Seeking some advice (aren't we all?). My GF (Jill) and I have been talking about making things permanent (marriage) for a couple months. Right now we're still just -talking-. There is no ring yet, we're not telling people that we're engaged. So far we simply agree that our shared goal is marriage to one another, and that we'd like to become officially engaged sometime in the first half of 2009. Part of it depends on me finding a new job, and being able to pay cash for a ring rather than buying on credit, and getting unentwined with her sisters financially.

We've been discussing some of the more pragmatic aspects of this future union and, as can be expected, we're running into a couple of snags. No deal-breakers mind you. Just some issues for which there are no ready or obvious solutions. Most of these are, not surprisingly, financial.

HOUSING: We both own houses (as defined as paying mortgages and having equity - neither of us owns outright); I kept mine in my D settlement, and she co-owns hers with her sister. We both prefer her neighborhood to live in eventually, but we'll start out in mine. Even if we buy out her sister and I move in there, it's too small. It's a 2/1, 1920's Sears Roebuck Catalog Home, and since I have my kids half the time, we'd need a 3BR at a minimum.

One idea is to sell both our homes and buy something bigger in her 'hood. Problem is, her area is more expensive (closer to downtown) than mine, and it just doesn't make sense to me to spend more money for an older home and not gain any tangible benefits over where I live now. I'm not exactly out in the boondocks either. Plus, Jill is an architect and wants to either build from the ground up or significantly rehab an existing home. I'm on-board with that either of those ideas. The current idea on the table is to sell my house, use that money to buy out her sister, level her existing home, and build new on that lot. It's the most cost-effective solution, but logistically it's going to be a little tougher. Also, her plot is a little closer to a bad area than I'm entirely comfortable with (Houston is laid out funny with bad neighborhoods literally existing across the street from good ones). I told her that I'd want a 6-8' fence around the whole property if we build there, which she is amenable too actually. I think we'll work this issue out since we're more or less eye to eye on most elements. There is definite POJA potential.

DEBT AND INCOME: She carries a lot more debt than me. Several thousand in revolving credit (she wants to pay off all or most of before we get married), and close to $40K in loans she took out when she was invited to become a shareholder in her firm early this year. This last part, while it might sound daunting, doesn't concern me too much. The debt is secured through her ownership stake in the firm. It's been in business for over 30 years and she's been there for 10. There is a hard plan to pay it off over a finite time period through the dividend payment process. It also gives her some job security in that when work is slow, they can't lay her off or fire her without buying her out. Her only real risk is if the firm goes under entirely. I have no real debt to speak of. My car and my house (for which I have equity in both), and my CS payments which are significant. Other than that, it's just my basic utilities. I have no revolving credit to pay off as I don't carry balances on my cards except for extreme circumstances.

The one thing we keep getting stuck on is how we would set up our finances. She makes a bit more than I do (about $15K/yr more) and she's used to being independent with her money. She's NMNK, and she's never had a really long-term, deeply committed relationship. The idea of joining accounts scares her. It kind of scares me too. Although she makes more, she spends more. In turn, my fiscal austerity makes her a little nervous. For instance, I'm more likely to buy no-name brand and discontinued stuff. She's not a label-whore by any means, but if she sees something she likes, she'll buy it on the spot.

In my first M, the XW and I kept separate accounts. She'd pay all the monthly bills and I'd cut her two checks a month (on the 1st and the 15th) to cover half of the expenses. Whatever money we had left over was ours do with as we pleased.

I now see how detrimental this habit was to our M. It led to extremely independent behavior. Especially on the XW's part. She'd drop large sums of money on things that I had no idea about, and ran up several thousands of dollars of debt more than once without my knowledge. Everyone I've spoken to since (this site, my attorney, and my IC) all, without fail, describe the keeping of separate accounts as an absolute harbinger of IB which, as we all know, is fatal to any marriage.

