Nowis there is something nagging at me here. I think the therapist may be right that you each need to step back and work on yourselves. I think you need to find out what motivates you and what your expectations are. Understand your perspectives clearly and work on the triads that JL outlined and how they apply to you. Right now you are sounding depressed and frustrated. You are happy when the kids are happy because they provide a distraction.


And that is a good move. You also need to monitor stinky thinking. Also an inventory of when you feel best. What brings you satisfaction. Your funk is not your husbands problem. It is yours so take ownership of that and work on yourself. I am getting the sense you may be waiting for him to do something that will bring you satisfaction, even if he was able to do that, it would only be temporary.

Good luck and hope you have a good ski trip

Thanks BCB

Yes, I think we have to do that. In the last 5 days my H does not want to me to even touch him and I mean not touch him. No hugs or anything. Never been like this before. So, affection has kind of gone out of the window. I guess I have to just honor how he feels right now.

I think we are soo fatigued we are eroding each other I think. That's the best way I can describe it. I don't know what to do anymore. I think we are both lonely but he's so scarred and I want to do the right thing whatever that is.

I guess it's best to just self soothe. It's hard. You don't want to focus on each other and just give each other space but then at every turn you seem to be thrust together and in each other's faces.

Nowis, I encourage you to consider making an appointment with the Harleys. You can call by yourself if your H doesn't want to join. They are amazing at motivation and getting you thinking about your goals and identifying if the plan that you're working will get you there.

Your perseverance in the hard times is encouraging. I'd just like to see you make it easier on yourself. The MB plan wiht the FC and UA time, gives a lot of respite from the bad feelings, the judgement, and the distance. Remember, Nowis, that this isn't some punishment that you have earned. That it is a starting point, an opportunity for growing together.

Ears

Thanks. Yes, I would like that. Everything is taking its toll. I don't feel like I can talk to anyone else. Always talking to some expert but everything just seems to move at its own lumbering speed.

You are perceptive about my feelings and thoughts. You see perseverance - that helps me. I see myself as thrashing around in the dark and then paralyzed quite a good chunk of the time. It's good to hear that this is a starting point because my overriding thoughts are "this needs to be over".

JL

I hope all is well with you.

Nowis, I can so relate to those thoughts. I am sorry to say this, but I even used to wish my husband would just die. Because I didn't see any other way out of being mistreated. No options that I thought would be good. It felt endless.

You know it's taken me a lot of time and consistency, but I don't feel that way anymore. I would imagine that you get periods of respite from these feelings, too. That you do find some peace and serenity.

I am back on the anti-depressants, too. It helps me to at least get to the point that I can call someone on the phone, journal, take a walk, watch my kids sleep, do something to get back out of those bad moments. I don't have bad days anymore. Just bad moments. I'd like to think that I would also be okay without them. But I have to look at reality, see how I can make today gentler on me.

The travel has been SO hard on me. I don't think that we were meant to take on the child-rearing alone. Is this something that will go away at some point for you two? Maybe as your H gets more seniority?

Nowis,

Everything is fine I am just reading along as you Ears and BCB discuss things. I think it is a good discussion so really I have nothing to offer.

Why has your H changed with regards to letting you touch him?

Does it bother you that he has and is touching him something you want to do?

I take it he is thinking and processing things.

I may be completely wrong on this next statement but just read it and see if anything I say fits your situation.

My guess he is getting close to giving up. Not because of you, but because he cannot see a way to be the H he thinks you need. He cannot see why you would love him given all he has tried and failed at. And I would guess he thinks any contact you have with him is "pity" for him on your part.



I know you are not happy, but is it with him or with yourself? Is this really about the marriage? Deep down is your unhappiness really about this marriage and your H or is it something deep within you that is working on you from the inside?

I am clearly not a counselor or trained in psych. type stuff, but it seems from this vantage point, the "stuck" you feel is because this is like something caught in your throat that you cannot seem to get out. If you could THEN you could focus on your family and marriage. THEN you would not be struggling so, and could see your H there.

