Ears

We are went to church this afternoon. The children enjoyed it!! Anyway, my H said he had a couple of things to say to me. He said that he is going to be the man that he needs to be and the man I want. He does not know how long this will take but he is determined. He said his withholding affection was because he desperately wants to be close to me and even holding hands can be painful to him. He wants so much more. Above all he wants me to lean on him. To give up being so strong and independent and lean on him. He will be there for me and will not let me down. I thanked him for this, and for his love and hope. I didn't know what else to say. Why is it that in such moments I can be devoid of feeling anything?



This will be good when the marriage when the marriage goes back to this state.

Yes, we always talk on the phone and generally even when he's in the office locally. Talking on the phone is fine. We've done it a lot over the years. I'm happy when he connects with the children, mostly.

Okay, Nowis, let me share with you my filter. I hear you saying that you are mad at yourself for not taking his word as fact right away. That you are mad at yourself for needing a little time and see a little movement first. That you may have some fear that he says this, and then turns on you again tomorrow, once oyu open up to him. Did I get that right? Did I get it all?

I think that when your H follows through, that it will be obvious to you.

My H is my gift, right?



This is SOO much easier said than done. How do I do this? My first idea is to suspend all judgements, preconceptions about him. Abandon any expectations? Admit I don't know and try not to work on anything. Discontinue looking for solutions and don't make any plans.



Yes, I have been trying to really 'see' him. Not look at him in a negative way and think about what I don't have. I love my children - they are simply brilliant. I admire them and what's more, I admire them because they are like my H too.



I'm going to really apply myself and do this. I really want to move on from here. I don't want to lose what I have. I'm going to get it one day, you'll see.

Thanks. You, BCB and Ears do not realize how much you've affected my life. I don't know where I would be today if I hadn't found this forum. I feel lucky and ridiculous all at the same time?!

Ears

Yes, something like this. I'm happy to hear him say these things but I'll wait until I see movement in that direction. In addition it's almost as if I am unaffected emotionally even though I know he is absolutely sincere and truthful. Maybe it's years of deferred hope or good intention fatigue?!? Does that sound odd? Although it's probably just me, the way I react. I can be very detached from normal reactions.



I absolutely agree.

Oh my Oh my Oh my. I get a lump in my throat to read these words. So what more can a man say to his wife to reassure, confirm, his love and devotion. If you have not already done so fall on your knees and thank God for the gift of a husband like what you have. Oh my Oh my Oh my. Nowis the time to be thankful. He is going to stand by you while you work on you. That is what you need to do first. Before you can work on your marriage.

I know how tough it can be to get in touch with your emotions. But your husband has given you the platform in which to start. Trust is such a big issue. You bottle up for protection. You bottle up from an underlying fear. You bottle up because you do not want to be hurt.

Did you make any vows while you were younger Nowis? Like did you hear yourself saying to yourself that "this will never happen to me" or whatever after watching or listening to your Mom.

I am so impressed with your husband Nowis. From my perspective I have to violently agree with JL that your husband is a REAL MAN. Please shake his hand for me. I would be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with a MAN of his character. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FORTUNATE YOU ARE?????? This guy could not be any clearer on how much he loves you. Are you going to accept this love? Or are you going to freeze him out while you wait for a bolt of inspiration to hit you?

JL has hit the nail on the head. Perception, Perception, Perception!!! What is it you are waiting/ looking for? This guy is willing to crawl over broken glass for you. He is willing to listen, wait, change, whatever it takes. That is what he told you. He has got to be madly in love with you. I hope you go back and read those posts JL wrote about your husband. Man this guy is one fine MAN.


OK so what are you waiting for? He is telling you to trust him. No matter what you can trust him. I think this is going to be really tough for you because you learned early on not to trust. We learned the world can be a dangerous, scary place, and the only way to not be hurt is to be "self reliant" "protect yourself" don't need anybody or anything. Your next step is going to involve risk. You are going to have to risk trusting him, confiding in him, being totally honest, not holding back. What are you holding on to? Would you be more comfortable with someone who would be unreliable, someone who would leave you, someone you could not trust, because that is more familiar with what you grew up with?