Once compromise that Jill has offered is one joint account to pay the bills with, and we both still keep separate accounts for other things. I tried to explain to her that this still leaves open the opportunity for IB. She still doesn't understand how dangerous this is. To her thinking, a little IB is okay. She did tentatively mentioned that maybe if we kept separate accounts, we could allow each other to have review access (I could see what she's doing in hers and she could see what I'm doing in mine). This seems needlessly clunky to me. I suspect that she's just having trouble with the notion of "sharing her money" with someone else since it's sooooo alien to her. She's going to be 38 in a few months and never having had to do that before can be quite a challenge. I understand this.

She has agreed that we should seek some pre-marital counseling, as well as financial counseling and I'm hoping the issue can be addressed there. Also, I'd like to suggest some reading, which she said she'd be open to. Would HNHN be a good source? I haven't read it yet so I don't know how much the subject of financial integration comes up. I can't draw from my own past M experiences since they were so flawed.

At this stage I'm thinking of saying to her:

"I intend to put my entire paycheck into the joint account. I love you and trust you to be responsible. I hope that you love and trust me too. I can't control your actions though, so if you feel the need to keep a separate account for yourself, there is nothing I can do to stop you."

At the end of the day, I can only control my own actions. Perhaps if I lead by example... I dunno, thoughts?

Dr. Seabird,

I will take Jill's sister B off of your hands. No charge.

I ran my marriage with a joint account and it worked well of the most part with both paychecks automatically deposited in the joint account. This will not prevent monkey-business entirely. We always had the agreement that we would run the finances like a business with full disclosure and say a $200.00 individual-item spending limit, beyond that amount negotiation would have to occur.

I have seen it proposed, and I believe on this site, that a couple would have 3-accounts, 2-individual and 1-joint. Each would have their own paycheck deposited in their own personal account. The payment of expenses would occur on a proportional income basis. For example, if you made 40% of the total income, then you would pay 40% of the total expense, with the rest in your account left for discretionary spending. Additional rules would have to be into place for major purchases, major repairs, trips, etc.

I would be inclined to follow the 3-account plan were I to be at your stage of planning.

Mike and I were following the 3-account system when he died, BUT we were combining stuff. Everything was "ours."

I think the 3 account system could work, but I'd put everything into one joint account and then have a set amount of "play" money for each spouse. A budget is also a good idea.

I'm excited for you.

The 3 account system doesn't assuage my IB fears. It seems like a single account would better encourage POJA decisions though I know there are no guarantees. Perhaps if we adopted the 3 account system, full disclosure and POJA on any spending over a certain amount (like Dutch's $200 limit), that would make me more comfortable.

I wonder if she'll be receptive to it. She recently bought a new Macbook. I'm an IT pro by trade, but Apple products don't fall into my realm. I asked her how much she paid and when she said, "$x,xxx". My response was more of a reaction: "$X,XXX?!?! REALLY?!?! HOLY COW!!!". I didn't explicitly criticize her choice, but I was a bit shocked at the ease with which she made the decision to spend that much. A couple of days earlier she had consulted me on purchasing a different laptop for less than half that price.

It's been a long time since anyone has scrutinized her purchasing decisions and the idea of going through that now is a bit anathema to her.

I off to take Jill's sister B off of your hands and you have no comment? Here I was figuring I was removing an obstacle at no charge to you. I'll even sweeten the offer, I'll marry Jill's sister B! What a deal!

There is no doubt that you both have tendencies to overcome and that initially until you both define your boundaries and expectations that you'll both need to practice the POJA repeatedly until it seems natural.

I also had the policy while married to pay off credit card debt as it occurred. I do this now online. The XW used a particular store's credit card and we agreed that after an expenditure on that card that she would write out a check for the entire amount so we didn't have the surprise of the statement at the end of the month. This helped things work very smoothly and because of some of these things I got out of the marriage debt-free and with a very high credit-score.

Ex and I also had 3 accounts, with big purchases being subject to POJA (I didn't know that is what it was called). While we were both working, ex took care of all bills with his income and mine was used for vacations and savings. I had a set amount automatically drafted from every paycheck that went into a brokerage account (this was in addition to work IRA contributions). Two can live more cheaply than one. Of all the bad things that hapened in our marriage, at least at the end we were dividing up assets and not debt.

