Interesting to read that last bit. Haven't written that before. Don't remember having thought it before.

I probably do need a divorce.

I don't want one. But I probably do need one. Tearing down the old to start anew. When I implode, I implode in a big way. Everything comes down. I fail big. Always have. Not a creature of moderation. At all.

Without a divorce, I'm stuck. I can't move on. I can't figure out where I want to live, I can't look for a job without worrying about what effect it'll have on the divorce, I can't get away from all the toxicity.

Same with the business. I have to let go. I have to get out. I have to move on. It's all the same thing.

It's not just an affair. It's an affair started out of active, fallen off the wagon alcoholism. He's not just acting like an addict, he IS one. "Using" OW, like they all do. But he needs AA, too. It's the 2 years of watching him slide and feeling that terror from childhood brushing at the back of my brain. Walking on eggshells, distancing myself, occasionally strong enough to demand that he seek treatment but never strong enough to really GO if he didn't. So he went instead. Right to OW - another great enabler - a "I'm so defenseless and emotionally abused by my emotionally abusive, neglectful husband and you give me things I've never had before", not-even-original, oldest-trick-in-the-book dry drunk herownself!

OF COURSE!

I've got to get the gunk off me.

I'll stay dark now. There's no reason to come out. There's no more business issues to discuss, no complexities to parse. It's all over but the final terms. Attorneys can handle that. I don't need to. And just 3 days of writing letters and tutorials to him - with no response to deal with! - was enough to rip me up again.

I'm not saying this is right. But I think maybe I haven't wanted to admit that I can't really do recovery without a D.

Then again, maybe I'll feel different once I quit bawling....

thanks for reading all these rants and I'm gonna shaddup now.

Mirium,

We know how you feel because we are all either there now or have been there at some point. There is nothing like an A to completely wipe you out financially. I'm facing the same thing. My business has gone down hill, and mainly it's because of my lack of attention to it due to all of the emotional stress. Two years ago I thought that we were set for retirement, but today bankruptcy doesn't look too far off. Thousands have been lost due to having to sell our house in a down market, moving expenses, using savings to live off of, attorney fees, and debts accumulated by WH to impress OP. It truly is tragic.

You will go through an emotional roller coaster like you could never have imagined. You will be up and down on a daily basis for a long time. For me it was a year or more. Then the ups and downs were farther betweeen, but were more intense. That is where I am now. When I'm up, I'm really up. During those times I hate WH, would like to tell him a thing or two. But then suddenly the down comes. And boy, is it a downer. Without warning too. Whew, you really have to watch out for those days. I'm looking at 1 1/2 years in Plan B, but I'm finding that the downs don't last too long anymore. I'm not trying to scare you, just give you an idea of what to expect. Others can chime in, but from what I have seen, it's a pretty typical ride.

The one thing I can warn you about is not to expect your WH to "get it." In other words, he will probably take everything that you say and turn it around somehow to be your fault. He will fault himself for nothing, so don't expect anything other than venom. He will see none of this as his fault. Now I could be wrong and he could suddenly wake up, but don't expect it.

I say to just let your atty handle this. It will protect you from any further contact with him. Right now you are too hurt to risk it. Don't keep breaking your Plan B. I did that, and it became totally ineffective on WH. In the end, he Plan B'd me better than I Plan B'd him. Plan B is for you though, which is something that I didn't totally understand in the beginning. I do now.



Just keep posting during the rough times and we will support you.
Remember, things happen for a reason and we don't always see it at the time.

Hi miriam,

I've been reading your rants. I don't know what to say except:

Here's a hug!!!: ((((((((((miriam))))))))))

Your mind is racing at a million miles-an-hour and your fingers are starting to feel the burn by trying to keep up!!



Charlotte

We were cross posting.

One more thing. Don't push the D unless you are absolutely sure you are done. You know the stats - most A's die within 2 years. Dr. Harley recommends 2 years in Plan B. Personally, I wasn't willing to wait 2 years in Plan B, but some are. I was willing to give it only one. The point is that you should not make a decision like this when you are emotionally drained. Give yourself a time limit, but take some time to think about this and get yourself to a more emotionally stable place before you nail the coffin shut.

