears agreeing to NC right now!
Neak is right tho. He could easily go no contact, I can write a check for his half up to that point. So he can come home. I think he wants to come home. I just don't know what it will take for him to get there.
He said in PA that he didn't want to hurt anyone else(Sea Hag) and I replied well the kids and I are hurting and hes says i know but time has to take its place(whatever).
BTW he looked at all the newly hung pictures and the kids said he looked for a long time and didn't say 1 word.
Your did fine my dear. Even with the unexpected left turn WH took.
Anywho - it was fun talking to you and texting on the phone.
Yes, he got his "fix". And also yes, he's a little more worried now than he was before.
Change the locks on the house and the garage too. If he has a garage door opener, change the access code.
Your did fine my dear. Even with the unexpected left turn WH took.
Anywho - it was fun talking to you and texting on the phone.
Yes, he got his "fix". And also yes, he's a little more worried now than he was before.
Change the locks on the house and the garage too. If he has a garage door opener, change the access code.
Ello, Yes I enjoyed talking too, thanks for everything you guys! My IM's rock! I know he got a "fix" but we can go right back dark and hopefully he will start to see he wants to be here, that's the hope at least.
Locks all changed as soon as he left, garage door too. He knows this. He has no access in. He was only given access yesterday for the sink stuff.
I am glad however my pool is fixed and i didn't need to hire the warranty guys. Kids had a blast in the jacuzzi after he left. LOL
K y'all keep the calls coming. The billing cuts off February 15th, LOL.
I hope he's worried, he should have been long time ago. Guess he must be with those comments. I am assuming he made them to still show his interest correct?
I am assuming he made them to still show his interest correct?
There are doubtless layers which I won't even attempt to plumb. I think he's sincere on the one hand - but not yet in enough pain to leave the Hag, and also testing to see if he still has an effect on you.
Definitely, he's worried.
hiii im t2ls daughter....
ok with this i think i understand whats your saying... im trying to help my mom understand....
his life's rut would be church!!! he always talks about church..
and how much he hates it and wont go back and would never be a pastor...
One time he came to visit he was pretty much agruing with himself..
he said
" Hypothetically speaking"
what if i was to go be a pastor... i would never make the church give offering..because that's cheesy.. and i want god to supply my needs.. and i would never ask for a offering..
then he'll say something like
but anyways i would never go back and do that!!! ill never be like the other pastor and everyone will leave the church...because im not him...
well anyways..
ok so last night when i said goodbye to him.. i said well its 12 am are you going to be heading home soon????
and he said.. uuughh hmmm no i dont want to...
im tired.. and i said well hmmm..
(i knew in my mom wouldnt let him stay)
so i said..hmm well i dont really know about that! you gotta go ask the head hancho!
and he kinda chuckled..
and i said bye
and the whole love you schpeel..
so what do you think about that!!!?!?!
He doesn't want to go "home" to his house. It isn't "home". Your response of "hmmmmm" was absolutely terrific. It said more than words could have said! You said both "I'm thinking", but more "Gee dad, you need to think about what you are doing here - your life is screwed up, you are standing in the garage of what you call HOME, and you are having to ask permission to stay..."
and then you say this:
"the head honcho".
And his only response is to chuckle. Because he knows you have him there. And he laughs because he recognizes that he is standing in the garage and has no power left. He has to ask, and he is powerless in what he used to consider his own home, where he held the power. That he has put himself here, and he sees this - and laughs at himself, because he knows that YOU know. And laughs at the absurdity of his own behavior - that he is a schoolboy trying to cover his attempts to woo the girl, and everyone else knows it.
You ask about church and his life's rut. He sees himself as fallen, that he cannot be the pastor. Nope, he can't - and he does not want that for himself. And yes, the question for him is that if he returns he may very well see it as returning to that path, and he cannot do it. He can't, he is in crisis and cannot see himself as leading others. At least in the foreseeable future.
That message needs to be acknowledged to him. His self-talk about pastoring? He is a philosophical man, nothing more. People who are like this take on various roles, compare their own styles to others', and try to think through their own futures and think through their own life-paths. He is doing that, and does not see the pastor role as his. That's okay.
He struggles philosophically with the money end of churches. Not unusual - lots of people do, including many pastors. I've heard it plagues the pastoring skills of quite a few, and so not uncommon.
SB
T2L,
Thanks for good information!
It doesn't surprise me that he had his crisis of confidence on the eve of getting his degree. This is actually not uncommon, and not really limited to people getting a theology degree. People getting degrees lots of times may feel pigeonholed into one path. For example, somebody getting a teaching degree may feel like that funnels them into teaching, and they may have found out through getting the degree that it really wasn't for them. Only here they are, just a semester away from graduation, locked into it! They can't very well just stop, having spent all that money. People are depending on them, they have commitments, they have loans, they have invested four or five years, etc. It happens all the time. For someone in the ministry, there is the additional factor of the ethical and moral concepts - they especially feel obligations beyond someone in other fields might feel, and he probably felt the weight very strongly, if he was having doubts.
That is one thing to consider. He might benefit from talking to someone in the ministry, and exploring how he could use the courses he has to complete a degree in a related field, or to go ahead and finish his degree and work in a related field. Social work and counseling come to mind right off the top of my head, but the college could probably help him - they have likely done this before!
You have an interesting question on one of his comments, and I will answer it. He said, "I only love him or want him so I won't mess up my image." You said you didn't really understand what he meant.
What he was trying to tell you was that he didn't have confidence in why you loved him, especially after his betrayal of you. He thinks that maybe you "want to love him", but do not really love him, and that you are focused on a social appearance of loving him and continuing your marriage for the sake of maintaining your image in the community.
It is very important for you to somehow convey to him that you have not lost your depth of love for him despite his affair. I think that if you can show him that you are fully capable of forgiving his affair, and that you have not stopped loving him, he will return to your marriage. I say this because he has shown several attempts to get you to ask him to return to him - he does not want to ask you, he wants to be asked.
This is shown because he has said, "She always begs me for hugs" when that is not true, because he wants others to believe he is desireable and that you still want him. He wants to save face. He wants you to ask him - not the other way around - and he does it by hanging around late and putting you in the position of feeling like he is too tired to drive. If you feel sorry enough for him, or are too worried about him, you might ask him to stay, and that will make it possible for him to say truthfully, "SHE ASKED ME". He is pushing the envelope, so watch this and do not be fooled.
He has also asked this leading question: "How do you know I am still with OW?"
This is a tease. There are multiple analyses for this type of question, and he is hoping you are questioning this - which you ARE.
Here are the possibilities:
1. He is messing with you, and is still with OW.
2. He is no longer with OW and they are (CHOKE) "friends".
3. They have toned down relationship.
4. They are in the phase of flushing the affair into the netherworld, and the fantasy is over.
5. OW has given him the boot.
6. He has realized OW is no prize and he wants to come home, but hasn't the courage to admit it.
There are others, but you get the idea. Lots of possibilities. I sort of go with number 4, with a bit of 6 thrown in.
Plus, he knows he is an idiot, and cannot figure out how to put the pieces back together again. So, somehow, the message has to get to him that you DO love him, and that if the OW goes away, there is a path home.
My thoughts?
I don't know if it has been done before, but has anyone ever rewritten the Plan B letter? With more emphasis on the love, and then signing out with something like, "We can recover this marriage. As soon as your affair partner is out of your life foreever, come home and let's start over. We can have a new path together. Let's start with love, forgiveness, and dreams of a new future. Think of the possibilities."
Then, you need to go about as dark as anyone ever has. Because from where I sit, he gets too many fixes of you.
SB
Oooh I like the idea of sending an updated PBL, letting him know there really IS hope and a REAL open door back home.
You could use seeing him again recently as the opener.
when DD17 can get in DS10's car.
Huh?
DS10 has a car? Huh? What?
I tried to figure this one out but no luck!
Charlotte
Schoolbus darling,
We IM's had been quietly discussing whether we should send him an oh-so-brief offer of a road map home.
Do you think the letter you envision needs to come directly from her, or do you think it would still work through us?
when DD17 can get in DS10's car.
Huh?
DS10 has a car? Huh? What?
I tried to figure this one out but no luck!
Charlotte
LMAO ok so switch a roo!
When DS10 can get into DD17's car to go to the visit...LOL
Schoolbus darling,
We IM's had been quietly discussing whether we should send him an oh-so-brief offer of a road map home.
Do you think the letter you envision needs to come directly from her, or do you think it would still work through us?
IMHO, I think if this is done, that it should be done by me to have the impact that it needs to. If he's going to let his guard and pride down to anyone it's more likely going to be to me than to anyone else. I saw just for a moment his pride drop by his response to me yesterday after I had told him its hard for me to see him. For him to even say anything after that mild rejection, and come back and say its never hard for him to see me, was the tiniest letting down of a wall. And it can be a little more personal, where if it comes from you guys it loses that personal touch, but again that's my opinion. I just don't want to waste a 1 time opportunity and have it not hit him they way its needed to if it comes from strangers who he may feel do not care for him the way i do, opinion again. We've been together since we were 14, so I can't imagine anyone closer to him or knows him better than I do. Also SB's version of request says, "come home" he won't do it for y'all but he may do it for me and the kids.
when DD17 can get in DS10's car.
Huh?
DS10 has a car? Huh? What?
I tried to figure this one out but no luck!
Charlotte
LMAO ok so switch a roo!
When DS10 can get into DD17's car to go to the visit...LOL
Okay, thanks!! I feel better now. I'm not going crazy after all!!
Or am I?
:crosseyedcrazy:
Schoolbus darling,
We IM's had been quietly discussing whether we should send him an oh-so-brief offer of a road map home.
Do you think the letter you envision needs to come directly from her, or do you think it would still work through us?
I forget where I stole this from, I have so much stuff filed away from the early, crazy, download anything that might be helpful days. If anyone recognises it, could they please ad the the name.
"You have hurt me more deeply than I ever thought possible. You broke your promise and violated my trust. I need you to understand my pain and help me move through it. But I still love you. I still want you. If you will commit yourself to never seeing OW again, and working with me to discover how we can make something better out of our marriage, then I will not hold this affair over your head. It will take time... it will take work... but I will give you a fresh start. I will forgive you."
Schoolbus darling,
We IM's had been quietly discussing whether we should send him an oh-so-brief offer of a road map home.
Do you think the letter you envision needs to come directly from her, or do you think it would still work through us?
I forget where I stole this from, I have so much stuff filed away from the early, crazy, download anything that might be helpful days. If anyone recognises it, could they please ad the the name.
"You have hurt me more deeply than I ever thought possible. You broke your promise and violated my trust. I need you to understand my pain and help me move through it. But I still love you. I still want you. If you will commit yourself to never seeing OW again, and working with me to discover how we can make something better out of our marriage, then I will not hold this affair over your head. It will take time... it will take work... but I will give you a fresh start. I will forgive you."
And maybe this?
"and I suspect that you think my expectations include for you to resume where you left off in the ministry. That is not the case. As your wife, and in obedience to God, I will respect whatever decision you make concerning that because our first and most important ministry is to each other and our family. I KNOW and I hope you realize that God has never stopped loving you and is willing to meet you where you are."
Like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland-- Cake eaters LOVE to throw crumbs.
(He- remember- in the Disney cartoon everyone at the party screaming for the "Must-ARD?")
That, is what I believe WS is doing- getting a T2L "fix" - (He has gotta keep throwing those crumbs... or she will STARVE. He KNOWS T2L lives and breathes because of him.) Hooooey.
T2L- You deserve so much more. That is the thought that cme into my head why all this "hugging" and "love to see you" sh*& was going on. I would have looked him COLD in the eye, and said,
without a flinch "Do you seriously think this what I want or deserve?"
The attitude change has to be inside your head.
I think you did a good job-- but there are "arrows" you chould have shot (not real arrows here, people.) that could have gotten your new attitude over to him.
I mean, if you could look at this situation from a few paces back- like you were observing a friend. I get kind of angry at this treatment. You have asked repeatedly for a commitment- a simple thing for a spouse to request.
and cake eater wants to give you crumbs.
Ok :MrEEk: vent warning.. :MrEEk:.vent warning.. :MrEEk:.vent warning..
If he really respected you, after all this time. Would he do this? Would he want his daughter to settle for this type of relationship?
Forget "what does he mean by this?...what does he really mean by that?" He needs to step up to the plate. He really MUST think you will stay in this HOLDING pattern forever. I see now what you mean.
Or at least respect you enough to stop sneaking into your life through a garage, forchissakes, ...
whew...(pant..pant)
I am so glad you have the patience for this. I give you credit T2L. I would have lost my mind by now (that's why I love the Mad Hatter's Tea Party so much!)
If you think a new PB letter will help, if you saw a chink in the scales, I think it should come from T2L
But for pity's sakes, don't beg or sound desperate. I like the aforementioned letters. Simple- to the point.
Do you guys think it is a little early?
He really responded to the DIFFERENT you. The one who respects herself enough to have a life without him. You have changed your attitude here, dear-- I can read it. It is hitting a chorus with him. Don't cave too quick.
I don't know how to deliver this message to your wayward husband.
But Try - Here are the signs YOU need to look for that he is ready to recover.
1. He must lay down his spiritual rebellion against God. You and your children need a spiritual leader in your home, not a spiritual cripple. He MUST be ready to let God work on his heart, or he has not reached his bottom yet where he is exhausted and ready to seek out God.
2. He must stop rebelling at your protective boundaries. The minute he starts seeking out your intermediaries for direction on how to win you back is the signal that HE GETS IT!
3. Fruits of repentance include scheduling a lie-detector test, and asking Pep and crew to prepare the questions; talking with an attorney about a post-nup agreement where he surrenders his financial fate completely if he ever cheats again or if you are not completely convinced of his repentance NOW. He becomes a God-fearing man instead of the spiritually defiant mess he's become.
I don't know if this can be conveyed in a 2nd Plan B letter or not.
But he needs to get a message this rebellious behavior is not endearing.
Here's a brief study on rebellion in the Old Testament:
Do you recognize the wayward husband?
Deut. 31: 27
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?
Josh. 22: 22
22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)
1 Sam. 15: 23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (your daughter's reference to the boss is fitting on this one)
Ezra 4: 19
19 And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein.
Neh. 9: 17
17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to danger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.
Job 34: 37
37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
Prov. 17: 11
11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him. (intermediaries, anyone?)
Jer. 28: 16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the Lord.
Jer. 29: 32
32 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the Lord; because he hath taught rebellion against the Lord.
Try - your husband is teaching rebellion against the Lord, by word and example - him talking with your daughter about his wayward ministry - how he'd run the church is teaching rebellion against God. A study of Malachi will demonstrate how the Lord expects a full tithe - and your husband is teaching contrary to that law. And in doing so, if he were in charge of the ministry would deprive those in his congregation the blessings of paying a full tithe. That is, unless he found a church where the structure is entirely a volunteer ministry... Congregation tithes do not go to pay ministers at all.
Good morning all!
First off thanks everyone for popping on and giving me feedback I sure appreciate it!
No matter the perspective I like hearing what others have to say. I weigh things and balance them and go with what I feel God is saying to me.
I do believe my H is in fog in all areas of his life including his views on his call, ministry and destiny in Christ. Yes he did tell his daughter that mess about the tithe but so y'all know we had been tithers for almost 13 years. I view his talks about the ministry and himself are not a bad thing necessarily. This shows me alot.
I do know that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance and God will not repent of what He predestined any of us to do. Perfect example is Paul or any one of the less than perfect characters in the bible. So its okay for my H to see his self that way. If God can get him to still see that in spite of falling pretty far, then God can surely straighten out his views of the tithe. And truly this is the perspective he comes from. We had many discussions on this. My H is an entrepreneur at heart, he always wanted to have his own income so he would never have to take money from the people. That was his issue. He wanted to preach for free so he could be free to say exactly what was on his heart. But then he had a great deal of fear over what he was called to do. He has even kinda made mention that he may have done this to avoid it. I have to try and remember exactly what he said....gimme a bit I may remember.
As far as coming across a little stronger I understand your view and its accurate that I don't deserve that. But I understand also the power of my feminine nature, as did Ester. I know how to use it with strength with out losing that ever so attractive nature and essence of a woman. My H is turned off by overly strong or masculine natures, as are most men. Most men when approached in a masculine way will put up their boxing gloves. I feel God made them that way, and when we approach men as men then we get treated as men. Does make sense? I know I do not need to be a door mat, but I do know how to approach my H and when he will listen.
{{{{Hugs}}}
Well, you have done an excellent Plan A, and a very good Plan B, and you have the best IMs. To me, it looks like hubby is trying to find a way back.
If I were you, I would scrape up the money for one call to the Harleys, and get expert guidance. I always thought it was too much money. Came to find out that divorce costs 1000 times what one call would have.
If you think a new PB letter will help, if you saw a chink in the scales, I think it should come from T2L
But for pity's sakes, don't beg or sound desperate. I like the aforementioned letters. Simple- to the point.
Do you guys think it is a little early?
He really responded to the DIFFERENT you. The one who respects herself enough to have a life without him. You have changed your attitude here, dear-- I can read it. It is hitting a chorus with him. Don't cave too quick.
We're gonna wait just a bit and watch to see what last weekend's effect is. He did call last night to talk to DS10 and did the normal is mom there? Where is she call. LOLOLOL This is normal now and it wasn't several months ago. I see this as a good sign.
I will not beg and told him so at the start. Pre-SAA 1 month in to this mess I had kinda cut him off, about 90%. He came by to visit. He asked me during the visit, why I am not begging him back if I wanted the marriage so bad. I pointed to my son outside and said you want the mother of that boy to beg, I said never. I did that remember after you told me and then for the 2 weeks you were here you told me why you should not be here so I will not beg you. So he knows I will not beg.
I really like what Schoolbus sugguest and even a WHOLE lot to what Pep said about H not being secure. He wasn't, I knew it, and so I always told him how great of a man he was, but it didn't help. I think his self esteem was much much lower than I had realized. A 2nd PBL is obviously not exactly per SAA but i feel there may be a leading of God to go this route(I pray for my IM's (and y'all) that God would give wisdom and insight on things to do and I know he will quicken them and give them the things I need to know and understand and may not be able to because I am too close to the situation.)
Well, you have done an excellent Plan A, and a very good Plan B, and you have the best IMs. To me, it looks like hubby is trying to find a way back.
If I were you, I would scrape up the money for one call to the Harleys, and get expert guidance. I always thought it was too much money. Came to find out that divorce costs 1000 times what one call would have.
Hello lovely Lil B! I missed you!!!
I think when I get some tax money I may do that. I think he wants back to. He has mentioned to others in the past(last summer), that he did not think he could fix it or that it would never be the same-Schoolbus point this out too.
B you should come here when Lildoggie comes to the states next month! I think your only abt 3 hours away....I know i guess it is kinda far LOL
Oh, I've been reading all along, but think you are getting excellent advice.
I'm hoping to be in Seattle at the stair climbing when Lil and Flick are there.
I live in Oceanside, which is just south of you, but you know how hard it is to get everyone together and still do what you want to do. I figure that since they will be at the stair climbing anyway, I'll just be there too.
To me, it looks like hubby is trying to find a way back.
I think he is, too.
I think it's his dayumed pride thingy that is the only roadblock right now.
I think he is, too.
I think it's his dayumed pride thingy that is the only roadblock right now.
LOL I think so too!
H thinks and thinks and thinks, I am sure that his little old head is ready to burst! I bet he is wrestling with his pride and God all day long, but tells his self he's fine LMAO LMAO LMAO But now it may be worse with the memory of what his wife looked like on Saturday.
I think it's his dayumed pride thingy that is the only roadblock right now.
I agree!
We're going wait for a little bit and watch things but these are the issues I am considering in addressing in 2nd PBL per suggestion and posts. This will give me the time needed to condense all that below to a short letter. Thanks to all for the input. Its perfect. Will post rough draft when we are close to sending.
Per Schoolbus:
Convey to him that I have not lost my depth of love for him despite his affair and that I am fully capable of forgiving his affair, that I have not stopped loving him.
SB-I say this because he has shown several attempts to get you to ask him to return to him - he does not want to ask you, he wants to be asked. So, somehow, the message has to get to him that you DO love him, and that if the OW goes away, there is a path home.
Write 2nd PBL, With more emphasis on the love, and then signing out with something like, "We can recover this marriage. As soon as your affair partner is out of your life forever, come home and let's start over. We can have a new path together. Let's start with love, forgiveness, and dreams of a new future. Think of the possibilities." SB also says-This concept that he doesn't want to answer to anybody may be quite broadly applied here. He may have fears that he is being judged (rightly so), and that he cannot possibly fix things. Also, that he wants to do things that he has never done before, but that other people will comment on the changes - and he does not want to have to deal with that issue. Many people go through this. He really wants to change. What are the ramifications of changing? He's so locked in, everyone in his life will comment! He would practically have to move to New York City and get a new identity to do this without having to explain himself and not weather a storm of controversy and hassling. So your husband may be feeling the need for something different, a break from the old things - and not want to answer to anyone for the break. Does this make sense?
Talk to him about it. But think of it not in terms of controlling him - think of it in terms of him wanting to break from what he feels is his life's rut.
Posted by PrincessMeggy:
"and I suspect that you think my expectations include for you to resume where you left off in the ministry. That is not the case. As your wife, and in obedience to God, I will respect whatever decision you make concerning that because our first and most important ministry is to each other and our family. I KNOW and I hope you realize that God has never stopped loving you and is willing to meet you where you are."
Per Pep:
Dig deeper, it's about fear of intimacy. The smaller the man feels on the inside, the greater his need for admiration. He feels very small indeed.
Neak:
Put in a sentence about how many people have recovered their marriages from this and are now very happy.
Posted by Lildoggie:
"You have hurt me more deeply than I ever thought possible. You broke your promise and violated my trust. I need you to understand my pain and help me move through it. But I still love you. I still want you. If you will commit yourself to never seeing OW again, and working with me to discover how we can make something better out of our marriage, then I will not hold this affair over your head. It will take time... it will take work... but I will give you a fresh start. I will forgive you."
I was trying to think of a way of incorporating line(s) from WH's favorite song or movie into the future letter.
Any creative ideas T2L?
Pep
Also, I would include a line or two about your responsibility to your daughter and son, showing them both how a woman should (or should not) be treated in a marriage. Neak can phrase it politely, possibly even with some gentle humor. I'm much more likely to just go
thwack.
tl
what's wh's favorite song...the booty song..
"Look at that booty. Show me the booty.
Gimme the booty. I want the booty.
Back up tha booty. I need tha booty.
I like the booty. Oh, what a booty.
Shakin' that booty. I saw tha booty." :twobyfour:
having that kind of day...
[T-J]Oh, I've been reading all along, but think you are getting excellent advice.
I'm hoping to be in Seattle at the stair climbing when Lil and Flick are there.
I live in Oceanside, which is just south of you, but you know how hard it is to get everyone together and still do what you want to do. I figure that since they will be at the stair climbing anyway, I'll just be there too.
I'll tell Flick, he will be chuffed
[/T-J]
what's wh's favorite song...the booty song..
"Look at that booty. Show me the booty.
Gimme the booty. I want the booty.
Back up tha booty. I need tha booty.
I like the booty. Oh, what a booty.
Shakin' that booty. I saw tha booty." :twobyfour:
having that kind of day...
LMAO!!!!!!!
I think his song may also include...
"I may not be gettin any OW booty"
"Now I may be losin my woman's booty"
Chuffed? Oh no..........................................
I was trying to think of a way of incorporating line(s) from WH's favorite song or movie into the future letter.
Any creative ideas T2L?
Pep
Hmmm, He loves music in general but our family favorite is quoting our favorite dumb comedies at each other. All 4 of us would try and beat each other to the punch quoting our dumb comedies and then die of laughter. He is very quick witted and would always have us laughing hysterically so the kids and I would always try to beat him to something funny. I would say since laughter is good medicine and a definite connection with us that may be something to throw in. He would quote these the way someone would sing a song.
I know that our silly humor the OW will not get and that was a HUGE part of Mr. T2L. He loved making the family and other laugh. What to do you think about that.
Chuffed? Oh no..........................................
whats wrong with chuffed????
I know that our silly humor the OW will not get and that was a HUGE part of Mr. T2L. He loved making the family and other laugh. What to do you think about that.
If it can be smoothly worked into the note it's a useful thing.
Pep
Hmmm, He loves music in general but our family favorite is quoting our favorite dumb comedies at each other. All 4 of us would try and beat each other to the punch quoting our dumb comedies and then die of laughter. He is very quick witted and would always have us laughing hysterically so the kids and I would always try to beat him to something funny. I would say since laughter is good medicine and a definite connection with us that may be something to throw in. He would quote these the way someone would sing a song.
I know that our silly humor the OW will not get and that was a HUGE part of Mr. T2L. He loved making the family and other laugh. What to do you think about that.
Thy canine lover.
Where is your hot breath
upon the nape of my neck?
We shall form a bond of brotherhood:
man and beast.
You shall lick my face
and I shall lick your snout.
He loved making the family and other laugh. What to do you think about that.
"I miss laughing with you, and I know we can bring laughter to our home again."
I like the idea of another PBL, but only if it is followed by complete darkness...including cutting him off from ANY knowledge about you, i.e., checking account, children discussing you, etc.
I said this in my email, but I don't know what yer checkin' first, so I'll repeat:
I'd leave out the hurt part. He KNOWS you're hurt. You don't have to remind him (yet)...especially because he thinks YOU cannot get past it. If you put the "hurt" bit in, that's ALL he's going to see, and he's going to go clam on you again. Leave it out. Talking about "hurts" comes in way later.
Trust.
There.
I even made it pink for you like I did in the mail.
Where art thou, dog?
Thy canine lover.
Where is your hot breath
upon the nape of my neck?
We shall form a bond of brotherhood:
man and beast.
You shall lick my face
and I shall lick your snout.
LOL
Let me translate....
Thy Sea Hag lover.
Where is your hot breath
upon the nape of my neck?
We shall form a broken slimy bond:
man and Sea Hag.
You shall lick my scales
and I shall kiss your *ss.
LMAO
yup.
Thats almost exactly what I was thinking
"Where art thou, hag?
Thy foul lover.
Where is your evil breath
upon the nape of my neck?
We shall form a broken slimy bond:
alien and Sea Hag
You shall lick my scales
and I shall kiss your *ss
Ok y'all. I had to break PB just a bit and only did it in text. H texted DD17 about 10:45PM that his grandmother died.
I did not call I just sent a simple text saying I am sorry for the loss of your grandma. He responded thank you, I am sad. Of course probably shouldn't have responded but I sent back I am sure you are sad but now your grandma is in a better place with her full mind and no Alzheimer.
He then texted its hard to lose family.....(Man I really wanted to say I know, what does he think I am??!!!!
) I didn't I simply responded I understand. He then texted thank you goodnight and I did not respond.
Don't know if its alright to have a texting break for PB but I did it, don't feel guilty about it. I may have felt worse if I had not said anything at all. I want him to understand the new strength I am gaining but I don't want him to think i am a heartless biatch.
I am not speaking to H's mother who is condoning the A...well she says she is not but that she is supporting her son
Anyways I have PB'd her and its her mother who died. I do not want to give my condolences to his mom. Is this wrong? Should I? I have nothing good to say to her, she feels fully ok with telling my H that if the Sea Hag is what he wants then she will support whatever decision he wants(H made the mistake of telling me this a month after dday).
Oh but of course since she has told H that she does not want to meet the Sea Hag then it makes her ok she's not really condoning it. Ugg. Sorry, anyways I told my H sorry for the loss, do i have to tell his mother? Whats the right thing to do?
Funny thing is this grandma was not really a nice person, in fact H really disliked her very much. She was a mean grandma a lot of the time and even H's mother did not get along with her and it was her own mother. Anyways my H can not care about anything or anyone at times and then death comes and it hits him hard and he gets really emotional. He is coming over tomorrow early in the morning to drop off the W2's so we can get our taxes done. Praise the Lord he is going to give me half of it.
DD17 told him that mom and Gabe are gone part of the day because of swimming class but to leave the W2 under the mat. I am hoping to not run into him. I hope we are gone when he comes. i don't want him to try and look to me to meet his emotional need if he starts to cry over his grandma. What do I do if for some odd reason he comes as we are leaving and gets all emotional...what do you do in that situation? It may not happen but I do better if I am prepared, I don't work well on the fly.
G'night friends....
Well, it IS his grandma...I don't think you should feel guilty about responding.
As far as your MIL, just send her a generic-type sympathy card, nothing too mushy from you and the kids. It's the right thing to do, IMO.
I just found out a friend that I've known most of my life passed away Tuesday. She used to go to school with my Mom. Her daughter went to school with my bro and sis, in the same grade as my bro.
We used to hang out back in the day. She was one tough customer but she just found out she had cancer last month and was starting chemo today. I don't know how she died, though, Mom just told me she passed. I'm hoping to contact my sister for more details on that in the a.m.
Take care,
Charlotte
Don't try, BE out of there before he can get there.
If he wants to lay his head on your loving, sympathetic bosoms, he knows how to make that happen. You NEED to not be there when he comes looking for that.
However, if he does surprise you at home later on, follow your instructions for unexpected contact. I wouldn't put it past him to make a second stop later, when you've gotten back home.
As to your MIL, it depends on how you feel. I don't think you owe her anything. If you're up to a simple card, just signed and not written all over lol, that's fine. But whatever you're most comfortable with, even if you're most comfortable with nothing.
Hey, WHY ARE YOU STILL HERE??? GET OUT OF THE HOUSE!!!!!
Hey T2L, you did the right thing. It is a death after all.
You said your H did not like his grandmother and she was mean but you also mentioned she had Alzeimer. She might have had it for years and it does change your personality. I know with my grandma she was angry because she was getting confused and hated herself.
For H's Mom you need to "turn the other cheek", use it as an opportunity and send her a card. You be the bigger person in this case. Are you po'd at her, absolutely, but with potential reconcillation with H it comes with his family good or bad.
GET OUT OF THE HOUSE. You gave your condolences via text...leave NOW. Do not let H turn this into an opportunity for himself.
I would send flowers and a card to MIL. Remember, when hubby returns, SHE will still be part of the family.
And you want to teach your kids that anyone in the FAMILY is not replaceable, no matter what is going on. And she is there grandmother, and it was their great-grandmother.
You will never regret doing the right thing.
I would send flowers and a card to MIL. Remember, when hubby returns, SHE will still be part of the family.
And you want to teach your kids that anyone in the FAMILY is not replaceable, no matter what is going on. And she is there grandmother, and it was their great-grandmother.
You will never regret doing the right thing.
ITA
Remember: Nothing is ever lost in taking the high road....and the view is to die for!
Ok gonna go get a card to send to her.
I can't leave quite yet. DS10 is trying to do some of his home school work and then we have a big History test to study for but we will break for Swim class in 1 hour. I might run out now while DD17 is here and get a card to kill some time.
I have no idea when he will come by. He just told DD17 he was going to be in the area. Its could be now all the way through the end of the day. Either way I will try to be gone or out of sight. The kids know to not let him in. When ever he has popped by like that they go out say hello and come back in. I don't see him.
Alright bought cards for all the sons and MIL. I have PB'd the 1 brother and MIL but bought a general card offering my sympathy. I have to say I wasn't feeling the love train but I'm sending them
So today H did drop by and leave the W2 under the mat and texted me that he left it. I did not respond. DS10 saw his dad and ran out to see him. This was 10 mins before we needed to leave to swim class. I waited and then had to go out the front door and yell for DS10. He came running around the front and H caught a quick glimpse as I walked in with him. But thats it.
H calls tonight and he calls about 15 minutes early. I have been trying to do a few errands and leave DS10 home with DD17 to further my plan of not being here so he can wonder(like Carol's plan). So I wave at DS10 and run out of the house like a bat out of h3ll and sit out front. Well DD17 says she heard her dad talking to DS10 I ask how was the conversation and DD17 says dad asked where you were and DS10 said IDK she left. H responds where is she is she with her boyfriend? LOLOLOL DS10 says no dad mommie loves you and he says does she and he says yes she loves you alot and she is married to you and she would never do that(drat!) and he says well maybe she is seeing someone and DS10 say no dad. I come in a while later and say I'm back and DS10 tells me the talk and I say DS10 you don't have to tell daddy I love him even tho I do, he doesn't need to know that until he makes a choice.
Anyways can't help but wonder if the sighting of me in the HOT dress has him wondering. This is good , I am hoping his view on me being very loyal is leaving.....
I have to say I wasn't feeling the love train but
Well DD17 says she heard her dad talking to DS10 I ask how was the conversation and DD17 says dad asked where you were and DS10 said IDK she left. H responds where is she is she with her boyfriend? LOLOLOL DS10 says no dad mommie loves you and he says does she and he says yes she loves you alot and she is married to you and she would never do that(drat!) and he says well maybe she is seeing someone
Someones scareddddddddddd
Hows those cellphone calls going? Got lots piling up?
I have to say I wasn't feeling the love train but
Well DD17 says she heard her dad talking to DS10 I ask how was the conversation and DD17 says dad asked where you were and DS10 said IDK she left. H responds where is she is she with her boyfriend? LOLOLOL DS10 says no dad mommie loves you and he says does she and he says yes she loves you alot and she is married to you and she would never do that(drat!) and he says well maybe she is seeing someone
Someones scareddddddddddd
Hows those cellphone calls going? Got lots piling up?
I have had a few calls. Hope3343 calls me from her CT cell phone every few days. I talked with the lovely PrincessMeggy and the ever AMAZING Johnstwin so far and of coure you lildoggie! LOL We have a week and a half till the billing cuts off so yeah still could use a few calls this week and a few calls next week.
I have to say I wasn't feeling the love train but
Well DD17 says she heard her dad talking to DS10 I ask how was the conversation and DD17 says dad asked where you were and DS10 said IDK she left. H responds where is she is she with her boyfriend? LOLOLOL DS10 says no dad mommie loves you and he says does she and he says yes she loves you alot and she is married to you and she would never do that(drat!) and he says well maybe she is seeing someone
Someones scareddddddddddd
Hows those cellphone calls going? Got lots piling up?
I have had a few calls. Hope3343 calls me from her CT cell phone every few days. I talked with the lovely PrincessMeggy and the ever AMAZING Johnstwin so far and of coure you lildoggie! LOL We have a week and a half till the billing cuts off so yeah still could use a few calls this week and a few calls next week.
I'll have to send you my info so we can exchange numbers. Get some more TEXAS calls on there, LOL!!
I don't have class again until Monday so I will just be working around home, taking care of my grandma and doing last minute trial preparations.
Bebop-a-lula-a-womp-bam-BOOM!!!
Charlotte
Just wondering, how late is too late? Do you want an email beforehand so you know to expect a call, or you want calls just whenever?
I think it is perfect what DS said. IF you were new at dating/meeting someone, you would certainly not drag your kids into it (early on, that is)....
You know that.
WH knows that.
So, let WH wonder.
Yes, I agree, what DS said was excellent. I love the fact that a 10 year old is explaining to his father that married people love each other and don't date!
Just wondering, how late is too late? Do you want an email beforehand so you know to expect a call, or you want calls just whenever?
I am in the pacific time zone I would say about 8PM-10PM my time is good to call, but if your in the east it would be pretty late for you. During the day anytime is good too.
Its good tho everyone has called spaced out so it looks really natural. LOL
Its good tho everyone has called spaced out so it looks really natural.
I can't speak for everyone else who's called you, but personally, I was NOT SPACED OUT !
I think it is perfect what DS said. IF you were new at dating/meeting someone, you would certainly not drag your kids into it (early on, that is)....
You know that.
WH knows that.
So, let WH wonder.
So ya think he's wondering? I mean I guess for him to quiz his son he would have to be right?
I have been gone for the last 2 nights so I am going to stay home tonight so it doesn't look so obvious. Then I will be gone tomorrow night. I just say I have errands to do then pop back after 15 mins. Usually run to a girlfriends and sit or run to the health food store or post office.
Ok y'all, So DD17 says she also talked to H last night and he tells her that the was at the beach and watched the sunset alone and it was b*tchen and then he was driving thru Hollywood at night and its really b*tchen and blah blah blah and it was b*tchen. She said mom it was weird he like said it 4 times. I laughed and said what?!?!? Sounds MLC to me! So after 10 minutes or so she hangs up and texts him I am eating chicken and it tastes to b*tchn LOLOLOL. Anyways she says I was telling dad that you met some people and one of the is a location scout for TV shows etc and that mom is sending pictures to have them put them on file. Isn't that really cool dad, and he says, ok and starts talking about his drive through Hollywood. DD17 says he didn't even say one word about it, he changed the subject completely. Guess he doesn't think its so cool that T2L has friends that he doesn't know....LOL
I'll have to send you my info so we can exchange numbers. Get some more TEXAS calls on there, LOL!!
I don't have class again until Monday so I will just be working around home, taking care of my grandma and doing last minute trial preparations.
Bebop-a-lula-a-womp-bam-BOOM!!!
Charlotte
Sure thing! OMG I think half the people in the board live in Texas!!! I can see why tho been there to the Dallas are several times have friends that live just outside Dallas. Texas is beautiful and Y'all have tons of shopping and restaurants! And the housing out there is really good too.
I might have been a little spaced out. Not as good as Pep, not as bad as all the people from Texas.
Kind of like a Mediocre Fred.
So......He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Mentioned doubtless thinks T2L is trying to get into the movies and be a big star. And with her new "friend", she just might do it. :MrEEk:
I have to say "i am totally spaced out", hhhhmmm like an alien these days????
Your right there are so many people here from Texas. No wonder all of those country heartbreak songs are from here. It must be something in the water. lol
diseased with OW spores
Well time for me to get ready and go out and avoid the sheriff with those dang D papers. I think I will write a song about it
Its good tho everyone has called spaced out so it looks really natural. LOL
Shh, don't tell EVERYONE, my spacey is OUR secret
Its good tho everyone has called spaced out so it looks really natural. LOL
Shh, don't tell EVERYONE, my spacey is OUR secret
Oh, I know "Spaced Out!" Gee, I haven't thought about SO since the 70s.
So I have to admit I am getting just a bit of the Pre "Single's Awareness Day" blues. Oh sorry Singles Awareness Day translation... Valentines Day.
Kids are telling Dad that they want to buy me something. I told DD17 I would love a new pair of PJ's. I say get me a gift card from Victoria's Secrets LOL
So when they ask there dad they want money for a gift from Victoria's Secrets he can let his mind wonder what I am buying! LOL.
Last year for Valentines Day, H left me a card and he actually wrote inside of it alot of really nice things. He said how much he loved me and how he was grateful that I have always been there for him through all the ups and the downs.
I cried, he never really wrote in the cards. It really touched me and he left me a mini rose bush with it that I have planted and have to look at every time I walk in the door.
Of course after D-day i found out that 2 weeks after that card the EA went to PA and "real" H was never to be seen again.
I'm sure I will be fine, I managed to half way survive my 1st Christmas season with out him. So many 1st time without him gonna be coming up, DD17 turns 18 tomorrow, he won't be here. His bday March and then Easter...Yes I will be fine but I still really dislike it.
I have planned to go to my 1st salsa lesson next Monday. Going with a friend so I can't flake out. I am forcing myself even though I do love them. Guess I'm weird.
Ok reminder Valentines day is just another day no big deal repeat after me Valentines day is just another day no big deal one more time Valentines Day is just another day no big deal
I think you should suggest to dd17 that she have a "Singles Awareness Day" party for maybe half a dozen or so of her friends. It's going to be on the weekend, so its' a great time for a party. You could get pink and white helium balloons and napkins and make pink snacks (cupcakes, punch, strawberry cream cheese on mini bagels, you get the idea). They could play some board games and watch sappy stupid movies if they wanted to. Basically a slumber party with a theme. They could even bring a gift for $10 or less, wrapped, and have a white elephant kind of a thing.
Do you think she'd like that? It would be a good distraction for you, I think, and a lot more fun than moping around the house.
sounds like a great party, wish I could attend.
My D15 is going to Valentine's day dance. That night noone will be around. That will be a tough one gulp gulp.
T2L, lets click our ruby slippers and say "I want him home, I want him home", away from the wicked witches of the east.
I think you should suggest to dd17 that she have a "Singles Awareness Day" party for maybe half a dozen or so of her friends. It's going to be on the weekend, so its' a great time for a party. You could get pink and white helium balloons and napkins and make pink snacks (cupcakes, punch, strawberry cream cheese on mini bagels, you get the idea). They could play some board games and watch sappy stupid movies if they wanted to. Basically a slumber party with a theme. They could even bring a gift for $10 or less, wrapped, and have a white elephant kind of a thing.
Do you think she'd like that? It would be a good distraction for you, I think, and a lot more fun than moping around the house.
That does sound like a fun. I think however DD17 and her BF may be going do do the Valentines thing that day. I wish I knew more single girls but my friends are either married or have boyfriends. I'll be fine, even if I have a bit of a cry I always pick up and keep going. I'll find something to distract me.
Ok reminder Valentines day is just another day no big deal repeat after me Valentines day is just another day no big deal one more time Valentines Day is just another day no big deal
Valentine's Day is waaayyy over-rated. It was fun in elementary school (at least for those who got Valentines, not so much for those who didn't) but gee, it has become SOOOOO commericalized, it's pretty much become meaningless.
I think it sets couples up for failure... invariably, one person isn't going to get what they "expect" and there's a big let down. Not too many people can afford the diamonds that are advertised on the TV commercials before Valentine's Day. It also falls within a few days of my birthday, so I've always hated that! My poor sis' birthday IS on Valentines... boy talk about pressure.
I dunno, just call me a Valentine's Day Scrooge!
Just let this one slide right on by T2L. When H comes home, you guys can celebrate Valentine's Day every day.
Here's what I'm going do on Valentines's Day. Run into a store, punch a few giant teddy bears, throw some flowers and a box of candy on the floor, then run out yelling, "That's what I think about Valentine's Day!"
Here's what I'm going do on Valentines's Day. Run into a store, punch a few giant teddy bears, throw some flowers and a box of candy on the floor, then run out yelling, "That's what I think about Valentine's Day!"
OMG Thank you so much for such a great laugh!!! If your doing that anyways, I'll be thinking of you. That was a priceless!
Here's what I'm going do on Valentines's Day. Run into a store, punch a few giant teddy bears, throw some flowers and a box of candy on the floor, then run out yelling, "That's what I think about Valentine's Day!"
Clean up on aisle four!
For what it's worth, DH and I don't celebrate VD. The commercialism and attempts to guilt us into paying for things we neither need nor want (jewelry, chocolates, dinner out, etc.) just piss us off.
Wow, I thought that would have gotten censored.
I'm so bad, look what I said on MB!! :MrEEk:
Sure thing! OMG I think half the people in the board live in Texas!!!
My dear, that's because Texas is so big it takes UP half of everything.
T2L, what are the odds that you can get someone to spend the night with your kids on VD and you go and do a one-night stayover at a nice lake cabin or B&B or somethin'? Two birds...give you a great break, and drive your WH absolutely batty!
Well planning something like that to drive him crazy since it seems last weekend has now got him asking son if I am visiting my BF LOL. Maybe a just for a few hours in the evening. IDK still mulling over things to do for Valentines Day.
Can't really take a trip yet, finances and all, H is trying to keep two residences, ours and the Sea Hag Den so there isn't a whole lot of extra. Gonna be filing for taxes so hopefully I will taking the kids on a trip. We haven't done anything but a few day trips since this all happened last April.
Funny thing is on Monday H was talking to DD17 and she telling H that someone has offered to let me use some of their time share time all I have to do is pay for travel. H says to her wow that sounds fun, I haven't been on vacation in a long time. This guys wants to go, he said it during Plan A, but sorry I am not sharing anymore. DD17 just looks at me and rolls her eyes and laughs quietly. Not my worry he's the one volunteering to give up a vacation with us. That's his choice.
Hi T2L-
When my OD(26) was in college, she and her roommates started what is now the Annual Evil Dead Valentine's Day Marathon. It certainly does make for a very "non-traditional" Valentine Celebration.
A friend of mine refers to V-day as:
"Happy Feel Like [insert euphemism for excrement] if you're single day"
Joking aside, take a trip. You deserve it.
and then you run down those aisles -- punching those teddy bears again. I would make sure I grab a few boxes of chocolate to snark them all down -- pounds of chocolate and smear the rest of the chocolate on the floor like .....
If I see that commercial where they are in St. Mark's square and the couple start seeing family members and he gives her the "forever diamond", I am going to throw a pan at my tv set and sit here and be the valentine grinch
Wow, another Kiwi stereotype of Americans blasted into space.
*note to self, 'not all Americans go over board on Valentines Day, in fact some of them hate it'.*
You are all funny
We dont do anything much although the TV tries to hype it up.
DH and I don't celebrate VD
Personally, I don't think it makes much sense for
anybody to celebrate V.D. Hard to get appropriate cards, for one thing. "I'm so glad you're here with me today...(inside) "Just don't be gonorrhea tomorrow." And the commercials? "For the girl who has everything but an STD..." I don't think it's ever going to catch on as a significant holiday, but that's just MY opinion!
tl
I was starting to think I was the only one who was reading VD as venereal disease
I never fantasied about Valentines Day since I spent the last 22 years with my H. We went to dinner usually as a family -- now all I can do not to burst out in tears as I pass the Halmark store.
Maybe it is not so much for myself and not even lasting romantic memories, but thoughts of my H spending it with the plastic pinata that it might be a longer night than New Years.
WE need to create a new un-tradition for this holiday.
Maybe I will rent the horror flick "my bloody valentine"
T2L, you don't need anywhere fancy for an overnight - just a flop house LOL!
Start thinking if you have any friends you could spend a night with sometime in the not-too-distant future, even if it's not on VD.
Let slip that she's going out for V.D. :MrEEk:
tl
T2L, you don't need anywhere fancy for an overnight - just a flop house LOL!
Start thinking if you have any friends you could spend a night with sometime in the not-too-distant future, even if it's not on VD.
I actually am trying to plan that out. Waiting on a return call from my brother. DS10 has wanted to spend a few nights with them and we had discussed it during Christmas but I just haven't gotten an answer from him yet so I just called a bit ago and left a message. I'll keep you posted.
H called for his nightly call to DS10, yup he asked where I was. Told DS10 I would be on the couch on the phone just before his dad called. I was talking to my mom so it wasn't a lie I just didn't tell DS10 who i was talking to. So he says where's mom and DS10 says she's in living room on the phone and he says yup....who is she talking to? Funny little DS10 tells me this and he says mom he asked like this(puzzled and annoyed) and I just told him IDK who she is talking to you can call her and ask her if you want to. LOLOLOLOL I purposely stayed home tonight and I purposely went on the phone too because I knew he was going to ask who I was talking to.
I guess tomorrow he is in our area again and he told DS10 ask your mom if it is ok if I come by for 5 minutes to say hello. I was going to throw a fit since its not his day but he did tell DS10 ask your mom which is actually and improvement even though he is not using the IM's to ask. Just asking and not assuming is an improvement in my book. Plus tomorrow DD17 turns 18 and I think its best for all of them to see each other even if its 5 minutes. I'll be hiding out like always. Can't be too long of a visit since it supposed to be raining tomorrow.
Anyways thanks for all the laughs on VD, it actually helped. It's true it is a set up and it is really materialistic. Everyday should be Valentines Day! So thanks guys! Man that was a riot.
I can't believe my lil girl is a grown up tomorrow. Boy time went fast. Sure does not feel like 18 years ago she was born.
