</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SAD... very Sad who's raising our children????
Wasnt the point of porn that is was 'naughty'. It's not even that, anymore.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, this is important to me. Do I want to raise my children the same way I was raised?

I have to ask myself some questions? Even though porn is bad, if my socialization and adult views lead me to be a happier person, is that good or bad? If this stance somehow encouraged my H to cheat on me, then that is bad. But, if this stance in which I let my man know how I feel about it being degrading and making me feel somewhat insecure, allows him to be happy and me to be comfortable, then that is good. I would prefer to have this socialization, understanding the pros and cons now, and not feel shame and constant hurt that so many women feel when their man doesn't want to just drop it and never think about it, again. Most men wouldn't do that. Most men wouldn't want to...esp. with the constant temptations in our society.

Now, if men were not socialized to think porn was normal, then this would be very different, but I cannot control that. I can only control myself...and influence those around me...most importantly, my children.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I plan to teach my children that porn is degrading to the people who perform it. But, I don't plan to throw a fit when I see it. I don't plan to make sex out to be dirty. I will share with my children the ways in which I see our society handling sexuality, which things I think are wrong (yes, the way society pushes porn is wrong), and the things that I think are okay, and the things that I think are right. I CANNOT change what our society portrays as normal, but I can let my children know how I feel about those things.

Smile

Nelly I do hear you. And I was stating it as a just something we do when we are evaluating our value system. We do it to be fair and to feel that we are doing the "right" things, and shame is something that keeps us from enjoying certain behaviors, but it also warns us to protect somethings that are kind of sacred, don't you think?

And I also understand the men and women differences. We are more verbal, they are more visual. It doesn't help does it!

But, to make matters improved, talking here and opening up discussions at home, in an easy way, I don't know, but you can learn some new things about your old man. I have learned a couple things after nearly 16 years of marriage, and 3 children, a cat and 2 dogs. And all of the hassles that goes with this package.

Ultimately, it is all worth the efforts!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Regarding teaching children. They will learn more from what you watch and magazines, tv, than what you teach them with your words.

Want to hear a funny story of my two boys talking? One says to the other, he wants to marry one of those lady angels on the Victoria Secrets adds. The other says to his little brother, that by the time youre old enough, they will be old and ugly!

So, children are absolutely wonderful. I want to protect them from this harsh and raunchy world, but it is too in our faces. What they already understand and know about sex is astounding.

Some of this stuff, I did not know about til I was 20 years old for heaven's sake!

But we have love and that will never die in this sometimes very stupid world.

Yes, entertainment is different -but love is still love and the basic rules of marriage and family living are still evident.

For the longest time I thought it harmless and rather silly. I looked at a little out of mild curiosity, but I wasn't all that interested the same way I didn't care for those cheesy romance novels with the graphic descriptions of sex -- I'd rather have the real thing, and the paper version just wasn't interesting.

Eventually I started running across news stories about the abuses rife in the sex industry in general, and it was pretty grim. I still thought of porn as the mostly harmless part of it. Then one story blew the lid off that idea, and I was horrified at what I had been carelessly dismissing as "harmless", to myself and others. I did some research into the issue, so as to not go jumping into any wild conclusions, and was sickened by what I learned.

That's how I developed the opinion that saying someone is a good or responsible pornographer is like saying someone is a good or responsible slaveholder. The entire system is deranged.

At that point I drew a distinction between looking at porn vs. looking at the Victoria's Secret catalog. I buy things from Victoria's Secret through the catalog regularly, so I don't view it as porn, though the poses are sometimes so silly you can't make out all the properties of the item you might want to buy. I didn't see any harm at that point in a man using the Victoria's Secret catalog as porn.

It was later I began to understand more of the subtleties of prejudice, particularly sexism. And that not treating or thinking about individuals in a dehumanizing way is sometimes easier to process for us than how we think about entire demographic groups.

