MBers:

My original post with the basic info is Plan B on Nov. 9, looking for support

Prior to going into Plan B, while still in A, I asked my WH if we could postpone the D filing. The reason? After 5 years of working really long weeks, traveling all the time, and setting up my marriage for an affair by not being there 1/2 the time, our company, which I run (he owns 20% as a "silent partner" - but might be able to grab 50% in the divorce) was in the running for a $5.5M contract, to run 5 years. The first year's income - $1.3M in revenues - would be many times the revenues we'd ever seen in one year. The whole point of the past 5 years was to build the company to this point, so we could start reaping the benefits, put $$ toward retirement, build a future on the profits, have a bit more personal freedom - etc.

But if we won the contract, we'd need a business Line of Credit (LoC) for about 150-175K to handle the payroll for the first 3 cycles, until our invoices to the company hiring us started getting paid. Let me quickly add that this is a federal subcontract, guaranteed to reimburse my company for every dime expended even if the gov't up and cancels the thing. No risk to banks. BUT - in the current credit market, knowing what happens to women during divorce re: credit applications (that's well documented), I was very concerned that filing divorce prior to the contract award - and therefore prior to the application - would be the kiss of death to the request for credit.

WH - who knows very little about small business - was at the point where he was openly contemptuous and distrustful of everything I said. I explained the reasons and my concerns the first time, and he dismissed me. I asked a second time - and he was frankly skeptical, then later threatened to file if I didn't. My attorney made it clear that if he filed first I'd lose control of the process, and after a 2nd consult with Steve Harley, I capitulated and filed.

We won the contract. I applied for the LoC. And on Christmas Eve the bank called to say the LoC had been denied. Reason? Financial uncertainty re: personal assets/cash flow and business assets, due to the pending divorce. (Everything else - business plan, repayment plan, personal and corporate credit ratings - all great.) In the current credit market, that's all it took.

Credit denied.

Friday I called and notified the prime contractor that we had failed to obtain funding - and asked them to do whatever they had to do to make certain the new employees I'd just hired were covered.

Monday they called back to ask my permission to withdraw the contract award, which would enable them to transfer the work to another contractor - and the employees along with it. The contract starts Jan 1 - there was no time to work options - and my priority was to take care of the employees - so I said yes.

Now it's all gone. Because of WH and OW, I/we have lost $1.3M in revenues next year, more than $5.5M in 5 years. My company is on the brink of bankruptcy, since I made significant capital investments in infrastructure and business processes out of internal company funds to get ready for the subcontract. The company can't pay me a salary in Jan - maybe I'll get one in Feb - but if there isn't a big change by then, the company will be in Chap 11 - and I'll be following suit in a month or so.

In short, I've lost EVERYTHING - marriage, family, home, pets, future, company, livelihood. I'm living with a friend because I haven't got any $$ to do anything else; all my money is tied up in the house.

I'll spare you the rest.

I'm wavering on alot of fronts.

1) I'm wavering about sending him a letter via a intermediary - a "just the facts" kind of letter, no commentary - stepping him through the events of the past week. I want him to understand that whatever bargaining chip he thought he had as part owner (maybe half owner) of the company is gone. If he's got a brain (but oops, he's a wayward...) - he should understand without being told that I can sue him in this state, where the company is headquartered, for his part in all this - quite aside from the divorce in another state. (He probably won't realize that unless he's told, though.)

In short, I want him to be really scared. I want him to be really worried. And I want him to be as miserable in his affair and as aware of its costs as I can possibly help him to be.

- but - I have no clue as to whether the letter would have that effect. For all I know he's decided he hates my guts and would stand up and cheer - although, of course, he's shot himself in the foot - he's going to lose those revenues, too. Had we stayed together, we would have gotten the loan easy.

A friend of mine quipped that, at $5.5M, his adultery is one of the most expensive affairs she'd ever heard of outside of Hollywood or Washington, DC.

Even as a wayward, I think he might grasp that part - the part about how much money he's lost. If he does grasp that, then there's something else he might want to know:

The prime contractor could sue us, by all rights. But instead, they're actually offering to invite the company back in if we can get our financial act together. There's no way - no time - to do that unless we dropped the divorce. Should he know about that? Should I communicate that? Would it put pressure on the affair to realize he's literally giving up millions in revenues for OW? And that it's not too late to pull something out of the fire if he'd quit the damn A and come home, figuratively speaking? I'm really looking for a variety of opinions here - please jump in!

2) I'm wavering because I want to quit my marriage entirely. And then I don't. I want to declare complete, total, scorched earth adultery-based divorce-type war - change the filing, name him and his adultery partner, haul them both + OWexH and their adult children in and force them to testify. I'm totally devastated...all the trauma of the affair and subsequent events - and now this. Why bother fighting for my M? Hasn't too much happened?

Then I think - I don't want to do "scorched earth" thing because I'm afraid I'll regret it in 10 years - or in 2. I have to live with ME. I want the best deal I can get, don't get me wrong, and I'm willing to push to get it. But isn't there a limit as to how much we hurt other people who are already hurting (the OWH and kids)? And why do I still think I would work with him if he would do a REAL 180? but I do think so. Is there something wrong with me?

3) Then there's another part of me that wants to quit fighting for the company. I'm 51 1/2. I've put everything into it - my entire retirement savings, 100K, 5 years of my life and, according to WH, my marriage. (I buy that only in part; we had an agreement about the total time we'd keep going that way and he violated it secretly and devastatingly.) I'm tired spiritually, emotionally, physically. I could just shut it down, walk away, get a divorce, and try to find another job - one at 40 hrs/week, not 85-90, with a good retirement program...wherever I could, and doing whatever I could do. Free of all the b.s. Of course I'd be labeled a failure (it's a small community) and I'm not a quitter, so it rankles me...but I am REALLY tired.

4) And finally, I want to quit. Like, QUIT. Like, not wake up. Or grab my car keys and just vanish.

Not to worry - I'm not actively suicidal. Or crazy (well, maybe crazy). But I don't want to be here - and I feel so much despair. Happy New Year.

I know there's nothing you can do. But any thoughts would be appreciated. Hell, any responses would be appreciated.

And thank you.

- M

M: My heart goes out you! I'm not a business person by any sense, but it seems to me if your hubby would understand the situation (him getting some $$$ out of the business), he might want to drop the D=papers, at least for a while.

But remember, he's in the fog, and foggy people don't do things that are "normal."

I'm one of those who keeps on trying (gee, just look at my case after DDay#2, as in SECOND affair by my WW). Keep trying to get him on your side business wise until you have lost all opportunity. At least will have tried. If you don't try there is no hope of gaining the financing and contract.

I'm not one for e-mails or letters. Best is the face-to-face, that way there is no written or video record to come back and haunt you in court of law.

Just my opinion. Remember, I'm DDay + 6 days(!), so maybe I'm not in my right mind just yet

Hang in there!

So sorry you are going through this. It's exactly what happened to me with my business. I was just about to get it to profitabilty when all of this happened. I too have lost almost everything because of this A. We had to sell the house at a huge loss, I've had to make the business support me when it really can't (you know, it's a rob Chai to pay suppliers, rob suppliers to pay Chai kind of thing). I've really ended up farther in debt trying to stay afloat. Then atty fees are killing me.

Will explaining all of this to your WH help? Maybe. Maybe not. I couldn't explain it to mine. Whatever happens, they will turn it around and it will be 100% your fault. All they care about at the moment is being with OP.

I would give it a try though. Maybe you can get through. If not, well, at least you'll know.

And one more thing. Always take the high road. Conduct yourself with grace and dignity at all costs. You won't ever regret that.

Hi ChaiLover,

I'm new here, but have poked around for some time after I stumbled across MB through another site.

I just wanted you to know that I really feel for you with what's happening to your business. Like you, I am the mistress of my own domain, so to speak, having recently started a business venture of my own. I, too, am investing everything I have to my name to ensure its success, and I would be equally heartbroken to see it all fall to pieces.

You sound like a strong woman, and I'm betting that "this, too, shall pass." I'm rooting for you.

I am very sorry you find yourself in this position. I can't imagine your frustration, your pain over the A yes, but this is obviously a whole other ball game.

Truly I think possibly that the loan being denied may seem like a bad thing, but maybe a move of divine providence on your behalf. Yes the sting of the amount of finances you could have had is hard, but it is my understanding that no one should enter financial contract or agreements with someone they cannot trust. For obvious reasons you cannot trust your H.

You sound like a resourceful person, have you thought about finding venture capitalist as opposed to traditional financing? That might be an idea. But again, my worry is for you to be in any kind of agreement with your spouse at this time.





I think you made a noble choice to take care of your employees, you are a just employer and I know God will reward that.



You have indeed lost those things I will not deny that. But you sound like a go getter and a fighter and you must be an intelligent person as well to run this company so guess what IF and I am only saying IF you lose the company you can start again. And you can buy another house and more pets.

God obviously created you to be an entrepreneur so do it again. Once you know how to create wealth just 1 time, its just duplication from there one right?

Donald Trump went bankrupt and look at him now. This is not the end for you. I would rather see you in your own company hidden under a corporation where your H has no rights to it since you don't technically own a company because its hidden under the protection of the Corp.

And my dear you also have love from your friend and family which is priceless and you also have your health. Take care of your self right now in the health dept because you can start again in the business arena if you had to.





Protect yourself financially in what ever way you can. I know you want H to understand but I don't think he's gonna get it through his selfish fogged brain. He's in selfish mode and no matter what you say he's not gonna get it.





Hey I certainly can understand the wanting him to be miserable thing and I'm all for it! But do you really want your H to come back because he is scared financially or do you want him to come back because he is remorseful or repentant? If he comes back because of the wrong heart he will do it again.

Yeah you might have gotten the loan, but again you can't see ahead of you and maybe you were just saved from much worse.



Money can come and money can go but dignity is better in my book and it sounds like you have taken the high road.


Again, If he comes back for money he is not coming back for you. Is that what you want? If he comes back for that reason, its doomed in my book. I would think he would secretly continue the A because he's not coming back for his marriage hes coming back for money. Thats just my opinion and the Vets here may be better at addressing this than myself.



Its completely normal to waiver, I do! I think we all do go back and forth but no one, not even here at MB, can tell us when enough is enough. The only thing that has helped me is that I have read in numerous places that when a crisis hits, death or affair etc. that you should not make any life decisions for 1 year because of the range of emotions. You could very well make a bad decision based on emotions and not on wisdom. Only you will know when is when.

I live in California and i would love the opportunity to name my H and file suit, IF, I have to go that route but I cannot as we are not a fault state. But believe me if I was I would use it to my advantage. You H would do it to you in a second if the roles were reversed and really thats basic sowing and reaping, what you do comes back to you.


You my dear are NOT responsible for the OWH or her kids, that is bearing false responsibility. You are responsible for your family and should you lose your desire to fight for the marriage and have to go the divorce route, you must protect yourself.

Its not crazy to work with him again If he did a 180 and it was genuine and he abides by all your conditions then No your not crazy that's your H.

But take heed, you must push aside some emotions as you are a business woman. You must use wisdom at all costs. Be wise, seek counsel from business men or women. Don't make decisions based on emotions when it comes to business, if you do it will bite you in the end. Your H is watching out for himself and himself alone. He is not in a place to protect you or care for you so you had better do it for yourself. It may change one day, but its not that day yet. Be wise.




Man I know your tired cuz I'm stinking tired and all the ways you've mentioned.

I can see how you would want to dissolve the business. You are still young and can create wealth again. I promise you, you can do it. It takes just 1 time and then all it is is duplication. It might even be smart to so you can incorporate as a sole entity aside of your H but you really need to seek counsel from business men or business lawyers.

Girl if your a failure then so is Donald Trump. But he didn't let that stop him he lost it all and he gained it again. It does not matter what the community says that't not your worry. Prove them wrong and it was not your choices that caused this and maybe they need to know that.

I hear that you are tired. You need to do some self care. Take a bath, go for a walk, take a nap, watch a movie, do something-I know you said your money is tied up so I suggested things that don't cost anything.



I know as I have said the same darn thing myself and I've read in many books that it is normal to feel that way. Get some counseling if you need to.

I have chosen to do things to ward off depression naturally as I did not want to take the medication route. Just personal preference.

Exercise will greatly help you raise your endorphin levels to ward off depression. Pull yourself up and go for a vigorous walk several times a week.

Surround yourself with positive people.

Eat well and drink plenty of fluids.

And if your not already re-connect spiritually. If you haven't gone to church in a while maybe consider it.

Just my 2 cents....When all our lives are said and done, the things we thought we important we will find weren't so important and really our relationship with God was the highest priority.