I don't know.

I am not sure I will be around much the rest of the week. All of the kids are home for Christmas and life gets crazy around here. I love it of course.

I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas Nowis.

BCB, Ears, and anyone else reading here, I wish you all the blessing of this season.

God Bless,

JL

JL, happy holidays to you, too!

I do not have any answers for this Nowis. I agree with JL that I think he is locked in the throws of frustration. Running out of ideas. It is time to get help from the Harleys as suggested.

However this may be premature as I do believe there are issues brewing in you that need resolution.

Before we can love someone else we need to learn to love ourselves. Have you reached that place yet Nowis? I know that is something I am having to learn. All the traits and patterns I learned growing up about how to be a man lead me in the wrong direction. I thought a man had to be tough and capable, tenderness was for wimps. My father believed in the military model of child rearing.

There is alway hope. For me the way I see to health is to follow the biblical pattern of manhood. With Gods help I will get there. It has been an amazing time for me as I discover the depth of Gods love. I knew this intellectually before, but now God is opening my heart. I am finally for the first time feeling emotions like I have never done in 53 years. All I can say is I had to get to the end of myself and ask God for help. God has been faithful in answering my prayers. I take much hope and inspiration in "If ye seek ye will find". In my case this is true. I lived most of my life independent of God, relying on my own strength and ideas, treating God as as sideline issue not the main issue. My separation has been very difficult, were it not for God I do not think I would have made it. I have learned that prayer works.

Nowis my heart goes out to you. These are difficult times. There are no majic bullets I can offer you. Ask God to reveal to you what your next step is.

God Bless

Ears

I hear what you are saying. For me divorce/separation seems so attractive from the point of view that I can stop thinking about the M. I could stop trying and caring. Just be quiet, just be on my own. Deceptive, I know.


In all of his jobs he has traveled. He manages all of this European company's USA operations - he's the top guy. I learned to accept, very early in our marriage, that's what he does. When the children were small it was much harder. My H had to learn to keep in touch with them whilst away and 'plug' back into them when he was home. When he's away now he still calls to speak to the children most days (time zones allowing). He misses us and home. I know that's not the case for a lot of people.

We're just trying to change the relationship in other ways.

BCB,


As did mine, BCB! But, I also learned some other things about the military model that don't seem to be common.

My father and mother believed in delegating authority. My Mom RAN the home. They together disciplined my siblings and I. They had expectations we had to meet, and because my father was in the military it was made very clear that our behavior reflected on him.

I grew up with that. My Dad and I were not friends. He felt a parent should not be a child's friend. He wanted me very independent and capable. He taught me about banking, money, and even computing compound interest by the time I was about 10.

Years later I found out why. I, as the oldest, was his insurance. If he died, I was the one that would have to help my mother. When he did die, his last request of me is that I make sure my mother was well taken care of. She is 86 now, and that is what I am doing.

But, I learned other things from him, when I became an adult. I learned he had fears, he worried alot. He thought he was not a good father, never mind the fact that all of us kids have advanced degrees and all of us have been married between 30 and 40 years, my younger sibling is 14 years younger than I. My point, the military model isn't that bad.

I will also say that although he was a combat pilot, and he flew in 3 wars and numerous other "engagements", he is the one that taught me to love poetry and Shakespeare. Although his experiences with Chaplains in combat made him have a deep distain for ministers, he was a very spiritual man.

I did not learn all of this until I was an adult and some it only upon his passing over 20 years ago.

My point, perhaps you need to rethink your "military model" as you glean deeper understanding of who you are and how you come to be this person. Sometimes, we restrict ourselves far more than "the model" ever really would have us do. I don't know, just a suggestion.

