DD, there are 2 parts to this equation. One is you and your dad, one is you and your mom.

Between you and your dad, if you aren't ready to go dark on him, that's fine. Since you're aware that it's a good option for you if you need it, then carry on. Just keep close tabs on YOUR love bank, lol.

The other part between you and your mom....that is going to need some work.


It sounds as if you're ready to do your part. It's important that you follow your instincts on this.

I understand what your mom is trying to do. She wants you to feel free to talk to her about your feelings, without you having to worry about hurting hers. That much is good, and the two of you need to keep that line of communication open.

Where this is less than ideal is her wanting to know the details. (Plan A 1/2 - ROFL!) Your mom is going to need to stop asking for that. If she doesn't, please feel free to come on here and tattle.

Now a few words about the IM system.

How it's supposed to work:

Message goes from BW to IM's.
IM's filter it and send it to WH.
WH sends reply to IM's.
IM's filter and send needed info to BW.

That's the ideal, but if it doesn't work that way through the choices of the WH, oh well.

Message goes from BW to IM's.
IM's filter it and send it to WH.
WH either ignores it or sends an angry reply.
IM's say nothing to BW.

As hard as it may be to believe, the IM system is STILL WORKING. No matter whether the WH chooses to use it or not, it is still protecting the BW from having to deal with the garbage, and protecting her love against future recovery.

What is actually going on:

Message goes from BW to IM's.
IM's filter it and send it to WH.
WH either ignores it or sends an angry reply.
IM's say nothing to BW.
WH sends hostile messages through DD.
BW asks DD for hostile messages.
BW is very angry and loses love for WH.

The first two systems can work just fine for months or even years. The first job of the IM system is to protect the BW, the second job is to pass important info from the BW to the WH, and the very very optional part of this, is having vital information pass from the WH to the BW, ONLY if that info comes through the IM's. If it doesn't, oh well. The only person who suffers is the WH. Not anyone else's problemo.

I know you can see the flaw with the current system, and I think your mom is probably understanding, too. If your dad chooses not to use the IM system, fine. No biggie. What is unacceptable is him trying to use you instead.

As I see it, you have two options to get yourself out of the loop.

One is to stop letting him tell you the garbage he keeps saying. Make clear to him that you will not be passing on any messages, and then don't. If your mom begs you, tell her to give me a call, lol.

The other is if you would like to send the info to the IM's yourself. Then it isn't your job to filter it, and any needed info will still get through. (If you don't really have anyone else to talk to about stuff you can't ask your mom or vent about to her, feel free to email about that, too.)

Honestly, it doesn't matter which of those you choose, or even if you flip back and forth. The important part - protecting your mom - will be taken care of.

You're awesome!

Neak - very well put.

T2LDD - Every message your father sends through you is INTENDED TO HURT YOUR MOTHER.

Every time your mother asks you what he said, because she can tell you are hurt and angered by your father's actions and she wants to protect you, HE SUCCEEDS AT GETTING THE MESSAGE THRU which he knows wouldn't happen through the I/Ms.

He wants to hurt your mother - that's why he won't use the I/Ms.

So - do you want to be his dumping ground for his rage against your mother because she won't play his little three-some game?

You need your mother because she truly understands your loss - you've lost a good father. He is not there right now. He has been replaced by this impostor who looks like your father, but your father would never treat your mother so hatefully, would he?

Your mother wants to protect you from that impostor. That's why she asks what he said - not because she wants to know but because she's a mother. That's what mothers do. They would die for their kids if they could.

Please consider Plan B as a way of stopping your father from treating you like his emotional toilet, now that he can't treat your mother directly that way!

"So far my love for my father has not gone south quite yet!!..
im not sure i will let it go away! i dont ever let things get to me and i feel this is a good habit.. lol
some people think im very harsh or mean, but i blow things off that dont really mean anything to me.. or if anyone trys to mock me (like my dad) i dont let that take me down either.."

This is called GOOD BOUNDARIES, knowing what IS and what ISN'T your problem. You are a very smart young lady. Glad you have posted. Hang in there, chances are excellent that your dad will wake up.

And when mom wants more info, just let her know that you are supporting her Plan B. LOL! She might not like that - betrayed spouses always long for information about what is happening. Stay strong.

Mr. Wondering here (on Mrs. W's computer)

I think that if dad refuses to use an IM then that's dad's problem. A 17 year old daughter, in the midst of a very important stage in her young minds development (individualization), is NOT a good candidate for IM. Just like her father...she should refuse to be the IM.

A 17 year old, no matter how mature seeming, is still to be protected by her parents and not put in the middle or in a position of protecting/parenting them.