Not sure if I helped at all, just know your thought of and supported.

{{{{HUGS}}}}

Thank you, DNU1 & Chai. I'm sorry that both of you are going through what you are going through. Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Both of you suggested that I try to talk with WH about this. I'm in TX, he's in MO. I've got FF miles so can pop up there with little difficulty and little cost. I suppose I'd have my intermediary contact him and set up a meeting. It would probably need to be in this next week.

I would want to meet with him in as business-like a setting as possible - so could look into a local hotel (and try not to wonder if it was one of their rendevous spots!) and see if I could grab a conference room to just step through the issues. (Thinking out loud here)

I suppose the most basic question I have has to do with Plan B. I've had no direct contact with him at all since Nov. 9. This would mean breaking Plan B for long enough to have the meeting.

I'm pretty sure I can put my business face on to get through the meeting, but its sure going to cost me emotionally and bring up all the trauma again. Since he's had two more months with OW and I would be "intruding on his life" to have this discussion, I expect him to be at least as hostile, sarcastic and disrespecful as before - probably more.

Of course, I can set a limit on that cr*p as soon as it pops up - and I can tell him that we can either discuss this in a civil way or I will make all further decisions unilaterally. But I think I need help to sort out the costs/benefits of breaking Plan B vs. trying to communicate with a wayward about the damage he's doing to me and to himself financially.

Does breaking Plan B to do this further reduce any possibility of recovering the marriage? (I already know that it will set me back, personally.)

He'd really have to agree to call off the D for this to matter at all. That means messing with his plans for the OW.

2ndly, he'd have to agree to sign for a SBA 7(a) loan, and to personally guarantee his percentage of it. He had a fit when he found out I'd personally guaranteed a line of credit for 10K (?!) because he was worried about what would happen if I couldn't pay it. This is an LoC for 15x that much!

I think I'm talking myself out of this.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't just chalk up the business and financial devastation as more evidence of the damages wrought by his affair, pass all of it along to my attorney, and press my attorney to press WH's attorney to finish the d*mn D ASAP.

Then if I still have a company, I can re-apply for a LoC and see if I can get anywhere with whatever assets I still have (if any).

I probably won't still have a company. It may mean losing everything - but I've already lost everything.

At least it would keep me dark, which is where I'd rather be. I spoke with my stepson this afternoon and just knowing WH was the in the same room at the house left me in tears for 15 minutes after hanging up.

Still thinking...

Also, Chai, thanks for reminder about taking the high road. I do strive to live that way and have managed this mess that way so far, except for a couple of nasty moments when I lashed out. I have to live with myself in the end, and I believe we each have a responsibility to set an example for those around us. Part of Jewish tradition...we are solely responsible for our own behavior, and we are accountable to others for it.

So sorry for your situation. Unfortunately, I doubt that the "dollars and cents" talk will do any good. And you say he doesn't have a business sense. Guess what? My WS has a HUGE business sense (banker) and has always been anal about our credit rating.

During A (with is continuing), we are now -- for the first time ever -- deep in debt. Seems POSOW needed help with her business and WH was happy to comply with our credit cards, savings and line of credit. Add to that the vacations, fancy resturants, shopping sprees at Victoria's Secret, etc.

Spouse, kids, respect, morals, reputation, God, etc. and MONEY do not matter to WSs as long as there is OP in their lives. They all think they can "live on love."

Trying:

Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. I was beginning to think about _some_ of the same things (not as thoroughly as you) as I responded to DNU1 and Chai. That's why I posted - people like the three of you are so helpful. I have a bad habit of just chasing things around in my head.

I think I agree with you about just getting free and clear. And you may also be right about Divine Providence. If I had gotten the funding I'd be locked in a power struggle to try to get him the heck out of the company during the divorce proceedings - but then the company would be pulling in lots of revenues and he'd be holding on hard. Plus,the idea of that snarky*(&*)&@!! getting her hands on even 1 dollar of my hard-earned gains make me want to throw up. She's got everything else; I'll be d*mned if she's gonna get this, too.

I get your point about WH coming back for the wrong reasons, but I don't think I care why he comes back - however, I would care completely about what he does once he gets here. I guess I was just thinking about one of the case studies in SAA, where the WW came back precisely because of the money situation. I'm under the impression that whatever brings waywards back to the table is a good thing, but it's just a first step; real recovery entails alot more than just coming back to the table. But I could have misunderstood this. Maybe the vets will help us out here. Calling Melody/Mark/Pep et. al!!!!

Maybe this is just one more lesson in letting go - giving up control to G-d and trusting. I've been working 12 steps since Sept - first in MO and then in TX - did it many years ago and find it tremendously helpful. I certainly need the lessons, no question. Entrepeneurs (and psychologists, and engineers, and Ph.D.s, and Adult Children - and I'm all five!!) are not exactly "laid back" kinds of people. Finding that centered place and learning to breathe deeply within it is a big part of my own recovery plan from all of this agony - and that's about me getting better for me (and those I love and who love me).

I also take your point about not taking responsibility for OWexH and their kids. You're right. I'm focused on protecting my (step)kids and have been since the whole thing surfaced. I've done alot better that than WH and OW, who did alot of damage and are still doing it. They matter to me more than just about anything else.

I'm feeling a little better.

-M

Thank you. I think you're probably right.

This is helping me. Alot.

I don't think I would fly to see him. He is probably still very foggy.

But I would send him a letter about what has transpired. Of course, he will STILL blame it all on you, but later he may think about things.

It is too bad you lost the government contract. I work for the government in contracting, and some people do very well.

One of our contractors is a woman from Argentina who married an American and came here 8 years ago and started her own construction company. She is now a millionaire several times over. She says the hardest part was learning English.

Believer -

Thanks for your input. I've been on the contractor side - as an independent consultant, a small biz owner (2X), a prime contractor biz development person, a prime contractor sr. tech manager, a univ. professor - for more than 20 years. This time around it's only taken 5 years to get to a first tier subcontractor slot with a really big gov't prime. My WH works for another really big gov't prime so he knows the score to some extent.

Re: your construction contractor - our work is less "tangible" - consulting in strategic planning, strategic communications, org development & training on the biz side and in specialized engineering, technology assessment, and advanced systems design on the other side of the company. None are as lucrative as construction has been - we've basically just made a go of it until this year, when we finally "converted" the company. I'm glad she's done so well!

Your suggestion is in the middle between letting it go and going to see him. I've pretty much ruled out the face-to-face because I just don't want the hassle and suspect that my physical presence is just going to provoke him (if not, his fogged-out presence is just going to upset me.) I'll think about the letter. Writing a letter to him was my first instinct and I've already drafted one that goes as far as a "just the facts" step-by-step of what's happened and why, with no commentary. I didn't get to the "here's what I'd like to propose" part yet.

Maybe I should talk with my divorce lawyer before doing anything? He'll be back in the office on Monday. Nothing's going to happen business-wise between now and then - no reason to act - and it looks like the prime is going to give me some time to think about all this anyway - they're not in a hurry since the contract has already been transferred; they're OK with the gov't.

The only thing I really have to do between now and Monday is decide whether to come on to the contract as a (grossly underpaid) consultant - they're offering $50.00/hr less than my usual gov't consulting rate, but then again I'd be contracting as a sub to another sub and I understand the pricing issue. The good thing about the offer is that it would be a reliable 20 hrs/wk which would give me time to work the other issues plus do other consulting - in other words, it might keep me going personally and buy some time. I won't have health insurance, but between now and the finalization of the divorce my WH has to keep me on his, anyway.

I'm digressing ("babbling" is a better word). I'm going to go back again and look at my draft so far.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

- M

Gosh, I don't know what to advise you. So much of it is a matter of luck - at least where I work.

It is supposed to be so open, but a lot of it depends on who you know. Sad to say that.

Believer -

Not to worry - this is the wrong forum to be looking for biz advice Not that I know it all - I learn new stuff daily - but I get paid to give acquisition/contract pursuit consultation to other gov't contractors - and my hit rate is pretty good.

What I really needed is what you gave - the input about the letter and being fogged out in person. I'm still thinking about that.

- M

You're right. Sounds like you know what you are doing.

I'm not a good one to talk to about the whole contracting thing because I turned my boss in for an ethics violation and now he is working on getting rid of me after a 30 year career.

But I would send the letter. And I'm amazed that your husband doesn't appreciate your acquistion gifts. What a dummy.

He used to appreciate them. He loaned money to start the company - so he did more than appreciate them; he put his money where his mouth was.

But then ... too much travel during which I absolutely did neglect him (but he also looked for excuses not to support me when I was out of town) - then him falling off the wagon, then OW...you get the picture.

Good on ya' for turning your boss in for ethics violations. There are whistle blower laws - any help from that quarter, for you? Hang in there.

- M

Yeah, I know about the whistleblower laws. But turns out that one must get an attorney. And I found an expert, who will only charge me $57,000 to get whistleblower protection.

But anyway, no loss to me because I CAN retire, just having trouble letting it all go. I always thought that doing the right thing paid off in the end.

But enough T/J'ing.

If your hubby believed in you before, there is still lots of hope. I would write him a very nice letter, and let him know how disappointed you are because you came soooooooo close. But don't blame him or the divorce.

You might want to post it here first for vetting.

I agree with B. Writing a letter would be best. It sounds as though a F2F would be too tough on you. I worked with Jennifer early on, and she said for any necessary communications in Plan B, just state your case, be business-like and brief.

I guess my question to you is this. You have only been M to this man for 6 years and you have step children, so are you his second M? I guess I'm wondering about his past. Does he have a history of cheating? If you are the 3rd spouse or even the 4th, it sure looks like he doesn't value the marital relationship much. In that case I would ask if you really want him back.

Just thinking out loud....

Hi, Chai -

It'll be 7 years in March, and we were together for 2 1/2 years before that. His kids were 12, 13, 15 & 16 when I took them on; they're 21, 22, 24 and 25 now.

Yes, I'm the second wife, and he's my second husband. He waited 18 years since his divorce, and I waited 8 since mine. Your question about his past is dead on, however - yes, he left his first wife, and then had an affair before finally divorcing her. The affair lasted about a year.

In both cases, then and now, he was using when he had the affair. He was hospitalized as an inpatient for alcohol addiction in the early nineties when it finally overtook all aspects of his life. In our case, he was attentive and supportive until last year, when he began to slip off the wagon. (Also, I was traveling 2/3 of the time, which put a hell of a strain on the relationship. And I put us on "autopilot". I've got things to learn, too.)

I was raised in an alcoholic home and had told him from the beginning of our relationship that if he relapsed, I would stand by him, but ONLY if he chose to get help and work on it. When he began to relapse, I asked him to go to treatment (2 or 3 times over several months). He was afraid he would lose his job. I think the fear was real; he does really really top secret work - but it was also an excuse, as he could have found another job. Instead, he entered into the affair as a distraction, - started PA and then became EA, rather than the other way around - rather than make the tough choices he needed to make to address the real problems, both re: his addiction, and our marriage.

My conditions for letting him back into my life are (a) the usual "terminate all contact with OP for life" - and in his case, because they work in the same company, he'd have to quit his job - at least at that location, maybe not the company (it's a global company) and probably move out the of state to reassure me, plus do the whole "verifiably transparent" thing - and then (b) commit to long term alcohol recovery work. Like, for life. And I gotta have both, not just termination of the affair and NC with OP. Not enough in his case.

For him, that's setting the bar really high - so if he were willing to meet those requirements, I'd be persuaded enough to START discussions about recovery...then maybe to move into work on recovery...but it would be one step at a time, and I'd have to see some pretty drastic action up front. I think the odds of that are surpassingly low. On the other hand, I was a therapist for 12 years, and much as I tried I could never quite get that darn crystal ball to work properly. So I don't want to close the door entirely..."There are always possibilities", Spock once said. <Need an icon with pointed ears>

However, in the meantime I have been completely dark, and I want to stay there for as long as it takes for me to resolve my feelings and move on. That's one of the reasons why this situation is really difficult for me.

And I don't mind you asking or thinking out loud about this or anything. I think that's why we're all here.

- M

Believer -

Sorry about the attorney. I'm a fan of Boston Legal - "Alan" wasn't kidding when he described attorneys as basically nasty people doing all kinds of nasty things.

As for letting go - hmm - more of the same theme as is often found here (on these boards) - just a different venue, yes? Still, I can imagine it is very hard to contemplate.



Re: letter - I think I can avoid "blaming" the divorce - and can certainly avoid mentioning or blaming him - but the failure to obtain credit WAS because of the uncertainty re; my financials and the corporate structure coming out of the divorce proceedings. I can say that in a very matter of fact way but I'm not sure I can or should avoid mentioning it. He's probably going to see that as a shot no matter how neutral I am. On the other hand, I warned him specifically that this could happen, in precisely the way it did, so if he recalls that (I won't mention it) this shouldn't be a complete surprise. A shock, yes. Surprise, no.

