So are you saying that my mention of writing the no contact letter to the OW does not properly give him the conditions?

It does say then we can discuss what it will take to secure the family. So are you saying the conditions should be listed in the PBL? I have asked for help in what to list as conditions.

AT the beginning right after discovery he did lash out really bad and dump it all on me and try to make me feel guilty, but I heard that that was normal for them to say that stuff so I ignored it even though it did hurt.

I do think it's worth mentioning my "real" H because in the few weeks leading up to my discovery I would look in his eyes and say where is my H can you tell him to come home and he would say this is your H and maybe you just don't like who I am. But it wasn't he was horribly mean and insulting of in especially in front of others and he had never done that.

Answers to your Questions:

1. Do you want to enable his A and selfish attitude?
NO Absolutely not!
2. Are you willing to settle for the crumbs of his attention?
NO Absolutely not!
3. Have you identified your personal and marital boundaries?
IDK can you explain??
4. Are you ready to implement those boundaries?
I think so I just need to identify them
5. Do you have a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience BEFORE you implement plan B?
I feel my mind is as clear as it's going to be for the situation. I've been doing nothing for 5 months so starting the Plan A 10 days ago has helped. I'm learning patience but my determination is higher than my patience, does that count?
6. Are you ready to handle his adverse reaction or lack of action to your plan B?
Truthfully I'm not sure I'm ready to handle it. I wish he would just pull is head out of his a** now, but like I said my determination is higher. I'm wondering if he is going to be horrible again like he was after discovery.
I cut him off at the discovery and If I went through it once I guess I can do it again. But I definitely don't want to but I am going to.

Yeah I'm fully aware of the bait, it is difficult. I didn't miss him like I miss him now. And I know I will have anger so that's what give me determination to go to Plan B.

I agree it should be normal for him to do these things. He's even doing more than what I had asked, a bunch of little home projects. It does make me wonder why. Guilt I guess?

But I have been giving him praise as Admiration was one of his top emotional needs so I'm doing that for my Plan A.

I have only been in Plan A for 10 days so I don't think I have completed the improvements, and I am assuming the improvements are in the way I care for H by meeting his emotional needs correct?
Again I'm not sure what my personal and marriage boundaries are, as silly as that sounds. What would be examples of that?

Final answer: I want my H back and not WS

Here is PBL again with some of the changes ya'll have suggested.
I have not listed marriage boundaries and actual conditions on the PBL. I have no clue, I am not sure what they should be to even list them.
When and if he decides to come home what conditions do you all suggest? I need everyone's input on that.
Anyways read again, I can't shorten it any, I've looked over it several times. I'll ask him to read the whole thing......



Dear Hubby Pooh,

This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.

I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so.

If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.

I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.

After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.

The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.

I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.

Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.

I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I want you in my life more than anything. I long for you and want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.

The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it). Then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.

I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.

I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live

Hi T2L,

I think you should change the "tense" here...to make it less confusing:



To:

I wanted to be close to you, even under these extremely painful circumstances.

And maybe add a sentence before the sentence that begins with: [...Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble ...] that reads: "I am requesting that you no longer contact me directly because it is too painful for me."

Just for clarification. It's kinda weak there.

Charlotte

Just added your suggestions thanks.

Boy this Plan A is easier and harder at the same time. Easier because I like meeting his emotional needs but harder because now I see him and talk to him and before I didn't. I guess Plan B will help me with that(outta sight outta mind).

He texted me last night after he left. Said I had a great time with the kids today....Uggg! I was here too ya know. Although, I am happy for the kids, especially my son. Then I sent him an email saying thanks for all the stuff he did being sure to add the admiration's. HE says no problem, the drive home is hard but I'm glad to see the kids!! Is he trying to clue me in that he's just around for the kids and has no interest otherwise??

I know-NO EXPECTATIONS. I wish there were guarantees but I know there are none. I guess it can't get any worse, I've already lost my marriage with him living with her.

Sorry venting...feeling down. I know I need to stop...

No expectations, no expectations, got that?

Thanks , I know, I keep reminding myself. NO EXPECTATIONS. Keep going, no expectations, focus, keep going, focus and NO EXPECTATIONS.

Well nothing new. I wanted to kinda stay quiet today with no contact for a few days from H but had to talk with him as there are fires near us so had to update him.

Our neighbors came over and said they might get things together just in case they evacuate during the night so we told H. Of course he said he'll keep his phone on. Oh Thanks, that will help with you an hour away. Yes that's sarcasm your hearing, sorry.

