Hello T2L. It sounds like you are in a better place today. Consider days like yesterday "cleansing" days.

You asked me earlier if tst used the IMs. I did not go into Plan B. I was overdue for it and was getting ducks in a row when tst defogged.

But I am absolutely SURE he would have refused to use IMs until he had no other option. I had Plan B'd him as much as possible without officially doing so because I couldn't Plan A any longer. That alone just about drove him insane....except he was already insane. :crosseyedcrazy:

Also during our false recovery, he read part of SAA. He stopped after Plan B and informed me that he did not agree with Dr. Harley "using the children as pawns" and that it was immature to not talk together about your own children. UGH!:twobyfour:

You are going to need to make it impossible for him to pass information along to you. Instruct DD that you expect her to not discuss you with WH any longer. I will head over to her thread and talk with her a bit on this.

HOWEVER, I think as the only sane parent and spiritual leader, it is your reponsibility to help her sort through fog babble. So it is important to talk with her about what Mr. Wacked Out is saying.

But YOU are going to have to guard yourself from becoming consumed with it.

I'm not sure I can explain this very well. I'm going to think about it a bit more and I'll be back.

It sounds like, from DD's thread, that T2L actually asks DD what WH said.

This is very wrong and should've stopped after the first few times (human frailty).

Please remember this: going back and forth between PA and PB, or doing a half-@ssed PB, is worse than not doing a PB at all. You lose credibility. And respect. And your love for him.

You are NOT trying to control him by saying you will only communicate via the IMs. HE is CONTROLLING YOU by using your DD as the conduit. He is relishing the way he can still affect you.

YOU have every right to say what YOU WILL and WILL NOT do. That is not controlling HIM, that is self-control and protecting your own boundaries.

He can do whatever he flippin wants. Except his rights end where yours begin. And what you will NOT do, in a good PB, is you will neither give NOR RECEIVE any information from him except what comes through the IMs.

He isn't using the IMs because you are allowing another option.

If he had NO other option, then he wold either use the IMs or he would be in the dark. That's all. His choice. Not you controlling him, entirely his choice.

OK, I’m going to give this a try.

I think the perfect scenario would be that you never hear a word about what WS says or does and that DD and DS never hear their daddy justify his sinful behavior or twist Scripture to use for evil.

But this is obviously not a perfect situation, is it?

You are the spiritual leader for your family right now. WH’s affair is the fleshly reflection of the spiritual battle for his soul. I suspect you also know that when satan has his way with the leader of the family, he has an “in” to every member of that family.

When tst was wayward, he was a tool for satan to speak into our children’s hearts. He twisted Scripture to try to confuse them into accepting lies from the enemy. I knew that satan wanted not just my husband, but me and my children as well.

I felt it critical to be “in the know” about the lies they were being fed so that I could direct them to Scripture and help them understand truth.

Your DD is almost an adult, yes; but she is involved in the biggest spiritual battle ever for her soul.

So, what to do???

First of all, I think DD being on MB could be very helpful against this battle. There are many strong believers on your thread that can walk by her side.

Secondly, DD needs to refuse to engage daddy when he wants to babble. By doing this, she will close satan’s opportunity to speak to her heart. I think KaylaAndy’s suggestion is as good as it can get on how to handle that.

Next, DD also needs to refuse to pass any info on to you. She doesn’t want to be in the middle, but WH is forcing her to be. If she can formulate a plan for herself, she can remove herself from the middle by enforcing her boundaries.

And lastly, you must be discerning in asking about conversations between Dd and her father. You really don’t need to know everything he says. The more you look for opportunities to talk with BOTH your children about sin and how we become ensnared and eventually brought down to death and destruction, the less you will need to know every single word he says. Adultery in a family that has had years of love and respect, offers so many BIG Scriptural lessons that our children can really grasp because they are living it.

I hope I am making some sense here.

I know it is important for you to stay dark, completely dark as far as WS is concerned. But communication between mother and children, in my opinion, must be kept open during such a hard time in their lives.