What are your thoughts about the fact that this is breaking Plan B? Am I giving him a mixed message - a PBL that says "NC in either direction except through intermediaries" - and now I'm contacting him directly?

My conditions for resuming contact of any type were (a) he terminate the relationship (with all the usual stringent conditions - in his case he'd have to quit his job and move, although I've never discussed that) and (b) he go into long-term alcohol recovery work, whether he's drinking or not.

I don't want to open the door to exceptions - but now I'm violating the rule myself. If I don't want a response except under the rules I set up (and I don't) - but I do want to take the opportunity to remind him that the door is open to return (which I do) - could I say something in closing like -

"In the letter I wrote as I left, I said that I didn't want any contact between us unless certain conditions were met. Thank you for respecting those boundaries. I do not want to give a mixed message; my need to limit contact will not change as long as your affair continues.

However. I made this exception because the loss of a contract worth $5.5M is a major event in both our lives. You were a part of the company and deserve to understand what happened. I believe that you wanted [company name] to succeed. I understand and share your regret if its failure has disappointed you, as it has me.

In closing - I still hope that we will rebuild our marriage some day. I want to live with, love and support you in person, rather than from afar, as we tried to for too much of our relationship. I continue to read, and to talk with and learn from couples who have recovered their marriages from much worse circumstances than ours - even when one or both partners have fallen in love with someone else in the throes of an affair.

I believe that the very best thing that could happen to us is to fall in love with and be the happiest we can be with the person we each chose to marry. That way, we need never be separated again when dealing with disappointment - or when celebrating joy."

The last two paragraphs are basically a restatement and slight expansion of a paragraph in the PBL. Given Chai's comment about Jennifer's advice to be short, simple and businesslike, I'm not sure that they should be included here.

Tell ya' what. It's probably not a good idea to critique the thing until it's a whole, rather than parts. I'll work on the letter and post it as you suggest...and hopefully you and Chai and several other folks will take a shot it - as well as continue the debate I'm having with myself as to whether it is worthwhile to break Plan B to do this.

Thanks again for your help.

And Happy New Year!

- M

Do not send a letter yourself. Since your lawyer advised you to cave to his insistence of the divorce, your lawyer can craft a termination of business letter, complete with the rejection letter, the potential for lawsuits and write it scary enough to know he's exposed right down to his short ones!

At the same time, Miriam - think about this.

Your business venture may be done. You may have put everything into this that you thought you had. Can I share with you a true reality?

Money can be created for anything. It's the easiest part. The creativity, the spark that created the company wasn't money. It's not government contracts now. It's you.

You need to completely separate your venture from your husband and the gift in this rejection from the lender allows you to end this company, end the marriage, separate from this malicious man in all ways, then get financial backing from a customer or a source who knows the company was you all along. So start a new venture. Clean and clear of his malicious meddling.

Know who you are in this moment and refuse to cave into the sorrow of the loss. This company loss will be the easiest loss for you to recover from in the long run. Companies can be created from nothing but that magic dust that you have within you! And your husband can't stop it.

Living well is the best revenge!

If I were you, I would go along the lines you are already thinking by having my attorney write him a letter, stating in plain, bald facts--completely emotionless (attorneys are good at that!)--that due to the pending divorce, you have lost this contract and are facing imminent bankruptcy. He might decide he's in a big toot to get the divorce through, rather than be caught in your financial troubles. Once you're shed of him, build your business back up again and he won't be able to benefit one iota from your success. And bad cess to him, too.

tl

KA:

Thanks for the support. I need to go play on the Plan B/KA thread...

What I'm getting from all this is that the choice about what to do should be guided entirely by what the _goal_ of the communication is. In engineering, we talk about "functional requirements" - what you want the thing to _do_ has to be understood before you can go about designing the thing and tthen building it.

"form follows function" - in biology.

All the same thing.

My letter, or a F2F meeting, or the lawyer's communication - seems to me that I have to decide what I'm after.

Here's what I know:

1) I am still committed to my M.
2) I am completely, totally unwilling to deal with an alcoholic and/or wayward H who remains in denial.
3) In fact, I'm totally unwilling to deal with a WH who is anything other than working toward recovery of the M.
- a quick note here - the H I knew was a loving, supportive, emotionally sensitive, smart human being. He had anger issues (all alcholics do) but never directed them at me. (That's OK - I tend to be overly analytical and a workaholic. We've all got issues.) He was a partner in the truest sense for several years...it all went bad when he started drinking again. I'm clear on the difference between my H, and the WH or AAH (actively addicted husband). My H and WH/AAH are two different people. I want the former and will not tolerate the latter. And I'm not deluded - the former may be gone forever from my life. Got it.
4) Re: the business - I am beginning to see the gift - as you put it - from the lender; it pushes me/enables me to make a decision about the company that could free me of his involvement. No matter what - even if he pulled everything together and came back - I don't want him in my business. So shutting the business down - got plenty of reason to now - has an obvious appeal.

BUT. Doing that also has a downside; there's a brand value that's been built up; there's a presence, a logo, publications, etc. - all of which contain "value" if you will, that's intangible but important. (On the other hand, the company uses my last name - which is not my husband's - so another permutation could probably be put together pretty easily.)

Still, seems to me that IF - and it's big IF - the current circusmtances can be used strategically by my attorney to convince my husband to get out without shutting down the company, that would be the best outcome.

What this discussion has done is re-vector me toward taking the day off tomorrow (what a concept!!), cleaning house, finishing off the champagne I opened tonight and resting my brain; then getting with the attorney early next week after I've cleared my mind and relaxed some.

KA, your voice is helpful tonight to remind me of the fact that the company truly is MINE - about me, created by me, reflects me - and I'll take that with me, no matter what I do - another company, or go to work for someone else, or go back to teaching. Whatever.

Ain't none of it about him.

Thank you.

Mirium,

First off, you are better staying dark. I can tell that contact would probably hurt you right now. Even though you want to recover your M, under the circumstances it is probably better to get your WH out of the business. His history shows that he just can't be trusted enough to manage it, and it sounds like he adds little or no value to it anyway. If you can get him out totally, you can step in, rebrand, recampaign, and come back even stronger because only YOU are in control. In a sense, it will be under "new" management.

In my case, my business is limping along. I'm managing to keep it going, how I don't know. Just plain old determination. Anyway, my WH wants nothing to do with it because he's convinced that it's going to fold. He's now even stating that he never wanted me to start it, blah, blah, blah in an attempt to rid himself of any responsibility. That's OK. Now, if the business were making lots of money, he would be claiming it was all his idea. After the D, I'll get more motivated to implement more of my ideas. I'm just not motivated to do it now. KWIM?

Your WH will probably want to rid himself of this boat anchor anyway (that is, if he THINKS it is a boat anchor). I think you can turn it around and really make a go of it, so I think you should give him this rare opportunity to rid himself of this horrible business now.

Mirium,

First off, I see you are in Texas. Are you by chance in Houston or anywhere near Houston? I have a killer divorce attorney in this area who will fight tooth and nail for you. Charlotte (aka Dancing Machine) is using him now, I used him for my D 4 years ago. In my case, there were several, non-financial issues that were highly technical and he just skated his way through them. For example, my XH left to return to his family of origin, which required us using an international treaty and asking the US State Department to petition the Crown to allow us to serve him with divorce papers. He knew how to do all of this! If you would like his name and number, post here and I will post my e-mail address for you to contact me.

Now, with regard to the financial situation. I am by no means a financial whiz kid and do not practice business law. BUT, that being said, I would get with whatever attorney - either your divorce attorney or your business attorney - and begin pursuing your XH, as a partner in the business, for breach of fiduciary duty to the business, resulting in revenues of $1.3 Million. A letter to this effect to your WH from an attorney may just scare the living jeebers out of him and kill the A. Either way, you owe it to yourself and your business to pursue him for this. Keep in mind a legal judgment cannot be dismissed in Bankruptcy, so if you have to take it to court and win, he loses out because it will follow him for the rest of his life and you will have first dibs on all his money - won't that burst OW's bubble?

Chai -

Hang in there on the business. I know what it's like to hold on by your fingernails - all business owners do. But it sounds like you've held on through incredible stresses. How close to youI hope you can get your idiot WH out pronto.

Chai, DNU1, KA, Believer, thndrnltng - all:

Woke up this morning terribly depressed. I haven't slept much more than 4 hrs/night since Christmas - so this was due to happen. I have a long history of cylical depression - and am one of the lucky ones, in that meds handle the issue - except for times of great stress. This is obviously one.

If I'm not sleeping again tonight I'll be hitting the doc up tomorrow...know from 30 years experience that regulating sleep is the key to regulating everything else for me. Will try to exercise too if I can get myself to the gym since that helps.

Even though depressed, brain is still working (too bad, really)- although pretty scattered, so I apologize if this is choppy. I want to thank you all for your inputs and thoughts - and ask you to check in for the next few days if you have the time and are willing to. I think I will be OK once I talk to attorney next week and finalize the plan.

Spent part of yesterday talking to banks. There are options to recover things - a SBA loan is the most likely - but every one of them involves WH. I agree with everyone. I cannot continue to have him in my business/professional life. Totally untrustworthy. Bad decision-making.

And hurtful.

Have to get him out before I can go forward even if it means shutting down the business. Can't wait for divorce resolution because I'll be personally bankrupt by then. Truth is he's never had to deal with the business side of things. I'm going to make him responsible for working his share of the whole meltdown - and then offer him a way out. I'll take the loss.


So, am going with the following -

1) Will talk with attorney on Monday or Tues - at his earliest available slot. Will ask him to write a letter per thndrnltng's and KA's suggestions. Short, to the point, emotionless - advising WH of what happened and why. Point him to the attached letter from me (see #3, below). Tell WH that his choices are (a) he can either stay in - and become involved in all negotations, accept all legal responsibility and liability, including costs (I've shielded him from all that for the life of the company in return for being a "silent" partner) - and he will have to hire his own lawyer here in TX since I won't help - or (b) accept a buyout of his shares for what he paid (400.00) and sign papers transferring all other interest in the company to me.

Will ask attorney to explain that this is happening NOW and can't wait for the divorce because the company (and I) will be in bankruptcy by then - and give him a deadline to act.

Finish off by saying that if he refuses, I'll file suit against him in the State of Texas for gross fiscal mismangement and corporate malfeasance (the former is obvious, re: the latter - well, he's an owner and a Board Member and he used his company cell phone to text OW thousands of times and conduct his affair; I have the phone records in detail.)

2) Include a brief statement about personal consequences: (a) I've lost all benefits as they have been covered by the contract;
(b) I've lost $XXX in salary; (c) Accounts receivable to company over next 90 days will have to go largely to creditors; remainder to me; will be facing personal bankruptcy by March.

Finally, tell him that we will be seeking to settle the divorce ASAP or he'll be involved in my personal financial meltdown as well.



3) Under Texas law, I also have to write him a letter, which I'm going to ask the attorney to attach to his. It will have the following:

- Brief statement of circumstances
- Account balance, accounts receivable, and accounts payable
as of Dec. 31.;
- Copies of all signed contracts/invoices for contract ramp up,
including benefits packages;
- Copy of PO (now invalidated) from Prime, covering hiring
costs;
- Copy of benefits negotiated, along with fees, and what company
is still responsible for now;
- List of all creditors, including names/phone numbers and
amounts;
- Letter from Prime;
- Copy of contract w/Prime where I signed an agreement giving
them permission to sue if we failed to perform;
- Letter from Bank;
- Plan for discharging debt, if creditors will agree
- Description of process for filing Chapter 11 if they do not
agree

Request that he notify my attorney ASAP as to his decision about continuing involvement.

Signature



The idea is basically a "shock and awe" barrage (appropriate, since he deployed for Iraqi Freedom as a volunteer/senior officer who chose to go back to help. Pre-falling-off-the-wagon-and-hooking-up-with-POSOW, used to be a good guy.)

What do you think?

- M

What do I think? "WH, Happy New Year to YOU. Welcome to 2009!!" :twobyfour:

tl

BB:

Thanks for coming by and giving input.

See the response I just posted.

Re: TX - yes, am in Clear Lake area. (Now you know the "gov't agency" I've been involved with for 20 years. ) However - residence is in MO, where I was living with him for past 3 years. So D is filed in MO. Equitable division state, with allowances for adultery, but not much. Filed a "no fault" divorce to try to get a negotiated settlment fast/less expensively, but was always willing to change it and go after him in court if I had to - and he knows that.