An object lesson in this I learned from my father. For years I listened to him make remarks about how women are just emotional and don't have the intellectual powers that men do, and so on. Since I'd heard him also make some mildly racist remarks that never failed to set my teeth on edge, I thought of it all as part of the package. It did bug me. I tried to shrug it off as generation gap. Then I began to realize that this was a man of good concience who had been through a long life with difficulties I could not understand and had not grown up with the privileges he provided me, and I decided to just accept him and the fact that he might never change. There was one conversation where without saying it in so many words, we agreed to disagree and leave it at that -- I cheerfully said "ah, my dad's a sexist oink" and he said "yes I am!" and we both grinned at each other and that was that. For years after that I would simply not react when he spouted sexist notions, though I did find it pretty funny that for all his technical background and education, I can whomp him at math with ease, but he claimed women are just plain inferior at math. Or that women are no good at science and engineering, but he was wildly enthusiastic about my decision to become an engineer. And to make matters more interesting, he was perpetually annoyed at the Catholic Church for refusing to ordain women, which he thought a ridiculous refusal of potential talent.

Eventually I realized something profound; though he's fought in two wars, his racial prejudices weren't against the enemies he'd fought. All he ever says about those peoples are that they are good hardworking people with great natural abilities and profound courage and it's tragic their countries have known such turmoil. From what little I know about his experiences in war I'd think if he hated anyone, it would be the enemies he had fought, but he only has respect for them. It made me realize he understands peace in a way I just can't comprehend.

Like all of us, he can be very human towards individuals in front of us but rather callous towards those with whom we don't or haven't had much personal contact. And it's sadly the way we are that dehumanizing anyone in our minds or actions can taint or harm how we treat those we hold dear. Particularly if they are a member of a demographic group we hold in scorn, or not even scorn, just a little less than as fully human as we are.

As I was trying to process all this, I ran across an article that sums it up pretty well. I'll post it here.

Edited to add a footnote: My dad amazes me. I'd accepted that "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" and he was going to hold opinions I found repellant forever. But after a time, he took a good look at who I was and what I was accomplishing and realized some of his opinions just didn't hold water. These days I never hear "Women just can't do X" anymore, I hear about my brilliant great-aunt the nun and rescuer of troubled schools, and a more distantly related aunt the mathematical genius and poker whiz, and my great-grandmother the great lady who could handle anything the world threw at her and still make her family feel safe and snug and ready to smile.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I care about is that sanctity of marriage in these walls is maintained. And when we hear tell of a man discreetly "using" porn, well just what is using porn anyhow, and discreetly, that means, sneaking? And how you will keep tabs on that, I would not even venture to guess.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok...when I say discreetly, that does not mean that he is sneaking around. That means he is looking at porn when I'm not around. Maybe I'm out with the girls. Maybe I'm at work and he stayed home to do his calculations. Maybe I'm off visiting family. Maybe I'm on the rag and just zonked myself out with some painkillers and happily sleeping. He does it in a way that I don't just walk in on him. But if I ever did, I wouldn't attack him, I'd join him.

I don't have to keep tabs on it. Because I don't tell him he can't do it, he feels comfortable being honest about it with me. I don't feel the need to keep tabs on it as long as I am getting SF to my standards. Curiosity got me to ask him about frequency. My tone and reaction encouraged continued honesty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the fact is that it is seemingly something that one is trying to convince herself that it is just to be accepted. Why, because he has this habit. But habits can change.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Habits can change...and so can perceptions. If he is not hurting me or threatening our marriage or being a bad role model for our children...well, what is he doing that is so wrong? If I could not get to where I am now and it just plain hurt me, then that's what he's doing wrong. And this is what most couples are facing. But, by understanding the socialization, his intentions, the human mind, the boundaries, etc., if I can become tolerant and comfortable, then why should he stop?

I'm not trying to convince anyone else that this is what they need to do. I'm just explaining how I got here. I see no harm in that.