Yes,I do at times ask what he has said but I do not communicate with him in anyway. He does ask DD17 and DS10 when he can visit and tell your mom I put money in the bank but its one sided, he passes by her I don't. I never tell him anything through DD17 I have told DD17 that i will not meet any needs by doing so, so believe me guys its completely one sided. I do not communicate with him.

DD17 has been told to say IDK dad check your email, IDK IDK IDK.

Yes when they argue she tells me things and I question her or things he says to her. And for example, on Christmas when I am at my families he says to DD17 to tell everyone hello, she looks at me with deer in the headlights puzzled look, I tell her you tell him that you cant do that its not a good idea. I feel there are specific times to know what he is saying to her.

H frequently tells DD17 tell mom this or that. Now like the other day he told DD17 he wanted to be there when they opened there presents and it set her off and she laid into him and then he went into blaming me, but that whole thing started by DD17. I did hear the last half of the argument as I was in the bathtub when it started.

I feel my Plan B, in the respect, that I have not seen or spoken to him, no phone calls, I am silent or out of the room when he calls, no text pages and no emails, has been dark. The only part of plan B has not been is that I hear what he says to DD17 and I have not concentrated on things I like.

I do hear information when him and DD17 argue. At times I clarify the things he says to her as they are half truths to make her doubt her mother. I have really encouraged her to point him to the IM's BUTTT I think because she is well aware of the financial issues-me a 20 year stay at home mom straight out of high school-she is worried that we will have to move.

Also remember that lovely guilt offering car he bought her in October, well she says once she finds full time work she wants a job she will probably go plan B on him. As bad as that sounds she is afraid that he will take her car from her and I have to keep in mind that she is 17. I did tell her that that is why I didn't want her to take the car but too late now.

But i promise you all I have been dark in Plan B, heard more than necessary, but NO breaches. I won't let us down.

T2L, you are doing GREAT!

We just want to help you protect yourself if there are any doors left open.

If we can help your daughter shut the door WH keeps barging through, it will be even better for you, and MUCH better for her.

"You are the spiritual leader for your family right now. WH’s affair is the fleshly reflection of the spiritual battle for his soul. I suspect you also know that when satan has his way with the leader of the family, he has an “in” to every member of that family."

Wow, I remember this from scripture, and it certainly was true in my case. I ended up having a ONS, something I never would have considered my whole life. My faith in God was also severely tested.

Awe thanks guys, I am trying with all my heart to stay dark as possible, for myself, the kids but for every other reading who may come here and for all my mentors.

I think its great DD17 is posting and I know that the home front will be even more unified and stronger to be able to stand.

I know the bible says when the enemy comes in like a flood that God will raise the standard, well my friends Plan A and B is the standard and weapon God can use I am sure of it. Its hard, and not for the weak of heart, you truly have to become a warrior for your family and children and for the Kingdom of God.

Thank you guys all so much for your love and support to me and the kiddies, I am eternally grateful!

Were off to celebrate Christmas with BIL's, H knows we are going, have told DD17 to not respond to any texts to H while we are they and if she feels she must to say dad i can't talk right now I will call you when we leave. Should be a calm day.

I don't want to discourage you, and yes you are doing great, but it's things like this that I wanted to point out:


One-sided conversations are still not completely dark. I've held back in saying soemthing cus I didn't wanna sound harsh and I was trying to figure out why others weren't mentioning this. I get that you want to counteract any lies/garbage he tells her. I think she's strong enough and she gets it; I also think at least for now maybe it would be healthy for her to have someone else to confide in if she needs to.

Wouldn't it be better to have one topic off-limits with your daughter (which she doesn't really want to be put in the middle anyway) for just a little while, and to recover the marriage; than to talk to her about everything but have a broken home?

I really think you haven't gone very dark at all. You are constantly preoccupied with him: what is he texting the kids; where is he parking; where did he go after visiting the kids; how much time is he spending in your town vs. OW's town; etc. Your DD seems to have a healthier attitude, IMHO: out-of-sight, out-of-mind; so she is not consumed with this except when she is put in the midst of the drama through passing on text messages, even if it is just one way.

Another thought: if you cut off the route of him getting msgs to you through your DD, maybe he'll stop telling the things that you feel you need to monitor. Do you trust the IMs to monitor the msgs?