This is too much responsibility for her and unhealthy for her (the 17 year old). She needs to be out making her own mistakes and learning lessons from them herself and not placed on the hook for her parents mistakes.

Dad either uses an independent IM or not...his choice. Darkness/Plan B is mom's choice and responsibility. The daughter will learn a lot more about being a responsible adult observing her mother modeling strength of character and resolve rather than being involved personally.

Mr. Wondering

Wow you are some smart young lady T2LDD.

It really goes to prove you can't fool your kids.

My daughter was tough as nails on me ... I think it was easier in some ways to rebuild my darling H respect then it was with my DD.

And I don't blame her a bit .... I was destroying HER family life.

And the funny thing is that when I was ready to receive help it was my DD who arranged it through one of her professors at Uni.

I think you are marvellous .... just remember to protect your own feelings dear. Right now your Dad is toxic ... like I was ... if or when he wants change then wonderful people like Neak can help ... but HE needs to want it.

T2L you ARE blessed truly you are.

AW

Hi T2LDD! Welcome to MB. You are getting some great info and advice. I'm glad you're here, because you are so involved in the drama right now.

Everyone is right when they say that, however hard it may be, it's best to NOT pass on msgs from your dad to your mom. He's reaching out and "touching" her, in a sense. It's like a drug that he's still managing to get a fix of. He needs to go cold turkey. Suddenly and absolutely cold turkey. Let him know that YOU do NOT want to get in the middle, that is YOUR boundary, you are not trying to control HIM but you will no longer allow yourself to be dragged in.

When your mom asks for info, you can also state your boundaries and your support of her Plan B.

It's really funny (in a sad kinda way) that he says "Your mom is just being controlling!" and "You all need to just get over yourselves!" Keep this in mind: YOU are NOT telling him what to do; you are only stating what YOU will NOT do. He doesn't have to use the IMs. His choice. But you will no longer play HIS immature game. He has turned Plan B into one of those scenes in a movie where the parents are no longer speaking to each other, and they are sitting at the dinner table talking through their kids, saying things like "Will you please tell your mother to pass the potatoes" and "Tell your father he can get his own potatoes." LOL not exactly, but you get the picture? Right now he's trying to control you guys, and jerking on your mom's strings long distance like a puppet, with you being the strings. Refuse to be a string anymore. That's your choice, it's nothing about controlling him. It is not controlling him for you to say you won't be a string any more.

*hugs*

T2LDD, your mom asked us to help you come up with answers for your dad when he tries to pull you in. I have found that the only sane and effective way to deal with such a situation, is to come up with ONE answer that you keep giving and giving and giving, so that it becomes automatic.

What are you guys doing on such and such day can I come see you?
Dad, check with IM. I'm not involved with your plans any more.

Tell mom I put the money in the bank. How much money does your mom need.
Dad, check with IM. I'm not involved with your plans any more.

Why won't your mom talk to me? This is stupid.
Dad, check with IM. I'm not involved with your plans any more.

I don't like not seeing you, so can you stop by my office tomorrow after school?
Dad, check with IM. I'm not involved with your plans any more.

The first time you might have to add (when he starts arguing with you): Dad, I'm hanging up now. I won't talk with you about anything involving our family, and I'll keep on hanging up if you try to make me.

Hey that's a great line, cat!!! T2LDD, I wanna encourage you to memorize it and use it. And to be prepared to hang up.

Ya know, if he gets furious because you hang up on him, that's because HE is no longer able to control YOU! I really think this is more about him wanting to control others, and not that others are controlling him. You hanging up on him is just you enforcing your boundary, remember that.

If I called you up and started cussing you out and saying all sorts of hurtful things to you, would your hanging up on me be you controlling me, or you protecting you? Do I have a right to expect you to stay on the phone and listen to my trash talk? NO! My wanting you to stay on the line is my wanting to control YOU.

If hanging up on him is necessary to protect your boundaries, it's ok to do it, in fact it's a great idea.

I agree with Mr. W.

T2L, you clearly have been raised well. You are a strong young lady, and you remind me of my own daughter who stood toe to toe with her daddy during his affair.

Please do not be offended by what I have to say because I mean absolutely no disrepect to you.

You do not yet fully understand the toll this experience will have on your life. You are presently being hurt in ways you don't even realize.

You must no longer be a go-between for your parents and need to formulate a plan to remove yourself as the IM of father's choice.

This is an opportunity for you to demonstrate your maturity by having your own healthy boundaries in place and enforcing them.

I think KaylaAndy said it best on your mom's thread. When dad starts asking you to pass on info or starts babbling stuff about your mom or the marriage, simply hang up.