So, D attorney is in MO. Had to file there because MO allows one person to drive the whole divorce without permission from the other, and he was gonna file if I didn't...so couldn't move back to TX and establish residency long enough to file here. (Would have loved to. Texans DON'T take kindly to adultery!!)

MO attorney is a sharp guy. Impatient with me that I took so long to get tough; somewhat amused now and more than willing to go for the gusto.

Truth is, he's going to LOVE this turn of events.


Would like to meet Shiny after reading all of Charlotte's posts. Do you think he'd take a consult, even though I'm not seeking help from him as a divorce attorney? Might be good to get his perspective.

I think the best course is to get WH out of the company, which allows me to rebuild. If I file on him here, I'm still locked in lawsuits with him for years - plus it makes it harder for me to start over free and clear. However, if he refuses, I then completely agree that I should go after him here (TX) on business basis. Nothing to lose at that point. While the revenues for 09 were $1.3M, the total contract value (5 years) was $5.5M, with informal pledges from the Prime to try increase that - plus there were two 1 year options after.

All in all I'm probably looking at a loss of $10M in revenues - but right now can only "prove" $5.5M.

That's OK. He doesn't have even 1/10 of that available.


In case I haven't said it - I LOVE you guys!!!

Yep, BB is DEAD ON, miriam. He is the man you want in your corner--he is a fierce warrior for the wronged!! He knows ALL when it comes to family law and if he doesn't know something he makes it his business to find out! Please consider him if you are in the area. You will NEVER regret it!

I am so sorry you are in this situation. I get a headache just reading about it...I can only imagine how it must be on your end!

Charlotte

Charlotte/BB:

Charlotte - thanks. I'm so glad you've got Shiny - your descriptions have been inspiring - and hilarious.

BB - I'm going to spend the next few days putting together the business side of the J-DAM-equipped "bomb" package ( Joint Direct Attack Munition - it'll take a while to get letters from the bank, the Prime, etc, and for me to pull together copies of all the contracts, forms, etc.) - but once that's done I'd like to do a consult with Shiny. Maybe he can help my guy in MO.

You can email his contact info to me at:

emeldi_again@yahoo.com

It's a "nom de plume" hotmail address, so don't mind giving it out here. Let me know in the email if you want "real" contact info to send along to him as a heads up on the referral and I'll forward it to you.


Thanks,

- M

BB:

Still thinking about your comment re: breach of fiduciary duty. I'm going to back off on my statement that I won't pursue that unless he refuses to get out. I think I should talk to my guy in MO and then to Shiny and get smarter before decision. But in the meantime I'll still put the package together.

- M

Hey girl, you have mail!

Thanks!

My attorney checked in after I sent him strategy/letter - didn't need to, it's the 1st and there's nothing that can't wait until Monday - but still felt nice that he did it. We're going to try to tag up tomorrow - meanwhile I've got to start pulling alot of documentation together.

Thanks again BB, and to everyone who has been helping.

:happynewyear:

- M

Hi miriam,


Yes, he would. Whenever help is needed he will do whatever he can to help.



You're welcome! Me too! And, awwwwwww.....thank you! Yeah, I really need to get started on that novel!!

Charlotte

OK - so, I must say - I LOVE MY LAWYER.

Short version of events of today:

1) I scrubbed letter from me as CEO to WH as Board Member/shareholder. Although strictly speaking the letter is a broach of Plan B, by law I (me = Prez/CEO) have to write him of massive change in corporate finances. Gave him "just the facts" re: company meltdown due to no credit due to divorce and referred to Prez/CEO (myself) in the third person.

2) Talked to lawyer about strategy (Hmmmm...Dancin' Machine - I need help naming my guy. "Shiny" is already taken!)

3) He gets it, totally, and cuts to the heart of the matter. Tells me that >30 days after I filed, he (A) still hasn't gotten WH's financials - got a 2 sentence letter from WH's lawyer asking if I would consider settling "in one fell swoop". Tongue in cheek I suggested a one-word response letter - No.


This "one fell swoop" thing is what WH tried while we were still living together, and the absurd terms of his "swoop offer" (plus his hostile, contemptuous attitude) are what sent me to the lawyer in the first place!!

-- In other words (from WH's point of view)... "don't make me disclose, don't make me work, don't make me reveal stuff I don't want to reveal, don't make me struggle, don't make me play by the rules, let me destroy our marriage then demand a divorce THEN dictate how the divorce occurs, allow me to dodge any accountability for my behavior, let me continue to walk all over you, give me my free pass to throw you & marriage away to be with POSOW..." In other words, "ENABLE ME!!!"

I have another one word answer. Bullpuppies.

(4) Lawyer drafts two letters. Letter A says - (a) See Miriam's letter to WH (written from CEO to Board Member) - dissolution of marriage action resulted in no credit, resulted in cancellation of multi $M contract, now resulting in potential to be sued by Really Big Company and One Other Company for breach of contract; (b) BS's company's in complete financial meltdown and can't get out without really big loan for which WH will have to personally guarantee his share; (c) if WH doesn't want to guarantee his share of loan then he must give up all financial and marital interest in company [and here's how to do that] because BS can't get loan unless he either signs or gets out; (d) if he doesn't agree to sign loan or give up company by 1 week from today, A will refer matter to BS's corporate counsel who will file suit against him for "breach of fiduciary duty as Board Member."

:twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

Letter B says - (a) We got response from WH re: filing but no financials attached (b) checked w/court today and still no financials (c) WH MUST file financials by law and is already past deadline (d) if WH doesn't file financials by 1 week from today I (A) will file sanctions on his butt.

:twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour: :twobyfour:

Can you say - WAKE UP CALL!!!!

This is the FIRST time he's had to deal with the really hard realities of the mess he's made of his life and mine...and I am finally not the only one who will be struggling with enormous stress and financial loss due to his behavior.

THANK YOU to everyone who has helped...if you look back at my first post a couple of days ago and then now...I really really really appreciate the support!! I'll post as events occur (and when I really crash and need help) - and will go help some others, too!



Oh - and B/B and Charlotte - got Shiny's info, thanks B/B. Am going to wait to call until I see how WH responds. Won't call if he makes rational choice but will call if he doesn't. Thanks again.

- M

That is GREAT news. Wake-ups are always good for the WS.

Thanks, Believer.

I suppose I should _hope_ it's a wake up call. He may just see it as a declaration of war, or a revenge tactic, when it's not either. I won't deny that a part of me is glad in a slightly evil way that he is finally going to have to experience some of the consequences of the financial devastation I'm facing - but the reality here is that I'm doing what I have to do to save the company and my livelihood. My back is completely against the wall. I just want him out so I can try to save the company and not deal with him in the process - and there's no question of me buying him out (even if I was willing to) - the company's value at this second is quite literally less than zero.

The real shame is, it didn't have to be this way. Even with the adultery, the divorce, the trauma - if he had simply agreed to postpone divorce filing until after we had gotten credit - as I asked - then we wouldn't be in this position at all.

Come to think of it, there are probably dozens of decision points where a different decision from him (going to back to all the little decisions one makes while sliding into an affair) would have yielded a much better outcome.

So I guess this really is a case of "reaping what you sow".

Thanks again for your input and support. I'm pretty certain the rollercoaster ride d'jour isn't over yet...

- M

Hmmmmm...let me mull that one over for a while and get back to you on that...



WOO-HOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! ROCKIN'!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Cool! Yeah, I sent him an email about you. I don't know if he's read it yet, though. I haven't heard a peep so I'm guessing not yet. I know he's busier than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, though, since he actually had some much needed time off over the holidays!! Finally!! LOL!

Charlotte

Miriam,

I've been keeping up with your thread, but I haven't had anything to add (I don't know anything about all of this) so I haven't posted. HOWEVER, I had to once I saw your update. Congratulations!!!!

I hope that lights a fire under WH's [censored]!

Back in the pits.

Not because of anything WH has done or not done - not in the immediate sense. ALL of it is because of his A, in the non-immediate sense.

I talked with my SIL for 1 1/2 hours yesterday (she's great and his whole fam - SIL, BIL, MIL, FIL) have all been very supportive.) She's a business owner and has been following the saga closely. She read the letters from me and attorney and suggested pretty strongly that WH is going to be overwhelmed and very upset because he doesn't speak this language and won't understand. We parsed all the ins and outs for about 45 minutes but the question that got me really thinking about it was when she asked what the real goal was of my letter + attorney's letter. The real answer was to push him to make the best decision possible for everyone - him and me - to get out. She felt that an overwhelmed and very emotional WH is likely to be very unpredictable.

After talking with her I changed course and sat down and wrote him what amounted to a tutorial on the situation and on his choices. It was factual and civil - no "commentary". I urged him to get an independent, unbiased viewpoint on all of it so he didn't have to take it from me. Then I had my office administrator send it to him this morning.

Today I went into work and the bottom fell out.

The loan that I thought we could get in a last ditch effort to pull the company out of the fire? Turns out they changed their terms - pretty radically - for 2009. The rep I was talking to last week is "gone" (as in really gone) this week. The new terms were emailed to me late today.

There is NO way.

So, I emailed my attorney tonight and told him that his/my letter to WH is now OBE (overtaken by events) and that I was probably going to have to shut down the company. I've been crying since 4:45 (it's now 8:00) and cried all the way through the email. I then sent it to him, then forwarded it (along with the attachment detailing the new loan terms) to my office administrator and called her at home, asking her to forward the whole package to WH.

She did.

The email to attorney was pretty calm with the exception of one paragraph where I talked about losing everything I cared about, and losing my retirement, but that the real reason I had done all this didn't exist any more (the marriage) - and all of this was no reason to hold onto the company (out of some sentimental or fantasy motivation) when it was just going to go into more red ink. I went on to say that it was in everyone's best interest (mine and WH's along with vendors, etc.) to try to see if I can manage an orderly shut down (e.g, avoid bankruptcy and related costs).

About 1/2 hour ago I started second guessed myself on having forwarded all of it to my WH and started to beat myself up. I know when he gets to that part he'll roll his eyes. He'll figure I was guilting him. He'll see it as another indicator of my emotional instability. He'll use it to justify his decision to have an affair. He'll feel vindicated that he ditched me and got rid of the albatross around his neck that was this failing company. (Except of course, it was on the brink of wild success; torpedoed by the divorce.)

It is absolutely true that I should not have forwarded the emotional part...or even the whole email...and I hate it that he'll see how upset I am.

But then I started to think - you know what? It doesn't really matter anymore, dammit. (I know, this is NOT the MB way...) With the loss of the business, that is the last real link to WH and to our marriage. That's why I'm so upset - in addition to the 5 years of my life I put into the biz, it's the 9 years in the relationship, the almost 7 years of the marriage. I know that doesn't sound like much to folks who have been married for 20+ years, but this one was IT for me.

It's appropriate to grieve. It's appropriate to be in pain. And damn it, it's appropriate that he know it. I didn't wallow in it and I didn't rail at him as a cause or a reason - I just reiterated that the divorce was the reason the original credit app failed and now the whole mess has a life of its own. That was the only time the D was mentioned. There was no mention of overlaps or relationships between the business issues and terms of the D. Most of the email was just focused on what steps to take re: the business now that it is clearly out of control and beyond saving. My only mention of WH was just to say that there was no point in him continuing to beat his head against this either, so I was going to get notice to him that it was over.

And in the letter I sent him last night - the tutorial - I expressed awareness that all of this was a loss for him, too - that he had genuinely wanted this to succeed at one time. Believer had suggested that to me, way back...and when SIL suggested it independently, I went for it. Two lines. A simple reminder of shared experience. and it's the loss of all that shared experience that I'm grieving RIGHT NOW.

In my comment to WH at the top of the email that she forwarded tonight, I told him that any further contact about the business would come from one attorney or another and that he would be given time to respond...and if he had a time-critical business issue he could forward back to my OA and she'd get it to me and I'd take a look. I didn't promise to respond and in fact I would forward it to my attorney. I'm back to black. This hurts so much...I can't imagine trying to talk with him about it.

And I think I'm done. I think that's what all the tears are about. I think the end of the business is the end of the marriage all over again. The business was the "child" of the marriage - and the escape from the marriage - and the scapegoat for what was wrong in the marriage - and on and on. It's not just the five years, the money, the retirement...it's that there is really NOTHING left of the marriage. Just my love for him remains.

And me. I remain. I do know that I remain. And that's important.

Sorry for the rant. Too emotional; not even sure you'll be able to make sense of this.

Please, no 2X4's on the contact (all through intermediaries) with WH. I know. I get it.

I need a divorce.