I would definitely ask your GF to pay off her cc debt before you get married. The partnership $$ is not a big deal. Hopefully she didn't charge the computer.

Pre-marital counseling sounds like a great idea. Ex-H and I had it...we went about 5 times. It wasn't cheap, and in the end it didn't work. I think the problem was that we had already decided to get married. I would go again but with a more open attitude. The counselor did not know us. We took personality tests and the counselor went over potential issues and how we should deal w/them as they came up in our marriage.

I'm ignoring your entreaties re B on purpose and for a reason Dutch. I want us to remain friends.

First, be aware that B is 39, single, doesn't date, and has no prospects (either male or female). Consider the possible "why" for such a phenomenon. Consult Occam's Razor while formulating your theory. I will finish by saying simply that acerbic and prik-lee (misspelled on purpose because the filter censored the correct version - LOL!) aren't qualities typically desirable in most women.

Trying to define my own boundaries and expectations is part of what this thread is about. I'm seeking guidance both on trying to get Jill to understand my concerns, but also for me to understand what is reasonable and acceptable.

starving - My XW and I did premarital counseling as well, but it was religious-based with a focus on us being interfaith (she's Jewish, I'm a Presby). We didn't ever look at the nonspiritual side of our relationship which is what needed the most care and attention. The religious issues both between her and me, but also between her family and me distracted us from seeing the other potential issues.

LMAO! She doesn't look 39. I now imagine that it will be difficult to separate the two sisters.

Out of curiosity, what does B do for a living?

Well, nothing at the moment. She is an artist with a degree in Fine Arts. She's quite talented, but something is preventing her from pursuing it fulltime. I honestly can't tell if she's a little lazy, or insecure about it, or what. Her "day job" was an accounting clerk, but she was laid off from an engineering company a couple of months ago. She's been rather slow to seek something new. Jill stated that when she got laid off from her last job 5 years ago, she got a 6 month severance, and for 6 months sat at home, read, watched tv, and played computer games. She's very introverted, and even before she and I met, Jill had warned her that their cohabitation situation would come to and end eventually. Even though B is the older sister, I think that Jill takes care of her as though she were the younger one. I have stated that she would have to get unwound from her sister a bit more before we make things permanent. She assured me that we wouldn't need an extra bedroom in our house for B.

I have a gorgeous 39 year old sister who is probably going to break up with her boyfriend. She's NKNM, but at this point in her life, I think she's good relationship material. Her boyfriend, however, is not. He started dating her shortly after his divorce. He hasn't dealt with the hurt and betrayal of an affair, and he takes it out on my sister. He may be a good guy, but he's on the rebound, and we all know what that means.

(Sorry to totally threadjack, Seabird.)

No worries GG. It's still sort of on-track and worth reading/ learning about. I can always find something from others' stories to apply to my own.

Please refer her to me! Since this is a financial thread, tell her to have her financial house in order.

It might be interesting to start up a thread for finances and the single person (single = non-married).

I'm wondering, Dr. Seabird, if there isn't some form of financial counseling available for you and Jill. May I add that I am so happy for the both of you.

She frankly sounds like a therapist's dream patient.

Yeah, we're definitely going to seek some professional financial advice. I also want to protect her in case the XW's "greed gene" kicks in again and tries to include Jill's assets in a revaluation of the CS. Something else we need to look into is how the shares she owns in her firm will work out. Their present value might have to be sequestered as prior value assets so as not to be subject to joint ownership. In other words, I want to make sure that they can't be attached to any of my financial obligations. She's worked hard to build her financial world and I want her to be able to protect it - even if it's from me.

As for B, yeah, there's some interesting dynamics there. A few days before she got her pink slip, we had a prescient conversation over dinner:

Me: "Your artwork is so good. Have you considered doing it full-time?"