G'night y'all....
How can you have an 18 year old when you look like you are 28!
Must be all of that CA sunshine. Tell DD17 that I said happy birthday.
How can you have an 18 year old when you look like you are 28!
Precocious puberty?
tl
I can't remember what your daughters plans are for college.
I think there should be some hints that maybe you will pick up and move to the college-town she goes to. That'll make him panic.
Maybe a request through IM's for him to check on kids overnight on such-and-such date, because you will be out of town...
Maybe a suggestion from DD that "mom's looking at some singles cruises". That doesn't imply that you have a new relationship (I disapprove of giving him the idea you're dating...) But it does suggest you are "moving on."
Nothing improper. Just hints.
T2L, I think it is really great for WS to see you taking charge of your life, making decisions without him, making plans without him, making a life without him.
I think it can really drive him nuts as he begins to wonder about you and your "new life".
I have a word of caution, though. This is a fine line you walk for two reasons.
First, if your actions convince him that there is an OM, he may just give up. tst and I talked about this, and he said if he had known I was involved with someone else, he probably would not have even hinted to me about reconciliation. He said he would have thought it was too late.
Secondly, as you begin to live this "new life", new people will enter into it. Embracing the moving on mentality makes you more vulnerable to letting someone else meet ENs than you may realize.
In addition, I see you mentally breaking Plan B, as well as physically, a bit more than might be good for you. You are now concentrated on him and how he will react to this or that or the other (drama).
With that said, I AM all for giving him a taste of life without T2L.
So that was the fine print warning on the pack of "new life".
Take care of yourself first.
YES YES YES YES YES
What SMB just said!!!!
Let him worry, but do NOT give him the impression that there is an OM. Do NOT intentionally deceive him. Just do normal honest things and let him jump to his own conclusions.
Also, take it s-l-o-w-l-y. This is a metamorphosis, not a monster campaign for instant results. He has to feel the changes are gradual and permanent, not a temporary insanity knee-jerk behavior.
Maybe I will rent the horror flick "my bloody valentine"
Or listen to
Good Charlotte's My Bloody Valentine - maybe even more appropriate.
(Sorry, can't get to a link of the real song here at work. It's awesome, though.)
Lexxy, I've told my D18 that I'm getting an apartment in the town she's going to college to next fall. She just rolls her eyes and goes "Mooooom!" lol. But I can tell she's a little afraid I'm telling the truth!
I think it would be a great idea to throw out that you might move to her college town.
YES YES YES YES YES
What SMB just said!!!!
Let him worry, but do NOT give him the impression that there is an OM. Do NOT intentionally deceive him. Just do normal honest things and let him jump to his own conclusions.
Also, take it s-l-o-w-l-y. This is a metamorphosis, not a monster campaign for instant results. He has to feel the changes are gradual and permanent, not a temporary insanity knee-jerk behavior.
Yes the calls have been trickling in at a slow pace so it doesn't seem obvious. If asked it can be said possibly that they are friends of Lildoggie, which they are LOL, and that we are just talking to arrange when she comes out to the states.
Ok and Yes I do understand what you are saying about not letting him feel there is another man in the picture. I think he can make his own assumptions.
He already has T2L and the persistent questions to your kids show that he is feeling uneasy about it. As they say, you don't know what you've lost until it's gone. He has a big imagination and would be picturing you in his deceitful shoes instead of seeing the innocence of it all.
Don't worry about Valentine's day. It's just Saturday. If you can stay away from the hype it would be a good idea. Rent a movie and paint your toenails and take a bath. It's just another Saturday!
I have unfortunately spent 2 other Valentine's Days since being with my H as a BS. They haven't been consecutive years, so I only celebrate every second year anyway. LOL. Buy yourself some flowers and don't worry about bluffing your WH. He will assume you'll be getting a lot more than flowers anyway.
My family is all going to be away and it will just be me and the kids at home. They are in bed by 7:30pm so I hope to stay away from the Valentine's Day tv-movies and just relax. WH has a gig on the night before and the night after with OW. It's going to be a [censored] weekend for me.
Sorry to TJ. I got carried away!
V. Day isnt a big deal for us.
You know why???
Love is MORE than just a day
Hey T2L, where are you. Tooling around in circles and drinking lots of coffee today? take care.
Oh sorry, not much new to report. No contact since all the last info. Still trying to be gone in the evenings a few times a week so he doesn't expect me home every night. 2nd PB letter done, per suggestions. Still deciding on when to give. Talking things over with IM's about a few other things.
Moved DS10 into the bedroom that is right next to mine. He said a few days ago that he would sleep in his room if I moved him so we started it. We just have to take the outer framed of his bed apart. Kids and I tried to find the socket wrench to take it apart and couldn't find it. DD18 asked him if he took it and he said yes so he will drop it off tomorrow during his visit.
So I think tonight DS10 may be sleeping in his bed...yipeee! I don't mind him being in my bed the last 9 months its just I have a huge pillow in the middle to protect me from being smashed and beaten to death by a huge 10 year old. He looks me in the eyes and weighs more than me. Yes it is a little large for a 10 year old. Doctors said he's at 90% for his age, meaning he is 90% bigger than all kids his age. He's not obese either. He has a little bit of a belly but he's just a huge kids.
I Am really looking forward to having the whole king size bed all to myself.
King sized???
I have been thinking about the VD thing. How about donating blood. Thats as close to the heart as you can get and it doesnt need a reciprocal gift as you will get it from the feel good you will get from doing something nice.
I would be happy to donate blood from H and the OW,,,buckets.
Yeah.
I know that feeling.
Well from OW anyway.
OH Man that is Hilarious! But I would feel bad giving blood from a Sea Hag, the person on the receiving end might get warts or grow a snake tongue or something LOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Ok so tonight I leave to get gas in my car just before H calls kids. I tell DD18 going to get coffee and gas in my car. So H calls at 8:15 like normal. DD18 answers phone 1st. She says Hi dad, and H says whatcha doing? DD18 says babysitting for mom before I go out later. H says whaaaaattt?!?! He says where is your mom? DD18 says she's out getting coffee with friend. And he says who did she go with? Well if you haven't guessed already DD18 loves taunting her dad. So her response to who did she go with was a "yaaaaawn" and man I'm tired. And H says again WHO DID SHE GO WITH?!?! DD18 snaps at him and says I don't know somebody! And he says Oh. Then He says that he is staying at his mom's tonight, not at the Sea Hag's Den. I found it a little odd. I do however know that he had to pick up his check today and its in that city but usually as far as I knew he went home to their place.
He talks to DS10 a bit I guess and then hangs up. DD18 says yeah he sounded really bothered by you being gone. LOL
On Thursday DS10 had asked DD18 if mom had a BF since dad asked. DD18 told H that DS10 had asked her. He said well I only asked since DS10 said she was on the phone long distance the other night. LOL DD18 says dad I don't "think" mom has a BF, I "think" she would tell me. So both his kids told him mom doesn't have a BF. I still think it bothers him that I am out. Funny thing is ya wanna know what he told me right after dday. I think it was about a month after. He says why don't you leave and go do things like other girls at night? LOLOL I tell him that I do my errands and things during the day so I can be home with you guys. i am guess he compared me to the OW and her behaviors. She must be out at nights. I just loved being at home when the whole family got home. Well buddy how do you like it now? T2L is out at night and it seems you may not like it. Of course It's stupid stuff like getting gas for my car and going to the post office so I don't feel bad.
Anyways he is coming to visit with kids tomorrow, guess he's taking them to get coffee. His visits are really hard because he lives an hour away and he has a company vehicle that he really isn't supposed to put anyone in so alot of the time he meets the kids at a coffee shop or at a park. Not my prob. that's a choice.
Anyways, think I will manage to be gone when he comes to pick up kiddos.
But have to say that seeing him does make me miss him a bit but no biggie I never stopped missing him....
G'night y'all....
Okay had to come back on and tell you this....So I decided on mopping my floor before I go to bed...I know I'm crazy...
Earlier DD18 talked to H and when she was done DS10 talked. So I was just filling up my sink a few minutes ago and DS10 plops up on top of the counter and say hey mom, do you think something is going on with dad and the Sea Hag? I say IDK DS10 why? He says well dad sounded kinda sad and dad told me that he was staying at grandmas alone tonight. I say yeah your sister told me. He says i think something is going on and I asked dad.
I said what? He said I asked dad. I said well what did you say DS10? He said I said, dad are you okay is something wrong with you and ummm uhhh and he says his dads answer was weird. He said dad said, mmmmmmm. Then DS10 said dad really didn't say anything so I said so what time you coming tomorrow? DS10 it was kind a weird mom.
I swear DS10 cracks me up. The stuff that flies out of his little mouth is priceless and always catches me off guard LMAO!
T2L:
I just happened to read your post.
I want to encourage you NOT to make too much of your WH's every move.
In fact, I would recommend to TRY to put him out of your mind as much as possible while in PLAN B...
I guess it must be hard with so much of his involvement with your children.
I've come to really understand my H's actions during his affair from talking to him about how it WAS then.
Your WH is following the SAME SCRIPT...it must be scripted somewhere..lot of THEM follow the same pattern.
The RELATIONSHIP with the OW is SICK..it is an ADDICTION..so they play all sorts of games with each other that we can't possibly understand or don't want to understand what a relationship like THAT is like. I'm not sure if it's done on purpose or not. Sometimes maybe it is..sometimes not..but what happens is that they BREAK UP TO MAKE UP..keep DRAMA going to keep the FIRE going...it doesn't mean there's an impending breakup..although there will EVENTUALLY be a TRAGIC ENDING..hopefully YOU will still be around to help pick up HIS PIECES that are left....
I'm able to talk about it with him when we're looking at a television show or even talking about celebrities on the news..I will Ooooh and Ahhh about some sort of sick occurrence and just the other day he said something like..."I know (meaning from experience) you can do all sorts of CRAZY things when you are leading that kind of life"....YUCK...
I was wondering the same thing, Mimi. My WH's life since the A has been nothing but drama. And from what I understand, OW is the classic drama queen with diva tendencies, suicide threats, ex-husband hysterics, racially mixed kids, "live for the moment" attitude, etc. Now he's chosen OW and D to get "closure" from boring, consistent, good, predictable me.
But is the "drama" what fuels the A? Both T2L and I have had long-term M's that were relatively boring. Boring in a good way -- routine, not unusual, going with the flow with raising kids, maintaining a home, being a family, feeling stable in our marriages, always putting our family first.
I think our WHs set out to liven things up a bit with A during MLC. My WH told his IC that he's lived his life like he golfs with his swings down the middle of the fairway. And now he's ready to mix it up a bit.
If we BS added more drama to our lives, would that in any way cause our WHs to want to come back?
Holy:
I think we fit the same scenario. We've been married 33 years in July and I think my H had a MLC.
My WH's life since the A has been nothing but drama. And from what I understand, OW is the classic drama queen with diva tendencies, suicide threats, ex-husband hysterics, racially mixed kids, "live for the moment" attitude, etc.
SAME TYPE of OW in my case..ALMOST EXACTLY...
I think these kinda women go after men like our husbands when they are vulnerable..THEY ARE GOOD AT IT..my H called it her "MODE OF SURVIVAL"...After the affair was over, he said.."She's moved on.."and he seemed almost certain..that's how come she told him that's what I was doing and I had to make clear that although I wasn't WAITING, I certainly was not DATING..since I was/am a WIFEY sort of person and NOT like her..she didn't even want to MARRY him and made that clear..she just wanted his TIME and MONEY...or whatever he could BUY for her...in other words, HO...YOUNG HO..at that..17 years younger...
I'll speak for myself...I had stopped meeting my H's top emotional needs which made him VULNERABLE to such outside influences..you know, like Adam in the GARDEN OF EDEN..tempted by EVIL FORCES...KWIM????
I think our WHs set out to liven things up a bit with A during MLC. My WH told his IC that he's lived his life like he golfs with his swings down the middle of the fairway. And now he's ready to mix it up a bit.
So let's look at this differently...I failed at doing MY PART in keeping the MARRIAGE EXCITING..they want an exciting MARRIAGE..NOT the DRAMA that they find themselves in once involved in the affair...the OW gives the PRETENSE of HEALTHY EXCITEMENT that once was present in the relationship that he had with YOU...whereas her stuff ends up being CRAZY and THEY are CAUGHT UP in it..become ADDICTED and cant' get away from it...MAKE SENSE?
Now my H and I have lots of HEALTHY FUN and EXCITEMENT again..not the DRAMA..yes..the DRAMA that FUELED the AFFAIR...those types THRIVE on DRAMA...I guess...Who knows what it is exactly?
It's SICK..your goal is not to have a relationship like THEIRS...the goal is an IMPROVED MARRIAGE in which you are meeting your H's PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS...the OW has given AN ILLUSION/PRETENSE/FANTASY that she can do this...by putting on DRAMATIC PERFORMANCES..Ahhh..that's what it is..DRAMATIC PERFORMANCES..
Mimi I am not familiar with you thread, maybe you could bump it or post the link here. Is it on Ace's recovery thread(the new one)?
Also did you do a Plan B and if so how long did it last?
I totally agree, Mimi. Healthy drama in a marriage and family as opposed to crazy drama in A.
But my WH has filed for D and I'm Plan Bing. What do you suggest I do? I know about being patient, working on myself, keeping the family as stable as possible. But what else?
Do you think Will WH get sick of the crazy A drama before D is done?
Major drama pending is that I've discovered that WH has maxed out our home equity line spending frivoulously on impressing OW. Reality of situation has not yet set in because he's yet to have to account for this money. According to attorney, because it is on the home, and the home is an asset that will need to be divided during D, the equity line will also need to be accounted for.
Mimi -- when I say drama -- WH is a conservative banker. We've never been in debt. He's spent tons of money on her. And that money is no longer accessible because he's maxed it out.
Will that help end A?
It's on ACE's thread somewhere...
9 months between D Day and Recovery...
Plan A for about 6 months and Plan B for 3 months..
There was a False Recovery or two in there somewhere...YUCK...
Been recovered since August 2003....
EXTREMELY HAPPY and CLOSE and IN LOVE..NOW...
Holy..
...the affair resulted in lots of financial problems for us, too..being that it's an ADDICTION..it's SELF-DESTRUCTIVE...
Is there any way to stall your divorce?
Time is your friend...
Hi T2L,
Just in case you were wondering, I can vouch that Mimi is a much-loved and wise vet around here.
Hi T2L,
Just in case you were wondering, I can vouch that Mimi is a much-loved and wise vet around here.
Awe thanks Jayney! I have seen Mimi's name here a knew she was a VET so i really appreciate her input.
I like knowing the stats on the marital recovery side I guess to compare to, which I am sure is probably not a good idea because each WS is on there own clock. But it does helps to know, at least while I'm in Plan B how long each person was in Plan B until there spouse came home.
Sorry, T2L. Don't mean to t/j, but I think Mimi's advice is beneficial to us both.
Mimi:
You're comment about "moving on" is RIGHT on. WH has told numerous people that I'll "get over this" and move on with someone else. He's even comparing me to my sister.
Her husband had on-going A and eventually they D. He left behind their DD who was in high school at the time. By "left behind" I mean that he only sees her for a few minutes each year to give her a check as she goes off to college. Niece has ZERO relationship with her dad by her choice.
See niece was disgusted by her father's A and the impact it had on her mom. She confided in her uncle, WH, how hard this was on her. WH consoled her and told her that he could never do this to me or our kids. Fast forward and -- you guessed it -- WH does the same thing. And WH says he understands how this can happen -- and he will never judge anyone for doing this again.
My sis and niece went through he!! for years with A and then D. Sister was put in hospital for dehydration. She's been through hours of counseling, meds, you name it. She's suffered serious mental damage because of the breakup of her M and family.
Now -- 3 years later -- she's dating an old school friend who's wife died unexpectedly 7 years ago leaving him a widow with a baby. Sister is enjoying this healthy relationship where the guy is honest, family oriented, wealthy, kind, etc. WITHOUT baggage of ex-wives. And she's happy.
WH sees me as moving on to find a similar man who will treat me well and end any financial difficulties I might face with the D.
So he wants me to "move on" like my sister has or "move on" like OW has when her marriages have ended.
I'm not the "moving on" kind. Like T2L, we've been with our WH for ever. T2L since age 14 and me since age 15. We only know our Hs. We believe in being married for life.
Yes, I plan on delaying D as long as possible. Anything else? Or does WH just have to figure it out for himself?
man
OH man this WH positively HATES plan B
Your dog sounds nice !
Hang in there .... you are driving him nutz!
hh & T2L, I think that the WS tell us to move on is so that they will carry less guilt.
They get to move on in their lives with a new partner and share expenses while we have the kids and struggle to make ends meet.
I told my H I had moved on but it did not mean that I had to "date someone" to move on.
Well today is H's day to visit kids. He got to the house about 1 o'clock and picked up DS10 for lunch. I was out doing errands, DD18 said dad wants to know if you want a sandwich too. I say yes and tell her what kind thinking he will send it with DS10 when they are done eating. DS10 comes in and hands the sandwiches to us and says dad wants to know if we can eat it in the...you guessed it LOL....the garage. He is told thank you for the sandwiches and because DS10 is in the house so long trying to get an answer I guess he gets the idea and says he will meet DS10 at the park behind the house.
The kids go back there and take the dogs and play for a few hours. Well I figure he would go home once the visit is done. Well I am baking chocolate chip cookies and notice that the kids are in the driveway and then across walks H! He is now in my driveway playing with my kids....LOL...Okay I am guessing this is an improvement of hanging out in the garage....back later....
T2L, not to rain on your parade, but did you not tell him to meet your kids somewhere else, to not park his car in front of your house, and to not be anywhere near your house? How is this progress? It just looks to me like he is getting to pretend he is still living at home, and that he is ignoring your feelings by not caring if any of this hurts you. He asks, so what? You already told him not to come around. Why are you letting him? Did you alter your Plan B letter to say it's ok to come around? If not, you need to stop giving him his home fix.
T2L, sneak out the backdoor and run. Time to disappear. H is looking for his daily fix and seems like he is trying to wear you down.
Keep us posted.
Call a friend, arrange to meet them for coffee, then txt DD18 that you're gonna be gone a couple of hours.
T2L,
IMVHO, I think you are allowing this game to continue because you like the fix you are getting as well. I know you want this all to just end, but I don't consider it healthy to allow H to continue to disrespectfully ignore your boundaries.
You are doing yourself and your kids a disservice by allowing confusion to reign at this point. You had a valuable break last week in your Plan B, but it cannot continue. It should have been a quick break followed by an immediate return to Plan B.
Agree with TST! As long as he gets his fix, the affair will be prolonged...BTDT..the more I enabled my H's affair..by relieving his pain by allowing him to get "a fix" from ME..the more he fell "in love" with the OW...YUCK...
Okay, he is gone. He was in driveway for 30 minutes and he left.
I completely understand and value all your input everyone. I do agree he is getting a fix being around the family and home.
I am looking into ways to tighten up the PB on my end. He was never actually told to not park in my driveway. When he visits he does not park in the driveway but in the street in front of the house.
I never directly told H to go away I just told the
kids to meet dad at another park instead of the one behind the house. So the kids would say hey dad lets go to this park instead. I am fortunate however that H has not pushed the issue to have custody or make the kids stay over at the Sea Hag Den or as Neak so cleverly put it the Barf Shack. I am fortunate enough to have H now following his days to visit and having the kids get my permission from me for any additional visits and this is all done with out any legal paperwork. I would rather see his dumb car in the street than have my kids go there. I do NOT want my children going to the Sea Hag Den. But Yes I can look into some more ways to tighten up.
Asking him to get off the property would be a huge LB and it would be very hard for my children to see, probably heartbreaking actually. DS10 is so very happy to be in contact with his dad again and really looks forward to the visits. I can however, when it happens, stay out of sight. And really he hasn't done that very much in the last 3 months. I would rather have the Sea Hag LB'ing and pressure him and tighten things on my end and in my control with out LB'ing and pressuring. He knows my character. I am polite and considerate of others, and even when others are ugly I don't change.
It makes it a bit harder when you have a 10 year old son begging you to eat a sandwich with his dad in the garage. I explained to DS10 that I cannot let dad into the garage to eat the sandwich's because when dad comes in its like letting Sea Hag in too. He knows, but its so very hard on him, he wants his daddy back. He wants to ask his dad to come home but he is afraid to so he pressures me instead.
The 2nd PBL will be going out probably just after Valentines Day.
But thanks again to everyone who pops on, I know your heart is for me and in my best interest and I appreciate y'all!
He knows, but its so very hard on him, he wants his daddy back.
I know you mean well, but have you considered that the longer you let H come by whenever he feels like it - WITHOUT using the IMs - the LONGER it will take before your lovely D10 gets his dad back?
By giving your son a quick fix of his dad, you are PROLONGING his pain.
I'm sorry, but your excuses are WAAAAAY wrong. EVERY single person is telling you so, and all you keep doing is making excuses for not doing the right thing.
What good has your change in plans done, except to allow you to know your H comes around the house, and allow your son and daughter get HOUR-LONG fixes of their dad. When if you would follow Plan B, he would have made a decision by now and he would either be back home or in his own place where the kids could visit like real children.
I'm sorry, T2L, but this is all wrong. Your weakness is hurting your entire family.
By giving your son a quick fix of his dad, you are PROLONGING his pain.
You might want to rethink this comment.
What good has your change in plans done, except to allow you to know your H comes around the house, and allow your son and daughter get HOUR-LONG fixes of their dad. When if you would follow Plan B, he would have made a decision by now and he would either be back home or in his own place where the kids could visit like real children.
Catperson, I enjoy reading your posts. You show amazing insight and usually come up with new angles I hadn't considered. I have to disagree with you on this, though.
The children are entitled to visit their father and NEED to visit their father. This isn't an "hour long fix", it's visitation which is a good thing and should be encouraged.
Also, we have no way of knowing what might have happened if T2L had done her Plan B differently. Nobody can say if she'd done X, he'd be home.
She really has no right to keep him from the home. It's HIS home too and legally he could enter if he so desired. She's staying out of sight as much as possible and he's pretending to respect her boundaries while pushing them to see if she'll give. I don't know that she really *can* do much other than ask him not to contact her. She's lucky he respects her desire for him to stay out of the house or out of the garage, and to visit only on certain days.
I do agree that her Plan B is not dark. She knows way too much about what he's doing and he knows too much about her. But with children 18 and 10 news of activities, conversations, and attitudes is going to leak. I'm not sure how that could be handled while encouraging interaction between WH and the kids.
I wish she could be darker but I'm not sure how it could be accomplished.
I agree, Turtle.
I think that things are going as well as can be expected at this point, and am delighted that WH has resumed visiting the kids again. That's not a fix - that's a vital part of life no matter whether there's a R or not.
Also, the idea of taking them to the Barf Shack, the only other likely option for WH, is unthinkable. CA is not a state that would even consider keeping the kids away from the Hag, and T2L is so blessed that so far he hasn't tried to push that.
As I already told T2L, she needs to do all she can to tighten up her PB when he visits. But I would far FAR rather have him parked out on the street in front of the house, and for T2L to have to do some creative work to keep dark, than to have him start pushing to have them overnight at the Lust Lair.
He is going to continue to try and get his fixes - both of T2L and the inside of the house. Clearly, he's addicted to the garages, too, lol. IMO, that is the main line that needs to be held. Keep him on the outside, and I think that any damages from house fixes will be minimal. And even if there is a delay in the end of the A because of the very small outside house fixes, much better to have that than to subject the kids to his other legal alternative.
T, do you suppose you could train your dogs to bite him? Oh, that might be an LB...
Try - There are some key points here - he has visitation with his children, but you should not be giving him YOUR sandwich order - that allows him to meet an emotional need and that is the fix YOU can prevent.
Also - when your children mention that they talked with him about a Valentines gift - you should teach them that "Daddy needs to think of these things on his own and I don't want any "gifts" from him until he comes home - and ends all contact with SeaHag!"
There is much more you can do to stop him from getting a release on his guilt valve. Stop receiving ANYTHING from him that doesn't go to the care of the home his children live in. Period.
I know you mean well, but have you considered that the longer you let H come by whenever he feels like it - WITHOUT using the IMs - the LONGER it will take before your lovely D10 gets his dad back?{
Ello Luv!
I see what you are saying , makes a lot of sense, but my H will not use the IM's. My IM's are aware of it but nevertheless I still send visitation schedules and financial schedules and any other information "TO" him THROUGH the IM channels.
I cannot force an individual to use the IM's BUT I can however choose to use them on my end, in my control. Plan B says to use them so I am. It doesn't however say in the book to force them too. You see all one can do is follow the best they can and as closely as they can to follow the book. I was told today by a wise bird to do the best you can and don't get stuck on things when they don't go as expected. All WS's are the same and all stories are going to vary a little here and there. I follow as best I can to the Plan. I dont condemn myself if its not perfect and keep going right back where I left off. Not excuses I just give myself grace so I can do this as long as I can. I have no excuses. I am doing my best and following my heart in what I feel needs to be done. I have in no way give Mr. T2L me on a silver platter. He basically has no access to me, other than the planned sink fixing. He cannot come in my home although I did have 1 issue and it was completely my fault for not telling DS10 but now he knows.
I feel to choose my battles wisely and I think that the IM issue is not the battle that is most important to me. I use them. He is getting his schedules and abiding by them. He is depositing the finances and bring me W-2's and things of that nature when he was notified by through the IM's of those issues. He is cooperating with whatever is asked through the IM's he's just not saying OK to them. I have noticed that some WS use the IM's and some do not. Mine does not, but that's not a big surprise to me LOL. I actually expected it.
Most women have to get LSA's, their kids have to go to the OW/OM place, they get no money or very little but I do not. H has given me money to stay in the home, keeps us on the insurance, and has said so far he will not make kids go to their place. I see that as pretty fortunate.
By giving your son a quick fix of his dad, you are PROLONGING his pain.
My son MUST see his father on his visit days. He has experienced much anxiety, sadness and fear because of this and when he sees his father he does much better. He has been in touch with his father again and now last night he made it 3/4 of the night in his own bed. I don't feel his visits are fixes. I will not stop DS10 from seeing his dad. I am not apart of their visits. And unfortunately the park behind the house is public too. Can't make him leave there either. If they need to meet in the park to visit fine, but DS10 MUST see his father and DS10 absolutely hates the SEA HAG and has begged me to make sure he does not have to go there. What would any mother answer to that? I said I will do everything in my power son. Whats in my power is to allow visits behind the park so they can see each other and H does not push to get DS10 to spend weekends in the Sea Hag Den. State of Cali won't help me a bit there.
I'm sorry, but your excuses are WAAAAAY wrong. EVERY single person is telling you so, and all you keep doing is making excuses for not doing the right thing.
I have no excuses, I listen to all the input, pray about it, weight it out, sometimes get counsel and then go with my gut feeling on what to do. I guess they probably do sound like excuses, but they are choices actually and hopefully you will all still accept and respect me even through it. This is what I feel. I'm just gonna throw it out at y'all and hope you'll still love me and post anyways. SAA is the framework of recovering the marriage. Its a stinking awesome book from beginning to end. It makes perfect sense and there is no other book i know that can get you from start to finish. Its brilliant. But I also feel like CarolH's thread she used SAA and implemented within that also Divorce Remedy. It worked, but it was not to a "T" SAA. I know that God uses the simple things to confound the wise. I am following my heart believing God is using this forum, my IM's and my own heart to guide me. I cannot be so stiffed neck that God cannot even deviate me to add something new to recover my marriage. My H was a good man, he is lost and I'm gonna try my best to do what I can. I am not making independent decisions. I am praying, I talk with my IM's, I listen to you all and on occasion I mention it to my pastor. SAA is the framework, yes it should be followed as close as possible with just a little room for God too.
What good has your change in plans done, except to allow you to know your H comes around the house, and allow your son and daughter get HOUR-LONG fixes of their dad. When if you would follow Plan B, he would have made a decision by now and he would either be back home or in his own place where the kids could visit like real children.
I'm sorry, T2L, but this is all wrong. Your weakness is hurting your entire family.
Weakness is not my forte....LOL I am a person of strength and so is my H. I know just way to use my strength. Its not always what seems strength. Sometimes holding your peace is strength. Sometimes love is strength. I guess its just the way you may view it. My H knows its a new day and he cannot just walk in. He knows I will not take him back or let him spend the night with out the OW out of the picture. He knows this and weakness could have never given him that picture. Son told me a bit ago that dad said it was ok if mom didn't want to let me in we will just go to the park. Now he could have gotten nasty but he didn't he cheerfully suggested to meet in the park.
Yes I do see that I am getting feedback that H is getting a fix by being around the house. I refuse to go out and throw him off my property in front of my children. My H has so far agreed to not bring the kids around the Sea Hag. The only way for him to visit is to meet them locally here and the other problem is he has no personal car, he gave it to me. So when he visits he drives him company vehicle and the kids are not really allowed in that vehicle so that is why they meet alot of the time in the park behind the house or IF DD18 is here she will drive the both of them to a different location. So if he parks in the street, which is public property BTW, It doesn't bother me as much as it did previously as long as he does not go to the garage and come in then its fine. He's outside and I'm away where he has no access to me.
I don't know that if I had done anything differently if H would have come back already. Actually I think that he would not have. There are some things aside of the affair that he needs to work through and schoolbus nailed it on what she said and her suggestion to a 2nd PLB. This PBL will different from the last and will be almost verbatim of what schoolbus has said. I think all in all I have done ok. Not perfect but H really has not had much access to me in 3 months. 2 occasions and I stayed gone or out of access even then.
I keep going and working the plan the best I can.
But I love love love y'all!
T2L,
Reading through your thread, I think you did a SPOT ON plan A and your plan B is as good it can be with children involved. One area that I don't quite agree with is the dark, dark plan B when children are under middle school age or so. To do a dark plan, you need to cut off all contact and with young kids, I think it is next to impossible without jeopardizing the BS position in divorce proceedings.
I think you've done a great job walking the line with DS10 by trying to sheild him from Sea Hag yet still letting your WS be a part of his life. I'm thinking your husband's actions are starting to show he's not commited to Sea Hag in the long term. I think if he was, he would have started pushing for overnight visitations and starting to integrate her into DS10 life. Plus, he's still supporting you financially. To me, if he was serious about walking away for good, he would have done more to separate him from you as well as push for overnight visitations.
Yep, I agree.
And this PB will just keep getting tighter. Each time he does succeed in getting a glimpse that wasn't planned - unlike the sink thingy, or if something happens like DS inviting him into the garage, it's just taken care of so it doesn't happen again.
There will be no more sammiches, lol, and every effort will be made to be securely out of sight at the beginnning and end of the visits. The rest will take care of itself with time.
Also, the VD
presents the kids were discussing with their dad were what they wanted to give her. Since T2L is a SAHM, she and the kids are currently dependent on WH for every penny. They can't get her a present for anything at this point, without getting the money from him. This was not about WH getting her a present, but about him loosening his purse so the kids could get something.
By giving your son a quick fix of his dad, you are PROLONGING his pain.
You might want to rethink this comment.
Why?
T2L set up very adequate visitation schedules for the kids to see their dad, much more generous than they'd get in a typical divorce decree. Had WH chosen to follow it, and had T2L stuck to it, the kids would be feeling very secure knowing the times and days and hours they would get to see their dad. They would not be feeling like just a pawn in their parents' power struggle.
This way, it is a day to day free for all on when dad feels like coming to this side of town, when he feels like calling the kids, and it's all done on his terms. Just like he wanted last fall when she went dark. She has basically regressed to give him exactly what he wanted - the ability to call the kids whenever he wants, the ability to see them whenever he wants, and the ability to see them INSIDE THE HOUSE! Because he does exactly what he did pre-D day - nudge, nudge, nudge, one give-in at a time, until he has it set up exactly the way he wants it. Because he knows T2L's a pushover and he knows she will put her kids' happiness ahead of her own. So bottom line, he has won. He gets to scr&w Toad; he gets his fix of wife by geting to hang around the house once again; and he gets to see his kids at his desire - or
not - resulting in his son's prolonged and increasing stress and self-loathing. The way it is now, it is back to total WH control, and the kids are once again at his mercy. If he's mad, he ignores the kids. If he's getting what he wants (eating inside the house, parking in front of the house, shopping in the garage...), the kids get to see him more because he's reveling in his success.
Sure, D10 may be feeling a little better right now, but at what cost? Now, T2L is obligated to keep keeping WH happy, because if she doesn't, he stops calling the kids, and D10 blames her first, and then blames himself. (I'm not good enough for dad to want to keep seeing me)
So in the long run, WH has NO reason to leave Toad. So D10 will now be stuck forever in the 'please dad' limbo, and it is becoming part of his core being - Because I have no control and I don't get what I want unless I keep the people I love happy, I will never find happiness in life unless I give up who I AM.
I promise you, T2L, this is what your son has learned. I watched it happen to my brother. And me. It sucks. Your son learned to lie so as to not have to face his dad when he was hurting, because he was afraid his dad would leave HIM, TOO, like he did you, if he displeased his dad. So he'd rather have his sister lie for him than tell his dad the truth - that he didn't like what his dad was doing.
NOW, he has learned that as long as he keeps making things good with his dad - and giving him whatever he wants (visitations HIS way, not asking for anything, etc.), he gets his dad; if he doesn't, he doesn't get his dad. This unstructured visitation schedule, and the slipping of your boundaries day by day, are killing your son's belief in doing things the right way.
Now, T2L is obligated to keep keeping WH happy
WH is not happy. Not by a long shot.
I think T2L is doing an amazing job. And I think her kids are doing a great job reminding Mr. T2L that his role is back in the home as a H and F.
He misses this!
And I'm envious since my WH wants nothing to do with me or the kids or our house. He wants closure from us all.
But Holy, T2L's husband has abandoned his wife and children for another woman..the same as yours...he is giving his family CRUMBS..whereby they deserve a FEAST..I, too, remember holding on to my H's CRUMBS..I wish I had not..IMO, it's the same or worse as NOTHING AT ALL..
I came to the point of trying to pretend that my H did not exist..that was best for ME...and the point of PLAN B, IMO...
I don't think we should clap or be happy for T2L about what her H is doing..all BULLCRAP..him trying to use her to make his affair easier for HIM...
The Australian family courts have had new laws passed and they are having a field day "appeasing" everyone and acting on behalf of the children.
The current generic order sees the kids spend 7 days with mum and 7 days with dad on an even rotation, through holidays, school and life.
The family courts are currently filled with desperate parents trying to put their children first and the courts trying to prove that they are fair to the children by splitting the care evenly between parents, even when it is not appropriate.
I don't know what laws apply to you T2L, but I agree 100% that the relationship that your children form with their dad is paramount to their happiness in life. They may not have been the perfect husbands, but when the WH tries to be a great dad and the kids so desperately need that contact, the BS should compromise.
WS's twist it so Plan B looks like you are keeping the kids away from them and preventing their relationship. In the end, I was the one that was made to feel selfish for denying my WH access to the children.
My situation is not the same, I have 2 kids DD3 and DS1 and I have been on Plan C
WH is making a huge effort to see the kids and knows he must be respectful of me. I choose to leave the house when he visits so that they can spend time together but he doesn't get his fix of me.
Anyway, the point is that compromise needs to be part of the plan. How can a mother justify keeping children from a loving father. I know that they are not loving husbands, but when they actively want to be there for the kids, what choice is there that does not sound like selfishness? The recovery of my marriage should not be more important than my children knowing and loving their father. I have a preference for marriage, but I will not put my needs first. My WH is not enjoying his role as part-time dad. He is far from happy in life but the choice to change is up to him. I cannot control my H or my children or anyone else, I can only control me.
What good has your change in plans done, except to allow you to know your H comes around the house, and allow your son and daughter get HOUR-LONG fixes of their dad. When if you would follow Plan B, he would have made a decision by now and he would either be back home or in his own place where the kids could visit like real children.
Catperson, I enjoy reading your posts. You show amazing insight and usually come up with new angles I hadn't considered. I have to disagree with you on this, though.
The children are entitled to visit their father and NEED to visit their father. This isn't an "hour long fix", it's visitation which is a good thing and should be encouraged.
Also, we have no way of knowing what might have happened if T2L had done her Plan B differently. Nobody can say if she'd done X, he'd be home.
She really has no right to keep him from the home. It's HIS home too and legally he could enter if he so desired. She's staying out of sight as much as possible and he's pretending to respect her boundaries while pushing them to see if she'll give. I don't know that she really *can* do much other than ask him not to contact her. She's lucky he respects her desire for him to stay out of the house or out of the garage, and to visit only on certain days.
I do agree that her Plan B is not dark. She knows way too much about what he's doing and he knows too much about her. But with children 18 and 10 news of activities, conversations, and attitudes is going to leak. I'm not sure how that could be handled while encouraging interaction between WH and the kids.
I wish she could be darker but I'm not sure how it could be accomplished.
It could be accomplished by her running a
consistent Plan B; by refusing to bend on the Plan B rules. It could be accomplished by her showing her kids she has to be firm about this to get SOME SORT of decision from him, and then therefore repeating the mantra - we have to stick to this plan so he sees the benefit of choosing his family first.
If you read my posts like you say, you'll see I have NEVER said he shouldn't see his kids. That's ridiculous. I said that by allowing him to trample all over her wishes, and the wisdom of Plan B, the time he DOES spend with his kids is not as beneficial as it seems because it allows him to cake-eat and lets him go ever longer without making a decision. PLus, every time he sees them is ONE MORE TIME he leaves them and goes home to another woman without making a decision.
THAT is what is detrimental to his kids. What I
actually said was that following the plan and not letting him chip away at it would make it more likely that he will make a
decision one way or another. Of course he may choose to divorce; most of them do. But he's not doing that. He's not coming back either.
Don't you think that this hurts the kids more than if he were to make a decision? At least if they divorce, his kids will know what's what; what the future is; that he has made a decision about their mother (living with her or not), and that whether he comes or goes has nothing to do with how well they please their father. That is what is hurting the kids.
That and the fact that his seeing them is now COMPLETELY up to him - when, where, and how. At least if she stood to the Plan B and used the mods, it would take away some of the instability for the kids' sakes.
Frankly, I think they'd all be better off if he would just go ahead and divorce (no offense, T2L); IMO he's
way too manipulative for T2L to ever have a decent life with him - she'll just spend the rest of her life trying to figure out how to please him, and he'll spend the rest of his life keeping her on her toes (brings not2fun to mind). And it would make more sense to the kids, and it would not urge them to blame themselves for not being good enough to bring him home for months if not years. It's already over a year; why should he ever change?
I don't agree that WS can be good parents. They are like CRACK ADDICTS....Parenting is not tops on the list...THE DRUG is..IMO, children need to be PROTECTED against them..
As a person who was on the phone with her when T2L was talking to S10 - I was so impressed with her strength, her compassion for her son, and her ability to say "No" when necessary.
She is doing a wonderful job in a most difficult situation.
There is a plan moving along.
I agree T2L is doing wonderful, though...
PLAN B is HARD..I screwed up zillions of times...
But I got lots of TOUGH LOVE here when I screwed up, though..
I needed it and appreciated it...as it is clear that T2L does...
Sorry I haven't been posting. My mother is in a health crisis, and my body isn't faring too well either.
Anyway, I have time for a brief note tonight.
To answer Neak's question, I think if a second PBL is done, it should be done the same way the first one is done - from the BS to the WS. There's been enough contact here that it wouldn't be too much involved for her to give him the letter. And she might be able to slip a little touch of a Plan A in there when she does it. Just to let him know she means what the letter says - that she can, and will, forgive him when he comes home.
Me? If I were giving him the letter, I would wait for one of those nights when he is there, lingering...when you know he wants to stay and "can't". Hand him the letter as you are closing the door, and tell him that there is a way he could stay forever. Tell him that the door you close behind him tonight could always reopen to him - and the letter he holds is the pathway home. Then close and lock the door behind you.
Keep your voice quiet, soft, honest, and calm. Tell him that you love him before you close the door.
And do not open the door that night again, unless he agrees to the terms of the letter.
You never know what his reaction might be. I haven't heard of a second PBL before, but somehow your WH seems to be in a very weak position right now and keeps turning up with reasons to be around you. And he keeps indicating and hinting to the kids that his affair has about run out of gas. But someone else said it:
PRIDE
stands in the way. Maybe he needs to be pushed. So the second letter might just be the push.
I didn't have time to read if you have already given it to him or not. If not, I hope it turns out the way you want it to. I liked some of the ideas about letting him know that God still loved him.
I always tell people who are having a crisis in faith that they may have lost faith in God, but God still believes in them and has faith in them. God never wavers.
I think that is a very handy trait to have in a God.
Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.
BTW, I read somewhere that if you want to get rid of SeaHags, you just hire the Argonauts.
SB
Ok..maybe not WONDERFUL..as well as can be expected in a difficult situation...
For marital recovery to happen with such a cake-eater, it's important that she remain as DARK as possible..
Plus, it is likely TRUE..sad to say.. that her WH is USING the children to some extent..they are TRULY ALIENS..main goal and priority being THE DRUG..as I said before..
But, SB, as MORTARMAN would say, THIS is the TIME to BE DARKEST..when he is WANTING HER is the time to be DARKEST...
The WS has to SUFFER, SUFFER, SUFFER..HURT, HURT, HURT..to come around..
Any PAIN RELIEF will PROLONG THE AFFAIR...
This certainly was the case for my H..sent him running back to her EACH TIME..
Steve told me to ONLY GIVE after HE GAVE and only A LITTLE..only a SPECK of LIGHT..
..sad to say.. that her WH is USING the children to some extent..
100% agree ... WH is using the children to stay in contact with the "nagging" "bossy" "controlling" wife he couldn't wait to leave :RollieEyes:
There is a plan afoot.
And in case anyone wonders ... she still loves WH .... so she's not ready to throw in the towel.
100% agree ... WH is using the children to stay in contact with the "nagging" "bossy" "controlling" wife he couldn't wait to leave
Yep...
Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.
I agree 1000%. T2L, stay strong. The sermon today at my church was "one voice crying in the wilderness". That's how to look at your WH. He is out there... in the wilderness... crying, thinking that no one can hear, especially God. When I walk in downtown or ride the train each day, I look around me and imagine all the hurt that is going on in people's lives. You can't tell it from the outside, but I always imagine that they are people "crying with no tears."
I have great faith that God is in control of this situation. It has been told to you AND to him by various people that God has plans for you both.
Don't give up. Never give up.
I'm always reminded of the Prodigal Son when it comes to WS's.
The key to the son's return was when he came to an end of himself.
That's when he was ready to return and repent. He was ready to be a servant in his father's home (humility).
And the Father was waiting. The son was only able to say "I have sinned against heaven and you." That's when the son was able to be restored.
There is always hope in God's grace.
Yep, I agree.
And this PB will just keep getting tighter. Each time he does succeed in getting a glimpse that wasn't planned - unlike the sink thingy, or if something happens like DS inviting him into the garage, it's just taken care of so it doesn't happen again.
There will be no more sammiches, lol, and every effort will be made to be securely out of sight at the beginnning and end of the visits. The rest will take care of itself with time.
Also, the VD
presents the kids were discussing with their dad were what they wanted to give her. Since T2L is a SAHM, she and the kids are currently dependent on WH for every penny. They can't get her a present for anything at this point, without getting the money from him. This was not about WH getting her a present, but about him loosening his purse so the ids could get something.
Was it taken care of? Doesn't seem like it to me. I went back and found several incidents of him trying to provide her food, and succeeding half the time. When did she tell him to give her no more sammiches? I never saw that. I never saw her strengthening anything.
I just don't get it. Where do you see "The rest will take care of itself with time." The only thing I see happening is him not using the IMs at all because the finances are set, and the kids contacting him or him contacting the kids more and more and more as time goes on. I see him getting access to the house more frequently, even if it's just to park out front (and yes, she did ask him not to; and he ignored it; I went back and found it), all the way to having dinner in the house.
I went to my dad's apartment once. I told my mom about the stacks of Playboys and all the sex stuff. Next thing I knew, he picked me up every visitation and we went to the mall, the movie, or out to eat. How hard is that? I don't see any mention of him picking them up and driving all the way back to his/her place. But I also don't see him trying to do much more than hanging out in front of her house, for his weekly fix. Why can she not ask for that? To take them to the mall?
Since November the only thing I have seen is him getting more and more access to the kids - when HE wants to; should we go back and count how many 'I'm in the neighborhood' phone calls have taken place since Plan B started?
..sad to say.. that her WH is USING the children to some extent..
100% agree ... WH is using the children to stay in contact with the "nagging" "bossy" "controlling" wife he couldn't wait to leave :RollieEyes:
There is a plan afoot.
And in case anyone wonders ... she still loves WH .... so she's not ready to throw in the towel.
Please do tell me what in my posts makes you think I am telling her to throw in the towel? I am telling her to be stronger and consistent. Either give up the Plan B and make things easier for everyone - except for stopping the affair - or go back to Plan B and STOP letting him ignore your wishes. I have seen many people here with kids who only let the WS call at set times. They fume at first...but they get it.
This man is a classic manipulator. Go back and read from the front like I did today. You will remember that he has been tweaking her wishes over and over and over. What's the result? He gets to keep scr&wing OW; he gets to 'win' by seeing his kids whenever he wants to - all he has to do is call and say 'I'm in the area...' and suddenly he's dropping of lunch for T2L.
Go ahead and keep patting her on the back; God knows she needs to be congratulated for not going crazy by now. But I'm not going to congratulate this 'plan' she is doing while it perpetuates the pain she and her kids are going through.
T2L, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. I get the sense that some people here think I am. This has nothing to do with you and everything to do with your WH's manipulation and what it'd doing to you 3. It keeps being said that there is a 'plan afoot'...ok, I'm willing to wait. I've said my piece. You feel compelled to keep defending yourself instead of asking yourself whether my observation has any merit. Your choice. But I have learned here that, when I start getting people questioning my motives or actions, it's time to at the very least, ask myself if I'm going down the right road (most times, the answer was no; but that's me).
At any rate, I thought I'd post some of your comments (in chronological order) from the last year, so you could have a chance to step back and see where you started, where you've gone, and whether you see anything of value. If I'm offending you, I'm sorry, I'm just worried about you guys. I'll back off, since mostg everyone seems to think I'm being mean and unfounded.
I'll make 2 posts, cos I had a lot of stuff I found I wanted to show you.
_________________________________________
I am planning to keep my Plan B just as strong as Plan A. That's kinda one good thing about me I try to be consistent. HE's not going to see me. I am now a ghost LOL.
I'd rather die than for him to think I'm not serious about not contacting me. No way Jose! I'm staying dark. Plus everyone that didn't stay dark(what I've been told and what I've read)have huge regrets for flip flopping and not staying dark. Not gonna be me, I'll take their advice-I am now a ghost.
From Delean-de:
ALL requests go through the mediator.
He should not be making requests through a 10 year, who has a 10 year old's hopes and wants and needs.
Funny, I know a guys who does independent films, he was joking with me saying OMG I need to do a movie on you this is crazy.
Whatever happened with that?
RESPONSE from my H to the mediator:
Mediator, mediator, mediator!!! NO, NO NO!!! That doesn’t work. Do not get anymore involved in this. I know you are a friend to T2L and are supporting her though this but DO NOT call or email me things like this ever again even if she asks you too! This is how friends become friends no more. She wants to do this her way and use you to get in the middle. I would suggest you tell her you chose not to get involved. I really don’t understand why she would even ask you to do this in the first place. She knows I would react like this a lash out and I will lash out at anyone standing between me and my kids regardless of what I’m doing in my personal life. If I go to MY HOME to see MY KIDS I better not see anyone other than them!!! Its no ones business other than me and my family. No else is paying the bills and supporting them. I do!