I don't know how common it is but I haven't heard of another case where the WH refuses, absolutely refuses, to talk to the IMs. Maybe it's because they are folks he doesn't know, or maybe it's because he still gets what he wants through texting your DD.

Maybe it's healthy to monitor what he sends her so you can counter it; but then again, maybe it's healthy to remove her from being put in the middle.

I've been telling her this off list
T2L, told ya so hee hee

I do know how hard it is, how easy it is to obsess over them. I think (for me at the time, at least) it may be a way to try and keep some sort of connection, but the reality is this kind of knowlege drains the love bank in double quick time.

BTW hello there T2LDD

Ooooh lildoggie, us geniuses think alike!

I'm glad you were thinking the same thing, I've thought it for awhile but hesitated to say anything. I finally couldn't just sit idly by anymore.

T2L,

I don’t know if I have posted to you before or not. If not, I’m sorry. I tend to be selfish and get scared to exercise out of my comfort zone because I don’t want to give anyone bad advice. The reality is, the cool part of this place is others will jump in and correct any misinformation or advice that I may offer.

I haven’t read your thread and there is a lot to it. I don’t honestly know if I will be able to, but what I do know is that you are in Plan B and are struggling with your HEAD and HEART.

I KNOW this….TOO WELL…

I was and when I can go there am still TOO PREOCCUPIED with WH. It was explained to me that Plan B was to follow Plan A after Plan A was losing its effectiveness and Plan B was the only option I had to not lose the love I had left and to PROTECT MYSELF. It was told to me, that when I went into Plan B my heart and mind needed to be in sync. Honestly, I don’t think it was, but for my sitch there was NO OTHER way to go, but Plan B

Protect myself… what the heck did that mean. I didn’t understand it because I didn’t understand boundaries and I wasn’t able to even begin to look at what a very unhealthy situation my M really was. Whether it had always been that way, or had become that way I can’t answer and that’s my biggest struggle. And to this day I still struggle… It’s so much easier to see other people’s forest than my OWN…

I saw the board brought in Rin, my assessment is because some sort of abuse or way unhealthiness in your relationship is present. Rin is the best, because she has done the internal work to learn about her, how she operated in her M, etc. And I have HAD to learn this stuff too. I’m not saying you are abused, Im just putting out what’s possible….

If you are fighting the ramifications of that, I do every day. If you fight yourself from hearing news about WH, I do that too. I am SO MUCH better, but I still look for little tidbits etc.

Right now, regardless of anything, you are hurting, you are damaged and you have suffered a trauma at the hands of someone who simply isn’t treating you right. And as human beings I have come to learn in the words of Rin, THAT’S UNACCEPTABLE. But this is what you are used to, and you need it in some ways to feel normal. You need that chaos to feel connected to the WH..

I BEG you to find the strength to tighten the noose on you for needing to know. G-d is taking care of WH, he is HURTING more for WH than you ever could. Are you familiar with Psalm 23? The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures . He leads me besides still waters…. He renews my soul. He guides me in right paths as befits His name.

I don’t doubt how much you love your H, but this man, WH isn’t your H. He is dangerous to you. You have learned harmful ways of living that G-d has seen enough of and needs you to lie down so he can restore your soul and become his servant in health.

Each time we allow any tidbit of news into our heads it enters into our heart and we hurt and the process of healing starts all over again. STOP IT… I beg you to understand and hear how dangerous that is.

I certainly have far to move to stop all that, but I am a little further along than you and truly feel that pain when you hear the info.

Like the NC with the OW is needed, NC with WH is needed to heal, as well as prepare you for what G-d’s path for you is. Sorry for the ramble…. I hope I made some sense. My heart just understands your heart… so well…

Mine too, Queenie. NC and staying dark is so difficult at first. Afterall, these men were our lovers and confidants for so long. I had a heck of a time going completely dark. I longed for information about him.

But I did start feeling much better when I heard NOTHING.

Me too.