So DD17 is wondering if I should extend Plan A a few extra weeks. My Pastor had said maybe I should go just a bit longer, but I did explain the cake eating thing and he said oh I see. I have contemplated it but in all honesty don't know what to do. If I cut off at Halloween it will be 28 days of Plan A(and that's a Plan A with him living with the OW). I could extend a week or 2 but then that gets real close to Thanksgiving.

He said last week he was going to spend Thanksgiving with us or alone, which I told him made no sense and why wouldn't he spend it with his significant other to which he respond because its with you guys or alone. Why isn't he spending it with OW?

Why is he putting that on my head. Its like if I don't let him spend Thanksgiving with us then I have to feel bad he's alone.

I don't know. Who knows by the end of the month I may not want to extend. I sure hate the fact the holidays are coming, and did I mention my 19 year marriage anniversary is Dec 9th.

Lovely!

Orchid: You said you are writing an NC to the OW, not the WS. The WS & OPs are confused enough as it is. You can't assume they will 'get it'.


Orchid: List your conditions....example:
1. Safe
2. Care
3. Loyal
4. Faithful

I'd stay away from words like 'love'. Those words have no real meaning in an A. Not even to the family.


Orchid: He may or may not get mean but why wait for him to get to that level? Be proactive and take steps to protect you, your family and move forward.


Orchid: Good. How do you plan to accomplish that task?


Orchid: Good. How to you plan to make that happen?


Orchid: This one takes time. Each person has different boundaries. I will share mine. Initially the list was long. After a lot of soul searching I realized there was just a few show stoppers:

A. No OW in my life
B. No WS in my life.


Orchid: Proper identification is key. If you can read the book on Boundaries. Check it out at Borders or a book store. Can't recall the author's name but that title is now in a series and I think there is even one on Boundaries in M. The one I read was just entitled Boundaries (many years ago).


Orchid: A clear mind means you can be decisive in your decisions. A calm heart means you can implement those decisions without waivering. Patience allows you to take control of your plan and move based on your choices and NOT that of the A, WS or OP.


Orchid: Then you are not ready. Your mind and heart must be in sync. When it does sync up, the BS is empowered to move forward. You know you are better than the WS. This also could mean you are not ready for plan B. Remember plan B is to protect you and your family. The WS never likes plan B. Don't expect him to.


Orchid: Guilt, lots of guilt on his part. Do NOT let him give you that guilt. If he does stuff, say thanks and move forward. Do NOT lavish attention on him. He is doing what he ought t/b doing. If he does something above and beyond, then show your appreciation. The WS likes to get attention. Save that for your real H, NOT the WS.


Orchid: Meet the needs of your H NOT the WS.

[quote] Final answer: I want my H back and not WS

Orchid: Good. You deserve your H back, not the WS. No sane person deserves a WS in their life.

Take Care,
Orchid

I think you should proceed as already planned.

Sure, you might be able to squeeze another week or two out, but at what cost to yourself? At what cost to your Love Bank? You were so drained even to start with, it's amazing you've been able to do this well.

IMO, to extend beyond what you have planned leaves you wide open to rapid Love Bank drainage, increased risk of LB's, and a physical and emotional toll you can't afford if your Plan B ends up being shorter than average.

Thems is my .02

Hi Try,

I'm gonna speak my mind, I've sort of said this before but not quite as strongly as I'm about to. I may be wrong, and if I am I'm sure some of the experts will let you know. But unless an expert says otherwise, I think you've been far too focussed on the cake-eating thing from the very beginning.

Of course he's "cake-eating" as in he's still seeing the OW, because you are just now trying to change that! But we don't usually talk about "cake-eating" unless Plan A has been going on awhile - as in, he is continuing to *enjoy* the attentions of both the OW and the BW, with no signs of wavering. As in, he's happy with the BW doing Plan A, because he gets to enjoy her attention and he also gets to enjoy the OW. No signs of wavering.

IMHO your H IS wavering.

I've been tempted to mention the possibility of extending Plan A too. (And not just cus I wanna win the pool!)

Plan B is generally begun when the BW can no longer handle Plan A; when their love starts to die from all the giving with nothing in return, or when their emotions become too hard to handle, etc (like getting depressed).

IMHO ppl don't generally stop a Plan A that is *working*, as in, their love bank isn't so far in the red they are in danger of losing their love for the WS, and the WS seems to be wavering.

It isn't done as a punishment. (Not saying that's your intention, but you want to make sure it doesn't come across that way.) Think about what your PBL says: that you *must* go NC in order to preserve the love you have for him, that would otherwise start to die. If you aren't to that point yet, do you really want to say that?

