He doesn't want to go "home" to his house. It isn't "home". Your response of "hmmmmm" was absolutely terrific. It said more than words could have said! You said both "I'm thinking", but more "Gee dad, you need to think about what you are doing here - your life is screwed up, you are standing in the garage of what you call HOME, and you are having to ask permission to stay..."

and then you say this:

"the head honcho".

And his only response is to chuckle. Because he knows you have him there. And he laughs because he recognizes that he is standing in the garage and has no power left. He has to ask, and he is powerless in what he used to consider his own home, where he held the power. That he has put himself here, and he sees this - and laughs at himself, because he knows that YOU know. And laughs at the absurdity of his own behavior - that he is a schoolboy trying to cover his attempts to woo the girl, and everyone else knows it.



You ask about church and his life's rut. He sees himself as fallen, that he cannot be the pastor. Nope, he can't - and he does not want that for himself. And yes, the question for him is that if he returns he may very well see it as returning to that path, and he cannot do it. He can't, he is in crisis and cannot see himself as leading others. At least in the foreseeable future.

That message needs to be acknowledged to him. His self-talk about pastoring? He is a philosophical man, nothing more. People who are like this take on various roles, compare their own styles to others', and try to think through their own futures and think through their own life-paths. He is doing that, and does not see the pastor role as his. That's okay.

He struggles philosophically with the money end of churches. Not unusual - lots of people do, including many pastors. I've heard it plagues the pastoring skills of quite a few, and so not uncommon.

SB

T2L,

Thanks for good information!

It doesn't surprise me that he had his crisis of confidence on the eve of getting his degree. This is actually not uncommon, and not really limited to people getting a theology degree. People getting degrees lots of times may feel pigeonholed into one path. For example, somebody getting a teaching degree may feel like that funnels them into teaching, and they may have found out through getting the degree that it really wasn't for them. Only here they are, just a semester away from graduation, locked into it! They can't very well just stop, having spent all that money. People are depending on them, they have commitments, they have loans, they have invested four or five years, etc. It happens all the time. For someone in the ministry, there is the additional factor of the ethical and moral concepts - they especially feel obligations beyond someone in other fields might feel, and he probably felt the weight very strongly, if he was having doubts.

That is one thing to consider. He might benefit from talking to someone in the ministry, and exploring how he could use the courses he has to complete a degree in a related field, or to go ahead and finish his degree and work in a related field. Social work and counseling come to mind right off the top of my head, but the college could probably help him - they have likely done this before!

You have an interesting question on one of his comments, and I will answer it. He said, "I only love him or want him so I won't mess up my image." You said you didn't really understand what he meant.

What he was trying to tell you was that he didn't have confidence in why you loved him, especially after his betrayal of you. He thinks that maybe you "want to love him", but do not really love him, and that you are focused on a social appearance of loving him and continuing your marriage for the sake of maintaining your image in the community.

It is very important for you to somehow convey to him that you have not lost your depth of love for him despite his affair. I think that if you can show him that you are fully capable of forgiving his affair, and that you have not stopped loving him, he will return to your marriage. I say this because he has shown several attempts to get you to ask him to return to him - he does not want to ask you, he wants to be asked.

This is shown because he has said, "She always begs me for hugs" when that is not true, because he wants others to believe he is desireable and that you still want him. He wants to save face. He wants you to ask him - not the other way around - and he does it by hanging around late and putting you in the position of feeling like he is too tired to drive. If you feel sorry enough for him, or are too worried about him, you might ask him to stay, and that will make it possible for him to say truthfully, "SHE ASKED ME". He is pushing the envelope, so watch this and do not be fooled.

He has also asked this leading question: "How do you know I am still with OW?"

This is a tease. There are multiple analyses for this type of question, and he is hoping you are questioning this - which you ARE.

Here are the possibilities:

1. He is messing with you, and is still with OW.
2. He is no longer with OW and they are (CHOKE) "friends".
3. They have toned down relationship.
4. They are in the phase of flushing the affair into the netherworld, and the fantasy is over.
5. OW has given him the boot.
6. He has realized OW is no prize and he wants to come home, but hasn't the courage to admit it.

There are others, but you get the idea. Lots of possibilities. I sort of go with number 4, with a bit of 6 thrown in.

Plus, he knows he is an idiot, and cannot figure out how to put the pieces back together again. So, somehow, the message has to get to him that you DO love him, and that if the OW goes away, there is a path home.


My thoughts?

I don't know if it has been done before, but has anyone ever rewritten the Plan B letter? With more emphasis on the love, and then signing out with something like, "We can recover this marriage. As soon as your affair partner is out of your life foreever, come home and let's start over. We can have a new path together. Let's start with love, forgiveness, and dreams of a new future. Think of the possibilities."

Then, you need to go about as dark as anyone ever has. Because from where I sit, he gets too many fixes of you.


SB

Oooh I like the idea of sending an updated PBL, letting him know there really IS hope and a REAL open door back home.