Smile

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Here is the article I mentioned:

What is Misogyny?
by Jim

A year ago when I first stumbled onto the Heartless *****es web site, I didn’t really know what misogyny was, although I thought I did. Misogyny, as defined in my dictionary, is "the hatred of women," which seems simple enough, but what was not clear to me was why certain behaviors or characteristics were being defined as related to misogyny. For example, why is objectifying women’s bodies considered misogynistic? Why are "nice guys" described on this site labeled misogynists? "Hate" implies scorn, hostility or animosity. Although I understood that objectifying women is wrong, it seemed like "hate" was too strong a word here, after all, many guys claim to "love" or "appreciate" women. The "love" they claim to have seemed faked, but it is still a far cry from "hate."

I started to do more research on this, and came across some interesting ideas. One particularly valuable resource was a book called "The Centerfold Syndrome," by Gary Brooks. The author states that while objectification "calls for men to become observers, it also calls for women to become the observed. Women become objects as men become objectifiers." He goes on to explain that women are expected to accept the role of stimulators of men’s visual interest. This visual interest focuses on a two dimensional view of women, one that values the physical characteristics of women while ignoring personal character or any of the inner complexities that are inherent in human beings. When I understood this, I realized that when I hear someone claim how much they "love" women, they are really talking about love for a two dimensional view of women and the women who pursue that ideal. They are not talking about women as they really are.

This all made a lot of sense, but I still had not made the connection to the word "hate." Eventually I made the connection when I found this website: http://www.sfo.com/~brothered/hatethem.htm The author summed up his reason for creating the site and his dislike of women in one simple sentence: "I hate women because I want their attention and they won’t give me any." So what a misogynist truly loves is the shallow image of women that exists only in one’s mind and is illustrated in society in such things as pornography or mainstream media that espouses that ideal. The hatred is directed at real women, for not living up to a misogynist’s expectations of women being easy to control and for not providing adequate stimulation for men’s interest.

Once I figured this out, many things about misogyny became clear. A misogynistic value system would favor women who put out and are easy to control. Misogynists would talk about women in a dehumanized way, i.e., nice legs, great [censored], etc, as if women were nothing more than a collection of body parts. Dating and relationships would become a game of manipulation fraught with various seedy techniques ( http://www.sosuave.com/quick/tip208.htm ) and ploys ( http://www.sosuave.com/quick/tip186.htm ) designed to get women to have sex. Something else I noticed as I browsed the web is that although misogynists try to control women ( http://www.sosuave.com/quick/tip210.htm ), they are ironically dependent on women for validation in front of other men and society. This dependence is disempowering and only adds to the anger and resentment misogynists feel towards women.

But why are "nice guys" misogynists? In the book "The Gift of Fear," Gavin DeBecker defines "niceness" as a "strategy of social interaction" and not evidence of innate goodness. So what he is saying is that being "nice" merely means your behavior is not offensive but does not mean your motives are automatically pure or good. Being a "nice guy" has been discussed elsewhere ( http://www.heartless-*****es.com/ngc/ngi-1.shtml ) so there is no need to go into great detail here, but the bottom line is that trying to "be nice" or to use one’s social charm to achieve one’s social or sexual objectives is just as manipulative as anything else. The details are different, but what is at the core is the same.

It should also be pointed out that in addition to hurting women, misogyny also hurts men. By objectifying women, men are also objectifying themselves. Dating and sex becomes a contest as misogynists try to achieve high degrees of "success" with women, with success being defined as receiving attention from the most desirable women. Emotions are repressed, personal growth is stunted and true intimacy becomes impossible.

