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Now Mel you know I wouldn't treat Aussie too harshly..  I just gave him that 'look' - you know the one - when he put that stupid smile on his dial and told him 'Go to bed' "Yes (burp) honey" meek as a lamb  AND he stinks of Irish whiskey mixed with the burnt smell of freakin cigars....... male bonding Ahhhh ..... the romance of married life :RollieEyes: well I guess he doesn't make a habit of it much these days ... I suppose its not MB to tell him he was leading his sons astray???  oh ... yes well I guess they didn't need too much leading. :MrEEk: Is that a chain saw or a steam train?? No ... its AUSSIE 
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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Forgiveness can be offered to the WS, but if she rejects it in the same fashion she rejects her BH, then what good does it do?
We can only be WILLING to forgive. But for forgiveness to really work, to really have any meaning, the one to whom forgiveness is offered has to value that forgiveness, agree that what she did was wrong and accept that what they did was hurtful towards the person offering forgiveness.
It's been my experience, both personally and by reading other accounts here, that most WW (or WH, but I know more about WW than WH's) think that what they did was perfectly OK, so they don't value that forgiveness.
Why else would so many WW simply end their marriages, rather than end their affairs and work on the marriage?
Forgiveness IS a process, I do agree with that. However, it's not a one person process. The one whom we seek to forgive must accept and value that forgiveness, otherwise it's simply wasted effort.
It's little different from meeting another person's emotional needs. If it's not the right thing, if it's not valued by the recipient, then it's just wasted effort.
The same is true when dealing with a wayward. If there is no remorse on the part of the wayward, forgiveness is meaningless to them.
The recipient has to think they've done something wrong for forgiveness to have any meaning. It appears most wayward spouses don't believe what they've done is wrong.
I do believe if they ask for forgiveness, it should be given, as holding a grudge does nothing.
But on the other hand, if they never ask, I think one should be willing to forgive, but not just wipe the slate clean.
For those who would offer God forgives, that is true. But there is NO instance where there is not a price paid. Repentance must take place, even with God.
Why would it be any different for us? This thread has discussed forgiveness in 2 different situations: one in which the WS is truly seeking reconciliation and one in which the WS isn't/hasn't (probably still involved in the A). I do believe that forgiveness is essential for healing (marital & personal) in either case and that forgiveness is a gift primarily for yourself. Others may disagree but IMO forgiveness offered to a WS who does not TRULY "value" it, is meaningless in some respects. It does serve the purpose of freeing the BS from damaging resentment and bitterness that can infect all other aspects of their life but it does not heal the mental wounding suffered at the hands of the WS--no relationship outside of basic civility is likely between the two of them. What does it mean for a WS to "value" forgiveness from the BS? IMO, it means: A ends/is ended NC in place WS realizes how important NC is WS is genuinely remorseful and empathetic towards the pain the BS feels HUMILTY TRUTH ADMISSION OF WRONGDOING ACCEPTANCE OF PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY REPENTANCE My xWW has written me saying "I am sorry for many things and I ask for your forgiveness..." I WILL forgive her to myself and with God but I WILL NOT forgive her TO HER. Why? Because she has expressed no sense of valueing my forgiveness. She has not ended the R with the OM, she has not specifically admitted anything (much less being "wrong"), she has not demonstrated responsibility, remorse, repentance, or believable empathy for the pain she has inflicted. I get the feeling that she has only asked for "forgiveness" as a means to validate what she has done and is doing. She just wanted my approval and acceptance to assuage her own guilt...but she had/has no intention of taking that proverbial "long, hard look in the mirror". Sorry, WW, I will never forgive you TO YOUR FACE without all that....
xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
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SDCW I feel you are perfectly entitled to forgive that far and no further without your WS meeting your needs for this to happen.
And even if she met all or even exceeded your conditions for full forgiveness it may never lead to reconciliation ...
And though she may never admit it ... I bet you my last dollar that she will find the gloss coming off the A as every day living washes away the paper thin gilt like acid rain.
And of course she is not an XWS until she stops the W .... but may be an XW by then.
The main point here was to remind any BS who WONT forgive the dangers that may arise from that. And it is really interesting to discuss and see how people feel about forgiveness.
I always wonder how forgiving I would be if the shoe was on the other foot? Interesting huh?
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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SDCW I feel you are perfectly entitled to forgive that far and no further without your WS meeting your needs for this to happen.
And even if she met all or even exceeded your conditions for full forgiveness it may never lead to reconciliation ...
And though she may never admit it ... I bet you my last dollar that she will find the gloss coming off the A as every day living washes away the paper thin gilt like acid rain.
And of course she is not an XWS until she stops the W .... but may be an XW by then.
The main point here was to remind any BS who WONT forgive the dangers that may arise from that. And it is really interesting to discuss and see how people feel about forgiveness.
I always wonder how forgiving I would be if the shoe was on the other foot? Interesting huh? Aussie, I completely agree with you regarding a BS who WON'T forgive even when all the necessary elements are there...that is sheer madness IMHO. For the record, my WW is an xWW (legally) and a still active one at that (morally). I'm sure, in her twisted mind, her ongoing R with OM serves to reinforce how "right" her decisions and actions were for her. As for the "gloss coming off", I have heard grapevine rumors of that (she M the OM as soon as his 3rd D was finalized) but there has been no concrete action...not that it would matter much at this point. The email from her I referenced above took place this past summer subsequent to a long phone conversation she initiated in which there were a lot of: expressions of regret for her "hardheadedness", etc. longings for info on my family who loved her very much wishes to continue speaking to me, but.... NO true HONESTY, RESPONSILITY, or REPENTANCE Other than more tenderness, less hostility, and her guilt and sense of loss showing through, nothing CONCRETE had changed. I cut her off and reinforced that no communication or "relationship" (of any kind) was possible between the 2 of until she and OM were DONE & OVER. Seeking validation and approval from me is NOT the same as truly valueing forgiveness. 6 months later, there is nothing new and there has been no more contact. She will never receive overt forgiveness from me without repentance. I will do it on my own, but she will never know...
xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
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So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3 I think Dr. Harley's method of forgiveness is exactly in line with the Biblical standard of forgiveness, which is based on repentence, ie: turning away from our sin: From Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?Forgiveness is something I believe in with all my heart. I forgive others and have been forgiven many times. God wants us all to be forgiving just as he has forgiven us.
And, as you have noticed, when you don't forgive someone, it can "eat you up." It's not healthy to keep resentment bottled up inside of you.
The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.
First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.
But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.
To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.
I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.
In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money. This is the Message version of the Scripture you quoted above from Luke. Notice the last verse. 3-4"Be alert. If you see your friend going wrong, correct him. If he responds, forgive him. Even if it's personal against you and repeated seven times through the day, and seven times he says, 'I'm sorry, I won't do it again,' forgive him." I will clarify my statement before as well. Similar to a situation mentioned by another MB poster, my XW has continued the A until today. Worse yet, she has wrecked his family in addition to our family. For the purpose of dealing with her, I have forgiven her and moved on the best I can. I harbor no grudges, want no just compensation, etc. Of course, I am divorced, if I had still been there it would be different, I imagine. My point being that I feel you need to forgive in yourself to avoid the issue consuming you and eating you up. I just do not know if I could be the man I need to be for the kids and be consumed with the affair. In addition, I can not see into the heart of the person. Only the Lord can do that and judge true repentance. The only thing we can do is make our best assumption based on their outward behavior. I prefer to let the Lord be my judge and forgive as I have been forgiven. Forgetting and trusting is another story. As they say 'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me'
grindnfool
M-13 years
D-Day 10/26/06
Divorced 11.2007
DS-16, DD-9
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That's it grindnfool
so it does not keep "consuming you and eating you up."
And it may take a long time ... but that's ok too.
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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This is such an important subject, AW. 
A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb Neak's Story
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My point being that I feel you need to forgive in yourself to avoid the issue consuming you and eating you up. I just do not know if I could be the man I need to be for the kids and be consumed with the affair. grindfool, and I agree that you should not let resentment eat you up, that is entirely different from offering forgiveness to someone who doesn't want or need it. Forgiveness is what we offer to the other person; it was never intended to be an empty feel good measure for ourselves. We can eliminate grudges without that empty gesture. I think its important to remember God's standard of forgiveness and he does not forgive people against their will without repentence. That is the standard I use.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think its important to remember God's standard of forgiveness and he does not forgive people against their will without repentence. That is the standard I use. Melody, Isn't this God's standard in these verses as well? "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14,15) "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, God forgave you." (Ephesians 4:32) To me, forgiving others is a prerequisite to be forgiven by the Lord. Of course, the others are confession of my sins and repentance from those sins. True repentance and honest confession of sins are difficult to judge in others because you could not know the person's heart, only the Lord could. Therefore, it is not for me to judge this, it is for my Lord to do. Therefore, for my own salvation and sanity, it is better for me personally to practice forgiveness whether or not the other person knows this.
grindnfool
M-13 years
D-Day 10/26/06
Divorced 11.2007
DS-16, DD-9
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grindinfool, God's standard is to forgive those who SEEK IT when they repent. He does not force his forgiveness on those who do not want or seek it. He does not drag people into heaven against their will. He forgives those who seek it, and those who are repentant. That is the standard I use with others. Otherwise it is an empty feel good measure that only serves to make ME feel good.
Forgiveness is not supposed to be a selfish act to make ourselves feel better, but a way to reconcile ourselves to God and to our brother. That is the Biblical standard, that forgiveness is available, but on God's conditions, not ours.
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." Luke 17:3-4
Luke 24:46-48 (New International Version)
46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I think for me its two levels of forgiveness ... I sometimes feel its a limitation of the English language ... Its almost as if we need a number of separate words to describe the different forms of forgiveness doesn't it? However the point being is .... the difference between willing to forgive ... though you may not yet be ready or able too - and being UNWILLING to no matter what. The conscious choice to decide you WON"T forgive is harmful in the end to YOU. Or as Aussie so elegantly puts it.. Don't let the [censored] win 
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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However the point being is .... the difference between willing to forgive ... though you may not yet be ready or able too - and being UNWILLING to no matter what. I agree with this and believe it is God's standard. God is WILLING to forgive us when we repent, but it is on HIS terms, not ours. He doesn't force his forgiveness on the bank robber who is robbing a bank to make Himself feel good. He doesn't pass out unwanted forgiveness to people who don't want or need it. Many people REJECT the offer of his gift and are not forgiven. But he is willing. Just as I am willing to forgive anyone on the same terms. I think the confusion lies in the belief that one must offer forgiveness in order to RELEASE a grudge, and that is not the case. They are mutually exclusive actions. I can release a grudge without forgiveness and I can forgive a person and NOT release my grudge. One can be done without the other.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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well I try to live up to the ideal on forgiveness ... haven't reached sainthood by any means For me catholic Dogma says ... The obligation of forgiveness, even of our enemies, is fundamental to the new law of charity instituted by Our Divine Savior. We all have heard many times of Our Lord’s response to St. Peter’s question: "Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times? Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times" (Mt. 18:21-22). We constantly pray in the Our Father that God might forgive us, as we forgive those who trespass against us (Mt. 6:12). We know that regardless of the insults directed against us, we must pray for our persecutors, as Our Lord himself did on the Cross: "Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you" (Mt. 5:44).That is hard to live up to. I have great trouble forgiving those who shot my H and SIL ........ MMMM I wonder if I won't forgive now? Got me thinking now ... drats WHO BROUGHT UP THIS DARN SUBJECT? :RollieEyes:
Life may feel as if you are constantly getting kicked on a daily basis, living is about picking yourself up each day and going on and on and on regardless.
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WHO BROUGHT UP THIS DARN SUBJECT? :RollieEyes: you did, you silly foreigner!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There ya go ... hoisted on my own petard ... and you had to remind me Mel ...... ....... but thats ok ... ............. .............. .................. ....................... I forgive you Mel
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You know how the saying goes "forgive but not forget" well, how about "forget but not forgive".
I think I am coming to the point where I am just going to forget about my WH affair. You know not think about it anymore. I am getting to the point where I am done with him. I dont want it to eat me up inside so I will just have the feeling of indifference. He doesnt want me. He is still having the A. So I am done thinking about him or his A.
But I cannot forgive. He never asked for it. He is still having A. How can I forgive him. He doesnt yet realize the true damage that he has done and is STILL doing. He continues his selfishness. When you go to confession at church you dont (I think) ask for forgiveness and then know you are going right out to do it again when you leave. You ask for forgiveness and beleive that you are going to try your best not to do it again.
And WH may not ever end his affair or think he even did anything to be forgiven. Therefore i will NEVER forgive him. but I will forget and not let it eat me up and destroy me. JMHO
BW me-41 WH -39 DS - 9 married 12 Yrs together(?) 18 yrs when A discovered DDay aug 2007 found MB dec 2007 Moved out april 2008 still seeing OW Plan B Okay I fixed the ages, it was looking screwy. 
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