You could use seeing him again recently as the opener.

Huh?

DS10 has a car? Huh? What?

I tried to figure this one out but no luck!

Charlotte

Schoolbus darling,

We IM's had been quietly discussing whether we should send him an oh-so-brief offer of a road map home.

Do you think the letter you envision needs to come directly from her, or do you think it would still work through us?

LMAO ok so switch a roo!

When DS10 can get into DD17's car to go to the visit...LOL

IMHO, I think if this is done, that it should be done by me to have the impact that it needs to. If he's going to let his guard and pride down to anyone it's more likely going to be to me than to anyone else. I saw just for a moment his pride drop by his response to me yesterday after I had told him its hard for me to see him. For him to even say anything after that mild rejection, and come back and say its never hard for him to see me, was the tiniest letting down of a wall. And it can be a little more personal, where if it comes from you guys it loses that personal touch, but again that's my opinion. I just don't want to waste a 1 time opportunity and have it not hit him they way its needed to if it comes from strangers who he may feel do not care for him the way i do, opinion again. We've been together since we were 14, so I can't imagine anyone closer to him or knows him better than I do. Also SB's version of request says, "come home" he won't do it for y'all but he may do it for me and the kids.

Okay, thanks!! I feel better now. I'm not going crazy after all!!



Or am I?

:crosseyedcrazy:

I forget where I stole this from, I have so much stuff filed away from the early, crazy, download anything that might be helpful days. If anyone recognises it, could they please ad the the name.

And maybe this?

"and I suspect that you think my expectations include for you to resume where you left off in the ministry. That is not the case. As your wife, and in obedience to God, I will respect whatever decision you make concerning that because our first and most important ministry is to each other and our family. I KNOW and I hope you realize that God has never stopped loving you and is willing to meet you where you are."

Like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party in Alice in Wonderland-- Cake eaters LOVE to throw crumbs.

(He- remember- in the Disney cartoon everyone at the party screaming for the "Must-ARD?")

That, is what I believe WS is doing- getting a T2L "fix" - (He has gotta keep throwing those crumbs... or she will STARVE. He KNOWS T2L lives and breathes because of him.) Hooooey.

T2L- You deserve so much more. That is the thought that cme into my head why all this "hugging" and "love to see you" sh*& was going on. I would have looked him COLD in the eye, and said, without a flinch "Do you seriously think this what I want or deserve?"

The attitude change has to be inside your head.

I think you did a good job-- but there are "arrows" you chould have shot (not real arrows here, people.) that could have gotten your new attitude over to him.

I mean, if you could look at this situation from a few paces back- like you were observing a friend. I get kind of angry at this treatment. You have asked repeatedly for a commitment- a simple thing for a spouse to request.

and cake eater wants to give you crumbs.

Ok :MrEEk: vent warning.. :MrEEk:.vent warning.. :MrEEk:.vent warning..

If he really respected you, after all this time. Would he do this? Would he want his daughter to settle for this type of relationship?

Forget "what does he mean by this?...what does he really mean by that?" He needs to step up to the plate. He really MUST think you will stay in this HOLDING pattern forever. I see now what you mean.

Or at least respect you enough to stop sneaking into your life through a garage, forchissakes, ...

whew...(pant..pant)

I am so glad you have the patience for this. I give you credit T2L. I would have lost my mind by now (that's why I love the Mad Hatter's Tea Party so much!)

If you think a new PB letter will help, if you saw a chink in the scales, I think it should come from T2L

But for pity's sakes, don't beg or sound desperate. I like the aforementioned letters. Simple- to the point.

Do you guys think it is a little early?

He really responded to the DIFFERENT you. The one who respects herself enough to have a life without him. You have changed your attitude here, dear-- I can read it. It is hitting a chorus with him. Don't cave too quick.

I don't know how to deliver this message to your wayward husband.

But Try - Here are the signs YOU need to look for that he is ready to recover.

1. He must lay down his spiritual rebellion against God. You and your children need a spiritual leader in your home, not a spiritual cripple. He MUST be ready to let God work on his heart, or he has not reached his bottom yet where he is exhausted and ready to seek out God.

2. He must stop rebelling at your protective boundaries. The minute he starts seeking out your intermediaries for direction on how to win you back is the signal that HE GETS IT!

3. Fruits of repentance include scheduling a lie-detector test, and asking Pep and crew to prepare the questions; talking with an attorney about a post-nup agreement where he surrenders his financial fate completely if he ever cheats again or if you are not completely convinced of his repentance NOW. He becomes a God-fearing man instead of the spiritually defiant mess he's become.

I don't know if this can be conveyed in a 2nd Plan B letter or not.

But he needs to get a message this rebellious behavior is not endearing.

Here's a brief study on rebellion in the Old Testament:

Do you recognize the wayward husband?

Deut. 31: 27
27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?