OMG so what NOW???? H is not going to respect the mediator no matter who it is. WTF!!!!! Help what now? What do I do if he shows up here at the house? I informed my mediators of everything but they don't feel he'll listen to anyone. Help!
I do feel week and am very nervous about the IM working when he refuses to. He says that he's not going to talk to strangers or friends about his personal finances. What then.
My pastor also said he needs to be alone and to experience life with out you so he can't blame you like he always has.
He always blamed you?
He used to say why are you apologizing you didn't do anything and I would respond because I just don't want to fight. Although as I said I was not perfect and needed some fine tuning, I did cater to him like crazy, I think It might not have been healthy for me. I had spotless house ever day, packed his lunch every night, dinner on the table right when he came home, did all his shopping even for clothing because he hates shopping, did the bills, scheduled everything with his family so they would be connected, all parenting and discipline of kids, washed, folded and put away all laundry and laid work clothes out for the morning, you name it I did it.
He was a good guy for many years, only prob his angry flare ups over kinda meaning less things, but not a daily thing, and he was kinda moody like just irritated, never super mean but he just was like not content. So anyways, I am used to catering, I loved to care for him that way as that was my share and contribution to the family as I am a stay at home mom and full time wife.
one month after discovery H came by the house to see DS10 they visit then we talk and he says if you want me back so bad why aren't you beating down my door begging me back. He's always known how much I love him but I think he has always looked at me as weak although I am not.
you shouldn't have married me out of high school, you should have sowed your oats etc etc and now you want the mother of your children to gravel on her hands and knees and beg you back. I said NO WAY its not happening. Then he says so what your just gonna forget about me and I stare at him with a blank stare for like 10 seconds and say oh you want a response? The he says so I suppose your not going to wait around forever are you and I laugh and say well I am only 38. But that all happened just after discovery, so I say all that because I guess its probably really important for him also to see a new T2L that doesn't doubt herself and is confident enough to ride this out.
I think his occasional outburst have always held me captive. Even his moodiness I think kept me captive to a degree since I just wanted him to be happy and although we had many many happy and funny moments there was always this underlying thing where he almost couldn't be happy, ya know what I mean?
DD17 is babysitting for the evening, but I don't worry about her so much. She wants me to dump dad, and divorce him so our lives aren't rotating around him.
I guess because nobody else seems to see the dangers I see in her situation. All I see are congratulations. She's been in this boat for over a year now, and nothing is changing except perhaps he's starting to see that she may just get a life outside of him and that may make him jealous. But so what? Is that enough to make him hit rock bottom? No. It may be enough to make him drop OW to keep anyone else from getting T2L, but the instant he gets back and feels he's back in control, he'll just go right back to doing things his way. Cos that's what he does.
I'm also upset because watching her son is killing me. I lived that life. My brother went from a fun-loving funny guy to a shell of a person because my dad walked out and used us to get what he wanted, just like T2L's husband is doing. I ruined my life with choices I learned from having a dad like T2L's husband. Her son is in a really fragile state, and he is this.close to going down the same path of mental torture my brother did because T2L is making choices based on D10's immediate happiness, not his long-term well-being.
I guess because the only good solution I can see in her situation is tough love. Miserable in the short term, yes, but she's setting the stage for a lifetime of self-doubt and lack of control in her son's life. That's not a criticism, but a worry.
I'm so upset because no one else seems to see the danger, all the comments she's made about D10's mental well-being, and linking what's going to happen if he keeps stringing his kids along like this, getting their hopes REALLY up, only to have him stomp off when he doesn't get things his way.
JMO
Here's the rest of the posts. I looked these up, T2L, because you said yesterday that you never asked WH not to park in front of the house, and I knew you did. Maybe you didn't specifically ask him face to face, but you did it. So that got me thinking what else is she not remembering or revising to fit today's situation? Anyway, I stopped once I got to the post that talked about not wanting him to park in front of the house.
________________________________________
I mean IDK but by him trying to say hello to me yesterday, it triggered anger in me. I feel like ya know what a-hole I have nothing more to say to you. There is nothing more that needs to be said and I don't want to hear your stupid idiotic hellos like that's supposed to make things better....duh what planet are you from??? I feel completely irritable and slightly angry.
So and hour into the game DD17 calls H to see if he's going and he of course if not because he's not playing my stupid [censored] games. What freaking games, I a m just refusing to talk to him!!! B@st@rd!!!! Ok sorry, I'll get it together. Myabe I'm PMS'ing I can't figure out what my problem is. I guess momma bear is pissed at Papa bear for messing with my BABIES!!!!
Right now I HATE H! Its a good thing he doesn't hear from me because right now I wanna open up a can of whoop a$s and LB his a$s on fire!
Well on the way home from the game DD17 updated dad on score and the record they broke he said he wants to come see them at 3:30, un-freaking believable. It wasn't ran by my mediators as H and DD17 were talking and he said he wanted to come see her. I told DS10 to go to as he seems to be a little more settled when he sees his dad and less of rejection, anger or anxiety issues to deal with.
Then he tells DD17 well this strategy your mom is using to try and get me home is not working it's only making it worse. Then he tells her well even if I do come home a lot has to change in your mom. OMG OMG OMG! How does a freaking person who cheated on his wife, betrayed her, broke the marriage covenant and moved in the the nasty skank sit here and point the finger at me and say I need to change.
his mood controlled the entire house. I always tippie toed around and even made sure the kids tippie toed so dad wouldn't be irritated. He was never physically abusive ever but his mood controlled the atmosphere of the house and I tried always to make him happy but couildn't.
I don't know if he'll ever use the IM's but I keep sending the visitation availability for DS10 with no expectation of an answer
Had to come up with the visitation for DS10 so the IM's could postal mail it to him.
What happened to that schedule?
H just called and talked to DD17 while I was in shower. DD17 banged on the door and says dad wants to come visit.
As of this point he refuses to talk to IM's via email so my awesome threesome Pep, Neak and Delean are postal mailing him visitation and financial stuff. He is getting the information but will not respond. He wants nothing ot do with the mediators, but none the less I am still sending information though them.
So I said fine he can come visit you all again at the park behind the house. Told them all to shut the garage as he is not welcome here and that DS10 must be back by 4:30.
I would say the only thing bad about his refusal of responding to IM's is that he can call like that. I don't really want to deny the visit as the kids were free and DS10 needs to see his dad......whatever....water off a ducks back.
No worries he ain't gonna see me I'll lock the doors behind the kids and not answer my phone.
Here is where you gave up and let him control everything.
Truthfully he needs to be broken, humbled and repentant, and only God can do that.
Trying to stay busy, have hard moments but my resolve ist getting stronger as I will no longer accept what I have lived under and things will have to change.
He is very stubborn, and after going thru Thanksgiving I see that the holidays mean nothing being away from the family. I have set a mini goal of trying to keep going in 6 month increments as its more attainable. April 23rd was D-day. I hope to God I can make it to that date.
He gets mad and texts back and says I will never come back and she is making this worse. She is playing games and I would rather be single than have her control me. All your mom needs to do is communicate with me. DD17 then says well mom did communicate with you for a few months and you still didn't come home.
No H refuses to use the IM's. H was sent a schedule of days that the kids are free. He refuses to speak with them and so the IM's have told me that I will probably not get communication back from him. But regardless I am still sending information through the IM channel and disregard the fact that he has given them crap and we have had to go postal for communication as opposed to email.
In addition my 17 year old, 18 in 2 months, is old enough to visit with her dad when ever she wants. So when he is free he calls DD17 and asks her if she wants to visit and DS10 will go along.
Other than visitation there is not much to send through the mediators. He deposits money every week since the start of this in April so we have no reason to communicate. He calls the house when he arrives and the kids are sent out or he meets them in the park. Other than that not sure what else can be done.
I have now asked the kids to let him know that they are bored of the park behind the house and now to have him meet you guys and another park at the other end of the city. I dont want him parking his car in front of my house and visiting behind the house at the park then coming back and visiting more with the kids in the front yard. This should stop that.
When I talked to Ms T on the phone, I strongly recommended no more sammiches, and she agreed.
Whew Ello luvs!
Just got done reading...Whew. Ok, here goes...
I do still love my H. He was a good man for the most part. yes he had the undercurrent of unhappiness and slight moodiness but that was NOT everyday. That was a here and there thing. I do believe that apart of that, that this is also, no matter what your faith is, that this was a spiritual attack against my H as well.
Mr. T2L was a very very loved associate Pastor in bible school. He was very well liked and loved. If he was a complete a$s then he might not have been so well loved. He was very very very close to DD18 and if he was completely horrible that would not have been so. DS10 was tucked in every night by his father and prayers were said every night together with each other. And really the last 6-7 years our marriage was happy. I was dumb founded that married people could be this happy as we got married so young and had a rocky start but after we found Christ and attended church we both grew.
I felt most of the time like the most beautiful woman ever. He would tell the kids when waiting for me to get in the car see how beautiful mommy is. I felt very protected too. But yes there were times when he was a bit moody and I would try to cheer him. So you may want me to move on a get a D because you think that I would be better and the kids, but if can return, like believer says, if he was a good man before then there is a good chance that He may return to that, then I'm all for trying to keep going. You see I believe in him, always have, more than he believed in him self. He struggles with self esteem issues but he would never let anyone know that, and truth be told, he thinks his wife doesn't see it either. Its just like Pep said, he was not confident and I think he does struggle with intimacy issues.
I will follow my heart and continue to try and fight for the marriage. If God has placed grace in my heart for me to do so then why should I go against that? I do not feel co dependent nor do I feel that fear is what is motivating me. I am well aware that I can find another relationship and be very happy. I have no fear of not being able to start over if I so choose. God places burdens in everyone's heart, this is mine, at least for now. Will it be forever, nope, I know the God I serve is a caring God and at some point, of His choosing, he will remove that grace. That grace, is time for Mr. T2L to find himself again. Our society is a throw away society and a quick fix or run society. I do believe there are marriages that should NOT be restored but this is not one of them. There is gold in Mr. T2L's heart. I have always seen his potential and for now, I'm gonna fight to try to keep going for the kids, Mr. T2L and myself and possibly an eternal purpose. Maybe it will happen and maybe it won't but when God lifts that burden then I will go and NOT 1 second before that no matter who tells me. God gave me a heart and a mind to speak to me with so he's gonna call this one not me.
H does not get me on a silver platter. My Plan B is not perfect but it ain't too bad either. I have see him 1 time because I failed to tell DS10 daddy can't come in garage, but yet I left the home and stayed out of sight when he was there, And 2nd time, which was PLANNED and the Phone call after my Bday that I accepted and re-quoted the Plan B letter.
My children are not learning to be stepped on. My son hears me explain why his dad cannot come in. DS10 knows very well why and that mom has made a stand. Both my children know my stand and that dad cannot have me until Sea Hag is gone. H only visits on His days he does NOT come when he wants to so I am not sure what you are referring to. The day he came to fix sink was his day. The day he came early to say happy birthday to DD18 was his day. He for the most part only comes on his day. My kids do not feel their mother is weak. They do not get crumbs. If their father visits them they feel loved, and when he makes no attempt they feel rejected. Its all good when they visit.
He has the potential of being a good father. Was he at the start of this whole mess, heck no he was a bad father but I can see he is trying to reconnect with his children and I am so very very grateful he is not taking my children near the Sea Hag. In 9 1/2 months my children have never seen her or been to their apartment.
I know that H seeing me during the sink issue he got a fix, but guess what that was planned. I wanted that to happen. Him visiting the other day and talking to the kids in driveway yeah hes getting his fix, I just went to my room till he left so he could not see me. He did not come in either. He knows he can't. He knows I will not accept him until he drops the Sea Hag and I think he is puzzled that I won't.
Anyways gotta get DS10 in bed. {{{{Hugs}}}}}
That's why it is called a "roller coaster ride" - we have the ups
, the downs :MrEEk: , and the loop -d- loops :crosseyedcrazy:
I agree with catperson on this.
B or no B.
You can clearly see what is going on by catperson's summaries.
Cut him off. Tell him to use the IM's or the children just won't be available to him.
He is still running the show. And enjoying it. He knows he is getting to T2L.
Charlotte
Here's the rest of the posts. I looked these up, T2L, because you said yesterday that you never asked WH not to park in front of the house, and I knew you did. Maybe you didn't specifically ask him face to face, but you did it. So that got me thinking what else is she not remembering or revising to fit today's situation? Anyway, I stopped once I got to the post that talked about not wanting him to park in front of the house.
________________________________________
I mean IDK but by him trying to say hello to me yesterday, it triggered anger in me. I feel like ya know what a-hole I have nothing more to say to you. There is nothing more that needs to be said and I don't want to hear your stupid idiotic hellos like that's supposed to make things better....duh what planet are you from??? I feel completely irritable and slightly angry.
So and hour into the game DD17 calls H to see if he's going and he of course if not because he's not playing my stupid [censored] games. What freaking games, I a m just refusing to talk to him!!! B@st@rd!!!! Ok sorry, I'll get it together. Myabe I'm PMS'ing I can't figure out what my problem is. I guess momma bear is pissed at Papa bear for messing with my BABIES!!!!
Right now I HATE H! Its a good thing he doesn't hear from me because right now I wanna open up a can of whoop a$s and LB his a$s on fire!
Well on the way home from the game DD17 updated dad on score and the record they broke he said he wants to come see them at 3:30, un-freaking believable. It wasn't ran by my mediators as H and DD17 were talking and he said he wanted to come see her. I told DS10 to go to as he seems to be a little more settled when he sees his dad and less of rejection, anger or anxiety issues to deal with.
Then he tells DD17 well this strategy your mom is using to try and get me home is not working it's only making it worse. Then he tells her well even if I do come home a lot has to change in your mom. OMG OMG OMG! How does a freaking person who cheated on his wife, betrayed her, broke the marriage covenant and moved in the the nasty skank sit here and point the finger at me and say I need to change.
his mood controlled the entire house. I always tippie toed around and even made sure the kids tippie toed so dad wouldn't be irritated. He was never physically abusive ever but his mood controlled the atmosphere of the house and I tried always to make him happy but couildn't.
I don't know if he'll ever use the IM's but I keep sending the visitation availability for DS10 with no expectation of an answer
Had to come up with the visitation for DS10 so the IM's could postal mail it to him.
What happened to that schedule?
H just called and talked to DD17 while I was in shower. DD17 banged on the door and says dad wants to come visit.
As of this point he refuses to talk to IM's via email so my awesome threesome Pep, Neak and Delean are postal mailing him visitation and financial stuff. He is getting the information but will not respond. He wants nothing ot do with the mediators, but none the less I am still sending information though them.
So I said fine he can come visit you all again at the park behind the house. Told them all to shut the garage as he is not welcome here and that DS10 must be back by 4:30.
I would say the only thing bad about his refusal of responding to IM's is that he can call like that. I don't really want to deny the visit as the kids were free and DS10 needs to see his dad......whatever....water off a ducks back.
No worries he ain't gonna see me I'll lock the doors behind the kids and not answer my phone.
Here is where you gave up and let him control everything.
Truthfully he needs to be broken, humbled and repentant, and only God can do that.
Trying to stay busy, have hard moments but my resolve ist getting stronger as I will no longer accept what I have lived under and things will have to change.
He is very stubborn, and after going thru Thanksgiving I see that the holidays mean nothing being away from the family. I have set a mini goal of trying to keep going in 6 month increments as its more attainable. April 23rd was D-day. I hope to God I can make it to that date.
He gets mad and texts back and says I will never come back and she is making this worse. She is playing games and I would rather be single than have her control me. All your mom needs to do is communicate with me. DD17 then says well mom did communicate with you for a few months and you still didn't come home.
No H refuses to use the IM's. H was sent a schedule of days that the kids are free. He refuses to speak with them and so the IM's have told me that I will probably not get communication back from him. But regardless I am still sending information through the IM channel and disregard the fact that he has given them crap and we have had to go postal for communication as opposed to email.
In addition my 17 year old, 18 in 2 months, is old enough to visit with her dad when ever she wants. So when he is free he calls DD17 and asks her if she wants to visit and DS10 will go along.
Other than visitation there is not much to send through the mediators. He deposits money every week since the start of this in April so we have no reason to communicate. He calls the house when he arrives and the kids are sent out or he meets them in the park. Other than that not sure what else can be done.
I have now asked the kids to let him know that they are bored of the park behind the house and now to have him meet you guys and another park at the other end of the city. I dont want him parking his car in front of my house and visiting behind the house at the park then coming back and visiting more with the kids in the front yard. This should stop that.
Funny reading all that. LOL
Well alot of his response is typical fogbabble and pitching a fit cuz he can't have his way. Expected and normal WS behavior.
But do you also see that I did not ask him to not park at the house? I told the kids to go visit at another park. So kids would say he dad lets go here.
No worries Cat, please don't feel like your being out voted, I can see how some of your childhood pain may bleed into this a bit, but I firmly feel you care for the kids and I.
I appreciate your concern for DS10
I can hear the love you have for children. When I took DS10 to therapy at Kaiser(HMO) the therapist said hes a good boy and actually he seems like he is mostly struggling through adjustment disorder mostly and that it is very typical.
DS10 does so much better when he talks and visits with his dad. DS10 does not like being upset with his father and he does not like it when him and his father are not talking. And ya know what H is really making a connection with his son better than he was before the affair. before the affair he took son for granted, he tucked him in and prayed with him every night but didn't take the time to really get to know him and now DD18 says mom its a good thing DS10 is visiting again I can see dad finally getting to really know DS10 and talk with him.
But yup hubby sure was a b*tthead at the start of PB but thats pretty normal.
I agree with catperson on this.
B or no B.
You can clearly see what is going on by catperson's summaries.
Cut him off. Tell him to use the IM's or the children just won't be available to him.
He is still running the show. And enjoying it. He knows he is getting to T2L.
Charlotte
I use the IM's to get his visitation schedule to him. Technically he legally does not have to abide by them. It is NOT a legal document, it is merely a suggested visitation schedule.
He only visits on those days. He IS abiding by the schedule and technically doesn't need to tell the IM's that he is visiting if he IS abiding by the schedule. He gets it and he uses it.
And there is no way I am not going to let my son, who feels better, not see his dad on visitation days. That would be punishment to DS10 not to H as H is still fogged and cannot feel the pain that DS10 does by lack of visitation.
I don't see him as running the show. Even in Schoolbus's input about what he said to DD18 about getting permission from the head honcho he knows he's not running the show. A person who runs the show doesn't ask to stay the night they just do it. He knows that I know my rights and that he cannot come into the home since he has been gone that certain amount of time. He doesn't get to talk to me he doesn't get to see, except for our "planned" break. He gets no responses to texts he does not email me and I do not talk on the phone either. yeah he parks his car in the street and plays at the park behind the house. LOL But.....that is all public property. Can't really look very sane trying to kick someone out of public property. LOL
You know...whatever.
You guys are all singing kumbayah and explaining away every complaint I've read from T2L since she started posting. And, as expected, all you got out of my posts was that I'm telling her her husband is a monster and she should divorce.
I did not say either one of those things. I said your husband manipulates ALL of you to get what he wants. That does not make him abusive or evil; it makes him someone with a dysfunctional FOO who learned early on to get what he wants by finding other people's weaknesses and playing psychology on them. That doesn't make him a monster. It DOES mean that unless you want to KEEP letting him doing so, someone needs to consider boundaries that protect T2L instead of WH.
I said that your kids are not getting the total benefit you think they're getting just because their dad now can drop by whenever he wants, nudge his way further and further back into the family structure, one sandwich or Valentine's Day present at a time - and STILL get to keep schtupping OW. Why should he change? He's been getting to do whatever he wants, short of moving his stuff back in the house, for a year now! What possible effect is T2L having on him any more? Tell me, cos I really don't see it. And all I see is two kids who are not getting resolution. Who are having to go to bed each night, thinking 'well, I guess I didn't have an effect on him. I guess I couldn't love him enough to make him see the light. I guess I screwed up again somehow, cos he didn't give up OW and come home.'
See, the thing that so many of you don't get is that to kids, it is ALL their fault, no matter how many 'talks' you have with them, no matter how many assurances they give YOU that they 'get it' and don't blame themselves. ALL THEIR FAULT. They are lying to you, T2L. That's what kids in breakups do - they protect the one who didn't leave, and they kiss up to the one who did to be worthy enough of getting him to come back.
Sure, you can say they'd be going through this even with a real Plan B. But the difference is that, with a real Plan B, not this 'keep dad happy' concoction that's been devised, T2L would have taken a stand and kept to it and made life hard for WH. He would - for once - learned that sometimes you have to live by other people's rules.
T2L, WH is cake-eating because you refuse to be more stubborn than him. And because you refuse to tell your kids 'Look, we are going to have to do a last-ditch effort to get dad to come back, and I need your help. It's going to be hard, it's going to be sad and lonely. But I need you to help me honor my Plan B letter and NOT let him get his cake from you guys until he is willing to accept that he can't always make all the rules.'
The excuse you guys are all giving about 'no one can make him stay away, it IS his house after all' is BS. That is true for each and every BS who comes here. So what's the difference? The other BS's - the ones who get their spouse back - are strong and stubborn and even mean if they have to be. Every time he pushes on your boundary, you moan and then give in, and then say 'oh well, this is good enough.' And he knows it.
Why should he not let this go on for years? As it is, he gets to keep OW, he doesn't have a court telling him what to do, and he is having a blast seeing how hard and how innovatively he can push your boundaries and wheedle his way back in. He probably hasn't been this excited about life in 30 years.
At any rate, you're just going to keep glossing over and making excuses for my points, so...the only thing I have left to say is good luck. Oh, and go sign your son up for permanent counseling. He's going to need it.
Me-ow! CP!
I see your points, I know your opinion is honest and from your heart.
-
this is like a reality check on crack.
remember CONTRAPOSTO!-- the balance is somewhere in the center.
the balance is somewhere in the center.
Of course it is. Which is why I was trying to get somebody to stop patting her on the back long enough to look at the reality so that someone would make an effort to GET to that center.
I'm not chewing T2L out. I'm not criticizing her and saying there's anything wrong with her.
Maybe this is striking a chord with me because my H is like T2L - a really nice, classy person who cares more about others than himself. Who doesn't have a mean bone in his body. But who, because of that, continues to get walked on at work over and over again. Like a coworker who wants H out will bark at him in a meeting (sit down and shut up - literally!), and H will simply sit down instead of being as stubborn as the other guy. So what happens? The other guy gets what he wants, while H waits for this guy to see the light and give H a break, and everyone loses respect for H.
Doesn't work that way. My H could get ahead, if he would stop and learn how other guy works and counter it. But he doesn't, so he continues to get the scraps at work.
I just want T2L to reassess how things are going.
I guess because nobody else seems to see the dangers I see in her situation. JMO
I do, Cat.
T2L, tst and I both think you are appearing weak to WS. And IF he is close to his "breaking point", weakness allows him to avoid that breaking point.
When tst was breaking, I was CONTINUOUSLY shutting him off at every pass he tried. He didn't get in more, he got in LESS.
You are NOT in Plan B, no matter how much you tell yourself you are.
Here is a post I made a long time ago about plan B. I think it applies here:
Some BS's struggle with the purpose of Plan B:
I don't think you yet understand the PURPOSE of Plan B.
THE PURPOSE is to protect you from the drama and abuse of the affair and the WS's behavior. Plan B shields you from this drama and abuse, which in turn, restores your mental health and may help you to retain some love for your husband. Since affairs usually die within two years, Plan B can be a waiting time for the BS while she hopes for the end of the affair.
You should have no knowledge of what WS is doing or saying. Every time you talk with someone and "learn" something about WS, you ARE breaking Plan B.
You go NC with WS to PROTECT you, not to get the affair to end. It will most likely end eventually no matter what you do.
The goal is to protect yourself. You must not allow ANY information about WS to come to you, except through your intermediary....who filters out all wayward babble crap...and only gives you information about 1)finances, 2)children, and 3)his willingness to comply with ALL Plan B requirements to return to the marriage.
THAT IS IT. You should hear NOTHING ELSE.
WS may be "respecting" your Plan B, but you are not. YOU have not yet "gone dark".
It's time to butt out of his life, and start living yours. You are still trying to DO SOMETHING to get this affair to end. Plan B is about sheltering yourself from the WS, not manipulating situations and conversations to get the affair to end. THAT is the OPPOSITE of Plan B.
And I FULLY AGREE that this is ALL a spiritual attack. So step back and let the only One who can win this battle deal with your husband.
This could take 10 years....or 10 seconds. That is how little you control your husband coming to his spiritual surrender.
This war is between him and God.
And I think you blew over tst's post to you a day or two ago.
He said YOU WERE GETTING A FIX. He was not talking about WS getting a fix (although we all know he is getting his share).
Good morning y'all.
Hooray...DS10 made it through 1 whole night in his room in his own bed!
CAT did you ever do a Plan B and how long did it last? And how long was your H a WS for? I have so many who post to me, and I'm so so so grateful for it, I was wondering if maybe y'all could post to me and tell me if you did a plan B, how long was your plan B, how successful you were in total darkness in your Plan B, did your Plan B have breaks and how close to the SAA were you.
Yes i do understand the purpose of Plan B is not to break up the affair....but I was under the understanding that in addition to that what happens when you go to PB that it will force the WS to get all his needs now from the OP and not just to protect you. I have read a few of the stories from Ace's recovery thread but not all of them you but from what I understand is that most people have not done an actual Plan B or a really crappy Plan B with tons of breaks in it. I actually don't feel to bad about my Plan B. I'm not sure why but for some reason a few people think I see my H all the time. I haven't. IN the last 3 months I've seen him twice and only for a few minutes. Other than that I have had no sight of him. Again 1 time was my fault for not telling DS10 and the other was PLANNED. I actually feel my PB is ok.
The planned break was to implement some thing, because this would have probably ended in a Stalemate, I'm almost sure of it. My H knows my loyalty and he more than likely thinks that he can make me cave and let him back in or that he will out wait me and I know that I will wait just as long. So I decided to have him fix the sink ON PURPOSE while I was gone, thank him for it and tell him to let his self out when he was done. I did this on purpose as part of something that I wanted to implement after reading CarolH's thread. She didn't even do a Plan B and she recovered her marriage implementing some changes too. So did I get a fix, I mean I love my H, he looks like crap right now and part of me thinks ewe you look awful. It may be a fix, but I like the things I am implementing, I feel it is having an impact. H is seems very concerned about what I am doing and where I am at. Every night he asks my kids where I am at and Half the time I am gone doing errands just so he cannot rely on my where abouts.
I do see how PB protects you, but anyone who has done PB knows that no matter how many pretty little activities to try and keep yourself busy with "it" is always there. Its like your more concentrated that you are trying NOT to think about it that it makes you actually think about it more because supposed to be tricking yourself. PB stinks but does get easier after a few months. i definitely don't like it but then I definitely dont like sharing my H either and I won't do it anymore and I think that H realizes this. I think he is dumbfounded that I won't let him back in. He's been told no he can't stay the night until Sea Hag is gone and he has been told no eating in the garage for sandwiches. I believe he's starting to see he can't have access to me until he chooses. I mean he may not choose me in the end, but I know I gave it my best, and really have no bad feelings about my Plan B because I have seen that not everyone has done a great one or even done what at all and I have done alright with it.
I do know that even God gave plans and tactics in battles....marched around 7 times and shouted. That was God plan.
But I do like the feedback, I do listen to what everyone is saying and weight things out and do my best to stay close to the SAA principles.
I am going to do the 2nd PBL as suggested by Schoolbus as I really valued what she had to say, simply brilliant! This will be done with the emphasis on the thing she and Pep had mentioned, and they really nailed it on spot with H. That will be done end of the week probably Sunday and in the way SB suggested.
Ok Hugs to all of I'm DS10 just got up.
IMO, T2L has been working to plug the small leaks that have occurred, and sailed through the planned breaks.
IMO, the visitation with the kids needs to continue as is. Whether he uses the IM's or not, he is receiving the visitation schedule and abiding by it. I don't feel it's in the best interests of the kids to be cut off from their dad, since he's not acting in the same over-the-top destructive way he was before. A court would be far more lenient with visitation, and would care nothing for any fog he might be in, as long as he wasn't unsafe. Kids should never be asked to PB their parent. If they choose not to see them, fine. But they should not be encouraged to cut them off.
IMO, T2L is going to need to work the most on her thoughts. She does dwell too much on WH and what he's doing. That will take some time, and much effort. I have alot of confidence that she will do it.
Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.
I agree 1000%. T2L, stay strong. The sermon today at my church was "one voice crying in the wilderness". That's how to look at your WH. He is out there... in the wilderness... crying, thinking that no one can hear, especially God. When I walk in downtown or ride the train each day, I look around me and imagine all the hurt that is going on in people's lives. You can't tell it from the outside, but I always imagine that they are people "crying with no tears."
I have great faith that God is in control of this situation. It has been told to you AND to him by various people that God has plans for you both.
Don't give up. Never give up.
Awe thanks PM! I gonna keep fighting and standing. I know God is chasing him....LOL....cuz I pray Lord chase him with vengeance and sqeezed everything out that needs to go LOL. Thank your DH too for the prayers.
I'm always reminded of the Prodigal Son when it comes to WS's.
The key to the son's return was when he came to an end of himself.
That's when he was ready to return and repent. He was ready to be a servant in his father's home (humility).
And the Father was waiting. The son was only able to say "I have sinned against heaven and you." That's when the son was able to be restored.
There is always hope in God's grace.
I agree and I have been standing in the gap and asking for God's grace upon my H as I know he was in a place of accountability so I ask for grace all the time. I know the word says "Where sin abounded grace did much more abound." Rom. v: 20.
I also think that the 2nd PB letter is going to address things that H may be running from and it is a letter of grace. Not of weakness but of grace.
Sorry I haven't been posting. My mother is in a health crisis, and my body isn't faring too well either.
Anyway, I have time for a brief note tonight.
Oh how very sweet of you to come on. I am sorry to hear your mother isn't feeling well.
Take care of yourself too.
To answer Neak's question, I think if a second PBL is done, it should be done the same way the first one is done - from the BS to the WS. There's been enough contact here that it wouldn't be too much involved for her to give him the letter. And she might be able to slip a little touch of a Plan A in there when she does it. Just to let him know she means what the letter says - that she can, and will, forgive him when he comes home.
Me? If I were giving him the letter, I would wait for one of those nights when he is there, lingering...when you know he wants to stay and "can't". Hand him the letter as you are closing the door, and tell him that there is a way he could stay forever. Tell him that the door you close behind him tonight could always reopen to him - and the letter he holds is the pathway home. Then close and lock the door behind you.
Keep your voice quiet, soft, honest, and calm. Tell him that you love him before you close the door.
I like that and I think I will use it.
And gonna mail one to the bark shack in a nice pink envelope 1 day ahead since the Sea Hag may check the mail too!
And do not open the door that night again, unless he agrees to the terms of the letter.
You never know what his reaction might be. I haven't heard of a second PBL before, but somehow your WH seems to be in a very weak position right now and keeps turning up with reasons to be around you. And he keeps indicating and hinting to the kids that his affair has about run out of gas. But someone else said it:
PRIDE
stands in the way. Maybe he needs to be pushed. So the second letter might just be the push.
I didn't have time to read if you have already given it to him or not. If not, I hope it turns out the way you want it to. I liked some of the ideas about letting him know that God still loved him.
I always tell people who are having a crisis in faith that they may have lost faith in God, but God still believes in them and has faith in them. God never wavers.
I think that is a very handy trait to have in a God.
Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.
Yes I have used a lot of what you suggested, in fact quoted you. I have not posted it yet. Just need to go over it again and then maybe i will post it.
BTW, I read somewhere that if you want to get rid of SeaHags, you just hire the Argonauts.
SB
LOLOLOL Oh that's how you do it! No wonder it hasn't worked I just kept throwing water on her waiting for her to scream I'm melting...LOL J/K wish I could tho!
T2L, I think you are doing a fabulous Plan B. Having kids means complete darkness just isn't realistic. Fortunately yours are old enough to go out to the car on their own, but he's still going to pick them up and drop them off. You're going to hear from the kids about stuff he says and does, and likewise he is going to hear about you. That can't be helped. It's far more important that your children know it's okay (and necessary!) for them to love both of their parents and be involved with both of their parents.
To answer your questions, I did not do a Plan B. I didn't even know about MB until contact with OW had almost ceased completely. Here's a very quick breakdown of my story, it was fortunately a very short lived long distance EA. I don't remember exact dates any more and that's a good thing.
Jan 2002 - H told me he'd emailed old girlfriend
Feb 2002 - H told me he was in love with GF
I instinctively did Plan A
Apr 2002 - contact began diminishing, EA died a natural death
May or July 2002 - NC was established but no NC letter was ever written, just happened.
Joined MB around this time.
Transparency was very slow in coming and while H read through some SAA with me we never even shared our questionnaires. He didn't like any of it but he did read some of it with me, to make me happy. I didn't force the issue, I was lazy. I was also scared of driving him away by "making" him do the exercises and examine our M and our issues.
I felt unsafe emotionally due to lack of transparency and failure to follow through with "recovery by the book". I lived like this, out of fear, for far too long. Or maybe I expected too much too soon, I don't know. I became involved in an EA with a co-worker but I honestly couldn't tell you when it ceased being a friendship and began being something more. Maybe June 2003? NC was Oct 2003 with no "I love you" or similar ever having been exchanged. I just knew my attraction to OM was unhealthy for my M.
DH has never been "on board" with MB though he has read a couple of the books. Even though we've never done "recovery by the book" I know he's completely open to me now as am I to him. He shows me daily through his actions that my security, safety, happiness, and well-being come before his own. I try to do the same for him, but I fall short sometimes. I'm a more self centered person than he is.
CAT did you ever do a Plan B and how long did it last? And how long was your H a WS for? I have so many who post to me, and I'm so so so grateful for it, I was wondering if maybe y'all could post to me and tell me if you did a plan B, how long was your plan B, how successful you were in total darkness in your Plan B, did your Plan B have breaks and how close to the SAA were you.
lol, T2L, is this your subtle way of suggesting my advice is not valid? I'm quite sure you know I have not experienced infidelity, I say so all the time. I prefer to think my value is to keep people aware of the psychological aspects of their situation, since that is my forte and is, more often than not, pretty accurate. For example, I guarantee your son is not telling you everything he is feeling, because it is an adolescent boy's 'duty' to protect his wounded mom. I also know he is building up his adult personality through this experience. And I'd be willing to bet money that he will become one of two types of people you see on here when he's an adult - someone who buries his hurt and hurts (or uses) other people, or one who seeks to please everyone and gets trampled on a hundred times because he won't be respected because he won't stand up for himself.
And that's assuming he doesn't have even stronger issues. (based on today's announcement that he finally was able to sleep in his own bed)
The point I keep trying to make but apparently am not getting across is that you can let your kids have time with him now on his terms and you may be stuck doing this
for the next 5 years,
to their detriment, or you can make a stand and get it decided one way or another by moving back to what you had early November.
But that's cool, that's what this forum is for - hear what you want to hear, ignore the rest. You guys don't want to consider that things could be changed - your choice. Your life. No one wants to hear so, like I said, I'll bow out of your thread.
Leaving you with one thought:
but I was under the understanding that in addition to that what happens when you go to PB that it will force the WS to get all his needs now from the OP and not just to protect you.
Have you ever sat down and made a list of what ENs he's getting from her and what he's getting from you guys? I'd be curious to see what you think is happening.
I get that you're planning another PBL, but have you planned what
you will do when he once again thinks he will just walk all over it? Like he did with this one? And to which you gave in? If you're not willing to stand up to him, and ask the kids to help you in this, the only thing a second PBL will do is CONVINCE him that he will never have to listen to you again. This reminds me of taking only half your dose of antibiotics, and then the next time you need them, they don't work at all because you didn't wipe out the aggressor the first time.
Anyway, good luck.
T2L, I think you are doing a fabulous Plan B. Having kids means complete darkness just isn't realistic. Fortunately yours are old enough to go out to the car on their own, but he's still going to pick them up and drop them off. You're going to hear from the kids about stuff he says and does, and likewise he is going to hear about you. That can't be helped. It's far more important that your children know it's okay (and necessary!) for them to love both of their parents and be involved with both of their parents.
I must not be writing correctly. None of you are getting what I keep trying to say. What I said was that she needs a position of strength. To say that schedules will be handled through IMs and then use ONLY the IMs. Or else say in the PBL that schedules can be handled through the kids and then stick with that.
The problem is that she says one way, he says another, and she says ok.
If she's not willing to practice tough love re: the kids and the IMs until he's willing to use the IMs, then she needs to
restate her boundaries. Because I guarantee that right now he is pretty darned pleased with himself that he has trampled over every rule you've tried to make.
It is THAT mentality - and
your response (ok, just one lunch inside the house; ok, just one look through the garage; ok, it really doesn't matter to me that you're parking back in front of the house even though I said it hurts me) - that is going to feed his EN for controlling you, and is going to prolong the affair, thus hurting your kids more in the long run.
T2L, I never did Plan B. In fact, I didn't know about MB until we were into recovery, and it has been a Godsend for me.
I believe (based on personal knowledge of myself) that Plan B would have been a HAVEN for me. My kids were older though-- the youngest was 16.
I think you're doing great on your Plan B compared to some that I've seen since coming to MB.
As far as the damage to your children, even if you went completely BLACK, there will still be residual damage, but you know what? God can heal even that. I've seen in my own children's lives.
Caveat: No offense is intended to any non-believers with what I'm about to say:
I can see where this would seem hopeless and damaging beyond repair to a non-believer, because there would be nothing to fall back on, except their belief in their own self-worth, society's beliefs and pop psychology. However, T2L, with your strong faith, firm foundation and trust in God, everything changes.
The point I keep trying to make but apparently am not getting across is that you can let your kids have time with him now on his terms and you may be stuck doing this for the next 5 years, to their detriment, or you can make a stand and get it decided one way or another by moving back to what you had early November.
T2L has stated that she doesn't plan to continue like this indefinitely. Her first gol is to make it one year, and then she might consider extending it another 6 months to make it to the point where Dr. Harley says most affairs end on their own anyway.
Personally, I think this affair is already on it's way out.
What specifically are you trying to get her to do? I don't think you are telling her to force her kids to also PB their father are you?
It is hoped that a side effect of PB is to force the WS to look to the OP for all ENs. But the main point of PB is to protect the sanity of the BW. T2L seems to be coping pretty well with that, she doesn't seem to be getting so many "fixes" that she's losing it.
As far as that side effect goes, IMHO her strategy seems to be going pretty good. But I am not intimately involved with the daily happenings and private behind-the-scenes stuff - all the things that one can't realistically be expected to type into a computer. But T2L has IM who not only are on board with MB but are some of the most experienced MB vets around. And she has not 1, not 2, but 3 of them! In all the history of MB I don't think anyone has had more capable IMs.
I must not be writing correctly. None of you are getting what I keep trying to say.
Cat, you know I love you... If everyone in the room is saying one thing and you're saying something different, do you think it's time to re-examine things?
*hugs* cat... I hear that this is really really triggering you, and that you are identifying with T2L's DS10 from your childhood FOO issues.
I think you are smart. You may have a valid point. What *precisely* would you have her do differently?
Sorry I haven't been posting. My mother is in a health crisis, and my body isn't faring too well either.
Anyway, I have time for a brief note tonight.
To answer Neak's question, I think if a second PBL is done, it should be done the same way the first one is done - from the BS to the WS. There's been enough contact here that it wouldn't be too much involved for her to give him the letter. And she might be able to slip a little touch of a Plan A in there when she does it. Just to let him know she means what the letter says - that she can, and will, forgive him when he comes home.
Me? If I were giving him the letter, I would wait for one of those nights when he is there, lingering...when you know he wants to stay and "can't". Hand him the letter as you are closing the door, and tell him that there is a way he could stay forever. Tell him that the door you close behind him tonight could always reopen to him - and the letter he holds is the pathway home. Then close and lock the door behind you.
Keep your voice quiet, soft, honest, and calm. Tell him that you love him before you close the door.
And do not open the door that night again, unless he agrees to the terms of the letter.
You never know what his reaction might be. I haven't heard of a second PBL before, but somehow your WH seems to be in a very weak position right now and keeps turning up with reasons to be around you. And he keeps indicating and hinting to the kids that his affair has about run out of gas. But someone else said it:
PRIDE
stands in the way. Maybe he needs to be pushed. So the second letter might just be the push.
I didn't have time to read if you have already given it to him or not. If not, I hope it turns out the way you want it to. I liked some of the ideas about letting him know that God still loved him.
I always tell people who are having a crisis in faith that they may have lost faith in God, but God still believes in them and has faith in them. God never wavers.
I think that is a very handy trait to have in a God.
Hang in there T2L. You are doing a great job in the situation that has been handed to you.
BTW, I read somewhere that if you want to get rid of SeaHags, you just hire the Argonauts.
SB
I freaking LOVE this, SB.
Jayne, I would have her do differently what I keep trying to say, and apparently not very well, lol.
She says this; he does that. Her kids WATCH her say this and him do that. They learn that their dad, at least, and perhaps any male, does not have to respect another's wishes. That as long as he is strong enough, pushy enough, charming enough, he can get whatever he wants and no matter how it may be hurting her and causing her pain.
IMO that is what is harmful to the kids. Her kids are old enough that she can explain what she is trying to gain here - her sanity but also her H and their dad back. She can explain how people try to manipulate others, and she can explain that that doesn't mean he's a bad person, but that may be all he knows how to do - this entitlement that allows him to do what he's doing instead of having his kids as his #1 priority.
We learn by what our parents do. Period. Like I said, by watching this go on for over a year now (and honestly, do you think she is going to abide by her self-imposed time period she decided several months back and walk away from him at that point?), and by watching her continue to fudge her boundaries so he doesn't - in her own words - get PO'd and stomp off and ignore the kids, they are learning:
you can ask for what you want but if someone is not willing to give it to you, you accept that and take what they ARE willing to give you
you don't tell your loved one the truth because he stops calling you
having him keep coming around at any term he's willing to give you is paramount over retaining your integrity
you also can get what you want by saying one thing and doing another, by coercing, manipulating, or sweet-talking your way into what you want instead of just being honest and respecting yourself
you are not worth as much as your father because no matter how much you hurt or ask or cry or beg, he will choose himself over you
I'm trying to get her to see that she can set up a stronger PBL, and she can sit her kids down and tell them what she's about to do, and how it will help keep their mother sane but it will also show their dad that he has to make a choice - that the 3 of them, and especially the kids, won't just sit back and accept these crumbs while he continues to live a double life - they are worth more than that and they should expect more from their dad. She can tell them that has one last chance to get him to see all that, but it will require her looking 'mean' for a bit, because whatever boundaries she sets up in that PBL will have to STAND this time, and she may end up telling D10 "I'm sorry, but that's not how I need it to be; he can't continue to dictate how we live" (something that I believe both kids have told HER), and that may require her saying no to them sometimes when it comes to giving their father what he wants.
Think of an emotionally abusive person - that person knows how to spot weaknesses, and uses those weaknesses to get what he wants. How is what WH is doing any different?
I guess I'm trying to get people to look at the length of this. It's the length that, to me, is harming the kids the most. Just like a wife can lose her love for her H and thus may need to go to PB to retain that love after a time, a child can become broken-hearted and disillusioned and lose their love for their dad (or mom). But the child doesn't have the ability to say 'I'm going into Plan B' - they don't have the control, the parents do. They don't have the right or sophisticated brainpower to do anything but stay in pain.
Jayne, that's why I keep saying I'm bowing out - everyone else is saying something different. Maybe I'm wrong and all these red flags mean nothing. I hope so. But this 10 year old boy just now was able to sleep in his own room. Psychologically speaking, such things are huge.
ote]She says this; he does that. Her kids WATCH her say this and him do that. [/quote]
But what specifically?
She sends her msgs via the IM. There are predetermined visitation days. He meets the kids outside or down the street or elsewhere. The kids TXT their dad but so do all other kids even during PB. Unless the kids choose not to, or unless the WS has completely abandoned them.
What specifically would you have her do differently? A specific example might help.
Okay IM's check your email.
My lil munchkins know that dad can't come in the house and can't stay. They have been told. During sandwich time DS10 was told again dad can't come in, pep was on the phone listening, so he knows but he begs like all kids in his place would.
During the planned break in PB with the sink issue, DS10 begged again for dad to stay and he was again told NO dad can't stay. All other times he has asked he is told the same thing. He knows what I have asked and what the boundaries are. Visitation and parking locations are out of my control.
I'm talking about all the 'I'm in the neighborhood, can I come by' calls. All the I'm getting dinner, ask your mom if I can bring her some calls. She has said multiple times that he completely ignores the IMs. So she sends messages, they go ignored, and he calls and comes by whenever he feels like it. He no longer meets the kids anywhere else; he not only has crossed that boundary (her asking him not to park in front of her house), he is now coming into the house (through the kids' permission, of course, when T2L is not there to stop it).
Is that not what is being said?
Specifically, I would have her tell her kids she can no longer allow him to keep bending all the rules, no matter how badly the kids want to see him every available minute. I would have her tell them there's a reason she set up this elaborate system, and the only thing (IMO) that's being adhered to is that he doesn't physically see her face to face. I would have her tell her kids she needs to make a last-ditch effort to save her feelings and show him why he needs to make a decision, and for that to happen, she has to have their cooperation to quit bending the rules themselves - to quit asking her if it's ok if dad does this or dad does that - they already know she doesn't want it, yet they keep asking, and she keeps agreeing. Because she doesn't want to hurt her kids.
But IMO, what she is giving them is a fake relationship with their father. One based on manipulation, wheedling, nudging, and seeing what each person can get away with - all stuff THEY are learning. What child should have to live that kind of life with their parents? Either give up the pretense of having a Plan B and just accept whatever future he's willing to give them, or do it right.
And honestly, I think T2L is getting too much of a payoff by keeping it this way. At least this way, he's paying attention to her, he's not just outright rejecting her. As long as she has some sort of control over his access to the kids (asking her permission to ignore the PB), she is still getting about as big of a thrill as she can expect. If she were to push harder, he is likely to balk and divorce - as she herself has admitted. So she is keeping her marriage AND her kids in limbo.
Thanks cat.
There are some specific suggestions in there that IMHO are worth considering, at least. I think T2L is doing an awesome job, BTW, but the specific things such as allowing him to simply call up and ask to come by, is there a reason for that or could that be tightened up? And I think (hope) T2L recognizes the mistake with the one sandwich incident. And the pizza thing - I think that was a misunderstanding and a prolonging of the planned sink episode, right? So hopefully no more meals provided to T2L by WH, right? Cus we know he has that hero complex.
I think those are the main things that you mention that T2L actually has control over, right? No more meals and no more spur-of-the-moment visitations?
There is the situation with the 2nd PBL. I happen to think that's called-for in this case. This is somewhat different, but there have been cases where someone had a false recovery and wrote a 2nd PBL. So it isn't unheard of, just a different goal with this one. And I trust SB.
So delivering the 2nd PBL will require contact if I understand. Maybe after the delivery of that would be a good time to enforce the no spur-of-the-moment visitations and no meals.
I wouldn't be heartbroken if MrT2L missed a visitation on account of refusing to read the IM's mail.