Although at this time I had answered my original questions, I had raised many more questions and problems in the process. First and foremost, I began to reflect on things I have said or done in the past, and I realized that some of it I am now not too proud of. In a lot of ways I had bought into the lies that misogyny teaches, and this has led me to make bad decisions or to say or do foolish things. I am pretty annoyed at myself for this, but I cannot change the past. What I can do is learn from it and be glad I figured it out when I am young. I can try to share what I have learned with others who are facing the same thing, which is what I am doing now. And I can also strive to form healthier relationships with women in the future. But how? Unfortunately in my pursuit of understanding misogyny I have had to scuttle much of what I know about building relationships with women because I realized that much of it was based on something that is simply wrong. Which brings up the next question: what is right? This is something I have not finished thinking through, so I will not address that here. What I do know, however, is that by being sincere and thoughtful, and by understanding my own self worth and the value of the people around me, I will build stronger relationships with others and have a more meaningful life. And I have to believe that a relationship with a woman can be built on that much more soundly than one built on misogyny.

Edited to add back in links that were in the original article.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: mineownself ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by smile: Now, if men were not socialized to think porn was normal... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Men are now ONLY getting that point of view! The Women in Mens lives, their GF's, w's, mom's, are supposed to be giving the other side. The opposition (that would have been Smile 20 years ago) has been squelched!

Women used to take a stand. Women used to think it was terribly degrating to see a young girl in porn. They used to think, 'that's someone's daughter'.

Now, that they've convinced otherwise reasonable women that's porn is 'normal', the smut-peddlers job is done. - Dru

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

Thank-you Mineownself. Beautifully written. I wish to read your article when you will post it!

I was also thinking of some horror stories of young and truly girls, that had been coaxed into this type of slavery. I most certainly hear you on this.

Look at the young people on these perfume ads, selling sex, rather than the product. They too are being usurped and their innocence is stolen out of their being.

What I perceive to be true is that Mineownself has a pretty good perception. Thank-you so much for that input. It is in clarification that we can feel relief.

Thank-you to everyone for your input here. It is an eye opener! And I hope it helps to alleviate any pain that you experience regarding this issue.

Talk here is good, not cheap! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

that is an interesting point, drucilla.
but, i don't know smile is convinced she is perfectly ok w/ it and her man knows that. she has set some boundries.
honesty and communication being the first.

i know i am not and know i never will be 100% ok w/ it...... i state that to my husband.
and i think our communication is getting to a point where he wants me to understand him better and he will open up to me.

but,i would much rather understand what's going on in his head then demand him never to look at it and feel justified just because I SAID THAT.
i want the honesty.
the communication. the understanding.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: nelly ]</small>

You know, there are a lot of things we do and use that come to us as a result of either animal abuse or inhumane measures.
If you really want to get your H to stop using porn, I think the way these girls are treated is the best angle to take because it is truly depressing the more you learn.

There are lots of products that we use both American made, but more frequently imported, that are in our hands as a result of slave labor. It's really sad. Porn may be one of the cruelest forms of inhumane labor issues, but I actually think a lot of girls choose to do it for the money. They aren't treated well, but most of them likely have the choice to leave and live in poverty with a hint of dignity left. Does that make it good? No. But, that does not mean it is not normal...i.e. within the norms of a given society.

Saying that society has tricked me and manipulated me to believe that porn is normal is a contradiction. Society is what dictates what IS normal. That is the job of society. That is the definition of "normal". Is what is normal "right"? Not always. In my opinion, frequently not at all. I think media has too much power of societal views. Thus media is becoming what dictates what is normal. I think half the crap media puts out is wrong.

And so I yammer,
Smile

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Drucilla:
<strong>[QUOTE] Men are now ONLY getting that point of view! The Women in Mens lives, their GF's, w's, mom's, are supposed to be giving the other side. The opposition (that would have been Smile 20 years ago) has been squelched!

Women used to take a stand. Women used to think it was terribly degrating to see a young girl in porn. They used to think, 'that's someone's daughter'.