I'm not sure he IS cake-eating. I'm not sure he's enjoying time with the OW.

Here's a thought, I just now thought of it and I'll throw it out there and see what you or others think. You've been doing the carrot of Plan A. How about some of the stick? Maybe that's what you need instead of PB. The stick of Plan A happens while you are in Plan A. It's stuff like, letting there be consequences to the affair... like exposure. Or letting the OW know WH went with y'all to Disneyland, and how much fun y'all had. (Leave hints; post family pics online; have some pics "accidentally" delivered to their shared apartment or emailed to an account she will see.)

Somewhere there's the "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" post. I really think you should stop worrying about cake-eating and Plan B for awhile, and try some of the stick of Plan A.

(I'm concerned that you may have dismissed good advice from your pastor who knows you in RL, all because of the phrase "cake-eating".)

Even if she still goes to PB on the 31st, that still gives her more than 2 weeks to work with. Look how far she's gotten in 10 days, and she's not even half-way there yet.

If she gets up to the 31st and just isn't ready, I'll back her all the way. But at the same time, my experience has been that the Love Bank drains with unexpected speed at the end, in most cases.

For me, I was left scrambling to implement it 2 days early, because I just couldn't do it even one more night. The letter was finished, (but not written out), and the framework was in place for 2 days from then, so I made it, but barely. My sister came over and helped me scramble around to have everything sparkly, and all his clothes clean so he could pack them better.

I would rather see someone end their great Plan A a little while before they need to, than push it as far down the wire as I did.

Also, if T2L had been newly engulfed by the A, I would be advising her to press on longer if possible. But with 5 months of pain, anger, and hurt, and the absence of a plan, she doesn't have as much to give as if she'd just found out. She needs to guard a measure of her own resources against recovery.

It is shocking how long even a wavering WS can waver, as long as their equilibrium is not upset. In nearly every case, they can last longer than the BS, which is why Plan B is nearly always necessary.

Yes, if in two weeks she's ready to go to PB, then I agree, by all means do so.

But if she's hesitating... if she's unsure whether she should go into PB... it seems most ppl are READY for PB when they do it.

In two weeks maybe she will be.

I don't think she should go into PB on a certain date just cus that's the date she set. It's good to be ready, cus you should definitely have a *plan*, and a last awesome parting experience.

What do you (Neak) think about adding some of the stick to Plan A? (I don't know if you saw my edit, which I put in as soon as I saw you'd posted while I was writing.)

T2L needs t/b emotionally ready for plan B. While she should implement it now (WS certainly has pushed her that way), T2L needs to be ready to handle the effects of plan B. She needs to be ready to handle the fallout of the WS, the anger, the blame and the frustration, the guilt that the WS may attempt to lay on her and her family. She needs t/b strong enough to follow through with her plan B outline and implement her boundaries so the WS will believe she means to move forward with her H and w/o the WS.

JMHO,
Orchid

Here is the carrot & stick link

.... remember - this C & S post is my interpretation of Harley's plan and is not from the horse's mouth

I wrote C & S when I became frustrated with poster after poster saying "I'm in plan A - I've been acting NICE" Plan A is not about "acting nice" .... plan A is a strategy .... so is Plan B.

Are there any legal loose ends that need your attention before Plan B?

Five months is a very long time for a woman to deal with this abuse. Dr Harley recommends 3-4 WEEKS of Plan A for a woman. And lets emphasize this is a woman who wrote this: "Oh God! Help, Help, Help and I crazy?!?!?!!?!?"

ahem.....

She is already worn down and continued contact is more likely to harm than help. She does need to be prepared, for sure, but, IMO, she needs to do this SOON.

T2L, can you bring me up to speed? Have you written your letter, designated an intermediary, separated your finances, set up a plan for visitation, prepared to get your locks changed? I will go read some more to see if I can find this out.

I think your timing is perfect to go into Plan B. Spending all his holidays alone will be a huge wake up call. It will be in your best interest, and your childrens, to treat him to that consequence.

I have done a lot of the stick part of the Plan. I did that upon discovery. I made sure people at his job knew, my whole family, his whole,family and church friends.

I did not allow him to blame me for becoming adulterous or allow him to manipulate me over the kids. I made no apologies for telling everyone or telling him the truth either.
So I think I have done some what the Stick part of Plan A.

I was under the understanding that while in Plan A I am to meet his emotional needs. He has a high need for admiration, domestic and conversation.