I agree, Charlotte! Miriam, I just read your last post and I don't know if I'd call it a rant, but I could feel your pain and sadness in every line.

There will be better days, but you will be better off to feel this pain for what it is and to share it here.



BF439

Yep. And you'll be blamed for (among many other things): 9/11, WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War, the Crimean War, Jonestown, Waco, the stock market crash in 1929, Global Warming, the sinking of the Titanic, the melting ice caps, etc. etc. ad nauseum!!

Everything...(and I do mean EVERYTHING!!)...is your fault. Gee, BS's sure have a lot of power, don't they? To cause all of these disasters?

Charlotte

To all:

thank you.

I really appreciate you telling me what I need to hear


I did feel relief tonight when I emailed WH and told him that attorneys would take it from here on the business shut down.
That was me vanishing back into the dark. Part of why I'm so upset is that I came out. He has not responded at all - can't blame him for my upset - that's what I meant when I was trying to say that I knew I was doing this to myself.

I just got off the phone with my BFF who is also gently challenging me - even on the assumption that I have to shut down the company. She says I haven't tried everything yet because I'm in so much pain that I just want everything to be done - the marriage, the business, everything. She doesn't know what else I have to yet to try - but she thinks I'm moving too quickly toward quitting. (She's been my BF for 35 years - anyone who can hang in there that long bears listening to.) Her counsel was just like yours about the marriage - wait until you are in a more stable place.

I know this is good advice and I know it comes from a good place, both from you and from her.

I'm going to go have my second glass of wine, watch some more of "Star Trek: Nemesis" (a movie I'm not fond of but a "franchise" that has been a friend since 1967) - and then draw a really hot bath, complete with bath salts. Part of my problem is that I'm not sleeping but 4, maybe 5 hours a night - for about 2 months. Hopefully the wine, my Starfleet friends, and the bath salts will help. I would love to get at least 6 hours.

I hope the next time I "show my face" here I'm at a better place on the rollercoaster.

Thanks again.

- Miriam

My WH left a voicemail at my office last night. He sounded upset; voice was tense like he was "overcontrolling" it. He said he had read everything.

Then he dropped a bombshell. He offered to sign over all equity in the house if it would help get a loan to save the company.

He called again this morning at 7:15 am on my cell phone. I didn't pick up and just got the message a few minutes ago.

WTF????? I mean -- W T F ????????!!!!!!

A couple of items worth noting - 3/4 of the house equity was put there by me when we bought it, out of holdings that were mine. So basically he's offering to sign over his 1/4.

However, he was previously demanding that his investment in the company be returned to him upon divorce and had suggested that that amount be subtracted from the equity I was owed - which would have left me with about 1/3 of the equity in the house as my "D settlement".

It's been made crystal clear in all of the documents he's seen over the past 48 hours that there is no money left in the company and we'd both lose our investments.

So it sounds as though he's basically acknowledging that and freeing up the house equity - offering to take it out of the divorce negotiations - since otherwise it's going to go to me in the divorce settlement anyway, but too late to do any good at that point. And he is pledging his remaining share.

Is this because he now understands that his insistence on filing the divorce is what caused the meltdown? Is this guilt? that's hard to believe - is he trying to buy his way out of guilt? That's easier to believe...

The only thing he can possibly hope to get out of this is maybe an agreement from me not to force him to file his financials - which my attorney will never agree to, and neither would I - beause he's afraid the adultery will come out in black and white. But, in MO, that would only result in a 60-40 split instead of a 50-50 split - and if the house is out of the settlement, the 60/40 is going to be equal to 50/50, for all intents and purposes.


I need help, MBers. I'm way too close and way to emotional to have a clue how to interpret this.

What does this mean for the marriage? Anything? What does it mean for the effectiveness of Plan B? Anything?

I realize I have to sort out the financials and you can't help me do that - but just from the MB point of view, what could this mean? What's my strategy here?

HELP, PLEASE. I'm so floored by everything over the past couple of weeks I know I cannot see the forest for the trees at this point.

At least I'm coming here BEFORE I act, this time!!!

- M

HELP, PLEASE!!!

