I absolutely agree, and have said to some friends I don't even think the relationship with the OW is very fulfilling and that its the pride that is going to be a deal signer for us. Its sad because its the affair that would be easier if this does not recover and not a pride issue.
I pray continually that God humbles him, that's the only way and It'll take humility to agree to conditions.

Christmas party is over, last guests just left, Thanks lil turtle for making me have the party, I really did enjoy myself. I love entertaining and used to do it all the time before this all happened but stopped for the most part. So I enjoyed myself and now that I am ready to start cleaning I think I will hunt you down, just kidding, you get a free pass go card since I had fun. Yippee!

Well I see that my thread was busy today. Well I have several thoughts and the posts today. I appreciate all the perspectives too. I think that ultimately my H will have to be humbled to even accept the conditions. There is NO WAY he could even do it with out true repentance and humility, the pride would not allow the agreement. So I think that I won't make him apologize to the IM's, at least at first.

Several thoughts on that. I think the IM's go into this knowing that the WS's are absolutely going to be against this. I think they are not surprised a bit and do not take it personal. I think the IM's are more focused on the goal than sometimes us BS's are. They understand that they are fighting for your marriage with you and this allows them to not take it personal. I know had they met Mr. T2L that he would have loved them and they would have loved him. He is not the man I knew, as with all WS's. I think that if he does agree, there actually may be a time where he will apologize to them and HE may actually need it for his OWN recovery more than I or the IM's if that makes sense.
My H, pre-A hated hurting people if he could help it, but then he had the other side where he would get irritated and have lil bouts of anger. But then he could never really be happy. It was strange to me as I am the happy cat of the family. He even told DD17 your mom is just so positive and happy go lucky and IM JUST NOT THAT WAY. Its like he didn't know how to shake his unhappiness and I think eventually he blamed me and the marriage for it and maybe even his kids a little. I don't even think he understands this about himself yet, but think he may one day. But I would love nothing more than my IM's to, by chance of a miracle, get to meet and or see or speak with my H. I welcome that!

All I know is that I am changing a little each day and becoming freer and less motivated by fear of him leaving or retaliating in anger. It is NOT easy and I have anxiety a bit when I have to set boundaries by providing info to the IM's but like I teach the kids you become brave when you do it afraid, so that's what I do. Am I totally free in the fear dept? Not yet but hey baby steps are still steps. He won't be able to come back and just walk in trust me on this guys, T2L is not the T2L that walked on eggshells before. I have already had my biggest fear happen so its not like I can lose anything. I have much to gain by understanding that I am worthy of respect and agreement to conditions and I will accept NOTHING less. It may be tricky should he pull the Christmas stunt-But again I really really really think he was spouting off and that's great because I am prepared so no biggie.

So half way through the party, DD17 is texting her dad and she says we are having a Christmas Party. Well apparently he did NOT like this at all-he was mad he was not invited-uh am I missing something LOLOLOL.

He told DD17 he was not invited and DD17 says well of course not mom is not talking to you. And he says well that's not my brilliant idea its hers. And DD17 says of course its moms idea but mom would love for you to be here but you need to go NO contact. Then this i guess pisses him off and he says NO one is gonna control me and I can talk to who I want to and your mom is brainwashing you all. DD17 says mom doesn't need to brainwash me for me to need to know that 3 people in a relationship is wrong. He says to her your mom lives and breathes by me(I guess he thinks this because I am a full time stay at home mom he takes care of??) he gets mad and says just be my daughter and never talked to her again.

I know I know I am not supposed to know this stuff my curiosity got the best of me and I asked her what he said.

Anyways Dark Plan B...No contact.

Whatcha all think about all that? I think he's pissed cuz I am still living my life and all his friend were here.

Oh boy, well DD17 said dad is coming over tomorrow to use his tools. I said great well let me know which ones he wants and I will leave them out for him.

This will not be good for him, I think he is still mad about party and he is using tools as a reason to come.

He told DD17 your mom is trying to control me, and I will never live under control!

I feel like it sometimes but I just don't want to share so If that means I am controlling then okay I guess.