BCB, it sounds as if this trip has been very very good for you. I still hope that somehow your W will wake up, but I think you have done yourself a huge favor by seeking yourself in this path you are following. I think you will be a very powerful person when the trip is done.

God Bless,

JL

And stop being rejected, ignored, hurt. I know the feeling! That's why I've been trying to encourage you to find some UA time and FC time together. Because the hurt can stop, today. Drastic action isn't the only option. A lot of folks here on the board have had great results from the MB ideas without huge crises in their marriages, like Stella. The marriage can be the soft place ot fall, not the source of the problems. Like JL says, the marriage can be the solution for the issues.

You mentioned that he calls the kids. Do you two talk several times a day when he's away? Do you two like talking on the phone?

JL

Glad you are well and the family is regrouping for the holidays.

Yes, I think this is true. I totally understand and it was bound to happen. I guess I just don't know what to do with it. In a way, I'm surprised it has taken this amount of time for him to stop. I don't know what to do with it anyway. Just let it go and let him do what he needs to. Afterall, I've pretty much destroyed things anyway.

JL, I woke up this morning and thought to myself I knew where I was at for better or for worse, good and bad, 3/4 years ago. Now I am an empty shell. My H asked how I was this morning and that's what I told him. I'm out of ideas. He said maybe this is a good time me being empty and perhaps only God can help. Maybe I'm truly looking at the end of myself. I don't know what to do with it. I said to God if he's got any ideas to just go ahead and let me know - I'm out.

Well, thanks for stopping by.

Have a lovely Christmas and maybe we'll share in the New Year.

BCB

Perhaps I am closer to this than I realized. I'm still [censored] footing around with the idea of God actually helping me. Guess there's only one way to find out.

Interestingly enough, all the traits you were told were manly; tough, capable, tenderness was for wimps, is kind of how I learned to cope with life. No room for tears or weakness. So learning to feel emotions, like you, would be good.

Anyway, I wish you a wonderful Christmas and hope and love in abundance in 2009.

NOwis,

You said
I read this and smiled. I think God has an idea and he gave to you years ago. You are just about ready to actually see what you have been given. I only hope you figure it out before the old saying comes true.
I still think you are looking for your H and your marriage to solve issues you have from before your marriage. I still think you blaming your marriage for your lack of happiness, rather than seeing it could be the source of your happiness.

BUT...you are going to have to see this, no one can make you see things you don't see and have trained yourself not to see.

You also said
What he NEEDS and wants to do, is LOVE YOU. You have not destroyed everything. Your H has been far stronger than you have ever seen or admitted to. You are the one hiding, and he blames himself. I suspect he KNOWS why he is/was in your life. He was sent to help you, be your H, and be strong for you. But, he is worried that he has failed.

All he needs is for you to once look into his eyes and see who this man you married really is. All he needs is for once to see tears in your eyes and have you come to him so he can hold you. All he needs is for you to realize he is NOT a wimp and that just maybe he was and is exactly the man you need.

He does not need an "independent" wife, but he also does not need or want a "dependent" wife. He simply wants a woman that can handle herself, but allows him into her life, allows him to see the times when she needs a boost. Allows him to love her. And yes it would be nice if you loved him as well, but oddly I think he would settle for you allowing him to love you. He has the strength to handle the one sidedness of this. He has done it for years.

I am reminded of the story/joke told here many times. Perhaps you have heard it. A man is in a big flood. He his in the second story of his house and a man comes by with a motor boat and offers to rescue him. The man turns him down saying that "God will provide for him." The water rises and the man is now on his roof. A helicopter comes over and a rescuer shouts down with a bull horn, to grab the harness and they will rescue him. He tells them "no thanks, God will provide for me." Eventually he drowns and goes to heaven where he meets God, and he asks "why did you forsake me during the flood?" God replies "who do you think sent the boat and the helicopter?"

