As bad as you want to see your son....avoid agreeing to a temporary custody arrangement of any kind IF and WHEN you do get in touch with her.

See is burying herself right now and even though you really really want to see your son...the long game here is every day she keeps your son from you bolsters your legal claim to primary custody.

Her attorney will likely tell her she has to give you visitation but, I'd expect her to try to manipulate an agreement from you for any visitation. Don't agree. Let her fear that you may keep your son from her (i.e.- give her no assurances you won't no matter how much she asks...you don't have to promise her anything). Like I said earlier...insist on 50-50 custody...temporarily. Nothing less...nothing more. Keep it simple. She will NOT agree and hopefully, just keep your son from you longer. Insist that every day she keeps your son just adds days to the time you get to keep your son, though, of course, at least you'll allow her to speak to him regularly.

Her attorney may insist she give you visitation anyway...even without an agreement. At that point...you keep custody and do the day care thing with your BIL/SIL again. You'll likely get lucky and have her barge in AGAIN with the cops to take your son back. Waywards are sooo entitled they think they can do anything.

Stay smart.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

p.s. - be really careful with maintaining your secrecy about this thread. Don't disclose personal details herein as there is a evil lurker that likes to destroy Betrayed Spouses by outing MB to their WS's. Also be careful in real life. Don't share this place with friends or relatives and secure your computer.

er....okay, whatever ex number was working with you. Is he able to see his kid?

Erich,

This really stinks. I've been in your shoes and understand how hard it is to have to wait.

The odds are really high that there will be something hammered out between the lawyers.

You MUST stick to your guns that 50/50 is the MINIMUM. No less than that and don't accept less than that. Less than that establishes a precedent and you don't want it to be less than 50/50.

You are different than the other exes she's had. YOU have help from us and you are the one who has been betrayed and are clearly the better parent.

Just be patient and know that justice will prevail and that you will get more time with your son.

Let her hang herself.

One thing the courts look for is which parent creates the least amount of conflict. Your ex will try to bait you. Come here first before you respond to any emails on her part.

But send her an email every day with a simple request:

WW,

I'd like to talk to DS tonight. Could you have him call me, please?

When will you let me see him?

erich.

Keep it that short and simple.

She's going to try to push your buttons into getting into arguments. Don't fall for it.

Ditto to what's been said about keeping e-mails short and to the point.

Hang in there, I know how bad you want to see your son. Your time will come!

Understand that your emails can be twisted by an attorney with an agenda.

I had a situation where my ex's attorney took one email response out of a looooong email chain and had someone do an "analysis" on it. His objective was to try to make me look unreasonable and impossible to deal with.

The "analyst" had only my email to look at. She didn't see the previous ranting emails the ex had sent to provoke an argument.

She only saw my response after I had had enough.

So that is how these folks twist reality. Don't arm them with long emails.

I won't budge on custody and visitation schedule. A judge will have to order anything different than what I've asked for.



My computers are secured with passwords. Now that she is moved out, there is no way she can get on them at all. Based on her actions, it seems that she has no idea about this thread... Can't be 100% sure though..

Yeah, he's able to see his daughter as usual. He told me on the phone the other day that according to their divorce decree, there is more that he can do that he hasn't been putting his foot down about but he had to "get his ducks in a row" before he could do more. Not sure what that means.

I'll probably call him again today and touch bases. See if his ducks are closer to being in a row.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement. It is getting harder each day that I don't have contact with my son without knowing when I'll get to talk to him again. Now I'm even more upset that WW won't even let me talk to my son on the phone. That's just cruel--there is no reason for that. Does she really have no heart?

I'm going to keep a level head though. Try to see the big picture.

I feel for you - being denied to visit or talk to your son is cruel for both of you.

Please listen to posts from Eph, MrW and Pom -


Let her dig her hole and follow your Atty advice and do not get manipulated for less than 50/50.

She is an old hand in manipulating her ex-husbands - be careful of divulging too much strategy to them. She is obviously working her plan also. She is attempting to replace you as her husband and father of your son. Long term wise - you are in the driver seat - just need to keep the emotions in check and play the cards at the right time.

You can do a wellness check on your son with the police.

It's not unreaonable to ask the police to check if your son is ok and to let them know that your wife took him and you have no idea if he's ok or not since you haven't been able to talk to him.

This is well within your rights. You can even go along with him. You may not be able to enter the home, but you can go.

Talk to the cops about it. I had one come to my home and talk to me for about 2 hours a few years ago when the ex wasn't letting me talk to the kids on the phone. This was just before I filed papers.

My ex use to say something to me which looks very silly in retrospect.

She said she was going to look into "what a typical visitation arrangement" was and that was what she was going to give me.

It's funny in hindsight, but she really thought that she could dictate when I could and couldn't see the kids.

You see, there is no such thing as a "typical" arrangement. The "typical" arrangement which these WWes want is to reduce you to an every other weekend dad.

I don't know what self respecting man lets himself get voluntarily reduced to an every other weekend arrangement, but that's what these wayward women want to reduce you to.

So don't fall for a lot of the lines. She wants you to be like her other exes.

Not so fast!

You're not them and they themselves are getting tired of her shenanigans.

Think about the wellness check. Call the non-emergency number. They'll likely send a cop to your home to talk to you about your situation and help out.

It's an idea. Others can tell me if I'm off my rocker or not. But there's nothing wrong with asking to know if your son is ok when you haven't been allowed to talk to him for a few days.

One more thing Eric...I always liek to say that words mean things. They do.

Just as folks have said do not discuss custody arrangements with her (let the attorneys do this), you need to speak the languae to her, to your son, to others...that is the truth.

What do I mean?

Well, let's talk about your house. That is referred to as "our home, the family home, your son's home, your wife's home, your home." And your wife's apartment? That is her apartment, Mom's apartment.

How about custody? Well, so far, the discussion between you two has been YOUR visitation rights. Why? She is the one leaving the marriage and the marital home. You should be referring to HER visitation rights. If you want custody, act like you have it already! Even if she has holding onto your son right now.

Some examples? When you emailed/texted her, a response like "you and I have discussed your visitation of our son. I have not kept him from you and you knew that. I have been and discussed with you about the flexibility of you having your visitation with our son." Stuff like that.

Of course, discussing it in that manner will PO your wife! Good!!!

But, please be careful how you discuss things. Always discuss and use words that favor you, your son and your family.

Can I ask a question? Why can the woman come snatch the kid at will but the father has to have a COURT ORDER just to see his own child?

Why can't Erich go get his son and bring him home?

Melody,

He could pull the "reverse snatch" and bring the child back home, but the cards are already stacked against him as a man. Aggressiveness plays very poorly for men.

So you're right, in principle, but the legal battle is a very delicate one for men and an aggressive move can backfire big time on a man.

We have stereotypes of violence to battle against. So aggressiveness backfires.

It's a very delicate situation and each move has to be calculated by a man and the benefits of every move has to be heavily weighed.

He can go get his son and bring him home. That is why she is hiding his son. Because he has just as much right to his son as her.

The issue now is to make himself to look good in front of the court, and make her look bad. By him being reasonable and not jerking his son around (while she is unreasonable and is jerking him around), the court will get a very good picture of this.

Added to this is the father-bias of many courts. Where they side with the woman first. So men need to take extra steps to make sure they are covered.

Which is why I advised using the proper terminology also...in order to set the stage for his legal battle.

Gotcha! It just all seems so very unfair.

Thankfully, I know that as of New Year's Eve, the kids were fine. A woman from my church was able to meet with my wife and kids briefly that night and she said that everyone was there and seemed to be ok.

If my wife doesn't let me contact our son for another few days, I'll consider the police check idea again. I just don't want any dramas for the kids. I suppose as long as it was one officer and he didn't try to beat their door in like they did at my house when my wife had called the cops on me, it would be ok.

I'm hoping to hear from my wife today after she talks to her attorney. I don't know what time her appointment is. I may not hear anything either way... Who knows.

That sounds like great advice to me. I wish I had done this all along. But for sure, I will speak in these terms from now on. Thanks for the advice!!!

Ex-H1 just called me and was concerned about what may be going on at WW's apartment. He said that his daughter was acting strange so he asked her what was wrong. She said that it was something that was going on at the apartment but she wouldn't tell him what it was.

She did say that WW's OM was at the apartment for New Years and that they played boardgames.

Ex-H1 is very worried. He asked for OM's name and contact info. Ex-H1 knows someone at the prosecutor's office that can run background checks or something like that. He's going to try to find out what he can about the guy.

I looked through all the public records for the county OM lives in and I didn't find anything negative, but I think OM lived across the state border for a while and I don't have access to those publice records because they require an annual subscription...

Now I'm a little freaked out. Should I call child protective services or have ex-H1 call them since his daughter was the one who said that?

I just called exH1 and asked him if he felt we should call child protective services and he said that they are a joke.

He said that his daughter wasn't scared or anything. He felt that his daughter was just depressed about being dropped back off at WW's apartment because daughter is learning that WW has been lying all along and it's all coming out now.....

Step-daughter was told by WW that there was no other man. Step-daughter even asked WW about OM by name and WW denied it... Now that OM is spending time at the apartment and stepping in as the new Dad, she is really confused by WW's lies... I feel so sorry for my step-daughter. She shouldn't have to go through this crap. This could affect her for life.

I don't know if it works in MO, but in other states you can have an order to keep OM away from your children. I would check with your lawyer about that.