When he calls back, inform him respectfully that you will no longer allow him to hurt you that way and that whenever he doesn't respect your boundaries, you will be hanging up on him.

Now for the hard part...

You must follow through. Do not engage him AT ALL in a discussion. Just hang up.

Next time he does it,

do the same thing.

Over and over.

Until he gets the point.

Can you do this?

T2LDD,

I am going to respectfully disagree with some opinions on your thread, but I think the reason is important enough to do so.

You are a Christian young lady, and therefore, are to live as Scripture tells you.

Therefore, I cannot suggest to you to disobey your mother when she asks you to answer her question.

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."

Your mother is "in the Lord". Right now, your father is not. So I am comfortable telling you to refuse a request by your father. However, I believe you are in direct disobedience to God if you refuse a request by your mother.

Your mom must discern how much to ask and when to ask, and she will receive help in that on her thread. Right now, she is the spiritual leader of your family and each one of you is under a spiritual attack by satan. She needs to be able to speak into your life about this and you need to be obedient to God.

You can tell her, "Mom, I don't think it is a good idea for you to hear this, but if you insist, I will tell you."

((sexymamabear))

when my mother asks me what my dad has said . i simply ask her "mom am i supposed to tell you these things?"
or this might make you mad.
well she insists on me telling her what he says so i always obey my mothers wishes everytime, so i completely agree with you
on that.
thank you for your advice. i love your personality and how you have the ability to be straight forward. thank you =)

and yes i promise to not engage in arguments with my dad.


did my mom tell you guys that my dad got upset when me and my brother cut him off and didn't talk to him for a couple months????
i know he will get mad if i cut him off again but i Dont know if i am ready to do so yet.
i usually go with my gut feeling or what i feel god wants me to do . but once i feel i should go plan B on him as well i will.

And we will help by reminding mom that it is better for her not to ask.

T2LDD,

One of the hardest things I learned was that G-d doesn't have grandchildren. You are his child as is your mom. Mark, a very wise man on here patiently explains to me that G-d's sole interest in life is to have a PERSONAL relationship with ME, as well as YOU, and YOUR MOM, and YOUR DAD, etc.

I have come to believe that he places obstacles in our lives to facilitate that we seek him in all things. Some of US are slower at HEARING him than others. And the stakes and situations get higher and harder each time.

Right now your dad isn't HEARING him at ALL. But G-d is still seeking him as he is you. It's so easier for me to say absolutely you shouldn't be giving your mom any information especially because she is in Plan B. But I would be an absolute hippocrat and boy would I be making DEEP amends to G-d.

I understand your mom’s NEED to hear about what’s going on with your dad, and when you have a conversation or text message from him. Two reasons and this was my deal and may not be your mom’s. I was jealous of my children that he was keeping in contact with them, and not me. And I had this very UNHEALTHY need to know what was going on because I wanted to control whatever I could.

The reality is THIS IS NOT IN MY CONTROL. The only thing I can control is myself and today that’s only AFTER I seek G-d and his will for my life.

As parents we sometimes have to do things that hurt our children but they are for the best. In this sitch, you are being asked to do something that could hurt, frustrate or seem to make the situation worst. But in the LONG RUN, having NO INFO on WH is what’s best for your mom. She doesn’t realize it, LIKE I DIDN’T.

Your relationship with your dad is yours… and like you so eloquently put, you are seeking G-ds will for you. You didn’t ask for this, and you certainly shouldn’t be put in the middle, but I am so very impressed with how you walk through this.

Your mother is one blessed woman to have you for a daughter.

Excellent post Queenie,

You should post it on T2L's thread, it would go well with what is being said there.

GMTA Lil, I was just looking for her thread...

SO TODAY MY DAD CALLED ME AND WAS ASKING SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE FAMILY CHRISTMAS PARTY WITH HIS BROTHERS WENT...

MY MOM DIDNT HEAR ANYTHING AND I DIDNT TELL HER... BUT MY MOM ENDED UP FINDING OUT SOME STRUFF BECAUSE MY DAD OPENED HIS BIG MOUTH TO MY LIL BROTHER (10) SO HE WENT TO HER AND ASKED HER WHY HE SAID THESE THINGS..

HOW WELL DID I ACT TO THE QUESTIONS??? I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO SAY!!


QUESTION #1.
SOO DID MY BROTHERS AND EVERYONE TALK A BUNCH OF CR@P ABOUT ME??

MY RESPONSE= I DON'T KNOW DAD.

AND HE SAID HMMMMM WHATEVER ....
YEAAHHH RIGHT.. AND WAS BEING VERY SARCASTIC...

[b]QUESTION #2.
WHY DID THEY INVITE ME I WOULD HAVE WENT....

WELL DAD I DON'T REALLY KNOW..

QUESTION #3.

WHATS WRONG DD17 (ME) ARE YOU TOO BUST TO TALK TO YOUR DAD???


THEN I DIDN'T REALLY RESPOND..

THEN HE TEXT ME ABOUT 10 MIN LATER AND SAID

WHATEVER DD17 (ME) GOODNIGHT IM GOING TO BED MY PHONE IS DYING TALK TO YOU TOMORROW!!!

HE WAS PRETTY UPSET THAT HIM AND HIS MOM (MY GRANDMOTHER) WASN'T INVITED TO THEIR FAMILY PARTY..
SOO YEAHH!!


IS THAT NORMAL?? I MEAN PERSONALLY I THINK HES MAD AND THAT'S A GOOD SIGN RIGHT?BECAUSE IF HE REALLY HATED MY MOM AND ALL OF HIS BROTHERS.. HMMM SEEMS TO BE BOTHERING HIM.. WELL ANYWAYS.. THATS THE STRESS OF TODAY!!
WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK????
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SOOO THEN WE CAME HOME AND HE SAID ALL THAT TO MY BROTHER, MY MOM GOT PRETTY UPSET CUZ ITS THE FIRST TIME THAT MY DAD HAS SAID THINGS TO HIM...
SOO GIVE HER SOME ADVICE AS WELL TO HELP DEAL WITH EVERYTHING BECAUSE IM GONNA TRY TO CUT DOWN ARGUMENTATION WITH MY DAD SO THERE WONT REALLY BE MUCH TO TELL HER.. WHICH WILL BE GOOD BECAUSE I WANT THE BEST FOR MY MAMA AND I WANNA HELP HER AS MUCH AS I CAN AND PROTECTING HER BY NOT HAVING MUCH GOING ON BETWEEN ME AND MY DAD WILL HELP..

Ya did real good.

It looks like since he sees he's not automatically getting what he wants with you, he's moving on to try your little brother. Sick and twisted yes, but keep in mind his brain is flatlined just now. His chances of recovering and being EVEN BETTER than before are excellent.

I'll copy this over to your mom, too, but if he keeps on like this with your brother, your mom will need to limit his phone contact with his dad to times when someone else can be there to monitor the calls, on speakerphone. That way you and your mom can both stay out of the loop.

What does it mean? Well, an important part of the wayward mindset is to control anything and everything possible, without accepting any personal responsibility for decisions, of course. Plan B takes the BS entirely outside the control of the WS. Suddenly, they are left with no one to try and control but themselves, ACK! and of course the OP. Neither one of those options works so well for them.

They get desperate to regain the control they thought they had over their BS, or in this case, the whole family. They will do most anything, even extremely wacko, to try and accomplish this.

So all this means is that he's fairly normal for a WS, and is taking very badly having your mom no longer meeting his emotional needs. He doesn't like having only the Sea Hag to rely on, because she was only meeting a very few needs.

And let's not forget the Ramen.

That's about as close as you're going to get to understanding. It was just a standard, run-of-the-mill attempt at a wayward guilt trip.

for you for not going.

***hugs***

You did good. You repeated the line, and you didn't let him draw you in. I think that's why he drew your brother in - he didn't succeed in drawing you in.

Do you think you could talk to the IMs about this? They may read and post here anyway, I hope so, but it might help to talk to someone on the phone. I hope Cat shows up too. Because...

It isn't your job to protect your mom, hon. It really really really isn't. I promise.

I think cat would say so, and she's really good about explaining such things.

IMHO the fact that he got mad means that it's working. In desperation he pulled your brother into it. I hope ppl help figure out a way to prevent that. I still firmly believe that all those lines need to be closed. He KNOWS it upset your mom, and he's getting something out of it. Some form of connection.

Yes I think it's a good thing that he wanted to be there. I think if we can get your mom to go to a completely dark PB, maybe, just maybe, he'll come to his senses.

No matter what though, it isn't your job to fix things. or to protect your mom. You should not be being put in the middle like this. I think it's damaging to you, and I think it's damaging to the chances of your dad coming home any time soon.

JMHO.

ETA: I see Neak posted first! I guess they're on it!

yeah that's probably a good idea. i mean so far me and my Mom always monitor his phone calls. even today when dad called he was sitting right in front of me. and i didn't think my dad would have said anything but i guess i was wrong =/ hmmm
.
it is pretty sick and twisted that he would go to my lil bro to talk bad about the family or mom.

so what do you guys think would be Best to go about him talking bad to my brother?