Eight times? That must be some kind of record. I often wonder if she pushed H2 away. WW is very controlling. I don't know her other husbands very well, but with what little interaction I've had with them, they seem like fairly decent people. They're both hard working men who are in their childrens' lives. Both have re-married and have had a kid in their new marriages. Both ex-H's got re-married about a year after my wife and I were married.

WW admits that she never loved H1. She said that she was foolish to think that she could learn to love him just because they had a child together. She knows it's not a good reason for leaving him and knows it was wrong.

She says she never would have left H2. She wanted to be with him forever and loved him very much.

I guess I'm somewhere in between those. She liked a lot of things about me--we were of the same faith, we both agreed that she should be a SAHM, we're both frugal, same political stances, blah blah. I guess I looked good on paper and sounded good on the phone, but when we married after knowing each other for only 2.5 months and only dated 3 or 4 times since I lived in another city, she got to know the in-person me which I guess she didn't like.

She professed her undying love for me a lot when we were early in our relationship. Now she says she never loved me of course. I did doubt how someone could be so in love so quickly and be so sure about getting married in such little time, but I felt that two people who truly rely on God can make a marriage work.

We read scriptures together and prayed together alot in the beginning but one day she refused to do those things with me any more because she didn't feel close enough to me to do those things with me anymore. I was shocked when she told me that and felt that we should do those things BECAUSE we wanted to try to feel close to each other throughout our marriage.

It was downhill from there. She refused to go to counseling with me and didn't care if our relationship worked out or not. I see now that she "fell out of love" with me because of my LB's and not meeting her ENs but at the time, I didn't know what to do so I swept the problems under the rug for a future date when my wife would feel ready to work on things with me. That day never came and here we are.

I know I'm not the only one to blame. She should have continued to turn to God for help with our relationship and seeked counseling with me but she doesn't believe in counseling. She believes two people should work things out together without anyone else's help.

And she really did talk her heart out and try to resolve our differences. She tried so hard to do it her way and I felt that she was trying as hard as she could to explain things to me and try to understand me too, but it always felt like we were speaking two different languages and couldn't make any progress!! I realized that it just wasn't working her way and that's why I suggested counseling so maybe the counselor could interpret our different languages to each other.. it was the only thing I could think of in desperation but she wouldn't do it.

I suppose I could have gone to counseling on my own but I just felt so down about it and that it would be a waste of time for me to go on my own. Anyway, I'm glad I've learned about ENs and LBs because going forward, I can see how viewing relationships in this paradigm and acting accordingly can really help build marriages!

Do everything you can to secure custody FIRST.

THEN, try working on your M if you can.

Your chances of saving your M with this woman are slim, so priority number 1 should be custody. Once you have secured as favorable custody arrangement as possible, then incorporate the Harleys' plan.

I would file when your lawyer tells you the best time to file is. If you can file something that will keep the child in your home for 60 days, I would do it. Let your WW face the consequences of her actions.

Erich, it's pretty clear your wife has a personality disorder. She's been married 3 times, arrested a couple times for DV, and she commits adultery a lot. Please read up on NPd and BPD. The insistence on sleeping apart and the sex drying up are also big clues.
I really don't think you ever stood a chance with this woman. No one else would, either.

Alright Zelmo, I'll look into BPD since you seem so sure about this!! How do you know so much about BPD and NPD? I'll let you know what I find out. Thanks,

E

Erichh, I'd never heard of personality disorders until I found out about mu XW's affair and talked to a therapist, as well as a lawschool classmate who practiced family law and used to be a social worker.
I began describing incidents with my X, things like her bouncing checks, lying, raging and insisting that our kids sleep with us. I related stories about the emasculating attacks she made and being doused repeatedly with cold water when I'd shower. Both the therapist and my lawschool firend told me to start looking at BPD as a possible explanation.
There is a very good website , www.bpfamily.com that will give you info.
When one is involved with a disordred person, it is difficult to see it. One gets used to the bizarro world that is their reality and doubts oneself.
You may not see just how abberant your wife's past is. A history of three marriages by age thirty, combined with convictions for assault and a history of infidelity is several standard deviations from a normal past. All of these things, along with the weird sleeping arrangements and lack of a sex life are classic red flags for a personality disorder.