If you are waiting for the sparks to fly, maybe you need to change your perspective. What does love look like to you? What would have to take place for you to feel loved? I do not mean this as criticism, I am talking from my own painful experience, and that is sometimes when we put up the shields to protect ourselves we prevent ourselves from feeling the emotions both good and bad. I think you have to look at getting your protective layer down so you can feel. You are going to need to feel the pain of vulnerability, the fear, perhaps you have things you need to grieve. But no matter what happens you KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt this guy is standing by you. WOW.

For your husbands sake and for the sake of your marriage you gotta throw this guy a bone. What can you do to show him how much you love and appreciate him? What are you going to do to fill your 50% of the relationship. What are you planning on working on to meet his needs? He sounds patient but he still has needs.

Ears has talked about a soft place to fall. Well it sounds like you have it if you need it. Sounds like you got a great Christmas gift.

You need to be free Nowis, free from the past, free from fear, free from guilt, free from anxiety, free from depression, free from expectations. You can be free Nowis.

Congratulation Nowis. You are making great progress. Let me know how you do in letting down the shields. You are gonna need help.

God Bless you and your family.

Nowis, I hear you again criticizing yourself. Look at BCB's reaction. Very different than how you felt. We can see the positives of bcb's rection. Doesn't make you bad or wrong if you don't feel that yet today. All that patice for your H, what a gift. How about some for you, too?

They say here on the board that men are all about the grand gestures, not the day-to-day caring. I totally understand how grand gestures are PAINFUL, not reasurring, if they aren't accompanied by a day to day care and consideration. I'm glad that you two connect on the phone.

I hear a lot of LBs. This I think is where the pain comes from, the inconsistency. Nowis, love doesn't have to hurt. Let him know when he's hurting you, suggest to him another way to express his pain, anger, frustration, other than isolating from you. Like bcb syas, he IS a good man, just has some old skills left.

It takes a lot of trust to let him know when he's hitting a hot spot for you. When you have no control over whether he will use that knowledge to be more caring or more hurtful. We here do think that you have good man, nowis. What about giving him the chance to show you his intentions in this way? This is part of how MB makes a so-so marriage a great marriage. Or clears up the denial about a bad marriage. Love doesn't hurt.

Bcb gave some ideas about some grand gestures that may touch your H. What do you think? Acting on love, even when you're not feeling it yet? Love as an action?

Putting trust and faith in him is also a grand gesture. Let him know if you are doing this, so he wil be concious and support you and not hurt you. Tell him if you need encouragement from him.

My H wants the floor mopped daily. We have a weekly housekeeper, and once a week is fine by me. I do it more often for him, because I want him to feel happy. I let go of the response. He can say nothing, in which case I felt I wasted my time. SO I told him that I want to hear, "It looks great!" Or I have no wish to continue a gesture that doesn't do anything for me. Then I let go of his response. Either he really does like it, and it's worth the extra effort. Or it doesn't impact him, good to know, I can direct my love for him elsewhere. Jut a small example.

Hey earsopen
Thanks for the insight. You sure showed me the difference in perception, can I say how a guy can look at things. I know your post was for Nowis but what you said has helped me. Man I have to ramp up the ol awareness scale here.

You are right as a male I do look for the grand gestures. I need to be more aware of the day to day things that reinforce the intent of the grand gesture.

Good job

Thanks bcb, glad it helped

Happy New Year to you all. Got back this evening. Just reading and sharing my thoughts.



I have been thinking about this a lot.

We just spent a week in the snow in BC and I went through every gambit of emotion again, it seems. We didn't talk about the marriage at all but enjoyed the children, the snow and skiing. He was happy to be with me and said he was happier than this time last year. I came to the conclusion that I am not capable of the same love that he has shown me. It's like you said above JL - he seems to be able to handle a one sided love. I think the choice is up to me to accept things as they are and not look for anymore. Stop looking to the marriage to fill me deep inner needs - it just won't. I know that for sure. If I accept things then the turmoil stops. No more expectations which brings about a lot of dissatisfaction. I have to fulfill myself on other levels. I've been practicing gratitude a lot this week.

JL, BCB, Ears and others.

I have decided I have to accept the disconnect. I have to accept that I have to meet my own needs. I, apparently, make him happy. He could just do with more SF. I have to make me happy. He doesn't really know what makes me happy and after 23 years I can't explain any more.

I am lonely and you guys said that I should need him and show him that. I tell him how I feel and in the next breath give him legitimate reasons why he doesn't have to meet my needs.

I am circling and circling. The same circle. I woke up but it was better that I stayed asleep. I yearn for more but it's not realistic.

I will meet my own needs instead although it makes me seem independent I don't know how else to be. He likes my independence - admires it. I don't know a middle ground.

So, that's what I'm thinking.

Perhaps it's time for me to check out and get on with this instead of going around and around. Go back to my life better armed with all the knowledge you guys have given me. It's not drastic changes but I have more tools I think. Stop talking.

I cannot thank you enough for all the time you have taken with me - I really can't. Thanks for caring about me, my H and our marriage.

Nowis, I've got to respect that you have the discernment to know what you want to do. I'll be honest, I don't like to hear that you are giving up for a stagnant marriage. I don't see those marriages as sustainable, having walked in those shoes before. I don't think there are only two choices: stay and be miserable or go and find happiness. I think that if you work to find happiness where you are, that your marriage will change.

As a small example, you mentioned that your H didn't know what you wanted for a date night. I think that if you planned some date nights, sitter and all if your kids are that age, and then wnet whether or not your H decided to go with you, that he'd get a clear idea of what date night means to you. My H didn't always show up, even when I got a sitter. But I needed to do that to get healthy again. To see that my getting better doesn't rely in my H's actions or inactions. Just a small example.

Maybe he will get mad more, LB you more. The Boundaries in marriage book is really good about that, showing you how to not be a part of that anymore. Your time with your H should be the most enjoyable of the week. I get it that he says he's not willing to come out of his comfort zone. That he has this one way to show love, the FS, and has decided that you need to be happy with that alone. Doesn't make it true for you. Maybe you do need to spend time with a man and have affection to feel love for him. Doesn't make you bad or wrong.

But I understand, that shaking things up unleashes his resentment towards you, and you don't want any more of that. Can't blame you. I trust your judgement, and encourage you to keep coming back.

Forget trying to love him. Just leave him and find a man whom you have sexual "chemistry" with. Of course that chemistry will go away after 6 months so you will then have to leave THAT man and start over with ANOTHER man....but who cares.

Quit torturing each other, admit you never loved him and dont love him now,,,,,and be done with the marriage.

Nowis,

While there is a part of me that agrees with Stella's position, I think she is trying to get you to look at thinks differently.

Forgive me but I seem to have forgotten what you need. could you please list for me what a "perfect" husband would provide you? I am very serious here.

Please list what your needs are and how a perfect husband would meet them.


As I read all of this, I am struck with two thoughts and I would like to discuss the with you. One is that you are going to play the martyr and victim and make a great sacrifice for this marriage by "doing what for your H?" I haven't figured out what he is getting out of this, since he is the one GIVING you love. Perhaps the honor and pleasure of being married to you.

The second thought is that you only seem to see things in "binary" ways. Either I am completely happy, or I am miserable. Either he is a really great H or he is not a good H. Either I am deeply in love and involved with him like I was the OM, or I am in a failed marriage.

I will remind you of something here. You are making disrespectful judgements of your H. Further, since you are making decisions of what you are going to sacrifice for him, you need to POJA these decisions with your H. If you do not, and it is not a win-win, all this will do is create resentment with in you. And there is the old saying
In this case it seems to me you are indeed doing this very thing. You are going to take the poison and hope that your H passes on soon, so that you can then find the right man for you. Meanwhile you are poisoning the marriage and yourself.

I will bet you dollars to donuts, that your H will not want to remain married to you if he knows you are not happy with him and the marriage. I will bet you another dollar that he will not find SF very satisfying if he knows you do not.

It is time to you to start so see the world in its full color, not just the black and white you seem to see it in.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on my comments.

God Bless,

JL

Wow you guys

My H and I talked about stuff. It seems that we are not telling each other how we truly feel and think about things. We slip so easily into the old patterns and assume things about one another. Therefore we both get frustrated and we both treat each other the same way we have always done. Change seems difficult to come by, that's all. I am tired and sad that I lose hope in it all. I'm not looking to get rid of my H! Could have done that a long time ago! Am looking for a change in my marriage. It is a lot of work trying to get on the same wavelength.