Interesting to read that last bit. Haven't written that before. Don't remember having thought it before.

I probably do need a divorce.

I don't want one. But I probably do need one. Tearing down the old to start anew. When I implode, I implode in a big way. Everything comes down. I fail big. Always have. Not a creature of moderation. At all.

Without a divorce, I'm stuck. I can't move on. I can't figure out where I want to live, I can't look for a job without worrying about what effect it'll have on the divorce, I can't get away from all the toxicity.

Same with the business. I have to let go. I have to get out. I have to move on. It's all the same thing.

It's not just an affair. It's an affair started out of active, fallen off the wagon alcoholism. He's not just acting like an addict, he IS one. "Using" OW, like they all do. But he needs AA, too. It's the 2 years of watching him slide and feeling that terror from childhood brushing at the back of my brain. Walking on eggshells, distancing myself, occasionally strong enough to demand that he seek treatment but never strong enough to really GO if he didn't. So he went instead. Right to OW - another great enabler - a "I'm so defenseless and emotionally abused by my emotionally abusive, neglectful husband and you give me things I've never had before", not-even-original, oldest-trick-in-the-book dry drunk herownself!

OF COURSE!

I've got to get the gunk off me.

I'll stay dark now. There's no reason to come out. There's no more business issues to discuss, no complexities to parse. It's all over but the final terms. Attorneys can handle that. I don't need to. And just 3 days of writing letters and tutorials to him - with no response to deal with! - was enough to rip me up again.

I'm not saying this is right. But I think maybe I haven't wanted to admit that I can't really do recovery without a D.

Then again, maybe I'll feel different once I quit bawling....

thanks for reading all these rants and I'm gonna shaddup now.

Mirium,

We know how you feel because we are all either there now or have been there at some point. There is nothing like an A to completely wipe you out financially. I'm facing the same thing. My business has gone down hill, and mainly it's because of my lack of attention to it due to all of the emotional stress. Two years ago I thought that we were set for retirement, but today bankruptcy doesn't look too far off. Thousands have been lost due to having to sell our house in a down market, moving expenses, using savings to live off of, attorney fees, and debts accumulated by WH to impress OP. It truly is tragic.

You will go through an emotional roller coaster like you could never have imagined. You will be up and down on a daily basis for a long time. For me it was a year or more. Then the ups and downs were farther betweeen, but were more intense. That is where I am now. When I'm up, I'm really up. During those times I hate WH, would like to tell him a thing or two. But then suddenly the down comes. And boy, is it a downer. Without warning too. Whew, you really have to watch out for those days. I'm looking at 1 1/2 years in Plan B, but I'm finding that the downs don't last too long anymore. I'm not trying to scare you, just give you an idea of what to expect. Others can chime in, but from what I have seen, it's a pretty typical ride.

The one thing I can warn you about is not to expect your WH to "get it." In other words, he will probably take everything that you say and turn it around somehow to be your fault. He will fault himself for nothing, so don't expect anything other than venom. He will see none of this as his fault. Now I could be wrong and he could suddenly wake up, but don't expect it.

I say to just let your atty handle this. It will protect you from any further contact with him. Right now you are too hurt to risk it. Don't keep breaking your Plan B. I did that, and it became totally ineffective on WH. In the end, he Plan B'd me better than I Plan B'd him. Plan B is for you though, which is something that I didn't totally understand in the beginning. I do now.



Just keep posting during the rough times and we will support you.
Remember, things happen for a reason and we don't always see it at the time.

Hi miriam,

I've been reading your rants. I don't know what to say except:

Here's a hug!!!: ((((((((((miriam))))))))))

Your mind is racing at a million miles-an-hour and your fingers are starting to feel the burn by trying to keep up!!



Charlotte

We were cross posting.

One more thing. Don't push the D unless you are absolutely sure you are done. You know the stats - most A's die within 2 years. Dr. Harley recommends 2 years in Plan B. Personally, I wasn't willing to wait 2 years in Plan B, but some are. I was willing to give it only one. The point is that you should not make a decision like this when you are emotionally drained. Give yourself a time limit, but take some time to think about this and get yourself to a more emotionally stable place before you nail the coffin shut.

I agree, Charlotte! Miriam, I just read your last post and I don't know if I'd call it a rant, but I could feel your pain and sadness in every line.

There will be better days, but you will be better off to feel this pain for what it is and to share it here.



BF439

Yep. And you'll be blamed for (among many other things): 9/11, WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War, the Crimean War, Jonestown, Waco, the stock market crash in 1929, Global Warming, the sinking of the Titanic, the melting ice caps, etc. etc. ad nauseum!!

Everything...(and I do mean EVERYTHING!!)...is your fault. Gee, BS's sure have a lot of power, don't they? To cause all of these disasters?

Charlotte

To all:

thank you.

I really appreciate you telling me what I need to hear


I did feel relief tonight when I emailed WH and told him that attorneys would take it from here on the business shut down.
That was me vanishing back into the dark. Part of why I'm so upset is that I came out. He has not responded at all - can't blame him for my upset - that's what I meant when I was trying to say that I knew I was doing this to myself.

I just got off the phone with my BFF who is also gently challenging me - even on the assumption that I have to shut down the company. She says I haven't tried everything yet because I'm in so much pain that I just want everything to be done - the marriage, the business, everything. She doesn't know what else I have to yet to try - but she thinks I'm moving too quickly toward quitting. (She's been my BF for 35 years - anyone who can hang in there that long bears listening to.) Her counsel was just like yours about the marriage - wait until you are in a more stable place.

I know this is good advice and I know it comes from a good place, both from you and from her.

I'm going to go have my second glass of wine, watch some more of "Star Trek: Nemesis" (a movie I'm not fond of but a "franchise" that has been a friend since 1967) - and then draw a really hot bath, complete with bath salts. Part of my problem is that I'm not sleeping but 4, maybe 5 hours a night - for about 2 months. Hopefully the wine, my Starfleet friends, and the bath salts will help. I would love to get at least 6 hours.

I hope the next time I "show my face" here I'm at a better place on the rollercoaster.

Thanks again.

- Miriam

My WH left a voicemail at my office last night. He sounded upset; voice was tense like he was "overcontrolling" it. He said he had read everything.

Then he dropped a bombshell. He offered to sign over all equity in the house if it would help get a loan to save the company.

He called again this morning at 7:15 am on my cell phone. I didn't pick up and just got the message a few minutes ago.

WTF????? I mean -- W T F ????????!!!!!!

A couple of items worth noting - 3/4 of the house equity was put there by me when we bought it, out of holdings that were mine. So basically he's offering to sign over his 1/4.

However, he was previously demanding that his investment in the company be returned to him upon divorce and had suggested that that amount be subtracted from the equity I was owed - which would have left me with about 1/3 of the equity in the house as my "D settlement".

It's been made crystal clear in all of the documents he's seen over the past 48 hours that there is no money left in the company and we'd both lose our investments.

So it sounds as though he's basically acknowledging that and freeing up the house equity - offering to take it out of the divorce negotiations - since otherwise it's going to go to me in the divorce settlement anyway, but too late to do any good at that point. And he is pledging his remaining share.

Is this because he now understands that his insistence on filing the divorce is what caused the meltdown? Is this guilt? that's hard to believe - is he trying to buy his way out of guilt? That's easier to believe...

The only thing he can possibly hope to get out of this is maybe an agreement from me not to force him to file his financials - which my attorney will never agree to, and neither would I - beause he's afraid the adultery will come out in black and white. But, in MO, that would only result in a 60-40 split instead of a 50-50 split - and if the house is out of the settlement, the 60/40 is going to be equal to 50/50, for all intents and purposes.


I need help, MBers. I'm way too close and way to emotional to have a clue how to interpret this.

What does this mean for the marriage? Anything? What does it mean for the effectiveness of Plan B? Anything?

I realize I have to sort out the financials and you can't help me do that - but just from the MB point of view, what could this mean? What's my strategy here?

HELP, PLEASE. I'm so floored by everything over the past couple of weeks I know I cannot see the forest for the trees at this point.

At least I'm coming here BEFORE I act, this time!!!

- M

HELP, PLEASE!!!

I'd say too little too late. It's probably dawning on him how much MORE he stands to lose. Sorry, I wouldn't settle for just the equity. I believe you'd have good grounds on the suit for breach of fiduciary duty. But I'm not an attorney, I've only worked for them for 20 years, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Mirium,

I agree with PM. At least I wouldn't take it to give up something else. If you can take it with no strings attached, take it and run.

I wouldn't read anything into this regarding the M. If he is doing this, he is doing it with selfish motives. Trying to protect his posterior in some way.

Let your atty handle everything!!!! Until he complies with the terms of your PBL, he is a WAYWARD. Do not negotiate with him until....

I emailed to let him know I received the message but was not willing to talk. I then talked about exploring the financial implications with creditors, including looking at solutions I'd previously ruled out. I then referred him back to his attorney.

He responded by using my intermediary - where he promptly overplayed his hand. He told the IM it was now "time to talk directly" because he had "a solution for everyone"...he would sign over equity in the house (2/3 of which is mine; gonna give me back my own money, plus a little of his) - plus he said "there had been mention that the divorce was causing the problem with credit" (like he just forgot I had told him of this back in the fall) - so he had seen his attorney and knew we could settle the divorce by Friday, if we would just sit down and talk through it, and that would solve my problems and meet my deadline for the SBA program.

He has not yet responded to the divorce complaint - which is required within 30 days - we're at 40. My attny sent him a letter Friday advising him to file a response by this Fri or face sanctions. And prior to yesterday, when I found out about the new terms and gave up on this particular SBA program, we were also driving toward a Friday deadline for the SBA loan.

So, suddenly he wants to settle by Friday, ostensibly to make it possible for me to pursue the SBA program - which, if I can get the equity out of the house, I don't want to pursue because there are other options!!

It's clear he's angling for his "one fell swoop" divorce - this is now the 3rd time he's tried.

How generous of him.

I promptly called my attorney - we're tagging up tomorrow.

I sent a one word follow up to my previous email - "disregard". I then instructed my IM to send him back a message that said she had gotten his message and had "transmitted to Miriam - who acknowledged reception and said she'd follow up with her attorney and financial advisors tomorrow."

And that's IT. No more contact. I plan to tag with my attorney tomorrow (don't really need the financial advisor), have my IM stand by, and then sit back and wait to see if he files by Friday.

So, here's what I think:

1) He wants his 'get out of jail almost-free card' ASAP and sees an opportunity here to pull it off, by capitalizing on my no-holds-barred attempt to save the big contract and the company. Mind you, he caused the problem in the first place.

2) He is HIDING SOMETHING - why else the resistance to filing financials, the full-court-press to settle the divorce by Friday - just incidentally, the day he has been told he has to file a response by - hmmmmm? He's claiming it is to save my SBA loan by coming up with the required amount of money and by fixing the divorce uncertainty in the credit applications.....right....

The problem here is that he _will_ end up as a principal of my company because of the divorce laws in this stupid state, unless I change my filing to adultery and go to court - which will cost me lots and lots of dollars and a couple of years. And in the meantime I have to deal with him in the company.

What this basically boils down to is whether I'm willing to "trade" getting my company free and clear in a divorce settlement - for him being able to keep his secret, whatever it is. He's going to lengths to avoid disclosing it. And it HAS to be financial - because that's what the filings are all about. I figure it's either information that will implicate him further re: marital misconduct, OR it is something I didn't know about that would impact the division of property.

Not sure I'm going to _have_ a company at the end of this. But, I sort of "crossed the Rubicon" last night when I melted down and came to terms with that, somewhat. And then today, I got agreements from everyone not to sue us (he doesn't know that and doesn't need to.) With that, I might not even end up in bankruptcy if I can hang on for another month. If he wants to claim the company in the divorce I'm going to make him pay for half the cost of a forensic accountant to value it. Meanwhile, PrincessMeggy thinks I could have a case against him in Texas for breach of fiduciary responsibility by insisting on filing a divorce in the fall, despite having been told by me that it could endanger our ability to get the contract. I figure he also wants to get out because he doesn't want to get stuck with bankruptcy costs.

So, I'm back to "one day at a time". And Plan B. Y'all were right. Right now my plan is to talk to my attorney and tell him what I learned from my IM tonight, compare notes, plan strategy...which for me at this point is to wait on WH to either file a response or fail to respond, at which point we'll start the ball rolling on sanctions. Re; the company - I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing but I'm not going to rush to try to get back on the contract. The shakier it looks, the better - the less likely he is to fight for it (I think) - or the easier for me to shut down. If I've lost the contract, I've lost it.

It's interesting, considering how upset I was last night - I'm calmer tonight - almost calm, in fact. I'm sad, but centered.

Thanks again for all of your help. The saga continues...but my own goal now is to focus on my life in the here-and-now and just let the rest of the legal garbage play out.

- M

Just a quick update -

Friday came and went. I'll find out in the next couple of days if WH filed his response to my divorce filing (aka, disclosed his finances.) If so, then I guess we start looking at the whole picture. I'm in no hurry. If not, then my attorney will file for sanctions.

After my last posts there was additional communication to intermediary from WH. She decided not to pass it along except to say that she thinks he is genuinely upset about the trouble the business is in. She believes he had rationalized his affair and divorce by telling himself that it was for the better for both of us; that I would move away and have my friends and my business. Now it ain't necessarily so. He was really upset that I hadn't contacted him before re: the business; that he had invested in it in many ways (true) and he felt he deserved to know what was happening.

I've been dark since then. Pitch black.

On a topic that is probably related, because of the timing...per an earlier discussion with folks here about my internet presence - I decided not to drop off Facebook, Twitter, etc., but to (a) block anyone with his emails, (b) set up both sites up so that anyone wanting to "follow" me has to ask my permission, and (c) set up a reciprocal service that follows anyone who follows me (another attempt to avoid spoofing.) Previous to the contact about the business, there had been no attempt to follow me on any of these sites. Last Tuesday, however, he tried to follow me on Twitter by changing his 'handle'. Took me a couple of days to find it (during which he followed me) but then booted him off.

Funny - didn't bother me at all to find him there (but I don't want him to continue.) Obviously, he wasn't out to provoke me or harass me because he was doing this in "stealth" mode. Does anyone have experience with this - are WS's looking for data to use in divorce, for example? I know no one can tell me what he was doing - just curious about other cases.

Hope everyone is well.

- M

Hi Miriam,

I just stopped by your post and am so thankful that you found the time and the inclination to help me!

I am left touched and inspired by your strength and your humour in such a bleak situation. You have been a pillar of strength and whatever happens, you will be the one to come out on top!

I can't offer any advice (I'm in such a mess myself) other than pass this on:-

It is wise to keep in mind that neither success nor failure is ever final. (R Babson)

Thank you, 2M2L.

Stay the course. Get free of toxicity in the form of WH's.


Sounds good, huh.

I have a situation coming up and am looking for advice.

Our divorce "case conference" is on Feb. 2. I'm flying into town and spending two nights in a hotel. (First, it galls me that I'm paying for a hotel while OW is sleeping in my house with my WH. I've had intense fantasies of walking into the house unannounced and ordering her out, and calling the cops if she doesn't comply. But the truth is, as much as I REALLY LIKE the fantasy, it's a fantasy - wouldn't go that way, probably, and I don't need the damn drama.)

I'm going in a day early so I can spend time with my stepson and see my dogs (he'll bring them to me.) That's all OK; I'm looking forward to spending time with him - and them.

It's the case conference I'm thinking about.

How do I interact with WH? Totally ignore him? I'm in Plan B (except for when I broke it over business issues; not a peep from me since). He may ask about the business - he has a right to do so, and it's incumbent upon me to answer. Right now I'm thinking I will just say (in a civil, pleasant tone) that we should discuss that "at the table", so to speak, and then let my lawyer lead. That's why I'm paying him.

I guess with regard to other interaction around the meeting - I don't plan to approach him first and he will probably ignore me. I expect to be cold shouldered and treated rudely - which would make reciprocating easy - but I don't know that I want to be that way. I want to be civil and dignified. I want to be relaxed and confident and laid back. I don't want to be drawn into any discussions with him. I'm there to "do business" and get out.

He's in a romantic affair, so I'm pretty sure he's not ever going to look back (based on his history). Still, I want to balance between holding firm, maintaining my boundaries, and not LBing in any way. The best possible outcome for me would be for me to think that I looked attractive and behaved in a self-confident and appealing way but gave absolutely NO sign of weakness (especially since the last interaction with me, albeit in print, was when I was freaked out about the business. No more freaking out.)

Advice? For those of you who have been through this sort of thing - suggestions?

Thanks,

- M

I had the same questions. In the end, I looked my Goddess best and let the atty's do the talking. I didn't even look WH's way. Your atty should speak for you whenever possible.

The OW living in YOUR house even before you are D'd? What does that say about her?

Have you watched The Jane Austen Book Club?

Fabulous movie about his affair, separation, new lives...

Then he begs her to let him come home.

Beautifully written. You will laugh and cry and regardless of what happens at your meeting, you will be fabulous and divine and looking amazing. Nothing confuses the WH's more than seeing you glowing without them and without needing them.

Chai -

Thanks. I like your "Goddess best" reference.

Re: OW - should have been clearer. She's spending the weekends there and sometimes the weeknights. She's not living there because my WH thinks that's unwise until the divorce is settled. (Her ExH got in touch with me this week and dropped that little tidbit.) The two of _them_ (OW and OWxH) are living in their house. He wants out but can't afford it, the house went to the two of them in the D, and with the housing market the way it is....

When he gets mad at her (daily) he yells at her to go move in with my WH - and she says that's not possible now, because of pending D, etc. From other things she's said, it's clear that the two of them (WH and OW) have extensive plots and plans to get me out of their lives as soon as possible with as little muss and fuss as possible.

As for what all this says about her - pretty obvious, isn't it? She was meeting with him for dinner in front of his two youngest kids in my house all summer. She was schtupping him in my house. Etc.

(I woke up this morning in a total rage. I'm homeless except for a friend putting a roof over my head, my company's on the rocks, all because of my WH and his whore.)

Back to the conference. You didn't even look at him? What else? What type of attitude/demeanor did you adopt? - just looking for options to think about. Thanks!

- M

2M2L -

Thanks! I'll check it out!

- M

Quick update - will post to Dancin' Machine's thread, also -

I woke up both yesterday and today just full of rage. I mean FULL OF RAGE. At his maliciousness, thoughtlessness, selfishiness, stupidity, negligence...

You want out the marriage? Then ask for a divorce in a healthy way. DON'T destroy the marriage, the spouse, the kids - and the spouse's income, the family business...etc etc etc.

So - Charlotte - and Brit's Brat - I fired off an email to Shiny this afternoon. Gave him a rundown on the case and asked him to respond with a "yes, I'll do a consult" or "no, but here's someone else you should talk to." If he doesn't by Monday, I'll call. I don't know if he reads emails in a timely way (some folks don't). I told him I had no objection to pursuing a divorce in the state where I'm resident AND pursuing another lawsuit (re: Princess Meggy's suggestion about breach of fiduciary responsibility to the corporation) in another.

Don't know for sure that I want to do that yet. But I have no objection, either. And I certainly DO want to hear what the options are. PrincessMeggy has pushed me on this - I went and read the state laws - and it looks to my uneducated eye that there is a possibility she's right (and her eye is MUCH more educated than mine is in this regard.)

My state-of-residence is pretty much an "equitable division" state - even in the case of adultery it MIGHT go from 50-50 to 60-40 - and WH lost me $5.5M contract and has driven the company to the brink of bankruptcy, and me along with it. Somehow, 60-40 of the home, belongings, etc., just doesn't seem like its gonna get it.

But then again, I'm FULL OF RAGE. I'll probably wait until the case conference in two weeks to see how that goes before pursuing other options, if any. And I would have to get the two attorneys to coordinate.

Still....

- M

Hey Miriam, you sound good. Very good and very capable.

Wanna send some of that hard earned, healthy, taking care of yourself, anger my way. Just kidding.

You are in my thoughts and its an honor to know you and watch you blossom into a strong vibrant, go getting GODDESS.....

Good for you M! One of the things we stress around here is to protect yourself financially because waywards do stupid things... they don't care about finances, normal day-to-day concerns, etc... all focus is on "me me me me me".

As for your "home", I'd be pitching a hissy if I knew OW was stepping foot in my castle. I'd definitely have it fumigated if you ever move back in. If it was me, I'd put it up for sale (to heck with the current state of the market) cause I'd never want to live there again knowing such evil walked the halls. Your H would probably feel the same way if he ever escapes WH.

I'm rooting for you!

Queenie & PrincessMeggy:

Q - right now I've got so much anger that I'm sure I can get some up to you in that part of the country. I busted my backside for 5 years to build that company into something for our retirement and the s.o.b. destroyed it because of "me, "me, "me". That's so irresponsible that I'd be advising a stranger to take him apart, but to do it to a spouse???? To himself??? To his kids???

Thanks for the support. I need it, because the title of this thread is right on. I go this way for a while then take 2 steps back. "Wavering" is perfect. But today - not so much!!

PrincessMeggy - thanks for your support and thanks for pushing me on this point. I'm very interested to see what happens - if not via Dancin' Machine's "Shiny", then from someone else I hope he can refer me to. I fired off an email to my D attorney and told him I was seeking counsel here (in the state where the business is, where I'm hanging out) and am expecting the utmost coordination between the two attorneys in the two states to position me in such a way to maximize my options WRT D (in MO, where house is) and potential lawsuit in TX (where biz is).

I love the idea of two suits, one right after the other, or both intertwined - whatever the legal eagles think is best. :twobyfour:


To everyone - I just talked to my stepson there who said that his dad is "all upset" because I didn't respond to his latest attempt to get his "get out of jail free" card - which he made by offering to sign over the house equity (3/4 of which is MY MONEY) to support a loan app for the company. (Nice of him to "offer" to make my own money available to me.)

According to SS2 (Stepson2 ; I have 2 Stepsons and 2 Stepdaughers and they're all at least 20 years of age and disgusted with Dad), WH was complaining that I wasn't responding to his attempts to settle the D quickly - that "the best thing for everyone" is just to work this out and get it over with quickly. WH was whining that I wouldn't speak with him and then had withdrawn again into NC after the exchange of emails and letters on the topic of the SBA loan. (THANKS - EVERYONE - for putting my Plan B "break" into my face and ordering me to go back to Plan B. It obviously worked - not just for me but in terms of impact on WH.)

Apparently SS2 responded by telling WH that all of this is his own fault, first by having the A and then by refusing to talk with me when I wanted to talk about the D and the impact to the business. SS2 reminded WH that I had been very explicit about the effect that filing D could have on funding the big contract and that WH had ignored me and threatened to file if I didn't. SS2 went on to tell WH that he (WH) is very immature.

I'm really proud of SS2. But then again, this is the second time his Dad has pulled this routine - he ended his first marriage (to SS2's mother) the same way. SS2 is really angry because he moved into our house last Jan specifically to get to know his Dad - who he's never lived with - right when WH/OW started going at it hot and heavy. Still - this kid has always longed to be closer to his Dad and this has to be hurting him. I told him he was pretty wise for a 20-year old.

SS2 then filled me in on the fact that the ho' is at the house 5 nights out of 7 - and that SS2 came home early from work last Sat to find them making out in the living room. He left. Dad (WH) apologized to him later and SS2 simply said "I didn't appreciate it" and walked out of the room. I started making gurgling noises - at which point SS2 remembered he's not supposed to tell me things like this and started apologizing profusely.

Interestingly - maybe because I'm pissed off and feeling empowered today? - while it made me more pissed off, it didn't hurt, and the kid and I actually laughed over his (SS2) faux pas - then he said he'd try to watch it and I agreed.


But- Princess Meggy - my RAGE of the past couple of days is definitely being fueled by the input from OWxH and now from SS2 about all the sleep overs. No, I will never set foot in that house again. As to whether to sell it - we'll see how all the financial stuff turns out. Selling a big house on an acre right now is damn near impossible; if I force a sale I could wait for years to see the money out of it (indeed, that is the situation that OW and OWxH are now in). Might be a better strategy just to pull as much equity out as can be managed in a re-fi and then go after all the rest of his assets through the suit in TX, assuming I am able to file one here.

I still have stuff in that house that I want out of it, though, and I think I probably will have to get it all fumigated.

Thanks for listening to this rant - and thanks for all the support and the "noodging".

for all of you!!!

- M

Miriam, I got nothing.
Just wanted to say I've been following your thread and you are one amazing woman.

Well, gee, Turtlehead - don't know what to say - except thanks!! You gave me a lift.

- M

You are doing good Mirium. BS's need to get good and angry once in a while. We need to stand up for ourselves and not let the wayward get away with everything.

Keep up the good work...

Thank you, Chai.

I don't know what opened the flood gates but I'm definitely "emoting" - dreamed about him/this mess and woke up at 5:30 am in tears...eventually just got up. Had another yelling match with the WH-in-my-head around 10:00 am this morning (I actually yelled; the house is empty this morning so I vented.)

I was so depressed (complete with suicidal ideation/impulses) the last week of Dec. and the first two weeks of Jan - this is definitely an improvement - I guess - I'm just holding on for the ride. Maybe it's just more of the rollercoaster.

At least I'm mad at the person I should be mad at rather than taking it out on me.

- M

That's a step in the right direction. This isn't about you. None of it is. What your WH has done is ALL ON HIM. Got it?

You deserve some TLC from YOU.

Are you seeing an IC?

No. Not yet. Will if I need to. Brief background -

Been there/done that at 4 different points in my life - 7 years from ages 23-30; again during first marriage 2 years, then again after loss of baby for 3 years (from 42 to 45).

Then there's the 4 years of therapy while I learned to be and then was a therapist - which I was for 11 years.

Finally, after 20 years of hypomanic episodes punctuated with the occasional Major Depression (about once a decade), I was diagnosed as Bipolar II when 44 (7 years ago) and on meds since. MUCH better.

I am doing a 12 step group 3X/week, plus talking to friends regularly. When the depressed stuff got really bad I upped that to 5X/week for the 12 step group and 6 days in a row on the phone to my best friend. It simmered down and went away completely when I got pissed off (which is what needed to happen.) For me, the red flags requiring me to seek clinical help are:

1) suicidal ideology lasting more than 3 consecutive days, or
2) suicidal thoughts coupled with planning - at any time, doesn't have to last any more than 10-15 minutes - and I'm on the phone to a shrink. That hasn't happened yet.
3) Social withdrawal. When I stop talking to anyone for more than a few days, it's a really bad sign.

The real "key" to me, mood-wise, is sleep. It's the first thing to go and the longer it is disrupted, the worse I get. The key to managing that is exercise, and I started back to the gym as well about two weeks ago. Hit it hard yesterday and last night I slept 7 1/2 hours - the longest since D-day back in July. Took the day off today to clean house and am hitting the gym again this afternoon.

My best friend has known me for 35 years and is also a good "check" for me. I've definitely had days where I've thought about it. I kept thinking I was going to have to hit a really low point sooner or later, and I think the first two weeks of January were it. Business collapsed, I broke plan B to get WH (and business partner, unfortunately) involved in trying to save it (that was dumb - and it stirred me up) - post-holidays, you name it - it was all there.

Thanks for the "ping" on it, though...never hurts to revisit and check on whether it's time or not.

- M

Just a quick update - with Dancin' Machine's/Brits Brat referral, finally spoke with "Shiny" - he can't really take the case (as I suspected) because I filed D in another state - but does think I have a civil case against WS for "breach of fiduciary duty" re: the company. Thinks jurisdiction in TX should be no problem because company is here (and now I am, too). Finally, referred me to a civil litigator - I have a call into him.

Here's the thing I'm trying to balance. Right now I'm thinking that I can get WH out of my business - lock, stock, barrel - not worry about him any more, including telling him where to stick his investment money that he wants back (less than a third of what I invested, and neither of us getting anything back for a long, long while, if ever, because of the state the company's in since he tanked it.) The way to do that is simply to threaten to file the civil suit in TX and use that as a BIG 2 X 4 to get him to back down in MO, give me what I want and go away.

And I can't tell you how MUCH I want him out of my business.

But. Big But. If I use this leverage I may well really really end the M. The D was filed for "legal mechanics" reasons and I have been clear every step of the way that that's all it is, I don't want it and in fact want to work on the M. However, once I threaten a second filing - this time a civil suit looking for damages - he'll really view it as piling on.

Trying to decide what I need to do, here. If I threaten to file here I may lose any hope of recovery of M. If I don't I'm stuck with him in some shape or form in the business. Someone who's judgment I absolutely DO NOT TRUST who will have veto power for things like loans, etc.

I guess I'm leaning toward getting him out of my business (and finances and livelihood) and hoping that if he really ever wanted to come back, he'd find a way to get past all that. Which I don't think he will, anyway.

Thoughts?

- M

You have up to two years to file your civil suit (from the date he first caused/or you became aware of damages).

How will you get him out of your business? Through the divorce or the civil suit? Or is there a board where he can be voted out? Does he hold an office? Is he an owner? Lots of legal stuff to clear up to get this done.

If you want the divorce, I vote for doing the divorce and the civil suit at the same time... piling it on as you say, but that's just me.

If you want a shot at recovery, then you might want to wait on the civil suit... or not file it at all... but... are you prepared to go on with him in the buisness if you guys DO recover? Could he handle being OUT of the business if you did recover?

I guess you need to decide FOR SURE what you want before you start the legal manuevers.

Hi, PM:

Turns out I've got 4 years from when he caused the damages, so there's time.

In brief, I want him out of the company whether or not we recover.

Re: strategy - my thought had been to go through with the divorce and use the threat of the civil suit to get him to let go of the company. Under MO law, he's entitled to half because it was started during the marriage. However, his p.o.v. is that he's willing to get out entirely if I will "refund" him the 30K (I say 24K) he invested in the company.

Quibbling over amounts aside, the issue here for me is that his investment was in return for me picking up costs for his children. So, over the past five years (since his investment) I've picked up tuition, paid childrens' allowance while at college, picked up car registration and insurance, paid for
#1 daughter's trip to Italy, etc. etc. While it would take some backtracking to figure out actual $$ to determine if he's really "gotten back" the entire amount of the investment, the issue now is that he's decided to "forget" he ever said that and demand the entire amount be refunded to him as part of the divorce settlement. I have several issues with this:

1) It's completely dishonest and amounts to rewriting history (again).
2) Were I to forget about #1 - he tanked the company by insisting on filing divorce. I invested over 100K in the company - including all my retirement savings. At present, the company is worth < 0, is in the red because of his actions. I'm not going to get anything back unless things change. Why should he?

He's on the board. It is a close hold C Corp so there were only two board members (he and I). The plan was to ramp up the board once we had the contract in hand and there were real assets to start thinking about long-term. I can vote him off since I hold 80% of the shares, but that opens ME up to a civil suit in TX.

I'm going to break this into two posts because there's JUST been another development.

- M

PM: (Part 2)

The lawyer in TX who would file the civil suit thinks I should change the filing in MO to adultery and throw the book at WH, then file the civil suit after all is said and done. He thinks its better to keep them separate. My attorney in MO (divorce guy) wanted me to throw the adultery book at him from Day 1, but I didn't. I wanted to try for a settlement on a no-fault basis, in part because I felt that was more advantageous for trying for recovery later - and also because its less expensive all-around.

An important piece of this is that WH says I put in 50K to the house (it was 56K, + there's been appreciation) and he put in 30K to the business. His "offer" to get out of my life and my business is for me to "pay him back" the 30K by taking it from the 50K, leaving me with 20K as a my settlement - and all ties are severed.

HOWEVER. I received WH's finances this morning and there's a loan there for around 35K that I have no knowledge of. (He refused to submit his finances until threatened with a court order and the paper he finally submitted has no detail - no account numbers, no bank addresses/phone numbers, no information other than the mortgage info, which I knew about, and a new car loan for #2 daughter, which I have questions about but is basically understandable - but still no detail, even on those.) The 35K loan, howver, has ABSOLUTELY no documentation and is suspiciously close to the amount he wanted me to sign for before I left the house - he was trying to get me to agree to open up an equity line of credit (right, like I'm going to give him access to the equity in the middle of this mess.)

He's tried 3 times now to get me to accept the 20K settlement and end the divorce proceedings "in one fell swoop". Last week he expressed to son #2 his complete bewilderment and upset as to why I didn't just "settle" (I believe that, as part of his "entitlement psyche", he really thought I'd just take his "deal" and let go.)

That belief of his is a key component of everything that follows next.

About a month ago I became suspicious that he might have ignored the law and gotten some unsuspecting bank to open up an equity line of credit on the house without me (it requires my co-signature.) He and OW have been shopping for wood floors for our house and talking about all other kinds of improvements. I have no clue where that money would come from (she hasn't got it) other than from a line of credit. I raised the flag about my suspicions to my attorney at that time.

As of reviewing what he did submit today, I think that's exactly what he did. Here's the math:

74K equity in the house
201K mortgage payments remaining
House worth about 275K

35K "unknown loan" - if equity - leaves about 39K equity still in.

20K "settlement for stupid BS" (had I taken it, as he clearly expected me to) leaves about 20K equity still in.

That's 10% of the remaining mortgage payoff - the bare minimum he'd have to keep in the house to be able to keep it and have the line of credit without refinancing again to buy me out.

If I apply typical alcoholic/WS "logic", I think he figured that taking out an equity line of credit would be just fine (if we ignore the little matter of the law) because I was SURELY going to accept his offer of 20K to get out of the marriage and get him out of the business. That way he could get the line going to make all the improvements on the house that he and OW have been talking about (plus make it harder for me to force him out.) It's ALL ABOUT his happiness, after all!

It never really occurred to him that I would say no. Which means he thought he could snow the bank and get away with all this, free and clear. He expected me to settle so he wouldn't ever have to disclose his finances (that's what his OW did; she settled and didn't disclose. Gosh, wonder where he got that idea?) He thought if he could just get me to go for it the issue would never come up; that's why he stalled on the submittal while he tried.

3 times.

He really thinks he's entitled to everything in the entire marriage except for 20K and a business HE KNOWS is on the verge of bankruptcy.

I put 56K down on the house, plus it's appreciated 10K - so I'm looking for 61K on the house alone from one source or another.

From MY point of view, if he's done this (and the math works perfectly) it means he's stolen access to my money, because I'm NOT going to "refund" his 24K or 30K or whatever he thinks it is as part of a divorce settlement after he tanked the company - AND I want him to pay for my move back to TX - AND I want other settlement stuff, like some of his damn retirement - AND I want my 61K from the house.

All of this is revolving solely around the house in his thinking because he's refused to put his other assets out there. It looks as though he thinks he can snow me there, too. For example - the only retirement he listed actually has loans against it (which he didn't disclose, so it looks on paper like that retirement is accessible, which it isn't) and as for his Navy retirement, which is the big enchilada - well, there he wrote "unknown" for the amount available.

More dodging. There are additional examples in the papers I'm holding in my hand.

I know this is long. I congratulate anyone who's stuck with it; I'm hoping it has some value as a sort of a primer on divorce strategy 101.

Here's the bottom line for me. The title of this thread, "Wavering", has always been apt, and never moreso than today. If what I suspect is true, then he's continuing to lie - lied to the bank, lying to me, lying to my attorney, lying to the court, probably lying to his attorney (or at least, leaving things out.)

I can't negotiate under a "no-fault" approach, under these circumstances. No one could - or should. Nor do I want him in my company for another second - he's already demonstrated he's dangerous to it and to me.

Finally, he's an ALCOHOLIC who is off the wagon, in addition to being a wayward. I do love him - the "him" that is sober and non-wayward. But at this point I don't believe there's any hope for recovery of the marriage. MB doesn't work with addicts. And I believe that the best I can do for him - REALLY, the VERY BEST THING I can do for him - is to hold him completely accountable for all of his actions. Without malice. While protecting myself.

The sooner he hits bottom (if he does), the more likely that some day, he will recover - whether we do, or not.

So. Here's what I'm thinking:

1) Monday I instruct my attorney to file sanctions against him in court for failure to respond. His response lacks all meaninful detail, making it impossible to verify - and it is misleading - therefore, it is non-compliant.
2) I instruct my attorney to file subpeonas for all his financial records. (No more waiting). I want everything ASAP.
3) I instruct my attorney to get ready to change our filing from "no-fault" to adultery.
4) Monday next we have our first case conference. I'm going. I won't look at him. I won't talk with him. Attorney does it all. If he continues on this track, we disengage and leave - then change the filing.
5) I hold off on the civil suit and wait to see how the divorce plays out. If I can get him the hell out of the company in the divorce, then I probably won't file. But I'll leave the option open.
6) I surrender it all to G-d and let go of my marriage.


Here's my one remaining question. I DO want my husband to recover - in all ways. I'm going to MO a couple of days early to see stepson #2. I'm seriously considering sending WH an email on Friday evening to ask him if he wants to meet on Sunday for 1/2 hour (the case conference is on Monday.) I'll tell him in the email that I don't really have anything to talk about - just want to give him the opportunity to talk with me, prior to the conference, if he has something he wants to say. I'll make it clear that I'll leave the discussion if there is anything other than civil discourse.

If he does this, then I'll listen. I suspect he would try to persuade me to settle. I'll tell him I'm not going to make any decisions; just there to listen. After he is done, I will tell him that I love him and would like to recover our marriage. But - I will also tell him that I don't want to be married to him so badly that I will allow him to continue hurting me financially. Calmly, I will tell him that anything I do from now on, I do to protect myself and my future, and that I'm hoping he will remember that. I will reiterate that the door remains open (given the conditions in the PBL.) Then I'll thank him for coming, and leave.