Is it uber importante T2?
I'm having troubles with yahoo. I can see the messages there, but it says "sorry for the inconvenience" when I click on them.
Stoopit yahoo.
Thanks cat.
There are some specific suggestions in there that IMHO are worth considering, at least. I think T2L is doing an awesome job, BTW, but the specific things such as allowing him to simply call up and ask to come by, is there a reason for that or could that be tightened up? And I think (hope) T2L recognizes the mistake with the one sandwich incident. And the pizza thing - I think that was a misunderstanding and a prolonging of the planned sink episode, right? So hopefully no more meals provided to T2L by WH, right? Cus we know he has that hero complex.
I think those are the main things that you mention that T2L actually has control over, right? No more meals and no more spur-of-the-moment visitations?
There is the situation with the 2nd PBL. I happen to think that's called-for in this case. This is somewhat different, but there have been cases where someone had a false recovery and wrote a 2nd PBL. So it isn't unheard of, just a different goal with this one. And I trust SB.
So delivering the 2nd PBL will require contact if I understand. Maybe after the delivery of that would be a good time to enforce the no spur-of-the-moment visitations and no meals.
I wouldn't be heartbroken if MrT2L missed a visitation on account of refusing to read the IM's mail.
Since having an actual copy of the visitation schedule mailed to him and not just email, H has been abiding by them.
The sandwich thing won't be done again and he had to go eat it with DS10 at the park. Yeah the pizza thing was part of the sink repair and was kinda out my control. DS10 did beg me to eat with them but I did not. Grabbed a few slices and ate in my room. As soon as H was done eating he split back to the garage as he knew he was not wanted by me in the house.
Yup and I thought had seen other times where a 2nd PB letter was done because of false recovery or breaks in PB's. I think now visitations are going well to the schedule. He now informs the kids oh this is my day I will see you on this day. There is no more questioning as he now refers to his hard copy.
Is it uber importante T2?
Hi Kimmy!
What are ya talkin bout gurl?? Whats that mean?
My apologies, then, T2L, because I remember seeing you say he won't have anything to do with IMs, that he often calls and says 'I'm in the neighborhood can I come by (and it seems like that was only a few days ago)', and that he has asked you on at least 2 occasions if he can spend the night. These are the things that were sticking out in my mind.
I really feel torn about this whole discussion. Partially because I'm in my own plan b and because I try very hard to stick to it, I miss my H very much.
I think it can be more difficult with kids, but I guess as I read your posts, T2L, sometimes I feel like you are living only for the recovery of your M and I think your WH knows it.
He financially supports You, not just your kids, so you are still His (does that make sense?) You seem to still be holding up your end of the marital bargain (I'll stay home with the kids and take care of everything in the house), but he has not kept up his. So, you may stick to your vows, but are there other agreements that you now have the freedom to change?
I guess I wonder what would your plan B look like if you said, "I need to now live as though he did not exist? I am single, but not looking for a partner." Would you work outside the home? How would that change the current dynamic.
Also, my WH texts the kids and has tried multiple times to set things up with my DD13 this way. I set limits on it (I tell her and now she tells him automatically, "that needs to go through the IM.") The reason for this is that is the boundary I set and I try to keep. Further, we have set times he has the kids. DD13 doesn't want to go and I respect that. However, he is then not going to have her other times because it is not respectful to me -- that is my time with the kids. The assumption on his part is that if we are home, we have nothing to do and he can take the kids. He gave up that freedom when he moved out. Your WH has given up that gift of time with his kids by moving out and creating two households. He now must share his time with you.
Also, I will not be put in the position of saying yes or no. We have agreed upon times that he can see the kids and that is what we try to stick to.
I guess what strikes me is he calls to stop over and his assumption is that none of you have anything to do and are available for him. I think there is a very strong message going out that you are all still living for him.
I can't shake the thought, "I wonder what T2L would be doing if he were completely out of the picture for her? What would she be doing with all that amazing energy?"
Please take this with the good thoughts and energy I am sending with it. I know this is hard, but I felt I just had to share with you what my thoughts are as I read your thread and I accept that I may be off the mark.
Take care of yourself!!!!
My apologies, then, T2L, because I remember seeing you say he won't have anything to do with IMs, that he often calls and says 'I'm in the neighborhood can I come by (and it seems like that was only a few days ago)', and that he has asked you on at least 2 occasions if he can spend the night. These are the things that were sticking out in my mind.
No apologies needed girlfriend
and don't feel you need to leave either. You have valid points. He did a few times call and say he was around and wanted to pop by. I wasn't a regular thing and it dropped off after a few tries. We just send the 1st actual snail mail copy and its working very well. When I saw him that night he wanted to stay over, he asked me if I could mail him a copy and I said I would. Since then its been much better. He was only getting email correspondence and he claims his employer had given him a new email address.
Here's some of why he does it an of course it doesn't give excuse. My H works all over the Southern California area all the way down into to San Diego. Its a really vast area. He does not know his schedule til about 1 week before but it constantly shifts up until the night before. He has 4 appointments daily ranging all over that huge area. So there are times when he happens to never be in this area and its really hard for him to get here. Of course I would make the drive, but then he drives hundreds of miles everyday so I cannot speak for him. I would drive to the end of the world for them. So that's why he would call and see if he could visit. And he only asked me that 1 time if he could spend the night and he was told no i don't want to share and he hasn't asked again. He did try to stay late on the sink night but I told DS10 time for bed at 9PM and then said thanks for fixing the sink what door did you want to leave out of? Then he left 5 minutes later.
But really you have valid point, don't feel you need to leave. I hear what you say, and apply what I feel I need to. After 2nd PB letter, which I hope is the push SB says might help, the PB will be dark. Can't promise perfection but I always try hard with what I do.
And yes Janye you are right. 1 year of d-day is April 23rd. Still have a ways to go yet. I think he's worth the wait. I was the nutso when we first got married and he looked past all my crap and BOY was it horrid. I only experienced change after Christ entered my heart. I used to ask my H why did he stay when I was so horrible, he said he loved me. So its my turn.
Yes I may try to push 6 months past the 1 year mark, that would make it about 18 months. I'm not in a hurry and it doesnt matter to me if I look silly. God uses the silly things to confound the wise. I'm already silly anyways so I can't look any sillier LMAO
I really feel torn about this whole discussion. Partially because I'm in my own plan b and because I try very hard to stick to it, I miss my H very much.
I think it can be more difficult with kids, but I guess as I read your posts, T2L, sometimes I feel like you are living only for the recovery of your M and I think your WH knows it.
He financially supports You, not just your kids, so you are still His (does that make sense?) You seem to still be holding up your end of the marital bargain (I'll stay home with the kids and take care of everything in the house), but he has not kept up his. So, you may stick to your vows, but are there other agreements that you now have the freedom to change?
I guess I wonder what would your plan B look like if you said, "I need to now live as though he did not exist? I am single, but not looking for a partner." Would you work outside the home? How would that change the current dynamic.
Also, my WH texts the kids and has tried multiple times to set things up with my DD13 this way. I set limits on it (I tell her and now she tells him automatically, "that needs to go through the IM.") The reason for this is that is the boundary I set and I try to keep. Further, we have set times he has the kids. DD13 doesn't want to go and I respect that. However, he is then not going to have her other times because it is not respectful to me -- that is my time with the kids. The assumption on his part is that if we are home, we have nothing to do and he can take the kids. He gave up that freedom when he moved out. Your WH has given up that gift of time with his kids by moving out and creating two households. He now must share his time with you.
Also, I will not be put in the position of saying yes or no. We have agreed upon times that he can see the kids and that is what we try to stick to.
I guess what strikes me is he calls to stop over and his assumption is that none of you have anything to do and are available for him. I think there is a very strong message going out that you are all still living for him.
I can't shake the thought, "I wonder what T2L would be doing if he were completely out of the picture for her? What would she be doing with all that amazing energy?"
Please take this with the good thoughts and energy I am sending with it. I know this is hard, but I felt I just had to share with you what my thoughts are as I read your thread and I accept that I may be off the mark.
Take care of yourself!!!!
BF
Hey there, I do see what you are saying. I do focus on recovery of my marriage. But right now my focus is also on my kiddos. I have 2 kids home schooled so they are with me 24/7 unless DS10 has a sleep over somewhere or DD18 goes out for the evening.
I have been a SAHM for the entire marriage. Its what H and i wanted. We both wanted mom to the one here for the kids full time. I am holding up my vows to him as I am not divorced and I cannot date for obvious reason nor could i even emotionally commit to anyone either. But I don't just uphold my vows to him, I am upholding them for my children too. I am here for them.
The worst place ever to hit my H is in his pocketbook. He hates debt and is very concerned about money. By making him pay for everything it hits him hard and the OW also gets no money from him. I have been told that this is not the time to get a job as if this ends in court it will look better on paper that I am still a SAHM. If I get a job now that would be more money in their pockets and sorry but I don't want to fund that mess.
I see that both you and your H have agreed on days. My H and I have not agreed on days. I set the days I felt were fairest to him as his schedule is crazy and it doesn't always work. A while back H said that he has not agreed to anything so technically he is right. But now the schedule seems to be working. He has said he was in the area a few weeks back when he dropped off the W2 for me but we said we would be out and to leave it under the mat. So he doesn't always get what he wants.
I have been gone several nights a week so H can't rely on the fact that I am living for him and tonight, as long as its not pouring i will taking a salsa class. But thanks for sharing and stopping in.
There is also stuff that not everyone knows about too that is going to help H realize I am not living just for him. I think the sink issue did a very good job visually of this.
Is the email ginormously important?
I can't see my email on yahoo....
Dat's all.
Hey T2L, just checking in.
Much dialogue on your sitch today.
But the bottom line is everyone here wants you to be happily reconciled in your M.
Everyone has their own opinion and each is right in their own way.
Only you know your own situation and how it will work for your family. The bottom line is we are rooting for you.
I do like the idea of Bestfriend about working. I know it looks better to the court (but you are not involved in that mess)
but maybe you get a job for only up to 10 hours a week so that in H's eyes you are asserting your independence. Showing H you are standing on your own without him supporting (translates - depends, needs, adores). Just a thought.
Take care.
Kimmers, I got it taken care of.
Cat, I for one had no idea you hadn't experienced infidelity. There are many people I run across here that I don't know their stories at all. (You being one of them.) And I have been here for almost 4 years.
Cat, I for one had no idea you hadn't experienced infidelity. There are many people I run across here that I don't know their stories at all. (You being one of them.) And I have been here for almost 4 years.
I did, but I read on the EN board a bit.
Just wanted to say the pizza night... I was on the phone with T2L and she very much wanted him to leave, couldnt figure out how to do it without it being a LB. So we decided to send her DS to shower earlier than usual, she reiterated to WH that the IM had sent a visitation schedule, and he left about 5 minutes later.
All very polite, strong and no audible "oh please push my boundries more" IMO
Sure. I'll take y'all's words for it. But on this side of the equation, we just see a lot of slipping. I hope it works out.
At the end of the day we post to a forum so that we can receive advice and validation. If we wanted to be right, we'd post a blog and leave it at that.
I have had both sides on my thread and I don't always like the varying opinions. Catperson has been one of the toughies alongwith MelodyLane and BigKahuna. They throw punches when they need to and rarely miss.
You know what, I miss them when they do not show up as the heavy voice of reason. I often wonder if they still read my threads but choose not to post. I feel more alone without them and I so wish I knew what they thought too, even if I don't agree. As the BS I think we are in our own fog sometimes and with so much invested in our marriage with children, dream homes, beautiful memories and the love of our life, we want to rid of the WH so much that we are willing to do anything and look at our situation with buttons for eyes.
I truly believe that Catperson is not trying to cause problems, she's merely reading the other part in the script that is just as important. Dealing with a WH is always dealing with a controlling selfish spouse and there is always something to learn. I really admire and respect her opinion which runs a lot deeper than just father, brother, sister. She's amazing.
T2L, you are holding your head high in a devastating war on your marriage and you are really doing a great job. Weigh up all of the advice and let God guide you, but don't shoot the messenger. People post to you because they love and care for you.
Good morning T2L! Another day, another hill to climb.
I'll be in and out today, so if you need anything just call - don't wait for me to get online.
Geez, 2M2L...
fwiw, I would post more on your thread if YOU would post more, lol! I check for it every day, but I don't like intruding unless you're there ready to spill, kwim?
Truly, though, I'm just being a devil's advocate.
I was talking to my H about his company, how he always wants people to participate in the meetings, even the lower-level people, because how else will you know what's wrong? His boss only wants the top management to know what's going on, and H thinks that's not only stupid, but dangerous for the growth of the company. Information and insight is always key. (and conversation!)
Cat, thank you for having the time and patience to explain your stance more clearly. I totally see where you are coming from and, as usual, your points are worthy of consideration.
T2L, if you can't get a job, how about volunteer work? You could probably even do something with the kids that would work into their school curricula. Volunteering at a hospital, or art gallery/museum, or homeless shelter, or SPCA... that would get you out of the house, involve you in new acquaintances (all female, of course!), and give you goals and focus outside of your own family. Not instead of, but in addition to.
Hi turtle head,
IMO still like the idea of T2L working for real money even if it for very little hours a week. This will give the impression of T2L trying to make it on her own (perception of being independent and not have to depend financially on H) which keeps him in power.
True, Hope.
Volunteer work = I have an interesting life
Work for $$ = I will be fine by myself
Hmm... T2L, do you have any skills that you could use for a home based business? Calligraphy, sewing, sculpture, jewelry making, baking cakes, training dogs, photography? That could show WH that you have options (he doesn't need to know how much you're making (or not)) and at the same time not mess up things by you having a dependable income outside of WH's salary.
:RollieEyes:
I'm signing off for now.
No Jayne. Don't. Please don't. Your opinion is valued.
:RollieEyes:
I'm signing off for now.
Okay, I must have totally missed something.
Why the rollie eyes?
Have I put my foot in my mouth?
Come back!
I usually hit reply down at the bottom of the page, no matter who I'm replying to. Hopefully that's what happened.
Jayne, thank you. Not for signing off, either!
Today is therapy day, so I've got to go get busy. We should be all done with therapy by the end of the school year...amazing, considering that my oldest is dealing with about 7 years of sexual trauma with other kids. But children are so resilient, and he's making great progress!
Hee hee, I'm going to be brainstorming about an awesome job for Ms T, as soon as she is ok legally to get one. Bet I can think of some good ones.
Mornin' Y'all. I don't know why I say that its not as if I'm from the country LOL
Ok I'm calmed down, maybe I miss read the comment. I am as what my kids call me, a momma. I see bright futures in my children and speak life and destiny to them as much as possible. I do believe our words carry weight and are creative. This is my spiritual side talking, so its kinda a take it or leave kinda thing. Anyways I speak creatively over my children I try my best to avoid speech that does not create the life I see for them or the life that God sees for them, so that's why I got a bit angry. As soon as I got off I went and ministered words of life to my kids and took authority over any words that I thought were not to be apart of their future. Sometimes we speak death and darkness and we don't realize it and we don't mean it. Nuff said.
Anyways, I am not a hater. Not a part of my nature, I do not hate CAT or Mimi and feel, yes they has valid points, as I have said over and over the last few days. I love y'all. I love Cat and I love Mimi too. Can't have made it this far without y'all and every poster. I may use the advice or I may not but that does not mean I don't feel what they say is valid or true, I just may not use it. And BTW Jayney it was CarolH's thread that I am implementing as well
I understand my battle and see even clearer how big this battle is and I am not going to let myself get discouraged. I believe there are eternal things at steak....too long to go into.
But overall, I have absolutely no regrets in the way I have worked the plans. I feel my Plan A was pretty rockin-I mean I got H to cheat on her regularly and I met all the needs pretty well. My Plan B, not too bad either, really in the last 3 months H has not seen me or talked to me but the few times and they were very brief. I have no excuses, because I chose every thing that has been done thus far. The break's were chosen, the sandwich was laziness and I TOTALLY FORGOT that I shouldn't let him meet my needs because I was so concentrated on not meeting any of his by trying to stay dark-ooops
. But really he sent a sandwich in and was made to go to the park and eat it cuz I wouldn't let him in.
I have no regrets. I feel H is learning that I will not accept crumbs. I think he is actually scratching his head about it. T2L is not gonna share me. And I'm not. I understand my value. He's gotta ditch the b*thch as my saying goes.
Anyways, I'm fine, gonna spend some time in prayer today and DS10 has swim class and jui jitsu and lots of home school stuff, studying and another darn test LOL. Tests mean momma has a 2 hour study session.
Yeah turtle the volunteer thing is something I can look into. I have done most of my volunteering at my church when I was leading worship but have been gone from church since end of December to last Sunday when I came back. I have not gone back singing yet. So weird I have not sang in almost 2 months. But I was doing some cleaning there as we didn't have a cleaning crew come in and I am a servant at heart so I could do that. I did do it once in Dec and brought DS10 with me and he wanted to help to and did all the vacuuming and it made both of us feel good.
As far as the work thing goes, yes it may make it seems that i don't need him but until any papers are filed i have been told do not get a job yet. The courts can order that and I need to appear as I have been a stay at home mom the entire time, which I have.
Anyways love to everyone.
I usually hit reply down at the bottom of the page, no matter who I'm replying to. Hopefully that's what happened.
Jayne, thank you. Not for signing off, either!
Today is therapy day, so I've got to go get busy. We should be all done with therapy by the end of the school year...amazing, considering that my oldest is dealing with about 7 years of sexual trauma with other kids. But children are so resilient, and he's making great progress!
Hee hee, I'm going to be brainstorming about an awesome job for Ms T, as soon as she is ok legally to get one. Bet I can think of some good ones.
Ewe, I like that do I have a new name??? Ms T Yippeeeee
BTW...Yes DD18 after taking that temp position at the local JC college has decided to go to college on campus and I couldn't be more thrilled. You see I know my DD better than anyone in the world even her self. I have known from the time she was young that I have to use the back door with her. You say yes she says no. So when she said she wanted to go Online college I just listened and carefully expressed my "back door" comments on it. But God is good that way. He opened a door for her to have a 2 week job at the college under the table because she was actually to young but they told her be quiet we like you were giving the job to you. So it opened her eyes to it. I was never crazy about the online thing but with DD18 the more you push the more she pushes and I have gotten such great results training her using back door. So i do agree that she should go to an acuual campus.
T2L,
I don't think it is unusual for your DD to have second thoughts and some concerns about leaving home and going to college on campus. I think this would be true even if your WH was there. I think it is pretty natural to be a bit afraid of "what's next" after high school.
I think him being gone magnifies some of these insecurities, but she seems to be a smart girl. She had a discussion here and received various opinions, she talks to you, she does research. She isn't sitting back with her arms crossed "No way! I wanna stay home and that's it!"
From what you have said, you both seem to be processing and being reasonable about decisions. I think that is very smart on both of your parts.
I haven't posted to you much but have read your thread from the beginning.
Take care.
Hi WH, agree with what you said.
T2L, I remember when D28 was trying to figure out where she wanted to go and decided on a college about 2 hours away. 2 weeks before she was supposed to leave she came home one night and had a HUGE meltdown -- didn't want to leave, wanted to work for a year, take one course...She kept it up for a few days and then changed her mind again and again.
She panicked the first week and then never looked back and happily graduated in 4 years!
You do have a nickname, because I'm lazy. It's much easier for me to type Ms T than T2L.
T2L,
I don't think it is unusual for your DD to have second thoughts and some concerns about leaving home and going to college on campus. I think this would be true even if your WH was there. I think it is pretty natural to be a bit afraid of "what's next" after high school.
I think him being gone magnifies some of these insecurities, but she seems to be a smart girl. She had a discussion here and received various opinions, she talks to you, she does research. She isn't sitting back with her arms crossed "No way! I wanna stay home and that's it!"
From what you have said, you both seem to be processing and being reasonable about decisions. I think that is very smart on both of your parts.
I haven't posted to you much but have read your thread from the beginning.
Take care.
Well hello WH!
Yeah I think you're right she may have been a bit nervous about college but that little 2 week job in the book store cured it. I use my self as an example so I know that she will finish college. I tell her now look at momma. She got married right out of high school, stayed at home and raised you both and I have no regrets.
I was here for 1st smiles, steps and milestone. That was important to both me AND my H. One of the reasons why it was so important to us that I stayed home to raise them was because of the statistics. Where we lived up til 2 years ago had one of the highest child abuse and sexual abuse amongst children in the nation and for over 10 years. It horrified us more to put them in day care than struggling financially.
Anyways back to story...so I say look at momma, don't do this. I say get your degree then if you want to come home for 20 years and raise your kids, go for it but should anything happen in your life you will have that little degree waiting for you. Great thing is she says I know momma I will. But yeah she has always known she must finish college but I think she was nervous. Now she seems excited about it.
But yeah she has always known she must finish college but I think she was nervous. Now she seems excited about it.
Great! I think in today's society it is VERY important that a young person finishes their education. It's just too hard to get by nowadays without that.
T2, I'd like to reassure you about the effect of father's extended visitations on mental health of your son. Many studies found that although the divorce is devastating for all pre-adolescent boys, the prognosis for maladaptive adjustment for such children DEPENDS on the number of protective factors, pre-existing mental health conditions, and a level of marital conflict between parents.
The most important protective factor for preadolescent boys, according to longitudinal studies, was the amount of father's involvement and their positive interactions with boys. Apparently, preadolescent boys with engaged fathers later demonstrated a higher level of cognitive development and fewer internalizing problems and behavioral disturbances compared to boys with disengaged and unsupportive fathers.
T2, I'd like to reassure you about the effect of father's extended visitations on mental health of your son. Many studies found that although the divorce is devastating for all pre-adolescent boys, the prognosis for maladaptive adjustment for such children DEPENDS on the number of protective factors, pre-existing mental health conditions, and a level of marital conflict between parents.
The most important protective factor for preadolescent boys, according to longitudinal studies, was the amount of father's involvement and their positive interactions with boys. Apparently, preadolescent boys with engaged fathers later demonstrated a higher level of cognitive development and fewer internalizing problems and behavioral disturbances compared to boys with disengaged and unsupportive fathers.
Well thanks for sending that. We had a good marriage, LOL I thought, before the A. We didn't fight and the kids were in a stable happy loving environment pre-A. Kids both tucked in by dad every night even DD17. There were no pre-exisiting mental health problems in DS10 prior to the A. H talked with an did things with son before all this as well but not as much as mom. DS10 is a momma's boy but I know that probably would have changed sooner or later. But overall H is supportive of DS10. H was a pretty bad father during the 1st 6 months of the A but now it seems that he has really taken interest more in our son and I think he realizes he could have been an even better father and I think is trying at this point. I can see the joy it causes my son and that is priceless. I can be his mother but I cannot be his father in all ways that his father can. And If I thought for a minute my son was in danger I would not let him visit. I'd find a way so cut them back and have them monitored. Thanks for sending that info.
IM's and Ms T, if you haven't seen it, I sent an email about the financial info. Please look at it as soon as you can.
Never mind!
But overall H is supportive of DS10. H was a pretty bad father during the 1st 6 months of the A but now it seems that he has really taken interest more in our son
This concerns me, T2L. I understand what you may mean. And this is much better than many, including my H during his affair. But, IMO, really taking interest is COMING HOME. It remains devastating to your son for his father to be absent, don't ya think? I'm not wanting to give your WH much credit for this...
I'm saying this because I know that my H used any continued family involvement as RATIONALIZATION for continuing his affair..saying to himself, "at least, I'm doing this...at least, I'm doing that"...and using the OW's sense of values and ethics which was so different than ours, she had convinced him that it was OK to leave your children, that VISITATIONS, etc. were enough...trying to convince him that abandoning his family was OK.."Everyone is doing it"..YUCK...
The WH looks like your real husband but he is not. He is actually an ALIEN BEING. IMO, he cannot be a good father at this time while addicted and under the influence. Of course, it is important not to rob your son of his company..I agree with that..but HANDLE WITH CARE..he is not as he seems to be...
But overall H is supportive of DS10. H was a pretty bad father during the 1st 6 months of the A but now it seems that he has really taken interest more in our son
This concerns me, T2L. I understand what you may mean. And this is much better than many, including my H during his affair. But, IMO, really taking interest is COMING HOME. It remains devastating to your son for his father to be absent, don't ya think? I'm not wanting to give your WH much credit for this...
I'm saying this because I know that my H used any continued family involvement as RATIONALIZATION for continuing his affair..saying to himself, "at least, I'm doing this...at least, I'm doing that"...and using the OW's sense of values and ethics which was so different than ours, she had convinced him that it was OK to leave your children, that VISITATIONS, etc. were enough...trying to convince him that abandoning his family was OK.."Everyone is doing it"..YUCK...
I agree he should come home, but he has not. I completely agree that it is far better for H to be here in the home for DS10.
I am however glad that he is at least spending time with DS10. So much of what I have heard and read so far says this is better for DS10 than outright abandonment. If he does not visit DS10 the abandonment issues and rejection issues could be far worse.
I think the visits shouldn't be visits he should be home. I am hoping he comes home. DS10 is trying to get his courage to ask his dad to come home. He keeps telling me he wants to ask daddy to come home but he is nervous. I tell him when your ready you will.
I would love to force H to do what's right but he must make the choice. Until then I can only be the best parent I can be. I am pretty sure the Sea Hag tells him its not a big deal but I know H has to think about it sometime. When he lays his head down at night he has to know. He can lie to himself if he wants but that too is out of my control. If I tell DS10 he can't visit or discourage it I feel the repercussions are far worse. But yeah I do agree with you. I wish I had a magic wand but Mr. T2L must make a choice.
The WH looks like your real husband but he is not. He is actually an ALIEN BEING. IMO, he cannot be a good father at this time while addicted and under the influence. Of course, it is important not to rob your son of his company..I agree with that..but HANDLE WITH CARE..he is not as he seems to be...
I agree. He is not the man I married or knew. He is not a good father right now, and I try to explain this to DS10 without it becoming a bashing party. I try and explain what I would do and compare it that way instead of tearing down his dad. I think H can do that on his own LOL. I don't trust him as far as I can throw him and try to convey that as neutral as i can but DS10 needs to see his dad. At the start of the A when he left DS10 had such an identity crisis for not being the same as other kids. Other kids had fathers. So seeing his dad for the few hours 3 times a week gives him the acceptance he needs from his dad and the feeling that he is not different. But I do handle with care as best I can. I am not at the visits so I have to kinda ask DS10 when he comes home how was the visit. He usually comes back very happy but he misses that his dad has to leave and wishes he could stay.
How was your salsa class?
I GOTCHA!!
hey T2L, remember I told you about the locked thread with the crazy poem about H and OW. Found the link. WTH
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2208248#Post2208248 :twobyfour:
I hope I don't need to say that any poetry I wrote about the A would be a VERY DIFFERENT style.
LOL yeah Hope you were right, that's uh pretty gross.
BTW, thanks IM's your my friendly neighborhood postal center LOL. I owe stamps to a lots of yous! Thanks Mrs. W too!
I hadn't wanted to get on and post because of all the chaos. I figured I'd just stay off for a bit and let things settle.
Nuttin new to report. No contact. H still calling DS10 at 8:15 every night. This is an improvement as H used to call past bedtime and was notified by the IM's several months back that DS10 will be in bed by 8:30 so he needs to call before that so now he calls at 8:15 every night.
I signed DS10 up for this home school swim course about 3 weeks ago that is put on by the city parks and rec center. He loves it! It is so nice to hear him say at night I can't wait til tomorrow for swimming. I love this class momma its so fun. He actual hasn't said he's loved anything for a while. I mean he tried baseball and hated it, did soccer and hated it, did football and for the most part he liked it but he hated the practice because they were so brutal. But this swimming he loves! ITs 2 weeks of the various swimming strokes, then 2 weeks of diving and then 2 weeks of water polo. They are diving now. He is learning proper technique and yesterday he did his 1st back dive off diving board. Its a hoot watching! DS10 is also taking a Jui Jitsu class once a week now too. He seems pretty happy about all the new stuff he is trying.
And on the brighter side he has now slept in his bed every night since Monday. I think moving him to the room next to mine helped. He was in a room that was at the front of the house. This room is also smaller so he feels cozy in there. He's pretty proud of his self, course momma gives him atta boys in the morning.
G'night y'all.
hi T2L, swimmng is great. My D28 was on a swim team for years. Great exercise and you can excel individually and as a team.
So you looked at that sitch with the poem, it almost caused a riot. The nicest touch was link to pig noises from Melody!
I hope that poor woman eventually comes far enough out ot her fog to see how revolting that is.
Do you try to come to an understanding of rapists by writing glamorous and erotic....never mind. I oughta stop before I start.
that was her last post.
Are you surprised they shut the posting down??? It was causing a riot.
How goes it, T2L?
Is all quiet at home?
How goes it, T2L?
Is all quiet at home?
Hey SMB.
I figured after all the uproar I would stay off and post a little less. I do however talk with the IM's, much more as they do a lot of emailing and snail mailing for me. The IM's and a few others know a bit more as I talk with them on the cell a few times a week, but for now I am refraining from posting everything because of the last maddness.
We've been a bit busy during the day this week as DS10 had swim class and make up swim class and jui jitsu and of course home school stuff daily.
H is keeping to his weekly visitation schedule and calling by 8:15.
But the kids are looking forward to our New Zealand visitors, especially DS10. And he is very curious about these pineapple chocolate lollies-actually I am too now.
Of course H is very very perplexed on how I know them. Pretty funny. He asked DD18 HOW DOES SHE KNOW THEM and threw up his hands in the air with complete confusion and annoyance that he his not privy to that info.
I guess he expected me to not have any new friends while I suffered, because T2L is so faithful and loyal she will wait and stop living because she loves her husband and always will-he's counting on that, makes me wanna barf
. Sorry just feels like an abuse of grace.
Wait til he finds out hope is coming the week after, BTW Hope I am telling DS10 your from CT, since technically you are and by hearing your serious CT accent he'll know it. So I'm sure H will come unglued when he finds out that I now have a visitor coming from CT.
Anyways, got a few things to do....{{{Hugs}}}
T2L,
I caught up on the thread. Hope everything goes well with the 2nd PBL.
I read something you posted awhile back that I think you should try to incorporate in it. You wrote how he made you feel like the most beautiful woman on earth, how he always told the kids to get into the car to see how beautiful you were. And you also said that he made you feel protected when you were with him - the post was full of the things you admired about him, his positive qualities, that you believed in him.
If I were to write the letter I would probably try to include those things somehow. I have thought a long time about your PBL, actually, and what I would say to him:
Dear H,
I know that I wrote you a letter before, and I'm writing again because somehow I felt the need to tell you again that our marriage can be saved. Seeing you just those few times has been so hard on me. I work each day to remember the wonderful man I know you to be - the man who made me feel like the most beautiful woman on earth, the man who made me feel so protected, the man who ......(you fill it in here). I believe in you, even still.
I know it is hard for you to understand, but I cannot see you because it is the only way I am able to protect my love for you. That love is sacred to me, our marriage is sacred to me. Not seeing you protects the love I have, and keeps it safe so that we have a chance for moving forward together - and I still believe that is possible.
During this time, I have made many changes. I have made new friends, and learned a lot about marriage, relationships, and how to recover our marriage after an affair. This CAN work. I know that you have made changes, too, and that you want some things in your life to be different.
I know that we can save our marriage, and that our marriage can recover from this affair. There is a pathway home for you. You can begin to walk that path - just leave the other woman, never contact her again, and come home.
Reiterate the IM stuff here, with the don't call/contact me stuff until you can walk the path.
Then, end it with the paragraph I wrote before.
Maybe this will help you a little with some ideas for your PBL. I just thought that if you could work a little positive stuff for him regarding the things you found great about him, he might see it as really meaning that your love was still alive - that it was not hopeless. Sometimes I think the WS get the idea that it is hopeless and don't try.
SB
T2L,
I caught up on the thread. Hope everything goes well with the 2nd PBL.
I read something you posted awhile back that I think you should try to incorporate in it. You wrote how he made you feel like the most beautiful woman on earth, how he always told the kids to get into the car to see how beautiful you were. And you also said that he made you feel protected when you were with him - the post was full of the things you admired about him, his positive qualities, that you believed in him.
If I were to write the letter I would probably try to include those things somehow. I have thought a long time about your PBL, actually, and what I would say to him:
Dear H,
I know that I wrote you a letter before, and I'm writing again because somehow I felt the need to tell you again that our marriage can be saved. Seeing you just those few times has been so hard on me. I work each day to remember the wonderful man I know you to be - the man who made me feel like the most beautiful woman on earth, the man who made me feel so protected, the man who ......(you fill it in here). I believe in you, even still.
I know it is hard for you to understand, but I cannot see you because it is the only way I am able to protect my love for you. That love is sacred to me, our marriage is sacred to me. Not seeing you protects the love I have, and keeps it safe so that we have a chance for moving forward together - and I still believe that is possible.
During this time, I have made many changes. I have made new friends, and learned a lot about marriage, relationships, and how to recover our marriage after an affair. This CAN work. I know that you have made changes, too, and that you want some things in your life to be different.
I know that we can save our marriage, and that our marriage can recover from this affair. There is a pathway home for you. You can begin to walk that path - just leave the other woman, never contact her again, and come home.
Reiterate the IM stuff here, with the don't call/contact me stuff until you can walk the path.
Then, end it with the paragraph I wrote before.
Maybe this will help you a little with some ideas for your PBL. I just thought that if you could work a little positive stuff for him regarding the things you found great about him, he might see it as really meaning that your love was still alive - that it was not hopeless. Sometimes I think the WS get the idea that it is hopeless and don't try.
SB
Awe Thanks SB!
I have kinda a rough draft almost verbatim what you had said previously I'm going to see if I can mesh the them. I thought about posting it here just to allow everyone to see it but still mulling that over.
I hope you and your mother are feeling better.
I really appreciate and value your input in case I haven't said that before, simply mah-velous!
There are pros and cons to posting the PBL here.
Pros - you can get ideas about whether your letter is too short or too long, and ideas about whether you are emphasizing something too much, or if you have stayed on point or not.
Cons - people get nitpicky about wording, bicker about what you should or shouldn't say, about how you didn't say this or that, and how you said something, etc. It can be a festival for the semantivores. (Yes, I made that word up! :D)
It's a crap shoot, and you know the risks. I wouldn't post mine if I were sending one! I'm a chicken! Cannot take the pressure, nope, not me.
I would end up rewriting so much that it would lose the 'Bus sincerity, and in the end would not sound like I even wrote it at all. If you have too much input you need to be careful about that. If you use other people's ideas, word it so it sounds like YOU said it, or if you like their way of saying it, make sure that it is in the letter with things you wrote yourself, so that most of the letter is YOURS. That way, the letter "feels" like T2L, and not like something cold. The risk of something with the input of a team of people is that it loses the personal writing style.
To get it to "sound" like you, say it out loud. If it sounds like "you", okay. If not, say it like you want it to sound - like you would say it if he was sitting right in front of you - and write that.
SB
Hi T2L-
Slight t/j- hey SB
It can be a festival for the semantivores
I've met semantivores during some classes I've taken with other AP English teachers. They rear their heads when we are beating a poem into submission (also known as analyzing it). Love the word, BTW.
T2L-I finally have a few minutes to rub together and my cold is gone, so if you want another phone call from Washington A.C. let me know a good time. I'm around all week-end.
*Neak hangs head*
I suspect I am a semantivore, but a nice one.
Hi T2L-
Slight t/j- hey SB
It can be a festival for the semantivores
I've met semantivores during some classes I've taken with other AP English teachers. They rear their heads when we are beating a poem into submission (also known as analyzing it). Love the word, BTW.
T2L-I finally have a few minutes to rub together and my cold is gone, so if you want another phone call from Washington A.C. let me know a good time. I'm around all week-end.
Ello Luv!
How are you??
You can be my Valentine call tomorrow LOL. Call whenever.
Glad you are feeling better cuz I know with your job you need all your strength.
hey if you want to really make sure WH knows your not alone and still have people who care and support you DS and I would be happy to come down one weekend. I love shoving it right in his face too....OMG T2L actaully has friends.....and she looks like she is smiling and happy....unfortunaly WH is not doing that.....boo hoo he isn't the center of friggin attention.
I would love to see the look on his face.
Your DD rocks.
God I hope I can sleep tonight......
You've got mail.
T2L,
Not sure what you're going through but if you're not posting it here I trust you have good reason. You have shown exemplary good judgment and strength throughout this entire ordeal. Just wanted to say I'm still in your corner, still keeping up with you, and still caring.
T2L,
Not sure what you're going through but if you're not posting it here I trust you have good reason. You have shown exemplary good judgment and strength throughout this entire ordeal. Just wanted to say I'm still in your corner, still keeping up with you, and still caring.
Awe thanks Lil Turtle.
Well Valentines Day is over. Actually did fine. Went back to the gym today for the 1st time since the A. I have been a gym rat since I was 16 and stopped after this. It was nice to get back lifting weights again. Love it! Signed up DS10 to and DD18 already had a membership so the 3 of us went together, it was fun.
Yes I am in contact with the IM's pretty regularly, they keep me focused.
Tomorrow 2nd PB will be given to H. It was written almost verbatim of all that Schoolbus has recommended. I have 2 exact duplicate cards with pink envelopes with the 2nd PB letters in them. The 1st one was sent today and will arrive at the BARF SHACK on Monday(never know who will check the mail
) and the duplicate will be given to him tomorrow and then PB. Hey SB if you want to see the 2nd PB just email at the address below. I am going to probably give it to him in the way SB suggested-although Neakie I really like AJ's idea LOLOLOL.
Tomorrow is his visit day. He'll see the kids after church and it'll give me some time to go to Victoria's Secrets and use the gift card the kids got me for Valentines Day. Not fun going there with children.
Hoping to plan a short weekend getaway next weekend. Waiting to hear back if it's going to work out. Hopefully it will. DS10 will be with my brother for the weekend having fun with cousins so I thought i could use the time for me plus H will be utterly mind boggled again that I am taking a trip and he has no clue where. I am hoping to get to go to Santa Barbara. I have some mutual Pastor friends up there I can stay with. They are lovely people just not sure if schedules will line up. Pray God opens a door for me to go I really really need an overnight to myself and its not far only about and hour and half away. With the kids here home schooled full time and no H here I am with them all hours of the day which I do love being able to be here for them and with them I just need a few away with the last 3 months.
H is still asking where I am when he calls nightly and I still leave a few nights a week. Left tonight so he could not depend on his wife to be here at night on Valentines Day so DD18 watched DS10 and took him with her to go pick up BF so H had to call the cell and he did his regular where is mom, well who is she with questioning.
Anyways I'm pooped, this is good, the gym wore me out, and that means great sleep LOL......
T2L-I finally have a few minutes to rub together and my cold is gone, so if you want another phone call from Washington A.C. let me know a good time. I'm around all week-end.
It was great talking with you again today! Your really an amazing person, thanks for your friendship and Valentines Day call!
T2L,
If Seahag reads the letter, I think she might try to call you or somehow reply. You are throwing a bomb into affairland, and she won't like it.
Just be thinking about that possibility, especially with delivering a pink letter. Which, by the way, I absolutely love!!!!!!!
SB
Hey, T2L:
I'll be praying for you. And I'm sure you will look FABULOUS when you hand over the letter. Just smile like you have the world's BIGGEST secret.
You inspired me (as did School Bus) and I sent WH a 2nd PBL via email yesterday. I know he and OW are out of town, but I sent it anyway because -- well -- what do I have to lose? He's Ding me, we're not communicating with each other, he's avoiding the kids, etc.
I sent a reminder that there is STILL a path home, that I'm protecting my love for him, that we want and need him home, that OW will survive if he leaves her, that I believe in marriage for life, etc. The last PBL was in October -- and I felt the urge to let WH know that despite him filing for D and being AWOL for 2 months, that I still have love left for him.
Sorry, MB purists if that's not the way I'm suppose to act. But-- again -- what do I have to lose? Plan B protects my love bank and just composing the letter reminded me that I do has an untapped reserve left for H -- not WH. So this communication, whether he reads it or not, added at least an ounce back in my LB because I was able to recall some great memories by digging deep in my soul.
Now -- No expectations and I won't be disappointed if nothing happens. I do hope/pray that somehow OW reads it and is upset that I still care for WH. She's a very jealous woman, and I need to use this knowledge to my advantage if I'm waiting out the A.
Today, I am taking the kids shopping for their Valentine's Day gifts. And I am going to pick out some clothes for myself. A belated Valentine's Day gift to ME.
Tomorrow 2nd PB will be given to H.
This is what is known as LBO in collective bargaining negotiations
LAST BEST OFFERAfter the LBO, you hunker down, you do not lift up your head to see which way the wind blows. Unless you are on a nature walk in Santa Barbara
This is what is known as LBO in collective bargaining negotiations
LAST BEST OFFERAfter the LBO, you hunker down, you do not lift up your head to see which way the wind blows. Unless you are on a nature walk in Santa Barbara
Aiy Aiy Captain! Hunker I will arrrrr!
H is running late to pick visit w/DS10., kinda odd, he's never late on his Sunday visit he won't be here to pick up DS10 til about 4 PM. I was trying to be gone when he got here but DD18 had to run out so now I have to wait til he gets here to do some errands.
Back later, but I'm sure all will go fine. Gonna do just what SB said, sweetly softly hand him the letter and then slowly close the door and tell them that this door could open again for him.
Sorry, MB purists if that's not the way I'm suppose to act. But-- again -- what do I have to lose? Plan B protects my love bank and just composing the letter reminded me that I do has an untapped reserve left for H -- not WH. So this communication, whether he reads it or not, added at least an ounce back in my LB because I was able to recall some great memories by digging deep in my soul.
Hi Holyheart & T2L,
I wish you both success with your second PBL's but more importanty, like you mentioned HH, it enabled you to find your love. I wrote a letter to WH too and I was amazed at how far I had to dig to find the love, but it's there.
Hold fast and strong and weather the storm. There will be an end to it and ultimately you are on the journey God intended for you, only he knows the ending.
Peace & love,
2M2L
Tomorrow 2nd PB will be given to H.
This is what is known as LBO in collective bargaining negotiations
LAST BEST OFFERAfter the LBO, you hunker down, you do not lift up your head to see which way the wind blows. Unless you are on a nature walk in Santa Barbara
T2L, I really think in your particular case, this is the absolute right move.
I'm glad SB helped with the wording and the delivery. I have no doubt it WILL impact him, whether you see the fruit or not.
Hi T2L-
I enjoyed talking with you on V-day as well. How interesting that our DD's have the same first name.
I was at DD's new house today helping with some initial cleaning-tearing out carpets, moving old appliances and cleaning very dirty floors. They have about 3 weeks of work and then they will be able to move into their first home as homeowners!
Your WH has been on my heart today so I've been praying. Nothing really specific, but when the Holy Spirit "nudges" me, I
I hope you get your week-end away.
Morning Y'all well thought I would post the 2nd PBL "after" it was delivered. I will post how it got delivered in a bit. Here it is below....
Mr. T2L,
I'm writing to you again because I just needed to tell you again that our marriage can be saved. Seeing you just those few times at home last month and having you ask me to spend the night has been really hard on me. Last week when you hugged me so tightly, and said wow you look great and that its good to see me is so very hard as well. Everyday I try to remember the great man I know you to be - the man who made me feel like the most beautiful woman on earth, the man who made me feel so protected that no one could hurt me, the man who was full of integrity and honor, the man who was completely a family man who wanted the best for his kids and would do anything to stop his children's pain. I still believe in you. I want you to know that I have not lost my love for you despite the adultery, and that I can fully forgive you.
I know it's probably hard to understand, but I can't see you or talk to you because it is the only way I can protect my love for you until Sea Hag is gone. Not seeing you protects the love I have for you so that we have a 2nd chance - and I still believe that is possible.
During this time, I have made many changes. I have made new friends, and learned a lot about marriage, relationships, and how to recover our marriage after an affair. This CAN work. There are so many people who have recovered their marriages from this and are now very happy. I know it will take some hard work, but it excites me to know we can create something new. We can be the kind of husband and wife our kids will look up to and are proud of when it's time for them to get married.
You might wonder if I expect for you to resume where you left off with church. NO, I do not. As your wife, and in obedience to God, I will respect whatever decision you make concerning that, because our first and most important ministry is to each other and our family. I KNOW, and I hope you realize, that God has never stopped loving you and is willing to meet you where you are.
I have also stepped down from my responsibilities as worship leader because of the family pressure I have been under. I took the entire month of January off. Guess what, you were right, I did enjoy it. I will still attend church but not in any leadership capacity. And some of the time, I would love to just accept your invitation to stay in bed with you on a Sunday morning and snuggle.
I know that you want some things in your life to be different. I want you to know that I now see that you were feeling like you were in a rut with church. Yes, you did express that to me, and I apologize for not hearing your heart and for not understanding what you meant. I now see that you probably felt really locked in and that you probably felt like you didn't want to deal with the controversy, or have to answer or explain to anyone for the time that you needed away from church. We can talk more about this as we rebuild our marriage.
Come home and let's start over. There is a way home for you. All you have to do to start that path is just leave Sea Hag, never contact her again, and come home. Think of the possibilities......I love you, your wife, T2L
You are such a tease, T2L. Hurry up and post. The suspense is killing me!!
That 2nd PBL made my nose and eyes sting.
I think I'm allergic.
You are such a tease, T2L. Hurry up and post. The suspense is killing me!!
She teases us all the time, doesn't she.
That's not very considerate, T2L.
Ok sorry y'all. Had to update my IM's 1st and give em da low down.
I will give you guys the basics of what happened and reserve for general population LOL.
I came home after my shopping trip to Victoria's Secrets with the gift card the kids got me for Valentines Day and he was at house. The 2nd letter was given to him. We did talk and for me it felt necessary because during the Plan A i never spoke about anything because I was advised not to by y'all. Just work the Plan A no talks about OW, adultery, relationship etc so I never talked about anything.
Oddly enough I was able to convey to him everything on that 2nd PBL and almost debated on whether to give it to him or not. A lot of things were discussed in detail, but they were things relating to the2nd PLB...things like church etc. I think many things were cleared up. He did tell me that he has at least made 1 trip home at 3 AM only to stop and turn around. He says he thinks about coming home all the time but doesn't think we get along anymore.
I did humor him in this and tell him that okay let's be generous and say we didn't get along 50% of the time(that's pretty generous too...we rarely fought) then that means that 50% of the time we got along. I say right now it is probably hard for you to see the good times but I can still see them. I still think it can work but I refuse to try while there is another one involved.
He says well we haven't been together for 10 months and were supposed to just jump into it. I say yes, I would rather jump all in and see if it works and if it doesn't then fine we gave our best(i said that know that HNHN will guide the way but he doesn't know that). He says isn't that kinda of ridiculous? I say well do you find my request of wanting to be the apple of your eye and the only one for you ridiculous? He says no. I say I am not willing to share. I say that I miss how you would light up when I entered the room and how you would come home each day and pick me up in the kitchen and say hey liddle lady and he kinda chuckles.
He says do i come home only for the kids I say I dont know Mr. T2L. He says well i have become more involved with the kids during the visits. I see now how i neglected them the last 2 years, it makes me feel really guilty. I say well if you want to be a better father then being a family is the best way, he says I know it would. I say its very hard for me when I see the kids hurting and DS10 crying. I say what can I tell him when he asks why you are doing this or why you won't come home.