T2L, I have been following your thread off and on. I just have to tell you that your daughter is AWESOME! My daughter (13 at the time of her dad's affair) is a strong one, too. I was so proud of her resolve to stand firm during tst's affair.

You done good with that one! She knows what she needs to know.

What a joke. He doesn't even see that he IS living "under control" of his own pride, selfishiness and stubbornness. He is BOUND and CHAINED by them. If he ever breaks free, he'll figure out that is no way to live.

That's my feeling, too.

I don't let what an ACTIVE waynerd says offend or hurt me.

They speak with forked tongues, anyway...even their insults are off base and imbalanced.

Nope.

I just want him to utilize the crowbar we FedExed him to pull his head out of his bahooba.

If that doesn't work, I know of a skilled proctologist.

This is OWs words he is parroting back at you. IRL, pre-a, he probably would have never even THOUGHT this.

Typical waynerd/op speak.

SSDD.

I have an assignment for you: Type this, print it out on your computer in big, fun letters (I like Comic Sans), and tape it on your bathroom mirror so you can see it every morning and every night.

I think I'll do it, too.

btw, if I were you, I'd find a way to put ALL his tools outside somewhere so he doesn't have an excuse to 'break into' the house or garage or whatever to get to 'his' possessions. He seems to be the kind of person who might use this as an excuse to break through that barrier you've put up.

SMB,
Awe thanks. She is a strong one. She can say anything to her dad, things I have never or could never and she does not care. She says I have lost respect for him. I think she visits him out of pity, its kinda sad. She is not mean to him when they visit, this is just how it is in her head. I am very proud of her. She's gonna graduate a few months early too.


He told her that I am trying to be close to you but your mom is brain washing you. Last night when we went to bed(D17 and text each other from each others rooms LOL) I say you know DD17 you are welcome to be close to your dad. She texts back no thanks, I might be nuts to, and I sent her a silly response, well myabe just coconuts and she laughs. I think when he said you mom lives and breathes by me she realized even further that he is totally of his rocker. She read the text and her eyes got big and she was like OMG and she said he's nuts and texted him dad you sound crazy.

Ya know I wonder after responses like yesterday if there is any chance. I hate this and what he's done to the family.

Is this man gonna get it? Can I make it to that point.

SMB, feel free to post to me any time, everyone refers to you here very highly. I have started to read your thread and just in the beginning pages of it but others have referred me to your story to help me.

I just keep hoping and keep going.

Cat,
Yeah I know I really need to put it up for days when I don't feel so strong. I am a visual person to so it really would help me LOL.

I am going to gather some of the tools in a bit and leave then out front. I just remembered that he is working in my city today so I am just getting things together and I'm gonna get out of here.

Really, you think so. I don't know why it never dawns on me that SHE is saying things to him. I mean they must right? I know call me naive.

But then he couldn't really tell her how mad he was about not being invited to the party tho. I think he was really mad about not coming which I really don't get. I really don't get that. I mean like what, your just gonna show up like you dont live with the Sea hag?!?!?! Why would you want to go? He tells DD17 well you all have fun at my expense and DD17 says what are you talking about dad its a potluck!

PM,
No he truly does not see it. He with all his heart thinks that I am controlling him. He has said it so much I sometimes I scratch my head and wonder if I am. The pride is full blown, I mean it must have been there pre-A some level right? Sometimes I cannot believe how far he has fallen.

Yesterday at the end of church DD17 and I were up on the Altar. DD17 has decided to sing with her momma again, I love it! I would love to train her and have her fill in leading for me but believe it or not in that kind of setting she gets a little self conscious so hopefully she won't quit after a month again. Anyways were standing up there and she whispers to me, mommy remember last Christmas before Sunday church service? She says remember daddy took an offering to bless the Pastor and his family and kinda spoke to the church about blessing him because of all he does? I said yeah I remember, funny how things change in a year ha DD17. We both just looked at each other and frowned.

PM,
I know your H was kinda similar so if you or he has any words of wisdom for a worship leader and fallen associate Pastor, really feel free to elaborate anytime.