Lil Jayne,
I am glad that you felt you were able to say what you felt I needed to hear. I respect that. I can see what you are saying. Yes in my Plan B, I may not be dark in respect to myself and not allowing him into my head. I do think about all that stuff and even when I hear nothing.

For me it was not just not my husband and best friend but I have been with my H since I was 14, he was my 8th grade boyfriend. So it's a very hard adjustment and transition. I did okay at first but since the onset of Thanksgiving it has been hard and he has been worse. He has doubled his crap since the Thanksgiving, but I think it may be him getting Nostalgic and it will probably subside now that everything is over.

So yes I need to be dark on my side, the same way I have been dark on H's side. I am trying to get it stronger. DD17 and I have talked, she has read the posts and we feel that we can tighten it up more. She and I agreed that most of it I can skip hearing but we are going to leave a window open for things she feels need to be said. But overall I am going to take the advise and go darker on my side. I have concentrated all my efforts on staying dark to prevent H from getting any need but I have neglected going dark for my protection. Some of it happens even when DD17 doesn't talk to me. Really some of it is just my brain and being pissed off royally and not being able to comprehend this crap. Sometimes I just spin and spin and spin and it's not even when I hear information. I'm not really sure what to do with that either. Its like I don't even need to hear information to be frustrated and feel like I am being barraged under a huge spiritual cloud and I feel like I am swirling out of control mentally. Don't get me wrong I am not crazy I just think and think and think even when I try to distract myself. IDK guess time it'll lessen?


Okay like today, H texted DD17 at the family get together at his brothers. I said either don't respond or if you feel you need to say dad I will get back to you in a bit. So she did, then towards afternoon he texts her pictures of him at the pier and then in the evening he says so what are you to busy for pops. I said DD17 that is manipulation, please do not respond until we leave so she didn't. I think If I was there she may have chatted he is still dad and as strong as she seems sometimes she feels bad for him. We made it without him being able to come through DD17 and when she got home she texted him I'm home and he called.

But here's another example, normally he NEVER says anything to DS10 thankfully because I think he knows the anxiety hes caused, so usually I leave the room when they talk.

BUTTTTTTT, Tonight I wish I had not. Tonight he said to DS10 that you know I still love you even if they probably told you I don't love you I still want to take care of you and I would have gone if they invited me. Ok now you see, I WANT DS10 to tell me these things. For 1 so I can journal it and 2 so i can correct it. So I had to say DS10 your uncles and aunts know that daddy still loves you and has anyone ever said daddy doesn't love you? DS10 says no. I say have I ever said dad doesn't love you? DS10 says no. I say daddy loves you. We just chose to not invite your dad until he leaves Sea Hag. DS10 says I think dad just wants me to not like them, and I said probably. Okay in these instances I need to know and now I will be in the room monitoring from now on since he did that, or at least until I am sure he will not do that again. I think he is getting squeezed really bad by all this holiday stuff and now its even bleeding into him saying stuff to DS10.



I think with some answers you have provided for DD17, if she uses them, he may very well get bored with it or see that she is not going to go there. I am going to confirm with her the possible answers and highly encourage her to use them. I think its going to be hard for her, but if i can get her to say it just once then every time after that will be easier.


Yes like I mentioned he vehemently refuses to use them! I don't think that he will change that stance even if DD17 cuts out access, but I guess anything is possible. The reason H doesn't use the IM's isn't because he doesn't know them as my 1st IM's he did know very well, in fact are church friends that he likes and he chewed them out and they quit and that's how I got Pep, Neak and Delean.


{{{{{Sigh}}}}} Boy, I think I'll go take a bath....Thanks guys and appreciate all the input. I know you say it cuz ya love me....

From your DD's thread:

I mean this 100%. This is totally unacceptable, and cannot keep on. Sorry that you have one more little drama to deal with just when you're trying to get your post-holiday equilibrium back, but you're a tuffy and can do it.

Do you have a friend who could come over several times a week and monitor phone calls? It would need to be someone who was strong enough to step in and give a warning at the first offense, and end the call if this happens again after that.

Unfortunately this is something you did need to know, and be sure to document it. However, if this becomes the new norm, you will very quickly hate WH. It's crucial to nip it off immediately.