I was told that possibly I should not complement him on things he should be doing as my H, but if I don't how can I correctly do Plan A?

My Plan B letter is 90% done. Emotionally I'm half ready for Plan B.I am nervous for the fallout because I went through it before(I didn't have the book when I cut him off-I had to he was angry crazy) and I am dreading the angry accusing crap all over again. I know I can do it but going through it twice definitely is not on my list of fun things to do.

I know I probably shouldn't set a date as when to do it and more so go by when I'm feeling the love bank drain. I know for sure I cannot go much over the Halloween date by anything more than a week or two at most as this is difficult, plus as silly as this sounds I don't want to initiate Plan B right at the door of Thanksgiving.

This will not be a problem because if you are in Plan B you won't be talking to him so you cant hear his anger. Have a plan in place that prevents his getting through to you.


T2L, this letter is too long. He is an emotionally detached wayward and will not be interested in reading a long love letter. Sentimentalism will be a turn off. The point of this letter is convey your conditions of return and I had to really read it hard to even find that point. It needs to be CLEAR and CONSISE and the mushy part cut way back. The mushy parts can easily be condensed down to HALF to get the point across. And I would remove tactical details such as this: (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it).

And add something like this: "commit to a plan of recovery for our marriage."

Also: I would say something about visitation and asking him to set this up ahead of time and you will have the child MEET HIM IN THE DRIVE WAY.

Can you condense these paragraphs?


change to something clear and CONCISE and unmistakable:




Dear Hubby Pooh,

This is the hardest letter for me to write. I love you so much and want our marriage and family restored. I would love the chance to repair our relationship. I miss my real husband and all the laughter, terrible jokes, the most retarded movies, tickle fights, and mid-night moon walks in the kitchen, many hugs , kisses and of course tears and struggles at times.

I know that I have not been a perfect wife for you. I know I did things that put a wedge between us. I apologize to you for my part in creating an atmosphere that helped you make your affair with the Toad possible. It was my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs and I failed to do so.

If we both work on our marriage we can fix it. It can work a second time it already has. Remember when we broke up in 8th grade and you said it would never work a second time. But look it did! We got back together in 10th grade been together ever since and built a marriage of 18 ½ years on a second time.

I know that the painful situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that existed in our marriage. I want our marriage to be a source of happiness and a place of safety and refuge for the both of us and for our children.

After almost no contact for over 5 months these last 4 weeks have meant so much to me to be in contact with you, experiencing what my real husband was like and to hearing his voice and seeing him again -especially our trip to Disneyland. I want to be close to you even under this extremely painful circumstance. But now, it has become so excruciating for me.

The love I have in my heart for you is being damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. I am not doing this to hurt you or reject you but I want to protect my love for you. It has become to painful for me to see you and talk with you while you continue your relationship with the Toad.

I want to create a new life for us, but I can't do that until you end your relationship with the Toad once and for all. Until then I will avoid seeing you and talking to you. I am still willing and want to be your wife, but only when you can be exclusively my husband.

Our friends Fred and Wilma Rubble have agreed to help make arrangements for the kids and finances. If you need to communicate with me they will pass the information on to me. I will assume the finances will be the same as you have so wonderfully provided so far.

I ask that you please respect my decision to protect my heart this way. I still love you I just cannot see you under these circumstances. I want you in my life more than anything. I long for you and want you all to myself and I know you know the suffering I have endured because of this sharing.

The door to my heart and back to the family is open as soon as you are willing to permanently separate from the Toad with no contact with her ever again (I will help you write a letter of no contact to her and send it). Then we can talk about what it will take to secure the future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.

I want to be your best friend and be the one who is there when you need me and I want you as my best friend. I loved you when I married you and love you right now. I want you in my life more than anything. I long to be with you and for you to hold me again and say hey little lady.

I love you with all that I am, Your wife,
Trying2live

[/quote]

Letter 90% done, you can read it a few posts back.

Intermediary chosen, mutual friends from church.

Locks were changed the day his butt left(mostly because my 17 year old suddenly became scared and started blocking doorways and all chain locks and said she didn't want daddy to come home.)

Finances, are difficult. He is paying for everything as I have been a stay at home mom and wife for 19 years. We married straight out of high school. But if necessary I can file LS to cover that, but as of now he deposits every Friday even when I did not talk to him for the 5 months.

My children are a bit older 17 and 10. So the 17 year old will visit as she would like or not and the 10 year old is somewhat the same. But he is not visiting during the week so I can kinda get that ball rolling so its not so difficult when Plan B is going.