Josh. 22: 22
22 The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)


1 Sam. 15: 23
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king. (your daughter's reference to the boss is fitting on this one)


Ezra 4: 19
19 And I commanded, and search hath been made, and it is found that this city of old time hath made insurrection against kings, and that rebellion and sedition have been made therein.


Neh. 9: 17
17 And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to danger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.


Job 34: 37
37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.


Prov. 17: 11
11 An evil man seeketh only rebellion: therefore a cruel messenger shall be sent against him. (intermediaries, anyone?)


Jer. 28: 16
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will cast thee from off the face of the earth: this year thou shalt die, because thou hast taught rebellion against the Lord.


Jer. 29: 32
32 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will punish Shemaiah the Nehelamite, and his seed: he shall not have a man to dwell among this people; neither shall he behold the good that I will do for my people, saith the Lord; because he hath taught rebellion against the Lord.


Try - your husband is teaching rebellion against the Lord, by word and example - him talking with your daughter about his wayward ministry - how he'd run the church is teaching rebellion against God. A study of Malachi will demonstrate how the Lord expects a full tithe - and your husband is teaching contrary to that law. And in doing so, if he were in charge of the ministry would deprive those in his congregation the blessings of paying a full tithe. That is, unless he found a church where the structure is entirely a volunteer ministry... Congregation tithes do not go to pay ministers at all.

Good morning all!

First off thanks everyone for popping on and giving me feedback I sure appreciate it! No matter the perspective I like hearing what others have to say. I weigh things and balance them and go with what I feel God is saying to me.

I do believe my H is in fog in all areas of his life including his views on his call, ministry and destiny in Christ. Yes he did tell his daughter that mess about the tithe but so y'all know we had been tithers for almost 13 years. I view his talks about the ministry and himself are not a bad thing necessarily. This shows me alot.

I do know that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance and God will not repent of what He predestined any of us to do. Perfect example is Paul or any one of the less than perfect characters in the bible. So its okay for my H to see his self that way. If God can get him to still see that in spite of falling pretty far, then God can surely straighten out his views of the tithe. And truly this is the perspective he comes from. We had many discussions on this. My H is an entrepreneur at heart, he always wanted to have his own income so he would never have to take money from the people. That was his issue. He wanted to preach for free so he could be free to say exactly what was on his heart. But then he had a great deal of fear over what he was called to do. He has even kinda made mention that he may have done this to avoid it. I have to try and remember exactly what he said....gimme a bit I may remember.

As far as coming across a little stronger I understand your view and its accurate that I don't deserve that. But I understand also the power of my feminine nature, as did Ester. I know how to use it with strength with out losing that ever so attractive nature and essence of a woman. My H is turned off by overly strong or masculine natures, as are most men. Most men when approached in a masculine way will put up their boxing gloves. I feel God made them that way, and when we approach men as men then we get treated as men. Does make sense? I know I do not need to be a door mat, but I do know how to approach my H and when he will listen.

{{{{Hugs}}}

Well, you have done an excellent Plan A, and a very good Plan B, and you have the best IMs. To me, it looks like hubby is trying to find a way back.

If I were you, I would scrape up the money for one call to the Harleys, and get expert guidance. I always thought it was too much money. Came to find out that divorce costs 1000 times what one call would have.

We're gonna wait just a bit and watch to see what last weekend's effect is. He did call last night to talk to DS10 and did the normal is mom there? Where is she call. LOLOLOL This is normal now and it wasn't several months ago. I see this as a good sign.

I will not beg and told him so at the start. Pre-SAA 1 month in to this mess I had kinda cut him off, about 90%. He came by to visit. He asked me during the visit, why I am not begging him back if I wanted the marriage so bad. I pointed to my son outside and said you want the mother of that boy to beg, I said never. I did that remember after you told me and then for the 2 weeks you were here you told me why you should not be here so I will not beg you. So he knows I will not beg.

I really like what Schoolbus sugguest and even a WHOLE lot to what Pep said about H not being secure. He wasn't, I knew it, and so I always told him how great of a man he was, but it didn't help. I think his self esteem was much much lower than I had realized. A 2nd PBL is obviously not exactly per SAA but i feel there may be a leading of God to go this route(I pray for my IM's (and y'all) that God would give wisdom and insight on things to do and I know he will quicken them and give them the things I need to know and understand and may not be able to because I am too close to the situation.)

Hello lovely Lil B! I missed you!!!

I think when I get some tax money I may do that. I think he wants back to. He has mentioned to others in the past(last summer), that he did not think he could fix it or that it would never be the same-Schoolbus point this out too.

B you should come here when Lildoggie comes to the states next month! I think your only abt 3 hours away....I know i guess it is kinda far LOL

Oh, I've been reading all along, but think you are getting excellent advice.

I'm hoping to be in Seattle at the stair climbing when Lil and Flick are there.

I live in Oceanside, which is just south of you, but you know how hard it is to get everyone together and still do what you want to do. I figure that since they will be at the stair climbing anyway, I'll just be there too.

I think he is, too.

I think it's his dayumed pride thingy that is the only roadblock right now.