I've thought alot about this. I know it is "breaking Plan B", but I think it's imperative if there's ever to be any chance of recovery. Otherwise, he will take everything that happens from that point forward as a declaration of war. I know my H, and understand my WH. He's an addict. So, he will view my actions as war anyway, no matter what I say - I certainly can't stop him - but at least I will have spoken the words. At some point, perhaps years in the future, he may be able hear them for what they were.

But if I don't speak them, right now at this exact juncture, there is no opportunity for that to happen.

I am sincerely interested in feedback. And I'm sorry this is so long - but thought the whole picture is important. (But maybe it's not!! - I tend to overdo the details!)

Thank you.

- M

M-
I had a little bit of trouble following your post, but probably because I'm tired. While right now I can't do the numbers, I think the bottom line is that you don't want to declare war, but simply do what is right for you and let WH suffer the consequences of his adultry. And if the company is worth zero, then he gets zero. I'm in the same situation as you are. My business is struggling as well. In my case, my WH is trying to distance himself from it as far as possible. Of course he would want any profit there, but he doesn't want to assume any of the debt. I'm fighting because I feel that my business is struggling as a direct result of his A. I went through the BS state of depression and let things slide which has caused problems for me now.

And it's just my opinion, but I would not try to talk with him. On the day the movers came to clear our house, I tried to talk with WH but I quickly found out that you just cannot rationalize with an irrational wayward. Several posters here (Bugs, Mimi, Pm and others) tried to warn me against it but I didn't listen. I was sure I could reason with him, but I got more venom than I bargained for. I just got more hurt out of it. Just keep referring him to your Plan B letter and let your atty handle things.

And for what it is worth, my WH looked at the whole Plan B thing as a declaration of war.

Good luck on whatever you decide to do. Yours sounds like a complicated case that may drag on for several months. It's draining.

I have to agree; talking will do no good. It won't even look like you're trying to be fair; he'll consider it a trick, once he finds out what you are planning. I know you want to recover, but honestly, once he has hit rock bottom, whether or not you met with him for 30 minutes...he won't even remember it. Stay strong. In the end, you being hard and strong and smart will be the best for BOTH of you, and he may someday realize that.

Yes!


Double Yes!


If you do this, this WOULD be the way to do it, but you must go in with NO EXPECTATIONS. Chances are he won't "hear" a word and will spend the time "convincing" you that his way is the easier way... which may send you back to wavering and second guessing yourself.

But this is YOUR life and YOUR marriage. You know him (or at least the man he WAS) better than anyone. You can weigh the risks... you're in business, you know about that... and decide whether the risk to your sanity and resolution is worth it.

Just a quick note

Thanks to those who responded to my last post a couple of weeks ago.

The case conference was cancelled because my attorney filed a motion for a change of judge - long story, not important - so none of the above transpired.

I'm still in Plan B.

Oldest stepdaughter called and told me WH is talking about OW with sentences like "I'm not going to marry her tomorrow or anything" - meaning they're talking about marriage. She realized what she'd said as soon as she said it and apologized...which I accepted then turned the conversation to how she's doing with all this. No surprise from him; when he's in for a penny he's in for a pound. Still hurts though. Alot. (2 days of nothing but crying and lack of concentration at work.) But am trying to focus on the kids who are backing away from dad more and more; too painful and confusing for them.

Have been consumed with trying to save the company. Good news is that I have let myself take some time here and there to do some fun stuff. It's been so long I thought I'd forgotten how. But I haven't.

Have been completely off the boards so am way behind and will try to catch up on other folks' threads.

Hugs to all.

- M

Thanks for sharing even the detailed financial stuff, M.

I say this because my WH is D-ing me and I'm in the fact finding mode collecting bank statements, credit card backup, etc. And he, also, used our home equity line to piss away on OW and himself thinking I would not find out.

Like I wouldn't question him taking $33,000 off the line in October? When I asked where it went, he said it was "gone" -- "spent on DD's car and a few bills." DD'a used car for 16th b-day was $7,000. Where's the other $26,000 a-hole??? I may be a BS and may still not be thinking straight about A shock and year of pain, but I know that $26,000 does not just disappear!!!

He seems to think I will accept him paying house and equity line until kids move out, us selling the house, then splitting equity.
Fat chance there will even be ANY equity.

But...home equity line debt is huge -- even bigger than mortgage. And I don't want to be liable for half of that if I wait for a few years and sell. It needs to be cleaned up with D or will haunt me down the line. He needs to be held accountable for his financial stupidity.

So keep the details coming.

Holyheart:

I relate. Totally. Sad to say because I wish you weren't going through this.

I asked my attorney to subpoena the records for what appears to be the equity line and also to either subpoena or prepare to set up a deposition for the retirement info. Haven't heard anything back but then again haven't asked, so this thread will remind me to ping attorney tomorrow.

I didn't sign to open a home equity line - he tried to get me to - so if he did this he did it without my sig. We _may_ have some leverage there but I really don't know at this point.

Completely agree that all this has to get cleaned up during the divorce or it will haunt you. That's exactly how I feel. Not sure how well this works in practice but am sure gonna try.

I'll keep posting as I learn stuff.

Hang in there -

- M

Quick update - been gone for a while. Popped back up yesterday/today on other folks' threads.

Basically, nothing has happened on the D. Still waiting for results of subpoenas for financials. Still waiting on a reschedule for change of venue.

WH continues to observe Plan B. Works for me.

Sent him another letter (as required by Texas law) in lieu of a shareholders' meeting for the business. Asked him to sign and return. He hasn't. Also fine by me.

Have had several good days - sometimes 3 in a row - in the last three weeks. Progressing by fits and starts. Last three nights, though, bad dreams about WH/OW. Very little sleep. Hoping for better tonight.

But progressing, and that's what matters. I know I'll have hard times again once the whole D thing really gets under way. I'm so glad you're here - thanks.

Hope everyone is healing.

- M

You sound good Miriam, I'm glad. I'm truly glad. I have missed you.

I'm kinda just in the mood, that which does NOT kill us, makes us stronger and we are becoming stronger and stronger in spite of the screwed up circumstances and things put before us.

We keep learning that we can't control what others do, just ourselves.

This is by far a tough road for you, but you are truly doing an amazing job of growing and learning to take care of yourself. Your words are coming across more calmly or at peace. I'm glad.

Miriam

Thank you, Queenie. You have also clearly turned a corner...

I'm just doing "drive bys" right now because am traveling too much to stay up with the boards.

Got a question. WH and I still married so can do 08 taxes as "married". PBL had contact info for my accountant because I knew he wouldn't want to send me his info as in years past (I always did taxes). I also indicated in PBL that if he didn't want to use my accountant I would understand and asked him to propose someone else. Idea is that we'd both send her our stuff, she'd do the taxes and send the final out to each one of us to review and sign, then back to her for her sig and she'd file.

Well, he called last week and refused to send his stuff - what he wanted instead was for her to fill out my part and have me sign then send to him - he'd finish filling out the form, sign and send into IRS. She explained that she'd never agree to let something go from her office that wasn't the final filing.

And it should go without saying that I won't sign an IRS filing until I see the final form, either, and I'm certainly not sending up a half-completed electronic form with no control over it.

So I had IM email him and explain that, then ask for counterproposal (different accountant or different method) since I wouldn't agree to sign a half-done tax return.

Now, it's obvious he doesn't want me to see something: (a) filing status? I already know that he filled out his W4 as single at the beginning of the year, which suggests that he was planning this all year...amount coming back? Obviously alot...does he want to control where the refund goes? You can tell the IRS to deposit whatever it whichever account...something else?

Anyone else had this one pop up? If so, what was it in your case?

Incidentally, IM told him that if it was his intention that I not see the final filing before submission, to let him know and I'd file separately. He's already going to get all the deductions - I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and be done with it.

- M

Miriam --

FYI if you file under the status "married, filing seperatly" then whomever files first determines the use of standard or itemized deductions.

For example if you file first under MFS, and use the standard deduction -- then your husband must also file under MFS and he may NOT itemize...

What deductions would you or he have??

Just make sure that if you file together, that you get a refund CHECK and NOT funds electronically transferred into an account.

Made this mistake and WH took the whole refund. If it had been a check, we would have had to BOTH sign in order for it to be cashed.

As for refund, L told me today that I'm still entitled to half whether I want it now (through court order if he won't give voluntarily) or in the settlement.

Re: deductions - I haven't got any to speak of - the house mortgage loan is in his name only (although the house is in both names because I put in most of the cash to purchase it) - itemizing would make sense together, probably, but for me personally, not so much...although I haven't run the numbers both ways yet. After your input, Lexxy, I will.

Holyheart, good to hear that you're entitled to half regardless. I'll run that past the L - if that's the case then the "separate" thing makes even less sense because we'll both get less...but I just can't see signing off on a "joint" tax form when I don't see the final "joint" inputs and results.

Also your comment about check vs. epayment is another reason not to agree to let him do it.

M

Miriam:

Your PBL does not control your filing status.
Your W-4 means nothing to your filing status.
Your Wayward Husband wants all the cash.

File seperately. File electronically. And file today.

You have filed the taxes in the past, and you have a relationship with a preparer.

WH justs wants the cash. Your Attorney can subpeona his tax return later. You get to see everything that is on it.

If you have no real income, then it doesn't matter.

It you have a W-2 with some cash on it and withholding, then you insure that you get your own money back.

Your still married, but you are dealing with a wayward person. Who only has HIS own interests in mind. So, file seperately.

GET YOUR CASH.

Would the IRS/state get less cash overall if your filed jointly? Probably. But would you stake losing your $1,000 refund so that you MIGHT get an extra $300 from the IRS?

So, go to your accountant and file.

If you DO want to file with WH? Tell him to give ALL HIS STUFF TO YOUR EXISTING ACCOUNTANT. She can prepare ALL THE RETURNS, determine who gets what and how much, and even file a form with the IRS, electronically, depositing the refund in TWO accounts. Your portion in yours, and his in his. DO NOT SETTLE for anything less. You will just end up without your share of the refund, and fighting for it in the divorce.

BTW, I'm a CPA.

LG

LG:

Your last paragraph was the plan - it's exactly what I suggested, right down to the deposits into each account - and what he doesn't want to do. So much for that.

Re: getting my cash - I will probably end up owing money since I won't be sharing the deductions for the house, etc. and had withholdings coming out under assumption that we would be filing together - and I don't have any of the info re: mortgage (which he paid 100% of, but I paid into the household, too and most of the equity is mine) - that's the point; I'll end up taking the hit if I file separately - he'll take a hit, too, but not as much of one because he'll end up claiming 100% of the deductions for the mortgage, etc.

But he's had a week to respond and hasn't - and I'd about made up my mind to proceed, anyway, so will do it this weekend. Thanks for the input - and I agree about him just wanting the cash. I got that.

Just found my old thread. Had taken a couple of months off then started coming back ... or trying to come back ... got a lot of reading and catching up to do with folks and then will post some of my own. Good to be here and "see" you all again - missed everyone!!!

- M

Good to see you. How are YOU doing and what's happening on your end.

Queenie - gonna start a new thread in a sec - REALLY good to read your thread - back in a minute...

OK... can't wait.. I got my coffee, fire and a quiet house.

I got the coffee and the almost quiet house and a lake out back and frost - lotsa frost - but no fire. I'm jealous. :-) Back soon.

OK.... I'll go take my shower. I have decided to run my errands early so I can come home and fix something special for my H. He had to go into work today.

I bet the lake with frost is just amazing to view. Is it blue skies?

Be back too....

Miriam, I read your post and am so filled with sorrow and feel diminished by the relative paltriness of my own situation compared to yours. Like you, WW and I were married only 6-1/2 years, but Dday for me was only six weeks ago, and we've rushed headlong into separation (and possible D) just six months hence. I cannot fathom how someone could go through what you have, enduring knowledge of (and ongoing) the A for over a year, trying to keep a growing business afloat, and the rest. I don't think I could do it.

And despite the crushing blow to my emotional health and ego, I don't stand to lose all like you are facing. I guess it's true: If we were all to gather in a room together and throw our troubles into the middle, we'd likely pick ours up again rather than take up someone else's.

Your lesson to me is about dignity, taking the high road, and standing on principles. Thank you for that. Now if only I can adopt that same point of view...

You can. It's bloody hard, but you can.

Go to "No Longer Wavering" for the next bit. As you'll see, I didn't handle it well forever. :-)

doing sick kitty at this second - back (at new thread) in a few.