Based on what I've just read about BPD, my WW seems to exhibit a lot of the symptoms. I'd say there is a very good chance that she has BPD. But what does this mean for me? So far, it just puts a possibly name to her behavior. I'll study some more about BPD and how it effects relationships and see if this helps my understanding of my wife and gives me any incites as to what can be done.

Zelmo, how did knowing that your wife likely had BPD help you if at all?

Thanks

Erichh, it helped in a couple of ways. First, most folks living with a disordered person for any length of time have had their reality distorted insidiously over time such that one's bearing are all messed up. Look at how you accepted the sleeping arrangements. I bet, at some point, you stopped seeing just how bizzare they were and accepted it. I bet the same is true in other areas where your sense of normalcy was eroded over time by exposure to BPD.
So, discovering that folks like the disordred exoist and finding other folks that have dealt with similar weirdness, helped me understand that what i was dealing with was not normal behavior. I should have seen this earlier, but I was in denial.
Second, learning about this disorder made me get real about the prospects of my XW ever getting help and ever being a healthy partner. The stuff I've read is pretty clear that these folks rarely seek treatment and that it takes a long time with a lot of determination for them to change. There was nothing I would have liked more than my XW admitting she had a problem and seeking help. Despite her serial infidelity, I would have supported her if she had been willing to get help.
But, the disordred seem to avoid therapy like the plague. They know, on some level, that the last place they want to look at as a source of problems is inside themselves. They have spent a lifetime developing defense mechanisms that keep the focus off themselves.
So, learning helped me get real about the prospects of saving mu marriage as well as showing me that , other than getting out sooner, there was very little I could have done to change things in my marriage.

It would make a lot of sense that she has BPD. Most of the symptoms are there and she was physically and emotionally abused as a teenager.

I still have a lot of studying to do and I may never know for sure if she has BPD unless she's officially diagnosed.

Regardless, I feel very sorry for my WW. Her choices are only going to bring her misery in the end. I just want to love her which means I care about what happens to her regardless of whether our marriage survives.

I suppose believing that she has a personality disorder does help me to not take things she does so personally which is helpful.

Erichh, I do think the disordered may be in pain. But, they have developed such an ability to compartmentalize, it often does not appear that they are hurting. Typically, the only way these folks get help, if at all, is when they run out of options, sources of supply. So, in the long run, if she bottoms out as the result of this cheating, it may be the very thing that makes her seek help.
I think my XW is starting to expierience the bottoming out phenomena. She is very good looking , but now she has three young kids and is getting older. So competeing with the younger, less encumbered women is limiting her sources of supply. And, due to exposure, it is well known in our community that she is a cheater. She has had to curb her spending habits. She has been arrested for two misdemeanors in the last year. Whether these circumsyances will cause her to confront her disorder is anyone's guess.
But, you need to take care of yourself and your kids to the extent possible. You seem to have a decent chance of custody for your son . Make sure your attorney uses the ammo your wife's past and her current cheating supply. Most BPD's are undiagnosed. If you have the finanacial resources, you cna have her evaluated by an expert for custody issues.
It is sad to watch someone you love go down in flames like these folks eventually do. But, you cannot control her.

ehrich,

I just caught up on your threads.

Stick to just one. Don't jump around.

Here's the reality: Father's have rights and courts are starting to recognize those rights. They look to see who is the better parent and aren't supposed to be biased by gender.

I just went through this.

I can tell you right now that your greatest mistake will be to let her move out with your son.

There needs to be an emergency custody order and it has to happen now.

Subsidised government housing isn't exactly going to sound good to a judge.

Neither is a 3rd marriage with a history of violence.

Can you ally with the other ex husbands?

Do you have records of all the emails and instant messages exchanged between WW and OM?