B: "Not really... I don't know. Maybe. I don't really want it to be a job."

Me: "How about something in the art world then on the administrative side. My sister told me that the Museum of Fine Arts (MFA) is hiring."

B: "Nah... I'm not really interested in doing that."

Jill: "Then what would you want to do? Are you happy doing accounting and just painting on the weekends?"

B: *shrug* "Pretty much. It's a job. It pays the bills, and I don't have to deal with a lot of people. If I could do -anything- at all, I'd like to go back to school."

Jill: "What do you want to study? Get your Masters maybe?"

B: *shrug* "I don't know. Whatever... I just want to be in school again. I just liked it better there."


Can you guys say ???

I think pre-marital financial planning is an awesome idea, Booka. Since money problems are the number one reason for divorce, figuring out and addressing the issues before hand would help. How we earn, spend and save our money shows where our values are. When there are major money conflicts, there are usually major value conflicts. BTDT first time around.

Seabird, it sounds like B simply doesn't want to work. I'd make sure there are clear boundaries when you marry Jill.

As an artist I can understand B's desire to be in school. It's safe, your obligations are clear, and if you're in a fine arts environment you have the opportunity for creativity that the daily grind can sap from you. Much of your time is devoted to developing and improving your skills and often you have an objective for your work so having to be completely creative in terms of coming up with the ideas is taken care of. B might find that quite different though if she goes for a master's of fine art. There is creative support in that environment too but you have to produce and support a body of work. Maybe B is scared to put herself out there as a professional artist, after all, it requires a lot of confidence in your abilities and lots of time spent working without a steady pay check.

Thanks nams, that's a pretty good perspective. I like that you neither condone nor condemn her behavior. For the record, she really is very good, and people tell her that she's very good on a regular basis. Because her personal network is essentially Jill's network (a bunch of architects and designers), she has access to a pretty rich artistic community. It's unfortunate and frustrating to them that she shuns offers of support and advice.

LOL! ah no. . . separate checking accounts does not lead to IB. . . many concrete thinkers would like to use what they can see as proof of their beliefs. . . if you can see it, it must be true! LOL! I would prefer to work backwards to find out what the current situation represents to each person.

I think if you work the condition backwards, you will find that extremely independent personalities prefer to have separate checkbooks. And its the extremely independent minded personalities, who are SELFISH, that ultimately make poor marriage partners. Many people are great people as individuals, however, those same people make lousy marriage material. source: "Private Lies" by Dr. Frank Pittman, Phd. practicing psychologist, dealing with infidelity. My XW is one of them. . . every likes her, she has friends everywhere, jovial, goes to everyone's family funeral, but in a marraige relationship, very, very different person. . . . demands total unconditional control and obediance to her commands, and POJA is laughable because it restricts her personal freedom. (true story)

My parents who are 80's have had separate checkbooks, and it started as soon as my mom went back to school to get her BS at the age of 50 and she got a real job. . .

What separate checkbooks requires is more communication, more agreement, more interaction, and more TRUST. . . now if 80% of the take home went into a household checkbook, and the remaining 10% went into separate checkbooks. . . i hardly suspect that having separate checkbooks is the leading signal of divorce. LOL!

My X and I had separate checkbooks, but that was not the cause of our divorce. NPD was the cause. . . and NPD still drives XW's relationships. . .

so Seabird, you still have a ways to go, you are not ready for a second marriage yet, you haven't figured out the characteristics of YOUR best partner's qualities. And there are so many red flags with your current GF, which are brought to the surface with stress of employment issues, that you are again asking for difficulties.

good luck, but you need to keep working on understanding personalities and psychology.

wiftty

I appreciate your attempt to advise me in this, but the fact that you've made a "concrete" diagnosis of my entire situation based on the limited information in this thread thread coupled with your own personal experiences doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. I have to shake my head in wonder at how you are so right and all of the other experienced people I've corresponded with are so wrong. I'd really hate for you to waste any more of your valuable time on me.

wiftty, your mom got a "real job" as opposed to...?