Now, that they've convinced otherwise reasonable women that's porn is 'normal', the smut-peddlers job is done. [/b]- Dru</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every little bit helps. As an engineer, I work and live in a world of men, and I use the attitude "a little warm vulgarity is infinitely preferable to a whole lot of pinched niceness". While "the guys" may be a little rough around the edges, they truly don't wish to make me uncomfortable. And because of me, they've learned more about the difference between just plain raunchy humor, which I'm fine with even when it's gross, and misogynistic humor. And they respect that difference, along with the fact that I don't put up with women who man-bash.

And they all know my opinions on porn. That one person of good conscience is willing to take an unpopular stand makes people think, and it makes it easier for others to stand up as well.

Thank-you Mineownself. You have a well thought out perspective and supported with very good facts. I think we can read this over again to get a better view of what this is truly about.

Money? And how much the public will pay, in terms of debt and sanctity.

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: WFLOWER ]</small>

actually, smile..
my h and i talked a bit about what he dislikes about porn himself just last night.

he said...it's the marketing and how he got sucked in and sucked back and how it made him feel like a fool
like a sucker.
and no guy likes to feel like a sucker.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by nelly that is an interesting point, drucilla. but, i don't know smile is convinced she is perfectly ok w/ it and her man knows that</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yeah, but she's been convinced (by her bf, and earlier experiences) it's </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by smile Porn seemed normal to me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... and, (not quoting here, and I hate NOT to quote Smile) that it's inevitable and (I wish I could find the quote) that if we believe our H's dont do it, that we're fooling ourselves.

She's been lead to believe she shouldnt make waves about it...

That someone could type the title of this post just amazes me.

Why dont we just say, 'heck, it's OK for H's to get bj & hj at the massage parlour <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I mean really, it's just OUR insecurities getting in the way. They LOVE us, and wouldnt leave us for a parlour girl, and it IS inevitable, so we should just deal with it'

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

You don't have to worry about quoting me on that Dru...I'll repeat myself. I believe that most men view porn whether spend money on videos and magazines, buy sex (I think this is farely rare, but do not know),or get it off the Internet (the number one thing searched for online is porn).

I believe that most men, when confronted with an uncomfortable or angry wife, will learn to hide it and lie in order to keep the peace and keep doing what they want to. To believe that just by expressing your disapproval he will suddenly stop, for most women, is fooling themselves. When I say most, I'm not referring to the MB population of inquisitive men.

Can you prove otherwise?

Smile

"just deal with it?"

no,no, that's not what i mean at all.

"just learn to live w/ it and shup up about it??"

no,no..not me. that's the way my husband dealt w/ it. denial.
no, i need to understand it to DEAL w/ him.
know what i mean?

NO, smile, and you cant PROVE your point, either. You said you BELIEVE... and that's my point.

You've been convinced...

Who convinced you? And WHAT DO YOU THINK was their motive?

...smile never answers my direct questions - Dru

<small>[ October 10, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: Drucilla ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who convinced you? And WHAT DO YOU THINK was their motive?
...smile never answers my direct questions - Dru
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummm...Drucilla? That was the first direct question you asked me in this thread. I just went back to make sure. All I see in your other posts are bits and pieces of analysis, some assumptions, and a few nasty comments.

Who convinced me of what? That porn is normal? I already explained my thoughts on that and no one replied. Porn IS normal because it is all around us, on tv, on the Internet, in clothes stores...it's everytwhere! You don't get to say what's normal, Drucilla. Society dictates that. And it's unfortunate that society is mostly driven by media, because media loves SEX! Sex Sells! Just because it's not right does not have anything to do with what's normal.

I find your accusations and comments to be very rude. That snide comment about me not answering your direct questions was unnecessary and incorrect. You didn't ask any questions. That's not an opinion, a perspective, or a fantasy...that's a fact. No question marks...no questions.
I answered your only question directly. I will not respond to your abuse, again. If you want to be polite like most of the other people here and treat me with respect, I might reconsider. But, when you don't get responses to future questions with that nasty tone, you can blame yourself, not me.

Smile

i am sorry it's come to this again.
this was a very productive and interesting thread.