I can't tell you enough. Don't let your son out of your house and get an immediate order establishing the marital home as the primary residence of the son. Push for supervised visitation and full, 100% custody.

Don't threaten her with it. Just do it.

Let her get slapped with reality when she gets served.

But your greatest mistake will be to let this happen.

That being said, I can tell you that you are living with BH fog. You're afraid of upsetting her. You think she's all that and worth saving (she's not).

And you're focused on all her positives and none of her negatives.

My ex fiance is on her 3rd husband and on a collision course with divorce #4. It was almost me.

Your WW is not marriage material. She pulled a good dog and pony religion show for you when you first met her and I'm sure she believed it at the time, but it's just not her.

You MUST establish yourself as the most stable parent.

Daycare isn't the end of the world. There's good ones out there and they'll probably take better care of your kid than she will.

Also, don't believe anything she says about anything. I heard the same stories as well about not wanting to get married for a long time, etc.

My exww is now setting up future BH2 and she met him just after our divorce, which was only one month after I discovered she was cheating on me with other men.

I made the mistakes you're making. I made it easy for her to bail and didn't fight.

I convinced myself that I didn't stand a chance as a man in court.

That's not true.

I've fought the good fight and have an arrangement now that is close to 50/50, but I was so shell shocked when I found out she wanted a divorce that I just lay down and let her take the kids.

So I basically handed her primary custody without a fight.

In hindsight I should have fought from the start and fought for primary, with a request to move to be near my family in my home state since we were both living in a location that was nowhere near either of our families.

Hindisight is 20/20 and what I'm saying to you is that you must get a protective order in place immediately.

You'll get your chance to bring up the violent past, the emails with OM, and may even be able to get her ex husbands to jump in on your behalf.

But the point is that you must fight from the start and not let her take your son without a fight.

This is no longer about Plan A or B. It's about your rights as a father and you're about to give those up.

What you need to do is file for abandonment and make sure you keep your son in your home.

Talk it all over with a lawyer, but you need to take action right now!

Excellent advice from pom. One is often so beat up and depleted after dealing with the trauma of infidelity, there is a temptation to just make the pain stop and to put up no fight. Get your lawyer to slap you if you start to roll over on things. You'll be living with these arrangements for a long time and you need to really fight for what is yours now.
Abandon the Plan A. Your wife is disordered and it will never work with her. Tell her to F-off and fight her.

Thanks for the wake-up call. I was in a fog for sure. I have an appointment with my attorney Monday, which is the soonest I could get. I spoke to him today and he said that unfortunately there is nothing we can do to keep my son from moving out this weekend.

But my attorney feels like it won't matter too much as long as we get moving immediately on all of this, which we will. I have petition papers and will work out the parenting plan over the holiday that I will give to attorney on Monday to file for legal separation with full custody.

I'm going to try to get in contact with ex-husband #1 because he was cheated on by her. I think he'll be more likely to side with me than husband #2 who is just a doormat.

I don't know if ex-husbands know yet that their kids are moving back to subsidized housing. I'll let them know and see if there is a possibility of allying.

I think the message to learn from all of this is that your WW is a horribly flawed individual who will never have a stable relationship. She will go through probably 6 or more husbands in her life. Fight for your kid because that is all you have control over, and you don't want this woman screwing up your child for life by having the most time and biggest influence over him.

UPDATE:


I did call my WW's 1st ex-husband and told him everything that is going on. He said that he was shaking as I told him everything and that he was scared for his daughter! I told him that I was going for full custody and that if he was going to do something legal against her, now would be the time. He asked how much a retainer would cost and I told him it was $2000. He says he is in the middle of a bankruptcy but his inlaws are very wealthy and would probably loan him the money.

I really think he may actually try to get custody of his daughter!!! This would be so great for us to hit her at the same time.

He told me some things that I didn't know about WW. She had TWO affairs while married to him. And she was NOT separated during the first affair.

First ex-husband and I are going to keep in close contact from now on because he is worried about his daughter as he should be...

This is great news.