I'd say too little too late. It's probably dawning on him how much MORE he stands to lose. Sorry, I wouldn't settle for just the equity. I believe you'd have good grounds on the suit for breach of fiduciary duty. But I'm not an attorney, I've only worked for them for 20 years, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Mirium,

I agree with PM. At least I wouldn't take it to give up something else. If you can take it with no strings attached, take it and run.

I wouldn't read anything into this regarding the M. If he is doing this, he is doing it with selfish motives. Trying to protect his posterior in some way.

Let your atty handle everything!!!! Until he complies with the terms of your PBL, he is a WAYWARD. Do not negotiate with him until....

I emailed to let him know I received the message but was not willing to talk. I then talked about exploring the financial implications with creditors, including looking at solutions I'd previously ruled out. I then referred him back to his attorney.

He responded by using my intermediary - where he promptly overplayed his hand. He told the IM it was now "time to talk directly" because he had "a solution for everyone"...he would sign over equity in the house (2/3 of which is mine; gonna give me back my own money, plus a little of his) - plus he said "there had been mention that the divorce was causing the problem with credit" (like he just forgot I had told him of this back in the fall) - so he had seen his attorney and knew we could settle the divorce by Friday, if we would just sit down and talk through it, and that would solve my problems and meet my deadline for the SBA program.

He has not yet responded to the divorce complaint - which is required within 30 days - we're at 40. My attny sent him a letter Friday advising him to file a response by this Fri or face sanctions. And prior to yesterday, when I found out about the new terms and gave up on this particular SBA program, we were also driving toward a Friday deadline for the SBA loan.

So, suddenly he wants to settle by Friday, ostensibly to make it possible for me to pursue the SBA program - which, if I can get the equity out of the house, I don't want to pursue because there are other options!!

It's clear he's angling for his "one fell swoop" divorce - this is now the 3rd time he's tried.

How generous of him.

I promptly called my attorney - we're tagging up tomorrow.

I sent a one word follow up to my previous email - "disregard". I then instructed my IM to send him back a message that said she had gotten his message and had "transmitted to Miriam - who acknowledged reception and said she'd follow up with her attorney and financial advisors tomorrow."

And that's IT. No more contact. I plan to tag with my attorney tomorrow (don't really need the financial advisor), have my IM stand by, and then sit back and wait to see if he files by Friday.

So, here's what I think:

1) He wants his 'get out of jail almost-free card' ASAP and sees an opportunity here to pull it off, by capitalizing on my no-holds-barred attempt to save the big contract and the company. Mind you, he caused the problem in the first place.

2) He is HIDING SOMETHING - why else the resistance to filing financials, the full-court-press to settle the divorce by Friday - just incidentally, the day he has been told he has to file a response by - hmmmmm? He's claiming it is to save my SBA loan by coming up with the required amount of money and by fixing the divorce uncertainty in the credit applications.....right....

The problem here is that he _will_ end up as a principal of my company because of the divorce laws in this stupid state, unless I change my filing to adultery and go to court - which will cost me lots and lots of dollars and a couple of years. And in the meantime I have to deal with him in the company.

What this basically boils down to is whether I'm willing to "trade" getting my company free and clear in a divorce settlement - for him being able to keep his secret, whatever it is. He's going to lengths to avoid disclosing it. And it HAS to be financial - because that's what the filings are all about. I figure it's either information that will implicate him further re: marital misconduct, OR it is something I didn't know about that would impact the division of property.

Not sure I'm going to _have_ a company at the end of this. But, I sort of "crossed the Rubicon" last night when I melted down and came to terms with that, somewhat. And then today, I got agreements from everyone not to sue us (he doesn't know that and doesn't need to.) With that, I might not even end up in bankruptcy if I can hang on for another month. If he wants to claim the company in the divorce I'm going to make him pay for half the cost of a forensic accountant to value it. Meanwhile, PrincessMeggy thinks I could have a case against him in Texas for breach of fiduciary responsibility by insisting on filing a divorce in the fall, despite having been told by me that it could endanger our ability to get the contract. I figure he also wants to get out because he doesn't want to get stuck with bankruptcy costs.