My H has taken the week off and we are spending it together. We have something planned for each day - light and fun. It feels very weird but nice. We are taking the time to add to each other as opposed to take away.

I will address your points later if I can. Some of them were rather 'sharp' but I get what you're trying to say. I have frustration and feelings and longings.

How about setting up one hour each week where you sit down together and just discuss issues? Promise to be fair to each other and to try to understand the other person without having to defend yourself?

Oh we are a prickly bunch Nowis.

Very prickly!

I hope you two enjoy this week.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I cannot think of why "pricklyPear" or just the first part of that is censored. I guess I could say "thorny". I hope you get the idea Nowis.

Hi JL,

I am trying to undersatnd your advice to Nowis. There has been a lot over time that I didn't understand that you said that was VERY helpful to me when I needed it later. But I think I may be missing something important here so I'm asking if you would please help me to understand.

From how I see it, her H's love bank is full because she his loving him in *action*, doing many things every day for him. Her love bank for her H is empty because though he does many nice things every day, too, the difference is that he does them for other people, just not any for Nowis. Because he says it falls outside his comfort zone. I think that if he did some nice things specifically for Nowis, then her love bank would refill, too.

Her top EN is affection, just like his is. That sounds like the easiest one to fill, especially because it's stuff that he likes doing. He could give her a kiss when they wake up, a kiss and a hug when he leaves for work, a call during the day to say "thanks for making me such a nice lunch," a kiss and a hug when he gets home from work, a compliment about the nice dinner she fixes, and a kiss and a hug before bed. That takes, what, 5-10 minutes a day?

But I hear you say that he loves her, and she isn't loving him. Isn't love an *action*? Isn't she *acting* on her choice to love her H in many ways daily, even though she's not *feeling* it?

Like the parable about the man with two sons. He asks them to help him in the field. The first one says, "No, dad, can't help today." But on the way out, he decides to go work the fields all day after all. The second som say, "Of course, Dad, I'll work the fields." But then he goes out. Which one loves his dad?

Ears,

Excellent question. Perhaps I am wrong or working with bad data here, but I don't see the issue as being how you laid it out. I don't see her H's love bank as full, as he knows and has known for years that she doesn't really "love" him. I recall that she came here stating he was not "manly" enough for her, that he did not exhibit the traits that her OM did which she was "in-love" with.

Further, I have (perhaps mistakenly) thought that the disconnect was that she did not feel "loving" toward her H although she "liked" him OK. I will agree that her love bank is not full, but I don't get the impression it is for lack of effort on her H's part. Now perhaps his effort is misdirected, not an uncommon occurance, but it seems to me that somehow her H does not make her happy no matter what he tries.

I hope that Nowis will come along and straigthen me out on this. But, my assumption is that she does a lot of independent behavior because she really doesn't care that much for her H. She had the affair because she found the OM, more "manly" than her H.

I realize he is not perfect, but frankly I have yet to get Nowis to really say what she needs from her H, other than whatever he is providing is not enough.

I understand your confusion, you and I are looking at this very differently. Not a problem, we just need Nowis to set us straight.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

JL, thanks for clarifying. I rmember that she made some statements when she first got here, I took that as she didn't really mean that, she was just saying that to not feel so bad about her lack of participation in SF. When her actions changed, she no longer said these things, which I would expect.

I don't remember where her H was making effort and she didn't want him to, like State of Withdrawal. Nor did she say that her H wasn't making effort, the way that I'd assumed, perhaps mistakenly. I thought she would have described this if he did, as she tends to be really hard on herself, and would use this as a 2x4 to bash herself with. Look what he's doing in the present, and I still don't feel happy with him! But I may have been misteken about that.


Wow, this is a big missing piece. I think that she said that she wanted affection, and a date night without the kids. But I may be mistaken here. I think they also had a round of describing what ENs they want met. Nowis, how did that go? Did you ever get to the "how" of it? Would you mind clarifying it for us here?

Nowis, I was reading through some articles, and thought that you may find this very relevant? I know there are a lot of differences in the situations, but I still found the advice very relevant and helpful in understanding my situation, and I thought you might give you insight into yours, too.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5066_qa.html