My point, we often over look the gifts we have been given because they don't come as we expect them to come. You have an image of what a "real" man is and you have condemned your H because he did not fit that image. Yet, he is far stronger than the "real" men you picture in your head. Your H is far stronger than your father or the other men in your family. BUT, he does not come packaged to show this strength.

YET...you have seen his strength. You have seen his love. You have seen the offspring of your marriage and they are good children aren't they?

Nowis, all he needs to see is your open arms and your acceptance of who he is. But, as BCB so clearly pointed out, you also need to see who you are, that is the mystery, not who your H is.

I do think your comment and your H's response is very telling.
Isn't it time you filled that "empty shell" with love, care, compassion and friendship? Isn't it time you filled it with family and friends? Isn't it time for you to look at your children and see the gift they are? Isn't it time for you to realize you have been given and been blessed far more than you have appreciated? Isn't time for you to realize you are a better person than you give yourself credit for and that your H sees these things even if you don't?

You say "I don't know what to do with it." And again I smile. You don't have to "DO" anything. You simply have to learn to appreciate and accept what you have been given. Your children love you because of who you are. Your H loves you because of who you are. Isn't it about time you accepted the fact that you are loved, appreciated, and wanted? You don't have to "do" anything but realize that they are right and all they need from you is for you to accept their love and them into your life.

You have been fighting to keep your H out of your life for many years. I would guess out of fear, but what do you have to fear? H knows he is supposed to be with you and I think he knows God had something to do with it. Isn't time you realized these things? I think it is.


Don't "DO" anything this Christmas, just accept and enjoy. There is a post in the General Discussion section, about why old timers keep posting on this site. I would like you to read my response. I think it is time you believed in Santa Claus Nowis. The spirit of Santa Claus exists and I think it is time you realized it exists in you as well.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Here is a hint. Often the biggest gift is given by accepting the gift.

PSS: Here is Pomdbd3's post about remaining on this site. Pomdbd3

Are you talking the leap of faith here? This journey is not for the faint hearted, but I can already see it is soooooo worth it. Crisis is the opportunity for change. Change is not easy and usually resisted, but that old caterpillar changes into something more beautiful, we can too.

You will need help on this journey. Faith, forgiveness, repentance, love, prayer, reading scripture, will become your companions if you are serious. I am discovering Gods patterns and principals through his Word (scripture) so I can stop swimming against the current and understand the path to freedom. You like I have to learn about how precious and valued you are, in Gods eyes.


All I can say to this is it is a lie that I believed and fashioned my life on. This puts up barriers that prevents us from living life, I insulated myself from life and emotion. But I am finding out how gracious and merciful God has been to me. I am off my depression meds and He has been guiding me, I am experiencing emotions and life like I never have before. God is blessing me, and I now realize as I draw closer to Him there is such and abundance in Him.

I have been blessed with some great mentors who have been there to encourage and guide me in my spiritual walk. I have people who are praying for me. I have people praying with me. I have developed relationships with mature Christians that I can call for counsel and prayer. I cannot comprehend how much I have been blessed.

Gods design of the the Christian community is such that we are to be interdependent. No lone rangers. God knew what he was doing to arrange it so we need to depend on each other, it keeps us humble. We need wise leaders to guide us, to teach us. God is merciful, loving, forgiving, but we need to know He is also jealous. He will not stand by and watch us stray from Him, there are consequences for disobedience. That is what drew me back. I was willful, prideful, I was disobedient to what God instructs us to do. This is the nature of sin, I am a sinner (disobedient to Gods direction) saved by grace (Gods grace). I do not deserve the grace I have been given but I rejoice that He gave it to me. I am grateful for how God is molding, pruning me. I do not enjoy the pruning (it is painful changing) but I am starting to see the results and I like that.

I am so thankful that my Brothers in Christ have helped me through this time. I so enjoy being in fellowship with fellow believers as we find many opportunities to discuss the challenges we face, and we encourage one another, edify one another. It is a great system. I rejected it because I thought I should be able to do it on my own. I can't. I have discovered I need the continued fellowship, sharing, and encouragement. Very similar to what we do here.