So, I'm back to "one day at a time". And Plan B. Y'all were right. Right now my plan is to talk to my attorney and tell him what I learned from my IM tonight, compare notes, plan strategy...which for me at this point is to wait on WH to either file a response or fail to respond, at which point we'll start the ball rolling on sanctions. Re; the company - I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing but I'm not going to rush to try to get back on the contract. The shakier it looks, the better - the less likely he is to fight for it (I think) - or the easier for me to shut down. If I've lost the contract, I've lost it.

It's interesting, considering how upset I was last night - I'm calmer tonight - almost calm, in fact. I'm sad, but centered.

Thanks again for all of your help. The saga continues...but my own goal now is to focus on my life in the here-and-now and just let the rest of the legal garbage play out.

- M

Just a quick update -

Friday came and went. I'll find out in the next couple of days if WH filed his response to my divorce filing (aka, disclosed his finances.) If so, then I guess we start looking at the whole picture. I'm in no hurry. If not, then my attorney will file for sanctions.

After my last posts there was additional communication to intermediary from WH. She decided not to pass it along except to say that she thinks he is genuinely upset about the trouble the business is in. She believes he had rationalized his affair and divorce by telling himself that it was for the better for both of us; that I would move away and have my friends and my business. Now it ain't necessarily so. He was really upset that I hadn't contacted him before re: the business; that he had invested in it in many ways (true) and he felt he deserved to know what was happening.

I've been dark since then. Pitch black.

On a topic that is probably related, because of the timing...per an earlier discussion with folks here about my internet presence - I decided not to drop off Facebook, Twitter, etc., but to (a) block anyone with his emails, (b) set up both sites up so that anyone wanting to "follow" me has to ask my permission, and (c) set up a reciprocal service that follows anyone who follows me (another attempt to avoid spoofing.) Previous to the contact about the business, there had been no attempt to follow me on any of these sites. Last Tuesday, however, he tried to follow me on Twitter by changing his 'handle'. Took me a couple of days to find it (during which he followed me) but then booted him off.

Funny - didn't bother me at all to find him there (but I don't want him to continue.) Obviously, he wasn't out to provoke me or harass me because he was doing this in "stealth" mode. Does anyone have experience with this - are WS's looking for data to use in divorce, for example? I know no one can tell me what he was doing - just curious about other cases.

Hope everyone is well.

- M

Hi Miriam,

I just stopped by your post and am so thankful that you found the time and the inclination to help me!

I am left touched and inspired by your strength and your humour in such a bleak situation. You have been a pillar of strength and whatever happens, you will be the one to come out on top!

I can't offer any advice (I'm in such a mess myself) other than pass this on:-

It is wise to keep in mind that neither success nor failure is ever final. (R Babson)

Thank you, 2M2L.

Stay the course. Get free of toxicity in the form of WH's.


Sounds good, huh.

I have a situation coming up and am looking for advice.

Our divorce "case conference" is on Feb. 2. I'm flying into town and spending two nights in a hotel. (First, it galls me that I'm paying for a hotel while OW is sleeping in my house with my WH. I've had intense fantasies of walking into the house unannounced and ordering her out, and calling the cops if she doesn't comply. But the truth is, as much as I REALLY LIKE the fantasy, it's a fantasy - wouldn't go that way, probably, and I don't need the damn drama.)

I'm going in a day early so I can spend time with my stepson and see my dogs (he'll bring them to me.) That's all OK; I'm looking forward to spending time with him - and them.

It's the case conference I'm thinking about.

How do I interact with WH? Totally ignore him? I'm in Plan B (except for when I broke it over business issues; not a peep from me since). He may ask about the business - he has a right to do so, and it's incumbent upon me to answer. Right now I'm thinking I will just say (in a civil, pleasant tone) that we should discuss that "at the table", so to speak, and then let my lawyer lead. That's why I'm paying him.

I guess with regard to other interaction around the meeting - I don't plan to approach him first and he will probably ignore me. I expect to be cold shouldered and treated rudely - which would make reciprocating easy - but I don't know that I want to be that way. I want to be civil and dignified. I want to be relaxed and confident and laid back. I don't want to be drawn into any discussions with him. I'm there to "do business" and get out.