Once you no longer have to keep hearing this garbage, I really think you'll enjoy PB a lot more, even though you are having to adjust to the loss of your lifelong friend.

Go salsa through the house, shouting (or at least thinking real loud), "I'M WONDERFUL!!!!!"

I think he upped the ante by going through DS10, because it felt like the line to you through DD17 was closing.

I think that means it was working, to close that line.

I think the line through DS10 needs to be closed. I'm not sure how, since you want to be able to counter anything WH tells DS.

JMHO.

You did such an awesome Plan A. He's missing you, that's clear. And he's getting desperate for any connection with you. Even discussing things like "I'll park here so your mom won't have to see me" is a connection; it's his actions affecting you, and he knows it.

I'd just like to see your Plan B be as stellar as your Plan A was. You're right, I just tell you these things cus I care and I want you to succeed. This is JMHO of the best thing to do. You have to decide for yourself.

I LOVE YOU NEAK!!!!!!!!!!

u 2

My sis and I have both gained quite a bit of experience protecting our kids from wacko family members, much of it the hard way and by making mistakes.

Different types of wackos yes, but the same methods work.

Oops, I'm pretty sure 'wackos' is a DJ.

T2L, you were asking about second best.

Awe Jayneypooh, I love you! Really I know you are for me and the kids and I trust ya! I think really that God wants this for me as well because when I say I am swirling I can't convey to you how bad it has been and hearing then makes it worse. So I'm gonna go with this as God is not a God of confusion but of peace, love and a sound mind and let me tell you I have not a sound mind since Thanksgiving just because its so hard and then he barfs and makes it worse. So thank you to all who have been obedient to share what God put on your hearts. I always tell DD17 when God gives you something to tell someone you are not responsible for anything but to give the instruction, they are responsible for being obedient. I can't keep crying out to God to deliver me and he sends me the game plan through y'all and I ignore it.

Like this....There's a guy who's standing on top of his house because there is a flood and he is crying out to God, Lord save me! A man comes by and tries to throw him a life vest, and he replies NO I am waiting for God to rescue me. He again cries out and say Lord rescue me from this flood! And a bit later a man comes by in his boat and says hop in, and he replies NO I am waiting for God to save me! So he cries out a 3rd time and says Lord save me from this flood and again a bit later a helicopter comes by and tries to throw him a rope and he say NO I am waiting for God to rescue me. So the waters rise and the man drowns and goes to Heaven and is greeted by the Lord. He says Lord I cried out to you 3 times and you did not rescue me why? The Lords says, I sent you a life vest, a boat and a raft what more did you want?

LOL, I love that little joke, but I will implement a tighter PB as I really feel this is the will of God for me as I am losing my peace and focus.



I know these things are right and I'm gonna get on them, I feel like my life is swirling and it truly needs to stop. The loss and readjustment is one thing but the comments make it harder. I think were going to be able to tighten it up.

DD17 re-read the response IDK dad talk to the IM's I'm not in the middle of your plans anymore so I think we're gonna go for it and I think it will have success. I just feel like I gotta get past 1 more day, New Years Eve, always another favorite with our family and then I feel like I am going to buckle down and focus with all my might on that list....painting my room, starting my keyboard lessons and going back to the gym etc etc etc.

I don't really have anyone who can come over during phone calls, I will have to do some looking, everyone here is so busy with family lives and we have only lived here 2 years so we are still getting to know people. I am hoping bonehead just couldn't stand it and burst and hopefully it will not happen again. I think he was so mad I was with his brothers so he dragged Gabe into it. He has not done that during the whole thing and hopefully now it will be done.

I am taking kids to Disneyland hopefully on New Years Eve, its my day with kids, does DD17 have to respond at all to any of his texts even happy new years wishes? I really don't want to hear or see it, I mean thats my day. I want to be able to ask her since its my day no answering dad this day unless its an emergency, is that fair?

Thanks y'alll, pooped it midnight and gotta get up at 5:30AM to have some prayer time before I lead worship tomorrow, last worship sevice of 2008. GOOOOOOD BYE 2008! :happynewyear: