Hi JL

I was not "in-love" at all with the OM. I was very attracted to certain traits about him that my H did not exhibit. I was in WW drama but knew, without doubt, this guy was not a good person.


It is for lack of effort on my H's part. My H I will having me back, after the affair was supremely loving and forgiving on his part. However, as he freely admits, he didn't put much effort into working at the marriage. He loves me the way I am and he wanted his quiet, undisturbed life back. He would want to just fix me if I was unhappy (it couldn't possibly be due to him). I helped this thinking and way of life by not being honest and saying the things that I was unhappy with. We were just not honest with each other. We had set this marriage up this way from day one due to our personal and FOO issues. His needs, for the most part, apart from SF and respect were not being met.

In the last couple of days we have talked and my H is really trying to understand what I need. I told him that I was lonely (partly because I exhibited self-sufficient behavior, stiff upper lip and partly because he never spent time with me). Years of old patterns of behavior. My love bank is not full because I haven't been telling him what I need because I have to get rid of my bad habit of shutting him out and because he doesn't take time time to meet my ENs. He said to me he doesn't want much more from me - he thinks I'm great(?!?). He would like a lot more sex and for me to cuddle with him more and to not shut him out.

I am trying to understand myself. I have noticed over these last couple of months that I work to get his needs met, SF and not shutting myself off. However, my frustration comes because I don't feel any different. What is wrong with me? It should be easier by now? What key thing am I not doing? I am putting love into action, SF etc. Changing my perspective - I try to monitor this like a hawk. So what's up with that? Could this be that I'm not helping myself getting my ENs met? What am I doing wrong?


Can you please explain the independent behavior? Is that my habit of shutting down and not sharing how I feel? With all your help and since August, my perception of a manly man has change and still changing. You can't get more of a man than a guy who forgives and loves his W for the appalling things she did. I view him in a different light on that and respect him so much. I respect that he is working on himself too. How do I change this respect to passion and SF? Where am I 'off'?

I have the real deal, with some work, but I'm still floundering? Can you see where?

Thanks for sticking with me even though I am "thorny"..... : )

Ears

Thanks for sticking with me.

Spot on Ears!


This is not a problem. If anything, I need to work on this aspect of affection - cuddling, and more SF. He also said today that I need to ask him more about his work (not just discuss his work problems) instead of being consumed with the children.

Cat

Thanks for this.

He generally doesn't want to schedule time for me each week but is coming round to it since I told him I was lonely. We are spending time with each other this week which has been really great so far. We haven't done this since before the children were born apart from the odd weekend away.

I will stick with it because I am discovering it's a big need for me to have the one on one attention.

Nowis,

You said
My guess is that he will respond as you open up and tell him what you need. Your perspective will start to change further, and it has changed as you point out to Cat about what "manly" is.

Oddly, what you really seem to need is not found in the stereotypical "manly" man. You need one on one, conversation, and yes a list of needs.

I think I posted this to you before but perhaps not. Years ago on this board, there was a woman complaining that her H never bought her anything for her birthday, anniversary. She explained he hated to shop.

Several of us suggest she make a complete list of things she would like for birthdays, anniversary, and Christmas as it was coming up. She responded that if she did that it wouldn't really be a present and he would feel he HAD to buy an item for her. We countered he still could avoid buying her anything, but actually she would not know what was in the present as he would have a long list to choose from. After much discussion back and forth she made the list and gave it to him.

Along comes Christmas and guess what? As we told her he would, he bought her a present. He was very proud of himself and we all smiled knowingly at ourselves. But, then she continued, he also bought her another present, and another present, and another present.

In fact, he bought her everything she had listed...she WAS SURPRISED. She asked him why he did it. His answer: " I always wanted to buy you things but I didn't know what you really liked as you have returned things I bought before. Further, I don't have time to shop, so when you gave me the list I was very happy. I knew what you wanted, I had no trouble buying them because I did not have to shop. I like to see you get what you want."

Nowis, I think you don't understand the power you have to make your H happy, by allowing him to make you happy. You assume that his response is do to lack of caring. I assume his lack of meeting your needs is because he needs the list of what and how to meet your needs. He needs details.

I asked you what your needs were and you have not told me. You are
If you didn't know, how would he know. Make your shopping list NOwis, even a busy man can make schedules for what needs and ought to be done. As for shopping, us guys are pretty bad most of the time. Oh, and make SF fun and good for you as well. Tell him exactly what you like, what you want and how to do it. \

God Bless,

JL

Nowis, thanks so much for clarifying. It really helps me understand that advice a lot better.

When you had the hard time together, it was in discussing the EN questionnaire, right? Did that ENQ help you with the list that JL describes? I get you that the things that you needed were not obvious to you, so that you could express them. Is it more clear now? Could you share them here?

Hi Nowis
Just checking in to see how things are going. I have been reading the responses since your vacation and one thing strikes me. This is really not about your marriage. This is about you. It sounds like you need to do some work to find out what makes you comfortable in your own skin. Another person cannot fill the void with in us. They can provided friendship, love, companionship, support, care, conversation etc.... But when we have a void in our lives we often want to blame someone else for how we feel. Others do not have that much power over us. This issues that need work on are within you.

I hope you are able to find the peace and contentment you seek.

God Bless you and your family.

BCB

Hope all is well in Mexico.

I'm not really sure why you said what you said. I've worked on myself a lot my whole life. Working through my issues etc. I generally know what makes me happy. There are a lot of things I can do to make myself happy. However, in this case, I'm working on my M which has been skewed for a long time. So what do you mean?

Nowis, now I'm confused again. I'm glad you're patient with me. If you know what makes you happy, then wouldn't you know what you want from your H? Like, if you like to do family things, you can tell your H, and you can do those things together, if he likes them, too.

Hi Ears

Below is the result of our ENs questionnaire

1. Affection
2. Family Commitment
3. Conversation
4. Financial Support
5. Sexual Fulfillment

His:

1. Affection
2. Honesty and Openness
3. Attractive Spouse
4. Sexual Fulfillment
5. Family Commitment

I remember it was difficult because it just seemed to aggravate things. We were both defensive as I remember and my H was focusing on our different we were. We didn't go on to talk in terms of our we could meet each others needs. It was an 'off' night.

I've been wondering about my needs. I know I need affection and know that my H having shown me affection over the years has softened me. My natural reaction was to forego it (FOO issues). I need family commitment because we have one! Also because I fear my children not having their Dad in their lives (I didn't - it's awful). Conversation is important to me - it's my communication and validation that I'm alive and worth listening too. Financial support - I'm very grateful for it and my H has a strong sense of caring for his family with it. I know what it is to be without money and I couldn't imagine fighting over it. Sexual Fulfillment is something I desire (maybe not need?). Why is it important to me? ooh I'm not sure?!

So, when I look at that list and wonder why things are still not right, it is difficult to answer. Are most of our emotional needs based on fear? Is that actually who I am or is it just a sum of my fears? Is that how it works with everyone? The need to have them met so I don't live in fear, the past, insecurity?

I guess the work comes in the details of how and in what way do I want those needs to be met. I also have to meet my H's needs too.



I think it's more that there are some things that I needed but felt that I could not express that I wanted them because a) was I right in wanting these things? Was it not selfish of me? b) if I asked my H for them, maybe he wouldn't be happy about it or put under pressure, or think of me as a selfish person? Both my H and I had this dialogue in our heads about each other. So, now we are learning to be open, honesty and not assume what each of us is thinking or feeling. To not be afraid to say things are not working for us.

Hi Ears



I thought BCB was talking about me personally not my M.

I have done a lot to make myself happy in spite of my M. I have learned new things, tried new jobs, reading, worked out, yoga, learned about art/artists, friendships, dancing, visited new places etc etc. All these things make me happy - I love doing them.

As for my H I have been struggling with why my relationship with him wasn't fulfilling me. What wasn't I getting from him, or allowing myself to get from him?

So, this week he has had the week off as you know. We have a great time together. We popped into the library as he was looking for a particular book and I needed some new reading material. He came across a book on CD and thought we should listen to it. I was apprehensive as felt for a moment that I could drown if I read another self-help book - but then thought what the heck! and it's on CD. Have you ever read this book?

"Receiving Love, Transform your Relationship by Letting yourself be Loved" by Harville Hendrix, Phd and Helen LaKelly Hunt Phd. Authors of Getting the Love you Want and the originators of Imago Therapy.

We have listened to it (not come to the end yet) on our journeys - it's been amazingly insightful so far.

Nowis,

Good, keep listening and talking with your H about what you are hearing.

God Bless,

JL

Hey NOWIS

Sorry for the confusion from my previous post. I commend you for the actions and activities with your husband. I guess I still have some hang over from the FOO issues and the training you recieved under your mother regarding trust. I guess one of the images I have is you and your husband are on this tandam bicycle called marriage. You are riding with an injured leg. The motion of the pedals is painful for you. You got this injured leg prior to your marriage and you got on this tandam bike because it looked like a safe ride and would take you places. You were right, it was safe and it has taken you places, but you are still injured. And your husband cannot fix it for you.

I guess I have been dancing around this issue as I do not know how to address the way of addressing the old wounds. As a Christian I have a concern that this issue has a spiritual root and I am not sure if this is the appropriate arena to address this. But there are ways to be free from these past hurts and issues that cast a shadow over your marriage

I hope you will one day have that sense of complete freedom and joy. You have come a very long way since the start of your journey. I am impressed with your commitment and the steps you and your husband are taking. Your persistence is paying off.

God Bless you and your family

Wow, Nowis, I am so glad that you are finding solutions that are helping! I haven't read that book, but I have read Harville Hendrix's Getting the Love you Want, and it was great, too.

JL, EO and BCB

We are nearly at the end of the CDs. Will let you know what we gleaned from it all.

The key thing that they are saying now is; in order to receive the love and relationship that you want, you have to love the thing you most hate/dislike in your spouse. By doing this, you then being to deal with and heal the hurts and issues in yourself. By doing this, you will then be able to receive the love and M you have always dreamed of! It is primarily about healing yourself. Often the traits you dislike in your partner are the things that are connected to your FOO issues etc.

I've made that very simplistic but I hope you get the gist.

It also gives you examples of couples and their relationships and childhood histories, step by step tools and dialogues (having identified communication styles) and so far, how to 'talk' to each other and stay open.

Oooh, another quote he said (which both H and I liked) (something like this) was that Marriage was a place to find healing. Healing first and then happiness later. Not vice versa. As a result of finding healing within the relationship of marriage, intimacy would then come about, and therefore lead to a 'happy marriage'.

Interesting? Make sense?

Nowis,

I suppose it does. I would also say, that your fear to express in detail what you want from your H is also part of this. Often us guys need a road map, and actually so do women, although you will never get them to admit that.

If you now go back and read Harley's articles on radical honesty, the policy of joint agreement, and his four rules for a good marriage, I think you will connect with those concepts differently given what you and your H have learned.

I will also go back to the "love" you promised your H. It was not a "feeling" it was actions. You could tie this to a marriage being a place of healing rather than a place were you "feel" good. Although if you heal, and you love and are loved, it is hard not to "feel" good. You just never promised to have "in-love" feelings or produce "in-love" feelings in your spouse. You simply promised to love them, as in the action to love, and to love someone means to want to have them healed among other things.

I have no doubt if you went to your H and said "H I am sick, could you help me, and take care of me, he would in a heart beat." I also think if you felt your were in mortal danger, he would gladly give his life to protect you and your family. Nowis those are actions of love.

You want to "feel" certain things, but you cannot "feel" them, you must KNOW them. You have issues from your childhood. Your H cannot remove them, but those issues make you need to feel/BE safe emotionally, physically, etc. He can do that as soon as you realize he wants you emotionally strong and safe as well as physically safe.

I think the other thing you said This couples with the concept that you can only change yourself, not your spouse. However, there is a nonlinear aspect to this where if you change so does he.

Again, I recommend that you go read those few articles I listed and I believe you will see them with new eyes. After you have done that come back and we will discuss "needs". I think you and your H's list are consistent with what I have heard from you for a long time, but now details must be added, very much like the gift list.

I look forward to hearing from you. Oh! one last major question. How do you and your H feel about what you have just learned? Does it resonate with both of you? Did it get you two talking and discussing plans for addressing what you have learned? Are you enthusiastic, is he?

God Bless,

JL

JL

I went back and read the articles as you suggested - The Policy of Radical Honesty (emotional honesty was the one that stood out to me), The Policy of Joint Agreement and Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. It does confirm what we are listening to on the cds. I read them again with a better understanding of relationships.

Our natural reactions (or long held habits/patterns) are still to not share our feelings honestly for fear of upsetting the apple cart and all the reactions Harley mentions. Listening to the cds has made it possible to share immediately and not back down.


I am still blown away at how my childhood experience has had a pernicious affect on me to this day. Quite subtle in ways. My H understands this for himself too. It makes us show up for our children, that's for sure!



This philosophy and methods offered to receiving love do give hope for the relationship. We have interjected and shared with each other whilst listening to the cds and afterwards. Anything that we can relate to our life experiences, feelings and the marriage we have shared. Yes, I would definitely say that it has resonated with us.

My H, so far, has been impressed by the whole thing. He thinks it all makes a tremendous amount of sense. Although I agree, I always have hesitation. The proof is in the eating right? I also had a couple of days over the weekend where I felt downright angry. Couldn't figure that out. JL, there is a block in my gut (that's the only way I can describe it. It has frustration and anger around it and sometimes it just surfaces). Odd, I know. I've had it my whole life.

We have 3 cds (out of 11) to yet listen to. He went back to work and we haven't had a moment since(?!)

Nowis,

If I were a shrink I would jump on this
Yup, FOO issues. You fear, you are frustrated, and you are in pain, and it shows up as anger. Normal, anger is a secondary emotion driven by primary ones such as: fear, anxiety, pain, frustration, etc. If you still see your counselor, please relate this to him/her, I think this is worth drilling down on. I suspect you fear commiting because you fear the pain of it failing. I would guess you fear your H will fail you, but also that you will fail you. Yet, it is really the other way around. You are strong, your H is strong, and there is love between you.

I wish I were skilled enough to really help you.

I am glad you went back and read the articles, often times picking up other information stated differently makes something you have seen before seem different and seen in a new manner.

Hang in there Nowis, you will get there.

God Bless,

JL

Well, I went on to finish listening to the CDs by myself and they basically ended with working on yourself (exercises) and dialogue with your partner. I identified an overwhelming coping mechanism of mine which is to shut down and withdraw. My H has not listened to the remainder of the cds. He is still working on things with himself. He does not want me to fake anything anymore. Just to be myself. I have asked him what he would like from me and the marriage and he doesn't really say anything. I asked him what I could do for him and help him with... nothing.

So, am not really sure, what's going on. If he doesn't want anything from me after all this and all this time, no aspirations, no desires, what do I do?

I'm asking myself if I'm just trying too hard?

I think he just hasn't reached a level of awareness yet that he needs to be able to feel what he feels, and verbalize it.

I'd just keep working on becoming your true self, while watching out for signs from him.

Okay Cat

I will just be 'quiet' and wait for him. It triggers me though - I think "Who is this guy that seemingly just doesn't do/want anything?".