Hey I wanted to ask you all to. Its seems to me that you all are pretty much church goin folks. Did all your H's return to church? I would hope that one day he would return back to church but I can't imagine how hard that would be and if he could do it. Is this important in your book guys?

My ex never did return to our church. Sad. And that is one of the reasons why I doubt his sincerity when he says he is so sorry.

We were leaders of the "Young Married" fellowship group. My ex was a leader at the mens' retreats, and in all the sports things, and I led a recovery group. We had been members for 18 years.

When I exposed his affair, the pastor let him know that he was no longer welcome at church until he came in and talked to the pastors. He never did.

Okay.

I'll say it.

cha-cha-cha-CHICKEN!

BWAK!

I had a cha-cha-cha-CHICKEN, too.

It took over a year for the Wookie to truly grow his huevos back and face my parents.

So DD17 and I go out to shop so we are not home if he comes for tools. He calls DD17 and says hes in the area can she visit and where is DS10.

She tells him that she is shopping with me and that DS10 is with a friend. Do you know he made no mention of those tools he said he needed to come by and use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Of course not he prob never needed them in the 1st place he was just pissed he didn't get to come to the Christmas party.

Anyways its really retarded. The only time he wants to visit the kids is if hes in the area, if he's not then he doesn't. Really annoying!

Anyways, dark Plan B day, no contact. Yes, I still hate it! So annoying how stubborn a person can be. I mean is he happy?? I do wonder but then think how on earth can he be??

Okay need to shut up......Anyways I emailed a pic to faith for the MB photo album so you alls can have a picture and connection. I looked you all up and now I know my IM's and urbody who helps me!!!!! Off to to grocery shop.

tst returning to church was one of the actions I required before he could come home because it would demonstrate his willingness to humble himself. My list also included fully disclosing all his lies to both our parents, a few other family members and close friends. His willingness to do that would demonstrate his repentance of his sin and his desire to give back the respect I had lost in other's eyes becaused of his lies.

I also felt us returning to church as a family was critical to our recovery. The affair was a spiritual attack on our family and the sooner those church relationships were re-established, the safer we were.

tst was very willing to do all those things immediately, and I was not willing to accept anything less that everything I said I needed.

But tst is not your ordinary FWS. He was completely broken by God. I consider what he experienced similar to what Paul experienced when the scales fell from his eyes.

All I can suggest is decide what you NEED. What actions could he take to demonstrate the CHANGE OF HEART you need. Start with the character and it will lead you to what you need to require of him for admission back into your life.

A verse that helped me understand how my Christian husband could become something so unrecognizable:


When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
James 1:13-15


My husband's sin was full-grown and our marriage was dead because of it.



This verse helped me understand the path my husband needed to take to return home and be restored as a husband, father, and leader:


Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Cor. 7:10

Godly sorrow was the #1 character on my list. I used this verse to understand the difference between worldly sorrow (sorry I hurt you) and Godly sorrow (grieving over the sin and its destruction).


I knew that my husband needed more than restoration with me, he needed it with his children, his fellow believers, and most importantly, his God.

Whoa! Okay so did he laugh you out the door or become angry when you showed him conditions? Man truly your story must be a miracle of God, I am just freaked out. Well Im sure you read that my H was an associate Pastor, and I know that what happened was absolutely a spiritual attack. In fact in prayer 1 month before Dday as I was praying I heard that an attack was coming against the family to steal the call of God. We were being raised to have this church handed over to us in the next year or 2, my H had just started bible college too.

It is exhausting but you give me hope. I think If I put that as a condition he would flip the heck out! Was TST really stubborn, I mean really really stubborn? Did he have any anger issues?

I am standing but man its hard, its really hard, but from what I hear recovery is worse. How long was your plan B?

I agree with this. I just think he won't be ready for a ways down the pike. But I totally get what Mom meant about it being about his attitude.

Give your DD a big hug - she takes all his gaslighting and blows it up in his face! And don't worry about it yourself. Until his rectocraniotomy occurs, nothing he says will be recognizable as distant cousins of logic or sense.

5 weeks woohoo!