Now stick to this thread only and don't start new ones. It makes it tough to follow you if you're jumping around and we wish to help.

This news about the ex H is very good.

One father going against a mom is difficult. Two fathers, however, who believe their children aren't well off with this woman can make a very powerful team. There's the chance you two could team up with your lawyer and request respective custody together.

It's HUGE to have him on your side. Stay in close contact with him.

It's a very big deal to have him help you.

There are services out there that help you represent yourself in family court.

Google "Father's Rights" and you'll get to a few of them.

The combined strength of the two of you could be enough to shake her out of this fantasy and let her know very clearly that neither of you will allow this to happen without a fight.

She feels entitled because she's a woman and she believes that that alone is enough to give her an advantage in court. She's correct in some respects, but is very incorrect to assume that that alone is enough to win in family court. Two fathers testifying about the concern over their children can make a very powerful argument against her.

This is a very positive development. He may not wish to get into a custody fight, but could certainly testify on your behalf.

I am definitely going to work closely with ex H.

Ok, I don't know how I'm going to do it yet without a legal document in hand, but I'm not letting my son move out with my WW this weekend. She'll have to peel him away from my kung-fu grip to take him away from me.

I'm going to have to play this smart though. I'm not sure if I should tell WW before hand that I'm not going to allow her to take him, because then she may try something sneaky like taking him in the middle of the night or something...

I know you said that you lived in Missouri. Not sure which side of the state you are on, but if you are in the St. Louis area, I know that the law firm of Kordell & Kordell specializes in fathers' rights. I don't know anyone who has used them, but I know that is what they advertise (on a side note, I think Ozzie Smith used them in his divorce).

Edit: Actually it's Cordell & Cordell, and they have offices on both sides of the state.

Check with your lawyer, but I would call your local cop shop, tell them your concern, you are in the kid's legal residence, you want them to stay there. Have the first H do it too. Communicate the answer to your w via certified mail.

You don't want a scene where the cops show up and she starts screaming your a child abuser or whatever. They have been there once, right?

Bad for you, bad for the kids. Get the cops on your side beforehand.

Have you and the exH call child protective services and inform them that you both have this concern about your kids.

You guys are a team here. Two people expressing concern will get attention.

Let her know you're not letting this happen. Let her know that the exH is aware and is opposed as well and that you are both contacting the police to handle this and that you will not permit your children to be taken out of your home.

Time for hardball.

You're doing well and are having your fog lift. Just don't let her talk you into anything different.

Let her rant and rave. The law is on your side here.

She can move out if she wishes.

Here is my plan for this weekend. Will anyone please let me know if you see any holes or pitfalls in my plan?

WW will complete moving out this Saturday. Our step children will be at their Dads' until Sunday at 6PM. When step children return, WW says she will take them and our son to her new apartment to live.

I have two alternatives that I am considering:

1) On Sunday, I'll take our son to church (from 1PM to 4PM) and go to brother and sister-in-law's house after church and hang out until late and then go back to my house with son and change the locks. I bought new locks today.

2) Come home after church and have my wife's sister come over at about 6PM and be a witness while I tell my wife that I will not allow her to take my son away from our home. Sister-in-law (WW's sister) is 100% OK with coming over to be a witness so that my WW can't accuse me of being violent or threatening.

Plan 1 is easier because I avoid any confrontation with WW but at same time, it could look like I'm taking our child away from her. How would this look to courts? I know they frown upon alienation.

Plan 2 is harder and has possibility of "tug-of-war" scenario with my son and could be traumatic for other kids to see, but then it would definitely be my wife abandoning my son because she'd be leaving him at the house while she goes to her new apartment.

My brother and sister in law are very eager to help out and said that they will watch our son during the day for as long as I need. Consequently, they just moved to a new house which my WW has never been to so she may not be able to find my son during the day.

I know that I have to be careful that I do not alienate my son from WW because courts frown on that. That is the only thing that I am worried about..

Any input on which plan is better or any suggestions? Thank you for all of your input and help!