He's in a romantic affair, so I'm pretty sure he's not ever going to look back (based on his history). Still, I want to balance between holding firm, maintaining my boundaries, and not LBing in any way. The best possible outcome for me would be for me to think that I looked attractive and behaved in a self-confident and appealing way but gave absolutely NO sign of weakness (especially since the last interaction with me, albeit in print, was when I was freaked out about the business. No more freaking out.)

Advice? For those of you who have been through this sort of thing - suggestions?

Thanks,

- M

I had the same questions. In the end, I looked my Goddess best and let the atty's do the talking. I didn't even look WH's way. Your atty should speak for you whenever possible.

The OW living in YOUR house even before you are D'd? What does that say about her?

Have you watched The Jane Austen Book Club?

Fabulous movie about his affair, separation, new lives...

Then he begs her to let him come home.

Beautifully written. You will laugh and cry and regardless of what happens at your meeting, you will be fabulous and divine and looking amazing. Nothing confuses the WH's more than seeing you glowing without them and without needing them.

Chai -

Thanks. I like your "Goddess best" reference.

Re: OW - should have been clearer. She's spending the weekends there and sometimes the weeknights. She's not living there because my WH thinks that's unwise until the divorce is settled. (Her ExH got in touch with me this week and dropped that little tidbit.) The two of _them_ (OW and OWxH) are living in their house. He wants out but can't afford it, the house went to the two of them in the D, and with the housing market the way it is....

When he gets mad at her (daily) he yells at her to go move in with my WH - and she says that's not possible now, because of pending D, etc. From other things she's said, it's clear that the two of them (WH and OW) have extensive plots and plans to get me out of their lives as soon as possible with as little muss and fuss as possible.

As for what all this says about her - pretty obvious, isn't it? She was meeting with him for dinner in front of his two youngest kids in my house all summer. She was schtupping him in my house. Etc.

(I woke up this morning in a total rage. I'm homeless except for a friend putting a roof over my head, my company's on the rocks, all because of my WH and his whore.)

Back to the conference. You didn't even look at him? What else? What type of attitude/demeanor did you adopt? - just looking for options to think about. Thanks!

- M

2M2L -

Thanks! I'll check it out!

- M

Quick update - will post to Dancin' Machine's thread, also -

I woke up both yesterday and today just full of rage. I mean FULL OF RAGE. At his maliciousness, thoughtlessness, selfishiness, stupidity, negligence...

You want out the marriage? Then ask for a divorce in a healthy way. DON'T destroy the marriage, the spouse, the kids - and the spouse's income, the family business...etc etc etc.

So - Charlotte - and Brit's Brat - I fired off an email to Shiny this afternoon. Gave him a rundown on the case and asked him to respond with a "yes, I'll do a consult" or "no, but here's someone else you should talk to." If he doesn't by Monday, I'll call. I don't know if he reads emails in a timely way (some folks don't). I told him I had no objection to pursuing a divorce in the state where I'm resident AND pursuing another lawsuit (re: Princess Meggy's suggestion about breach of fiduciary responsibility to the corporation) in another.

Don't know for sure that I want to do that yet. But I have no objection, either. And I certainly DO want to hear what the options are. PrincessMeggy has pushed me on this - I went and read the state laws - and it looks to my uneducated eye that there is a possibility she's right (and her eye is MUCH more educated than mine is in this regard.)

My state-of-residence is pretty much an "equitable division" state - even in the case of adultery it MIGHT go from 50-50 to 60-40 - and WH lost me $5.5M contract and has driven the company to the brink of bankruptcy, and me along with it. Somehow, 60-40 of the home, belongings, etc., just doesn't seem like its gonna get it.

But then again, I'm FULL OF RAGE. I'll probably wait until the case conference in two weeks to see how that goes before pursuing other options, if any. And I would have to get the two attorneys to coordinate.

Still....

- M

Hey Miriam, you sound good. Very good and very capable.

Wanna send some of that hard earned, healthy, taking care of yourself, anger my way. Just kidding.

You are in my thoughts and its an honor to know you and watch you blossom into a strong vibrant, go getting GODDESS.....