The church stuff did get brought up and I conveyed to him what was on that 2nd PBL and that i understood and that it has taken all this for me to understand but now I know.
He asked what I got from Victoria's Secrets and I said I'm sorry that is reserved information for my Husband I cannot tell you that. He then says well you look really good. I say I know............then he finally says well aren't you going to say anything to me and I say oh I'm sorry those comments are reserved for my Husband and he again chuckles. He says well why do you still love me and I say I do not know and I laugh and he laughs and I say what did I always tell you when you were here? I said Mr. T2L I loved you because you loved me and nothing more.
I then tell him I finally feel like I have made amends and explained for all that I have wanted to and ask him if there is anything else he would like answered because I feel like I am done explaining. He says no. I say ok MR. T2L I do not want to see you anymore. No more fixing anything no more anything. I cannot see you until you decide if the family is what you want and if you should be so lucky that I am willing at that time. I say I am definitely wearing thin he say what do you mean i say I am emotionally running thin and don't have much in me left. I say so I can't see you anymore. He says who will fix your car or house I say I will or I will hire someone. no more i cannot see you anymore. He says are you trying to forget me and I say kinda and your problem is.....? He says well then you won't need me and I say yup what's your point?
I then say so if everything is answered and You have no questions I will go get your son so you may have your visit.
Ok I will tell you this much and I again have no remorse for this. He reaches out to me and asks for a hug. I say what for? And he says I want to say goodbye so I look at him and say ok. I give him a hug and I can feel his heart towards me. I then say Mr. T2L why aren't you coming home(at this point I am weeping) He says IDK. I say well if you are going to hug me this tight then Sea Hag should know your hugging me too. He says nothing. So I pull back and say I am going to get your son.
I get DS10 and hand him the pink duplicate card and he says what's this I say nothing really, he says is this another one(PBL#1) I say Mr. T2L you know me I am not a mean person its really ok. He says when did you do this and I say earlier today. He takes it and leaves with DS10.
That's the scoop.....
Oh T2L, I read your whole post holding my breath. Mr. T is soooooo close.
I believe.
Wow - I'm guessing that you must feel a lot lighter after that download of information, verbally and written to Mr T2L. It was a beautiful letter and I hope that Mr T2L digs deep and makes it all the way home next time...
He's a very lucky man to have you as a wife.
I hope you were wearing perfume when you hugged him, send him to OW with your scent on him!
I'm praying for Mr. T2L's deliverance and for the entire T2L family.
Oh T2L, I read your whole post holding my breath. Mr. T is soooooo close.
I believe.
Ditto
It was a bit of a tight rope walk for our girl ... demonstrating warm and welcoming changes and willingness to forgive and reconcile
while at the same time conveying the idea that there is a time limit to this marital limbo and getting the message to WH that our girl is making plans to live her life as a capable single woman
without him.
WH needed to realize he is making a decision to lose our girl if he fails to make a decision.
WH was 100% certain our girl would wait around for a long long long time. That certainty needed to be eliminated.
Well played T2L.
Now be absent so it has the most effect.
And he needs to be off your radar. No more keeping track of WH by any means. You're too busy living your life.
What day are you free for lunch?
T2L,
A beautiful letter - a love letter if there ever was one. It is truly what he needed to hear.
He will read it more than once, looking to see if you really mean it. Coupled with the conversation, he will know you do.
I love that you asked him why he doesn't just come home, and his response, "I don't know."
This response is important - because he did not respond with "I am in love with two women" or "I love her" or "I just can't be with you" or "We've grown apart".
I don't know - that's what he said, and it is probably true - because his state of mind is such that now he is driving HOME in the middle of the night and wanting to return. He can't do it because he didn't know for sure that you would accept him. Now he knows you are waiting, but his window of opportunity will ultimately run out. You told him to CHOOSE, and do it fast.
I can't say for certain what he will choose, but the final offer letter certainly places him in the position of having to make his move. He knows now that he cannot be a cake-eater the rest of his life. He has three choices: you, her, or neither.
And chances are, the trouble in affairland is directly related to the fact that he hasn't chosen HER yet, and she is pushing and griping.
You aren't - you just wrote a LOVE LETTER.
Remember that. And stick to your plan B as much as humanly possible. He is at a breaking point, and you saw your H peek out. He's still in there.
SB
T2L, I hope you are shrouded in black crawling on the floor and totally dark!
When you gave him the Plan B letter you should have handed him a pair of ruby slippers he could put on when he was with the sea hag and tell them to click his heels and say "I WANT TO COME HOME".
Never mind giving him that big hug and hoping you scent his body with your perfume to send him home with your special fragrance; you should have told him something was wrong with the vacuum; brought it out and point the hose in his direction, turn it on and mistakenly add about 8 vacuum suck marks over various parts of his body and let the sea hag wonder about that!!!
Does anyone else see the swirling, sucking black hole on the Left Coast? Well, that's Ms T!
Ello!
Nuttin new. Dark PB. Eating a large bowl of Chocolate brownie ice cream LOL. My reward for day 2 at the gym! Yipee.
Hugs to all...
Does anyone else see the swirling, sucking black hole on the Left Coast? Well, that's Ms T!
Only on MB would that be a huge compliment.
Does anyone else see the swirling, sucking black hole on the Left Coast? Well, that's Ms T!
Only on MB would that be a huge compliment.
LOL Turtle...
And anywhere else, Empress of the Darkness would be sinister.
Well on the bright side I'm sure Thru this H probably called me a swirling sucking black whole...so now I actually get to be one LOL!
And....the Sea Hag is the swirling sucking black HOE! LOLOL
Sorry couldn't resist LOLOLOLOLOLOL Gosh I crack myself up!
Just poppin on real quick. Wanted to show y'all my friends web. Its really cool. I told em I would share.
Pacific Oracle
Hope you're doing OK today. I feel badly that your WH reacted the way he did to the letter. I know -- no expectations. Maybe it will just take time for your message to sink in. Stubborness, pride, entitlement, stupidity combined in a WH must be a hard nut to crack.
As for me, I'm having 2nd PBL remorse. I should have never sent that email. WAY out of line for me in my sitch. That Valentine's Day crap just got to me, I guess. Shoulda known better....
You were smart, T2L. You sought and got the advice from the best. I'm impulsive and obsessive and pretty messed up with my thinking these days. The stress of the D starting combined with discovering all the debt has got me in panic mode.
Calm down, HH. Turn it over to God. I know, I know.
Keep the faith, T2L. I think you still have a good shot at recovery!!!
Whew...extended school stuff with DS10, he got a little behind so we have tests and things to make up. He had Swim class yesterday which he loved because it was in the rain(no worries its heated). He thought that was particularly cool. And then we were off in the evening for Jui Jitsu class.
I am probably going to update maybe a few times a week as opposed to daily. Back to the grind. Have gone to the gym several times now and its helping as far as keeping my head clear and I just feel better overall.
Gotta go fix that darn fafsa application for daughter that I guess I messed up on.
C'ya.......
T2L....when did you start DS10 in martial arts....we were considering it for my DS but backed off it when he got into some scuffles over the summer (even though he held his own pretty good) .
He is now starting baseball and shows promise. But I would like him to take some martial arts to learn the great lessons it teaches.what's your advice as a martial arts mom.
Hey there!
I love Jui Jitsu. It is in my opinion of course, one of the best martial arts as its mostly about submission. You can avoid many fights just using submission. Some of the other martial arts are more for show, IMO, and cannot be practically used if your child would need to defend themselves. There are children in his class that are about 5 or 6 as well. They do so good at it too. I highly recommend it!
Hey did you say you are in Cali?
Yuppers we are up in the wet soggy monterey area ;D.
Well guys, kinda bummed. Got news back that I won't be able to do the Santa Barbara trip...
Didn't work out schedule wise. I was kinda looking forward to it but she did say however that we could plan it in the next month or so.
So I guess I'll be hanging at home while DS10 is gone. I would have loved to be able to have notified H that I would be outta town, but maybe next time.
Off to make dinner....
No reason you can't be out of town - how about a day trip?
You can always hop in your car and go to Vegas for a long day! Try your luck!
As for me...I am California Dreaming!!
16 days to go...................
too bad I am coming there after you leave.
well looks like we won't be going to vegas after all so I will be around too. DS is going to his dads that weekend so maybe I can sneak away.
How far are you from Ventura County?
4 hours away i think.....it's easy like driving to sacramento.
T2L, get your butt in the car and get out this weekend!!!
go girl. You have an opportunity...Seize the day..
T2L, get your butt in the car and get out this weekend!!!
go girl. You have an opportunity...Seize the day..
LOL I know I wanna go get away for the weekend! Most of my friends live out here so its not really a get away. I mean I have a friend in Arizona but its a little too far to drive about 6-7 hours, at least by myself. I'm thinkin I'm thinkin......
4 hours away i think.....it's easy like driving to sacramento.
Oh that's not too far, that's drivable.
Solvang is one of my favorite local get away destinations.
http://www.solvangca.com/1/photo/index.html
I do like Solvang and its really pretty close actually.
T2L, just looked at the pic of Solvang...really cool. I would like to go, but I could hear D15 -- everything is old!
T2L, just looked at the pic of Solvang...really cool. I would like to go, but I could hear D15 -- everything is old!
I know I know, my DD would say the same thing. But its only an hour from here so when you come out we can go if you want.
T2L, that clothing line is really cool!! I showed my teenage boys and they REALLY liked the clothing...Will they be exporting to other countries? I live in S.A..
Well if you feel like coming up this way we will have an extra bed available....and since its the weekend F will be at work at night and sleeping during the day.
Hey I can play tour guide barbie for you! Plus there is a lot to do here night and day.
Well guys, DS10 looks like there is a chance he may not go to his uncles this weekend. He says he's not feeling that well and his nose is getting plugged. I just popped him in the bath and gave him some Tylenol. Anyways, guess I'll have to plan something again next month.
But thanks for all the ideas and requests!
Ok gotta tend to lil guy in the tub....
bummer, I was hoping that you get a much needed break.
Hope S10 feels better. It is that time of the year! take care.
How is S10 feeling? Wish you could have got away. Try for next weekend. Go go go. You need it.
Yeah he's feeling really yucky. Congested really bad. He's pretty upset he really wanted to go since he has 2 cousins there. My brother just told me that one of there munchkins just got sick too so we are going to try re-plan in a few weeks.
So for the next few days gonna be nursing a sick kiddo.
Hey posters, talked to T2L -- she cannot post because she is having computer problems.
She did wash her car today and change her air filter! Will be on when she can...
But you cant ring cos you only get a service message...
Cool, changed her own filters. I can't do that!
Hey T2L, just checking in hoping that all is well.
Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.
Know you are keeping busy with the family. take care.
Yes staying busy. DS10 is getting over being sick. Still congested so I am watching to be sure he doesn't get a sinus infection.
Well some new things have happened. H has said he will not renew the lease with the Sea Hag and is trying to plan to come home. He is very fogged and I have to say I am terrified. I am not sure that he is ready actually, and it really stinks because I figure the conditions will expose this.
I am working on my final conditions per the advice of my IM's.
Well, that's exciting! How did all this come about?
Wow, T2L! How exciting - and scary. Be very careful. I don't have alot of advice to offer - you have some of the best working with you and I will defer to them.
I would like no more than to see your H defog and return forever to create a happy family with you.
Prayers and hope going up from this neck of the woods.
Take care.
As always praying for you.
As far as H "he has a plan" wayward; that is a good thing in his foggy addled mind, but as far as YOU are concerned "You have a plan" which is the one he needs to follow. :twobyfour:
Dear Wayward, please sign on the dotted line. You and OW have a "planned breakup", WTH is that. Now is the time for those boundaries; he will fight everything every step of the way. But it has to be on your terms, not his.
He is coming out of the fog, but he doesn't know he just stepped into the storm. Before "securing" job, before "planned breakup" his M has to be #1
We want this for you. God knows you deserve it. One step at a time girl, one step at a time.
He and the freaking stupid Sea Hag have spoken and they are having a "planned break up" and that she supports his decision in whatever he wants to do
This is horse manure.
The fog-heads call this "closure" <~~~ said with a sarcastic nasal tone
Personally, I am praying for an almighty blow up with them both. One that leaves him reeling in disbelief that he was willing to lose EVERYTHING for her.
THEN that the reality of it all hits him smack in the face.
He says I really need to focus on getting another job right now so I cannot give you a day on exactly when I am coming home just know I am working on it. Let him "work on it" and do whatever he thinks he needs to do for himself. In the meantime, figure out what conditions YOU require before you let him come home.
It sounds like he thinks he's calling the shots (he'll tell you when he is coming home). I suspect that when he realizes he can't just waltz in whenever he thinks he's ready, that you have conditions, he'll hit the roof and you'll see another fit of petulance and "You're not the boss of me!"
Stick to your guns, figure out your requirements (NC letter, MB weekend, live on his own and "date" you for a while, whatever) and do not waiver from them.
Set the bar high. The last thing in the world you want is for him to come home with a ginormous sense of entitlement, acting like he's doing you and the kids a huge favor. After all you've been through, and after doing such a spectacular job, you deserve a truly committed partner that is willing to do the very hard work of creating a fabulous marriage. Don't sell yourself short. Keep an attitude of "Yeah? Prove it."
I'm cautiously optimistic
:crosseyedcrazy:
Sea Hag :twobyfour:
she supports his decision in whatever he wants to do
No, no, no. She does not really support this decision. OW's either break up themselves, or try any ploy to drag it out as long as possible.
Your WH will still try to hold onto her and the family, whether he realizes it or not. That's why your boundaries are so important. Even if he says he's on board and starts implementing them there's still a risk of a relapse. If he isn't willing to accept all conditions at the beginning, chance of a relapse is around 150%.
This is a great start, but just remember you're in PB until his unconditional surrender. If he seems like he might be there, you peek out and he's not, duck right back down again.
He's not serious enough about this yet, but it's a good start. The A is not dead, but it has Cheyn-Stokes.
Also, even if he refuses your conditions at first, it isn't your only chance to save the M. Trust in your boundaries, as any M you have where one or more are broken, is a sham anyway.
Stick to your guns. You hold all the cards. Am I leaving out any cliches???
Set the bar high. The last thing in the world you want is for him to come home with a ginormous sense of entitlement, acting like he's doing you and the kids a huge favor.
Am I leaving out any cliches???
It ain't over 'till it's over.
Am I leaving out any cliches???
It ain't over 'till it's over.
Draw yourline in the sand, stay Straight as an arrow, Smarter than a whip, Smart as a cookie, Strong as an ox. You want The whole shebang, The whole nine yards, The whole kit and kaboodle
The full Monty, The whole enchilada.
So Bite the bullet and be Bad to the bone. A force to be reckoned with. Get on your high horse and Turn the tables.
Don't let him Beat around the bush or get all bent out of shape.
Remember waywards are Not the sharpest tool in the shed,Not the brightest crayon in the box, Not the brightest bulb in the marquee, they are not playing with a full deck, are dim bulbs, Their smoke doesn’t go all the way up the chimney, they are a few bricks short of a load and as blunt as a spoon.
Look on the bright side
You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs
What goes up must come down
It’s not over ‘til the fat lady sings
When you have smashed lemons you make lemonade
You can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs
Stick to your guns
Keep your nose to the grindstone
Keep your ear to the ground
All is fair in love and war
Don’t blow your top.
Don’t drop the ball.
Rome wasn’t built in a day.
No pain, no gain.
No guts, no glory.
Actions speak louder than words.
And above all
Don't worry, be happy. We love you
It ain't over till the fat lady sings.
Well, I've been thinking about your situation, and all he is saying is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He is working on a plan? That one oughta be good. He can't give you the details? He is going to make his job his number 1 priority?
I would go back to a dark Plan B. You deserve more than this pathetic talk about reconciliation. The guy is smart - so turn off the volume and watch the action.
. He is working on a plan? That one oughta be good.
Yeah, B, he's working on a plan, a plan with hag's blessing
T2L, not to steal the sitch, I called...and she is out again today! Will try again in morning. God has a plan for whatever reason for yet another delay.
I'll throw in my knee-jerk $0.02... but in actuality I defer to your IMs.
My $0.02... This *reeks* of entitlement! I'd be really tempted to say, "Ok, you do what you gotta do... I may or may not still be here when you and Sea Hag enact your "planned breakup." And then I would start moving on in ernest. Not necessarily burning any bridges, but certainly not waiting by the phone or anything. Pretty much done with him, unless he comes crawling back all remorseful and all.
It would take a whole mess a' remorse to clear out that smell of entitlement.
Of course indulging in my little fantasy may or may not be the best thing for you to do. LOL
Apparently I left out quite a few cliches.
Apparently I left out quite a few cliches.
Leave no stone unturned
you can dress a pig up like a queen but it is still a pig (or seahag)
Yeah thats pretty funny oh wise Lildoggie.Okay so I shortened my conditions to try and go straight to it with out fluff. Short and sweet. Here is what I think I may go with.
Mr. T2L,
I love you unconditionally, I hope that you can see that in me.
The Sea Hag must be erased from our lives so that you would have to live a double life and make huge lies to make it possible. The kids and I need you to protect us from a 3rd time. This is what I need done by you to feel protected and comfortable for you to return home.
No contact with The Sea Hag forever. Write a letter to Sea Hag explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and that you want to recover our marriage. Give it to me when you are done so I may ensure it's mailed, this will build trust.
Change Cell phone number, share passwords to email accounts, access to your lap top and basic transparency, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties, no holding on you have this access to me too. Tell me if contact is made.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
Use joint family bank account so that money cannot be hidden again a 3rd time. All payroll deposits will be made into joint bank account. No finances in any form will be given to the Sea Hag. I would like to do the bills together.
Do necessary things to establish trust. Trust is not blindly given, it is established for the protection of the kids and I. This means thoughtful things such as phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Calling when late etc.
Read book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley this is our road map to recovery.
I love you unconditionally,
but if we are to make full recovery for our M, there has to be conditions so that I can keep my love for you intact and learn to trust again. The Sea Hag must be erased from our lives.
The kids and I both need you to protect us and keep us safe. You have a path to come home, this is my path for me to feel protected and comfortable for you to return home.
No contact with The Sea Hag forever. Write a letter to Sea Hag explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and that you want to recover our marriage.
We will mail it out together, so it ensures me and will build trust in my love for you again.Change Cell phone number, share passwords to all email accounts, access to your lap top and basic transparency, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties,
For me to recover, I need for you to do this. Without this our M will not be based on trust. Sleep at home every night
unless you are with me or our kids. Show proof of lease being ended. We both use joint family bank account so that money cannot be hidden again a 3rd time.
All finances will go through this account. We will share billpaying together. Do
anything necessary things to establish trust. Trust is
no longer blindly given, it is established for the protection of the kids and I.
Planning a weekend at a MB seminar or if that is not possible, doing phone counseling. random thoughts and suggestions...we are your loudest cheerleaders.
I'm pretty sure you just killed two birds with one stone.
I love you unconditionally, I hope that you can see that in me.
Does WH love you unconditionally?
I don't think the requirements list is the place for you to express this sentiment. You're saying "unconditionally" while laying down conditions.
Not the right time to say that.
This all sounds too familiar....very similar to the vomit tst spewed when he decided to come home the first time.
Now I am not saying that I don't think this is good. I think it is very good.
What I am saying is this is not the time to fudge one iota on what you NEED from him to allow him access into your life again.
I believe that he is hurting and wants to come home. BUT right now he is hurting for himself. That equals worldly sorrow. Wait for him to HURT FOR YOU. Then you will see Godly sorrow.
Except nothing less than Godly sorrow.
If you are patient and stand firm, I think you are headed to recovery. If you are not patient, I think you may well find yourself in a false recovery.
Hang tight. It's coming.
Are you going to require an MB weekend or MB counseling? I would suggest something like this on the requirements list: marriage counseling/retreat with the counselor I choose.
Two things:
1. Your letter- if you are going to say "I love you unconditionally", I would add, "But, there are conditions to having you in my life" and then make your list.
2. His little speech was nauseating to me, and I say that as a FWW. When I begged my BH for a second chance, there was no attitude of entitlement or like I was doing him a favor.
Personally,
I would not give him the letter right now. Let him make some changes first. If you give him a list of conditions, it may make him think that Sea Hag is an easier deal.
Just stay dark.
JMO
BTW, I am having a bit of a down on my coaster ride (woke up sobbing from a nightmare of yet another FR and the feelings are hard to shake). So I came on MB this morning and prayed that God would show me a miracle here because I was feeling so discouraged in all the affairland garbage.
I read for awhile and then left here even more discouraged.
tst texted me later in the day to tell me to pray for T2L because WS says he wants to come home. I started crying and told tst (who knows my mind is in a dark place today) that I asked God for a miracle on MB today.
Maybe this is it
I believe that he is hurting and wants to come home. BUT right now he is hurting for himself. That equals worldly sorrow. Wait for him to HURT FOR YOU. Then you will see Godly sorrow.
Very nicely put SMB!
I believe that he is hurting and wants to come home. BUT right now he is hurting for himself. That equals worldly sorrow. Wait for him to HURT FOR YOU. Then you will see Godly sorrow.
Very nicely put SMB!
Thank you, Jean. I only know because I witenssed both.
T2L,
I defer to your IMs but I think you're putting way too much into the list of requirements, plus you're doing too much of the heavy lifting. He needs to prove his commitment. Like Jayne says, he still reeks of entitlement.
My .02 on the conditions, and my feelings will not be hurt one whit if you toss my ideas into the trash bin.
Mr. T2L,
I love you unconditionally, I hope that you can see that in me.
The Sea Hag must be erased from our lives so that you would have to live a double life and make huge lies to make it possible. The kids and I need you to protect us from a 3rd time. This is what I need done by you to feel protected and comfortable for you to return home. Share with me your plan for erasing her from our lives.
No contact with The Sea Hag forever. Write a letter to Sea Hag explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and that you want to recover our marriage. Give it to me when you are done so I may ensure it's mailed, this will build trust.
Change Cell phone number, share passwords to email accounts, access to your lap top and basic transparency, remove all her and/or her friends phone #'s from your cell phones and cut all ties, no holding on you have this access to me too. Tell me if contact is made.Explain to me what precautions you will take so that Sea Hag, or any other woman, will never intrude into our marriage again. I need complete and total Openness and Honesty from you, so please make that part of your plan.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
Use joint family bank account so that money cannot be hidden again a 3rd time. All payroll deposits will be made into joint bank account. No finances in any form will be given to the Sea Hag. I would like to do the bills together.
Do necessary things to establish trust. Trust is not blindly given, it is established for the protection of the kids and I must be earned. This means thoughtful things such as phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Explain to me your plan to earn back my trust.
Read book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley this is our road map to recovery. (I might replace this with MB weekend and all followup assignments but do whatever you're comfortable with -- just be sure you set the bar HIGH).
I love Jean's post. I agree with her.
Oh T2L, I've been out of touch all day and just caught up on your thread! Praise God, I see a tiny leak in the dam and I'm praying HARD that it virtually explodes into a giant flood... that it happens quickly.
My DH was also very foggy when he came home. He came home, not because he necessarily wanted to, but out of desperation. It was doubly hard on our recovery because I didn't have a clue about recovery. You've been given some powerful tools through MB. Your greatest and most powerful tool though is getting down on your knees now (and I know you're there).
I pray AGAINST any words spoken by SeaHag and that all WH will hear is blah, blah, blah... that the scales fall from WH's eyes and he sees and recognizes the demonic evil that lies within SeaHag... that he RUNS from her as fast as he can, as his vision clears.
I'll be praying in my sleep tonight dear one.
My WH also had a "plan" each time he came home.
The last great plan -- sneek his stuff out of OW's house while she and her kids were attending a wedding rehersal so there'd be no confrontation (like the usual suicide threat). See, OW's sis was getting married that weekend and OW was the maid (ho) of honor. Perfect time for him to disrupt her family event, miss the wedding, and hope everyone from OW's family would hate him.
And with every false recovery, I felt like I was "negotiating" a hostage release. My rule should have been -- NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH A TERRORIST. NEVER NEGOTIATE WITH A WAYWARD. And I tried different tactics each time...believe me!
And as for a scheduled break up -- I heard that one before, too. Beware of the words "OW just wants me to be happy. And if it's back with my family, then that's fine with her. She'll stay away." Bull poop. It made me look like I just wanted him back out of obligations, but OW really CARED about his happiness and that she loved him enough to let him go. NOT FAIR.
Just beware that your WH will be different. Some of the OW's ickiness will have rubbed off on him. His words, his tastes, even the food he eats -- lots of changes. Be prepared.
GOOD LUCK AND GODSPEED. I WILL PRAY A ROSARY FOR YOU!!!!!
Apparently I left out quite a few cliches.
I was just playing the fool
Sorry
lol I hadn't even realized I was spewing cliches!
Um........ Doesn't Dr. Harley say there is NO such thing as unconditional love? At least for us mere mortals?
There ARE conditions on your love. You may still care for him as a person, MAYBE, if he continues to live with Sea Hag, but you won't continue to love him as a wife, will you, after he's lived with her 50 years? What if he totally abandoned your kids? I can think of all sorts of unmentionable things that he could become... would you still love him? I mean other than the, scuse my ignorance... filio? Agape? The love with which we are to love every human being? Would you still romantic-love him?
In fact that's one thing Steve Harley told me. Love, spousal love at LEAST, IS conditional. Coulda sworn I read it in one of the books too.
So, yeah, kill the unconditional love.
cliche ... hmmmmm.... don't count your chickens before they hatch?
This all sounds too familiar....very similar to the vomit tst spewed when he decided to come home the first time.
HE. IS. NOT. READY. YET.
When he is, he will respect the conditions you have already imposed, including using the intermediaries. I have spent more than 2/3 of my time here on earth learning how to deal with uncooperative men, and I'd bet my
life on this one. He wants to come back, while doing as little as possible to make it happen. "Worldly repentance," as SMB said.
If it walks like a duck...
tl
Well y'all, I think these are my conditions. Tried to keep it short as H really is a get to the point kinda guy, always been that way. Do y'all think there should be more explaining on the why I need these conditions emotionally or leave just as it.
I am nervous having Read SAA a conditions because then he will know everything. Once I give them to him I may change user names because he has this thing about privacy, but even pre-A he was that way and it would be a LB if he knew. I don't have a problem him knowing the last half but up to this point I am uncomfortable with it.
I guess I probably seem nuts because I'm not jumping for joy. I feel he will most assuredly be very angry about the conditions. I know that I must value myself by the conditions, just scary that its the death blow. I'm sure he will say I am controlling him once again....As crazy as it sounds, I am wondering his motivation for coming home. He says its for the kids, but I wonder if its for financial reasons and visitation reasons and maybe his plan isn't no contact although he said no contact is the goal, ya know just so things are easier for him. That's what my gut says but now that I'm a BS I could possibly think that about him forever KWIM... IDK...Anyways thanks for starting the thread Pep it did help to hear from others experiences. So close but really so far
See below.....
The Sea Hag must be erased from our lives completely and forever. The kids and I both need you to protect us and keep us safe from further hurt. Share with me your plan for erasing her from our family's lives and protecting us.
To recover there must be No contact with The Sea Hag forever. Write a letter to Sea Hag explaining you will not ever communicate with her again and that you want to recover our marriage. Give it to me when you are done so I can be sure it's mailed, this will build trust.
Change Cell phone number, share passwords to all email accounts, access to your lap top and basic transparency and being an open book. Explain to me what precautions you will take so that Sea Hag, or any other woman, will never come into our marriage again. I need complete and total Openness and Honesty from you to be able to heal and trust again.
Living at home full time no sleeping anywhere else unless me and/or the children go no matter how far away you work. Remove your name from apartment lease and showing proof of it.
Use joint family bank account. All payroll deposits will be made into joint bank account. No finances in any form will be given to the Sea Hag. I would like to do the bills together.
Do anything necessary things to establish trust. Trust is no longer blindly given, it is earned. This means thoughtful things such as phone calls and accessibility to you at any time. Explain to me your plan to earn back my and our children's trust.
Read book Surviving An Affair by Dr. Willard Harley this is our road map to recovery.
HE. IS. NOT. READY. YET.
When he is, he will respect the conditions you have already imposed, including using the intermediaries. I have spent more than 2/3 of my time here on earth learning how to deal with uncooperative men, and I'd bet my
life on this one. He wants to come back, while doing as little as possible to make it happen. "Worldly repentance," as SMB said.
If it walks like a duck...
tl
TL,
Yeah I think he may not be ready either...
Why even try to come home ya know. Its like this man is "planning" to come home but its all about protecting her it seems like.
I feel like he may be coming home for convenience. IDK. It doesn't feel like he wants to come home to me. Isn't that a silly thing to say when my H just told me he is planning to come home?
Schoolbus, when I spoke to him a few weeks back he would say things like, people will think i am just tucking my tail and running home. Huh??? He's made several reference similar to this like its not a manly thing or its a weak thing. I sometimes think he just wants to prove he's the man and nothing more.
Well either way, I feel good now about setting conditions and giving them to him where I was really confused on what or how much just this morning. I am worth it. I know this. Funny how your retarded little mind will dictate to you by your emotions and fears what you should accept and devalue your self. I am feeling firmer about them. I definitely wish things would have went differently with him saying hes coming home. I hate to always be the one standing up, sometimes you doubt your self and start to think you are a control freak, but I know my worth. I wavered a bit but down inside I knew it wasn't right to go along with what he offered. It made me feel sick and uneasy inside.
Anyways, I'm pooped, 3 tests and studying today with DS10....
{{{Hugs}}}}
It's still all about him, T2L.
He wants to come home because he wants a clean home, cooked meals, the attractive house, wifey, and 2.5 children in the 'burbs. His tastebuds have tired of Turkey Ramen.
If you're not comfortable with mentioning SAA, just put "Particpate in a counseling program of my choosing until I have regained confidence in our marriage."
You might put a line at the end, like a closing, saying "I realize I cannot control you, and you will choose to live your life as you think best. These are conditions I need, just for me, before I am ready to consider reconciliation. You do whatever you need to do."
I'm *glad* you're not jumping for joy. He's nowhere close to ready. He wants it all to be over and done with, and the hard work has not yet even begun. YOU, however, are doing FABULOUSLY.
T2L,
I am glad to see that you are not "jumping for joy".
Someone has just offered you the rabid dog that bites children, who is incontinent and who eats his own feces and then wants to lick your face.
If you are looking for a stray dog to take in, pass this one by.
Personally, I am willing to cut a WS a little more slack BEFORE they leave the home. After you have moved out, terrorized your kids and your BS for months/years... I don't have much sympathy for you. Fog is one thing, when you take it too far for too long, that is something else.
For the record, I had been moved out of the family home for 2.5 years when I begged my BH for a second chance. And like SMB said, it wasn't about MY pain at that point, it was about my FAMILY, and whether I could ever repair the damage that I had done.
Work on your list but keep it close to your chest, poop eating, rabid, kid biting dog isn't ready to hear it.
Why even try to come home ya know. Its like this man is "planning" to come home but its all about protecting her it seems like.
No, it's not about protecting her. It's about alleviating HIS pain. He IS hurting. And because he is a typical self-centered, selfish wayward, he wants HIS PAIN to stop. If he comes back now when it's still all about his own pain, he will waiver and probably break NC, if he ever really goes NC.
Wait for him to hurt because YOU hurt.
Wait for sweetly broken and wholly surrendered.
I feel like he may be coming home for convenience. IDK. It doesn't feel like he wants to come home to me. Isn't that a silly thing to say when my H just told me he is planning to come home?
No, it's not silly. You recognize that it would be Mr. Wayward coming home, not Mr. T2L. Wait for Mr. T2L, your HUSBAND.
Schoolbus, when I spoke to him a few weeks back he would say things like, people will think i am just tucking my tail and running home. Huh??? He's made several reference similar to this like its not a manly thing or its a weak thing. I sometimes think he just wants to prove he's the man and nothing more.
I think the last battle a wayward fights is with his pride. Some will never give up their lover...pride NOT OW.
Well either way, I feel good now about setting conditions and giving them to him where I was really confused on what or how much just this morning.
If you have not sent those conditions, I have something for you to consider.
I wrote my conditions based solely on what I NEEDED from him to be able to consider ever being vulnerable to tst again. Then I put them away in case the "right time" ever happened (and I really thought it never would).
When tst contacted me, it was with an apology letter, a rather detailed, heart-felt one. It had a question at the end about the possibility of reconciling.
The basic message I sent back was, "it is a HUGE risk to open my heart to you again and I am not sure I am willing. What are you willing to do?"
His response, which was the only one I would have accepted was, "I'll do whatever it takes."
So...the time had come...
I sent him my list so that he could see what "whatever it takes" would mean. He replied back, "I will do whatever it takes."
I suggest you hold on to your list of requirements, because I really don't think his heart is ready to receive them. And I believe giving them to early might possibly be a mistake.
So, test the waters with him. Ask him what he is willing to do?
T2L,
I am glad to see that you are not "jumping for joy".
Someone has just offered you the rabid dog that bites children, who is incontinent and who eats his own feces and then wants to lick your face.
If you are looking for a stray dog to take in, pass this one by.
Jean, what an accurate description!
Personally, I am willing to cut a WS a little more slack BEFORE they leave the home. After you have moved out, terrorized your kids and your BS for months/years... I don't have much sympathy for you. Fog is one thing, when you take it too far for too long, that is something else.
Me, too.
For the record, I had been moved out of the family home for 2.5 years when I begged my BH for a second chance.
Wow! Jean, I had no idea.
Work on your list but keep it close to your chest, poop eating, rabid, kid biting dog isn't ready to hear it.
ITA
Given too soon, and he will blow right over it and use it as justification for staying wayward.
You could just respond with...
Please go to (insert link to MB weekend registration) and register us for the Marriage Builders weekend retreat. This program provides the path I need to heal our marriage.
When tst contacted me, it was with an apology letter, a rather detailed, heart-felt one. It had a question at the end about the possibility of reconciling.
The basic message I sent back was, "it is a HUGE risk to open my heart to you again and I am not sure I am willing. What are you willing to do?"
His response, which was the only one I would have accepted was, "I'll do whatever it takes."
Ooooooooohhhhh.... I *like* this!!!!!!!!!!!!
I *really* like this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...
Also, let me just throw something out there. It seems to me a whole lot of success stories include a false recovery. I know that's painful, but do you think it improves the overall chances of success? It seems there's more cases here of recovery after a false recovery than of Plan D after a false recovery. And a lot of cases of Plan D which had no false recovery... I haven't done a tally, just saying that's how it seems to me.
T2L,
I wouldn't tell him you aren't sure if you are willing to open your heart up to him, because your Plan B#2 has already said that you are willing (which is good).
But I do think that before you give him a list of what you need, I would throw out the question "what are you willing to do to heal our marriage"?
That answer to that question may give you a peak into whether there has been a heart change yet?
If his answer indicates that he may have had the "awakening", then send him what you need and ask him if he will meet that.
I suggest you hold on to your list of requirements, because I really don't think his heart is ready to receive them. And I believe giving them to early might possibly be a mistake.
So, test the waters with him. Ask him what he is willing to do?
I sooooo agree with this.
Ok so hold on to the requirements. I have no idea when he is coming back. I know its between now and April 1st. I don't want him to show up at my door step today with all his stuff so what to do with that?
But this is the bad part, I have had a few conversations with him since Sunday. I know :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:
We have had issues with saving our home and on spot decisions that needed to be made that could not have ran fast enough through email or snail mail which is our only form of communication to him at this point. Things like actual caution sale dates within 1 month and legal paperwork that has to be done quickly so the kids and I are not thrown out of the house. It seems for now that with new legislation we may be able to save it.
And in addition to all that, it seems his employer may possibly be going bankrupt so H has been on job search so he let me know about our medical coverage and also weather to expect any money in 2 weeks for basics like food and gas. His employer has not given him any work for most of the week which affects how much financially is give to us in a week and a half. Had I known that little line what are you doing to heal our marriage line I would have used it then.
I think you are right the conditions may be too early to give to him. I just don't want him to show up at the door, as I have no idea when and then tell him. He thinks he's all set to go as I didn't ask to much when he told me. I would rather he had advance notice. If the opportunity presents it self I think I will ask him. That should clear things up right away because as of Sunday he said I'm telling you I am coming home that is a start and I thought you would be glad about it. He may be visiting his kids either today or tomorrow. He asked kids to reschedule his visits the last 2 days because he was sick.
I have no idea when and then tell him.
Ask to see his "written plan".
( He won't have one.)
Tell him you want everything "in writing".
Then CLOSE THE DOOR and don't try to convince WH how much you love him as you close the door. That is what you've been doing lately, so stop it now. WH needs to convince YOU how much he loves YOU.
what were the requirements in your Plan B #1 & 2 letters for returning home.
Oooh, deja-vu............
I went into Plan B, complete with letter in September. After WH tryed to break Plan B for several weeks, he went completely dark.
Then, 2 days before Christmas, he called me at work and announced he was in the process of moving back home.
I was deliriously happy until I posted the news here. Melody and others asked if there was no contact with the OW. Of course, that shocked me, because I had emphasized that in my Plan B letter. I assumed that he was going to meet my conditions.
So I took off from work, came home, and he already had his stuff in the house. I asked him about NC with the OW, and he replied that he would work on that AFTER we were back together and reconciling.
I ended up faking him out by going to court that day, trying to get a RO, which was denied. But I brought the denial papers home and waved them at him, and he moved all of his stuff back out.
WHEW, that was a close one.
Just remember, in our state, you can't legally keep him out unless you have a court order.
"I need to see your plan IN WRITING before I decide if you can move back home. Email it to my IMs."
Puts hands together and bows in acknowledgment of a master. Where's the emoticon for THAT?!
tl
as of Sunday he said I'm telling you I am coming home that is a start and I thought you would be glad about it.
T2L, my DH said EXACTLY the same thing when he came home for good. I was supposed to be happy that he was coming back.
Oh please please say what Pep suggested about the written plan and emailing it to the IMs. That would be a HUGE test of his intentions.
Just remember, in our state, you can't legally keep him out unless you have a court order.
But i thought if he left the home and has another legal address he has no rights. He has been gone since last May and had a new legal address since August.
Just remember, in our state, you can't legally keep him out unless you have a court order.
But i thought if he left the home and has another legal address he has no rights. He has been gone since last May and had a new legal address since August.
If WH moves back in when you tell him you don't want him there - file for a legal separation. Don't discuss it.
T2L, my DH said EXACTLY the same thing when he came home for good. I was supposed to be happy that he was coming back.
Oh please please say what Pep suggested about the written plan and emailing it to the IMs. That would be a HUGE test of his intentions.
I really do not think he will contact the IM's. HE wont. Now I could see him meeting my conditions before I could see him talking to them. He says he is highly embarrassed and he hates others knowing what he has done. What if he came to the door and said yes to all conditions, would I send him away if he didn't go thru the IM's?
But I do like telling him I want to know the plan. Sunday all he has said is I have a plan, let me work on it. I am coming home, I can't give you specifics and right now the highest priority is not this, it's being sure I have employment or I can't feed you guys or have a home for you.
If WH moves back in when you tell him you don't want him there - file for a legal separation. Don't discuss it.
Okay this is a reason I need to ask to his plan now. He can go live at his mothers and did make mention of it when I started asking questions on Sunday. I hate the laws of this freaking state!
No, he can legally come back anytime. My WH had been living in a home he rented with the OW for over a year. But he had the right to move back in our home anytime he chose.
I was just lucky to fake him out. That is the main reason I finally filed for divorce - because my WH felt so entitled to do whatever he pleased. Once I filed, he had to stay away.
But I do like telling him I want to know the plan. Sunday all he has said is I have a plan, let me work on it. I am coming home, I can't give you specifics and right now the highest priority is not this, it's being sure I have employment or I can't feed you guys or have a home for you.
YOU have allowed him to be in control again. Of all your head space, of all your emotions, of all the decisions.
SLOW DOWN and smell the chit!
You CAN tell WH to contact IM's - or don't bother!
That was always a condition in your plan B letter!
WH needs to display some form of humility or you are wasting away all YOUR valiant efforts up to this point.
I'm sorry T2L, but don't settle for the fantasy you playing out in your head. Don't let fears rule your decisions. Be willing to
only settle for the real thing!
I'm praying for you and your family!
No, he can legally come back anytime. My WH had been living in a home he rented with the OW for over a year. But he had the right to move back in our home anytime he chose.
I was just lucky to fake him out. That is the main reason I finally filed for divorce - because my WH felt so entitled to do whatever he pleased. Once I filed, he had to stay away.
Ahhhh Man! Okay I am hoping what he said to me about 6 months ago is still in his head. He told me PRe-SAA, that he stays away to keep the peace but he could move back in. I did tell him tho during PA that I contacted an attorney and that they said once he's gone for 5 months he can't come back and he has a legal address proves it. LOL maybe he will believe it.
But I do like telling him I want to know the plan. Sunday all he has said is I have a plan, let me work on it. I am coming home, I can't give you specifics and right now the highest priority is not this, it's being sure I have employment or I can't feed you guys or have a home for you.
YOU have allowed him to be in control again. Of all your head space, of all your emotions, of all the decisions.
SLOW DOWN and smell the chit!
You CAN tell WH to contact IM's - or don't bother!
That was always a condition in your plan B letter!
WH needs to display some form of humility or you are wasting away all YOUR valiant efforts up to this point.
I'm sorry T2L, but don't settle for the fantasy you playing out in your head. Don't let fears rule your decisions. Be willing to
only settle for the real thing!
I'm praying for you and your family!
"I need to see your plan IN WRITING before I decide if you can move back home. Email it to my IMs."
I repeat - if he is unwilling to email his "super plans" IN WRITING to the IMs - he's going to be unwilling to make necessary changes to be a real husband to you.
I'd concur that Pep is the sensei but since I don't know how to spell it, I'll bow to the master.
NOT the mistress, that has wretched connotations on these boards.
I really do not think he will contact the IM's. HE wont.
He WILL, if he really wants to come home and you don't give him any other way in the door.
See, you are already fudging on requirements here. You are already giving him an inch.
He WILL take a mile....and your heart and your children's hearts and your memories, and anything else he can rip apart.
Now I could see him meeting my conditions before I could see him talking to them.
But this IS one of your conditions, is it not? You just keep letting him NOT meet it.
He says he is highly embarrassed and he hates others knowing what he has done.
The is PRIDE. You don't want a prideful man back, do you? You want a humble man. If he is humble, he will use the IMs.
That is an ACTION that DEMONSTRATES his heart. Remember me telling you to think of what actions demonstrate the character you need to see.
He is capable of using the IMs, yet refuses. That means he is refusing your requirements and you should not even be discussing reconciliation with him until this FIRST STEP is met.
What if he came to the door and said yes to all conditions,
Well, using the IMs IS one of the conditions. So if he comes to the door, then he automatically is NOT saying yes to all the conditions and you can close the door and not fret about laying your heart out there to be stomped on. You will already know his motives are still not pure.
would I send him away if he didn't go thru the IM's?
Yes, because it is one of your conditions.
And, more importantly, it is one that the wayward has defiantly REFUSED to meet.
This is HUGE to me because it DOES show his intent.
He is still screaming, "I WON'T DO IT YOUR WAY, YOU CONTROLLING B)#(*%!"
That means he won't do recovery your way either....NC letter, transparency, MB work, etc.
He is already SHOWING by his ACTIONS that HE is NOT sincere.
Sunday all he has said is I have a plan, let me work on it. I am coming home, I can't give you specifics
This sounds soooo much like foggy tst bsing me.
I want to come home but I have to do it MY way.
You need to keep that heart of yours sealed up because right now, he could do A LOT of damage.
and right now the highest priority is not this, it's being sure I have employment or I can't feed you guys or have a home for you.
This is very telling to me, too.
You don't want him back until his highest priority is YOU and his marriage.
He is making excuses to cake eat a bit longer.
Stop giving him the fix that he is desperate to get.
He is crashing, and when you talk with him, you give him his fix to KEEP ON GOING.
Stop it!
Let him crash!
Seal up the cracks, T2L.
Quote:master
I prefer "sensei."
Turtle, ya beat me to it.
Ms T, how I hope and pray you listen to all the excellent advice you are getting. Put on your Cape of Power (mine is red, but it comes in all shades and sizes), and firmly claim control over you and your life.
Do you really think if he wanted to come home that one requirement more or less would make him or break him? Not on your life!!!!!!!! If he really wanted to come home, he would do
ANYTHING you asked of him.
It is unconditional surrender or nothing at all. Trust me, there is nothing in between that you want. It has to be one or the other.
You also keep breaking your PB over and over again. Unless one of the kids is dying, you need to stop that. It makes you appear weak. You need to be strong on every front before he will believe you mean your boundaries.
Until you are serious, he won't be.
Ask God to cast out your fear. If you let fear rule you, you will make a mistake, one that will cost you dearly. For your sake and your children's, you need to get ahold of yourself and seize full control of you and your life.
Keep him away until he is ready. He isn't ready yet.
*dawns deep purple cape* *stretches arm above her head and snaps her fingers once as she says* YES because you are so FIERCE girlfriend.
FABULOUS DARLING. YOU ARE FABULOUS!
Not having a death wish, I chose not to use the term "mistress" to describe the invincible Pepperband! :MrEEk: But you'd think, having grown up surrounded by Japanese, that I could've remembered "sensei" on my own. I guess I don't watch enough karate movies.
I'm back playing on the same harp again, though, and it has nothing to do with my daughter and my friends being the IMs. Agreeing to use them is an outward symbol of an inward humility, a brokenness, a relinquishing of pride. I think Tst and SMB can tell you that without that attitude, a FR is coming down the pike, as big as a freight train, just as fast, and every bit as deadly.
tl
This is all good, T2L.
I think he WILL defog.
He just hasn't yet.
Patiently stand firm.
You know in the story of the prodigal son, I don't think it mentions whether the dad made any moves to bring his son home, only that when he showed up he was welcomed with open arms.
I wonder if the dad would have welcomed him home if the son had showed up cocky, sullen, wanting to sweep everything under the rug (let the past be the past!) or demanding to call the shots on their reconcilliation.
I think the fact that he showed up totally humble and even willing to work as a servant for his father (to do whatever it took) probably spoke volumes to the dad as to his son's heart at that moment and THAT's why the dad was willing to welcome him home.
Lots of similarities, don't cha think? There's a lesson in there somewhere.