I have said it before and I will say it again "God is knocking" on your door.

I have a suggestion for you. Go to your husband and request that he pray for you. Make sure you pray with each other every day, for 40 days (I stole that from my friend, who stole that from the movie Fireproof - I still want to see it). Go find a church who believes in the power of prayer. Ask the pastor who heads up the prayer group and get them to start praying for you. In the last two months I have become convinced that prayer is very powerful. The scripture tells us what ever we ask, believing, in My Name (Jesus) according to His Word (the Bible) it shall be done. This is very powerful stuff. I can tell you it has been working for me and there is no reason it would not work for you (I don't have and exclusive on this). God has a philosophy - Y'all come now ya hear!

Keep seeking Nowis - You will find. He does love you ya know!

God Bless and Merry CHRISTmas

JL
Thank you for your response to the Military Model. I stand corrected and I should not have used that reference. I guess I was looking at the negative side being command and control, without the instruction or mentoring like you received. My Dad was a good man, and honest man. He just was not around much but when he was it was his way or the high way.

I like your model better.

It is nice to hear from you again.

God Bless and Merry Christmas.

BCB,

Believe me, I understand "my way or the highway". I lived that as well. My father was gone alot either. He flew all over the world. When I left home I was on my own as my family lived in Europe while I was in the States going to college. There was no flying back and forth and surely no phones. My father commissioned me into the military and an odd thing happened. We were father and son, but we became friends.

My father had a very narrow perspective on people: they could either do the job or they could not. If they could do the job, he wanted them in his command. No one else need apply. But, that also meant he was pretty color blind, religion blind, background blind, accent blind, it did not matter. Could you do the job or not? That is all that mattered.

My guess BCB is that with the wisdom of age and life, you can look back now and still learn a great deal from your Dad. As I learned what motivated my father, what he thinking was, and how he viewed the world, I started to learn about myself and the world in a whole different view.

He taught me something I tell people on this site. He explained to me that "fear and greed" were the great motivators and if I thought he was talking about money I needed to open my mind. He also taught me "friends come and go, but enemies accumulate". One of my favorite sayings because it cautions one to make ones enemies wisely.

BCB I feel I failed in what I said because you "stand corrected". I was not trying to correct you, I simply stating my experience with the "military" approach to child rearing. You are younger than I by a decade or so, but the model for men in those days was bring home the pay, and be somewhat distant from your children with discipline being the major household role.

My things sure have changed.

God Bless,

JL

JL
Thanks
In no way was I offended. I appreciate what you shared. I suppose I regret not really knowing my father. He died when I was 24 he was 61. He was a hard worker. Held many public offices in our small town, volunteered etc. The folks in the community thought he was a good man. At his funeral the church could not hold all the people, yet they stayed in the parking lot to pass on their respects to my Mom. I regret not knowing him. It was not my choice but you are so right when you say things were different then.

One thing I did learn from his was responsibility, honesty, honour, and trust. He had a hard life financially and that created a lot of fear for me around money issues. I am learning to deal with that now. I can loosen my grip, I am learning to trust that God has a plan. I am learning to listen.

JL I think you know I appreciate your willingness to share your thoughts and I know you help a lot of people through your experience. Keep up the good work.

May you and your family have a blessed Christmas.

BCB,

We will BCB. Christmas is my W's and I favorite time. It offers soo much. It becomes more important as one's children grow up and start out on their own. This is likely to be the last Christmas that all of us will be together at the same time. Children getting married and such.

I am sorry you lost your Dad when you were so young. I think you were just entering the "prime" time for fathers and sons to actually start to understand one another. I suspect you know what I mean given the ages of your children.

You have a Merry Christmas my friend.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I know what you mean about money issues. Our fathers grew up with the depression and the messages were very clear to us concerning money and financial security.