Okay y'all, sorry wanted to update last night but my internet kept bumping me off.Well he visited the kids yesterday. When the visit was over I spoke to him. Here's how it went. I wish I had a secret recorder sometimes I forget things especially when I am trying to his several points. I almost thought about writing everything out but then it probably would not have seemed genuine....I said I know you wanted to come home and I am really grateful about that especially for the kids but I think maybe since you mentioned you want to concentrate on your job that you should just go ahead and do that and we should probably pull back and you should go to your mom's first. He said I did mention that to you and i said yes you did, but I wanted to have you back that I started to settle. He said I don't want you to do that either, I know you have been through hell. He said I thought you would be happy and I am sure its what you have been waiting for. I say yes it sure is, but just going along with it made me feel sick inside and I know that truly I am a catch and I am worth it. He says I know you are why do you say that? I say I guess maybe to remind myself.I say what are your "plans"? He says I am not going to tell you just know that I am working on things. I say well what it feels like to me is since you refuse to tell me your plans you are protecting her and getting her blessing and when you decided you did not want this marriage you sure didn't plan it you walked out. I say you are protecting her and you are not protecting me.I say what are you willing to do to heal our marriage, he says IDK. I have so much on my plate right now with this job, I am not sure if the new job is going to pay as much and I am trying to save the house and feed you guys. I can see how people have nervous breakdowns. I say I wish I could be there for you but I can't. He says with all this stress I am no good to anyone. I think sometimes that I was never meant to be a husband and father because I am so selfish. He says I don't want to hide who I am anymore and be super nice like I used to be. Right now even if I came home I would be a mess and I do not want to do that you to you guys.I say I want you to change your cell phone number but you have acted like its something I need to work thru. I say you have what 5 friends to your name or did I over shoot that? He says yeah I have 1 and we laugh. I say then whats the issue. I say you have this "planned break up" that sounds like your getting her blessing. I say you think this is all just gonna go over easy. He says no, its going to be a mess and people are going to be hurt. I say so if she is going to be hurt you actually think she wont try to make contact? I say she must be erased from our lives.He says you never trusted me and if I came home it would be worse-now to a degree this is true but it was when we 1st got married and in our early years, so he's pulling historical history. I was a bit paranoid. Were were 19 when we got married and i didn't trust but the older we got and the more we both became mature I didn't really have too many worries. I say well I cannot just give you trust what are you willing to do to build trust? He didn't know. He says well I told you when I get home it won't be like what it was and you said you understood and knew. I said yes but ya know what I am glad you want to come home for the kids but I asked the kids if they wanted to have you home just for them but not really for me. He says why would you do that. I say to see how they felt. I tell him your son asked me why you don't want to come home for me too. He said no mom I don't want him home just for me. I said your son wants a family not just his dad home for him.I ask him what are you willing to bring to the table because I know what I am. I say until you can offer me something until you are willing to bring something to the table I just think you should go to your moms. You go do what you need to do work on your job and find out what you want and if I am still open to it we'll go from there. We hug and I say take care of yourself. So he says guess I am cut off again right and I say yes but not because I want it to be this way.I think that's everything. So I did it. Only God knows what will happen now, but I feel like I am worth it. So for now the coming back home has been put off by me. Necessary but feels like
How on earth did he ever become like this? {{{{Sigh}}}} I know he may decide that its not worth the work but at least I know my daughter knows what was said and hopefully if anything was done by that she learned to never settle even for your husband that you love so much.
Hear thunderous applause as Elvis (oops wayward spouse), leaves the building.
YOU did the right thing and the last paragraph is most telling. We are the examples our Ds learn from. You are showing that you are a strong beautiful woman - inside and out; and today go look in the mirror and say 20x "I am a Goddess". (doe that sound queenish!)
I know you are anxious, I know you are sad, but in this case quick fixes do not work. Go look at the pepperband sitch about false recoveries. It is easier to be on your own than to keep back slipping. Hang tight. breathe, one step at a time.
God has a plan for you and your family and girl it ain't on your timetable...
Why do you do this to yourself?
I thought you were in Plan B?
I agree with T&L....this is a true setup for a FR.
(shaking head and bewildered)
Why do you do this to yourself?
I thought you were in Plan B?
I agree with T&L....this is a true setup for a FR.
(shaking head and bewildered)
Ditto.
T2L, I know you get sick of hearing it, but you need your little hiney in a DARK PLAN B.
REFUSE to "hear" anything that comes from any source other than IMs. PERIOD.
Stop talking to this man.
Why do you do this to yourself?
I thought you were in Plan B?
I agree with T&L....this is a true setup for a FR.
(shaking head and bewildered)
Yes mam I am in Plan B. I guess I did it because I felt like it was heading towards FR too. I had been reading the FR thread that Pep just started and realized he can't come home and he was planning on it.
After reading some of the comments from posters on here by Jean and Peggy and others too, also realized he was no where near being able to read a conditions list either. So i felt I would rather tell him to go to his moms and work it out than to show up on my door and read conditions that he absolutely is not ready for. Plus I took the advice and asked "what are your plans". He wouldn't answer which was enough of an answer for me.
Ditto.
T2L, I know you get sick of hearing it, but you need your little hiney in a DARK PLAN B.
REFUSE to "hear" anything that comes from any source other than IMs. PERIOD.
Stop talking to this man.
Yes I am in Plan B and will be dark again. I could have sent communication thru the IM's to stop his plan of coming home but chose to tell him to his face so he could see my genuineness. I realize that I do not need to prove my genuineness but that because he is so messed up and fogged in, he feels that my letters are games so I knew I would tell him to his face closing the door to his plan home, at least for now. He's not ready.
But its done, going dark again.
"He says I don't want to hide who I am anymore and be super nice like I used to be. Right now even if I came home I would be a mess and I do not want to do that you to you guys."
Entitled, fogged out, and not even close to the bottom yet!
DARK PLAN B!!!
SDW
T2L, my prayers are going up for you.
I don't think you fully understand what dynamics are occuring when you allowed WH to bypass the IM's again yesterday.
You BOTH made HUGE withdrawals from each others Love Banks!
I'm not sure you see that this is happening each time you allow contact to occure as it has over the past week.
I know he continues to refuse the IM's, but did you bring this up yesterday? This is the only thing you should have discussed. You could have avoided delivering the bad news yesterday and would have avoided the huge LB's going back and forth.
Please know that I'm not trying to beat you up about this......just want you to see how serious this is..... You cannot allow yourself to be the bad guy, nor can you allow your own love to dwindle away.......
((((T2L))))
I know a disappearing Plan B dark plan you could do.
Keep in mind I can get some free rooms in the bright light city. Disappear. It will do you good also for a change of scenery instead of watching all of his madness. Just let me know and we can plan something.
take care
Hi T2L, this was up on Queenies site from Mark1953. I think it really is worth reading in your sitch. take care.
Remember my flashlight analogy?
Where you point the light is what you will focus on. If you point it into the woods you will not see much, what you do see will be difficult if not impossible to understand and you will also lose sight of the path ahead of you and lose your way.
An interesting thing about walking along a path by flashlight is that it only illuminates what you need to see right now. It doesn't show you what lies ahead 100 yards or 100 miles...It lights your way one step at a time.
What's around the bend? Who knows? Do you trust God to take care of that too? Then focus on the path immediately ahead, take another step where He is leading you and don't worry so much about what is happening outside of the circle of God's light. Even if you can't see, He can and already knows what He will do to handle it.
What happens in the wilderness is not what you need to worry about. You only need to worry about your path through the wilderness.
God will be done with your husband when He is done with him...
And He'll be done with you when He is done with you...
You stand on a hill overlooking the road to what God promised. Your husband is still back in Egypt, a slave to his own ways...
Keep going forward and don't try to turn back to look for him. Remember what happened to Lot's wife? For your husband to be where you are now he has to travel where you have been and he has to run faster to catch up. But the sooner you get to where God is leading you, the sooner YOU can rest and wait while God prods him along. Even if he gets lost in the wilderness by taking his eyes off the path again, YOU will be safe because God already brought you through it.
When Israel was wandering in the wilderness they weren't alone. God didn't SEND them to the Promised Land, He LED them there. His Presence was before them by day and stood watch over them by night. Everyone could see His Glory. As long as everyone stayed fixed on Him, they couldn't get lost. But some looked at their surroundings and their circumstances and lost sight of God and the goal. An entire generation died in the wilderness because they lost their focus on the One who was leading them and chose not to trust Him though they had already seen many miracles in their lives.
The Lord is with me; I'll not be afraid.
Disappear. It will do you good also for a change of scenery
*hand up waving frantically*
I know something to get you away for a couple of days.
T2L,
I have not posted to you, having only read your thread on and off, but this breaking of Plan B is a large step backward for you. Your WH now knows HE's got the power.
You need to shift this back to you. It matters not one IOTA what he thinks of you communicating by email, so long as he complies. It matters not if he thinks that you are the coldest fish, the iciest Ice Princess or the biggest BIOTCH. NONE of that matters right now. From what I have read here, and from my own experience with my WH, trust me, you WILL be forgiven when you have a repentent man standing before you, being completely TRANSPARENT with his "Plan".
It's bullchit, all of what he says. Do not listen. Talking to a wayward is like trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing gum. It's useless. You get your fix, he gets his, and you have just lowered the bar.
Step back, slow down. Get outta your head and just follow the plan, right down to him respecting the conditions of your Plan B letter.
You are right about one thing, too. You don't want him coming home just for the children. It is VERY important that he chooses you. When those kids are grown and gone, you want your own marriage to be strong and fulfilling. If it's all just for the children, it will fall like a house of cards. Some people are okay with that. I never was.
If you choose to continue on outside of a super dark, very strong plan B, you are lowering the bar.
Lastly, try your best to take care of YOU.
Just my $.02.
Hang in there, T2L. You've got some great advisors here. Follow your plan, trust it. It will not steer you wrong, but a wayward most certainly will.
added...
there is soooooo much wrong with what your WH is saying, I don't even have the patience to quote it. Just know that he's lying EVEN WHEN HIS LIPS AREN'T MOVING...trust your plan
I say what are your "plans"? He says I am not going to tell you just know that I am working on things.
Hmph... whatEVer.
He's still out there T2L.
Betcha he's surprised that you weren't falling all over yourself about him coming home.
He probably walked away from that door scratching his head wondering, "what just happened?"
Good job on telling him like it is (although I agree with the others that you may have set yourself back a few doing it this way.)
Anyway, back into the darkness. More to come. I guarantee it.
Talking to a wayward is like trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing gum.
Talking to a wayward is like trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing gum.
Ya know I love you, but I have to say you're in a fog of your own right now.
It may not be too late to stop this train wreck, but the only way you have to avert it is to go dark and STAY dark.
If you go back to square 1 with your PB: using the IM's (you did have some, right?) and only the IM's for all communication, and accepting NOTHING from him that does not come through the IM's, being as dark as a black hole only darker, if you IMMEDIATELY begin doing EVERYTHING Plan B is meant to be...
IF...
you do all that, you may be able to salvage this.
Right now all I can see is sabotage.
He asked to speak to me Sunday after his visit with the kids. He said he has "plan". The word "plan" here is being used to tell you only that he is thinking about things. Nothing more. There is no "plan" in the way that you consider the term and in the way it is meant. He means that he is thinking that he needs to stop what he is doing, he wants to stop. But the concept that there is a true "plan"? Nope.
He kept talking in circles He was talking in circles because he was expecting you to take over the conversation. As I have pointed out in the past, this man is waiting for YOU to ask HIM to come home. His pride is standing in the way of his making the open request, and also standing in the way of his saying, "I HAVE BEEN AN IDIOT AND I AM SORRY - CAN I COME HOME AND WILL YOU FORGIVE ME." Until he is able to do that, you should NOT take over the conversation for him - you should do lots of listening - But in reality you are in Plan B and should not be talking to him at all. And if you must talk to him, it should be only about emergencies, and this sure wasn't one.
and finally I say can you just please spit it out you are talking in circles. He says that he is planning on coming home. Which is where his expectation was that you were going to jump up and down. Good that you didn't, and that you held on to your expectations about the SeaHag and what he needs to do.
He and the freaking stupid Sea Hag have spoken and they are having a "planned break up" and that she supports his decision in whatever he wants to do There are two things here. The "planned break up" could mean a couple of things. I'm not sure about this, but here are some things that pop up for me. He could be trying to tell you SHE will not let him go and that he is having trouble with the "stalker factor". He doesn't want to have to deal with this ongoing problem when he comes home, and he is trying to break up with her and she will not accept it. While he SAYS she supports him in whatever he decides, you must remember he is in a situation where he is still trying to protect her (however sick that makes everyone here feel). Another possible interpretation of this is that he has financial things that she will not let go of, and the two of them have not worked out. While this sounds strange and sickening, he does still have some moral code and he is trying to work through this situation in a way that he feels right about it, and finances will enter into it. Of course, there is the obvious, that he has entangled her emotionally, and now he realizes what a complete mess he has made of things - and for that very same moral reason he must do some things to separate from her in what he sees as a more organized and compassionate way. While that is unpopular and ugly to us, in his wayward mind, this has validity and may be what he is thinking and trying to express by the "planned breakup" term.
I try and ask how he intends on doing this and he say he is working on it and he has a plan. He says he is not renewing his lease but that right now his most important thing is securing his job issues. The company he is working for may be going under. Some of the share holders have started looking for jobs and they are bouncing payroll checks. He says I really need to focus on getting another job right now so I cannot give you a day on exactly when I am coming home just know I am working on it. Now, IF this fell into your conversation right where you put it - THIRD - I buy this. And from the length of the interaction here, I do. The rest of his stuff was vague and crappy sounding. His "stuff" is built on money, T2L. So of everything he is talking about, I am going with my gut on the separation from SeaHag to be more based on HIS part about money, and on HER part with some emotion and LOTS of money issues. So the upshot of what he's telling you is that you need to work on finances, and that he is doing that, too. From what you present here, and what his focus looks to be, the luvvy duvvvy crap is fading fast and the harsh reality is caving in on the affair land fantasy. IF YOU ARE DARK, SHE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO MEET HIS NEEDS NOW. HE IS CAVING IN UNDER THE STRESS AND HE NEEDS YOU. DO NOT GIVE HIM A FIX. THIS, IF NOTHING ELSE, TELLS YOU THAT TRUTH.
He would not give me details on their conversation. Simply because he is not ready to stop protecting her. He will, when he is done with the fog. It will happen, and he will feel like a fool. He already does, but his pride is standing there in front of him. Not long now, though, because SeaHag just isn't doing it for him, and HE IS NO LONGER DOING IT FOR HER. SHE WANTED A RICH GUY. Guaranteed.
See, now that he has been spending lots of time at your house, and you've sent that letter bomb, SeaHag is sick of this mess. To top it off, your WH is worrying her sick with the money thing. And the lease. And what she THOUGHT would be the ex-wife who now is the MAIN topic of conversation - and SeaHag is tired of this whole mess.
To her, that fantasy of this man supporting her is crashing. That fantasy of YOUR kids disappearing has just gone up in a puff of smoke, because this is one daddy who isn't walking away. And SeaHag wants to be front and center. Only, T2L is somehow still on this guy's mind - but she's dark.
ONLY YOU KEEP TALKING TO HIM. STOP IT. THE LESS HE SEES YOU THE WORSE IT GETS OVER THERE. TURN UP THE HEAT, WOMAN!!!!
IF HE CALLS, DON'T ANSWER. YOU KNOW IT ISN'T AN EMERGENCY. HE CAN LEAVE A MESSAGE. HAVE YOUR IM'S EMAIL HIM.
If he won't use the IM's, it doesn't mean YOU don't have to. You are as guilty of not using them as he is. Own what you are in control of, and control it.
Tighten the cracks on YOUR side. Because as his cracks grow, you have more of a shot at this thing working out.
SB
Everything SB says makes absolute sense. So heed SB's advice. And I will, too. Us Plan B'ers need to stay dark and pray.
Okay y'all, I am heeding the advice and I am going dark...again LOL Probably will update every other day, I don't think nothing new will take place and when Im dark nothing goes on.
No contact today. Did however receive all his bills here at the house again. Guess he switched over his address already. Not sure where he is going to be living so I will probably send mail with the kids during their visits.
IM's, don't have much info to pass at moment but for future not sure where we are going to contact. When he leaves his employer on March 6th or sooner, he will no longer have a computer and new job does reports old fashion paper way and if by chance he does move to his mothers she has no mail box and had mail service canceled there several years ago. She mostly gets her mail at her boyfriends in another city even further than her home which she only occasionally stays at. So, I am not sure how we are going to contact him. His 2 brothers support me and have not spoken to him in 10 months his other brother lives in Guam and his mother well she almost lives everywhere and no where. I'll have to think. He has 1 friend he keeps in contact with and I don't really know him. IDK.
Your public library almost certainly has computers with internet access. He can contact the IMs if he wants to.
He asked to speak to me Sunday after his visit with the kids. He said he has "plan". The word "plan" here is being used to tell you only that he is thinking about things. Nothing more. There is no "plan" in the way that you consider the term and in the way it is meant. He means that he is thinking that he needs to stop what he is doing, he wants to stop. But the concept that there is a true "plan"? Nope.
He kept talking in circles He was talking in circles because he was expecting you to take over the conversation. As I have pointed out in the past, this man is waiting for YOU to ask HIM to come home. His pride is standing in the way of his making the open request, and also standing in the way of his saying, "I HAVE BEEN AN IDIOT AND I AM SORRY - CAN I COME HOME AND WILL YOU FORGIVE ME." Until he is able to do that, you should NOT take over the conversation for him - you should do lots of listening - But in reality you are in Plan B and should not be talking to him at all. And if you must talk to him, it should be only about emergencies, and this sure wasn't one.
and finally I say can you just please spit it out you are talking in circles. He says that he is planning on coming home. Which is where his expectation was that you were going to jump up and down. Good that you didn't, and that you held on to your expectations about the SeaHag and what he needs to do.
He and the freaking stupid Sea Hag have spoken and they are having a "planned break up" and that she supports his decision in whatever he wants to do There are two things here. The "planned break up" could mean a couple of things. I'm not sure about this, but here are some things that pop up for me. He could be trying to tell you SHE will not let him go and that he is having trouble with the "stalker factor". He doesn't want to have to deal with this ongoing problem when he comes home, and he is trying to break up with her and she will not accept it. While he SAYS she supports him in whatever he decides, you must remember he is in a situation where he is still trying to protect her (however sick that makes everyone here feel). Another possible interpretation of this is that he has financial things that she will not let go of, and the two of them have not worked out. While this sounds strange and sickening, he does still have some moral code and he is trying to work through this situation in a way that he feels right about it, and finances will enter into it. Of course, there is the obvious, that he has entangled her emotionally, and now he realizes what a complete mess he has made of things - and for that very same moral reason he must do some things to separate from her in what he sees as a more organized and compassionate way. While that is unpopular and ugly to us, in his wayward mind, this has validity and may be what he is thinking and trying to express by the "planned breakup" term.
I try and ask how he intends on doing this and he say he is working on it and he has a plan. He says he is not renewing his lease but that right now his most important thing is securing his job issues. The company he is working for may be going under. Some of the share holders have started looking for jobs and they are bouncing payroll checks. He says I really need to focus on getting another job right now so I cannot give you a day on exactly when I am coming home just know I am working on it. Now, IF this fell into your conversation right where you put it - THIRD - I buy this. And from the length of the interaction here, I do. The rest of his stuff was vague and crappy sounding. His "stuff" is built on money, T2L. So of everything he is talking about, I am going with my gut on the separation from SeaHag to be more based on HIS part about money, and on HER part with some emotion and LOTS of money issues. So the upshot of what he's telling you is that you need to work on finances, and that he is doing that, too. From what you present here, and what his focus looks to be, the luvvy duvvvy crap is fading fast and the harsh reality is caving in on the affair land fantasy. IF YOU ARE DARK, SHE WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO MEET HIS NEEDS NOW. HE IS CAVING IN UNDER THE STRESS AND HE NEEDS YOU. DO NOT GIVE HIM A FIX. THIS, IF NOTHING ELSE, TELLS YOU THAT TRUTH.
He would not give me details on their conversation. Simply because he is not ready to stop protecting her. He will, when he is done with the fog. It will happen, and he will feel like a fool. He already does, but his pride is standing there in front of him. Not long now, though, because SeaHag just isn't doing it for him, and HE IS NO LONGER DOING IT FOR HER. SHE WANTED A RICH GUY. Guaranteed.
See, now that he has been spending lots of time at your house, and you've sent that letter bomb, SeaHag is sick of this mess. To top it off, your WH is worrying her sick with the money thing. And the lease. And what she THOUGHT would be the ex-wife who now is the MAIN topic of conversation - and SeaHag is tired of this whole mess.
To her, that fantasy of this man supporting her is crashing. That fantasy of YOUR kids disappearing has just gone up in a puff of smoke, because this is one daddy who isn't walking away. And SeaHag wants to be front and center. Only, T2L is somehow still on this guy's mind - but she's dark.
ONLY YOU KEEP TALKING TO HIM. STOP IT. THE LESS HE SEES YOU THE WORSE IT GETS OVER THERE. TURN UP THE HEAT, WOMAN!!!!
IF HE CALLS, DON'T ANSWER. YOU KNOW IT ISN'T AN EMERGENCY. HE CAN LEAVE A MESSAGE. HAVE YOUR IM'S EMAIL HIM.
If he won't use the IM's, it doesn't mean YOU don't have to. You are as guilty of not using them as he is. Own what you are in control of, and control it.
Tighten the cracks on YOUR side. Because as his cracks grow, you have more of a shot at this thing working out.
SB
Thank you...thank you...Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!!
Hey T2L, if you get a chance stop by my sitch. Think work exposure might be brewing today.
Looks like your H will be in his own Plan B unless he hits the library. Will be good for him and give him some quiet time to think things through. :twobyfour:
It's very simple:
if HE wants for any exchange of information whatsoever to take place, HE can contact the IM's to let them know how to reach him.
Very simple.
It.
Is.
His.
Problem.
Or at least it is if you are serious about PB.
He would not give me details on their conversation.
A thought just occurred to me. Could she be preggers?
hey T2l if your on i might be driving to L.A. today....have to take a dog to be bred in higland....of course the stud can't meet halfway.....just like a man *sigh*....let me know if your not busy?
Yes mam I am around can you contact me at the email address below.
BAh stupid dogs.....seeems little miss hot pants got out last night and came back dirty and out of breath.....now we have to wait until her next heat cycle for breeding. So we won't be getting our puppy in april/may.
but my email is Tigeressts@gmail.com. I believe when hope is here next month I will be coming down....just gotta find out the who's whats and whens.
I will be that neck of the woods from 3/13 - 3/20. Would be great. Planning on seeing Holyheart also.
sweeet....I will be staying either with my cousin in reseda or with LA sunshine girl in van Nuys.
You might be getting SOMETHING in April or May...........
Haha not my dog.....my friends. If she has goyotes (they live in the country) they will find homes for the litter.
Haha not my dog.....my friends. If she has goyotes (they live in the country) they will find homes for the litter.
Goyotes???
Cross between a gargoyle and a coyote?
Cross between a gentile and coyote???
what???
no a golden retriever and coyotes
"Cross between a gentile and coyote???"
Soooooo.... is a chupote a cross between a chupacabra and a coyote? LOL It sounds like something to eat. "I'll have two chupotes and a gordito with a diet coke, please."
"Cross between a gentile and coyote???"
Soooooo.... is a chupote a cross between a chupacabra and a coyote? LOL It sounds like something to eat. "I'll have two chupotes and a gordito with a diet coke, please."
Damn now I am hungry....what's the nearest taco bell?
Mornin' Y'all,Well I am super hesitant to post my weekend, so i'll give basics as I am feeling a super weak, I guess. I am forcing myself to update at this point. And for the record Yes I am in Plan B, at least thats the goal. Please no massive 2X4's not feeling strong enough, I can handle gentle correction if needed.
I don't feel I have lost my love for my H which actually is starting to bug the crap out of me. I have questioned myself over and over on all my motivations why I would even consider still going. I have questioned condependency, I have qeustioned my fear of being alone Ihave questioned if I have a problem starting over. I don't feel I am comdependent, and I am not bothered by being alone as much as I was in the beginning I have adjusted to it and I know that I am fully capable of starting over and beng quite happy because usually that is my nature. The ONLY thing I can say is for some reason God has given me grace in my heart for Mr. T2L, its something I cannot understand. I hate using "Christianees" quotes but I cannot figure any other reason why I have not stopped this madness. I am fully aware I can in my mind shut it off and get pissed and say forget it. But God has always used my heart and when the grace to do something is removed from my heart usually so it the desire for it and I usually cannot do that thing for another second. I am hoping that is what will happen in this case and I guess if for some off reason it doesn't then I can at least wait til DS10 turns 11 in Oct and hopefully that will give me more protection in lovely california. Of course if he had been abusive and there were any safety reasons then Mr. T2L probably would not get the chance he is getting now.
Anyways here is the basics of what happened. Saturday H called DS10 and said he will arrive at 12:45 for visit. I said wonderful I will be gone at 12:15 for a 12:30 hair appointment. I asked DD18 if she would stay til her dad got here to pick up DS10 so I could go get my hair done. So I leave at 12:15. I am quite happy because getting my hair done is a thing with me and I am trying a new less expensive stylist. I have had the same stylist for 11 years and had been driving an hour to go see her. Anyways I am sitting in the chair with those lovely foils in my hair(can you say buh-bye gray hair LOL) and I get a text.I read the text and I am dumbfounded. DD18 say OMG mom dad just walked in the house and he is now eating your leftover pasta and Ice cream. She said he parked on the street so we didn't see him pull up. I say ok there is nothing I can do I will be here for a while. I am at the salon for just short of 3 hours and I go home. We usually don't lock the doors in the day becasue we all come and go and in the last 10 months he has NEVER just walke in he has always called or knocked. The kids have been told from now on the door is to be locked.
He is there cleaning my pool and garage again. I decide to go to my room and wait and see if he leaves after a while. Well an hour later he takes DD18 to get her oil changed in her car. I shut the garage as kinda of a go home hint. WEll they come home and he asks DD18 to open the garage. I finally decide I need to do something about this.
I really didn't want to because I knew in my heart it would LB but he has done this so many times that I finally decided this has to stop. I walk out to the backyard and I as nice as I can say what are you doing? He says he I am visiting my kids and cleaning the garage an pool. I say well I can do the pool myself and he says well you didnt and its dirty and I say i chose not to do it and why do you care you do not live here. He says well maybe it makes me feel good to do it. I say this is not normal people who are split up do not hang out at each others house. He says well we dont have to be like them. HE says I don't undertand why my son won't tell me how he feels, your brainwashing him. I say that is not the truth i have tried he is nervous and says he can't.
Okay this may be a LB...I say this is completely unfair that you come and prance your as$ all around my house like a donkey and carrot. I say I am uncomfortable with you doing this. He says well I want to visit my kids and I say well get them and go he says I can't becasue of the company vehicle and then he says can't you just go to your room and I say NO I am tired of being a prisoner in my own home. I try to explain how I feel and he says I treat him like a counselling session and a child. He has said this before, I am not sure If I communicate well but at this point I think he may have a hard time dealing with emotions. Pre-A he said women crying makes him uncomfortable. He says well I was going to change your daughters brakes but Im going to leave I say great I will get your children to say goodbye to you.
So I bring the kids out front they hug him and I say by the way kids now that he is in front of you tell your dad. Do I tell you he loves you theysay yes and I say son, have i tried to get you to talk to your dad he nods and I say and why wont you he says I am afraid. I say now you know the truth.
At this point its the 4 of us outside at the door. HE then starts talking about the things I did and i say kids I have apologized and asked him to gforgive me but I cannot go back in the past. DD18 says dad its really pretty simple if you ask me. Come home. try. change your cell phone number. DD18 then says to my absolute amazement dad what are you willing to do to build trust he says nothing, because your mother never trusted me in the 1st place. I say at the beginning of our marriage we were very young and I didn't. I didn't probably till the last 8-10 years because your dad became trust worthy. At this point I have the look of confusion on my face and he says I hate when you get that worried look and I say well its not worried its absolute confusion.
Anyways a few more things were said and he says I am going to my moms and the kids say goodbye and we walk in the house.
I had no idea this was going to happen and really ws shocked becasue I told him last don't come home and that whole convo when I asked about his plans and go figure out what you want. I surely didn't expect the dude to walk in like he actually lived her. We're keeping our doors lokced from now on and I am guessing I have LB'ed him so badly by asking him to leave he may now want the other woman more. I really really did not to ask him to leave but knew it was going to end up another late night with him there.
So planning to go dark AGAIN as lame as that sounds. I didnt intend to not be, just went out to get my hair done and he walked in. THe kids said they stared at each other with HUGE eyes like OMG but I didn't want them to say anything to him its not their problem to deal with.
If he hates me so bad why does he come here. He says its for the kids, I have been told thats cr@p. IDK he may hate me now. Anways your updated. You know I SOOOO love y'all If ya wanna post for my sakes if its hard smooth the edges for me I have a tendency to hide and shut down if it gets to hard but I feel connected to you all so I am not posting for me I am posting to update you.
On the bright side, I love my new hair color and cut. Also, Firday night I made sure I was out of the house when he called to talk with the kids(still try to do that a few times a week) and I went to the bookstore. I bought this book someone recommmended to me. Its called THE SHACK by WM. Paul Young. Wheeeew! Its so good I have hardly been able to put it down. I can't tell you anything about it but tell everyone to go get this. It has a spin on it about God in a way I have never ever ever read the likes of and its birthed out of tragedy its the #1 best seller on New York Times list and it has kept me busy all weekend I should be finished with it today. I have read it in 3 days. Quick go get it!!!!!! You will not be let down, i have cried several times during this book.
Hey, I have that book and it is WONDERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On another note, whether hubby slipped in the house or not, Plan B says that you don't talk relationship talk with him.
I loathed The Shack. I felt soiled by reading it, but finished it because it had been given to my oldest grandson at the residential treatment program where he's been living, and I wanted to see what it was about. Interesting story, but the most deadly mix of spiritual error and truth I've ever come across in my life!
I'm not going to argue with anyone about this, but since the book is getting so much praise, I at least want it known that there are alternate opinions about it!
tl
(((((((T2L)))))))
I'm sorry you had such a challenging weekend.
My best advice is to file...file SOMETHING!!! That is the only way you are going to be able to Plan B.
As I was preparing for Plan B, I was told to "get my ducks in a row". I asked what that meant. Part of that was filing something official (LSA or divorce) so that I was legally protected from this intrusions.
I really think you need to file something legal. This will protect your "safe haven", and it will send a message that you mean business.
He has had enough olive branches. What he needs is a kick in the [censored].
Why have you not filed anything?
(((((((T2L)))))))
I'm sorry you had such a challenging weekend.
My best advice is to file...file SOMETHING!!! That is the only way you are going to be able to Plan B.
As I was preparing for Plan B, I was told to "get my ducks in a row". I asked what that meant. Part of that was filing something official (LSA or divorce) so that I was legally protected from this intrusions.
I really think you need to file something legal. This will protect your "safe haven", and it will send a message that you mean business.
He has had enough olive branches. What he needs is a kick in the [censored].
Why have you not filed anything?
ditto
T2L,
For a guy who doesnt 'want' you he sure hangs around alot. Some women see their boyfreinds less often than you see him LOL
Funny how its always him breaking your PB
Great idea about locking your doors. What a nuisance tho. Waywards are crazy!
Hey, had a thought. The next time he trots out that rubbish about his 'planned break up', how about reverse it back at him with "thats nice, how about leaving us alone until you do that?"
Mind you, that would be communicating and that would be bad.
Prepare for 2X4.
I don't feel I have lost my love for my H
With interactions like this one, you WILL stop loving him. Or to describe it better...
You will believe the man you married is dead. You will wake up one day, and just be done. You WON'T see it coming.
He says well maybe it makes me feel good to do it. I say this is not normal people who are split up do not hang out at each others house. He says well we dont have to be like them.
DING, DING, DING.
This tells me he believes that eventually you will quit this silly plan B and you can all be one happy family...he and OW living together and him playing daddy in YOUR home whenever he feels like it.
So again, I say file something. He needs to know that you really will not live like this. So far, it appears you will.
I say I am uncomfortable with you doing this. He says well I want to visit my kids and I say well get them and go he says I can't becasue of the company vehicle
He just told you here that he has no intention of respecting your Plan B (he never has, why should he start now?)
His lack of a vehicle is NOT your problem.
The vehicle issue is for him to fix, and right now, he just uses it as an excuse to continue to invade your life.
Are you really going to continue to allow this???
and then he says can't you just go to your room and I say NO I am tired of being a prisoner in my own home.
This should have never happened in the first place. Do you see how your actions (or lack of action) permit him to break your Plan B then cause him to consider it a precedence for future behavior?
"Well, you've BEEN GOING to your room. There's no reason you can't keep doing that. You're just being unreasonable."
I try to explain how I feel and he says I treat him like a counselling session and a child.
Why on earth would you try to explain anything to a wayward?
We keep telling you that you cannot reason with them, and you keep thinking your different/he's different and you can explain reason into his alien head.
How's that working for ya?
He has said this before, I am not sure If I communicate well but at this point I think he may have a hard time dealing with emotions. Pre-A he said women crying makes him uncomfortable.
None of this matters. He is an alien, not your husband. He is totally absorbed in his own self and whatever he can do to get what he wants (a fix, cake eating, etc.)
He says well I was going to change your daughters brakes but Im going to leave
T2L's acting controlling, so I'm gonna go away and pout.
At this point its the 4 of us outside at the door. HE then starts talking about the things I did and i say kids I have apologized and asked him to gforgive me but I cannot go back in the past. DD18 says dad its really pretty simple if you ask me. Come home. try. change your cell phone number. DD18 then says to my absolute amazement dad what are you willing to do to build trust he says nothing, because your mother never trusted me in the 1st place. I say at the beginning of our marriage we were very young and I didn't. I didn't probably till the last 8-10 years because your dad became trust worthy. At this point I have the look of confusion on my face and he says I hate when you get that worried look and I say well its not worried its absolute confusion.
OK, here's the 2X4. You thought I was already giving it to you. No, here's where it begins.
This conversation never should have happened.
You both stuck your children right in the middle of this and that was WRONG!!!
WRONG!! WRONG!! WRONG!!
You should have said goodbye and told your children to come inside. You should have not started this conversation about "proving" to the alien that you are not brainwashing your children. (remember above, I said you cannot reason with an alien)
This entire conversation was inappropriate.
You both were using your kids to prove your points to each other.
It IS TIME to file an LSA or for divorce. (I did not say GET a divorce, but FILE for one.) You allow him to have all the power, and then wonder why he keeps overpowering you. Empower yourself, T2L.
I totally agree.
This has become a vicious cycle. You, being the sane one, are the only one who will break it.
Very strong action is called for.
Otherwise, you'll be here 6, 8, 29 months from now, "Well he broke Plan B again today, this is how I dealt with it, and now I'm going dark again."
Not what I would want to do in the same place...
Also, with finances are tight, you can always file the initial paperwork yourself. You can possibly even get the fee waived. If not, it's still cheaper than seeing an attorney.
Link to do-it-yourself paperwork.
T2L- you've got mail. Sorry I missed it earlier!
Hi T2L-
I just wanted to respond to one thing you said.
I don't feel I have lost my love for my H
I understand this. You know I do.
Sometimes what God wants for us to do is to give this love we have for our WH's to Him instead of holding onto it with some "hope" for an outcome that is part of "us" and not part of God.
It's our "Isaac", our deeply held hope for the promise of our future and what WE think it is supposed to look like or what WE think is supposed to happen. God wants us to lay it down-to sacrifice it-no matter what may come-to Him.
Sometimes all God wants is for us to release it to Him. Not because we are going to "get" something from God, but to grow our faith so that God can then give us what He wants to; something we weren't ready for until we surrendered that hope-that love-to Him.
Regardless of what happens with your WH, surrendering your love for him to God the best place for it to be.
BTDT and what I can tell you is that God is faithful.
Love ya'
T2L, I know 2X4's don't feel so swell, but they are for your own good and are given in love. I've had a few lovingly given to me, too.
How are you doing today?
Originally Posted By: Trying2liveI don't feel I have lost my love for my H
"With interactions like this one, you WILL stop loving him. Or to describe it better...
You will believe the man you married is dead. You will wake up one day, and just be done. You WON'T see it coming."
SMB has it exactly right. For me it was like I went to bed one night loving my husband, and woke up the next morning not loving him. And I never in a million years thought that would happen. I did a lousy Plan B.
I went to bed one night loving my husband, and woke up the next morning not loving him.
That was how I got with my first husband.
I still feel nothing for him - which is sad since he is the father of my oldest son.
SMB has it exactly right. For me it was like I went to bed one night loving my husband, and woke up the next morning not loving him.
Exactly what happened with x-lil. I woke up, looked at him and thought "I don't love you, I don't even like you"
I left him a week later.
T2L
T2L
You can email any of the IM's when you are ready.
Pep
I was hoping your comment was following an update.
T2L, I went in hiding from the board for about two weeks during tst's affair. I thought we were on the brink of recovery, and when I was faced with the fact that we weren't, I just stayed away from here because I hurt so much.
It was a different situation than yours, but there were some similarities.
I had some incredible people posting to me who often told me what I didn't want to hear or what hurt so much to hear, but they were ON MY SIDE. You have some incredible people here on your side, too.
Will you read
here and the page after and come back and post to me what, if anything, hits home for you?
There is nothing more I want for you than your life to be restored.
Just so you know...
I love you enough to go back on my dark, ugly thread, to some of the darkest, ugliest pages to get that link for you. I almost got snared in there.
{{{{{{{{{2TL}}}}}}}
I'm hoping something in there will hit home for you and we can talk more about it.
Ok I am just popping in really quick. I promise after Lil and Flick leave I will come back on. They arrive tomorrow and I am soooo excited!
Then on Friday Hope gets here and the Lil Mrs. SIHW will be making her way here on Saturday for girl day.
Stayed busy during the weekend. Went to some friends house on Saturday and had a really great time.
SMB I will read that link in a few days, as we have lots planned for our lil New Zealanders!!! Thank you for taking the time to post it. I did get your email to and I am in processing mode right now and have a bad habit of blurting without processing and then I am sorry later.
Ok gotta go for now I am exhausted, stayed up way to late last night with friends, got up way to early for church and lost that darn hour with the time change!
Thanks for all the care and concern and support. I have a lot of thoughts, but need to process before I can throw them all out.
Oh! How exciting! You all have fun!
Have a great time meeting all the MBers!!
ATEN HUT!
I AM MASTER SGT OF THE VACATION POLICE. FROM HERE ON ALL TEARS AND WALLOWS WILL DESIST FOR THE DURATION OF PLAN "VACATION". ALSO MALES OVER THE AGE OF 11 SHALL ENTER THE PREMISES AT THERE OWN RISK. SUBSEQUENT MAKE OVERS OR VERBAL MALE BASHING MAY SUFFICE AS PUNISHMENT DUE TO RAISED ESTROGEN LEVELS IN TH AREA.
I WANNA SEE SMILES ON THOSE LIPS THERE SALLY AND I WANNA HEAR LAUGHS. I CAN'T HEAR YOU SOUND OFF SOLDIER!
TOURISM WILL BE A TOP PRIORITY BE SURE TO BRING YOUR GEAR (CAMERAS, SUNSCREEN,WARPAINT, SHORTS, SWIMSUITS, CLOTHES FOR NIGHTLIFE, AND OF COURSE YOUR SHADES). NOW PACK IT IN SOLDIERS AND MOVE OUT!
*No I am not excited at all*
**COUGH mechanical bull COUGH**
I am so jealous!!!
Hoping you all have a blast of a time!
Plan V
SIHW, I am bringing a pillow to strap onto my backside for the wild ride on the "raging bull".
Can't wait for the change of scenery! First time in a LONG time that D15 is excited and sounds like her old self.
Sorry that we missed Lil dog and Flick, we are the second wave of vacationers!
T2L will be sooo busy we will be saying "what WS", Who???
ATEN HUT!
I AM MASTER SGT OF THE VACATION POLICE. FROM HERE ON ALL TEARS AND WALLOWS WILL DESIST FOR THE DURATION OF PLAN "VACATION". ALSO MALES OVER THE AGE OF 11 SHALL ENTER THE PREMISES AT THERE OWN RISK. SUBSEQUENT MAKE OVERS OR VERBAL MALE BASHING MAY SUFFICE AS PUNISHMENT DUE TO RAISED ESTROGEN LEVELS IN TH AREA.
I WANNA SEE SMILES ON THOSE LIPS THERE SALLY AND I WANNA HEAR LAUGHS. I CAN'T HEAR YOU SOUND OFF SOLDIER!
TOURISM WILL BE A TOP PRIORITY BE SURE TO BRING YOUR GEAR (CAMERAS, SUNSCREEN,WARPAINT, SHORTS, SWIMSUITS, CLOTHES FOR NIGHTLIFE, AND OF COURSE YOUR SHADES). NOW PACK IT IN SOLDIERS AND MOVE OUT!
*No I am not excited at all*
**COUGH mechanical bull COUGH**
You never heard of the vagina monologues? Wow, you're missing out!
link
How goes it, T2L?
Tell us about meeting your MB friends!
Bah! She is busy playing tour guide madge (no not barbie she isn't blonde). Which she is excellent at btw! I am sure she will be back eventually.
Yoo hoo! Tour Guide Madge? Over here... in MB land. How are you? Update please?
Yoo hoo! Tour Guide Madge? Over here... in MB land. How are you? Update please?
Ok Hope just went home this morning and I have been taking care of lots of stuff I have put off during the last 2 weeks. I have been a tour guide of Southern California. I had lots of fun with Lil doggie and Flick and lots of fun with Hope. I am pooped! Hope will have to tell you all the fun stuff I had her doing!
Ok I'm going to bed.....
Hey been talking to a recovered MB'er that i have never spoken to before. He recommended a thread. Could some one tell me how to find it or if anyone has heard of it. Every time I try and search for a thread It never works right. I think the poster's name is Lost in VA or something like that.
Well, I am back! going over to post at my sitch.
Got to say that T2L rocks! My D15 loves her and her family. This kid did not want to go home. Gee I didn't want to go home.
T2L give Ricky a kiss form me. I am sure he is pining for me. (should I mention it is a dog????)
I'mmm back...
you turned that little dog into such a whore....sorry but I miss Shi shi.....I still wanna take her home...I love me a BIG dog.
take that beautiful big dog home and train him for a week. He is a great dog...but me and Ricky bonded! lol
Well, Miss T2L, I'm hearing many rumors about what a wonderful time everyone had with you! Want more details, and did anyone have time to take pictures?
Hi Believer, I have a few more details in my sitch. Pictures??? hhhmmm did I hear my space
T2L, Come out, come out, where ever you are.
Ready to chat???
I WANNA HEAR ABOUT THE FUN!
Talk about a DARK plan B!
The woman is invisible.
Talk about a DARK plan B!
The woman is invisible.
Ok guys sorry took me sooo long I was so totally exhausted after company and I had am selling my home to so I have been really busy showing the house and talking with Realtors.
Well had lots of fun with Lildoggie and Flick. Took them to Hollywood sign, Hollywood walk of fame and to Disneyland. It was great fun learning about New Zealand! And really I could listen to them talk forever, I love the accent! They are really beautiful people. WE got to go over and have dinner with Chrys and Chewie and that was a lot of fun too and she is a fabulous cook and hostess!
Then 2 days later Hope arrived. I took her and DD15 to Hollywood sign, walk of fame and Universal City walk which is just outside the Universal Studios theme park. That night the ever lovely SIHW met us there and we all had dinner and me and a friend rode the mechanical bull. Yes I got bucked LOL! SIHW bought Hope and I a tshirt there that they were selling and oddly enough it said "Cheaters will be shot"! so thats what I wore riding the bull LOLOLOLOL Goodtimes!
During Hopes visit, we went to Santa Monica Pier, then the kids went to Venice Beach, We did Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills and took tons of pictures!
We also went and me Holyheart, who is the sweetest ever, and now is converting to a HOT momma! LOL It was great meeting her and all of us talking. You felt like you were with family.
So while Hope was here, we changed her hair color and style. I took her and her daughter to get a mystic tan and I drug my lil friend Hope to Fredericks for a bra shopping spree to treat and pamper herself especially since she lost so much weight on the lovely infidelity diet.
I had the best 2 and 1/2 weeks.
So I may try to update as much as possible but my home has to be sold really fast on a short sale. Had to short sale because partially the A and partially because H's job is related to housing market and we took a 30K hit in pay. I'm sure it didn't help with him sharing rent at the barf shack. But I saw the W-2 myself so I know how much we lost just because of the economy. I am sad but hasn't set in as I have been so busy trying to work with realtors and lenders and trying to find a new place to live as well.
So as far as other stuff. Still really trying to find out what it is I need to do for me. I have read some stuff on Lostinva's thread. ITs really good. I was forwarded a post of hers. I think I will post it. It's making me question things. I mean not Dr. Harley or the book, mostly about timing of Plan A and Plan B. I have been told off line by a poster who was here in 1999 that Plan B was only implemented in extreme cases, like a nasty divorce or if the scenario was nasty with a WS. Anyways I'm not in a Plan A or Plan B. Its been a bit difficult with having to work with my realtors. They needed H and I to sign at same time so they could list the house. IT has to be rushed because there is an auction sale date in 2 weeks and If I dont work fast to find a buyer it will sell under us. If I get a short sale it will give me at least close to 2 months to find a place.
So that's my update and I didn't wanna Plan B Y'all. Just lots of visitors and stuff.
So how are y'all doin?????
Wow, T2L -- you have been super busy and lots of news to share!
I am interested in this other thread you mentioned -- not that I want to second guess Plan B, but it would be helpful to see what you have recently gained some new insights and strength from. We are all always learning!!
Take care!
BF439
Wow, T2L -- you have been super busy and lots of news to share!
I am interested in this other thread you mentioned -- not that I want to second guess Plan B, but it would be helpful to see what you have recently gained some new insights and strength from. We are all always learning!!
Take care!
BF439
Hi, Missy!
OH, TNT, I do love you!!!
Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!
Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.
OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.
Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of hell". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.
THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.
So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.
When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.
PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.
The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.
I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.
So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.
You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.
And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!! ) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....
Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two LB letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a LB!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.
First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.
So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.
Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.
At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.
Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.
In January, I got that letter. And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.
The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.
Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as hell be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.
Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones! )
OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.
Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.
Good luck to you.
Love and prayers,
Lori
Ok here's some more stuff from her(LOSTVA) I have gotten rid of the persons name that forwarded it to me...
Although all our situations have some similarities, they're still different. You have to handle things the best way for you. I've read on other posts about the length of time to Plan A. My Plan A was for about 2 months before he left and 7 afterwards, with no Plan B in sight. Anonymous's was longer by a few months and both our marriages are wonderful now. If I had ended it earlier, while they were still in "honeymoon phase", I don't think I'd be here. But when SHE fell apart, I was still the lighthouse in the storm. And he didn't just say "I'm coming home" and expect me to weep with joy...he asked if I'd have him and we talked a long, long time. I wasn't being a doormat, I was treating him with respect and he returned it. I think it was Gary Smalley who wrote that honoring a spouse is a gift you bestow upon them WHETHER OR NOT they deserve it. That stuck with me and that's what I tried to do. I think it showed.
I didn't choose no contact when we reconciled; (I FORGOT this..!!) I didn't even ask. I kissed him goodbye and sent him off to work and to her escapades (she kept trying for more than a year and she is very, very good at this!) every morning. I did this for ME, not for him. I needed him to send her away because he didn't want her around, not because I asked him to (although I believe he would have) and I didn't want to worry that, months or years down the road he would run into her and feel all warm and fuzzy and I'd panic. Nope, I couldn't handle that. And, btw, he did get rid of her - had her transferred. But by then, she was such a non-issue that I hadn't asked about her in months and he forgot to tell me that she had been gone off the job for a long, long time! She didn't matter to either of us.
That wouldn't be the best solution for everyone, but it was best for some of us. The same with my letters, our friendship, everything else. We took the Harley's basic principles and customized them. It's not that unusual. I remember Steve counselling someone "back in the day" to continue Plan A for a long, long time, even after their WS had moved in with OP. He customized according to personalities and situations. Plan A is about trying to meet your spouse's needs, if you can. But we expanded the definition just a bit. Affairs rarely happen in perfect marriages, although they can when emotional problems are involved. Although only the WS bears the responsibility for going outside the marriage to handle problems, both partners are responsible for the state the marriage is/was in. This sort of wake-up call is the perfect time to look inside ourselves and see how we might be a better person or a better spouse. It gives us power and strength. It makes Plan A so much easier. And we learn the lessons we need to know in order to make this marriage (should we reconcile) or other relationship what it should be. I think that's how self-growth got so tied into Plan A for some of us. Because it's important. And without it, should you reconcile, you have the same old people, doing the same old things and that could mean the same old situation. Most of us want something better.
I was forwarded this as well....
More Info on Plans
T2L -- thank you. I think I really needed to read these tonight. I think I needed plan b for my own sanity, but I also need to know that I can trust myself that if I need to adjust the plans, its ok. Part of this whole process is us trusting ourselves and being so lost for so long after our best friends betray us make that so hard.
Maybe that is where you have been lately -- learning again to trust yourself even if it looked a little different to others?
Take care,
BF439
Hi T2L, wasn't that a great read. Interested to see what others have to say about it.
Ok I found the links to Orchids revers babble post...I had to look forever through my old post. I also found some other ones like truehearts letter....a great letter....and the 5 stages of grieving.
Orchids fabulous Reverse Babbel Thread True Hearts Letter 5 stages of grieving
Well had lots of fun with Lildoggie and Flick. Took them to Hollywood sign, Hollywood walk of fame and to Disneyland. It was great fun learning about New Zealand! And really I could listen to them talk forever, I love the accent! They are really beautiful people. WE got to go over and have dinner with Chrys and Chewie and that was a lot of fun too and she is a fabulous cook and hostess!
I DO NOT have an accent. You just live in a country where everyone talks funny.
And Crysalis is a great cook and welcome to stay and visit my kitchen, err I mean us, anytime
Seriously you all missed a great extension on your trip - 6 or 7 national parks and views to take your breath away just an extra 12 hrs or so from T2L...
When you want some Goddess building fresh air, let me know!
Well had lots of fun with Lildoggie and Flick. Took them to Hollywood sign, Hollywood walk of fame and to Disneyland. It was great fun learning about New Zealand! And really I could listen to them talk forever, I love the accent! They are really beautiful people. WE got to go over and have dinner with Chrys and Chewie and that was a lot of fun too and she is a fabulous cook and hostess!
I DO NOT have an accent. You just live in a country where everyone talks funny.
And Crysalis is a great cook and welcome to stay and visit my kitchen, err I mean us, anytime
You guys are funny. I burned the steak.
The only thing I make are "reservations"...lol
You guys are funny. I burned the steak.
Only your guys.
Mine and Flicks still moooooooo'd It was perfect. Besides, Flick was obviously happy, he ate 2 steaks! And they were not exactly little either!
Hey, T2L:
Sorry about your house. Man...I feel bad for you and your family. I don't know what else to say except I will keep you guys in my prayers.
Here's something that might make you feel good. DD brought you up tonight. Said you'd have been proud of me. I wore the black and white top I showed you from Macy's with a new Target white jacket and black pants. DD really liked the outfit and said I looked great.
And that made me feel REALLY great.
Remember this -- You, T2L, are a fantastic, beautiful woman. And a smart cookie to boot. You will survive the house fiasco just like I will survive the financial fiasco and Hope will survive the job fiasco. And we will all survive the A with or without our Hs. We just have to get stronger, stay focused on the goal, and keep the faith. Most of this stuff is out of our control. But anything and EVERYTHING is possible with God.
As for the other semi-MB posts -- I agree that "one size fits all" doesn't always work. Do what feels right. Do what God guides you to do.
But for me, I really need a dark Plan B to strenghthen myself and to give WH a taste of life without me.
And he got a big taste of life on the outside tonight. And if he wants to always be looking at his kids from the outside in, then he best stay with OW and leave us alone.
Sad that DS will be graduating in May and it will probably be the same story. WH watching the ceremony invisible in the auditorium. From the outside looking in....HS graduations, birthdays, college graduations, weddings, grandkids' births, etc.
I could never be an outside to MY family's life.
Hey, T2L:
Here's something that might make you feel good. DD brought you up tonight. Said you'd have been proud of me. I wore the black and white top I showed you from Macy's with a new Target white jacket and black pants. DD really liked the outfit and said I looked great.
And that made me feel REALLY great.
Ello Luv!!! Ya know I should be sadder about the house. Hope will tell you I was actually very calm. You never know what God will use to humble a person. I know my H personally loved the house and he knows part of this is his fault...along with some cuts in his pay which is 100% commission and has reduced just do to the economy. I have learned sometimes when we hold on to things to tightly we can never open a new door. It is what it is and God will still provide another place.
Anyways that is stinkin awesome what your DD said! YESSSS! I am so proud of you for stepping out the the boat and your comfort zone and going for it! You truly are an beautiful person so show it! Its good for H to see that you are rockin HOT and not wasting away. OW is skank beyond skank and she totally has nuttin on you, and Im not exaggerating! So keep going! I'm gonna have to drag you down to Fredericks next! Hope loved it! I think its a great place to feel really girly. It was one of the 1st things I did within weeks after Dday and it made me feel beautiful. Probably sounds dumb to go there right after discovery but ya what, it helped. I needed and we all need to feel lovely and doggone it there's nuttin better than bras and underwear to do it! LAMO
But yeah you gotta go back and get that totally cute vest with a cute white "T" and some smoking HOT snug jeans and a pair of cute black heals and go celebrate! Shoot with that outfit I'll come out and celebrate too!
I do agree for you the PB is the way to go. H needs to hit the floor with you no where near. No worries its gonna happen cuz the HO is using him and when she's done she'll blow on to the next one unfortunately. I can see that a mile away. Don't know how long it will take or if you will even want it then but its surely going to happen.
I'm really glad DD noticed and you felt great! Simply awesome!
{{{{{Hugs}}}}}
You are soooooooooo awesome, T2L. I'm inspired! And I checked out your myspace page. Yep...you are a girly girl and I need you as an influence if I'm to go up against the MK skanky ho.
And we really do need to meet up again for lunch and shopping. Let's make another date in a few weeks, girlfriend.
Yes I have to confess I am a girly girl! Can I just say for the record....I STINKING LOVE BEING A GIRL...ok sorry its done. And yeah my myspace page is set up that way for a reason. Thanks to SIHW I have a secret tracker on my myspace so when someone visits it tells me where they are. Since i only have about 15 friends I know where each of them live.
I set my page up like that because the Sea Hag found my myspace. As of yesterday she was on it 7 times. I guess since I added a photo album of me and my H is really drove her crazy. Apparently Sea Hag is also visiting SIHW and possibly HOPES page too. Whatever.
But mostly I use it to catch up with friends I don't have on email and don't get to regularly talk with, and my family and best friends are on there. Its really great to stay connected and a little more personal than just email.
Anyways yes lets do get together in a few weeks!
Orchid's RB thread is one of my personal favorites! One of the best threads ever written here, imo!
I am so glad you all had such a good time...I thought of you all when I was in DC and Graceland...
I'm so sorry about the house, I know you wanted to save it...but you are SO right about being humbled...plus, you don't know what God has in store for you. Lay it in His hands and let it go...it's just a "thing" you know? Things are expendable...people aren't. The most important items in your life are God and your family. They will see you through.
Let me say, I lost a house because of my husband's infidelity....and I cried like the devil when I realized why we lost it...but you know, 7 years later I have a BETTER house and a WHOLE family and every tear and every humbling experience was worth it.
Told the Wookie last night that I spent 5 years in labor with the littles and they were worth every contraction.
You don't know what your blessings are till you are a little higher up the mountain and can look back down.
So don't bother looking down now. Only look Up.
Happy/jealous about the company, very sad for you about the house...it will get better.
Just had to comment that the reason Dr. Harley has kept tightening up his Plan B recommendations over the years, most recently shortening his recommended Plan A time to 3-6 months for men and 1 1/2-3 months for women, is because he saw the terrible effects a BS ended up with if they stayed in contact with their WS. Far worse PTSD, and less success at recovery were among them.
However he may have started out, the reason he changed to a more conservative position was to minimize damage to the BS and increase the chances for marital recovery.
Protracted contact with the WS will do the opposite.
Wow, T2L -- you have been super busy and lots of news to share!
I am interested in this other thread you mentioned -- not that I want to second guess Plan B, but it would be helpful to see what you have recently gained some new insights and strength from. We are all always learning!!
Take care!
BF439
Hi, Missy!
OH, TNT, I do love you!!!
Ok, so you guys do realize that I tend to get wordy and talk WAYYYYY too much and you STILL want me to do this, right? I'm gonna touch on a lotta stuff here. I'd shied away from posting lately, but I've actually been ASKED my opinion!! You guys don't know what a mind-field you've set off here!!
Now, I'm not particularly wise and wonderful, but I can share with you my experiences and feelings, but that's all. And sometimes those feelings don't follow the norm, so be forewarned.
OK, history first, I guess. One Monday, last spring, Robert walked in after work. He leaned over to kiss me and I said "Hi, Honey, I love you." He said, "Hi. I love you, too, but not like I used to - we need to talk." That was my last kiss. And the night of the "I love you but not IN love with you stuff." Also the last "I love you" in any form.
Within a week, he didn't love me at all, couldn't stand the sight of me, our marriage had been a mistake and he wished he had never married me. Knew our relationship had been a mistake since the beginning (TEN YEARS???) and it never should have happened. Kristin didn't care for him at all and never would. His family couldn't stand us and we had ruined his life. He couldn't count the number of times he had wished I had been in an accident and died so that he could be released from these "pits of hell". We had NEVER had a good time, never really cared for each other like we should - he couldn't even remember the fun times. And on and on....All this was news to me! We were the couple that most people envied! We had had a hard couple of years, Mom's cancer, Papa's death, but I had NO idea. I wanted to die.
THEN, he told me about PT. She made him feel WONDERFUL. He finally knew what true love really was and he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her. He adored her 3 year old and she loved him. I had NEVER made him feel this way, we were never meant to be, etc......you know the stuff, right? The knife turned. We've all been there.
So, I came here and lurked. And cried. And couldn't sleep, 30 pounds in 30 days, all the standard stuff. One month later, he left to be with her.
When he left, I didn't know where he was. He didn't contact us, not even Kristin. He spent some time visiting his mom, but eventually, cut away from them as well. She was my greatest strength through this mess. Now, don't get me wrong, she welcomed PT into her home, the whole family did. They were afraid they'd lose Robert if they didn't. His sister called me and told me that Robert was finally happy and I should "move on". (Man, I hate those words, what DO they really mean???) But Mom called me daily once she found out what was going on and tried to spy as much as possible. We've gotten closer than I ever imagined we could be.
PT and Robert set up house. He already had her moved into a new place b/f he left. They opened joint bank accounts, he brought her HERE when I wasn't here to get some of his things, set her up with OUR doctor (she supposedly didn't have one), took her all around OUR town (they lived an hour away) as his girlfriend. Told everyone he ran into that we were through. In VA, you have to be separated for 6 months to get divorced and he said as soon as that time was over, we were done. Taught Leah to call him "Daddy". (That hurt worse than ANYTHING, believe it or not.) No financial support whatsoever. Took two vehicles so PT could have one. He called infrequently - when he needed something (until the last month), came by rarely, usually to pick up something or hunt. Didn't give me his address or phone number. Was cold and mean to me - wouldn't talk to Kristin at all hardly (except for once or twice during the whole time.) He was someone I didn't even know.
The first time I posted here, Deb responded first...."You'll be ok, you CAN get through this, there are things you can do." Ok, so there was NO way she could know..I mean, she could NEVER have hurt like I did, loved like I did, been treated as horribly as I was. Ok, I was wrong. She DID know! And she was right - so was everyone else.
I owe my friends here my life. They calmed me down. Showed me I wasn't alone. Cried with me, took deep breaths with me, got me through way too many sleepless nights, laughed with me, and kicked me in the butt and outta feeling sorry for myself when I needed it. I think that was the most important thing of all. And helped me find something to laugh at in the midst of all this mess. I soon discovered I was looking forward to waking every morning.
So, like she said, the rawness eased - the hurt found it's place, continuous sorta, but in it's place. I started paying attention to what people were trying to teach me, got rid of my stubborness and self-righeousness. Ordered books, read, read, read! And started thinking.
You know, Robert couldn't come up with one specific thing about me as a wife that was bad. Even said so himself. But, once I got rid of the old ideas and opened my mind, I COULD!!! I mean, I had worked my butt off to be a good wife, but..... You've heard me say before that he broke the vow of fidelity, but I broke a lot of them too - unknowingly. I wasn't the best PERSON I could be and therefore, not the best wife either.
And I thought about him too. I'd known this man for fifteen years - through good times and what I THOUGHT were bad times (this mess sorta changes your perspective!! ) This was not him...to abandon us, leave us to starve. He and Kristin were "joined at the hip". To say now that he never really loved her, just cared for her? Something was definitely not right. This was NOT him....not from my experience, or that of his family and friends (who he had now begun to turn his back on.) Sooo.....
Well, after reading a few books on the nature of affairs, looking realistically at my contributions to the state of our marriage, listening to my betrayer friends on this site, I started to understand. It took away the sting of his words and actions. Didn't erase it - just took the edge off. Through Harley's books and others, I learned about marriages and affairs. From Phil McGraw, I learned about myself. I was insatiable. My basic personality is to DO something. Now, I had a bit of understanding, AND something I could do! I got stronger and stronger. Sure, there were bad days. Thanksgiving and New Years come to mind, as well as one notable weekend w/ two LB letters. (BTW, I found out that he was thinking hard about coming home at that point and my letters talked him right out of it! The power of a LB!! I'm glad - I wasn't where I needed to be yet!) As I grew stronger, I felt freer. I realized that I had the power. He didn't keep me going, I realized it was up to me to do that, and to keep HIM going, too! Even though he didn't know it.
First decision. Do I love my husband? Yup, more than life itself - not the things he's doing now, but the man he truly is inside. Second. Do I want my marriage back? Nope - but I want a better one. Third - Am I ready to work for it? Absolutely!! I asked myself these three questions every single day. Every morning, before I got out of bed, I asked myself these questions. Same answer.
So I loved him. And respected and believed in the man I KNEW was inside. I learned to look PAST this behavior and into the soul of the man that I was convinced was still there. And tried to understand the torture he was going through - even though he didn't THINK he was. I knew now, right? I took the good little signs and they sustained my love. I blew off the bad stuff as part of the addiction. So it wouldn't KILL my love. I believed in him and lit a candle (still do, for us and all my friends) and every time I passed it, I told him I loved him and I believed in him. The coolest part was I was also beginning to believe in ME!! TNT taught me that, the power of words and belief.
Since I couldn't talk to him, I wrote a letter to him once a week and sent it to his mom's. Pop would deliver it to work for me. They were light, funny, flirty, news from home - like he was away from camp and homesick!! Works of art that I worked hard on at first, then seemed to come more easily. Somewhere in each letter, when appropriate, I compared something that I was telling him with a good memory of ours (and then this happened and you know it was just like when we....)and laughed about it. I ended each one with "I love you and I will always believe in you." I never took off my rings. He commented on that once - asked why I was wearing them - really angry sounding. I told him I loved him, I was married to him and I would always be married to him in my heart. He looked annoyed at first, looked like he was gonna yell at me and then got quiet for a minute. Then, with a strange look on his face, he said quietly "Thank you, Lori." I laughed and flirted when I saw him. Once or twice, I teared up, but not often. I saved that for when I was alone. At the end of each of the few visits, I hugged him goodbye and said "I love you." I got nothing except "You DO know I'm getting a divorce and marrying PT - no matter what. And even if I didn't marry her, I'll never come back." I just told him to do what he needed to do, but I'd always love him. I never discussed PT with him, never mentioned her name. I never discussed us or our marriage. If he brought it up, I'd just say I loved him and I wanted what would make him happy. No more. He'd just look at me like I had lost my mind.
At first it was "pretending". But I was working on me too, with the help of my favorite book by Phil McGraw. And I wasn't sitting around waiting. I continued to love him, but I had a daughter to raise and life was happening. I knew I couldn't support us and keep this house. She couldn't stay in private school. And I didn't have much time. I knew my job would be ending, just didn't know when. So I enrolled her in public school, started working on the house to sell it. Went to HS football games, shopping with friends, movies with the kids, whatever. I enjoyed more days than I didn't. And grew stronger. So, soon, I didn't have to pretend. During this time, I forgave him. Don't remember when or how, just all of a sudden, realized that I wasn't angry and didn't hold anything against him. Robert had held marriage sacred, had always been there for me, no matter what. Had NO respect whatsoever for any SOB who would stray and was very verbal about it. For a good, kind and decent man - the most wonderful man I ever knew to turn his back on everything that had ever been important to him - something was wrong. And I couldn't love him and not forgive him for something that took him over so completely. I learned to laugh. I began sleeping, I began to live. But I didn't stop loving him. I think THAT'S moving on.
Around Dec. he started calling a bit more, bogus reasons, favors he needed. Still talking divorce. But finally communicating a bit. I just listened. Never talked about us. See, now I wasn't "playing" him to get him back. I was REALLY his friend! You know? I cared about him, loved him and wanted what was best for him. Like a real friend would. So, it was getting easier most of the time. Of course, I still wanted him back, but, I wasn't obsessing anymore. He called one day at work, wanted the Dr.'s phone number and wound up getting really nasty with me. I patiently listened and let him talk, no matter what he said, and eventually discovered that he had had a seizure, the first in 20 years, the Friday b/f. Once I thought about it and the way I know my husband is, I realized he could've looked the phone number up in the directory. He needed to talk - he was scared. And, for him, scared turns into angry. And I was the target. Why? Because I was the one he could trust. And I was there for him. I found out later, I was right. Without even realizing it, when he got scared, he turned to me.
In January, I got that letter. And 4 days later, he asked to come home. We took a month to make the transition and see each other. He still had not said "I love you." That came during that month. So did our first conversations about us since that very first week. I found out later that he thought he came home b/c he decided he SHOULD. Now, it didn't hurt that PT had been a B**** and I had become someone he enjoyed being around. He told his family he really "liked" me now - I was still Lori, but "more somehow". And I really liked me too - a whole lot more than I did before. I was very proud of myself for what I was doing - for my marriage and for me personally. That shines through, I think. It seems that he had been doing a lot of thinking - for practically the whole time. And then, one day, he heard a song, and it stuck in his head, reminding him of committment and all that stuff. He pushed it away and wrote that letter - fighting the thoughts. Well, on his way over here on Saturday, he heard it again. And he decided. He couldn't "move on" until he had finished this. He was coming over to fix my dryer for me (the FIRST thing he had ever offered to do) and wound up taking me for a ride and asking to come home. No real romance there, guys.
The first few weeks were unsettling. PT pulled hard and so did his emotions. There's so much guilt and other stuff. He said he wanted to move out on day 3. He tested me constantly to see if I was real and if my love was real. And, then, very slowly, he became strong. And we began to fall in love. And now, he tells me he loves me forever, loved me even when he didn't love me (that makes sense to me for some reason) and that he's 100% "in love" with me (I hate THAT phrase, too, but I'll take it from him! ) He also says he admires my courage, respects me for respecting him, even when I had no reason to, and that my believing in him made him strong. I don't take credit for all that, but it sure feels good to hear it.
Ok, now for opinions. Don't blast me, ok? I never felt humiliated or shamed. We made mistakes and bad judgements, but...stuff happens. I had small spurts of anger - at specific THINGS he did and said, but anger has never come easily for me - I believe it's simply another way of showing hurt, so I never really had to deal with the slow burning continuous anger - I just let myself hurt and dealt with it. Tootrusting is right - we can't force them. THEY have to figure it out on their own. All we can do is be there and love them - if we choose to.... and that's what it is - a choice. We're not doormats or any such nonsense. We're strong and independent and coping with a difficult situation, thank you. And this is NOT for wimps! I can't think of anything less doormatty (like that word? ) than standing strong for what you believe in in the face of all the nonsense. But I'd be there for my child and I decided I'd sure as hell be there for my husband as long as he'd let me - and sometimes, even when he wouldn't. A lot of times it would've been a lot easier to run - For my short time, I chose the other path.
Robert didn't decide "all of a sudden". All those months of Plan A (I just do NOT have a Plan B personality!) were slowly building impressions that were eating away at his subconscious. When the time was right, a trigger (the song) brought them to the surface. I'm not so sure that he really did it to "do the right thing." I think that's the excuse for doing what he wanted to do, know what I mean? I mean, his love just grew too quickly to have just been "doing the right thing." He didn't change his mind quickly. Everything was slowing bringing him back to reality - we just couldn't see it. PT was being a B*****. I was being an angel. The fog was wearing thin. The letter was a last grasp to hang on to the "I'll never go back" thing. Fighting back against those nagging thoughts. I found out later that every time he left here, no matter how awful he was to me, he went home and was MORE awful to PT - or quiet and sullen. Then, he'd go out and do something WONDERFUL for her.....trying to hold on, know what I mean? Remember the little Dutch boy? A tiny hole in a dam is NOT a big thing. But that little bit of water, seeping through, DOES eventually break it down! That's Plan A. That's what happened to Robert, I think and so does his mom. It didn't happen all of a sudden, the damn dam just finally broke against the consistant gentle force of the water!!! (I just LOVE analogies - even corny ones! )
OK, warned you this would be long and I don't even know if I've helped at all. The saddest part is that it WAS longer....I actually pared it down a bit! TNT summed it up better than me.
Ok, so that's the closest I can come to a nutshell version. If I missed a question, let me know. I'll try NOT to be so wordy the next time around.
Good luck to you.
Love and prayers,
Lori
I read this , then I went and read T2L's very first post on THIS thread.
There is no way on God's Green Earth that I could have done what Lori did (that's LOSTVA) - I would have been completely crazy and cried out to everyone...
"Oh God! Help, Help, Help and I crazy?!?!?!!?!?" ... because what is a normal resoponse to an insane situation? -
feeling crazy.I am not cut from the Lori cloth (duh)
Not much still looking for a new place to live. Had 4 bids on the short sale for my house within the 1st 12 hours. We are working still with lenders. They will have to approve the short sale amount.
Getting ready to start packing soon. Hate packing and hate moving.
When the 'dumb answers' thread was started, I had trouble restricting myself to two posts. There were about 137 dumb answers I could have dropped in right away. I notice the thread is still growing healthily, so clearly 'fog' is a universal mirth-maker.
I was also struck by Kat's thread on how tough it must be to be the deliverer of the dumb answer, the one deep in fog.
So yesterday, during an interminable technical seminar and a long motorway journey, I found myslef wondering just how WS's get into that situation. My own H has described his own situation to me very clearly, and I've generated my own homespun psychology to explain it. I suppose I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to make sense of everything.
So the following is a personal slant on what I think goes on in the mind of affair partners, and how I think the fog works. It's talking about the 'soulmate' kind of affair - I think fling-type affairs follow different paths. I'd find it useful to know if it matches with others' experiences.
And it's LONG.
To begin with, I believe that 'fog' is a distorted reality.
‘Reality’ for each of us, consists principally of two things – our ‘life model’, and our value system.
The ‘life model’ is the picture we have in our head of how the world works, how people interact with each other. As with an engineering model, we feed possibilities into it and come up with predictions. The accuracy of the model is dependent on many things – how good a starter pack our parents gave us, how detailed we’ve made the model, how much we’ve tested it by running sample data through. Some people have highly accurate models and are considered ‘shrewd’, and some have poor predictive powers and are thought naive. Most of us fall somewhere in the middle.
Our values system is what we use to guide us through life. It’s the set of rules and restrictions and codes that we innately believe will give us the best chance in life. It can be a narrow set – “what’s best for ME”, can revolve around the family, or can be very broad – “what’s in the best interests of the community (town, nation, world)?”
Some of our values are personal – we’ve learned hard lessons from our own experience. – “Don’t steal, or you’ll get a record.’ Some we’ve unconsciously absorbed from our parents – “It’s wrong to steal”. Some we adopt to fit in with peer group ideals – “Her son was done for burglary, isn’t it awful?”.
When we engage with a life-partner, we usually pick someone with a similar values system to our own, and we work hard to bring those systems together. This is not lovey-dovey stuff - it’s innately practical. If we are both bound by the same restrictions and drivers, we are likely to support and reinforce each other. We will be able to ‘trust’ – to confidently predict the other’s actions and opinions – and will therefore have a solid platform on which to base our life.
Our values system is based implicitly on our life model, and it works by reward and punishment. If we conform to our values, we build self-esteem and feel good about ourselves. If we violate our values, we feel discomfort. We attempt to get away from the discomfort by a) confessing and apologising, ie reconforming to values, or b) stuffing the discomfort down, or c) altering the values system so that we don’t appear to have breached it.
When an affair begins, there is usually huge temptation involved – for whatever reason. The temptation overwhelms the values system – when the WS says “I didn’t think…” , that’s exactly right. The normal mental mechanisms were not in play, largely because the life model was not sophisticated or accurate enough to detect what was happening nor predict the likely consequences, or because an intensity of resentment or anger caused normal mechanisms to be deliberately ignored. There is a ‘fantasy leap’, almost like a leap of religious faith. This leap says ‘ I want some fun / excitement / attention. I deserve that. I believe that this will make me feel better, and I believe I can control it, and get what I want out of it.”
The ‘denial’ mechanism can’t operate for long – the values system is too powerful for that. But by the time the underlying values system kicks in, the two affair partners have usually got themselves in sufficiently deep for there to be painful drawbacks in pulling out, and significant benefits in staying in. Excitement and pleasure oppose pain and discomfort.
For most people, an affair is a serious violation of their values system, so that sooner or later, the intense discomfort of values-betrayal is felt. This is heavy-duty pain, the kind that the WS is keen to escape from, like appendicitis. So how do they escape that pain? See above. They could a) confess – but of course it’s not something trivial they’d be confessing, so forget that, b) stuff the discomfort down, or c) alter the values system.
I suspect that most WS’s begin by trying to stuff the pain. But it’s too big – like getting an elephant into a suitcase. So there is really only one way to go. The values system has to change. It seems likely that the WS moves rapidly away from such intense pain – perhaps so quickly that its presence is not even noticed.
So the WS’s position metamorphoses:
1) It’s wrong to have an affair.
2) Friendship is not an affair.
3) Affairs are only wrong if they threaten the marriage. This is a friendship-with-sex and does not threaten the marriage.
4) The outside relationship ‘brightens’ me, and is therefore good for the marriage.
5) Other people are inexperienced. They don’t understand the power of a passionate friendship, and how enriching it is.
6) This affair is not wrong. In fact, I could not live without it.
The process is driven, I suspect, by a factor which none of the literature seems to comment on much – the fact that TWO people are involved.
Both affair partners are having to alter their values systems to accommodate what they’re doing. This feels uncomfortable, so they look to each other for confirmation that they’re justified in acting as they are. Neither wants to believe that they’re involved with someone whose values system is easily changed – that would be weak - so they must each work hard to convince each other that they are good, that their values are altering only because they are ‘growing’, becoming too complex and sophisticated / visceral / emotionally liberated for the old realities as personified by their spouses. They therefore reinforce each other, generating a self-perpetuating cycle that builds like a fire in heavy winds.
In addition, the same values-converging process that happened with the marital partners operates on the affair partners. Ironically, there is a strong need for security, perhaps to replace the dwindling security that the marriage is likely to provide (if the affair is exposed). The affair partners therefore work to keep each other ‘in’ the relationship by escalating involvement and increasing the other’s personal investment.
The desperate need to believe in the security of the relationship, in its ability to support and nurture, in its essential goodness, leads to what looks from the outside to be reckless behaviour. There is a mutual denial of the dangers of STDs or pregnancy.
By this time, the WS’s values systems are a LONG way from where they began.
Think back to what a values system is. It’s a set of beliefs based on a life model – the most realistic picture an individual can generate of how the world works. To support the altered values system, there has to be an altered life model (the one that says, eg, affairs won’t hurt my family).
The problem with the altered life model is that it’s not realistic. It starts from a premise that’s innately flawed – that it is OK for this individual to have this affair. The flaw distorts all logic.
Imagine that you postulated a theory that air would support your weight if there was enough of it under you, ie if you got high enough above the ground. Obviously, water supports large ships under a similar theory, so it’s a reasonable conjecture. The theory would look OK as long as you didn’t have to personally prove it. We can see that skydivers don’t appear to conform to the principle, but perhaps that’s just because they don’t get high enough?
Once you’re working to this theory, it becomes obvious that planes are a rather naïve concept. All that going-fast when all they have to do is climb up to the level where they’re supported by air molecules! The notion that satellites have to orbit at high speed is also clearly daft – at that height the trouble would be getting them down!
The affair partners are now operating far above safe oxygen levels. But to them, everything makes perfect sense.
This is ‘fog’.
The flawed model is a poor predictor. It fails as soon as it’s put to a real-world test. In fact, it fails all the time. In truth, it fails so frequently that the affairees must exert colossal energy just to keep themselves in the suspension of disbelief. And the self-delusion may eventually be exposed by real-world reactions that cannot easily be denied or ignored – the anguish of children, the disappointment on a mother’s face, the lash of a lawyer’s letter.
So what’s happening to the marriage, while all of this is going on?
To begin with, the WS moves between the two realities with a sense of excitement. It’s an escape. But, as the two realities diverge, there is increasing discomfort at the difficulty of bridging the two, of making the transition between them. To counter this, and because the affair is where the excitement is, a sense of anger, indignation and self-righteousness develops that the WS is ‘having’ to lie and deceive. If only the BS’s could be sophisticated enough to understand the benefits of the arrangement! If the BS’s were not so selfish, they would be glad that the WS’s are happy! It is infuriating that the stupid, inflexible BS’s would inevitably whinge and complain and wreck the perfect love of two people who were destined for each other…
There is no counter-balancing argument from the BS, because the BS does not know what is going on. But the likelihood is that the spouse has an instinctive awareness that something is wrong, and is becoming defensive and confrontational. The marriage is becoming an uncomfortable environment.
So the WS has now manoeuvred themselves into a position where the only source of acceptance and pleasure is with the OP. The WS inevitably moves further away from the marriage.
The affair usually loses its flavour, as the affairees begin to know each other and recognise that the affair partner is far from an improvement on the marital partner, and that the effort involved is no longer justified by the benefits. But as the emotional bond weakens, the two affairees may perversely cling to each other even more tightly, though not always at the same time. There is probably a bond of friendship, hopelessly complicated by the sexual connection and conspiracy to bteray.
By now they are in a position where exposure of the affair seems likely to end the two marriages anyway. The marriages are now so tarnished – the WS’s have moved so far away from the original values systems still supported by their spouses – that the affair, for all its misery, is now a more likely candidate for the future than the marriage. Both WS’s are locked in a death-spiral – each is terrified that the affair partner will leave the affair to recover the marriage, leaving one WS abandoned and hopeless. And at least one WS may be trapped by the terror of having to establish permanence with the affair partner, or be alone.
So what about the ‘fog’? The WS is moving between two realities; he or she is effectively two people. There is a ‘flickering’ effect, like moving between perceptions in a magic-eye picture. Sometimes WS#2 flickers into life in Reality #1. If the bad reception makes it difficult for the BS to ‘see’ the wayward spouse, the discontinuity makes it impossible for the WS to ‘see’ the old reality clearly too. WS convinces themselves that all is unchanged and well in the old life. They may even become angry if the BS is liberal with the old value system. It is necessary for the BS to be predictable via a well-understood parcel of values, in order for the WS’s deceit to work. There may also be a need, unacknowledged, for the BS to act as keeper-of-the-flame, to vicariously hold to what the WS has lost, to be a solid platform to return to.
And then comes dday, and the clash of matter and anti-matter, as the two realities meet. For the first time, the WS is presented with penetrating questions about the logic of the affair’s life-model. For the first time, the illogicality of the affair’s premise is exposed. The WS must defend the affair, or appear hilariously stupid. Defending the affair with dodgy logic has been the option for the life of the affair; the dodgy logic has been vigorously supported by the OP, so that the WS has had no practice in providing a reasonable defence. Small wonder that the WS feels threatened and humiliated and hits back. Small wonder that the arguments are so feeble – the same feeble arguments have been applauded as sage wisdom for so long, the WS is profoundly indignant at being challenged in any way. At this point, the WS provides us with all of those witty sayings that we howl at on the ‘dumb answer’threads.
At this point, the WS can head off in one of several directions. They might retreat permanently. They might reluctantly acknowledge that some of the logic was flawed, and move slowly back into the old values system. They might recognise immediately the mistake they have made, and set about with energy and determination to fix the mess they have created. Or they might settle for a fortress mentality and stubbornly defend what they’ve done, in unconscious fear that being wrong means being annihilated.
There seem to be lots of each WS type here on this board.
lildoggie,
From what I've learned, there is yet another type out there.
There is a person who believes that it is possible, normal, and acceptable to love more than one person. It's just that "this" society constrains us and we are too prudish to accept it.
SB
This is so insightful. Exactly the type of information that I can relate to.
Yes, I think WH and OW are like partners in crime which enables them to bond and digs the A hole deeper and deeper.
Yes, I think value systems have been altered. Anyone else hear the comment "Everyone has affairs" or "All married people are miserable."
Yes, WH has retreated from our kids, his family and our friends in order to avoid contact, conflict and comments.
And I wonder if the fog will every clear enough to bring WHs
original value system back to surface.
But it can never be "original" since it has been tarnished by the influence of the OP.
HH, when I first found out about A my WH did also say "everyone has affairs." And I would tell him how everytime I saw a married couple together it made me sad and he said "they are all miserable, and if they tell you any different they are lying."
He also said that we didnt have to get a divorce because we werent rich like movie stars and that he had no plans to ever get married again, marriage was a farce.
TO bad he didnt figure that out before he married me. because it wasnt a farce to me.
Pardon a T/J for a moment please...
Ok, I'm not sure if I should do this but I'm extremely exasperated. Y'all know on this thread that I've been very supportive of T2L, right? Including her decision to homeschool, right? So y'all here believe me that I'm not opposed to homeschooling, right?
I know the folks reading here are very wise, and know the MB concepts through and through, and include folks also not opposed to homeschooling.
This is NOT about homeschooling. But SeekingWife is so adamant about homeschooling that she's willing to risk permanent harm to her marriage... to harbor anger and resentment... If the way she talks to us is anything like how she talks to her H, she needs some enlightenment. IMNSHO.
I don't want to turn this into a war. And maybe y'all will disagree with my conclusion. But maybe pep, schoolbus, et al might wanna drop in on SeekingWife's thread on EN?
I heard the same thing. "Everybody's doing it, all married people are miserable, I'll never get married again."
WS's have a hard time coming up with anything original.
I heard all those things too.
The Wookie is very ashamed of the person he was then.
VERY ASHAMED.
know the folks reading here are very wise, and know the MB concepts through and through, and include folks also not opposed to homeschooling.
I dont suppose there is a homeschooling thread? I am seriously doubting the abilities of public schooling right now
Soooooo, here's some updates. I have postponed the sale date on the house until May 6th Thank God. We have accepted a bid for the short sale and go and sign the escrow papers tomorrow. I am a glad in some ways because we bought this lovely home at the high times and have lost over 200K on our property so I guess in the long run it may be an ok thing and I try to tell myself a house cannot love you back. Have been looking for a place to rent thats going to be good for the kids and I.
So here's the rest that you all probably have been waiting to hear. Whats goin on? Well I have truly been questioning a lot of the things that I have been doing and really felt that I was supposed to talk to my H again, this started initially back in February when H had told me of his plans to come home.
Now I realize this may not be the actual plan as is the way it was meant but I like what a dear friend said to me. She said I don't care about PA, PB or Divorce Remedy or what ever it is. You find T2L's plan and thats what you do. It really was an eye opener for me as sometimes you feel so much weight to continue in the Plan you are in and you literally cannot deviate from this even if you feel in your heart of hearts that you are supposed to. I guess I am posting not just for myself but for possibly anyone else who may one day possibly be in my same shoes. I have made the choice to go back into Plan A. Whoa Nelly settle downs luvs I can hear your screaming and rantings here in Cali...
At the onset of my 1st PA I did 10 weeks. I now think and wish I had gone a bit further. Yes at the time I PB'd I was broken, and part of it was I allowed expectation to enter in. I also feel that part of the reason I went into PB was I did not want my H to enjoy Thanksgiving and the Holidays and our anniversary in Plan A. I now think some of that could have been my own pride but that's neither here nor there. So far my 2nd PA has been going well. H is calling every night at 8:15 to talk with the kids. He is visiting 3 times a week with the family.
I have found out, by my super sleuth abilities(that I cannot share with you now) that my H did indeed try and break it off with Mrs. Sea Hagginess and come home! I know that he tried to tell her it was the right thing to do and that his son needed him. She of course told him all kinds of LB's and now i have proof that this ho bag does talk crap out me and she is very manipulative in a very back door way and she knows every perfect thing to say to my H.
Anyways I know you are all probably besides yourself right now and hey that's completely understandable. It took me about 3 weeks to decide to go back into it. I am talking offline to several other MB'ers who have helped me make this decision-thanks guys. I appreciate your support and ear and understanding. No it probably does not make sense but then I have to follow my heart. I will know when i can no longer do this. I know most of you know my faith in God and all i can say i know when the grace leaves then it will be time for Plan B or maybe even D. I am not opposed to Plan D, I just have not reached that yet.
Do I recommend anyone else to go back into a Plan A after being in a B? For the most Part NO. Its a bit of a challenge shifting gears but also remember the kids and i have probably Plan B;d my H about 6 months out of the last 11 as we did not find MB until Oct 2008. Anyways my suggestion go for as long as you can in Plan A. DO NOT rush your Plan B. I think in some ways I rushed it, had pride about him being around the holidays and may have really been able to do a longer PA.
So if your thinking about doing a PB, IMHO, stay in your PA a bit longer if you feel you can. No its not something that everyone can do because of the PTSD factor but if you are like me and you may be a bit stronger and able to handle a lil heavier load then go for it extend your PA. I know that Dr. Harley expresses his time frame for PA and 1 1/2 -3 months and here's my thoughts on that. I think for some this is an ideal time frame especially if emotionally you are just not doing well or if you are a person who doesn't know your own limits. I also think there are many of us BS's who may be able to go longer and I think this should be supported its still a PA. I know that one day the grace will leave me to do this and I know that I will absolutely know it. I think I have second guessed myself far more in PA than in PB. I think it may have actually have served a purpose for the 90 days that I did it. I think that my H saw another side of me, one that can and will be able to live on with out any contact with him so I have no regrets in it. But now I am seeing progress again in my PA and for the most part my H is very kind to the kids again and to me and financially is taking care of us and securing a new place for us all with any legal paper work being filed. I am very happy for this as I do not want any legal papers filed because in CA i cannot protect DS10 from having to go to the barf shack....Oh by the way the Sea Hag is so very pissed that my H is not telling his kids about her. It pisses her off bad. I am fortunate that my H has never in 11 months brought my children around the Sea hag nor mentioned her in their presence.
I still leave a few nights a week and say Im out having coffee with a friend so he doesnt get used to loyal T2L. I went out with friends on Sat in a neighboring city and H kept texting me and sending me pics. He seemed uneasy that I was with my girlfriends.
Anyways so your updated. Probably not what you expected but hey I figure might as well be honest I figured you all probably guessed that much anyways.
So how are y'all!
{{{{Hugs}}}}
Actually, it's probably what we all expected. No screaming or ranting from the peanut gallery, as it was pretty predictable.
Truth is, you may recover your marriage in spite of not working the plans. I blew things a bit at the end and still recovered. But I realize that was in spite of my weakness and not because of it.
I think you may be kidding yourself that Plan A is the stronger path. I've seen many BS's here indulging themselves in that thinking because they were just too weak to follow through with Plan B. BS's who stay in an indefinite Plan A do so out of fear, not strength.
No it probably does not make sense but then I have to follow my heart.
That type of thinking is what allowed your WH to have an affair. He's probably even said those exact words.
I really do hope and pray that your marriage will recover.
Are you back to attending church regularly?
*HUGS* ello LUv! truth is OW IS in fact LBing her but off. WH is spending less and less time with her....which may be good as he may have gotten himself into a situation he was unsure of how to get out of. It's like he's weening off her.
Statistics show...men are turned off when women bash other women.....She is doing the work for you there.
I really do hope and pray that your marriage will recover.
Are you back to attending church regularly?
HI T2L!!!!!!!
WELCOME BACK!!!!!!!!
No 2x4's from me. I know it isn't "kosher" but it sure seems to me like the success stories usually go through at least one "coming home" before the WH meets all the requirements. Usually called false recovery, but I spose calling it a second PA fits as well.
And I am a fan of staying in the PA just as long as humanly possible.
Do you want to let us know details? or is now not a good time?
*HUGS*******!!!!!!!!!!
Finally young lady!
I've always thought that about Plan A. If the BS is STRONG enough to handle it and KNOWS when she/he's had enough before the LB is emptied completely... then they should go for it. As long as it's clear to their WS that it won't go on indefinitely.
I don't think my marriage would have recovered if I had gone to Plan B because back then because my DH was a "whatever" kind of guy. Don't call? Whatever. Don't come by? Whatever. He just didn't care about anything. Especially himself.
It's hard for me to say though because I never did either one.
You'll know when it's time to pull the plug.
G'morning. I have been going to church on Wednesdays and have been in prayer over this a feel confirmation came for what I am doing. You may be right statistically. Ya see I am no longer afraid of the big "D", of starting over, etc etc. No I sure don't want it but just like I have said all along I don't want it I want my marriage 1st but if that does not happen I know as sure as sparks fly upwards that I am going to live a happy life because that's my nature deep down inside.
This may look wrong in all ways but I had to follow my heart and the direction I felt to go. At 1st when I felt to go this route, I really argued and struggled with it believe or not but I came to fact that as long as I am obedient to do what I feel I am supposed to do no matter what happens I can live with MYSELF and not just an outcome. Does that make sense. Now I absolutely don't recommend what I am doing to everyone because my story is not true for everyone. I feel I am a grounded person with good morals and character and I try and search my hearts and motives in every situation. I try not to allow myself to give massive excuses and I don't feel my choice to go back into PA is an excuse but a choice. Some BS's must be in PB and there is no other choice for them. I do know my H still has a connection with me and for some reason he has not filed for D. I heard the other day from his brother that his mother(the skank that is supporting him) said well you know they will probably get back together. I think that's great but I know that this PA is not a lifestyle. I don't plan on living this way. I know the God I serve and he would not expect that from me. He has given me a grace for my H that supersedes my own thoughts and at times drives me crazy because I have gotten to point where I feel like C'ya later dude but then I feel a complete check in my heart that I am absolutely not supposed to do this YET. Now if my H had not been financially supporting us or I was worried for our safety, or he spent us into oblivion etc I would have slapped his butt with at least a LSA. But I have been fortunate. He has been supporting us, yup he was emotionally crazy and a bunch of entitlement going on but has not brought my children around that HO and does not expose them to her in any way which the state of Cali could careless about, he has been much gentler the last few weeks and calls the kids nightly. Yup Ho is still around, but I can see the calls are less and when they talk they talk for 5 mins and when we talk we talk for 30 mins or more and convo is one of his needs.
I don't want to be a bad example for others running the Plans because PB is absolutely necessary is many cases, I guess I posted for those few who may feel to go longer in PA or go back in PA but don't feel they have the support to do so. I think both plans in themselves are good plans. But for me this is the way I know I am supposed to go, I feel I am being led this direction and if I am wrong no biggie I'm not afraid of it anymore. Before I didnt want to do something wrong, but not I just want to be obedient, that's a little scarier to miss for me than being wrong.
Now here's my disclaimer, if your H is not financially providing for you, if he is exhibiting violence etc please protect yourself and do what you need to do. Don't make PA and excuse. I kicked H out because he yelled at my kids. He knows why. He knows I will slap his butt with papers because we have had several conversations where we joked about it. I am not a weak person and if you've met me you know that. Yes I am soft but that is not weak, yes I am compassionate but I am not weak. I can do this PA again because of the conditions surrounding me that may not be the same for you. Weigh it carefully because when they say you can lose your love you truly can, I've been pretty close but God has given me the ability to some how(beyond all reasoning of my own) the capacity to still love him.
Ok Janynepooh, details....well lets just say I've found things out because I've gotten the key! I wish I could let you all in! I am nervous that what I have uncovered could be found out it would be a huge LB! But I have read some stuff straight from the HAG! No neither H nor Hag knows. Let's just say I am not a computer scientist but I am computer savvy just a lil LMAO LMAO! Man its great. I know stuff some BS will never know! I hate the fact I may have to confess if he comes home but I guess I will have to trust his otherwise I ain't ever telling LOLOLOLOL. The hag is a massive manipulator and she hates DD18 more than me. The stuff they spew is just a piece of work. OW is visiting the myspace pages of me, DD18, my BFF, my other BFF, hope's, SIHW, my sons, gosh pretty much anyone I am in contact with. But last week We all locked our pages but DD18 didn't want to she messes with her on it. So yesterday alone she visited DD18's page 8 times. WE have secret trackers installed thats how we know. She is very worried about me, my fam and my friends. I told H last week about it.
I know because of my super sluthness LOL that the lease is up April 1st and that they stay til April 30th. I saw no renewal papers for the lease and H has told me he is not renewing the lease. Financially he cannot and I have verified he has luckily not been pouring money to the Hag. What he said about giving us most of the money was true. They split the rent in half and he pays like 1 utility. Thats it. He pays his personal bills and give the rest to us.
As stupid as it sounds he is more committed to me and the kids, not a full commitment obviously but imagine this. You are the Hag, your new man has not divorced his wife in 11 months, he gives her most of the money, you know that he is around her because you see it on myspace, he won't put his kids around you, and makes no commitment to you in anyway other than saying you are a couple.
But anyways I don't know how this will end but I've made choices I can live with long term even if the big D ends up being what happens, to me thats a form of recovery because when we all get here we can't imagine that or say that feel ok with ourselves know its a possibility.
So Janey what details?? Sorry I blabbed so long I forgot!
The Hag doesn't like DD18 because your dear dau has this really annoying habit of speaking her mind. Couple that with the fact that the stuff running around in her brain and out her mouth is the gosh-honest truth, and it shines a light on the Hag's cucaracha behaviors...well, HOW DARE AN 18 YEAR OLD SPEAK SOOTH?
Way to go, mom...teaching the kids morals and stuff. How could you?
(giggle)
Really tho...WAY TO GO!
You are a supa star!
I know you'll go faaa.
Weather together or alone.
As a strong beautiful woman you'll always be known.
And that's my random attempt at poetry for the day.
Btw I started the shakes this mornin.....ok the crush of my hunger cravings was instantanious.....I am lovin this.
You are a supa star!
I know you'll go faaa.
Weather together or alone.
As a strong beautiful woman you'll always be known.
And that's my random attempt at poetry for the day.
Btw I started the shakes this mornin.....ok the crush of my hunger cravings was instantanious.....I am lovin this.
Yes it gets even better the longer you take them. Right now yoru body is probably stabilizing esp if you have been on a sugar or carb binge. The great thing is adding these helps those massive cravings. I do not recommend eliminating carbs like Adkins but having a few good ones and in portion control. I usually have a piece of fruit like an apple or pear in afternoon when I get tired its a energy boost and then I have a portion at night with my dinner, but a good choice like sweet potato, or any potato, brown rice etc. I stay away from Pasta except for Sundays when I allow myself to have whatever I want that day.
I'm glad your liking them tho!
As an active wayward, I would have LOVED your new plan!
Keeps the fantasy alive that everything will work out for MY (waywards) benefit.
Happy Family
Happy OW
Happy Fantasy
Happy Divorce
Happily ever after
A Waywards dream
Sorry to rain on the "I'm happy for you" parade, because I'm very sad for you that you were not strong enough to protect yourself and your children from WH's Godless ABUSE right under your nose.
I'm praying for God to intevene in spite of your's and WH's pride.
I'm in tears for you, praying, because I know how waywards think.
What about like whole grain pastas? We started using those?
I will continue to pray for you and your family!
Trying, I am sorry but you won't end the affair with a plan A. Experts here can speak to you and we all care, but without a crisp, hard continuous plan B, you will definitly NOT end the affair. Even WITH THE PERFECT PLAN B you may not end the affair,,,,
But at least you will have a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE of ending it if you do a PLAN B. You will have ZERO chance of ending it with what you are thinking of doing now.
Trying, I am sorry but you won't end the affair with a plan A. Experts here can speak to you and we all care, but without a crisp, hard continuous plan B, you will definitly NOT end the affair. Even WITH THE PERFECT PLAN B you may not end the affair,,,,
But at least you will have a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE of ending it if you do a PLAN B. You will have ZERO chance of ending it with what you are thinking of doing now.
I disagree. Actually, I think she has a VERY good chance of ending it based on what I know about her and her husband personally.
Tst, but what you don't know is that OW is NOT happy. She is coming unglued and LBing all over the place. Her psycho behavior will go a long way in ending this affair. Her WH is already beginning to "see" her for what she is.
Plan A vs Plan B is no longer the issue IMO.
It comes down to T2L has shown that she is to weak to maintain boundaries on HER terms. As a FWH, this is EXACTLY how it looks.
WH has WON the little battles and has also now won the war.
He can cake walk, and he has prevailed! T2L is even going to reinforce his entitlement behavior by returning to a Plan A.
Even if WH comes home now... It will be an arduous and abusive recovery with such an unbroken WH.
Even if WH comes home now... It will be an arduous and abusive recovery with such an unbroken WH.
I don't think so... how can you make such a bold declaration? Do you KNOW him? Do you KNOW for a fact that he is/will be unbroken?
I don't see T2L as weak AT ALL. I see her as a strong woman of God who KNOWS her husband well and LISTENS to what God is telling her.
PM, I'm only talking from a position of a wayward.
In my case, now a FWH.
And I appreciate that Tst, you are one of the good guys around here.
I believe that her WH is so CLOSE to coming back home and making things right... can't tell you exactly why, but I strongly believe this.
Trying, I am sorry but you won't end the affair with a plan A. Experts here can speak to you and we all care, but without a crisp, hard continuous plan B, you will definitly NOT end the affair. Even WITH THE PERFECT PLAN B you may not end the affair,,,,
But at least you will have a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE of ending it if you do a PLAN B. You will have ZERO chance of ending it with what you are thinking of doing now.
I disagree. Actually, I think she has a VERY good chance of ending it based on what I know about her and her husband personally.
Ditto here I have to agree with PM. Knowing what I also know personally of T2L and her husband....I think this is having a very positive influence on his road home.
HI T2,
WOW... you really must have God whispering in your heart! You sound inspired!! I'm really proud of you!!!
Trying, I am sorry but you won't end the affair with a plan A. Experts here can speak to you and we all care, but without a crisp, hard continuous plan B, you will definitly NOT end the affair. Even WITH THE PERFECT PLAN B you may not end the affair,,,,
But at least you will have a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE of ending it if you do a PLAN B. You will have ZERO chance of ending it with what you are thinking of doing now.
That would be VERY true.. IF.. PB was designed to end an affair… it’s NOT… It’s designed to prepare the BS for divorce and protect any remaining love for the WS. Not to effect… to prepare and protect the BS… that is what Harley says anyway.. I don’t know about the other “experts”
I think you may be kidding yourself that Plan A is the stronger path. I've seen many BS's here indulging themselves in that thinking because they were just too weak to follow through with Plan B. BS's who stay in an indefinite Plan A do so out of fear, not strength.
I have to TOTALLY disagree with this on so many levels… It takes MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH (did I say much?) more strength…faith….tenacity and COURAGE to stay in Plan “A” Much more… Plan “B” is so misused with disappointing results here it’s amazing… One bump in the road… and the board lights up with the “B” brigade.. Plan “B” used like this is simply hiding your head in the sand and waiting for the storm to “blow over” itself….There are certainly times for PB but it MUST have a good PA in front of it or it’s pretty much useless.
A PB without the PA in front of it is like sending troops in waving red flags
and blowing horns saying here we come without any air support!… There has been no ENs met… there has been MANY LBs still fresh in the WSs mind and heart… And mostly…because there isn’t any time to show a change in commitment to the marriage by the BS and a change in dedication of meeting the EMs of the WS (which is what left them vulnerable to the affair in the first place) and HOPE that if the WS re-commits, there will be a DIFFERENT marriage than he one they ran from. The WS has no reason to return and views the Plan “B” as manipulative, cruel and vengeful..
So… as HARD is Plan “A” is…giving and not receiving…loving a stone wall of hate and resentment… Loving a person that is committing the ultimate disrespect to you while raining love and affection attention and presents on the OP….
It takes ENORMOUS courage to do a good PA… and you better hitch your heart to the cross while your at it because you won’t get though it without him… not in one piece anyway… and THEN.. you can GROW as a person and become the incredibly STRONG and attractive person Lea is becoming. A beacon of hope to us… and a wise and courageous mother to her DDS.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Now T2,…. This is important…. It’s not over by a long shot… the OW is blowing to bits right now… BUT.. she will get ONE get out of BI**CH free card…
She will convince your WH that the ONLY reason she is like this is because she loves him so much.,. and she is devastated and scared because they “had plans” and she will be lost without him.
“You know me” “I’m not this person, I can’t believe I acted this way” “It’s just that…It’s just that (Prompt tears…wait..…..OK NOW…Perfect….) I love you sooo much… and I don’t want to go on living without you” “If you go back to that woman that (insert ALL the bad memories known to her including but not limited to)
Re-Writing history ( you stopped loving 5 years ago and you being the WONDERFUL unselfish person you are stayed with that HORRIBLE cold woman for the children)
The time she did THIS to you… I remember holding you while you almost cried telling ME… you never had the courage to tell ANYONE before.. you poor thing… YADA YADA YADA>..
(now… insert a couple of good memories from the beginning of the affair)
Remember the time we walked on the beach… and we stopped and gazed into each others eyes and you told me… (insert whatever bull he told her at the time of weakness) and I said to you (Ditto) and we held each other so close and PROMISED (guilt successfully inserted) (EXCUSE ME ONE SECOND T2
OH... that was tough to type...WAIT..
)
OK... Better sorry about that...
BAck to this...
“ WELL THAT IS THE PERSON I REALLY AM!!” That wife of yours is just trying to break us up so she can RIP YOUR HEART OUT AGAIN” “And if you let her do that to US (reaffirming the commitment he’s breaking) I don’t want to live (Fear of suicide from page 127 of the OPs handbook to h*ll successfully inserted preying strongly on the already overblown ego of a man with TWO women that NEED him) ANNNNDDDDD BANG…..
YES YES ……WE HAVE LIFTOFF!! DESTINATION…LA LA LAND!!
But..it is how YOU my friend react or don’t react to this crucial time in the rollercoaster/waffle session that will determine whether or not it sticks or becomes the weak last ditch effort of a desperate OP…..
You HAVE to prepare for this…it may not but most likely it will come… sorry to say… but it will be hard after all the progress….
But don’t worry… you are STRONG now… and when it comes you’ll be ready and it will bother you as much as a flea on a dog….
Because at one time you were alone in this fight... But NOW... you have the Almighty one fighting for you...Nothing is impossible with GOD!!!..
and also you were a merely a Goddess but now.. you are becoming the “WARRIOR GODDESS” More powerful than ANY little mousey OW… and THEN…. When THAT move is over..
(Complete plan can be found in the OPs handbook to h*ll revised 2009 edition pages 103-154)
All the kings horses and all the kings men won’t be able to scrape together all the little tiny parts of the OW again….
GOoD Luck and Prayers, Frank
P.S. princessmeggy nice defense...I like your style...
and also you were a merely a Goddess but now.. you are becoming the “WARRIOR GODDESS” More powerful than ANY little mousey OW…
Where's the little emoticon for goosebumps?
I have a book you should read T2L....
It's called The Heretic Queen. I could not put it down...took me 3 days flat to read it.
History shows the pairing of pharaoh Ramses and Queen Nerfertari were a love match. He loved her so deeply....but she wasn't his only wife.
The story goes through the warring of both sides for Pharaoh's love and for him to make a decision on who will be queen.
Even tho she was put through extreme hard times. Even in the face of dealing with Liset the other wife who seemed like a spoiled brat with hardly any morals.Nefertari executed an excellent plan a all throughout the book. It is such an inspiration to read and I still thumb through it.
The childbirth scene had me bawling. I highly recommend it.
Trying, I am sorry but you won't end the affair with a plan A. Experts here can speak to you and we all care, but without a crisp, hard continuous plan B, you will definitly NOT end the affair. Even WITH THE PERFECT PLAN B you may not end the affair,,,,
But at least you will have a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE of ending it if you do a PLAN B. You will have ZERO chance of ending it with what you are thinking of doing now.
I disagree. Actually, I think she has a VERY good chance of ending it based on what I know about her and her husband personally.
Ditto here I have to agree with PM. Knowing what I also know personally of T2L and her husband....I think this is having a very positive influence on his road home.
Another person knowing behind the scenes stuff supporting T2L
I'm so hoping that the people here who know that "behind the scenes" stuff are right.
I did Plan A for much too long. My ex and I were strong Christians until his affair. Then he completely seemed to lose his values.
The affair did end, but I was done. Not because of the affair itself, but because of all of the respect and love I lost for him.
T2L says that her husband is taking care of the family financially, even though they are losing their home. He is going to help find a place for them to rent, meanwhile living with the OW and contributing to HER household.
I'm really hoping and praying that this comes out okay, but my bet is that T2L won't want to reconcile once the affair ends. She is not going to protect her love for him.
I'm so hoping that the people here who know that "behind the scenes" stuff are right.
I did Plan A for much too long. My ex and I were strong Christians until his affair. Then he completely seemed to lose his values.
The affair did end, but I was done. Not because of the affair itself, but because of all of the respect and love I lost for him.
T2L says that her husband is taking care of the family financially, even though they are losing their home. He is going to help find a place for them to rent, meanwhile living with the OW and contributing to HER household.
I'm really hoping and praying that this comes out okay, but my bet is that T2L won't want to reconcile once the affair ends. She is not going to protect her love for him.
I am just going to re iterate some thing T2L has already posted.
First no matter if he had an affair or not the would have lost the house due to WH company closing. He took a MAJOR loss in pay. They would still be looking for another place but maybe further down the road.
Second WHls lease was up april first and he is not renewing with sea hag....and as it seems...he isn't really staying there either.
He seems to be gradually weening away from ow. Which is good the more she LB'S the more he will pull away. Maybe then she will find her own "corasone" and leave T2L's husband alone.
Well, yes, hubby took a cut in pay. But TL2 has been posting since September. The pay cut just happened recently, and for the family home to be about to be repossessed, hubby has not been paying what he should for many months.
He would rather live with and spend family money on the OW.
Yes there WAS the cost of his rent....but T2L has acounted for the rest of his spenditures.....the loss of pay was a few months ago and he is not nearly making anything close to what he was....I mean business has sucked for him....litterally.
I'm not trying to argue with ya believer...I just talk with T2L a lot as well as a few other members....I have been behind the scenes with them so to say.
The affair did end, but I was done. Not because of the affair itself, but because of all of the respect and love I lost for him.
But see, that's the difference between you and T2L. She ISN'T done and HASN'T lost all of her respect and love for him.
T2L says that her husband is taking care of the family financially, even though they are losing their home. He is going to help find a place for them to rent, meanwhile living with the OW and contributing to HER household.
When my DH did what he did, we ended up losing our home, our cars, and more. No one is saying what T2L's WH is doing or has been doing is right, but it IS possible for them to start over and rebuild if WH turns around. Me and my DH have done this. T2L and her WH can do it too, as long as they both are willing. Is it going to be easy? Heck no. It's harder than anything I've ever done in my life. But it was worth it. Well worth it.
I agree with PM.
The economic downturn pretty much ensured they would lose the house, T2L's WH has not been on full pay for some months. I also agree that T2L still loves her WH despite many things. it may be that this is the path she needs to take to lose her $LB for him. I do know what her "Im done" plan is, and I want copies
While Flick and I havent lost a home...yet..because of his A, I am losing my career, we are moving towns, and have very little future security. These are the legacy an A gives you. Losing a house isnt so bad. Losing yourself is worse...
I'm really praying for her and the family, and wanting so much for hubby to wake up. I'm certain he will, and hope it won't be too late. Praying for protection for T2L's heart.
I'm so hoping that the people here who know that "behind the scenes" stuff are right.
I did Plan A for much too long. My ex and I were strong Christians until his affair. Then he completely seemed to lose his values.
The affair did end, but I was done. Not because of the affair itself, but because of all of the respect and love I lost for him.
T2L says that her husband is taking care of the family financially, even though they are losing their home. He is going to help find a place for them to rent, meanwhile living with the OW and contributing to HER household.
I'm really hoping and praying that this comes out okay, but my bet is that T2L won't want to reconcile once the affair ends. She is not going to protect her love for him.
Exactly! Plan B executed after a stellar plan A is to protect the remaining love and respect the BS has for the WS. Not only does T2L risk coming out of this with extreme PTSD but she risks losing all love and respect for her H.
Those of you "behind the scenes". How many of you have suffered from PTSD? How many of you went through horrid FR and FR because you could not find the strength (yes strength) to go into plan B?
T2L, I think you are being wrongly advised. Plan A forever is not what Dr. Harley intended and especially for the BW.
Gmorning y'all!
Thanks for the support and the 2X4's I know all are motivated by love so its all good!
Ok so for the financial stuff. Our taxes that were done this year reflected a 30K reduction in pay, that was a bit of change. Then at the start of this year H's employer cut the commission rates by half and his job is solely commission. So he changed employers about a month ago and the commission rate is higher but the volume is lower so we took a little more of a hit. But I have found out alot more details of what was going on at his previous employers and how H was moved around several times many other things and it appears that the company is really in trouble. I have been able to see spending due to my super sleuth abilities and it does appear that he has been honest in telling me he gives the majority of his pay to us. I saw this with my own eyes so that is how I know.
Going back into PA does probably appear weak but let me tell you if I was weak there is no way in God's green earth that I could do this. The shift from B to A itself was really really hard and I do not recommend it for the faint. I struggled for a few days before I got solid. So my 1st advice is stay in the PA for as long as you can before even considering PB. I feel pretty strong in it now.
My H knows that I am strong enough to cut him off I have done it for 6 out of 11 months. For all I know he may be waiting for me to cut him off again. He knows I can do it and he knows I'm not afraid of it.
Yes Please please please pray for all of us in the T2L house. I know you guys its doesn't make sense. Sometimes it doesn't to me but I want to be obedient to what I felt in my heart I was directed to do. I am not saying this is for everyone and every story because it is not. Each of us can use the tools in SAA which are outstanding BTW, and then follow their heart. Yes they can be wrong and sometimes they can be right but recovery too is following your own gut and instinct and maybe even God, since he is the master of using the foolish things to confound the wise. I felt I had gotten so religious and rigid that even if for some odd reason I was supposed to go another way I couldn't and that's the real problem.
Yes, I may lose some in my LB, yes I may end up hating the man, yes it may end in D. Point is I'm not afraid of it anymore. Will it hurt...yup I'm still human. Will I 2nd guess myself, hmmm maybe its human nature, but i have to do what is in my heart and thats part of recovery on a personal level. Recovery to be able as a person to not be afraid to make decisions and to do what you feel you need to do. After Dday most of us are paralyzed to make any decision because we are in fear. We are so weak and we appear weak. Believe you me my H does not see a weak woman stand in front of him when he's around. And luckily I have been casually able to refute the trash the Sea Hag has said about me-man it freakin rocks.
I know not all the stories that recovered maritally had perfect PA's or even did PB's so I am hoping to join them. Maybe it will and maybe it won't but point is I'm not afraid anymore to make a mistake and if I follow the leading in my heart it don't matter I was true to myself. All of this is messy and no one is going to get out without mud on their face, there is no perfect way but SAA does give you some OPTIONS on roads you can take and things you can implement.
But I am hoping you will still stand in the gap with me and pray with me for him. Really sometimes I don't even feel I stand for me and the kids anymore. I am standing for my H and one time associate pastor and best friend. I am very concerned about his soul quite honestly it almost takes a back burner to my marriage.
I know I will absolutely know when I am supposed to shift. I'm not nuts and I will know it just like I knew it this time.
Anyways had good PA visit yesterday. He thanked me and the kids for a great time and DS10 is very happy with his daddy around a few times a week.
Well I'm off. Hugs to all.
I was behind the scenes at one time.
I suffered greatly from PTSD, though not nearly as bad as some I know. This was after only about 4 months of Plan A.
T2L, I love ya dearly, and I have a fear you are mistaking your own desires for the leading of the Lord, taking back for yourself a battle you once gave to Him to fight.
I was behind the scenes at one time.
I suffered greatly from PTSD, though not nearly as bad as some I know. This was after only about 4 months of Plan A.
T2L, I love ya dearly, and I have a fear you are mistaking your own desires for the leading of the Lord, taking back for yourself a battle you once gave to Him to fight.
I too was once "behind the scenes". And when I was, WH sent T2L's IMs the most horrible, ugly, ANTI CHRISTIAN and ANTI WOMEN comments you can imagine. Stuff we never passed on to T2L. Stuff I will not repeat here. I am worried.
You know the old adeg "actions speak louder than words".....if you are currently seeing his actions from behind the scenes you would see a plan B would KILL any possiblilty of saving this marrage.....T2L is making A LOT of headway with WH.
Things are moving in a more positive direction.....we see this. If so many people who know what's going on...you need to trust those people....because it's not JUST one person it's multiple people. Very smart, intelligent people with great instincts.
There are people with good experience like lil doggy and princess meggy, and frank (who has been here a long time....sorry frank not saying your old) guiding her she she is not making uninformed inexperienced choices.
I have come to know T2L Very well and she seeks advice and education from these people before she makes decisions....her decisions are by no means rash.
T2L, I think you are being wrongly advised. Plan A forever is not what Dr. Harley intended and especially for the BW.
Oh gosh NO. I have always said PA is not a lifestyle. I am aware of PTSD and at this point every BS is going to have some level of this whether they even do a PA or not. Everything you did and lived before you found out now falls in that category because you will forever feel it all was a lie. That's gonna happen whether you PA or not and that's the sad truth of it. But I know even if I don't recover martially or not that I know a God who heals emotions because He's done it for me before. I had a horrrrrrrible childhood and God worked me thru much of it.
But yes you are correct PA is not a lifestyle not for me and not for anyone. I can only be responsible for following whats in my heart to do. Ya know the thing is, is non plan on earth can guarantee recovery it's just that simple. There are things we can implement to increase the chances maybe a little or protect us if anything but as hard as it is to hear this for all of us there are no guarantees, well maybe death, taxes and the grave. There are just no guarantees even if you run a perfect plan.
I know I'll know when its time for this to be done.
T2L, I only say this because even one less BS hurt in ways that are permanently damaging is my goal.
can only be responsible for following whats in my heart to do.
Hearts are fickle, that is why only fools listen to their hearts (well fools and OW). Use your brain here, not the fickle organ in your chest cavity. (so to speak) That is why Dr. Harley has his methods and they work because they are logical and counter-intuitive.
I do wish you success T2L but I hope that success brings you real joy, not false happiness. God bless.
Yes, God Bless.
Hi T2L, checking in. Stay strong and you know even if there are differences of opinions on the board that we all want the same -- restored marriages that will be strong and happy and A resistant.
I can attest to T2L dealing with WH and still staying strong. I heard conversations she had with him and there was no R talk, no emotions, just direct and to the point. She could detach.
In contrast to myself that would practically fall apart and get emotional in trying to talk to my wayward and did a horrible Plan A.
I know I did a stinky set of plans - and I think that is the reason that the adultry continued as long as it did.
I just don't want that for you, T2.
Do what you HAVE to...what you think is right. That's all we can ask of you, anyway.
We just want you to be safe.
T2L, you don't need our permission to work through this time in your life however you see fit (obviously). It's your marriage, your life, and your family. Everyone here has the same hope for your marriage....that it may recover.
I do wish that you would stop referring to yourself as stronger than those who "need" Plan B. Although I recovered before I went to Plan B, I find this attitude self-righteous and a slap in the face of some of my dear friends who were strong women IN THE MIDST of maintaining a solid Plan B. They didn't Plan B out of weakness, my dear. They Plan B'd out of commitment, resolve, and self-control.
I trust the behind-the-scenes folks. They are not newbies, they know how to apply MB, *plus* they know details pertinent to this particular situation.
Cool post PLEASE HELP.
I do wish that you would stop referring to yourself as stronger than those who "need" Plan B. Although I recovered before I went to Plan B, I find this attitude self-righteous and a slap in the face of some of my dear friends who were strong women IN THE MIDST of maintaining a solid Plan B. They didn't Plan B out of weakness, my dear. They Plan B'd out of commitment, resolve, and self-control.
Huh? Where did you read that?
I don't think that's what T2L ment. I believe she was coming from the stand point the she has the strength to go from B back to A....which is really hard in it's self....I know a lot who will agree Plan A is very hard to maintain and draining. It takes a lot of work and perseverance to continue it.
I don't think she was knocking on anyone....she was just saying Plan B is not for her right now. If things don't work out B might be an option later on.
Huh? Where did you read that?
No its not something that everyone can do because of the PTSD factor but if you are like me and you may be a bit stronger and able to handle a lil heavier load then go for it extend your PA.
I know that Dr. Harley expresses his time frame for PA and 1 1/2 -3 months and here's my thoughts on that. I think for some this is an ideal time frame especially if emotionally you are just not doing well or if you are a person who doesn't know your own limits. I also think there are many of us BS's who may be able to go longer…
Now I absolutely don't recommend what I am doing to everyone because my story is not true for everyone. I feel I am a grounded person with good morals and character and I try and search my hearts and motives in every situation. I try not to allow myself to give massive excuses and I don't feel my choice to go back into PA is an excuse but a choice. Some BS's must be in PB and there is no other choice for them.
The shift from B to A itself was really really hard and I do not recommend it for the faint.
The shift from B to A itself was really really hard and I do not recommend it for the faint.
I do not recommend it.
My prayers are with you and your family.
As stupid as it sounds he is more committed to me and the kids, not a full commitment obviously
So you are comparing who gets the most commitment???? You’ve got to be kidding me, T2L!
She gets 40; you get 60??? At what percentage do you decide is too much?
You said over and over these last several months that you would not settle, but it sounds like you already have.
but imagine this. You are the Hag, your new man has not divorced his wife in 11 months, he gives her most of the money, you know that he is around her because you see it on myspace, he won't put his kids around you, and makes no commitment to you in anyway other than saying you are a couple.
Imagine this….
You are the wife, your husband has not stopped boinking OW in 15 months, he gives her most of his time, you know that because he STILL lives with her even though he said he was coming home, he is a part-time dad as little or as often as he feels like it, and makes no commitment to you in anyway other than saying he isn’t yet divorcing you.
Sorry had to go back and read original posts....posting from my phone and when someone quotes it cuts off like half of the right side of the screen.....love my G1 phone !
"No its not something that everyone can do because of the PTSD factor but if you are like me and you may be a bit stronger and able to handle a lil heavier load then go for it extend your PA."
Ok she is saying going from B back to plan A isn't for everyone....itls very tough....T2L is a very tough lady and she had learned to deal and go through with a longer Plan A which will be a lot harder since there was a Plan B in between plan A's. I don't read into it much more than that......it was a comment more on how she knows she has the strength to deal with the problem.....I don't read that it was directed towards anyone else but herself.
"I know that Dr. Harley expresses his time frame for PA and 1 1/2 -3 months and here's my thoughts on that. I think for some this is an ideal time frame especially if emotionally you are just not doing well or if you are a person who doesn't know your own limits. I also think there are many of us BS's who may be able to go longer
Continuation.....must have hit the character limit...
Ok she is quoting Dr. Harley...that's not her thoughts.....the only though she had here is that she believes people here do have the strength to persavere.
" Now I absolutely don't recommend what I am doing to everyone because my story is not true for everyone. I feel I am a grounded person with good morals and character and I try and search my hearts and motives in every situation. I try not to allow myself to give massive excuses and I don't feel my choice to go back into PA is an excuse but a choice. Some BS's must be in PB and there is no other choice for them."
Ok so she is adding a disclaimer that she is not an example for everyone as she is handling her own situation and the outcome is unknown. The last sentance is true.....some BS's here have done what they can and Plan B is there final resort.
But this isn't putting anyone down for going to plan B.
"The shift from B to A itself was really really hard and I do not recommend it for the faint."
This is VERY true....and not recommended by Dr. Harley. Dr. Harley has said this himself.
T2L,
You have in your sig line;
02/22/09 H says he is planning to come home. He has a plan.
Planning to come home is NOT a plan.
Do you have a list of what you expect from your wayward if he comes home?
I know you HAD a plan that included a list of requirements in your plan B letter.
As a FWH, I know I would not take the requirements in that letter seriously any longer.
Would you please post what you are going to require from him.Is anger management part of that plan? It should be based on;
----------9/02/08
He's so angry. He had some anger issues her and there over the marriage, never anything abusive physical, maybe throwing a chair or something or punching a wall. Thought it was just a testosterone guy thing.
Is going to AA & staying sober included? It needs to be based on;
---------- 9/29/08
Now he's, I think a functioning alcoholic and angry and yucky.
and
-----------9/30/09
So, during the 1 weeks he started with the old behavior of getting angry and drinking heavily
T2L, I don't care what vets are advising you, even if Dr. H himself were in this loop, I would tell you the same thing I am saying now.......
I see way too many red flags in this new plan C
I see a wayward that is
extremely abusive, anger issues prior to the A, alcoholic drinking problems, and has been in an active affair for 2 years now.
As I said before,
this new plan would have made me very happy as an active wayward. Extremely happy if I were an active alcoholic too.Regretfully, I know Mr. T2L better than most of you,
as I was once him. And I'm here to remind you that....
This man is still NOT your husband!
This man is still an ABUSIVE ALIEN!
I don't think there should be any discussion on what plan is better - A or B. Nor should there be discussion on who should be in what plan / when.
There is a natural order to the MB program. And I think deviation from it, or customizing it, or making it your own version is a BIG MISTAKE.
Bouncing back to Plan A cuz you think you're tough isn't part of the program.
Bouncing back to Plan A because OW is having a meltdown isn't part of the program.
Bouncing back to Plan A because he SAYS he's coming home is NOT part of the program.
Allowing him to come around home ...inviting him to cake-eat...because he's GONNA come home is rather foolish IMO.
His words are only words.
Just like mine are....
tst:
Yeah for you for saying what probably lots of long timers are thinking.
FRIENDS of T2L:
This is not middle school. Don't confuse friendship loyalty with stating/tearing down anothers opinion to the contrary.
Sorry, but there is no "inside information". WS, as I have read on this site time and time again, are pretty much following the script.
T2L: Good Luck to you. I have heard you defend and excuse everything this WS has done. BUT the "other woman" is still scum and a Sea Hag, right?
--Well for playing the "let's share this dude" game, what does that make you? Or HIM?!?
Even if he leaves his OW in April, what are you really winning?
He's the bad end of a booby prize.
At some point your FOG will clear and you will be hurt (ashamed -?- ) of this game.
Please take DD18 out of this picture. She needs a student's life. Now she has a "sea hag is spying on me- thru facebook life." What is this doing for HER?
Again, Good Luck to you. God does not make junk, nor spouses that are to hang around for "s- seconds" of their intended spouses time/money and love.
You are too good for this.
Everyone has a good opinion and a right to share it...we all can debate this...you can tell T2L's "friends" who are advising her (some who have been on this board waaaaay longer than any of us) that we are mis advising her....we can all add our positives and negatives.
We can fiercly support her or adimmatly point out she is and will fail. But in the end it's HER plan And only she will see weather it succeeds or fails.
I think T2L put it best "no plan can guarantee success."
SIHW
I don't know your story at all.
But, you had to have been a wayward! Yea? Na?
If not, you sure sound like one to me!
Would you please post what you are going to require from him.
Yes.. Please tell us what selfish demands you will use to drive your WH back into the arms of OW with WHEN he decides to come home... Where is the rolleyss when you need it??
(Preparing to duck)
You mean it's a selfish demand for a BS to ask a wayward to not punch holes through the wall's? to not throw chairs? to actually stay sober? to end the affair?
Heck if those are selfish demands, T2L may as well move in with sea hag and share! At least it would save money.
Expecting a wayward to have EP's would be a selfish demand too?
Right?
Or NC?
Right?
PLEASE HELP, with all due respect, thats just silly!
T2L may as well move in with sea hag and share! At least it would save money.
Hey at least there housing situation will be resolved.
Haha *snort*
Okok I know lame joke.
Ello again, poppin on quickly. I see its been a busy discussion.
Let's see yes he is a typical WS in every way. Yes he had preexisting anger issues which flared up on occasion, but mostly his moodiness and inability to be happy was most of the problems in our marriage.
He was very mixed up and yes still a bit as well, but that is not anything out of the norm for a WS. He does have some things to work out inside of him that have nothing to do with me or the marriage. He has since admitted that to me that he has a huge "hole" inside of him and he does not know why its there or even what to do with it. This was a huge admittance to me and to his self. A few months ago He has said part of the reason he has not come home yet was because he knew he had anger issues and that he does not want to put the kids and i through any more of it so this admittance is a break thru as for him as well. Is he there yet no? Can he get to where I need him, I do not know I am not a fortune teller. But I also remember that King David was an adulterer and really just a low down dog but God called him a man after God's heart and this man was far far from perfect. He struggled immensely. In fact most of the characters we love in the bible were characters! But I don't condone what my H has done and he will stand before God and I'm sure he's gonna have some 'splainin to do.
He does not live here. He visits here and I'll take that any day before having DS10 go visit the Sea Hag.
I am not sure about his drinking habits. I know he had mentioned he didn't drink as much but I do not have access to that information.
I don't feel at this point I will feel ashamed of any of my decisions and I am well aware of my worth and would not live a lifestyle of a PA. I know for a fact he did go to the Sea Hag and tell her that he wanted to come home and do the right thing and be here for his son around the time he said eh had the plan to come home, but believe he went into Withdrawal symptoms and it did not pan out. I am not in any way against PB at all and feel it has its place. I am not opposed to going into one if I feel led in my heart to do so.
I in no way shape or form intended for anyone who went and did strong PB's to feel I was insinuating that they are weak that's not how I am. What I was trying to convey was to stay in a PA as long as you can before doing so because coming out of a PB into PA again is not easy. None of the plans are easy but it makes it 10 times harder switching back. I think anyone who runs any of the plans at all are strong.
I make no defense of H's actions, he can only answer for those things he has done to the kids and I. He knows this, and told me a few days ago he knows his DD18 has lost respect for him. I hear the pain in his voice over it. Is he remorseful a bit yes. Is he completely broken not all the way. I am fully aware that H was the one responsible to protect and love us and not the Sea Hag and try to keep my dislike directed appropriately but as with any BS we do have natural dislike and rightfully so for the OW/OM but I don't hold her responsible so I hope that addresses what was mentioned earlier.
I do love my previous IM's and have nothing but immense respect and love for them. I have very grateful for there support and advice they have given me and times they have been there for me and if I have not adequately given my gratitude just know I appreciate you guys! I had mentioned to y'all or 1 of you I can't remember my concerns about using the IM's and what it was doing to H. His resentment was growing over the contact of strangers know all of his personal junk. With each communication he was getting worse. He is very private and has always been even before the A. I had to follow my gut and cease it while I tried to decide what I wanted to do. But I do def give you guys lots of love for what you do here on MB you 3 rock!
Ya know guys, again, there are no guarantees for any of us. No plan can actually guarantee absolute recovery. Yes it can help greatly but we have to remember we are dealing with Humans and human nature and that is very unpredictable. But I know I can always lean on a predictable God who cares for me 1st and my marriage 2nd. No matter the outcome I am going to make it-no not without some battle scars but its ok we all have em. I'm just happy to say I'm not afraid to make a mistake anymore. Ya know like when you 1st find out and then you literally feel paralyzed like you can't do this or that because its gonna be wrong or you'll push them closer or you'll let him cake eat or whatever it is there are sooooo many fears when you find out. But I don't care, I actually feel freer and stronger at this point. Free to not be afraid to do the wrong thing. That for me is priceless.
Kk gotta go...might be back later....Carry on luvs!!
T2L may as well move in with sea hag and share! At least it would save money.
Hey at least there housing situation will be resolved.
Haha *snort*
Okok I know lame joke.
LMAO LMAO funny you had me laughing! You mean like Cinderella or should we say Hagerella??LOLOLOLOL
T2L may as well move in with sea hag and share! At least it would save money.
Hey at least there housing situation will be resolved.
Haha *snort*
Okok I know lame joke.
LMAO LMAO funny you had me laughing! You mean like Cinderella or should we say Hagerella??LOLOLOLOL
*breathes in some healium and sings*
Cinderelli cinderelli...night and day it's cinderelli....
Disclaimer: this is not a referance to our womderful Cinderella on our board. We love you cinders!
That's nice and all T2L,
But you have evaded EVERY one of my questions, AGAIN!
Expecting a wayward to have EP's would be a selfish demand too?
Right?
Or NC?
Right?
PLEASE HELP, with all due respect, thats just silly!
Yeah... I was being silly... just trying to defuse the situation... it was getting heated... like that rude remark about boinking.... No KIND reason to put that visual in T2's mind...
I think a lot of what has been said by you and others is true... hovever... It's the tone of the advice that bothered me.
Everyone gets hurt if everyone doesn't think they are "right"... Everyone wants to be the one that solves the "case" the riddle first...
In the long run... we are all here to support each other through the worst of times.... This is like 911 of the heart...
Sometimes we just need to listen to a rant.. and calm each other down... sometimes to wave a red flag.. BUT... the final decision is up to US what we do... I don't care if I'm right....I just want to show that I care...and I understand how very hard this is...
I thanked God EVERY day for this place... I KNOW if I didn't find it...I would never have made it to the other side alive...
For me... just knowing others were going through it made me realize it wasn't MY shortcomings (is that a word?) But the bad choices BOTH my W and I made with the marriage God Blessed us with...and people helped me when they really could have been doing something else... they just cared.....
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{MB}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
A loving platonic hug to ALL the casulties of this horrible war we have found ourselves part of...... BSs....WSs....children.... mothers fathers... uncles... aunts.... Grandparents....friends.... and even the O... Nah... sorry I'm not quite there yet...LOL
May ALMIGHTY GOD heal even the smallest wounds we have and may we
forgive as he forgives us.....over and over and over....
God Bless... Frank
Expecting a wayward to have EP's would be a selfish demand too?
Right?
Or NC?
Right?
PLEASE HELP, with all due respect, thats just silly!
Yeah... I was being silly... just trying to defuse the situation... it was getting heated... like that rude remark about boinking.... No KIND reason to put that visual in T2's mind...
I think a lot of what has been said by you and others is true... hovever... It's the tone of the advice that bothered me.
Everyone gets hurt if everyone doesn't think they are "right"... Everyone wants to be the one that solves the "case" the riddle first...
In the long run... we are all here to support each other through the worst of times.... This is like 911 of the heart...
Sometimes we just need to listen to a rant.. and calm each other down... sometimes to wave a red flag.. BUT... the final decision is up to US what we do... I don't care if I'm right....I just want to show that I care...and I understand how very hard this is...
I thanked God EVERY day for this place... I KNOW if I didn't find it...I would never have made it to the other side alive...
For me... just knowing others were going through it made me realize it wasn't MY shortcomings (is that a word?) But the bad choices BOTH my W and I made with the marriage God Blessed us with...and people helped me when they really could have been doing something else... they just cared.....
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{MB}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
A loving platonic hug to ALL the casulties of this horrible war we have found ourselves part of...... BSs....WSs....children.... mothers fathers... uncles... aunts.... Grandparents....friends.... and even the O... Nah... sorry I'm not quite there yet...LOL
May ALMIGHTY GOD heal even the smallest wounds we have and may we
forgive as he forgives us.....over and over and over....
God Bless... Frank
Amen to that brother.
Yanno, all of this 2x4ing T2L has got me scratching my head. She isn't sticking to the MB plan, but that is her choice.
If a person HAD to follow MB exactly, then those of us who recovered without it are apparently doomed. It seems like my marriage will never be REALLY recovered and I'll suffer from PTSD indefinitely.
WRONG! I didn't know ANYTHING about MB when my DH was wayward and you guys knows that. I went to hell and back and have always said I wish I'd known about MB when I was going through it.
MB is GREAT and I recommend it often, but folks, sometimes God has a different plan.
I went to hell and back and have always said I wish I'd known about MB when I was going through it.
Yes, exactly.
Because HINDSIGHT gives you that WISDOM.
T2L, not too long ago you were talking about how you had done an AWESOME Plan A and that was why you felt confident in going into Plan B.
Now, all of a sudden you've decided your Plan A wasn't so hot and you need to do another one.
What's up with that?
It appears that your WH didn't like Plan B and bucked like a wild horse (or a 2 year old toddler), and you are again going into appeasement mode.
You can dress it up and call it "strength", "following your heart", or "being led in that direction", but it's still just appeasement.
MB is GREAT and I recommend it often, but folks, sometimes God has a different plan.
Or someone's getting yanked around on the emotional rollercoaster, and instead of recognizing it as such, disguises it as "God's leading".
Her WS is a typical wayward, still talking typical cake-eating crap, and she's still LISTENING to it thinking it actually MEANS something.
And I guess all of you who met WH and KNOW him and her so well are now all of a sudden thinking a wayard's babble actually means something, in spite of the fact that many of you have been here long enough to KNOW BETTER.
Yeah... I was being silly... just trying to defuse the situation... it was getting heated...
Now there's a line if I've ever heard one.
PH, maybe you should reread your posts. You were in now way attempting to diffuse anything. And some of us are not all in a tither because people don't AGREE with us, we are CONCERNED for T2L because she is talking TYPICAL BS babble, which is pretty typical of a BS that has been exposed to WS fog babble too long.
like that rude remark about boinking.... No KIND reason to put that visual in T2's mind...
Well, I did use another verb, but then I decided to tone it down a bit.
I used a graphic word for a point. Sometimes a BS is so fogged out, that they NEED some direct talk and not a bunch of warm fuzzies. It's even scarier when a fogged out BS elevates herself above the average BS, because then she starts justifying allowing her emotions to dictate her actions.
We ALL should know how dangerous that is.
You can dress it up and call it "strength", "following your heart", or "being led in that direction", but it's still just appeasement.
I think people are thinking "romantic heart" when T2L refers to following her heart. She is speaking of her "Godly heart". What IF God
IS telling her how to proceed? Who are we to question Him? And how do we know that He isn't?
Hi T2L,
You have to do what feels right in your heart and right with God. If that means following your heart then by all means, do so!
You are so right that the plans are not for everyone. I think the people who have the most success at saving their marriage are the ones who interact directly with the Harleys.
Not that here is bad...here is good, too, but mostly for personal recovery, it seems. That is a wonderful thing.
I can tell how different you are now by reading between the lines.
Good for you!!
Human animals are different from other animals in a major way because of our emotions...not that other animals don't have emotions but with us it's more intense. And we need to stay in touch with our "feelings." For many of us, intuition was what alerted us to affairs in the first place, squashing this part of ourselves is the wrong thing to do.
I am sorry to hear about you losing your home but you are strong and you will have a beautiful home no matter where you end up because truly: "Home is where the heart is."
Take care,
Charlotte
I went to hell and back and have always said I wish I'd known about MB when I was going through it.
Yes, exactly.
Because HINDSIGHT gives you that WISDOM.
Agreed... but you missed my point.
I didn't know about MB and my marriage STILL recovered completely. What about that?
I still gauge it on the actions not the words.....he has made no move to renew a lease with OW.....he has gradually started spending more and more time with T2L and family and LESS with OW. According to call logs he is calling her less and his calls to her are short...very short.....she whines over txt message about missing him....he replies with things like goodnight......he is giving all his money minus his living expenses to his family.
There is proof of her bad mouthing T2L and the kids....(which is a big LB) after he attempted to break it off with her.
These to me point to the affair weakening.
I went to hell and back and have always said I wish I'd known about MB when I was going through it.
Yes, exactly.
Because HINDSIGHT gives you that WISDOM.
Agreed... but you missed my point.
I didn't know about MB and my marriage STILL recovered completely. What about that?
And you missed my point.
You went through NECESSARY pain because you didn't KNOW.
T2L is allowing UNNECESSARY pain that WILL make recovery (if she gets there) even more challenging.
It's called directness.
Sometimes it cuts through the fog.
But it's so foggy on here, I don't think it's working.
Best wishes, T2L.
T2L's intermediaries seem to think she is making a mistake. What a shame only a select few are privy to the riveting new information about the OW. Why did T2L feel the need to take this off the board? Frankly, I very much trust posters like Pep and Neak.
Actually isn't princessmeggy one of the IM's?
PM?
This bickering needs to stop. This does not help the thread starter. Please keep your posts helpful and productive to the thread starter and stop badgering posters about their tone. If you have a concern about a poster, let the mods handle it.
Thank you, Revera
edited to say: we are unlocking this thread for the sake of the thread starter and have removed some of the posts that are against TOS. If there is any more disruption or editing of moderator edits, it will be locked and stay locked. Please be thoughtful of the thread starter before you disrupt a thread with TOS violations. That is not fair to others.
Actually isn't princessmeggy one of the IM's?
PM?
No I'm not.
T2L
I have watched you transition from a woman with a plan and an empowered woman to someone who has not only pushed aside the strength and aid of women with YEARS of experience AND marital recovery, and wrapped herself in the comfort of soothers who have months of recovery by comparison and some who admittedly LUCKED into that recovery.
Recovery is tough. It's tougher when you walk right into a false recovery and I've seen this before - I'm so hoping for a different outcome, but the script is too close for a deviation from it at this point. Hopefully your WH will humble himself and apologize to those who have volunteered to walk in the line of fire.
I am so very sad for what I am seeing.
Are you really SO VERY DESPERATE to have a cheater back in your life ON HIS TERMS?
This will likely be the last post I offer, because I don't know how to recover your marriage the way you are going about it. And I'm not the soother kind when I know a train wreck can be avoided and I know what has to happen to make that happen - Dr Harley's formula is inspired!!
I have been instructed by God before - but that insight always confirmed the wisdom and experience of those He had led into my path, not contradicted them. Months ago, you were inspired by Him to come to Marriage Builders and learn that your marriage could be recovered. There was a method and a Plan - an order - a sequence of steps to go through. Deviating from that plan can be perilous! Ask those who experienced false recoveries.
Three women who I believe to be great and inspired women, volunteered under that inspiration to step in to shield you from abuse. And all it would have taken is for you to let them - by not taking his texts and emails. Instead you subjected them to his abuse by taking his communication in Plan B.
Your claim that you are inspired by God means they must not be. There is the insult to them and it stings in your delivery!
Finally, when you were confronted about this weeks ago, you left the board to find your own way and find comfort from those who didn't challenge you on your departure from what you had learned.
Well there you have it. Your way. It's between you and God whether it's His way or not. But I believe Dr. Harley to be inspired.
But since your husband is not inspired by God or a greater cause, I fear your faith in YOUR HUSBAND'S plan will bring you great pain. He has not expressed ANY openness or honesty about YOUR WH's plan. Only that you are being taken care of. Do you really fear being on your own without his financial support that you won't stand up for your marriage GOD'S WAY? Without an interloper OW in it? God's way is humble, loving, faithful and honest. And your husband will have none of it.
Only when a man who has wronged his God and his wife the way your husband has wronged, becomes humble to the dust - to the dust - can you hope to recover any kind of marriage. Your way will not do this. WH's way will not do this.
You have given no inkling that your husband is humble and the alarm of your former I/M's tells me he has not apologized for his abuse of them.
You have your own kind of pride. The pride that says you think you know this man. You don't. He denigrates and abuses women - you excuse this by saying he's a private man - bull-pucky! A private man can be humble if he wants and needs to be- and that means he submits to whatever will bring him back to the light. And that includes the aid and intervention of strangers if it is necessary.
You're making it easy for him to NOT come back to the light.
I am so very very sad for you and your daughter and your son.
Neither of you deserve this. But you will choose it anyway. I pray for you and your family.
some who admittedly LUCKED into that recovery.
Kayla, why don't you just name names? If you're talking about me, luck had nothing to do with it. God did. And I'm not one of the ones who have only been recovered for a few months, but years. I've also been married for 31 years.
I AM one of the ones talking with T2L offline, but at her request. She didn't want to post again because of the very thing that has happened. She felt like she would be attacked and she has been. I'm sorry I was one of the ones who encouraged her to post an update.
I love those three who acted as IMs, but apparently, it wasn't working. In fact, it was making things worse. I have an idea why but I'm afraid if I give my opinion about that here, I'll be excommunicated. Regardless, they are all strong women that I respect and think of them very highly. Even you Kayla.
T2L, I'll still support you offline but I probably won't post on your thread anymore. It just gets my blood pressure up and that's not good... or worth it.
some who admittedly LUCKED into that recovery.
Kayla, why don't you just name names? If you're talking about me, luck had nothing to do with it. God did. And I'm not one of the ones who have only been recovered for a few months, but years. I've also been married for 31 years.
I AM one of the ones talking with T2L offline, but at her request. She didn't want to post again because of the very thing that has happened. She felt like she would be attacked and she has been. I'm sorry I was one of the ones who encouraged her to post an update.
I love those three who acted as IMs, but apparently, it wasn't working. In fact, it was making things worse. I have an idea why but I'm afraid if I give my opinion about that here, I'll be excommunicated. Regardless, they are all strong women that I respect and think of them very highly. Even you Kayla.
T2L, I'll still support you offline but I probably won't post on your thread anymore. It just gets my blood pressure up and that's not good... or worth it.
You are a 24K Gold woman with A stunning diamond of a heart. *HUGS*
Well I suspect that T2L isn't spending much time here anymore.
And that is a shame.
I truly beleive in the MB program -- and I wish she could be coached to follow it.
I am sad at the fog rolling around here.
You have to do what feels right in your heart and right with God. If that means following your heart then by all means, do so!
Can you even imagine if a WS said those words? We are CONSTANTLY telling WS to STOP following their "hearts" and to follow their HEADS. That the RIGHT ACTIONS will lead the heart back to the right place.
Cmon. FEELINGS will not lead you. Your HEART is the last thing you should trust...
Well I suspect that T2L isn't spending much time here anymore.
And that is a shame.
Actually I just got off the phone with her...she is watching a movie with her kids...and then they are getting Ice cream.
You have to do what feels right in your heart and right with God. If that means following your heart then by all means, do so!
I don't think I said this.
I wasn't attributing it to you princess.
Not sure why you thought that.
Just found it to be a good example of the foggy cheerleading I see on this thread.
We are locking for good this time.